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[INSPRATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi I'm Steve Adubato.

Alright, you ready?

Everything you've ever wanted or needed to know about Abraham Lincoln.

People think they know him, right, as one of the greatest presidents ever, but this gentleman really knows him.

He is Dr. Louis Masur, who is a Board of Governors Professor of American Studies and History at Rutgers University, my Alma Mater.

Hey, what do we think we know about Lincoln, but isn't actually accurate?

- Oh, it's such a tough question.

I mean, there's lots of misconceptions.

There's also lots of different opinions, right?

I mean you and I may feel he's a beloved figure, the greatest president ever, not everybody necessarily believes that.

So I think there's lots of misconceptions about Lincoln that are out there whether-- - What made him a great leader?

- Pardon me?

- As a student of leadership I'm always fascinated.

What may Lincoln a great leader?

- Well, I think a few different things.

I think a few different things.

I mean, one is, he understood very early on that education was the path to success.

Think about his background.

Think about his life.

What were the chances for this kid, an illiterate father born on a dirt floor cabin.

He even said in 1860 that his education was defective, but he was a believer in what we would call the American dream.

And he understood that the path of upward mobility led through ideas, led through thinking and his entire life exemplified that.

I think that's one of the elements, that made him a remarkable person and a great leader.

- Professor, by the way, you were featured in the documentary on Lincoln, where did we see that documentary, Louis?

- It was originally aired on CNN and it's now actually available on HBO and HBO Max, I believe.

- It's awesome and, by the way, Dr. Masur is terrific in it.

"Lincoln's Hundred Days", your book, first book to tell the full story of the period from September 19, excuse me, 1862, to January, 1863.

So the Emancipation Proclamation, people think they understand what it was.

Free the slaves, first of all that's not exactly true because what Lincoln originally proposed in the Emancipation Proclamation, and what the Proclamation really was in the end, two totally different documents.

- Absolutely fantastic that you bring that up because again, here's one of those misconceptions.

I mean people fundamentally misunderstand the Emancipation Proclamation.

And now we live in a moment, where lots of people have moved away from the idea of Lincoln freeing the slaves, but here's the essence, I think, of Lincoln's greatness.

We can watch him as he changed his mind over time.

This is a man who, in 1854, raised questions about the political and social equality of blacks, but he understands that times change.

He thinks, that comes back to education, hard about the issues of the day.

He decides to issue a preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, September 22nd, 1862, announcing in a 100 days, he's going to free the slaves.

But here too there's change over time.

And that document evolves into an even more radical document, if you will, one that not only free the slaves, but authorizes the enlistment of black soldiers.

This was an astonishing idea.

Only a few months earlier Lincoln said that's crazy.

How can we enlist black soldiers?

Black men could never fight.

And if they did, it would lead to all kinds of depredations.

No, no, no, he understood the significance of black men fighting for their own freedom and contributing to the Union cause.

- By the way the documentary I mentioned, thank you team for putting it up, it's called "Lincoln: Divided We Stand", "Lincoln: Divided We Stand".

Check it out, Google it, it'll come up.

Hey Louis, I gotta follow up on something.

In the other literature I've read it, again, as a student of leadership, check out our other program on the commercial side "Lessons in Leadership" I do with my terrific colleague, our Executive Producer and co-anchor Mary Gamba.

We talk about this all the time.

Lincoln as a leader, it's complex in this sense, there are those who argue in other books that Lincoln's obsession was really not simply about freeing the slaves, but also about keeping the Union together and that the civil war and all the deaths connected to the civil war, some argue, could have been avoided if Lincoln was not so committed to fighting the south on this and getting Southern states not to succeed or secede from the nation, but just keep the Union together.

And it wasn't simply about slavery.

- Yeah this is an old argument, right?

Going back earlier in the 20th century, the idea of a blundering generation, the idea that the war could have been avoided, but most historians will tell you we're not philosophers.

And we don't deal with issues of inevitability.

And there's all kinds of contingency related to the start of the war, related to the fighting of the war, any given moment things could have gone a different way.

The important point is Lincoln understood that he was not going to allow this nation to be destroyed by secession which he considered to be unconstitutional, an ingenious sophism, the essence of anarchy he called it.

And he was going to do whatever it took to try and preserve this nation, the last great hope of earth, because it was the greatest experiment on democracy that had ever occurred.

So, there you have it.

And to lay at his feet, I mean look, he understood the toll and realized this as well, right?

