>> SO YOU ARE A FEMINIST.

HOW DOES THAT GO OVER IN THE MUSLIM WORLD?

>> SO I USUALLY DON'T'S START WITH THE WORD FEMINIST BUT I DO USE THAT WORD TO DESCRIBE MYSELF BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE OWN A WORD THAT UNITES US.

BUT THE WAY I OFTEN DESCRIBE ISLAM IS A REVOLUTION FOR WOMEN AND THE FIRST PERSON TO ENTER ISLAM WAS A WOMAN.

WHEN THE QURAN WAS COMPILE WILLED, AND THE TRIBES DECIDED WHO TO GIVE IT TO, IT WAS A WOMAN.

[♪♪] >> HELLO I'M BONNIE ERBE WELCOME TO TO THE CONTRARY.

THIS WEEK, A CONVERSATION WITH MANAL OMAR.

MANAL FOUNDED A NEW ORGANIZATION CALLED ACROSS RED LINES AND WE WILL BE TELLING YOU WHAT THAT IS ABOUT AND IT'S EXCITING.

AND SHE IS ALSO A TRUMAN NATIONAL SECURITY FELLOW.

AND SHE IS A THOUGHT LEADER WHEN IT COMES TO ISSUES AT THE INTERSECTION OF GENDER, EQUALITY AND ISLAM.

WELCOME, MANAL AND FREQUENT TO THE CONTRARY PANELIST AS WELL.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> ACROSS RED LINES WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

>> IT IS A COMPANY THAT I JUST LAUNCHED THAT LOOKS AT PROVIDING WOMEN PARTICULARLY MUSLIM WOMEN BUT WOMEN OF FAITH IN GENERAL WITH A SAFE SPACE TO EXPLORE SEXUALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS LENS.

>> AND NO SUCH THING EXISTS?

>> WELL THERE'S DIFFERENT WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS ACROSS THE ISLAMIC WORLD AND A LOT I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH BUT FROM MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WHEN I WENT THROUGH MY DIVORCE I HAD QUESTIONS ABOUT MY SEXUALITY ABOUT MY FAITH AND MY ROLE AS A WOMAN'S ACTIVIST WHEN IT SEEMS LIKE THEY WERE AT CONTRADICTION AND I LOOKED FOR WORKSHOPS AND BOOKS AND THERE WASN'T ANYTHING.

AND IT WAS ALMOST A POINT OF DESPERATION.

I SPENT THE LAST THREE YEARS DOING THE RE7 FOR MYSELF.

AND THAT INSPIRED ME.

WHY DON'T I SHARE IT AND IT LAUNCHED ACROSS RED LINES.

>> I BELIEVE THE LACK OF CONVERSATION ABOUT SEXUALITY HAS CRIPPLED OUR COMMUNITY.

>> WHEN I ASK PEOPLE WHAT IS YOUR IDEA ABOUT GETTING TO KNOW SOMEONE FOR THE PURPOSE OF MARRIAGE THEY USE WORDS LIKE COURTING, TALKING.

>> OPEN HONEST DISCUSSIONS ABOUT SEXUALITY IS A RED LINE THAT THE MOST POWERFUL MUSLIM WOMEN WILL NOT CROSS.

I WANT TO CROSS IT.

>> TELL ME ABOUT, HAVE YOU BEEN BESIEGED WITH INQUIRES FROM WOMEN WHO WANT TO KNOW MORE?

WHAT IS THE AVERAGE ABOUT SEX AND SEXUALITY HERE IN THE U.S. MUSLIM WOMEN, WHAT IS THEIR LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE?

>> I MEAN, YOU KNOW IT'S VERY HARD AS YOU KNOW TO SPEAK ABOUT WOMEN AS A MONOLITH AND MUSLIM WOMEN IN GENERAL AND ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU COME TO AMERICAN MUSLIM WOMEN BECAUSE THERE IS A DIVERSE CULTURAL BACKGROUND AS WELL.

