>> Gene: RIGHT NOW, WE SHIFT OUR ATTENTION TO ONE OF THE MOST  BEAUTIFUL SPOTS IN OUR STATE, THE VALLES CALDERA IN  THE JEMEZ MOUNTAINS.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT  BOUGHT THE LAND IN 2000.

-- THAT SEEMS LIKE A LONG  TIME AGO -- FOR ABOUT $100 MILLION, AND SINCE THEN  ITS MANAGEMENT HAS SEEN SOME COMPLICATIONS.

OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS SITS DOWN WITH  WATCHDOG TOM RIBE OF CALDERA ACTION TO TALK ABOUT ILLEGAL  CATTLE GRAZING, PUBLIC ACCESS, AND INPUT AND THE  FUTURE CHALLENGES FACING THE PRESERVE.

>> Laura: TOM RIBE, WELCOME AND THANKS FOR JOINING ME.

>> Ribe: THANKS.

IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>> Laura: SO THE VALLES CALDERA IN THE JEMEZ  MOUNTAINS HAS A LONG, LONG, LONG HISTORY WITH HUMANS,  BUT WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE LAST 23 YEARS.

IN 2000, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT BOUGHT THE VALLES CALDERA  FROM A FAMILY, FROM PRIVATE LANDOWNERS, AND AT FIRST IT  WAS MANAGED BY A TRUST, THEN IT WAS MANAGED BY THE U.S.  FOREST SERVICE, AND NOW THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE.

IN TERMS OF PUBLIC LANDS, IS THAT USUAL?

WHY ARE THINGS SO COMPLICATED WITH THIS PIECE  OF LAND?

>> Ribe: WELL, IT ALL GOES  BACK TO THE LATE SENATOR PETE DOMENICI WHO -- IN  1998-1999, THERE WERE A BUNCH OF PUBLIC PEOPLE WHO  WERE PUSHING TO HAVE THE PROPERTY PURCHASED BY THE  FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND MADE INTO SOME KIND OF A PUBLIC  LAND, AND THAT WAS RESISTED SOMEWHAT BY SENATOR DOMENICI  WHO SAID AT THE TIME THAT THERE WAS TOO MUCH PUBLIC  LAND IN NEW MEXICO ALREADY.

SO HE CAME UP WITH THIS SORT  OF CATO INSTITUTE QUASI-LIBERTARIAN MODEL,  WHICH WAS THE TRUST.

SO HE AGREED TO BUY IT.

AND SENATOR BINGAMAN WORKED VERY HARD TO MAKE IT A  BALANCED EXPERT MEANT.

SO IT WAS AN EXPERIMENTAL  LAND REGIMEN THAT WENT ON FROM 2000 TO 2014.

AND ULTIMATELY THE LAND WAS OWNED BY THE FOREST SERVICE  DURING THAT TIME.

SO THEY WERE THE OWNERS IN  THE BACKGROUND THERE, BUT THE TRUST WAS THIS FUNNY  MANAGEMENT SCHEME THAT WAS AN EXPERT MEANT.

AND WE, WE MEANING CALDERA ACTION, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE  WHO WERE INVOLVED IN GETTING IT PURCHASED WERE NOT HAPPY  WITH THE TRUST AND DIDN'T THINK IT WAS SUSTAINABLE.

IT HAD A LOT OF PROBLEMS, AND I WON'T GO INTO THAT.

BUT IN ANY CASE, WE WORKED WITH SENATOR BINGAMAN AND  THEN WITH SENATOR HEINRICH AND ULTIMATELY GOT THE PLACE  TRANSFERRED TO THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE IN 2014.

SO THAT WAS A GREAT SUCCESS, AND WE'VE BEEN VERY PLEASED.

I THINK OVER THE LONG RUN, THAT'S THE BEST PLACE FOR  IT.

>> Laura: SO CATTLE GRAZING  IS STILL ALLOWED WITHIN THE TRUST UNDER THE ENABLING  LEGISLATION, BUT YOUR GROUP AND OTHERS ARE WORRIED ABOUT  CATTLE THAT ARE GRAZING ILLEGALLY WITHIN THE  PRESERVE.

WHAT'S THE COMPLICATION WITH  THAT?

>> Ribe: SO WHAT HAPPENED  WAS, BACK WHEN IT WAS UNDER THE TRUST, THEY WERE CALLING  IT A WORKING RANCH.

AND ANYWAY, THAT WAS A  PERSPECTIVE THAT WAS PART OF THE TRUST.

WHEN WE GOT IT TRANSFERRED TO THE PARK SERVICE, SENATOR  TOM UDALL WANTED TO HAVE SOME AMOUNT OF LIVESTOCK  GRAZING TO CONTINUE.

SO THE PARK SERVICE FENCED  OFF ONE SMALL AREA THAT'S AWAY FROM ALL THE STREAMS  AND SAID, THIS IS A LEGAL GRAZING AREA.

