Robertson: Light and crispy.

Sbrocco: Roast chicken at one of San Francisco's most iconic cafes.

Alcantara: Showstopping croutons.

Sbrocco: Plus sourdough pizzas and savory bakes in Oakland.

McCalman: I was like, "Yes, yes, yes."

Sbrocco: Just ahead on "Check, Please!

Bay Area."

She just got bad buns.

McCalman: It's real.

The struggle's real.

♪♪ Sbrocco: Hi.

I'm Leslie Sbrocco.

Welcome to "Check, Please!

Bay Area," the show where regular Bay Area residents review and talk about their favorite restaurants.

Now, we have three guests, and each one recommends one of their favorite spots, and the other two go check them out to see what they think.

Joining me at the "Check, Please!"

table today are people and talent partner Ashley Robertson, artist and creative director George McCalman, and assistant director of content and marketing, Joyce Alcantara.

Welcome, everyone.

McCalman: Pleasure to be here.

Alcantara: So excited to be here.

Sbrocco: Let's kick things off with Joyce's pick.

Offering a playful twist on traditional Chinese takeout, it's a fast-casual spot co-founded by a Michelin-starred chef.

Nestled in the heart of downtown Mill Valley, it's Mamahuhu.

♪♪ Sun: So, "Mamahuhu," in Mandarin Chinese, translates directly to "horse, horse, tiger, tiger."

So the idiom generally means "so-so" or "somewhere in between."

Maybe a little anecdotally, for Chinese Americans, my mom, whenever, she would serve any food, she would say, "Oh, this is not good."

Woman: The best egg roll.

Sun: But in her heart, she's like, "It's fantastic."

So I think there's some sort of element of that.

It's great food, but keep it humble.

We just say, "It's all right.

It's so-so."

So, Brandon Jew of Mister Jiu's wanted to do something fast-casual, just an element of hanging out, enjoying good food, enjoying good company, not having to make a reservation.

We definitely have more of the classic Chinese-American takeout food -- so sweet and sour chicken, same with broccoli and beef.

Or generally people would say beef and broccoli, but we do more of a vegetable-forward food.

Our ingredients are very, very important to us.

So we try to source as locally and organically as possible.

All the food is fresh, so everything is made to order, and it comes off piping hot from the woks or from the fryer.

Our chicken is very special because it is gluten free.

We use Mochiko rice flour, and it's battered that way.

So it's, like, really crispy, very light, not too heavy on your palate.

Did you want to do that family style?

Woman: That's what I want.

Sun: Generally as a group, you get family style.

If you're by yourself, you get a, like, rice plate.

Woman: Here.

Woman: Thank you.

Woman: All right.

Sun: Our logo, I think, is really, really cool.

It's, like, a duck that's gliding on the water.

If you see from above the surface, it just looks like it just gliding and it's easy.

But if you look underneath, their feet are just kicking really hard to keep them afloat.

So that's how we are.

No customer should feel the effort that we put in, but everything moves seamlessly and gracefully.

Man: Fabulous.

Sbrocco: All right, Joyce.

This has got to be one of the best restaurant names -- Mamahuhu.

Alcantara: Yes, it is.

I believe it means "so-so."

But as you probably gather from your visits, it's anything but.

McCalman: Yeah.

It's not so-so.

It's amazing-amazing.

Sbrocco: [ Laughs ] Alcantara: Mamahuhu is just a joyful space.

So for me, Asian food is comfort food.

And walking into Mamahuhu instantly puts a smile on my face.

What gets me in the door at Mamahuhu is the sweet and spicy chicken sando.

It's everything you could want in a fried chicken sandwich -- crispiness in the chicken, sweetness in the pineapple bun, and tanginess in the slaw.

Robertson: I love a fried chicken sandwich.

So I was really excited when I saw that on the menu when we got there.

The chicken, they dredge it in a rice flour, so it made it really light and crispy.

