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Our guest this week is former Democratic Lieutenant Governor John Cherry with his take on the state of politics in our state today.

Our lead story, Lawmakers are on spring break.

What have they left behind since the first of the year?

Around the OTR table, Rick Pluta, Emily Lawler and Bill Ballenger.

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And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thanks very much.

Welcome back to Off the Record on a Thursday morning.

We are taping this week in Studio C. Let's talk about paying to have a child carried by somebody else.

What's going on there Emilly?

Yes.

So the Michigan legislature, the Senate this week passed some bills related to that sort of opening up women's options and families options and kind of carving out this route for surrogacy in Michigan that has been available in other parts of the country for a long time.

We were an outlier, Rick, on this thing.

It was banned.

Yeah, well, she still is.

Yeah.

Michigan was one of the first states in the country in the late 1980s to outlaw the practice because there was a doctor in Dearborn who sort of led the way in creating these contracts.

And now we are among the last of the states, and it appears to be on a path to allow it and to regulate it.

But why was it banned at that time?

I mean, what is the motive?

It was I mean, it was considered unnatural and it was considered by a lot of interests, including the Catholic Church, to be an opportunity to exploit poor women in particular, who might, you know, offer themselves as surrogates for money.

We should say that it's never been illegal.

Surrogacy itself has never been illegal in Michigan.

Only paying surrogates to carry aspect of it was the commercial aspect.

The thing has changed because the Catholic Church was quick to grind out a press release after the Senate took.

They actually said thanks, but no thanks.

Well, it looks like they're probably going to lose because I think probably the trend is to get in sync with the other states.

And I think it's probably going to be expunge.

The idea of paid contracts is not something.

Usually the votes are there.

Yeah.

So and it's going to go to the governor who has said she is looking forward to signing it.

Does this fit into the Democratic plan that we need another proposal three that we can take to the voters in this election year, the female right to decide their own body decisions?

I think that's absolutely a theme of the election.

I don't think it's going to be a physical proposal on our ballot this year.

You know, certainly Governor Whitmer benefited from that in the 2022 cycle as the Democrats up and down the ticket.

I do think that, you know, they're you know, they didn't call it the right to get an abortion amendment.

They called it the Reproductive Freedom Amendment.

And I really do think that as a theme, that's something that Democrats are leaning into up and down the ticket again this cycle.

Right to life of Michigan in the Michigan Catholic Conference think this is a terrible idea to allow paid surrogacy.

They can mount a petition drive to call for a referendum, which is a much easier number of signatures to get than a constitutional amendment.

They could put it on the ballot, but I can't believe they're going to do that.

Well, I doubt it's a political winner.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that it's a political winner.

And I.

Mean, if they do and if they do a petition drive.

Right.

If they do a petition drive and, you know, put a referendum on the ballot.

But, you know, as Emily pointed out, that this has been a theme in Lansing under the trifecta, the Democratic trifecta in the legislature and the governor's office, to create a basically talking point regarding reproductive rights, even if it's not explicitly on the ballot, there is still a record to bring to voters to talk about.

And we should.

Say some Republicans did join Democrats in voting for this.

It's not a strict partizan line issue.

But, you know, I think if you're a Democrat, a Democratic candidate, the cycle you want to keep reproductive health on the front lines.

I think if you're a Republican, maybe you don't.

You know, I think there's some sense that maybe you'd rather talk about the economy or something else.

And also from a policy standpoint that, you know, Michigan was, you know, on the front lines of banning it, but most states allow it.

And it doesn't seem to have created, you know, sort of the sky is falling scenarios that were brought out, you know, in the 1980s early in this.

Excuse me, the EPA down in Washington this week moved out by two years, the deadline for getting a fleet of vehicles.

What's the significance of this here in our state?

Yeah, so really, it's to reduce tailpipe emissions.

This has been a longstanding goal of the Biden administration.

And, you know, it stands that by 2032 automakers will probably have about two thirds of their fleet to be EVs to comply with the rules.

There was some adjustments yesterday to the timeline, a little bit of loosening.

I think the automakers had some really big concerns about the initial proposed timeline.

But, you know, the bottom line is I think that, you know, when you go to purchase a car, when you're looking at GM's lineup or Ford's lineup, you're definitely going to see a lot of EVs in the mix.

Were there any full disclosure happy EV owner here?

But but.

Also.

Wait, I'm going to go.

Last time you were stuck up north and couldn't get juice.

Well, I mean, it.

Really answer the question.

I know you do.

It does change how you plan your trips.

And I don't know that.

Well, actually, I do know that if we didn't also have a gas powered vehicle that an EV would be a would be a good choice for us.

But where it's going to go to is I mean, these targets were going to be difficult, if not impossible, from a commercial aspect to hit.