We live life forward, we understand the backward.

No one in April of 1861 thought the war was going to last 4 years and end up taking over 750,000 lives.

But that is what happened.

But in the end, the nation was preserved and slavery was abolished.

- Talk about Lincoln's depression.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, here's another example of something that I think he overcame, another example I think of his leadership.

You know, he suffered from what was called melancholy in the 19th century.

We might call it depression.

They called it the hypos.

He had the blues, he would get terribly sad, withdrawn.

There were moments where his friends even thought he was suicidal.

One could retreat and fall apart or one can try and take the kinds of measures to help you get outside yourself.

This is the other side of Lincoln, Lincoln the storyteller, (clears throat) excuse me, Lincoln the jokester.

He had an incredible self-deprecating sense of humor.

You know, the other thing about his depression and his melancholy, he was not an attractive man.

- And he made fun of his appearance.

- Yes, yes.

And Walt Whitman saw him, he wrote a letter home to his mother in which he said, he's like a hoosier Michelangelo.

So awful-ugly he's nearly beautiful.

Lincoln took that, he packaged it, he turned it into a set of skills, here too leadership skills, I think Steve, by which people liked him.

It's a great skill to have as a politician.

You know, one example, famously, in the debate with Stephen Douglas, he said, my opponent-- - The Lincoln-Douglas debates, the many, many The Lincoln-Douglas debates.

- Yes, exactly.

He says, "My opponent accuses me of being two-faced.

If I was two-faced, why would I be wearing the one that I have?"

I mean it's just wonderful and it's brilliant.

And he used storytelling to win over juries and he used storytelling didactically as well.

I wanna ask real quick, Mary Lincoln.

A lot has been written and said about her, their relationship and how complex she was.

How did she influence Lincoln's presidency and him as a person?

- It's such an important question.

And Mary Todd Lincoln's reputation has changed over time.

And in some ways has changed for the better.

You know, Lincoln secretaries couldn't stand her.

They saw her as sort of, you know, a hellcat.

She was demanding, she was loud, she was bossy.

She stepped outside of the traditional role ascribed to women in the 19th century.

And of course later in life, Robert Todd Lincoln, for a variety of reasons, actually had her committed to an asylum.

So her reputation over time had been as if she was a crazy person.

And as if they had an awful marriage and an awful relationship.

I think that view has been revised, it has been revised correctly.

You can see some of it actually in the film, "Lincoln", Steven Spielberg's film in which Sally Field plays Mary Todd Lincoln and plays her as a much more sympathetic character.

I think Mary Todd was ambitious.

She wanted her husband to be president.

Most historians agree she helped him along this line of pushing him toward anti-slavery.

And there's no question that they had a loving companionate marriage.

They fought, but they loved each other.

Help us on this.

In your new book, the book is "The Sum of Our Dreams", all right, first of all what is the primary message in it?

But then I want to come back to Lincoln and how divided our country was in the 1860s, connected to the civil war.

And how divided we are going into 2022.

Please, Louis.

- "The Sum of Our Dreams", the title comes from a speech that Barack Obama gave about the American dream in which he said America is the sum of our dreams.

And I think that that is the tying theme of American history.

What I try to do in that book is, in one volume, sort of, tell these conflicting stories of American history.

The ways in which American history has been redemptive, but, let's face it, parts of it have also been reprehensible.

James Baldwin spoke movingly about these dualities in American history.

And so the book tries to tell that story, and there are many, many figures in American history who have embraced this idea that at essence that's what this nation is about.

You and I spoke previously about Bruce Springsteen.

Springsteen famously said that all of his life's work has been measuring the distance between the American dream and American reality.

Well to take us back to Lincoln, Lincoln too, of course, is the great progenitor of this idea that anyone could rise, that this is what made America special, that you could shed burdens off of your shoulders.

And if you worked hard and got an education you could get ahead.

It's one of the elements that led him to want to free the slaves, of course.

I mean, because it was the exact opposite of the idea of free labor, of the sort of possibilities that are created in America.

So I think that that's the story, the large story I try to tell from beginning to the present, of those kinds of battles over the meaning of the American dream.

- Professor, let me complicate it for you, okay?

- Sure, please do.

- That's what I got from my Rutgers education, right?

In the school of communication and media studies, to raise questions.

Here's the question.

January 6th, the insurrection at the Capitol, the red and the blue nature of our states as if we're two different countries.