But when I ate it, the bun completely fell apart.

So it was kind of messy, and the sauce was kind of everywhere, and I just wish the bun had stuck together.

So I think if they get that, it's a knockout sandwich otherwise.

The flavors were awesome.

Sbrocco: And what about your bun experience, Joyce?

You ever had a fall-apart bun?

Alcantara: No.

It's been perfect for me every time.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Sbrocco: She just got bad buns.

Robertson: Yeah.

Just bad buns.

Sbrocco: Bad buns day You know, nothing you can do about it.

McCalman: It's real.

The struggle's real.

Robertson: The struggle is real.

Alcantara: Another recent favorite is the mapo tofu with pork.

It has a bit of a dry heat, so beware if you're sensitive to spicy.

But if you like it, go for it.

It has silky tofu paired with a spicy sauce, ground pork, and they just really complement each other texturally.

Robertson: And then I had the jade rice, and that was their fried rice, and I think it had a shrimp and egg and kale.

Very California touch to add a little bit of kale.

We ended up putting the mapo tofu on top of the jade rice.

And those flavors, though seemingly different, really complemented each other.

Sbrocco: And, George, you're over there shaking your head.

So obviously there's something about Mamahuhu that you liked.

McCalman: So I had the beef broccoli, which was sumptuous in terms of tenderness, in terms of flavor.

Like, they just know how to cook meat.

And I pay particular attention because I'm very particular about my meat being too rare.

I always say I don't want to hear the cow moving in the plate.

And I decided to get a side of jasmine rice and an egg roll -- kind of the classic egg roll.

But I ended up pouring the sauces that I had with it also.

And I just -- It was gone in five seconds flat.

[ Laughter ] So good.

And I just thought the packaging and the presentation was just brilliant.

And I have been to Brandon Jew's other restaurants.

Sbrocco: Who is a Michelin-starred chef.

Mister Jiu's.

McCalman: He's absolutely incredible.

And what he's done with this restaurant is so diametrically opposed to what the fine-dining experience of Mister Jiu's is.

And I love how beautifully accessible it is.

Very thoughtful.

Robertson: Though the menu is small, there's a lot of different things that I haven't tried before or hadn't really heard of.

So we ended up with the chrysanthemum salad, and none of us had ever had chrysanthemum leaves before, and that was a really big surprise and treat.

Sbrocco: You get it in tea sometimes.

Robertson: Yeah.

I've had it in the tea form, for sure.

But the salad was really bright, served cold with a sesame oil dressing, and we really enjoyed it.

Sbrocco: All right.

So dessert.

[ Laughs ] Robertson: Oh, man.

This is one -- Yeah.

I rave about this one.

And I will tell everyone when I can the boba soft serve... Alcantara: Yes.

Robertson: ...I would 100% go back for the boba soft serve.

It's an oat-milk-based banana soft serve, and I'm maybe a little biased because banana is my favorite ice cream flavor.

And they top it with a really crunchy sesame topping.

They have a Ceylon tea syrup, and it's all surrounded by a pool of boba, and nothing is too sweet.

All the flavors really balance each other out.

It was just an absolute treat.

I've never had anything like it.

Alcantara: I agree with Ashley.

And for me personally, it brings together a lot of nostalgic Asian flavors that remind you of childhood.

Sbrocco: And how did you discover it?

You live in the city, but this is in Mill Valley.

Alcantara: Yes.

They have a location in the city that I frequented often, and I was so excited when I found out they were expanding to Mill Valley, 'cause downtown Mill Valley is something out of a storybook.

I love how old-world it is.

I love how you're just walking underneath all these redwoods and able to explore so many different types of stores and restaurants, but I'm always gonna end up at the end of the road at Mamahuhu.

Robertson: Yeah.

Sbrocco: All right.

Well, if you would like to try Mamahuhu, it's located on Throckmorton Avenue in Mill Valley, and the average tab per person without drinks is around $20.