And so when you're not going to make the target, it's probably a good idea to change the way.

The target had become a political target.

How much of this decision in Washington and they won't admit this, but let me just shorten it was generally about what Mr. Trump has been saying about EVs.

Yeah, last time I checked, 2032 is after the November election.

I agree.

Look, all I can say is I want to be able to keep my gas guzzling fossil fuel car as long as possible.

And so long as they don't let.

Youre looking for exemption?

Yeah.

Make me put some special equipment on my car to reduce my emissions.

I'm okay with this.

It's going to take a long time to phase this in.

And these are and by the way, you know, for people who don't know Bill's car itself is a fossil.

But I mean, these are targets for new vehicle sales that this is a you know, something about whether or not.

But does this take the heat off this issue for the Biden administration to have this breathing room now politically?

You know.

It's a little bit of breathing room, but it's not like they backed off the standard.

The results are going to be the same.

And I think that that's an important part of the Biden administration's message.

And, you know, frankly, I think that we've seen not only Democrats, but some Republicans as well, sort of lean into the economic potential of an EV transition.

And so I do think that, you know, Mr. Trump's messaging has definitely hit on this.

And I think a lot of people are feeling like they can't afford EVs regardless.

But I wouldn't expect that this particular decision is necessarily a response to Trump.

Massaging is to win the election.

Coming up.

Yes, it helps the Biden administration to do this back off a little bit.

And the Trump messaging has been to just, you know, create this this sense of upheaval, discontent, uncertainty among, you know, those those, you know, union manufacturing swing voters.

You want to talk about the auditor general.

The governor proposed cutting the budget by 28%.

Republicans came unglued.

The auditor general, as you might expect, wrote a letter, said we might as well close the shop.

Okay, We're we're done.

He didn't get a heads up at all.

Or general doubt.

Yeah, well, the Auditor General is the.

Arm of.

Literally the legislature to oversee how the executive branch is carrying out the responsibilities given to it by the legislature.

And often times auditor generals have critical things to say about departments that governors are run.

Absolutely.

And look, in many states, the auditor general is elected statewide.

And in Michigan, the auditor general was one of the eight statewide elected offices until the new constitution, the one we have now, The ledger, the delegates to the con con took it away, gave it to the legislature to appoint.

The governor does not appoint the auditor general.

The legislature does the governor hacking away at this thing.

As you just said, the auditor general, which is a nonpartisan office of a bunch of bean counters and green eyeshades, they sit around, they analyze how the executive branch agencies are handling their business, and they say, you know what, you screwed up this.

You screwed up that.

They put out a report and it's sent all over state government to the news media.

And some of it has been very critical of the Whitmer administration for that.

Most of the Auditor General reports that come out and the language is very like you said, it's accountant speak and it's technical will find that there were no report of reportable conditions or if they were, they were insignificant.

The department or the agencies agree with them and they go ahead to fix it.

But those aren't the ones that capture the example.

The State Liquor Control Commission lost $1,000,000 in those exact will.

The people that had that, will you please call the state because they want them.

They want their liquor back.

I mean, there's a perfect example of that.

That doesn't look good, does it?

No.

And that was one that got a lot of attention.

And we're still trying to figure out exactly how that happened.

What it gets down to this, you know, governor proposed this, the legislature disposes.

So she's proposed cutting the budget.

And she says that that line only applies to the budget.

Okay.

Nothing else.

Okay.

But the legislature has got to go along with that.

And the question is, does the legislature control by the same party as the governor, the Democrats in both the House and Senate?

Did they just accede to what the governor wants or do they stand up to the governor and say, look, governor, this is our agency?

Basically, we appoint the auditor general.

They're a watchdog.

Everybody loves them, feels they've got to be there.

And you can't emasculate the auditor general.

And if there is any question that the Auditor General acts as an independent entity within the legislative branch, the fact that both the House and the Senate are controlled by Democrats, the governor is a Democrat and the Auditor General still put out this report that, you know, had had some pretty damning things.

And, you know, to put out there about how the Liquor Control Commission is handing its particular state responsibility in managing the liquor distribution system in the state, which would would shows that it is, in fact, an independent entity.

Well, when you say we can't account for it, which is what the Liquor Control Commission said, that sort of I guess we made a mistake may.

Lead to improvements.

You know, like the agencies really do take this feedback and turn it into more efficient processes.

All right.

The governor was down in Washington, D.C. over the weekend giving a speech to the Gridiron Club.

Emily, you read the speech.

It was just sort of funny.

She's sort of funny.

I think she does great when she's on that sort of national stage bantering with an audience.

And we saw that in the speech.

I hear were the two quotes at the beginning of the speech.

She says to this audience of journalists, for those of you who don't know what the Gridiron Club is, quote I have zero national aspirations.

Okay?

