- Two seats on North Carolina's Supreme Court will be decided this election season.

We meet the four major candidates in this very special conversation next.

- [Announcer] The 2022 Judicial Candidate's Forum is made possible by a partnership between PBS North Carolina and the North Carolina Bar Association.

[gentle music] - Hello, I'm Kelly McCullen.

Two seats on North Carolina's Supreme Court will be decided this election, and we appreciate you out there who wanna learn more about these candidates.

And as always, we wanna welcome the candidates, Richard Dietz and Lucy Inman, are joining us for this first conversation about their quest to be on North Carolina's Supreme Court.

Thank you so much for joining us.

- [Lucy] Thanks for having us.

- First question by a coil flip, we will begin with you Ms. Inman.

We've done this before for other courts, so we've talked before, but so many new North Carolina voters are out there.

Tell us about yourself, your qualifications, and why now is the time for you to join the Supreme Court.

- Well, thank you so much for having us, Kelly.

I grew up in Raleigh.

I was raised by parents who taught me and my three brothers the values of hard work, seeking and telling the truth, and respecting all people.

I received a great education in North Carolina's public schools, went to NC State University, where I got a degree in English, and found myself in court for the first time when I was working as a newspaper reporter.

And I learned in that job that people from all walks of life meet their government on a daily basis in the County Courthouse.

It inspired me to go to law school.

I got a Law degree from UNC here in Chapel Hill.

My first job out of law school, I clerked for the Chief Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court.

I then practiced law for 18 years.

In 2010, I became a Superior Court judge and I presided all across the state in courthouses in trials and hearings.

And then, in 2014, I was elected statewide to the Court of Appeals, and I'm in the last few months of my term there at the Court of Appeals.

And, I'm running for the North Carolina Supreme Court to protect the rule of law, to preserve every person's rights under the federal and state constitutions and to maintain the integrity of our court and our democracy.

Thank you.

- Richard Dietz, you're the other major party opponent of Ms. Inman.

Tell us about yourself, your experience, why is the time right now for you to join the Supreme Court?

- Sure, and again, thank you for organizing this and thanks to your viewers for their interest in our state's highest court.

So, it's been a privilege for me to serve as a judge on the Court of Appeals for the last eight years.

And my journey to the Court of Appeals began because I've always been interested in the kinds of complex cases that go to places like our Supreme Court.

So, I'm from a small town, mountain family.

I was actually the first in my family even to go to college.

But, I always kind of had a passion for the law, so a lotta that was growin' up, reading things like you know, John Grisham novels, and just being fascinated by the courtroom.

So, I managed to graduate from college.

You know, my family was excited, I made it.

I said, I'm gonna go on to graduate school, I wanna be a lawyer.

And I worked hard and I had a lotta success.

So, I was first in my class graduating from Wake Forest Law School.

I have a Masters Degree from Duke.

But, the career that I built after I graduated was focused on appeals, which is of course, what the Court of Appeals and our Supreme Court does.

And so, I became over the years, probably one of the best known experts in appeals in North Carolina.

I handled appeals all over the country, including I stood and personally argued in the U.S. Supreme Court.

You can go and look at courtroom sketches of me standing in sort of the Super Bowl of courts and handling cases there.

And I think what the message that I'm bringing to voters and to the public in this Supreme Court race is I think the court right now needs leadership, and I've shown through my background and that experience, and also, the work I've done on the court as sort of a consensus builder, that I have this ability to bring that leadership to our state's highest court.

- The Supreme Court, you know, I look on the internet, watch the news and it's all about these high level opinions and things that made the headlines.

I've come to know through these forums, there are a lot of soft skills and other skills that need to be applied to that job.

What are some of those skills that you will bring to make this court better if you're elected?

- Yeah, I think, so I'll give you a couple of examples.

I think a big one is being able to collaborate sort of teamwork and building a consensus, because the court of course, sometimes there are judges that disagree on the Supreme Court, but I think the goal should always be not to have any disagreement, to work together and have a unanimous decision.

And that can be difficult when you've got seven people with different views working on a court like that.

So, I've built a record in eight years on the Court of Appeals of being someone that can build this kinda consensus.