AND THEY ACTUALLY HAVE BEEN USING THAT AS A GRAZING AREA  AND CHARGING ABOUT $20 AN ANIMAL UNIT MONTH IN THAT  AREA, WHICH IS BASICALLY ABOUT 20 TIMES MORE THAN  RANCHERS PAY ON U.S. FOREST SERVICE LAND ACROSS THE  FENCE.

THE REST OF THE PRESERVE,  OUTSIDE OF THAT LITTLE FENCED AREA, IS CLOSED TO  CATTLE GRAZING.

SO WHAT WE'VE BEEN CONCERNED  ABOUT IS COWS THAT ARE COMING IN OFF U.S. FOREST  SERVICE LAND TO THE NORTH OF THE PRESERVE THROUGH FENCES  THAT ARE DOWN, THROUGH FENCES THAT ARE CUT  SOMETIMES, THROUGH THAT KIND OF THING, AND THEY ARE  GRAZING IN AREAS THAT HAVE BEEN -- A GREAT DEAL OF  EFFORT HAS BEEN MADE TO RESTORE THESE AREAS FROM  PAST OVERGRAZING, FROM BACK WHEN IT WAS PRIVATE LAND.

SO WE'RE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THAT AND WORKING HARD  WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER ORGANIZATIONS TO GET THOSE  CATTLE OUT OF THERE PERMANENTLY, AND IT'S  TURNING OUT TO BE A VERY COMPLICATED PROCESS.

>> Laura: SO YOU HAVE SOME OTHER CONCERNS, AND I'D LIKE  TO TALK ABOUT ACCESS.

WHO CAN VISIT THE PRESERVE?

HOW DO YOU VISIT THE PRESERVE?

AND WHAT ARE YOUR CONCERNS ABOUT THE PUBLIC'S ABILITY  TO COME TO THE PRESERVE?

>> Ribe: WELL, THE NATIONAL  PARK SERVICE IS, OBVIOUSLY, A FEDERAL AGENCY.

THEY MANAGE ALL OF THE MOST VALUABLE LANDS IN THE UNITED  STATES.

YOSEMITE, YELLOW STONE, THE  NATIONAL MALL IN WASHINGTON, D.C., LOTS OF HISTORIC  SITES, AND OTHER PARKS AROUND NEW MEXICO.

THEY ARE -- THIS IS OUR LAND.

THIS IS LAND THAT WE, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, ALL OWN  TOGETHER.

OUR CONCERN HAS BEEN, WE  WANT THE PUBLIC TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS THE LAND EASILY,  BUT WE'RE ALSO CONCERNED AND MINDFUL OF THE SAME THING  THAT THE PARK SERVICE IS UP THERE, THEY DON'T WANT THE  PLACE TO JUST BE OVERRUN WITH HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS  OF PEOPLE JUST RUNNING AROUND DOING ANYTHING THEY  WANT ANY TIME THEY WANT.

WE AGREE WITH THE PARK  SERVICE THAT THERE SHOULD BE RESTRICTIONS TO PROTECT THE  PLACE.

WE'RE JUST A LITTLE  CONCERNED RIGHT NOW THAT THE RESTRICTIONS ARE A LITTLE  BIT TOO TIGHT.

THEY HAVE A GATE THAT'S UP  BY THE HIGHWAY, AND THAT GATE IS ONLY OPEN FROM  9:00 TO 5:00, AND THIS IS A HUGE PRESERVE.

IT'S AN 89,000-ACRE PRESERVE.

SO IF YOU, AS A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC, WANT TO GO WAY  OUT IN THE BACK COUNTRY SOMEWHERE, IT'S TOUGH TO GO  OUT THERE AND THEN BE BACK TO THE GATE BY 5:00 WHEN  THEY CLOSE THE GATE.

SO WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT  THAT.

ANOTHER THING THEY'RE DOING  IS, THEY'RE NOW MAKING IT SO A LOT OF THE RESERVATIONS TO  GO INTO THE LARGEST PART OF THE PRESERVE WILL NOW BE  ONLINE THROUGH RECREATION.GOV.

WE'RE CONCERNED THAT THERE'S NOT ENOUGH OPPORTUNITY FOR  THE PUBLIC AND THAT TOO MANY OF THE PUBLIC WHO WANT TO  COME SPONTANEOUSLY -- LIKE IF YOU DRIVE UP FROM  ALBUQUERQUE AND JUST WANT TO SHOW UP, YOU MAY ENCOUNTER  SOME RESTRICTIONS GOING INTO THE BACK COUNTRY.

THAT BEING SAID, THE MAJORITY OF THE VALLES  GRANDE, WHICH IS THE BIG VALLEY THAT'S VISIBLE FROM  THE HIGHWAY, WILL NOW BE OPEN WITHOUT ANY PERMITS OR  THAT KIND OF THING.

AGAIN, WE STILL HAVE THE  GATE PROBLEM FOR THAT AREA, BUT THE PUBLIC WILL BE ABLE  TO COME TO THAT AND GO HIKING OR SKIING OR FISHING  OR WHATEVER, WITH NO PROBLEM.

SO I WOULD SAY OVERALL, IT'S PUBLIC LAND.