And at the end of the speech, she ends the speech by saying, I'll see you in 2029.

I'll see you all again in 2029.

And she winks at the game.

She had it both ways.

Rookie.

Yeah, I'm not and I might well.

Well, I mean she's only.

29 is after the election of 28.

You'd think she'd say, I'll see you in 2028.

So maybe she's saying, I'll see you in Washington as a member of somebody's cabinet.

Well.

Or she'll just, you know, get a ticket.

But no, but it is, it is classic Whitmer that she is a funny person.

She is a funny person off the cuff.

Although the you know, the the speech to the Gridiron Dinner, obviously was not off the cuff.

And it's the sort of thing that has sort of made her kind of a darling of the national political establishment, not to mention Saturday Night Live.

To put a ribbon on this.

This is a story that is not going away.

So buckle up.

It wasn't going away anyway.

We got to get out.

Here's John Cherry.

Nice to see you again, sir, and thanks for doing OTR.

Good to see all of you.

All right, let's start out with the obvious.

So describe for me in your mind, what is the state of So describe for me in your mind, what is the state of our political game in our state and country as we sit here this our political game in our state and country as we sit here this Thursday morning?

In know general politics has become very divisive.

I actually think in Michigan we're seeing a lot more progress in governance than we do nationally.

But nonetheless, we're a very divided society and that's been reflected in our politics.

And what's the solution?

Oh, well, you know, I think there's some of this as a pendulum effect.

You know, we're we go through periods of times in which there's more social consensus about things, and then we have times of division, and we're in one of those.

I think that's aggravated a little bit by the degree and role that consultants play in politics today.

Election consultants, because they advise and and I am not saying it's inaccurate, but their advice is that you play to division.

You talk about what angers people and that anger tends to be reflected then in how they vote and how we govern.

Let's see what Emily has to ask.

So, you know, one thing that was kind of a hallmark of the Granholm administration was incentives for electric vehicles.

That's something that the state is leaning into heavily.

Again, I'm wondering how you've seen that landscape change over the years and if you think that we will be a hub for EV development here in the state.

Well, I think somebody is going to be at heart because in the end, whether it's quick or whether it's gradual, we're going to be moving to alternative fuel, auto, automobile and electric seems to be the place right now that we're headed.

There's a lot of infrastructure investment that has to be made, but we're going to be moving in that direction.

And the fact that the auto companies are are developing EV fleets tell you that that's where we're headed.

I think Michigan has to get into that game.

I mean, if that's the kind of car we're going to drive, it's the kind of car Michigan's going to have to produce.

Well, what should the role of state government be in doing that?

You know, I mean, throwing state financial incentives at car companies is is obviously controversial.

And we've been having this debate since the 1980s, at least.

And it goes back farther than that.

I mean, you know, we've always been competing, you know, as a legislator back in the early eighties under the Blanchard administration, we were engaged in economic competition.

The incentives always played a role for that, whether it's the auto industry or some other industry, incentives are going to play a role.

There's been a debate over time over the film industry.

I mean, it's it seems that we compete with other states for different types of technical, logical businesses.

And Michigan has an automotive history.

We've got some advantages there.

We ought to be taking care of our advantages.

And that means that we ought to be putting some incentives behind that.

Governor to change the subject.

The Office of Auditor General.

At one time, it was a statewide elected office, but under the current constitution, the last 65 years it's been appointed by the legislature.

So it's really a creature of the legislature.

When you were in the Senate, was it a very valuable tool to you?

Because Governor Whitmer has now proposed cutting the budget of Auditor General dramatically, and a lot of people are yelling bloody murder, that she's trying to emasculate the Auditor general.

What do you think?

Bill you know, I'm not real close that debate, but it it's it's caused me some confusion that I watched it.

As you said, it was a legislative agency and it was in the legislative budget and the legislature was in charge of its budget.

I'm I suspect that this event back in the 1970s and 1980s, the legislature would have legislature would say, you know, we're in charge of our budget, governor.

We'll put the money that we want for the auditor general there.

So I'm confused about this debate.

Why the legislature, if they feel the auditor general's doing the job that they want, that they should be funded, that it just it strikes me unusual that the governor is establishing a funding level for the auditor general.

Well also now that you've got a Democratic trifecta, a Democratic governor, Democratic controlled House and Senate, if the governor says, I want to cut this budget, I can't see the legislature necessarily standing up to her and saying, sorry, Governor, we're going to hold on to the money that we think the auditor general should have.

What do you think?

Well, I served in the trifecta once and I tried and I'm trying to think about what Dominick Giacometti would say to the go.

We should point out.

Remember, this is a this is a clean family program that the governor.

We should point out that back in the day, Dominick Giacometti was the very colorful chair of the House Appropriations Committee from the Upper Peninsula, who had a colorful way of expressing himself.