So, one thing I talk about is in eight years on the Court of Appeals, I'm the only judge who's never written what they call a dissent.

So, where I couldn't agree with the other two judges that worked with me on the Court of Appeals panel.

And I think that is because I work so hard on building that consensus and that teamwork.

And I think that's a huge part of what our Supreme Court needs right now more than ever, is people that go there, no political mission, no plan to kind of try to take over the court, but just work as a team and build that consensus.

I also think the other thing is you have to be a good writer, because people see judges on TV all the time and they get to talk to the people that come into the courtroom.

But, as appellate judges, so Appeals Court judges, we don't get to do that, we speak through these opinions.

So, you've gotta be able to write in a way that the public can read and understand.

You can't use a bunch of legal jargon and you have to let people know through good writing, that justice is being done.

- Ms. Inman, your skillset, what are you gonna bring to this court if you're elected?

What does it need and what gaps are you going to fill as an Associate Justice?

- Well, I think the Supreme Court needs what it's always needed and I agree with, I agree with Judge Dietz on many of those skills.

I think I have them, as well.

To collaborate requires listening to your colleagues and being able to find out if you disagree with them, what the reason is for their position.

I think that writing, I agree, is very, very important.

And as a former newspaper reporter, I've always written decisions thinking I'd like this to be for an audience of high school students.

If they can understand, if they can see how the court made its decision, they can judge for themselves whether the court has been fair and impartial.

I think it's also important however, to with respect, know when, know when you have to stand up for what is right.

I have not written very many dissents at the Court of Appeals.

I'm sure I'm one of, some of the fewest, compared to my colleagues, but unlike Judge Dietz, I have served on panels where I believe the majority was misstating the law or departing from precedent, and I've written a dissent, and the Supreme Court has overturned those decisions based on my dissents.

It's very important to be respectful, to be collaborative, but also to know when to stand up for what you know is right.

- I wanna follow up about dissents.

One of our partners at the Bar Association, likely a former Chief Justice, no longer in office, with some suggested questions.

I can't claim this though, but I'll ask you 'cause you'll understand it.

What factors will you consider in deciding whether to dissent, bearing in mind that unlike the Court of Appeals, a dissent on the Supreme Court has no immediate effect?

- A dissent on the Supreme Court has no immediate effect, except that there's, it has great immediate effect to the public.

It has a great immediate effect to the public.

And it's great when we can unanimously decide cases and when the court can speak with one voice.

But, my sort of test for writing dissents at the Court of Appeals is you know, I just, I can't sleep at night if I have signed onto something that I think is not honest or not in keeping with the rule of law.

And that's pretty much what I think the test should be at the Supreme Court.

We have had more dissents at our Supreme Court in the last year and a half than I think in many, many years before.

The Supreme Court has been more divided than, than I can recall in my lifetime.

And I think that I don't know the reason for that, because I'm not deliberating on those cases, but I'm talking about cases that are not political at all.

There, there are cases in which justices are voting together in dissent in 90% of the cases.

- Same question for you, Mr. Dietz, 'cause you were talkin' about not having dissents, trying to avoid those.

But, this question is poised to you.

- I think the dissents that we're seeing right now are kind of a reflection I think of what I see as the biggest concern with our Supreme Court, which is that people are starting to look at it and, and they see politics.

And that troubles me.

So, I think, I agree that the immediate effect of dissents is, especially in the kind of you know, really robust kind of dissent that we're seeing over the last couple of years, is that you're kinda seeing two decisions by two different sets of justices on our highest court that are almost shouting at each other, you know, just disagreeing in a very public way.

And I think that undermines people's faith in kinda the integrity of the courts.

And the way to fix that is to be a consensus builder and to help people say, you know, the public is gonna read these decisions and they're gonna see these arguments, and I just think the public right now just in politics generally, is so tired of people that are angry.

There's just sort of this sense of frustration and anger that just permeates politics, and I don't wanna see that in the courts.

That should be the one place that everyone looks and says, when I come here all that's put aside and we just get fairness.

- You both were on the Court of Appeals and had choices whether or not to run, so why join a court like that if you perceive it as being, in some cases, a disagreeable court, when you come from an environment that is agreeable in many cases?

