From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in 2021, when one of the most expensive restaurants in the world went fully vegan.

Chef Daniel Hume reopened 11 Madison Park after the pandemic shutdown, and at the time, he told NPR that he had arrived at a conclusion.

High-End dining could be vegan and morally probably should it be vegan, he said.

Quote, I believe that if the meal is delicious, we don't need to worry about it.

I think people will buy into it.

I think if we want to really push the envelope, this is the place where we have to do it.

End quote.

The results were mixed.

Some diners stopped coming, rejecting the idea of a $300 tasting menu that contained no animal protein.

But in 20 2211, Madison Park became the first restaurant in the world to earn three Michelin stars for a fully vegan menu.

The judges cited dishes like meringue without eggs, almond milk, ricotta, and Japanese land caviar.

It was called made from dried seeds.

And yet, behind the scenes, there were reports of tension.

Some staff disagreed with the new direction.

And New York Times critic Pete Wells not only wrote a scathing review of The Vegan Menu, he revealed that there was a secret meat room, a way for the restaurant to placate customers who still wanted meat.

So it seemed clear early on that 11 Madison Park was unlikely to spark a vegan dining revolution.

And maybe that's what the chef hoped to see restaurants in every city in the country ditching meat in favor of a creative vegan menu, and diners here in Rochester, Geneva or beyond realizing that they never needed animal products in the first place.

But the secret meat room pretty quickly put that idea to rest.

And now, as Eater New York puts it, the vegan experiment at 11 Madison Park is over.

They write, quote, in an area when climate advocacy is muted and the Trump administration is gleefully gutting environmental protections.

Daniel, whom has read The Room softening the vegan virtue signaling of 11 Madison Park, one of the most expensive restaurants in the city, with more rich people like the billionaire tech bros embracing Trump and his policies.

The Flat Iron restaurant perhaps sees that it has to accommodate more diners who can help pay the bills.

The chef, who once recasts the three Michelin starred destination as a temple to plant based luxury, will soon run dual menus.

Starting on October 14th, 11 Madison Park will offer one vegan and one with select animal proteins, which marks the return of fish and meats such as the signature honey lavender glazed duck.

End quote.

For his part, who acknowledges that some people will call him a sellout or maybe a quitter, he told the New York Times, quote, I have some anxiety that people are going to say, oh, he's a hypocrite, but I know that the best way to continue to champion plant based cooking is to let everyone participate around the table.

End quote.

So we wondered, did anything change in the last four years?

Has the appetite for vegan cooking hit a wall?

What do diners say they want in Rochester, in the Finger Lakes and beyond?

My guest this hour come from.

Well, they all come from the restaurant world.

They've got a wide range of experiences on one side of me as Art Rogers, the chef and owner of Lento.

Welcome back to the program.

Thanks for having me.

Great to be here.

Across the table from artist Chris Brockie, restaurant operations and beverage consultant here, and I should say around the country.

Welcome back to the program.

Nice to be back.

And next to Chris is Ryan Jennings, culinary director of Max Rochester.

Welcome back to you as well.

And pleasure to be with you.

Last time we talked on this, we talked about Sweet Pea and I, you know, I have to ask, you know, I mean, is this the same story with Sweet Pea?

Yeah.

A lot's happened since, February when we last spoke.

Yeah.

I mean, it is similar.

I mean, I do take issue with a bit of that article and the way that it, was phrased.

You know, the fact that that restaurant is continuing to offer a completely plant based selection, I think continues to be revolutionary.

And I ate there and had it and can say that it in my taste.

Anyway, it is.

But what we saw at Sweet Pea was a plateau.

When we started, we did, a fully, plant based menu.

Whole food plant based on no oils, no animal products of any kind to try to solve the problem that a lot of people were dealing with, which was that they wanted to change their health through lifestyle rather than medical intervention.

And it works for that.

But a lot of people couldn't get their entire household in it.

And I think that speaks to what, chef whom is describing there.

That led us to an approach of meeting people where they are not everybody wants to be 100% plant based.

I myself was never 100% plant based.

But, you know, over time, we found that the only way the business was going to grow was if we were continually getting into new markets and, you know, after seven years, we'd had a good run, but it wasn't financially viable for us to continue to make the investment in marketing and an expansion.

And then I also had a wonderful job offer to return to Max Rochester.

So that's the story there.

And to your point, though, about how you came to view and and maybe how Daniel, whom views it, I want to refer to what he told the New York Times about how he came to see having an only vegan menu.

He said he came to see it as exclusionary.

He said, quote, while we had built something meaningful, we had also unintentionally kept people out.

This is the opposite of what we believe hospitality to be.

You agree with that?

I certainly see his point, and I think it's just a little bit different for what what my business was in this restaurant.

I think in this restaurant specifically, that is a destination that is one of the best in the world.

It's been voted best in the world.

It carries three Michelin stars to have, a menu that is only plant based will alienate people.

People simply want to eat those things.

So if you know by that definition, you take it away.

You are keeping some people out.

And what's similar between Sweet Pea and their approach is that, you know, their new approach that's that's starting in a couple of weeks.

Is that, you know, we always tried to find a way to help people get to where they to introduce these plant based foods so that they were part of their diet, not necessarily all of their diet.