BUT OVERWHELMINGLY, IT'S JUST VERY MALE DOMINATED ININTERPRETATIONS WHEN IT COMES TO ANYTHING INVOLVING WOMEN IN ISLAM.

THERE'S BEEN STRONG SUCCESS IN THE LAST 20 YEARS ON RAISING THE RIGHTS ISSUES.

WHAT HAS NOT HAPPENED IS THE CONVERSATION ON SEXUALITY FROM A SEX POSITIVE LENS.

WE HAVE HAD GREAT ORGANIZATIONS TACKLING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND TACKLING SEXUAL ABUSE IN THE MOSQUE WE HAVE HAD ORGANIZATIONS STEP UP IN THE LAST DECADE IN AMERICA.

AND IN THE WORLD.

BUT THAT SEX POSITIVE CONVERSATION WHICH I ARGUE IS AN ESSENTIAL PART OF ISLAM BECAUSE ISLAM TALKS ABOUT HOW YOU CONNECT TO THE DIVINE IN ALL YOUR SENSES IS A MISSING GAP.

WHEN WE ARE FOCUSING ON THE EXPLOITATION AND THE ABUSE, THEN WE LOSE THE OTHER ANGLE ON WOMEN'S ISSUES THE JOY AND THE PLEASURE AND RESILIENCE.

MY HOPE IS WE CAN BUILD THAT SIDE THROUGH THIS LENS ON TALKING ABOUT SEXUALITY.

>> WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE ISLAMIC COMMUNITY IN AMERICA IS MORE FORWARD THINKING THAN IN NORTH AFRICA OR SOUTH ASIA?

>> I WOULD SAY THE OPPOSITE.

I WAS RAISED HERE.

I WAS TAUGHT ISLAM THROUGH THE SYSTEM HERE.

AND VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN THE AMERICAN MUSLIM COMMUNITY AND I'M GRATEFUL FOR IT BECAUSE IT GAVE ME AN IMPORTANT PART OF MY BACKGROUND.

BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL I STARTED TRAVELING THE WORLD AND I SAW HOW RICH AND OPEN ISLAM IS.

AND MY PERSONAL THEORY IS THAT WE GET FROZEN IN THE TIME THAT OUR PARENTS LEFT.

I WAS RAISED IN A 1960s PALESTINE, WHERE IF IF YOU GO TO PALESTINE OR WHERE PEOPLE ARE FROM THERE IS A HUGE WIDE OF INTERPRETATIONS A HUGE WIDE THE WAY THE RELIGION IS PRACTICED.

HERE IT'S ALMOST LIKE WE ARE FROZEN IN TIME.

>> HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR EXAMPLE THAT IN NIGERIA WHERE BOKO HARAM IS KIDNAPPING SCHOOL GIRLS AND GIRLS ARE NOT IN SCHOOL ANYMORE THEIR PARENTS ARE AFRAID TO SEND THEM HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THEY ARE MORE LIBERATED, IF YOU WILL, MORE PROGRESSIVE THAN AMERICAN MUSLIM WOMEN WHO ARE LAWYERS AND DOCTORS AND UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS AND C.E.O.S, THAN WHEN COMPARED WITH OTHER COUNTRIES?

>> I WOULD DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE INTERPRETATIONS AND THE SCHOLARSHIP AND THE STATUS OF WOMEN.

THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT.

WITH THE STATUS OF WOMEN JUST BY DEFAULT OUR ACCESS TO EDUCATION AND HEALTHCARE WE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE BETTER.

I WAS LOOKING AT THE ISLAMIC INTERPRETATION LENS AND THAT TENDS TO BE FROZEN IN TIME.

WE DON'T HAVE THE ACCESS.

AND I THINK IN AMERICA -- >> EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU MEAN.

>> AN EXAMPLE, WHEN I WAS IN NIGERIA I WAS ABLE TO MEET WITH ISLAMIC SCHOLARS FOR ACROSS RED LINES, AND TO REALLY PUSH THEM ON CERTAIN ISSUES THAT MAY TROUBLE ME FROM A WOMEN'S PERSPECTIVE.

