Narrator> A production of the South Carolina Educational Television Network.

♪ opening music ♪ ♪ Tom Fowler> Tonight on "Carolina Journal," the Democratic and Republican candidates for Governor.

Where do they stand on the issues they all say?

This tonight on "Carolina Journal."

Good evening everyone.

I'm Tom Fowler.

Earlier this year, Carroll Campbell was on "Carolina Journal" for a half hour.

So was Mike Daniel.

I asked them key issues of the state, their opinion, their thoughts on those issues, although both are coming up to face each other in two debates in October, we thought this was a good chance, as we are on this Labor Day, entering the last leg of the campaign, for both candidates to talk again about the issues from those tapes.

Let's listen.

Basically, it's a matter of putting into practice what I have been taught, experience, the knowledge, that I have gained, not only as a father, as, my military experience, in Germany and two years, rearing three children.

My public service in the House of Representatives, and I think particularly for the last three years as lieutenant governor at the executive level.

I've gained the knowledge, I've gained the insight as to what it takes to be governor.

And I think I know the direction in which this state needs to be taken.

Tom Fowler> What direction is that?

I think we're going to have to concentrate on more, economic development.

We've laid a tremendous foundation in our educational program, but it's only a foundation, something that we've got to build on.

And I think the next governor of this state has got to make a real commitment to devote the majority of his time to economic development.

Tom, I think it comes back to the fact that when I first went into politics, it was by accident.

I stayed in part time in the State House and Senate, and I didn't go to Washington to, serve 20 years and get a federal retirement.

I went up there to try to do some things.

I have done as much as I think I can do in the minority.

I've been a major part, obviously, in the Reagan effort, in his campaigns and in the legislative program.

Particularly in 1981, 82.

And as we have tried to turn back to the States, some of the responsibilities and their control over their own future, then I think that it is almost logical that if that's what you're interested in and the state, that you represent is one that you love, that you want to go back and try to move your state forward, to take advantage of some of the things you've helped to bring about in Washington and try to improve things for the people that you represent at home.

And that's what I see this as, an opportunity to come back to serve.

I'm not looking for a career in any position.

And if I can't be of service, then it's time to quit.

Tom Fowler> Talk a bit about what you see as the critical problems for South Carolina facing the next governor and state.

Critical problems with South Carolina facing the next governor, of paying for all the new programs and the things that this governor has implemented.

The Education Improvement Act is something that was probably long overdue.

It is only an add on, though, and I think people need to recog Finance Act came out of the, Edwards Administration.

I happened to be working in that administration.

Roger Kirk, helped to draft that.

It was the first thing that was done to try to improve education.

Then, of course, we did the Educator Improvement Act.

And, as we did these things to improve teachers, to improve opportunities for young people, cut down the size of the classroom, then the Education Improvement Act, the big one, essentially funded teachers, and it put in a formula for funding that brings them up to the southeastern average, hopefully to help us get and keep, qualified teachers.

But these things cost money and a penny sales tax it was put on to pay for it, was put on at a time that, this state had a surplus, rather substantial surplus.

And the legislature, ran on a spending spree.

And when they did, they spent an awful lot of money in areas that might have been, better not spend as much on.

And now we're in a little bit of a slack time.

They're talking about having to cut things.

They haven't been able to fund the, education programs that they want to fund, and they all of a sudden are facing reality.

The reality is this, that we have the highest taxes per capita in the southeast, in the state and local taxes combined.

Our gasoline taxes are higher than our sister states, therefore, we're losing business.

As we look at these things, if you're going to continue to improve, and the only road you're going to follow is one of increasing taxes, you're going to hit a point of diminishing return.

We are now doing that.

The projections for South Carolina, are not as bright as our sister states.

Our growth is not as strong.

We're losing industries such as Fort Howard Paper across to Georgia, selling these out of Greenville, over to North Carolina because of the business climate in this state.

We need to improve that.

If we'll improve our business climate, if we, in fact, can get South Carolina competitive, in the fields of taxes and insurance costs.