And offered ways through our nutrition coaching programs and such to, you know, cut out certain ultra processed foods are really bad for them, steer them towards, you know, locally grown, organic, meats and proteins and seafood and different things that were better for them than just going to the supermarket and buying, you know, whatever, terrible stuff for them.

The standard American diet.

So, you know, I, I certainly understand where he's coming from from a financial perspective.

People who identify as, as vegan or plant based, it's, you know, less than 3% of the population.

So just that number right there.

You're saying like 97% of people aren't going to want what we have.

Well, and whom also told NPR that over the past year, he found it increasingly difficult to sustain the level of creativity.

And labor required bookings for private events, which are an essential stream of income at 11 Madison Park and probably everywhere, have become particularly sparse.

Wine sales were down.

So, Chris, when you think about what this means, I want to be careful not to sort of over prescribe what this means, because the mistake, I think whenever we talk about the way culture moves away, art moves, the way food moves is to declare sort of an end point, like, well, that experiment is over and veganism is over.

And, you know, this is the cap.

This is the most it could do.

And I recognize that whatever this is, it's not the end of something.

But I do want to tap sort of into this idea or hear your perspective on whether it represents this idea that there is a pullback from what was maybe a decade long move toward more vegan options, all vegan options.

Is the movement stalled in restaurants?

I don't think that it's stalled.

I think it is playing out the way that it's going to play out.

Keeping in mind they've done this for four years now, that they got three Michelin stars as a plant based restaurant, which is the first restaurant ever to do so, not just in America, but I believe internationally.

So that's a that's a big deal.

They, learned a lot.

And they'll continue to use those skills as they move forward.

It was funny, Ryan, when you made the comment about processed food and kind of getting people away from that.

I think, Pete Wells critique in his initial review was kind of to make plants, kind of do what they wanted it to do.

We're asking plants to do too much.

And so there was kind of a lot of processing that went on with the plants in order to get them to a certain point, to kind of a piece of meat eating audience, as opposed to just giving them the meat.

At in terms of alienating certain people, I think that that's a euphemism for there are fewer butts in the seats, which means there are fewer revenue dollars overall.

So this is absolutely about money.

That 3% stat that Ryan just mentioned absolutely speaks to the financial reality of this.

Like, this was a very, precocious move, you might say, but it definitely had a lot of spa.

Right.

Like they they said basically, Daniel Daniel Humm in 2021 when we were rebuilding everything and the whole world's a possibility.

Listen, we're moving into the 21st century.

We want to be responsible citizens, and we want to make sure that we're doing what's right for the planet.

And that means eating more plants.

But you've got, you know, Blue Hill at Stone barns, again, one of the most amazing restaurants in the country that says outright animal husbandry is a big part of running a responsible farm and creating an ecosystem that is sustainable.

You can't do it without animals as effectively as you can with.

So they don't serve a majority meat over there.

They serve majority vegetables as well.

And you can do a lot with that.

I mean, I've had the privilege of being at 11 Madison a couple of times over the last couple of years, and I am very happy to say that it didn't affect my experience at all.

I thought it was brilliant.

I thought it was just wonderful to sit down and have that level of hospitality, service, etc.. Not everybody shared my opinion.

A lot of people did not in your own dining group.

And yeah, absolutely.

I would tell people like, oh, I got to go to Clemente Bar, which is the space they just opened above the main room, and everyone's like, oh, is it plant based up there too?

Yeah, I would go, but and, you know, I said the day I went to Clemente was the day that they released the statement saying that they were eventually going to include meat choices again.

And by the way, that secret meat room that you talked about was actually private events.

They kept certain, meat based options on the private menus.

It wasn't like I think Pete Wells was snacking a little bit as he was want to do it right?

It wasn't.

It wasn't just like, I have a password.

So let me, let me, let me into the beat room.

I want to what do I gotta say to get a hamburger?

What do I need to say to get a steak?

No, that was not happen.

So I don't think we're.

I don't think we're getting away from plant based dining.

We're going to need to learn to do it.

And the fact that these guys learned this much technical skill over the course of the last four years is going to bring it forward.

Just briefly.

You went to 11 Madison Park before the change in 2021?

Yes.

And after?

Yes.

Which was the better meal?

Experience I think is the better word to use there.

And I'm not I'm not using that to be kind of I'm not trying to avoid your question.

I think it's just when you go to 11 Madison Park, certainly the food is a huge part of it.

I'm sitting with two chefs at the table who will tell you it is 90% of the game.

But there's always all the other pieces and I think that's, in terms of what, 11 Madison delivers as a product.

That's their warmth, their space, their hospitality, their history, their their playful approach when it comes to so many things, just kind of the young energy.

They're attracting young talent from all over the world to come and do these things.

There's so many things that they give you.

I would say they were different experiences.

I would say to my palate, it's exciting to have the lavender duck back because I had it once before, and that really is a kind of a life changing dish.

So.

So I don't know.

Okay.

Fair enough.

There.

Now, Art Rogers, part of the conversations we've had over the last decade with you is how you plan a menu based on what you like to do as a chef, how creative you want to be, and knowing your clientele, knowing what they'll sort of give you room to do, but what they'll demand to be on the menu.

Do you need to have a burger on the menu, or do you need to have a vegan option?

And maybe 15 years ago, it was like a vegan option was kind of a Vito option for for some folks like, well, we need at least something, but it wasn't as maybe front and center as we've seen over the last decade.