ON THE WITNESSES OR ON WHAT ISIS IS USING IN TERMS OF THEIR RECRUITMENT STRATEGIES.

SO A LOT OF THE TIMES IF I HAVE THOSE TYPE OF CONVERSATIONS HERE WHAT I GET IS READ THE SCHOLARSHIP THAT IS ALREADY IN THE PAST.

WHEREAS WHAT YOU WILL FIND IN SOME NOT IN ALL CONTEXT AND ALL RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS BUT I HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE IN YEMEN IF YOU FIND PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE RELIGION AND THE SCRIPTURE YOU CAN DECONSTRUCT THE LAWS.

AND THE WAY THAT SOMEONE EXPLAINED IT TO ME WHICH WAS BRILLIANT IS ISLAM DOESN'T NECESSARILY NEED A REFMATION, BECAUSE IT IS A LEGAL-BASED SYSTEM AND THE VALUES WILL NOT CHANGE BUT FROM THE BEGINNING ISLAM ANTICIPATED THE LAWS TO CHANGE.

AND THE LAWS SHOULD CHANGE WITH PEOPLE AND THAT IS WHAT THE SCHOLARS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING.

>> LET'S GO BACK AND TALK ABOUT HOW THAT IMPACTS THE AVERAGE WOMAN IN THE U.S.

VERSUS THE AVERAGE WOMAN IN THE PHILIPPINES OR SOMEWHERE ELSE IN SOUTH ASIA OR NORTH AFRICA.

MY EXPERIENCE AND I'VE BEEN TO 70 SOME ODD COUNTRIES IS THAT WOMEN ARE WAY MORE REPRESSED IN THEIR DAILY LIVES.

SO THAT IS WHAT I WAS GETTING AT.

>> IN TERMS OF DAILY LIVES, ABSOLUTELY.

I WAS THINKING MORE IN TERMS OF THE AMMUNITION TO PUSHBACK ON THE SPECIFIC CONVERSATION ON SEXUALITY.

THAT AMMUNITION IS WHAT WE ARE LACKING.

>> THE WOMEN THERE ARE TREATED IN MANY COUNTRIES NO BETTER THAN CHATTLE, REALLY.

>> WORSE.

>> WOMEN WERE TREATED IN BIBLICAL TIMES.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> SO WHEN YOU -- YOU ARE A FEMINIST >> YES, ABSOLUTELY.

>> WHEN YOU TELL PEOPLE OR SPEAK TO AN AUDIENCE OF MUSLIMS HERE AND OVERSEAS, HOW DO THEY TAKE THAT?

>> SO I USUALLY DON'T START WITH THE WORD FEMINIST BUT I DO USE THE WORD TO DESCRIBE MYSELF BECAUSE I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE OWN A WORD THAT UNITES US.

BUT THE WAY I OFTEN DESCRIBE ISLAM IS A REVOLUTION FOR WOMEN AND THE FIRST PERSON TO INTER ISLAM WAS A WOMAN THE FIRST MARTYR WAS A WOMAN, WHEN THE TRIBES DECIDED WHO TO GIVE IT TO, IT WAS A WOMAN.

SO I USE THAT AS THE ENTRY POINT WITH THE RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS SAYING WITH THE POINT OF PRIDE OF HOW REVOLUTIONARY ISLAM WAS TO WOMEN.

AND USUALLY THEY GET EXCITED AND SHARE THEIR OWN STORIES AND I ASK THEM WHEN DID WE LOSE IT?

BECAUSE WE LOST IT?

AND THAT CAN OPEN UP THE CONVERSATION AROUND FEMINISM AND SEXUALITY AND THIS ARGUMENT OF SAYING ISLAM WAS THE ORIGINAL MOVEMENT FOR A LOT OF THESE COMMUNITIES AND IT GOT LOST HOW DO WE RECLAIM IT.