We're also very much out of line in the cost of insurance, particularly liability insurance.

As we recognize these problems and correct them.

We have the climate.

We have the people.

We have the geographic location on the East Coast to be a tremendously prosperous area.

We are growing in tourism.

Our manufacturing has been shrinking, and we must recognize the causes and cure them.

Then we have to go out and sell this state.

And you have to sell it, to the expanding companies.

You have to try to sell it in the state.

Within South Carolina particularly.

We've got to pay attention to our existing companies.

Too often we want to go to Japan and Germany and bring in a new company and not worry about a company that's down here in South Carolina looking for help in its own expansion.

They create jobs, too.

Those are the kinds of things that need to be done in this state.

Tom, there is no way that you're going to have any type of comprehensive industrial deve unless we keep in place the progress that we have made with our educational programs.

Education and economic development are like a hand in glove situation.

You cannot separate the two.

What I'm afraid of is that a lot of people think that we've done everything that we possibly can for education, which is not the case.

The only thing we've done is laid the foundation.

Now we have to build on that foundation.

We have to add to the Educational Improvement Act.

But education is more than just K through 12.

It's our vocational training.

It's our technical educational training.

It's our institutions of higher learning.

We've got to bring them more into this partnership.

With education, with the business community and with government.

If we're going to have a true economic strategy for the 21st century.

Let me tell you, the governor, if you want to look at him, is the president of a company, has 3.2 million stockholders.

That's the citizens of the state.

He answers to those people.

And, of course, what we did, with the Educational Improvement Act, Governor Riley and Charlie Williams and Mrs.

Riley and everybody had anything to do with helping passage of the E.I.A.

We went to the people and we asked the people, the people are proud of that, Tom.

They want to see, the end to, the second best and third right.

They don't want that any longer.

And the next governor of this state has got to make a commitment that we will not retreat one iota, one iota from any of the progress that we've made, particular with our educational system.

Insofar as the, development board, I would like to see, of course, and this would require legislation.

And this again, I think that, requires somebody that has a knowledge of the legislative process, to upgrade our state development board into, say, a Department of Commerce with particular emphasis, and here, again, it goes back to experience, the three trade missions that I've led abroad.

I've gotten to know these, the people and the foreign countries, particularly in the Far East, on a first name basis, the governmental legal as well as, the industrial leaders there and which is very, very important.

And, certainly we need to upgrade our state development board with special emphasis in the, international department.

We need people that are bilingual.

We need to, to look at areas that, products in this state, of course, can be exported, particular our agricultural products.

I think more emphasis needs to be placed there.

And, of course, more emphasis needs to be placed on the businesses that we already have in South Carolina, and of course, saving the jobs that we already have.

These are things that I've worked very closely with, for the past three years.

And I feel like I know what I'm talking about.

The General Assembly is a unique creature.

It's a creature of the people.

There are 170 personalities, Tom, that composed the General Assembly and the governor.

His responsibility is to work within that group in order to get good legislation through.

You got to know those personalities.

You got to know the committee system.

And a lot of times, it's just as important, to be able to stop bad legislation as it is to get good legislation through.

Tom Fowler> What about the role of the governor in the budgetary process?

It's a enormously complex process now, very expensive.

All the services of the state funded out of this process.

What would you see your role as governor in this process?

From the beginning of a budget cycle until the time when that governor signs off on the budget?

Lt.

Governor Mike Daniel> Well, as you well know, the governor sits and, is chairman of the, Budget Control Board.

The budgetary process is something that I'm going to deal with personally.

In fact, I'm going to make some very definite recommendations, in a very short while.

I do feel like the budgetary process has got to be altered, to some degree.

Quite honestly, I would not mind seeing the Budget Control Board expanded to include, other members of the General Assembly, possibly the speaker of the House and the lieutenant governor, giving additional role, to those offices.

To sit on the Budget Control Board.

I would like to see, of course, the Senate Finance Committee and the House Ways and Means Committee sit together to write the budget.