Do you see it shifting at all to you?

Is your clientele demanding more or less when it comes to vegan options these days?

Well, we always have a vegan option on, and we put a lot of time and thought into it.

It's not just, something boring, like a lot of restaurants will just sort of take components of other other dishes and like, toss on to a completely take our time and, and put something together and have that on there.

There have been a few times recently, post-Covid that I've taken steak off the menu and we've had people leave the restaurant, not angrily, but I had my mind set on a steak and I'm going to go find a steak home.

Where else?

People who booked a reservation and came all the way into the restaurant and then told you there's no steak?

I'm leaving.

Yes, it didn't happen often, but it happened.

I'm so okay.

So yeah, we do have a steak on the menu as well.

I don't know how to answer that question.

I think, from my personal experience, when we first opened and our concept was farm to table, people assumed that we were a vegan restaurant or we would have many vegan options.

That I think has changed since 2007.

People understand that meat and eggs and dairy also come from farms now, which is great that people know where their food is coming from.

Where I don't think they really thought about it before.

If you hear farm, they're like, oh, it's just, it's going to be vegan or vegetarian.

But when Ryan talks about three, roughly 3% of the population is vegan.

There was this thought in the last decade or so that number one, with improving vegan products, number two, with more restaurants happily putting work in the menu items, not just throwaway items, but really good stuff on menus, there was this thought that it's going to be easier to be vegan, and it's going to be more healthy, and more physicians are going to talk to their patients about it, and maybe we'll see it in double digits, and maybe we'll see the surge and we'll see more restaurant demand.

That does not seem to be playing out.

It doesn't seem to me that over at Lento, you're feeling like if we don't add a second dish, we're in trouble.

You know, the vegan orders are really increasing.

Yeah, I think I would agree with that statement.

But I think those things that you said, I mean, I do think people are more aware.

People know that it's healthier.

Why it didn't, like, catch on like wildfire or that, I don't know, it definitely lost some momentum somehow somewhere.

But I, I do think physicians probably do talk to their patients.

I'm sure they do.

They have heart disease.

Or like the first thing you should do is change your diet, become vegan.

I mean, that I think Ryan could attest to that.

Like, you know, I'll say that it happens a lot less than you would think.

You know, doctors and, you know, I don't want to speak for every program or practice or everything.

Don't get a whole lot of nutrition training when they're going through medical school and really have to, to seek it out, you know, my, my partner in Sweet Pea was somebody, you know, he was kind of the reason that we started the whole thing was his experience.

He was somebody in his late 30s.

He had young kids, had always kind of struggled with his weight.

Was starting to see health effects.

Based on that high blood pressure, pre-diabetic, all these kinds of things.

And, you know, his family is in sort of health care adjacent, activities and, and things.

And nobody had ever mentioned to him that if you switch to a whole food plant based diet, this will change.

He had a friend who was in a similar sort of, health predicament, and somebody had told him that, and in six months he was able to reverse, his, his heart disease and not have, heart surgery as a result.

And then a year later, he was heart attack proof.

And this really caught Mike's attention.

And then he had to go seek out all this stuff.

I mean, in this area, we have, tremendous resources on the house side, with, the Campbell's, doctor Aaron and Tom and his father, Dr.

Colin Campbell, who wrote the China study, which is kind of the Bible for all these things.

But it's hard to make an impact with such a small part of the community.

I mean, we always said it was changing hearts and minds.

It was going to do it.

But I think everybody kind of estimated and just speaks kind of to your point that the lift that that was going to be like traditional a standard American diet, traditional American values, those kinds of things.

It's it's a tanker ship, you know, it moves very slowly.

And, you know, the weather can go this way.

That way, you still got to make hopefully we made some inroads.

Well, in a minute I'm going to read an email that is maybe sheds some light or at least offers an idea about why that tanker ship hasn't moved even as much as we thought.

Granted, it's slow, but one other point I want to ask Chris about here.

So Joel writes in to say, I think that the move at 11 Madison Park is baloney.

Vegan baloney of course, says the messenger is out there.

Vegans are not turning back.

And he goes on to say the problems described for this restaurant are everywhere.

Private events and wine sales are down across the nation.

He's saying, you know, blaming vegan ism is baloney in Joel's words.

What do you think?

I think there's volatility across the nation right now.

We are still trying to figure out exactly like what's up and what's down and what's going to work and what's not.

Just I mean, these guys can talk about the price of food.

I mean, beef in particular has been absolutely insane is not what the president said last month.

He said everything is down.

Where are we with eggs?

Does anybody have that number?

Eggs are down.

Okay.

Eggs are down.

He said.

Meat's down, not down.

He said chicken is down, not down.

He said everything's down.

Okay, well that aside and you know, we can talk about kind of the overall mood.

I think, you know, to Ryan's point, that tanker ship, we have incorporated meat into our diet for so long, even if we know it's healthier to eat a plant based diet.

And when we say, you know, entirely plant based, we're giving up.

We're giving up cheese, we're giving up dairy.

We're we're really just focused on only eating things that grow from the ground.

That's perhaps not as comforting to us.

It's not what we were raised with for the most part.

There are some of us who grew up vegan, but not myself and not a lot of people I know.