AND IT TAKES AWAY THE DEFENSIVE POSTURE IN THE WORLD OF ISLAMOPHOBIA, DEMANDING APOLOGY IT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO COME BACK TO IT FROM A PLACE OF PRIDE WHICH IS HOW I RECONNECTED WITH MY RELIGION WAS FROM THE PLACE OF PRIDE.

>> HOW ARE YOU GETTING THE WORD OUT?

>> JUST BASIC WORD OF MOUTH AND TRYING TO RAISE AWARENESS.

WE DID WORKSHOPS.

IN NIGERIA, THE UNIVERSITY INVITED ME TO COME AND SPEAK.

I'M TRYING TO BE KEEN ON IT'S DEMAND-DRIVEN.

I DO NOT GO OUT AND ADVOCATE.

I JUST PROMOTE.

I PRODUCE MATERIAL.

I HAVE A SEX COLUMN ON MUSLIM GIRL.NET FOR YOUNG MUSLIM WOMEN TO ACCESS.

THOSE WHO REACH OUT TO ME ARE THOSE I RESPOND TO.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT IT IS SUCH A SENSITIVE TOPIC NOT ONE THAT I DO ADVOCACY AROUND.

I CREATE SAFE SPACE AND ALLOW PEOPLE TO COME TO.

>> AND YOU WOULD SAY THAT IN TERMS OF EVEN IN THE UNITED STATES THE TERMS THE LEVEL OF EDUCATION THAT MUSLIM GIRLS IN THIS CASE ARE GETTING, ABOUT SEX EDUCATION AND ABOUT SEX, ABOUT THE BIOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS, EVERYTHING, YOU WOULD SAY IS LOW?

>> THE LEVEL IS VERY LOW AND IT SEEMS TO BE GETTING WORSE.

AND I THINK THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE IS THAT THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE, INCLUDING OUR TOP WOMEN LEADERS, INCLUDING ARE FOCUSED ON FIGHTING ISLAMOPHOBIA.

AND SO MUCH OF THE FOCUS HAS BEEN EXTERNAL THAT WE HAVE NOT HAD THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE INTERNAL GROWTH TO TAKE PLACE.

>> AND SPEAKING OF EXTERM REACTION YOU WEAR A HEAD SCARF ALL THE TIME.

WHAT REACTION DO YOU GET FROM AMERICANS WHEN YOU ARE OUT AND ABOUT?

>> I MEAN, OVERALL, IT'S BEEN THERE'S BEEN MORE TENSE.

AS YOU PROBABLY HEARD OVER THE SPRING THERE WAS AN ATTACK IN OUR MOSQUE IN YOUNG MUSLIM WOMAN WAS KILLED.

AND SO THAT HITS HOME FOR A LOT OF US.

IT'S ALMOST -- IT ALMOST BECOMES IRRELEVANT WHAT THE REALITY IS BECAUSE WE ARE LIVING IN A CONSTANT FEAR.

WHY I'M TRYING TO HELP SHIFT US AWAY FROM A PLACE OF FEAR.

IT'S BEEN A DIFFICULT TIME AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS AND ONE OF THE QUESTIONS I GET SHOULD I TAKE OFF THE SCARF?

>> WHAT DO YOU SAY?

>> ALMOST ALL THE RESPONSES THEY NEED TO TRUST THEMSELVES.

NOBODY CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION EXCEPT THEMSELVES.

I HELP THEM GET IN TOUCH WITH THEIR OWN INTUITION BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE DIVINE SPEAKS TO US.

AND EACH WOMAN HAS A DIFFERENT ANSWER.

>> ISN'T IT SEEN AS A RADICAL MESSAGE BY AMERICAN MUSLIMS AND CERTAINLY BY NOT MUSLIMS BUT EXTREMISTS DO YOU WORRY ABOUT ANY GETTING ATTACKED OR BY SAYING THAT SEXUALITY SHOULD BE ENJOYED, WOMEN SHOULD HAVE IT, SHOULD OWN THEIR OWN SEXUALITY AND IT IS A WAY OF GETTING IN TOUCH WITH THE DIVINE, DOESN'T THAT MAKE SOME MEN ANGRY?