I feel like that there are too many bites of the apple being taken now during that budgetary process.

I think it's entirely too lengthy.

I think that it's too cumbersome.

I think that we could not only shorten the legislative session if we followed, these recommendations, but at the same time, I think that we could save, millions of dollars, during that process.

But it, the budgetary process has got to be changed to some degree.

Tom Fowler> That process funded by taxes, by and large, and other revenues.

But, talking about taxes, if people would say that this state is overtaxed, we're one of the most heavily tax states in the country, what's your position on that?

And if you were talking about rolling back any taxes, where would you start first?

Well, if I could roll back any taxes at this present time, I'd take it off of food immediately.

But of course, you know, it is nice to say that, but then you've got to find the revenue, to make up that difference.

But that would be one area that, I would like to closely look at to see if we could find additional revenue so that we could eliminate the sales tax on food.

And of course, there are, studies being made now to find additional sources of revenue.

Tom Fowler> What taxes recently do you feel are not necessary?

And what would your stance be toward the taxes that are currently on the books?

Carroll Campbell> Question is not a matter of what's necessary and not necessary.

It is where you stand, comparatively speaking.

And in the southeast, we stand at the highest in our taxes.

That doesn't mean that, you can't go out and justify every program.

You have to low in government.

This is the thing.

Everybody comes in and says, cut the budget, balanced the budget just like the federal government, but don't cut my program because it's special.

Well, we need to stop funding every program in South Carolina from last year's level.

We need to examine every program periodically to determine whether it ought to be cut out completely, cut back, or revamped or merged with another program.

We're not doing that.

We really should be doing more of that as we look at the taxes themselves.

We have to look at what the return is.

Now, if we continue.

Let me give you a for instance.

We're a 13 cent gasoline tax and we're debating going to 15 cents.

We could be almost double the tax on gasoline as one of our sister states.

Now, what is that going to do to people that are traveling through South Carolina?

Is it, in fact, going to increase the revenue that we anticipate, or is it going to cause people traveling through to buy gas elsewhere?

That is something that we start, we need to start looking at, and we need to be more innovative in our funding approaches.

We need to look at the tax burden, borne not only by our citizens, but our businesses to see whether, in fact, we are doing the job.

If people are keeping money out of here, if businesses are moving across the line because of your taxes, sometimes you need to make adjustments and those adjustments bring in more revenue.

You don't need to look at each budget of each agency separately.

Sometimes you can look at the entirety.

What are the economic development agencies?

What are the human service agencies?

What are welfare?

What are health?

Look at them.

Look at the areas of overlap in this process.

And as you look at them you find duplication.

Then you will find areas that you can combine and cut.

It's not going to be easy.

Every agency guard it's turf.

They fight awfully hard for the same thing.

But if we will start looking at things this way with an idea of efficiency, we can in fact bring about savings.

Tom Fowler> Every month, the jobs are lost.

What about this?

What about that trend?

And can anything be done to turn that trend around, of the loss of jobs?

The the textile industry is in transition.

It is being buffeted, right now, as you know, by imports.

We have, also the problem of the dollar being out of kilter in the international currency market.

But, beyond that, the textile industry is modernizing.

It's one of our better industries.

It's made the effort in America.

It's not like the steel industry or others who just sat back.

They have invested the money.

But as they modernize, skills are replaced.

Jobs are no longer required.

It becomes less labor intensive.

It becomes more capital intensive.

South Carolina will have a textile industry.

It will be strong.

The jobs will require different skills, some higher skills.

The pay will be more, but, we won't employ as many people.

So we need to diversify.

We need to have other industries come in.

We need to support our textile industry as much as we can and diversify at the same time.

Tom Fowler> What about the people who lose the jobs?

People who have been working 20, 30 years?

What can be done to make their, remainder of their careers productive in this state, but yet not add to the state's expense?

Well, that comes in to the retraining.

And there you ought to build your technical schools into, and we have in many instances, to certain federal partnership programs, Job Training Partnership Act, to teach people, to make a transition, to teach them new skills.