I think it's, it's it's a tough thing sometimes if people are feeling a little stressed and the weight of the world around them and the price of beef, which may or may not be higher to maybe wants to go into a different phase with their, dietetic intake, I, I feel as though I feel as though the world is, is is mostly mostly plant based to begin with.

Right?

Like we're the ones who eat the most meat.

That's correct.

Yeah.

So the the fact that, you know, we're kind of still learning about all this and bringing it into our culture, I don't know that we're going to we're going to move the ship very well right now.

And I think we're the president may have gotten confused as the prices at McDonald's haven't gone up, but I can assure you that the, the price of beef tenderloin has doubled in the past six months.

That's really rough, I mean, that's we we have a steak house.

You're a steak house?

Well, one of the hard times for a steakhouse.

Yes or no?

I mean, it depends on your clientele.

We're very fortunate with Max Chophouse that we have a robust group of regulars who come in, and they still want the steak, and they, you know, they can absorb it, and some people can, but, you know, the average everyday person, middle income can't absorb.

Yeah, that's that's tough.

A 10% increase is difficult to deal with.

Yeah.

Right.

I mean I 100% increase that over a very short period of time is what we're talking about here.

So shouldn't that push us more toward plants.

It's not right now.

So there's some interesting factors at play.

And I don't again, I don't mean to make this political, but when the president says the price of everything is down, I think people get confused or might buy into it and aren't for you.

Our food prices continuing to be up.

Are you experiencing meat prices up?

Well, like I've said on the show before, because we buy all of our meat from small local farms, it's already like exorbitantly expensive.

Anyone that shops at Brian Farmer's market knows the prices of that meat and you get what you pay for.

But those prices have gone up.

Not crazily.

But on a, on a small scale.

But I'm already paying so much for mayonnaise and dairy from the small local farms that, the commodity market is kind of off my radar, to be honest with you.

Gotcha.

So two emails on the subject, Charles says.

Charles says the proudest moment of my life was watching the rhino at the Seneca Park Zoo with my niece.

I told her he was eating lunch and she said, grass isn't the lunch.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go make sure my bolt action are ten will still shoot in the direction of the deer or bear I'm aiming at.

That is from Charles.

Okay, so Charles is is celebrating the notion that plants are not just lunch.

And I think the subtext there is eat meat.

Okay.

Their populations are way up.

So, you know, we appreciate the effort.

Yeah.

And and venison can be delicious.

Yeah.

That's right.

Charles.

Thank you.

Rick says.

Evan, the answer to this is simple.

Everything is political.

Now, how many diners at 11 Madison Park in the last four years were Trump voters?

That's a very direct question.

And it's really weird that we're at this time where we're sitting here talking about who would even go into a restaurant and what their politics are.

But it's a fair question.

So I know Chris, do restaurants think about that?

I mean, what, 11 Madison Park?

Is that a fair question that Rick is asking?

How many Trump voters were?

I think it's it's fair to ask the question, to have the curiosity.

And certainly if you're in the business to be aware of those things, we are by nature kind of apolitical third places.

Right?

Like we kind of create a space for what you're supposed to be.

That's the point, right?

And it's very true, though sometimes I did a huge piece yesterday about Washington, D.C.

dining, which is, you know, for the most part, been pretty boring over the years.

Lots of lobbyists using their expense accounts, lots of politicians getting lobbied.

People go out to eat all the time in D.C., DC being extremely liberal in and of itself, where do all of the president's team and supporters go out to eat?

And it turns it turns out they've carved out a few pockets and turned certain restaurants into kind of like almost semi-private clubs at this point where people of, like, political minds can come together and not worry about getting harassed.

And so that's interesting.

I and that's different.

I mean, I don't know if that's healthy, but I'm not saying Rick is wrong.

But Ryan, do you think there is politics to veganism?

Inherently there shouldn't be.

I think we always called what we were doing plant based to get away from the term veganism, because their politics to plant based meat.

No, no, no, I want to answer your question.

Yeah.

Because it did have sort of this bad connotation with certain folks.

And we much like 11 Madison Park is saying they want to do now, wanted to be hospitable to everybody because that's the point.

I mean, I've only been back at Max for a month now, and I haven't worked in a restaurant for 13 years, but the time I spent before, and now the time that I'm spending going forward, the overarching thing that I tell everybody that I work with every day is like, these people are guests, they're guests in our home, and we are here to show them an exorbitant level of hospitality, make them feel at home.

It doesn't matter what they did for who they voted for anything.

When they sit down in the restaurant with us, they should feel at home and feel comfortable.

It's better to have people of opposing viewpoints in the same room breaking bread at the same time.

This is important.

If we're going to get past whatever this blip is that we're in right now, we need to continue to bring normal people together on a daily basis.

I agree.

Yeah.

And look at, you know, God rest his soul, Tony Bourdain and his show going to every corner of the world, every war zone, every and sitting down and talking to them.

And they all figured it out, right?

Like he was in West Virginia, blowing off air, 40 sevens with the guy and trying to talk about, you know, how the urban versus, you know, more rural areas and differences on guns.

They managed to get through the conversation, enjoy each other's company.

I think if you take some of that stuff out of it and just remember that everybody's people, they've all got opinions and leave some of that alone.

And I think it's the only way that we're going to get forward in any of this.

Everything is so political because we allow it to be art.