>> I WILL BE HONEST THIS TRIP TO NORTHERN NIGERIA AND THIS PROJECT IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE SCARIEST THAT I'VE DONE IN A LONGTIME.

I WAS THERE JUST RIGHT AFTER THE BOKO HARAM GIRLS WERE RELEASED BY BOKO HARAM.

IT WAS A VERY EXCITING TIME TO BE THERE AS A SMALL WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY WAS OPENING UP.

BUT THIS PROJECT AND YOU KNOW THE WORK THAT I'VE DONE WHICH INCLUDES IRAQ, SOUTH SUBBAN THIS IS THE ONE THAT FRIGHTENS ME THE MOST.

I'M NOT UNAWARE OF THE CHALLENGE THAT COMES.

AND I WOULD SAY NOT JUST MUSLIM WOMEN BUT THE QUESTION ON WOMEN OWNING THEIR SEXUALITY AND AGAIN, FROM A PLACE OF CONNECTING WITH THE DIVINE, IS A VERY HIT ON PARTICIPATE ARKY.

I DON'T THINK IT'S ONLY MUSLIM MEN ANYONE INVESTED IN PATRIARCHKY WOULD BE UPSET.

>> HOW WOULD YOU DEAL WITH IT IF YOU WERE THREATENED?

>> I HAVE BEEN THREATENED.

IN NORTHERN NIGERIA I WAS TOLD YOU CANNOT TAKE THAT ROAD TRIP.

AND THEY WILL NOT DRIVE THAT ROAD.

SO YOU KNOW, I AM AHE NOT MY NORTHEAST ABOUT SECURITY I TAKE SECURITY VERY SERIOUSLY.

I DO EVERY THREE YEARS HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT TRAINING AND TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

I'VE LOST TOO MANY WOMEN FRIENDS AND ALLIES TO SECURITY SITUATIONS.

AS YOU KNOW BACK DOWN IS NOT AN OPTION.

AND AGAIN, I REALLY WORRY THAT WOMEN HAVE BEEN CORNERED INTO A PLACE WHERE WE ARE JUST FIGHTING.

AND I WANT TO BUILD THE JOY AND THE RESILIENCE IN US AGAIN.

THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL PARTS OF THE FEMININE AND IT MAKES ME SAD WE ARE STUCK IN A BATTLE WHICH I HONOR ALL THOSE FIGHTING FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

I DO AS SOMEONE WHO SPENT 20 YEARS THERE AS WELL BUT IT'S TIME FOR US TO UNPLUG FROM THE WAR MACHINE AND CONFLICT MACHINE AND TALK ABOUT THE POWER OF WOMEN FROM A PLACE OF JOY.

THAT IS A HARD SELL ESPECIALLY IN THIS DAY AND AGE BUT SOMEONE HAS TO RING THAT BELL.

>> WHEN YOU SAY AND YOU DO SAY WOMEN ARE GOING BACKWARD.

RATES OF FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION IN THE UNITED STATES ARE GOING UP.

OBVIOUSLY WELL TEEN PREGNANCIES TO THIS POINT HAVE BEEN GOING DOWN.

BUT BIRTHS TO UNWED MOTHERS ARE SKYROCKETING ALL OVER THE PLACE.

SO WHAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS?

WHY ARE WOMEN AND PAY EQUITY IS NOT ADVANCING AS WE THOUGHT IT WOULD?

>> IT'S HARD TO SAY WHAT THE ROOT IS.

BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY DIFFERENT FACTORS THAT ARE PLAYING INTO IT.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'M TRYING TO DO FOR MYSELF IS SAYING OK WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN THE LAST 20 YEARS HAS NOT WORKED.