♪♪ As an artist, George has an appreciation for restaurants where the aesthetics are just as pleasing as the food.

His all-time favorite is a storied San Francisco bistro that's set the stage for refined yet unpretentious dining for more than four decades.

Located in San Francisco's Civic Center District, it's Zuni Café.

♪♪ Pilgram: Zuni Café as a building is quite impressive.

It's very magical.

Bedillion: And you turn that corner, and you can see right where you're walking into and, you know, the experience that you're about to have, which is exciting.

Pilgram: The founder of Zuni, Billy West, he fell in love with the Southwest, and so he decided to call it Zuni in honor of the Zuni Native Americans.

Judy Rodgers joined Zuni as the chef in 1987, and her foundation was in the very traditional and country-style French.

She had a discipline to keep the food very simple and very consistent.

♪♪ The food is very market-driven.

We cook with what is delicious and what is in season.

Woman: Super fresh.

Pilgram: I know the oven came before the idea developed to have an oven to roast the chicken.

So the oven, in this case, I know came first.

Bedillion: [ Laughs ] Our chicken is seasoned two days in advance.

It has a beautiful flavor, but it's all about the smoke.

So it roasts in there, it absorbs that smoke, makes it more like a roasted meat.

When it comes out, we carve the bird.

All the juices go into the bread.

It's where chicken magic is made.

Pilgram: You know, there are many very valid and good places that become trendy and do something that hasn't been done before in the molecular cuisine.

But as valid is the comfort food of food that you look at it and you understand how it was cooked.

There's no mystery.

Our carrot is a carrot.

Bedillion: [ Laughs ] Pilgram: Our leek is a leek.

♪♪ Bedillion: The space is certainly a beautiful space, but it's also very comfortable, just like the service that we provide here.

It's not pretentious.

It's very professional, but certainly is relaxing.

The ambiance is pretty lively.

It has, like, a definite energy about it, and people love to be dazzled by the food but also just to be seen and see.

Zuni has been around for more than four decades.

A lot of the customers that come here every week have been coming here for 40 years.

Pilgram: I think we're busy because we're damn good.

Bedillion: [ Laughs ] You know, and I think that it means something to know that if you were here ten years ago, it's still as spectacular today as it was then.

And I think that kind of nostalgia and that kind of memory, it sticks with people and they want to come back.

♪♪ Sbrocco: George, I love your appreciation for aesthetics in both the place and the food.

And I can see as I'm looking at this book here -- This is your new book.

I'm just gonna give you a shout-out, all right?

Look at that gorgeously designed book right there.

McCalman: Yes -- "Illustrated Black History: Honoring the Iconic and the Unseen," which is a review of American history through the eyes of 145 Black pioneers.

It has been my life's work.

I co-wrote, illustrated, and designed the book.

Sbrocco: Fantastic.

So as an artist, what is it that brings you back time and time again to Zuni Café?

McCalman: So, I've lived in San Francisco for 24 years, and so I've been going to Zuni for 24 years.

And one of the things that distinguishes Zuni is that its bar has no seating.

And so you're standing, and it's a very European experience to just walk in.

You always end up talking to a stranger.

And so I find it to be one of the more communal experiences of dining out.

That's one of the reasons I love it -- and, of course, the food.

Robertson: Yeah.

McCalman: I've had pretty much everything on the menu at this point.

But a few of its touchstones are certainly the Zuni chicken.

It is legendary, and people come from all over the world just to have that.

And it's cooked in a brick oven.

The wait is a good 45 minutes, so you should know that.

And it is one of the things where you can just feel all of the spices and the ingredients.

Robertson: Yeah, and I thought the bread salad or those croutons at the bottom was such a unique touch.

All of the juices from the chicken are flowing in, and it's so savory.

That skin was crispy and golden.

And the chicken breast itself, which we know sometimes can be dry, was delicious, juicy -- ten out of ten.