And, Lento, probably the last thing you want to do is we think about politics.

Well, I do listen to NPR all day.

No, no, no, no, you're not your customers.

No, I, I, I don't get any, I don't get any sense of that.

I don't get any anecdotes from the waitstaff about political talk that's toxic or loud or people arguing.

So, Yeah, I think, like Ryan said, you come in, you want to be hospitable to whoever comes in there, and most people are just coming out looking to have a nice dinner and a nice time and enjoy the company of the people that they're with.

And, yeah, I mean, I. A chef that escapes by name that before 20, 25 years ago when I first started, said, this is the advice I'll give you in the kitchen.

Don't talk about politics or religion and everything will be fine.

And I've stuck to that.

And you know, everything is worked out smoothly in the back.

And I can't think of any instances where it's caused any, any trouble.

But, you know, we are living in, highly polarized, times.

Yeah.

We're trying to be the town square for this program.

Charles is, you know, a semi-regular, contributor and certainly very conservative and very smart guy.

And I appreciate his email.

People like Rick, maybe on the different side of the political aisle, we need all voices, and we need to do it together.

And we ought to do it in restaurants, to the point about breaking bread together does matter.

If we have cities like Washington, DC, where there's here's the conservative restaurant, here's the mega restaurant, here's the lefty restaurant here, you know, here's where the establishment Democrats go.

I mean, I don't think that's how we want to structure society.

I don't think even more sorting in restaurants is where we want to go.

That's just me.

I don't think it's a healthy way for us to be 100%.

Yeah.

So on the other side of this, then we're going to we'll we'll welcome some more feedback from listeners.

So Charles, Rick, thank you.

Listeners, if you want to email the program connections at skywalk connections at org, you can call the program toll free.

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You can join the chat there.

So a lot of ways to interact with us.

I do want to hear, either from vegans or people who prefer vegan menus if it's gotten better in this town.

I mean, certainly from 20 years ago, way better ten years ago, probably better.

Is it that plateau?

I mean, do what do you see when you go out?

Do you see a lot of good options?

Do you see places like Lento, Max, etc.

really working hard to make sure that you're taken care of?

Or do you feel like an afterthought?

Do you feel like there's been a pullback in the last few years, or do you think it's really strong?

So I'd love to hear from you on that.

And we'll do that on the other side of this break as we talk about where we are going next.

This is not a static thing.

I mean, restaurant culture is always moving.

So I'm going to ask our three guests, you know, where do they think we are going and where do they think their clientele is going to take them?

How do restaurants make sure that they are still really, really involved with making sure that vegans are, well taken care of, even if a restaurant like 11 Madison Park decides we don't have enough clientele to make it fully vegan.

So a lot of different places we're going to go on the other side of our only break of the hour.

Coming up in our second hour, the idea of play therapy for children was once viewed as kind of fringy, but now more insurance companies are covering it more research backs it up or validates play therapy.

So what is it?

And for parents who are desperate for some intervention for their kids, for kids who feel antisocial or withdrawn, isolated, especially post-pandemic, can play therapy work?

We'll talk about it.

Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from bond, Chinook and King, a multi practice law firm in Rochester with offices across New York State serving business, health care and educational institutions.

Online at Bascom.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

John writes in to say that it used to be that pasta and salad was all vegans could get, and he said it's become a lot more creative.

He likes the fact that he feels I can go out to eat just about anywhere and feel like he can order something, as a vegan and, you know, I mean, I also heard our Art Rogers have Lento say earlier this hour, I think, and making a fair point that there are still some restaurants that have probably throwaway vegan menu items just to make sure someone is placated.

John is saying pretty good, like it's it's pretty good.

As a vegan, there's a lot of better options.

How much care do you put into to your menu for vegans?

I mean, there's always at least one dish that's vegan.

Yeah, there's always at least one entree that's vegan.

And we have menu meetings about twice a week, and we put as much effort and work into coming up with our vegan dish as we do any of our, meat or seafood protein dishes as well.

And what's on the menu right now?

But I know you're gonna ask me.

Yes.

It's, so we get a, oyster mushrooms from fungi.

Mushrooms?

They're at the Rochester Public Market.

So a locally grown mushroom, it's an Asian marinade.

Extra virgin olive oil and leek.

Comfy mashed potatoes and some other vegetables that are escaping me, but.

Okay.

But.

Yes.

So.

So, you know, a nice dish where the mushroom I don't know how vegans react to this acts is like the center of the plate meat option.

And has all the components as all the other dish dishes do.

What do you mean?

The vegans are gonna react?

You're worried you're gonna get yelled at?

Yeah, but I like describing the mushroom as meat.

I don't know if that's a faux pas or not, but I think no offense out there is.

Does that offend the vegans that you know, Ryan, they're not returning my calls right now.

No, I'm kidding.

Now, I, you know, I don't I don't think, if they're offended, then maybe they should go back to this whole idea of, like, every need.

But he needs to take a step.

Everybody needs to step back.

Now, what about you?

With with your with the Mac's menus.

How much are you thinking about vegan, isn't it?

Quite a lot, actually.

You know, I mentioned the price of beef, and obviously we have a steakhouse, and that's probably not going to offer a whole lot in the way of vegan, because that's not what the clientele wants.

And, you know, the first thing is taking care of them and giving them what they want.