- Well so, I've made the whole theme of my campaign, leadership for our courts, and that's the message I have for voters is the reason I'm running is I can fix it.

I've got the record on the Court of Appeals to show I can go to that court and I can bring them together and help the public see that the court is there, not to argue over politics, but to defend people's rights, protect the rule of law, and then, just to help people resolve their legal disputes fairly.

And I think if we can get back to that, we'll restore the public's confidence in our state's highest court.

- Ms. Inman, we're gonna shift over.

I wanna give you a minute to speak to the voters directly as a closing statement, because we're out of time for my questions.

We'll give you the first of our closing statements.

Tell us why you belong on the Supreme Court.

- Thank you.

It has been the honor of my life to serve our state for the past dozen years as a judge, first in courthouses all across the state, and for the last eight years on the North Carolina Court of Appeals.

I am running for the Supreme Court at a time when state Supreme Courts across our nation are being asked to make some of the most difficult decisions in our lifetimes.

I am running to protect the Supreme Court from partisan politics that we have seen on display at that court, and we have seen it at the Court of Appeals as well.

I have a record of collaborating with my colleagues, of disagreeing with respect, and keeping politics out of the courtroom.

And it's very, very important that the public know the court can do its job to keep our communities safe, to preserve everyone's rights under the federal and state constitutions, and to preserve public confidence in our courts and ultimately in our democracy.

Thank you, and I humbly ask your viewers for their votes and hope to earn them.

- Thank you, Ms. Inman.

Richard Dietz, by coin flip you have the last one minute.

- So, over the last eight years as a Court of Appeals judge I've seen the court system.

I am so proud of our justice system.

I'm proud of all the people that work in our court system.

And it's really a model, North Carolina's justice system, for the rule of law and what it can do to keep people safe, to help us all grow and prosper together.

And throughout our history the North Carolina Supreme Court has been a central part of that.

And I wanna keep it that way.

And so, that's why I'm running is I can bring the leadership that we need to our Supreme Court to get it back to its core role of just defending our rights and helping people resolve their legal disputes.

And that's why I'm asking voters for their vote in November.

- Richard Dietz, Lucy Inman, good to see you again on the forum and thank you for participating in Election 2022.

- [Announcer] Early voting for North Carolina's 2022 general election begins Thursday, October 20, 2022, and runs through Saturday, November 5.

You can also vote on election day, Tuesday, November 8, 2022.

- Welcome back.

Sam Ervin, IV and Trey Allen are both seeking election to North Carolina Supreme Court.

They call it Seat Five, but they're in the seat here in the studio with me now.

By coin toss, Mr. Ervin, you get the first question.

And it's, you know, a lotta new voters out there and a lot of people who might be dialed in on other races where millions and millions of dollars are being spent.

Tell me about Sam Ervin, IV, and your qualifications and why is the time now for you to continue on the Supreme Court?

- Well, of course, I'm on the Supreme Court now.

And so, my qualifications for doin' that, I'm a native of Morganton in the western end of the state.

I'm a product of the public schools in Burke County, graduated magna cum laude from Davidson College, cum laude from Harvard Law School.

I practiced law in Morganton for 18 years, did a general practice that involved lots of different kinds of cases, including a lot of appeals to the Court of Appeals and to the Supreme Court.

In 1999, I was appointed by Governor Hunt to the Utilities Commission and served on that body for almost 10 years.

Eventually, decided I wanted to be in the courts, ran for the Court of Appeals, was elected to the Court of Appeals in 2008, and was elected to the Supreme Court in 2014.

I've served on the court since that time.

I'm seeking re-election.

- Tray Allen, you are the loyal opposition in this particular race.

Your qualifications, sir, what makes timing now your time to join the Supreme Court?

- So, I'm a native of rural Robeson County, grew up there, met my wife there.

I went to college at UNC Pembroke, then law school at Chapel Hill.

I served four and a half years in the United States Marine Corp.

Most of that was overseas.

I prosecuted, I gave legal advice to commanders and I helped marines with their personal legal problems.

I came back to North Carolina.

I clerked for a justice on the state Supreme Court.

I then practiced law and became a partner at a firm in Raleigh where I handled constitutional law claims and other kinds of claims in state court and federal court at the trial level and the appellate level.