THERE ARE TRAILS YOU CAN ACCESS DIRECTLY OFF THE  HIGHWAY WITH NO PERMIT, AND YOU'RE WELCOME 20 DO THAT.

IT'S YOUR LAND, SO PEOPLE SHOULD NOT FEEL RESTRICTED.

>> Laura: SO WE SHOT A SHOW THERE IN 2017, AND I KNOW  THERE ARE SCIENTISTS WHO ARE DOING WORK OUT THERE, AND  CERTAINLY I'VE SEEN MOVIE AND TV PRODUCTIONS, LIKE  LONGMIRE, SO I KNOW WHAT THE VIEWS LOOK LIKE.

AND EVEN THOUGH I FEEL LIKE I AM PRETTY PUBLIC LANDS  SAVVY, WHETHER I HAVE TRIED TO PLAN A TRIP BY LOOKING AT  THEIR WEBSITE OR JUST SHOWING UP, LIKE, I DON'T  FEEL LIKE I KNOW HOW TO ACCESS WHAT THE PRESERVE  OFFERS, AND I'M WONDERING IF YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE FOR ME.

AND I FEEL LIKE, IF I CAN'T DO THAT AND I DON'T FEEL  COMFORTABLE, THERE ARE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF  NEW MEXICANS WHO DON'T.

>> Ribe: YES, AND I WOULD  SAY, BIG PICTURE, THE PARK SERVICE, THE NATIONAL PARK  SERVICE RIGHT NOW, IS DOING A GENERAL MANAGEMENT PLAN  FOR THE PLACE AND ONCE THAT'S APPROVED AND IN  PLACE, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT MORE TRAIL  SIGNAGE, A LOT MORE INTERPRETIVE SIGNS  EXPLAINING THE VOLCANISM AND THE NATIVE HISTORY AND THAT  SORT OF THING UP THERE.

SO I THINK THINGS WILL GET  BETTER, BUT FOR RIGHT NOW, ONE HAS TO GO TO THE  VISITOR'S CENTER AND GET SOME DIRECTION.

YOU'RE ALSO WELCOME TO JUST GO OFF IN ANY DIRECTION YOU  WANT, ESPECIALLY IN THE GRASSLANDS, AND YOU'RE  UNLIKELY TO GET LOST.

BUT I THINK THERE WILL BE  MORE DIRECTION AND MORE SIGNAGE IN THE FUTURE ONCE  THEIR GENERAL MANAGEMENT PLAN IS DONE.

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO  GO MEET THE RANGERS, TELL THEM WHAT YOU WANT TO DO,  AND THEY CAN GIVE YOU SOME POINTERS ON WHERE TO MOST  EASILY DO THAT.

>> Laura: AND JUST LASTLY,  YOU MENTIONED THE RECREATION.GOV RESERVATION  SYSTEM AND A MANAGEMENT PLAN.

ARE THESE THINGS THAT THE PUBLIC CAN WEIGH IN ON, OR  HOW DO WE GET MORE INVOLVED?

>> Ribe: THAT'S A VERY GOOD  QUESTION.

THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE  HAS A PHILOSOPHY AND A DIRECTION FROM THE  DIRECTOR'S OFFICE IN WASHINGTON THAT THEY'RE  SUPPOSED TO INVOLVE THE PUBLIC IN ALL OF THEIR MAJOR  DECISIONS, AND WE'VE BEEN VERY CONCERNED THAT, FOR  EXAMPLE, THIS RECREATION.GOV AND PERMIT SYSTEM FOR  GETTING INTO THE BACK COUNTRY DIDN'T HAVE ANY  PUBLIC INVOLVEMENT.

IT MAY BE THAT THEY WILL  HAVE THAT HAPPEN PRETTY SOON, WE HOPE.

AND IN TERMS OF THE GENERAL MANAGEMENT PLAN, THEY WILL  HAVE PUBLIC COMMENT PERIODS WHERE PEOPLE CAN TUNE INTO  THAT AND TALK ABOUT THAT.

I THINK THAT WILL BE  SOMETIME IN THE NEXT SIX MONTHS THAT WE'LL GET OUR --  NEXT SIX MONTHS TO ONE YEAR.

I'M HOPING IT'S SOONER.

THE SOONER THEY GET THEIR GENERAL MANAGEMENT PLAN  DONE, THE BETTER FOR ALL OF US, BECAUSE IT WILL REALLY  MAKE THE MANAGEMENT OF THE PLACE VERY COHESIVE AND MORE  PROFESSIONAL, MORE LIKE A NATIONAL PARK THAT YOU  VISITS ELSEWHERE.

>> Laura: RIGHT.

WELL, THANK YOU, TOM.

I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN A  WATCHDOG FOR A LONG TIME ON THE CALDERA, AND I SURE  APPRECIATE IT.

>> Ribe: I'M HAPPY TO DO  IT.

I DO IT   FOR THE PEOPLE OF NEW MEXICO AND FOR ALL  AMERICANS.

>> Laura: THANKS, TOM.