But certainly at Eastman Place, we are looking at, revamping the menu, adding more vegetable dishes, more small plates.

We just went through a beautiful renovation.

That and reopened in time for Jazz Fest.

And it's the 25th anniversary of of the restaurant.

So we're going to be, you know, looking at the next 25 years.

And what does that look like for, you know, what's become an institution and fine dining in the area.

And a big part of that is, is vegetables and and all the other things as well.

Chris, you've been involved in more restaurants locally and regionally than I can count.

You've consulted in California and New York wine list menus.

If someone is one of your clients now and says, are we pulling back from this?

Am I wasting my time?

How do I know what the clientele wants and how do we do it?

Well, I mean, like, what's the process you would take someone through to make sure that they are meeting the moment for their clients?

This is an economic question.

First, how are we going to pay the bills if we do this?

I think, one of the lessons that we learned from 11 Madison Park is that ideology is expensive.

If you want to kind of jump into something and make that the flag that you're carrying and say, let the rest of it be damned, we're going to we're going to bring everybody over to this side.

You are taking a big swing, and we have to test that.

Right, right.

And and it it's the right swing.

People should be doing this.

It is right I mean we talked about how how conservative traditional diners approach things.

What about the highly ideological people that only eat plants.

And these are the when we use the word vegan, this is the word that this is the way it's been poisoned, right?

Because it's like, oh no, a vegan, they're going to lecture me, they're going to come and tell me that I'm living my life wrong because I'm not being responsible for X, Y, and Z reasons.

You know, there there are those conversations to be had.

But fundamentally, I think that this is a financial and economic decision that you have to make.

Are you in a place that will service a large vegan population?

If so, make that your entire concept.

If you are not in a place where you can do that, you know, cast the seed upon infertile soil and you will you will not live.

That's kind of the way that I used a plant based metaphor there.

I heard that, so that's that's really the the first question here.

I mean, getting past any of I think this is cool.

Like, how do we make this work financially?

And we have now seen that a restaurant that is resourced more than almost any restaurant in the world needed to say, okay, four years was enough for us.

We're gonna we're going to find a way to reintegrate more people, get more butts in the chairs before I go to the phone.

So to follow the point that I think Ryan made earlier what everything you said is obviously correct, but it usually is.

They did.

I don't do that.

But 11 Madison Park did not entirely jettison the vegan menu.

They are keeping it as an option.

Do you see that as at least I want to say, a win for veganism?

But it's an interesting choice.

It's clearly they still feel valued.

There's value there.

It is a win for veganism.

The fact that four years of this has gone on is a win for veganism, and I am wrong a lot.

And so I feel I feel very comfortable on that point, though, that this has, this has brought this conversation forward in a way that it would not have been brought forward otherwise.

That Pete Rouse review.

That was nasty.

I feel like we talk about Pete too much anyway.

Yeah.

It it brought this into conversation in a way that it would not have otherwise been brought into kind of the forefront of daily discussion for a while.

Right.

And I think the problem right now is they've been doing it for four years.

It's not generating conversation anymore, and it's not generating enough income.

One of the things I didn't talk about, and I would be remiss not to I'm a wine guy first and foremost.

I consult on beverage, and, they have a 22,000 bottle wine cellar at 11 Madison Park that has a Wine Spectator Grand award, one of the best sellers, certainly in the city of New York, which is one of the best food cities in the world.

They can't sell Grand Cru Burgundy and first growth Bordeaux when there's no steak on the menu or no duck on the menu.

People aren't ordering those big boy wines, if you will.

When they don't have an option that they feel will stand up to it, and that that's the most profitable segment that there is, is the beverage.

So this is economic.

All right.

So some of your feedback here, Maggie and Rob and Maggie in Rochester first.

Hey Maggie, go ahead.

Hey.

Good afternoon.

I was a customer of Sweet Pea, and the food was delicious.

And I miss Ryan, but thank you.

And my husband heard a show on connections about Whole Foods.

Plant based.

Was all excited about it, but then he.

What?

No cheese?

What?

Anyway.

And it.

But veganism is our whole food.

It's a lot of work.

Which is why sweet peas.

That's great.

But I think people are intimidated by the amount of work that goes into preparing their own food.

Meg, I appreciate that.

So there's two I mean, and I'm sure Ryan appreciates that too.

I'm sure the team of Sweet Pea appreciates that so much.

Megan, so thank you for the phone call.

People love cheese.

That's hard to give up.

Our vegan cheeses.

I mean, there's a lot of really good, like, vegan cheeses.

I'm like, I love it when I'm like, oh, this is amazing.

And some I guess.

Yeah, that she's vegan.

I go, whoa.

So usually nut based, right.

Is that is that usually.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think it can be great.

We can.

Yeah.

But I'm with Maggie.

People love cheese, I get it.

The bread and butter service that 11 Madison Park put together was one of the most ethereal, beautiful thing.

Vegan bread ever.

Yes.

Yeah.

It was it was a laminated bread, kind of a brioche style.

And to laminate bread you need to fold in an immense amount of butter.

It's what makes it so good.

This had the seed oils largely folded into it and nuts.

And it it was indistinguishable from really, really premium French butter in this context in a way that made me just so happy.

Yeah.

I also feel like I need to at least get this on the record.