Since 2013, I've been a professor at the UNC School of Government.

The School of Government is a unique institution.

Government leaders around the state, including judges, rely on School of Government professors to give then unbiased, legal opinions on a wide range of issues.

Since January of last year I have served as the General Counsel for our state's court system.

I'm on leave from UNC, and in my role as General Counsel, I run the office of lawyers for the court system.

We have about 7000 or over 7000 officials and employees in our state's judicial branch.

My office is relied on by judges, magistrates, and clerks of court for again, unbiased legal advice.

And I think you also asked why am I running now?

And the reason I'm running now is because I care deeply about our state Supreme Court.

You know, it has the last word on the interpretation of state law, and there's no appeal from it on matters of federal law except to the U.S. Supreme Court.

I want our state Supreme Court to be one that people can be confident is making its decisions based on the law and the facts and not politics.

- Outside of the opinion writing, which garners all the headlines and gets every day folk's attention, a lotta other skills are needed to be a successful Associate Justice.

What skills do you think are most important?

What are the ones that you bring that you find most important, should you win the seat?

- Well, one that I think is very important and that I hope I bring is humility.

You know, my judicial philosophy is really one of judicial restraint.

I think the court should closely follow the law.

I think they should avoid injecting themselves into politics.

And one reason for that is because judges aren't really equipped to make the kinds of policy decisions that really belong to the Legislature.

And judges should, should recognize that and stay within their role.

And that's also why I think that as a general rule, courts should follow precedent.

That's also about judicial humility.

It's about recognizing that people who came before you might have had an insight that you don't necessarily have.

I also think that if you approach the job with some humility that you'll be open minded, and that's of course, also something we want in all of our judges.

We want them to, to reserve their decisions until they've heard, or the issues fully argued by both sides.

- Mr. Ervin, same question to you about those other skills.

It's one thing to write opinions, we'll read about those.

But, that every day work that you have to do.

- It seems to me that what we really need out of a judge, any kinda judge, but particularly a Justice of the Supreme Court, are several things.

First of all, you need to listen.

The one thing I've learned from my many years of experience in the court system is that litigants most important value somebody who listens to them.

A litigant that thinks that he or she's been heard fairly is more likely to accept a decision whether he or she likes that decision or not.

And I think I do that.

The second thing is I think you need to be able to explain the decisions that you make.

Now, this does get close to opinion writing, but how you write an opinion is as important many times as what you say at the end of it.

It's important that the opinions be clear, that they let people know what their legal rights, responsibilities, and obligations are, and if you don't do that in your opinions, and I think I have done that in the many opinions that I've been involved in drafting, the law becomes muddled and that's not a good thing.

And then lastly, I think it is very important that our court systems not become a political institution.

I've been on the court, as I said, for almost eight years now.

I've got an extensive record of decisions.

The decisions that I've made do not always look like what one would expect from a judge with my particular political persuasion.

Instead, what I try to do is call 'em like I see 'em, because at the end of the day what you're supposed to do is you're supposed to be fair.

You're supposed to be impartial, and you're supposed to follow the law as you understand it, not as you would like it to be.

- You know, being elected is two-way street.

It's trust between voters to you and you likewise, back to a voter.

But, let's face it, going forward, the way it seems now, lotta people are gonna look at that D, look at that R, and maybe not what you've judged or how you've ruled and all.

What's responsible on the voter's part?

Whether you're a justice or not, what's fair?

What should the voter do with looking at two candidates?

- Well, I would hope that the voter would look at the overall record of the candidate that they're considering voting for and see whether that candidate does what that candidate claims that he or she is doing.

The claim that I made a minute ago was that I've got a record of making decisions that do not follow necessarily a particular political pattern, but rather instead, try to follow the law as I understand it.

And you, at least in my case, you can look at my decisions.

You can see instances in which I have done things that one might not expect, given what you might know about my political affiliation.

And I think that's at least, some indication that a judge is doin' what he or she says that they're supposed to.

- Mr. Allen, I'll pose that question your way as potentially joining the court, people are going to look at you, they'll look at your party.

I keep this as non-partisan as possible, but there's a lotta people thinkin' if they vote for Sam Ervin or for Trey Allen, they can predict how you think and how you're gonna rule.