AND THAT IS NOT A FAIR STATEMENT IT'S WORKED SIGNIFICANTLY AND GOTTEN US FAR.

BUT WE MIGHT WANT TO THINK OF A NEW TRAGEDY TO TAKE US TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

THAT IS WHERE I THINK A LOT OF THE EFFORTS THAT I'M TRYING TO MAKE.

IT'S ALWAYS HARD WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS TO SAY IS IT THE RE7 OR THE INCREASE.

BUT WE KNOW IN MINNEAPOLIS AND DETROIT AND VIRGINIA WE HAVE HAD AN INCREASE OF CONVERSATIONS AROUND FGM AND WE'RE TRYING TO RAISE THE AWARENESS HOW MUCH -- IT'S BEYOND PHYSICAL ABUSE.

IT COMPLETELY DISCONNECTS A WOMAN FROM HER BODY AND THERE ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES OF PRACTICES THAT DO THAT.

WE'RE LAUNCHING THE CONVERSATIONS AND AGAIN WE'RE TRYING TO DO IT FROM A SEX POSITIVE ANGLE.

BUT ALL 100% USING ISLAMIC FRAMEWORK.

SO IT'S ALL BASED ON THE QURAN.

WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT REVIVAL OR REINTERPRETATION, THE ARGUMENT IS IT'S THERE WE JUST DON'T KNOW OUR OWN RELIGION.

>> WHAT INFLUENCE IS THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY HAVING ON WHERE ISLAMIC GIRLS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE GOING?

IS IT PUSHING THEM BACK?

IS IT MAKING THEM MILITANTS MOVING FORWARD?

>> IT IS A COMBINATION.

IT'S HARD TO REALLY SAY.

BUT I THINK THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE ARE STILL STRUGGLING WITH.

YOU HAVE AS WITH MOST SOCIAL MOVEMENTS THE MUSLIM WOMEN ARE AT THE FRONTLINES, CARRYING THE FLAG OF THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE.

WHICH DOES NOT YOU KNOW, IS NOT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE SAW IN UP AT THE FRONTLINES.

BUT WE KNOW THAT IS NEVER A GUARANTEE TO DECISION MAKING OR CHANGE ON A MORE DAY-TO-DAY LEVEL.

SO PATRIARCH LOVES FEMALE MASCOTS.

AND WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF THAT SIDE AS WELL.

ON THE COMMUNITY LEVEL, I WORRY BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE MOSQUE THAT I GO TO WHERE THIS YOUNG WOMAN WAS KILLED, THE QUESTION IS: DO WE BRING BACK MALE COMPANION?

HOW DO WE -- YOU HAVE SELF-DEFENSE CLASSES THAT ARE BEING OFFERED WHICH WORRIES ME BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS I DO WHEN I DO HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT TRAINING IS WARN WOMEN NOT TO HAVE A FALSE SENSE OF CONFIDENCE.

SITUATIONAL AWARENESS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THINKING THAT YOU CAN ATTACK.

THE ISSUES I NEVER THOUGHT WE WOULD HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS IN AMERICA AND LEADING TRAINING FOR YOUNG WOMEN ON THAT.

LIKE WHEN I FIRST WAS LOOKING AT ACROSS RED LINES MY DREAM WAS TO LEAP FORWARD.

AND I'M FINDING US BARELY ABLE TO KEEP STATUS QUO.

>> THAT IS REALLY SAD TO HEAR.

BUT OBVIOUSLY IT'S HAPPENING IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT ISIS.

SO YOU WERE RECRUITED ON-LINE BY A PREDECESSOR TO ISIS WHEN YOU WERE A TEENAGER IN THE 90s.

TELL ME ABOUT THIS.

AND NOW THAT THEY ARE LOSING CONTROL, LOSING GROUND, LITERALLY, IN SYRIA AND OTHER PLACES, AND ESTIMATES I'VE HEARD ESTIMATES THAT THEIR NUMBERS ARE SHRINKING, IS THIS TRUE IN TERMS OF THEIR ON-LINE RECRUITMENT?