Well, you know, and you could go to Harry Gass with a with with the Republican trifecta.

He would have he would have taken the same position.

So it comes down to a question of how much the legislature values the auditor general.

If they don't stand up and fund the institution, then they themselves have questions about the effectiveness of the Auditor General.

So he sounds like you're recommending that the legislature ought to stand up and tell the governor, at least when it comes to this particular budget proposal, don't, you know, don't cut it.

Yes.

If they feel the auditor general is important to their functioning well, be ready to be killed was when I was there.

Now, how how it's functioning now?

I really don't know.

It's already become partizan.

As you pointed out, everything is very divisive and polarized in our society, in our politics right now.

The Republicans have picked up the mantle in defense of the Auditor general.

They said this is an outrage.

You can't cut.

The auditor general's a nonpartisan office and this should not happen.

So if the Democrats don't side with the Republicans and they just go along with the governor, they're probably going to win the Democrats and it will be cut the budget for the auditor general.

Don't you think?

Oh, well, if if that's true, I mean, if if the Democratic majority does not feel the auditor general is providing the useful function for them.

Yeah, it's going to it's kind of it's going to it's going to suffer in appropriations debate and be hurt by it.

But again, you know, it all comes down to what services the auditor general is providing to the legislature and whether the legislature values that service.

Governor, let's talk about the next governor's race, which is a long ways down the road.

But already people are positioning, including somebody in your backyard.

What do you know about the sheriff running for governor?

And then let's talk about Mike Duggan.

But, you know, I've I've I've simply not been engaged to that.

And, you know, I what I like is that apparently Democrats have a very strong bench here, that there are a number of candidates who have good experience that seem to be well-respected.

And that bodes well for the Democratic Party to have those those choices available to it.

So I think that's healthy.

You see, I'm not committed to any candidate.

And quite frankly, I have not I've not seen where those candidates have started discussion about that.

I the people really right now are focused on the presidential and the US Senate election.

And I think they're just saying, well, you know, 20, 26 will come when 2026 comes.

Yeah, except they are not.

They are doing stuff behind the scenes, as you well know.

You don't start tomorrow if you want to run for governor.

Now, talk to you about Mike Duggan.

What kind of relationship that the Granholm administration have with him.

Well, I you know, there was both Mike and Governor Granholm came out of the Wayne County operation, and they I know they had a great deal of respect for each other.

They worked very closely on a number of issues.

You know, Mike was at the time the head of the Detroit medical institutions there and did a tremendous job putting that back, back together.

So I think there's always been a lot of respect.

I think because of that relationship, there's been a relationship between Mike Duggan and President Biden.

So I think there's an element of closeness there, a lot of respect.

Let me ask you, Mike Duggan is from obviously Detroit mayor of Detroit.

There have been only two governors in Michigan history that have come from Detroit, Hayes and Pingree and Frank Murphy.

Very hard for somebody coming out of Detroit to be elected governor.

Historically.

Do you think Mike Duggan has a good chance to break that lineage or is he going to be up against the same problems other candidates from Detroit have?

At first, I would note both the case of Pingree and Murphy that they were very highly respected governor, saw those two candidates and resulted in outstanding governors for Michigan.

As I as I read this, there really are three I'm hearing three potential candidates coming out of Detroit, Lieutenant Governor Gilchrist, Secretary of State Benson and Mayor Duggan.

So an excellent chance that somebody from Detroit will be the Democratic nominee for governor.

Those three three running governor, there's also an excellent chance that you're going to have an ugly primary.

Well, you know, it's always a debate about does a primary help or does it hurt?

And in many respects, if you have a primary and it doesn't become too negative, then it then the candidate that emerges is a fairly strong candidate.

You know, Governor Granholm emerged from a Democratic primary and was a strong candidate.

So it didn't hurt the party to have that contest.

That's when she was nominated.

So I don't see necessarily a primary being a detrimental thing.

You know.

On the other hand, there are three candidate aides from Detroit and they split up the vote, somebody outstate like Genesee County Sheriff Swanson or maybe Mark Hackel or somebody like that could squeeze in on the rail.

That's that's a that's a real possibility.

I mean, but that'll make for an interesting primary that'll make your job very interesting, give you something to do for the next couple of years and that I'm I'm sure you're looking forward to that.

Governor.

I promise to get you out.

You've got an appointment coming up.

But can we assume that you don't want to be lieutenant governor again?

Is that a fair assumption?

I don't think I can legally.

Well, you pick somebody you look at, you could get your son to change the law.

Oh.

I don't think so.

I would.

I might disown on CBN.

Governor, It's good to see you again.

Thanks for doing the program, sir.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Have a good day.

All righty.

Also, thanks to our great panel.

See if four more off the record right here next week.

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