Is that fair?

- No, I don't think so.

What they should expect from judicial candidates in my view in part, is an explanation of how you will approach issues.

And so, I do think as I said earlier, that judicial philosophy's important.

I also agree that they need to look beyond the ads and do some research.

In my case, having been a professor at the UNC School of Government, I've produced a large body of writings, many of which are available online.

Anyone can get a look at them.

And I think if people go and they look at those writings what they'll see is the work of a careful lawyer who tries to get the answer right, and they won't find any partisan bias in them.

- How do you see the future of the North Carolina Supreme Court in terms of tone, in terms of how people view it, in terms of how the media treats it?

- Well, we are in a more polarized society, and I think that's why it's all the more important for the court to issue rulings that people can look at and they can read and agree that the rulings are based on the law and the facts, that they're not intended to reach a certain result that favors one party or another.

- Mr. Ervin, I've covered politics for years and you've served this state a long time, but it does seem like it's a different era with this Supreme Court.

What are your thoughts on what I asked him in terms of tone, how it's treated, how people view?

- Well, I think that one of the things that we've done that I personally regret is that we've, when I first started running for the courts these were non-partisan races.

The General Assembly, it has the authority to control that and they made the decision to make these races partisan again.

I personally wish they had not done that.

The majority of people in the state in the poll data that I've seen tend to agree that it was not a good idea.

It tends to suggest that voters ought to look at judges as political animals instead of as judicial officials.

What we are supposed to do is pretty simple.

We're supposed to look at the facts, look at the law, make a decision.

We are not here to effectuate some kind of political or ideological agenda.

Our decisions need to reflect what the law is, not what we would like it to be.

- Gentlemen, that's going to conclude my line of questions.

Part of the agreement of this conversation was to allow each of you a minute, or up to a minute thereabouts, to speak directly to the voters to make your case on why you are the proper choice for the North Carolina Supreme Court.

Mr. Ervin, I'll give you that first one minute block of time.

- All right.

Thank you very much for having me, for starters.

I appreciate the chance to speak with the public this way.

I would urge folks to seriously consider supporting my candidacy.

As you indicated earlier, I have an extensive record of public service to this state.

People can look at what I've done and determine whether I do what I say I do.

But, I believe that the record that I've got, not what I say, but what I've done, suggests that I can be fair, that I can be impartial, that I don't make political decisions.

There are two groups of lawyer, there are two groups of lawyers in this state that belong to organizations that contest against each other in court.

Both of them have endorsed my candidacy for re-election.

I think that suggests that even though those folks don't agree with each other in court, and instead oppose each other, they both are confident that I can be fair, that I can be impartial, and that I do what I say I do.

I would appreciate the support of the public.

I would very much like to be re-elected to the court.

- On the ballot, that's Sam Ervin, IV, Associate Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court.

To you, Mr. Trey Allen, the final one minute and the last word from the coin flip.

- Thank you so much for having us here, I appreciate it.

Just like to say a word to the voters.

The judiciary is not like the other branches.

It doesn't have any enforcement powers like the Executive.

It doesn't have the power of the purse that the Legislature enjoys.

The authority of the courts ultimately rests on the trust of the people.

I'm running in this race because I want the people of North Carolina to have confidence that the North Carolina Supreme Court is making decisions, even in politically charged cases, based on the law and the facts.

I think people also want a justice system that's fair, but one in which if a person is found to be responsible for some crime, that that person is held responsible by our courts.

I'm running to give us a justice system that administers justice and that doesn't follow politics.

- Trey Allen, San Ervin, IV, thank you so much for your participation in the Judicial Forum here in 2022.

Good luck and be safe out there on the campaign trail.

And I wanna thank all of the North Carolina Supreme Court candidates for they've all participated in these conversations.

And I especially wanna thank our partner, the North Carolina Bar Association.

North Carolina's early voting period runs from October 20 until November 5, 2022.

If you don't cast your ballot early, election day is Tuesday, November 8, 2022.

I'm Kelly McCullen.

Thank you for watching.

- [Announcer] The 2022 Judicial Candidates Forum is made possible by a partnership between PBS North Carolina and the North Carolina Bar Association.

[gentle music] ♪