Sbrocco: It's been on the menu for a reason.

Robertson: Yes, exactly.

McCalman: And it's a meal that feeds several people.

Robertson: I call it chicken for four.

McCalman: It is chicken for four.

Yes.

Robertson: It was so warm when we walked in, too.

We were greeted with warmth, and we got sat next to a window, and you're seeing Market Street, and we're right next to the wood oven.

And the details, even to the Acme loaves hanging off of the oven -- I noticed that right away, and I'm like, "This is just beautiful touches within the restaurant."

Alcantara: Yes.

I appreciated the aesthetics.

So classy, so romantic.

I felt like I was dining in a French indie film.

But I was a little disappointed that we were seated at kind of a dark corner of the restaurant where everyone else had, like, window views.

I opted for the Zuni Caesar salad.

It was a rare 80-degree day in San Francisco, so it was a refreshing dish to get out of the heat.

Particularly the croutons were delightful.

Robertson: So good.

Alcantara: My friend and I were taking our first bites, eating kind of in silence, conversation stopped, and we looked up at each other, and we were like, "These croutons are really good."

Robertson: We said the same thing.

McCalman: The croutons are infused with flavor.

So you have one, and it's just like an explosion of flavor in your mouth.

Alcantara: Showstopping croutons.

Robertson: Yeah.

[ Laughter ] Alcantara: And I got a few other things.

One of them was the ricotta gnocchi, which were very creamy and delicate and soft.

McCalman: They're like hugs for your mouth.

Alcantara: Exactly.

McCalman: Pillows of love.

Robertson: So, the oven-roasted artichokes were the star of the meal -- besides the chicken.

Those would probably hold equal weight.

But the artichokes were arranged in a beautiful circle, and there were dollops of goat cheese and a warm glaze that came fresh out of the oven.

And those artichokes were like butter.

They were absolutely delicious.

McCalman: One of my favorite times to go to Zuni is actually for brunch.

Sbrocco: They do a great brunch.

McCalman: They do a fantastic brunch.

And so I ordered the bavette steak, and there's a pesto, there's potatoes.

It's just a beautiful little combination, but it's not too much.

It's very much like a brunch portion.

And for years, I went and never ordered the steak.

And then I went for brunch, and it turned my world around.

Sbrocco: Right.

McCalman: Yes.

Sbrocco: All right.

Dessert.

Ashley, I don't know why I'm looking at you like you're the dessert queen.

Robertson: And I'm -- That's funny.

It's funny, because I'm not generally a dessert person.

We were so full when we were done.

And then we saw the buttermilk panna cotta.

And unlike other panna cottas I've had before, that can be kind of gelatinous, this was pure buttermilk heaven.

And the strawberries that accompanied it were sweet, and I think they had probably added a little extra sugar.

But it was the perfect way to end our meal.

McCalman: Yes.

Sbrocco: You agree?

Alcantara: Like Ashley, we were pretty full, but I was like, "No.

We're having dessert."

McCalman: Power through.

Robertson: Power through.

Alcantara: I had the rhubarb crisp with almond ice cream, and it was delightful.

The ice cream has slivered almonds mixed in, so the soft ice cream has a little crunch.

Robertson: And one thing I'll say about Zuni, too, that I really appreciated is that they paced the courses too.

So I wasn't eating too fast, and everything was just brought out at the right time.

Sbrocco: Continuity is key.

Robertson: Yeah.

Alcantara: I agree with Ashley.

The pacing was just right, and I really appreciated how they split every course into two dishes for us.

Robertson: Yes.

Just really, really beautiful.

George, I want to thank you for the recommendation, because it was a ten-out-of-ten experience.

Sbrocco: It's an iconic place.

Robertson: It is.

McCalman: Yes.

Sbrocco: If you would like to try Zuni Café, it's located on Market Street near San Francisco's Civic Center, and the average tab per person without drinks is around $80.