But we also need to do something else in technical schools, and that is to match the technical schools to the needs of the industry coming in, and have the flexibility to change in the programs to meet those needs coming in.

Be the information society needs or be they, industrialized, industry needs.

But the people that are coming out of one industry and making that transition should have the support facilities available to them.

And if I were governor tomorrow, I would certainly marshal the other governors around this country, because I do not feel that the governor of Nevada, the governor of the state of Washington, really understand the significance, of the role the textile industry plays in the United States.

It affects every major industry, from the steel industry to the housing industry to the automobile industry.

And, I would certainly, as I said, Marshal, the other governors, to make them understand the significant role that the textile industry has.

Of course, the textile industry will never be as labor is intens the past.

We'll always have a textile industry, but I think it's going to be more specialized type of industry.

Certainly, greater higher technology, will be, forthcoming within the tech, in fact, it is already one of the, high tech industries of this nation today.

But I think that the main thing that the governor of this state can do is to make sure that there are other governors, around this nation, understand the role of the textile industry and how much they need it.

It's not a southern province, not a South Carolina problem.

It's a national problem.

Tom Fowler> What about those people who are making a transition from a textile career, and that career being ended, to something else?

What about those people now?

What about those people in the next four years?

Lt.

Governor Mike Daniel> This is the reason that, Governor Riley has addressed, as you well know, the problem of training and retraining.

And this is something that the next, governor of the state of South Carolina has got to follow through to make sure that there's a more of a coordinated effort.

Between our training systems so that these people, get the training that they need to take the new jobs.

But they're, again, the next governor of the state has got to make sure he gets these jobs into this state so that these people can be trained for a job.

Tom Fowler> Turning issues a little bit here.

The corrections issue, the issue of crime and punishment in this state is as big this year as it ever has been, with the state under great pressure to provide additional housing for the prisoners.

The state, under pressure from citizens groups to toughen laws against violent criminals, and all of this creating a very complex problem.

Cost money to provide the housing and you have to try to, eliminate the crime by some means.

Let's start off talking about this issue by the issue of housing the prisoners.

What are your positions on that?

What should the state do?

What would you, as governor, do to provide the housing for additional prisoners in this state?

Or should we provide housing?

Well, certainly we have to do that.

But I think that one of the areas that we can look at and that I would look at immediately, of course, is the privatization of our prisons, particular minimum security prisons.

I firmly believe that, in many areas, that the private sector can do it a heck of a lot cheaper, than government can do it.

But at the same time, I would like to see a regional concept of minimum se Minimum security prisons are certainly a lot cheaper to build than maximum security prisons and cheaper to operate, the maximum security prisons.

But, as you said, it's a much more complex situation and problem than just building prisons.

I intend to come out with a proposal, that will be looking at things like, pre sentencing investigations, even Cave says today that there're approximately 25 percent of the inmates that are incarcerated today, that probably should not be at C.C.I.

right now.

These are some of the, I think avenues, that would help eliminate and alleviate the overcrowding situation that we have now in our penal institutions.

Tom Fowler> What's the difference as far as the state, other than cost, privatization of prisons in the state, what benefits and what problems would you see from that?

Lt.

Governor Mike Daniel> Well, of course, any contract and I have stated this in my proposal about privatization that, any contract that the state entered into, our local government entered into with, the private sector, that it be reviewed completely by the attorney general to make sure that the people's interests are protected.

But we do have a problem.

And this, has not been answered as to the liability situation, who would still be responsible?

For instance, if a prisoner, ran into a private citizen, What liability, where does the liability lay?

And, these are the, I think, questions that have to be answered before, any contract is entered into, either by the state government or by the local government?

Carroll Campbell> First, I think that you should have more determinate sentencing.

And second, I think that, as you look at the use of parole, you should use parole only for a short term, getting people out of prison.

This thing is telling people they're sentenced to 25 years in jail, and then they served four years, and they're out on the street, but they're still clogging it up is not the deterrent that an absolute ten year sentence would be.