>> I MEAN -- >> AND ESPECIALLY OF GIRLS.

>> ONE OF THE KEY ELEMENTS IS IN THE 90s I WAS ON RELAY CHAT AND YOU WOULD FIND THE CHATROOMS AND THERE WAS I THINK IT WOULD BE ENGAGEMENT NEVER USE RECRUITMENT WHERE THEY WERE ENGAGING AND BUILDING AND THEY ARE 20 YEARS AHEAD.

THEY ARE NOT THINKING AND THE THEY SHIFTS AND CHANGES.

I COMPARE IT TO A VIRUS THAT MUTATES AND GETS STRONGER AND BARBARIC IN DIFFERENT FORMS BUT DIFFERENT GRIEVANCES HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONGTIME.

AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT MY THEORY IS THAT AS THEY LOSE TERRITORY THEY GO BACK TO THE ON-LINE AND CYBER RECRUITMENTS MORE STRONGLY.

AND WHAT I'VE SEEN IS IT'S MUCH MORE TARGETED TOWARDS WOMEN AND EMPOWERING FORM TOWARDS WOMEN.

THEY HAVE WOMEN WHO ARE GENERALS LEADING BRIGADES.

AND THEY HAVE WOMEN THAT ARE BEING CALLED INTO THE MOTHERS OF THE BELIEVERS TO HAVE YOU COULD BE THE MOTHER OF THE NEXT SULTAN.

IT IS AN INDICATION THAT THEY ARE PLANNING 15-20 YEARS AHEAD.

THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT RAISING THE NEXT GENERATION OF WARRIORS NOT JUST ABOUT FIGHTING THIS WAR.

AND THIS IS ALWAYS THE CHALLENGE WHEN IT'S IDEOLOGICAL WARFARE.

>> AND WE'VE SEEN MANY THOUSANDS OF EXAMPLES OF YOUNG GIRLS BEING RECRUITED TO ISIS AND SOME OF THEM LATER BEING ABLE TO ESCAPE.

BUT WHAT WOULD MAKE A YOUNG ISLAMIC GIRL WANT TO JOIN?

>> IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I UNPACKED IN THE ARTICLE I WAS WRITING ON CNN BECAUSE I WAS HAVING A HARD TIME ASKING THAT QUESTION ESPECIALLY AFTER THE INTERVIEWS.

IT IS SUCH A BARBARIC FORM OF LIVING.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME OUT ONE FROM THE RECRUITMENT AND THE WOMEN MAKING THE ARGUMENT, IF YOU ARE IN A SMALL VILLAGE IN NORTHERN IRAQ OR SOME REMOTE AREA AND YOU HAVE NO DECISION MAKING CAPACITY ABOUT YOUR LIFE, WHO YOU MARRY, WHO YOU GO TO SCHOOL AND YOU SEE THIS VIDEO WHERE YOU ARE NOT ONLY GOING TO HAVE A DECISION YOU WILL BE IN CONTROL.

AND IN SOME CASES THEY ARE LEADING MEN.

AND SO WHICH LIFE ARE YOU GOING TO CHOOSE?

AND THAT ANGLE OF EMPOWERMENT IS AN ANGLE WE CONTINUOUSLY MISS AND WE ARE GREAT AT DESCRIBING WOMEN AS THE VICTIMS AND NOT IN ANY EMPOWERING WAY.

BUT WE AT LEAST ACKNOWLEDGE THE ROLE AS VICTIM.

WE MISS THE ROLE AS PERPETRATORS.

AND ISIS HAS DEFINITELY FULLY AWARE AND PLAYING UP THE ROLE AS PERPETRATOR TO CONTROL.

WHEN YOU LOOK LIKE WE WERE TALKING ABOUT HOW THE DAY-TO-DAY LIFE IS FOR A WOMAN THEN IT BECOMES A MORE TEMPTING PACKAGE.