♪♪ So far today, we've featured some pretty high-profile chefs and restaurants, but now Ashley's excited to share a completely under-the-radar spot.

It's a tiny bakery and deli where the star attractions are fresh from the oven, creatively topped as sourdough pizzas.

Located in North Oakland, it's Nick's Pizza and Bakery.

♪♪ Yapor-Cox: A slice of that?

[ Laughs ] If you look at the historic nature of bakeries, they serve as not only an anchor point for the community, but a place for people to feel their culture reflected.

♪♪ As somebody who grew up in the East Bay, I have a deep connection to sourdough and the culture of baking that we have here in the Bay Area.

So, the pizza that we serve here is thin-crust sourdough.

I always think that it's the most crucial part of pizza because the dough is what hits your tongue first.

♪♪ This is our sourdough starter.

It has the flavor that it does because of the bacteria inside of it.

We have bacteria here in the Bay Area that we don't have anywhere else in the world.

♪♪ Some people compare it to New York-style pizza.

It's baked to order in a gas deck oven.

But we really like to focus on seasonal ingredients.

So we think that those two things meet in the middle and kind of make Oakland-style pizza.

♪♪ We love having a really expansive bakery selection.

We also make handmade bagels in house.

Not a lot of bakeries do because it's a very laborious process.

All the bagels are hand-rolled, boiled and baked, as they should be.

We make build-your-own deli sandwiches.

♪♪ Baking bread can often be focal points or framework for memories that you develop.

We make this garlic cheese bread because it reminds me of a bakery that used to be up on Domingo that was called the Bread Garden.

We cut it in a way that it can be pulled apart.

Sitting there with my dad, tearing off pieces of their garlic-cheese baguette that they used to make.

People my age come up to me and say, "This really reminds me of the bread that I ate at the Bread Garden when I was a little kid."

That's what I was going for!

[ Laughs ] So when we get to see little kids out on the patio here, we know that this place and the food that we make here is gonna be part of their memory of their childhood.

[ Laughter ] Sbrocco: All right, Ashley.

Maybe sort of under the radar and hidden, but what is it that brings you back to Nick's time and time again?

Robertson: Nick's is a neighborhood -- I want to call it an institution, and I want it to be an institution.

They have classic pizzas, but they're also doing things with a twist.

And I come back again and again for the Midnight Special, and that is their mushroom pepperoni pie.

They have a sourdough crust, and you can actually taste the dough.

Some doughs are too fluffy or cakey, and this pizza is consistently cooked and thin.

And when you hold up a slice, it doesn't fall over.

Announcer: I got one of their seasonal pizzas called the Spring Fling.

The za'atar and feta give it a creamy base, the sliced asparagus give it some brine and some crunch, and then the onions give it some acidity, and then the red bell peppers give it a spicy little kick.

And yes, you're right -- The sourdough crust makes it tasty to the last bite.

Sbrocco: So a high ranking in your pizza.

Alcantara: Oh, yeah.

I was delightfully surprised.

And even though it was afternoon, I had to get a morning bun because they make their morning buns with cardamon and sliced pecans.

McCalman: I had the morning bun, and I took a bite.

I was like, "Yes."

It's just the right amount of crispy, that soft pillow on the inside of it when you get to the nucleus, Robertson: The gooey... McCalman: The gooey, and it just breaks apart.

I was like, "Yes, yes, yes."

Robertson: Yeah.

I think Nick's fills a neighborhood niche, too, of deli sandwiches.

Their breads are baked fresh every day.

And that's what really makes a sandwich too.

So the breads, like the ciabatta breads, are just divine.

McCalman: And I found the juxtaposition of this basically fancy bakery masquerading as this kind of come-as-you-are environment -- I found that refreshing.

But I might have some controversial things to say.

Sbrocco: Okay.

That's all right.