Like the all plant based menu at 11 Madison Park, I was fortunate enough to go with my wife for our second anniversary, and it was the best meal I'd ever had in my life and the best experience that I've ever had in my life.

Every single person there wished us happy anniversary.

Every single person smiled at us.

They knew about Sweet Pea.

They knew that my wife, what her career was.

They brought us back into the kitchen and made us cocktails back there like.

And you know, I'm not some, you know, billionaire technocrat.

You know, like that the.

Would you go back and order that same menu if you had meat choices?

I yeah, I very well might I mean and to speak to the, the wine thing, which you know much more about than I do, they were pairing crazy big boy wines with because we got the Big Baller wine pairing with these purely, plant based dishes and things that you just wouldn't like.

Asparagus and Barolo.

But it was incredible the way that they masterfully switched course and did this new thing.

I think that's one of the most important things about fine dining is it takes things a little bit further, and that's so that everybody else behind it can get better.

And this, you know, call it an experiment, call it ideological, call it anything.

But like the the value that this time, these past four years in 11 Madison Park did for gastronomy I don't think can really be measured yet.

Yeah.

It's an interesting point.

Maggie.

Thank you.

Oh, and last thing briefly, and then we'll take Robyn's call.

Maggie says there's still this idea, and maybe it's a reality that living a vegan lifestyle is just more food prep.

It takes more time.

Do you think your vegan dishes take more effort, more time?

Not for me, but I think for a home cook.

She's right.

It does take a lot more work and unfortunately, most Americans do not know how to cook.

I think that is, something we should be teaching our kids in elementary school or middle school?

High school.

We would all benefit from knowing how to just cook.

I'm not talking about, like, lento style cooking.

Just like basic cooking.

How to cook rice, how to cook a chicken breast.

I think that her point is valid.

To cook vegan for yourself is more challenging than cooking proteins, in my opinion.

To make it really tasty and and and worthwhile.

So you agree with that, right?

I do I mean, it's it takes five minutes to grill steak.

You know, it takes longer to compose different grains.

And these vegetables in this sauce and this topping and you know, all that different stuff.

Yeah.

I mean, it was the reason we thought we would succeed is because we were taking all the work out of it for somebody who wanted to.

Okay.

Maggie, great stuff.

Thank you very much.

Robin in Bristol next.

Hey, Robin.

Go ahead.

Hi.

So I have been vegetarian for over 30 years, leaning more and more, over the years into being vegan.

Incorporating a lot more plant based, dairy.

My husband is a meat eater, has been from the get go, although not at home, obviously, because I don't cook meat at home and he's very happy, with everything I cook.

I, I find actually it may take a little bit longer, but there are many, many, pretty simple, pretty quick, vegetarian vegan dishes that you can make, within a pretty short amount of time, like a half hour, 40 minutes.

But, I will say that, favorite restaurant?

Very favorite restaurant, hands down, for my husband as well is Redfern, which is recently voted Rochester's number one vegan restaurant.

And he he is very happy not incorporating me into his diet on a regular basis, but he does still eat me.

One of the things, though, that I haven't heard to touch base on an awful lot, in my book club right now, I am reading a book called The Bold Return to Give a Damn by Wil Harris, who's a Georgian farmer, and basically, talking.

And I'm only halfway through the book, but it's more or less talking about the factory farms now, and how how farming is done.

And, you know, USDA farms and what we're getting in our diet and what we're eating, what we're doing to the environment, with this type of farming and really how animals are being treated overall, health wise and, humanely or not so humanely.

And I think that's something that, there's many reasons why I became vegetarian.

But number one, I am a huge animal lover.

But I also know I live in a meeting world.

I live with the meeting husband.

I think a lot of it has to do with foreign animals being treated and raised.

And what are we eating and what are we getting in, in our taking, in our bodies?

And, what are we doing to the environment while we are raising meat?

So I think that should always be a consideration.

And I, I'm happy when I go into a restaurant that's a meat eating restaurant, but at least I have some options.

Yeah.

Because I think that leaving that door open gives people an opportunity not only for obviously the people that don't eat meat, but give people an opportunity to try more.

And any time anyone has ever come over to my house, they've been surprised, pleasantly surprised, the meat eaters and very happy to eat a meatless meal.

I think I'm a pretty good cook and, so I think a lot of it has to do with, giving people a chance to try and, and, helping people to understand, what how meat is being raised now, these factory farms.

So what is what is it doing?

What are we taking in in our bodies, and what are we doing to the animals?

What are we doing to the environment?

I just wanted to yeah.

Thank you.

A lot of great stuff, in fact, dovetails with a couple of emails that I'm going to read, before I, kick it over to our guests here.

First of all, Robin says she just wants good options.

She'll go to meat eating restaurant.

Alex emails to say the same thing.

Says, I don't consider myself vegetarian or vegan, but we'll pick these options more often than not.

I've seen way more vegan options as bar fare in the past few years feels way more approachable than the vegan cuisine of my youth.

That's from Alex.

Good to hear there.

And but Mary, the point about factory farms and where you draw lines.

Mary writes in to say I think art earlier was making a point that the divide is fuzzier than just vegan or meat, healthier meats, which are farm raised or free range or local pescatarian options, vegetarian, etc.

over processed, pharmaceutical fed, factory fed, 1950s type meat.