People worry about that.

And we have to put the deterrent factor back into sentencing.

I think that's an essential.

Second, I think that we need to look at the use of probation in a different sense.

Today, we don't have a, what we would call an intense probation.

That is where someone can literally be confined, between certain hours to house arrest.

Other states have done that, particularly, I believe New Mexico has gone into that and several others.

They have the ability to monitor a person at home, but that person has to consent.

In other words, if you were sentence, say, for a nonviolent crime, to a period of time in jail or a monitored parole where you had to be at home, between six o'clock at night and six o'clock in the morning, and the ability to monitor you there electronically, is something that is available today, then you can utilize, a type of deterrent, a type of probatio rather than an incarceration of a nonviolent criminal that will work and let them work and pay their own way and keep up the, keep up the cost of their family and others that we're now buying, you know, caring as a cost of incarceration.

The violent criminal should, have a determinate insure sentence.

We should not shy away from privatization in the construction of prisons.

Other states are doing this.

They're using the probation.

They're using the, private sector in the prisons, particularly in the construction and some of the services.

They've cut costs.

And that's what it's all about.

And I think that you have to be innovative to deal with the problems that we're facing today.

What has to be in South Carolina is, that if you break the law, that you know that you're going to jail, that you know you're going to go for a pretty doggone long period of time.

If you're, if it's a violent type crime or a very serious crime, or that, you know that even if it's a lesser crime, that you're not going to just be put on probation and call in by telephone once a month and say, "Hey, I'm okay," but you're going to be monitored and that it is going to be a punishment.

I think we need to recognize those things.

Tom Fowler> One thing that's been mentioned and from time to time pops up is, possibility of pari-mutuel betting in the state or a state lottery as a source of revenues for, everything from supporting education, to other things in the state.

Lt.

Governor Mike Daniel> Well, I don't think, though, that you can use those two parti or sources of revenue for any long range program.

I think that the revenue is too precarious, is too unpredictable and I would certainly hate to have the state's educational program, based on the revenue that would be derived from pari-mutuel betting or the state lottery.

Tom Fowler> What are your feelings about either one of those?

Lt.

Governor Mike Daniel> Well, I think that there's certainly, questions that, particular those two that the people of the state ought to decide.

I don't think anybody ought to be a dictator when it comes to somebody else's morals, or ethics.

And if the people of the state, would like to have pari-mutuel betting or the lottery, then let them vote for it.

If they don't want it, then don't vote for it.

Carroll Campbell> People want to I don't have any, but it's copout to say it's going to save your state.

It doesn't create jobs.

I don't know any state that's had a creation of a new job.

I know Maryland has had to put in a gamblers, support program, much like we have, alcohol support program in South Carolina to take care of the habitual gamblers that they have in Maryland.

So it does bring some problems.

I just think that your long range solution in South Carolina is not to take a quick fix and say, "We'll throw in a lottery, we'll get 80 million more dollars from our people."

That's fine.

If they want to do that, good.

Don't sell it as a panacea.

It's not.

It doesn't create jobs.

It doesn't expand the economic base of this state.

It doesn't expand the true wealth.

Let's go into economic development attract the industries and the jobs.

Let's don't try to sell a quick fix.

Tom Fowler> Those excerpts were on these programs.

Carroll Campbell's interview ori "Carolina Journal" in January.

Mike Daniels, interview aired in February of this year, and they were grouped together and they'll be facing each other.

This is the Lieutenant Governor debate between Tommy Hartnett and Nick Theodore.

League of Women Voters debates will be airing Monday, October ninth, for Lieutenant Governor and October 20th for Governor statewide on South Carolina ETV.

So, Mike Daniel and Carroll Campbell will face each other in our studios on that night for a statewide televised debate.

Hope this has been of some interest to you.

Both gentlemen will be appearing in the debate at ETV and a debate on W.I.S.

Television in October.

Thank you for joining us.

Good night.

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