Has there ever been a time in American history as a historian, has there ever been a time where we've been this polarized, this divided, as if we are not the United States of America, that January 6th showed us an aspect, an ugly horrible aspect of who we are, who some of us are, and how some, including former Presidents who don't even acknowledge that there was anything wrong with that and call those people patriots and great Americans.

Meaning, how divided are we, Louis?

- Well, clearly we're very divided and it's impossible to predict the future.

You know one of the things about the civil war is the recognition that in many ways it's not over, right?

Some of those issues that we may have thought were resolved by the civil war, are not resolved, are open again, whether it's questions of race, questions of state's rights.

I mean, the legacy of the civil war, the arguments over the meaning of the civil war continue down to today.

And this is part of that-- - Including with COVID.

You don't tell me what to do.

Literally, we are two nations.

New Jersey is one, Alabama is another.

Meaning COVID rates are totally different, responsiveness to mass, responsiveness or lack thereof to vaccines, totally different.

Based largely on geography, political ideology and people's beliefs.

I'm not saying we're about to have another civil war, but are we having a civil war without the civil war?

- Well, in some ways we are.

For me the issue and it comes back to Lincoln, it comes back to politics, it comes back to our founding fathers.

You know, you ask about other moments of extreme partisanship.

My goodness!

I mean, look at the battles between Jefferson and Hamilton.

Look at the battles that were raged in the 1790s.

Lincoln too, of course.

I mean, the difference is this nation has seemed always to find a way to compromise, to make deals.

Politicians have changed their minds.

You know, - Today Lou, today?

- That's my point, Steve.

My point is this to me is what the change is.

So it's not that we haven't before had major crises that seemed to put us on the brink.

It's that at this moment, there is such a hardening of positions and such a refusal on the part of very reasonable people to sort of find room for compromise.

That that to me is what's most terrifying.

- It is scary.

It is scary and again my job is not to, I don't do commentary, I ask questions, we have discussions.

But, boy, when people excuse and somehow paint a different history of January 6th, when the Capitol and members of Congress and law enforcement professionals, love the blue, really, when they're attacked in the name of, "it's my right to protest", and storm the Capitol.

Listen, I don't even know what the discussion's about, but, go ahead, Lou.

I'll get off my soap box, go ahead.

- No, no, listen, these are important questions and I want to bring it back.

I'll bring it back to Lincoln, back to this discussion about leadership, about changing your mind, about admitting you're wrong.

So let me just leave you with this.

There's a moment in the war, where Lincoln who takes a hands-on -- - Civil War.

- In the Civil War, thank you.

Where Lincoln takes a hands-on approach as commander-in-chief, to thinking about military strategy.

Grant is about to launch the assault on Vicksburg.

Lincoln thinks Grant ought to go one way, Grant thinks he should go the other way.

In the end Grant goes ahead and does the attack the way in which he thought, and afterwards Lincoln writes Grant the letter, and do you know what he says to him?

He reviews their disagreement, and I'm gonna read you the last line.

He says, "I now wish to make the personal acknowledgement that you were right and I was wrong".

Think about that.

The President of the United States and the commander-in-chief writing to one of his Generals, saying you were right, I was wrong.

That's what we need more of in America today.

- Well said.

That's leadership by the way, not just sticking to your, quote, guns, regardless of the evidence, regardless of other perspectives, that's just stubbornness.

Hey Louis, thank you so much.

Professor Louis Masur, who is a Board Of Governors Professor of American Studies and History at Rutgers University.

Thank you, Louis.

- Thank you.

Great seeing you again.

- Great conversation.

We'll be right back, right after this.

(grand music) - [Announcer] To watch more State of Affairs with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- We are honored once again to be joined by Reverend Dr. William Howard.

This is part of our ongoing discussion on Powering Equity and Social Justice, New Jersey leaders Who Matter.

Reverend Dr. Howard.

It's an honor to have you with us.

Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Last time you joined us.

It was actually at the New Jersey Performing Arts Center.

We had an in-depth conversation many years ago, your background in human rights and civil rights in the religious community, the church community, it spans many decades.

Let me ask you this, the quote human condition and where we are now, particularly in light of COVID.

How much progress have we made as it relates to social justice and those who have been persecuted for way too long.

What kind of progress have we made and where do we need to go?

- I think we've moved the chairs around on the deck quite a bit Steve, I think - On the Titanic.

(Laughing) - I, I grew up in Jim Crow, Georgia, and I can tell you there're opportunities and mobilities that I could not have imagined as a child.