So Mary is saying yes, there's vegan and non vegan, but even within the non vegan there are a lot of different layers of of healthy of good for the person, good for the environment, good for the animals.

And that's a fair characterization.

Art.

Yeah I mean that's why Open Lento was because of what she was describing.

I don't want to serve any of that factory farmed meat.

And like Daniel, whom I'm not trying to compare myself to Daniel home, but I, you know, have an ethos and I stuck to it as well.

And after 18 years, I haven't budge from it because I really do care about the these things.

And, I don't think we should be eating that.

Everything she said was spot on.

We should be avoiding that.

And that means that meat would be a lot more expensive.

And I think that's another thing right now, meat.

I mean, we were talking about how the prices are going up, but in the grand scheme of thing, meat in this country is way too cheap.

And it's it should be flip flopped because produce is expensive for people on a budget.

And if you're looking for the most bang for your buck, calories wise, you know you're going to buy ground beef or or some such thing like that.

You're not going to compare yourself to Daniel, whom that's fine.

Who's the only James Beard nominated chef from Rochester?

No.

It's you.

Oh.

It's you.

So I just want to point that out.

And thank you there, Robin Irwin West Iran quite says there are a lot of myths about wine pairing for that crowd.

A good Pinot noir with salmon is a perfect pairing.

It reminds me, Earl, in the bathroom at Red Nuits, down in, the in the Finger Lakes, right above the urinal.

I'm just going to.

I'm taking you inside the bathroom at Red nude is a cartoon drawing of a man eating dinner, and his wife is serving it, and he's just taking a bite, and I'm.

No, I'm sorry.

He's just taking a sip of wine, and he's going white wine.

You mean this is fish?

And he's pointing to the dish?

Yeah, obviously, the implication is we're very limited.

Chris cracky, we can probably do a lot more with our wine pairings to be a little bit more adventurous.

All those rules are out the window.

Yeah.

I come back some time.

Let's do 60 minutes.

Yeah.

We could we could really talk about this for a while.

There is what you think of that works almost all of the time.

But much like these very talented chefs take together unexpected ingredients and present them in a way that you wouldn't necessarily think would work.

That absolutely happens on the wine side, too.

And I was, very much on board with what you said.

Barolo with asparagus?

Sure.

In the right preparation, that's going to be incredible.

It's going to highlight some savory characteristics you wouldn't otherwise get, which is a lot of fun.

But, you don't you don't have to be religious about pairing anymore.

And I think every sommelier worth his salt will say that at this point.

All right, let me grab a call from, this is Alex in Rochester.

Hey, Alex.

Gotta keep it tight.

Go ahead.

Hi.

Can you hear me?

Yeah.

So, Okay.

Fantastic.

Hi.

So I have a very long history of cooking.

Been doing it since I was four.

I actually worked at the coffee room for about a year prior to its closure.

Fantastic restaurant.

And I also was vegetarian for four years prior to developing some weird allergies.

And, one of the things that comes with vegan cooking, alongside the moral issues, is that it's a great way to expand, I guess, like your skills and gastronomy.

And so how you develop flavors, because when you work with animal fats, even when they're commercially produced and lower quality, you often end up with flavors that are below the palate that you don't always register.

But when you're working with vegan cooking, you have to take the time to develop a lot of those flavors from the baseline.

And that was one of the things that the sous chef at the top was really, really passionate about and made sure to actually incorporate into our King Mushroom, our, trumpet mushroom vegan dish that we always had on the menu.

And also like we always worked with non commercially produced meat.

And there was a huge difference there and how the flavor was and the quality of the meat.

I mean, I've watched the pig get butchered in the kitchen.

It was quite fascinating actually.

And so when it comes to vegan cooking, it's not only a matter of making sure that accessible and making sure that it's good, making sure that you're putting forth the same amount of effort.

I really appreciate all of the, vegans who have come on prior to me and given these same inputs of vegan food can be good.

You just have to consider it as food and not veganism, and that's about it.

Well said.

Alex, thank you.

It's a great way to wrap this conversation.

You're going to go back to MP sometime.

I'd love to.

Yeah, I mean it was that good, Ryan said earlier this hour.

Don't just view it as, oh, I got the the vegan thing because, you know, that was that was one thing we didn't get to.

I didn't like that eater called it virtue signaling.

I that was the one that really stuck out to me.

To me that is an insult to what Daniel Hume and the team at at that restaurant.

And frankly, any restaurant that either makes good vegan food or makes exclusively vegan food, it's not virtue signal.

I mean, I'm sure for some people it might be, but I never took it as a virtue signal.

Not at all.

You didn't take it there either, you know.

Certainly not.

He was looking to be more creative and do what was right for him.

His restaurant, his guests.

All good intentions.

We'll see you where Max Eastman place on Max Jeffs.

Thanks for being here.

My pleasure.

When Art Rogers puts a vegan dish at Lento, it's not virtue signaling to economics.

That's right.

And it's hopefully really good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's good.

Thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Go back to work.

Well, yeah.

Yeah.

Well.

All right, keep NPR on in the kitchen.

This cracky.

We'll see you in any number of places.

Come back talk wine sometimes.

So you want to do that.

Let's absolutely do that.

Let's do that.

All right.

Wonderful conversation this hour.

More connections coming up in just a moment.

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