AND IN MOST CASES THE WOMEN CHOOSE THE MEN RECRUITING.

THEY CHOOSE WHO THEY MARRY IT'S NOT THE OPPOSITE.

>> SERIOUSLY?

WOMEN CHOOSE THE MEN IN ISIS?

THE MEN HAVE MORE THAN ONE WIFE.

>> YOU CAN STILL CHOOSE TO BE A SECOND OR A THIRD WIFE.

AND AGAIN WHAT THEY HAVE DONE IT'S NOT DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE'VE SEEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY OF THE WHORE AND THE MADONNA.

THEY HAVE THE SEX SLAVES AND THEY HAVE ABSOLUTE BARBARIC ABUSE OF WOMEN IN THE MOST HEINOUS WAYS.

THEY USE SEXUAL VIOLENCE AS A WAY OF BREAKING COMMUNITIES AND THEY HAVE A STRATEGY HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THE MADONNA AND THE ULTIMATE, THE HIGHEST WOMAN.

FROM THE INTERVIEWS THEY ARE LIVING IN PALACES.

THEY HAVE ALMOST EVERYTHING THAT YOU CAN IMAGINE.

THEY ARE TREATED LIKE WIVES OF SULTAN.

WHAT WHAT HAPPENS THEY WILL SAY THIS IS THE GROOM I WANT LIKE I WANT TO BE THE WIFE OF THIS GENERAL.

AND ONE OR TWO WIVES, MOST OF THE RECRUITMENT VIDEOS THE POSTERS THAT THEY HAVE ARE JUST FRIGHTENING.

BUT IT IS A VERY MUCH PROMOTING FOUR WIVES AT THE OPPORTUNITY MALL AND THEY HAVE A DIAGRAM ONE WIFE TWO KIDS.

AND THE TOP OF THE POSTER IS HELP US BUILD THE COMMUNITY.

>> BUT I'VE ALSO READ WITH THE YOUNG MEN THEY DO NOT WANT THEM TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE CHILDREN BECAUSE THAT WILL MAKE THEM WANT TO RISK THEIR LIVES ON THE FIELD OF BATTLE LESS SO.

>> IT'S DIFFERENT STRATEGIES.

IF YOU ARE TRYING TO CREATE THE DIFFERENT WIVES OF THE SULTAN THEN YOU WILL BE MARRYING THEM TO YOUR TOP GENERALS NOT THE YOUNG BOYS FIGHTING THE FIGHT OR THE SUICIDE BOMBERS.

BECAUSE THE GOAL IS REPRODUCTION.

SO, YES, IT IS A DIFFERENCE.

>> ARE THEY REPRODUCING?

YOU ARE SAYING ESSENTIALLY THAT ISIS IS STILL 20 YEARS AHEAD OF US WHEN IT COMES TO ON-LINE RECRUITMENT AND KEEPING BUILDING THEIR NUMBERS.

>> I THINK WHAT -- IT'S HARD BECAUSE AGAIN WHAT MIGHT END UP IN 20 YEARS MIGHT BE A COMPLETE ISIS MIGHT BE THE MODERATE THE SAME WAY THAT PEOPLE NOW LOOK AT AL-QAEDA AND TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE VALUES AND PRINCIPLES THAT THEY LED BY.

WHO THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE A CONVERSATION?

MY WORRY IS WE ARE MOVING TOWARDS MORE AND MORE EXTREME FORMS.

AND SO YOU KNOW, I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK IT WILL BE ISIS IN 20 YEARS.

>> I WISH YOU ALL GOOD LUCK IN EDUCATING YOUNG ISLAMIC GIRLS ABOUT SEX AND ABOUT THEIR RIGHT TO ENJOY SEX.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO THE CONTRARY.

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER @BONNIEERBE OR TO THE CONTRARY AND GO TO OUR WEBSITE WHICH IS PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, PLEASE JOIN US NEXT TIME.

[♪♪] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ON-LINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF TO THE CONTRARY VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.