McCalman: I found the bagels to be a little on the doughy side, and I ordered a pepperoni slice, and I found it to be just okay.

And so pepperoni slices are my favorite kind of pizza, and I'm a traditionalist when it comes to -- I don't really go off road with my pizza selections.

And so since you go regularly, like, what should I have ordered to kind of fill out the experience?

Robertson: I think you should go, like, the nontraditional route.

I think you'll be surprised by the flavors that they use.

Alcantara: I agree.

At a glance, at the menu, you're like, "These are some funky pies."

But you're right.

The flavors are really balanced.

Robertson: So again, another seasonal pie that they had was an asparagus and hot coppa.

The hot coppa gives it a little bit of a spice and a bite, and then there's a brightness with the asparagus.

And the asparagus itself wasn't mushy.

It was very crisp.

It was a good pie.

Sbrocco: What about salads and any of the starters?

Robertson: I usually go for the Greek salad -- the balance of the salty olives and the feta cheese with the coolness of the cucumbers and the tomatoes.

And one extra touch that Nick's does that I really appreciate on their Greek salad is they add chopped mint.

And so that's a really nice, bright balance to maybe a little bit of a saucier, heavier pizza.

For dessert, we had a salted caramel chocolate mousse.

And that was something that we spread amongst the table.

Extremely rich and beautiful, silky smooth.

And then I glanced over to their refrigerator, and I saw some lemon bars.

And those were so tart, bright, and acidic and another way to kind of clean the palate after, you know, a slice of hearty, warm, cheesy pizza.

And so that's Nick's in general.

There's always something around the corner you're gonna catch your eye and you're gonna want to try.

Sbrocco: Pizza with a chaser of lemon bars!

Robertson: Whoo!

Carbs, carbs, carbs.

[ Laughs ] Sbrocco: Now, do you think this is value, Joyce?

Good for the quality?

Alcantara: Oh, yeah.

The price point was just right.

Super family-friendly.

Super friendly for single people on a budget as well.

[ Laughs ] Sbrocco: Would you go back?

McCalman: I'm curious to try everything that I didn't try the last time, so I would definitely go back.

Robertson: We can go together.

McCalman: Yes.

Sbrocco: If you would like to try Nick's Pizza and Bakery, it's located on Shattuck Avenue in Oakland.

And the average tab per person without drinks is around $15.

♪♪ Looking for more Bay Area bites you've just got to try?

Check out "Cecilia Tries It," online at kqed.org/checkplease.

I have to thank my fabulous guests on this week's show, Ashley Robertson, who swears by the sourdough pies at Nick's Pizza and Bakery in Oakland, George McCalman, who says all hail to the Caesar at Zuni Café in San Francisco, and Joyce Alcantara, who thinks the mapo tofu is magical at Mill Valley's Mamahuhu.

Join us next time, when three more guests will recommend their favorite spots right here on "Check, Please!

Bay Area."

I'm Leslie Sbrocco, and I'll see you then.

Cheers!

And cheers to you.

Cheers!

Robertson: Cheers!

Sbrocco: Whoo-hoo!

Cheers!

Robertson: Cheers.

Sbrocco: Which of these spots do you want to try?

Join our online community and let us know what you think about your experience at any of the places we've featured.

Follow us -- @kqedfood -- and catch up on all the episodes any time, anywhere at kqed.org/checkplease.

Plus explore our brand-new KQED Bay Area Restaurant Guide, where you can discover all the restaurants we visited and sort them by region or cuisine.

Find this new tool at kqed.org/checkplease/map.

Sun: A soft serve is, at least to me, very reminiscent of my childhood, of getting soft serve in the summer.

And then we have some boba that we make fresh every day and we have some Ceylon tea syrup that goes over that and some sesame crunch.

The sesame crunch is a more traditionally Chinese, like, cookie dessert.

It is super tasty, and then on top of that, it is dairy- and gluten-free, which makes it extra special.

♪♪