So many things have quote, unquote changed, but what we face in our country is certain structural realities, certain underpinnings, a framework that is hardly ever discussed in the public square.

And Isabel Wilkerson and her more recent book Caste really puts it into the context that I think most Americans should digest.

And, you know, black history began to be observed Carter G. Woodson, as you know initiated this kind of reflection on black history.

And it was meant to lift the esteem of African Americans.

If they could just know more about their own contribution to the country, they would feel better about themselves.

But the truth is, a knowledge of this history of a people who were here over a century and a half before The Declaration of Independence is a gateway to understanding America itself.

And until we come to terms with the structural underpinnings, as I call it, we're never going to achieve what I believe is possible in terms of the nation's potential, because we continue to labor in what Wilkerson calls a Caste system.

And so I think, yes, we've moved the chairs around.

There're, things happening today across racial lines that were unimaginable 50 years ago to be sure.

- But excuse me for interrupting.

But president Obama, Barack Obama becoming president is great progress.

But for those who say 'you see', it's way more complicated than that, is it not Reverend?

- Absolutely.

Look you recall that when president Obama was elected, there was, even when Mayor Booker was elected, they were saying we're in a post-racial America.

And that's a hopeful idea post-racial America.

But what we see today in terms of open expression of racism and rebellion against the, the, the government itself actually was precipitated by the election of Barack Obama.

Many people want to think of this as a Trump phenomenon, but if you recall, they burned president Obama in effigy.

And you had the, the, the, the unleashing of a kind of reaction that was rejecting the notion of the diversity or pluralism that was rising to the surface.

And in that case- - But he also wasn't even an American.

- Pardon me.

- That he also, for some believed - Oh of course.

- And that the former president Donald Trump propagated at the time wasn't even born in the United States, wasn't even a citizen to de-legitimize him and his presidency and everything it represented.

- And the fact that Trump said that is only part of the picture.

The picture is there were people believing that and adding credence to this notion despite evidence to the contrary.

So I think, I think, yes, you'd have to say African-Americans moving in the society in every aspect of the society in science and entertainment, in academics.

So you you just name all the different business and so on, but there is an undertow.

There is a framework that the American public needs to know more about and resolve to rise above it.

- Your historical experience and perspective is so valuable here, Reverend Dr. Howard So in Georgia, back in the day, if you will, you were involved in voter education, voter awareness.

The changes in voter laws across this country, whether it's Texas or Alabama or other places, give us a synopsis as to why, listen saying you are, who you say you are, is one thing.

That's one thing beyond that, the efforts to change voting laws post the 2020 election in certain states really across this country in many ways, says what to you about the issue of race and the changing face of America.

- I would say, first of all, you remember the first edition of the voting rights act was focused on a region of the country.

There were no Western states, no Northern states, et cetera, in the focus of The Voting Rights Act.

But now we see that voting restrictions and manipulations happen across the country.

And if we have a proper voting rights law, it has to apply to the entire United States.

And think about this.

I read an article today in the Star-Ledger, that talked about how there were like five seats If they could only be flipped in the Congress, Republicans would take control.

And there is a plan, afoot.

Not to register more, more voters in those districts, but to redistrict them and cut them up so that the opposing party can in fact have the majority.

We don't have democracy in the country.

This is a thing that we have to contend with and democracy in my view, having been around the world and seeing other models is the hope for mankind, but we must have informed citizens participating in this system.

And when you see so many people ill advised and willing to go with a rumor and myth, even around the pandemic.

Our democracy is in fragile hands.

- Yeah.

Reverend Dr. William Howard perspective, history, experience, expertise, compassion for so many people.

This is part of a series called New Jersey.

He's a national leader happens to be based at New Jersey roots, powering equity and social justice.

Our good friend, Rick Thigpen actually brought us together and actually look at the interview we did on steveadubato.org with Rick that kicked off this series.

Reverend Dr. Howard, I want to thank you for joining us.

You honor us by your presence.

Thank you so much.

- Thank you.

- I'm Steve Adubato.

Thank you so much for joining us.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] State of Affairs with Steve Adubato Is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Valley Bank.

PSE&G.

Atlantic Health System.

Summit Health Prudential Financial.

The New Jersey Board of Public Utilities, Clean Energy program.

Johnson & Johnson.

MD Advantage Insurance Company.

And by NJ Best, New Jersey's five-two-nine college savings plan.

Promotional support provided by Insider NJ.

And by New Jersey Monthly.

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