♪ ♪ WELCOME BACK OUR GUEST THIS WEEK ONCE MORE SUNSHINE ON STATE GOVERNMENT HE STATE SNORE DEMOCRAT JEREMY MOSS OUR LEAD STORY REPUBLICANS CONTINUE TO CRITICIZE THE NURSING HOME COVID POLICIES ON THE PANEL JONATHAN OOSTING, EMILY LAWLER AND BILL BALLENGER.

SIT IN WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT OFF THE RECORD.

PRODUCTION OF OFF THE RECORD IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING, BUSINESS LEADERS FOR MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN ROAD TO TOP TEN.COM.

AND NOW THIS EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD WITH TIM SKUBICK.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH WELCOME BACK TO THIS EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD AND WE HAVE ON OUR PANEL THIS WEEK JONATHAN EAST AND EMILY LAWLER AND BILL BALLENGER AND THE LEAD STORY HAS TO DO WITH THE SEPARATION AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR AND PUBLIC HEALTH DIRECTOR HAS BEEN BROKEN AND WHY DID THEY BREAK THIS DEAL BETWEEN GORDON AND THE GOVERNOR?

>> THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF BACKLASH OVER THIS DEAL BETWEEN ROBERT GORDON THE FORMER HEALTH DIRECTOR AND THE WITNESS MERADMINISTRATION THROUGH GENERAL COUNSEL MARC TOTTEN THEY MUTUALLY AGREED ON WEDNESDAY TO WAIVE THE CONFIDENTIALITY CLAUSE OF THAT 155,000 SEVERANCE AGREEMENT AND THAT YOU KNOW IS CERTAINLY SOME PEOPLE OBJECTED TO THE AMOUNT OF MONEY AS WELL.

BUT THE FACT THAT IT HAD THAT CONFIDENTIALITY CLAUSE IN IT REALLY DREW A LOT OF CRITICISM AND QUESTIONS OVER TRANSPARENCY AND OPEN GOVERNMENT.

AND ROBERT GORDON PLAYED KEY ROLES IN A NUMBER OF THE GOVERNOR'S COVID ORDERS DEVELOPED BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND AGREED TO WAIVE THIS CONFIDENTIALITY PROVISION BUT YET ON THURSDAY GORDON TOLD THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE THAT HE DIDN'T PLAN TO TESTIFY AS THEY HAD REQUESTED AND SAID HE SUBMITTED A LETTER THAT SORT OF YOU KNOW SAID VAGUE GENERAL THINGS MAYBE THERE WERE SOME POLICY DISAGREEMENTS WITH THE GOVERNOR BUT HE WAS PROUD OF HIS TIME.

AND THE WITNESS MERADMINISTRATION DID NOT OFFER NEW DETAILS EITHER SO WAIVING THIS CONFIDENTIALITY CLAUSE IN PRINCIPLE MIGHT LOOK GOOD BUT IT DIDN'T HAVE ANY PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS YESTERDAY BECAUSE NOTHING CHANGED.

>> EMILY IN THAT ONE PAGER HE SENT TO THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE HE BASICALLY SAID HE AND THE GOVERNOR HAD SOME DISAGREEMENTS AND ALL THE POLICY THEY WERE NOT ON THE SAME PAGE AND THAT WAS BASICALLY IT FOR HIM.

SO NOW THE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO GO AWAY?

>> I WOULDN'T COUNT ON THAT, TIM.

I THINK THAT YOU KNOW THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF SPECULATION AROUND THIS SINCE HIS DEPARTURE IN JANUARY.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF QUESTIONS OBVIOUSLY THE CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT WAS ONE REASON THAT THOSE QUESTIONS WEREN'T BEING ANSWERED.

THAT REASON HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY BUT TO JONATHAN'S POINT THE NEXT BIG QUESTION WHAT IS THE PRACTICAL EFFECT OF THAT AND REPUBLICANS ARE LOOKING AT WAYS TO GET THOSE ANSWERS EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY NOT BE FORTHCOMING AND EVEN THOUGH THIS CONFIDENTIALITY CLAUSE BEING REMOVED DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE ELICITED THOSE ANSWERS FOR THE PUBLIC SO FAR.

SO I WOULD NOT SAY THAT THIS IS A CLOSED BOOK BY ANY MEANS.

I THINK THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS USED THE PHRASE SOMETHING ABOUT HOW THEREIS NOT MORE TO THE STORY HERE.

I WOULD SAY THAT REPUBLICANS ABSOLUTELY THINK THERE IS MORE TO THE STORY HERE AT LEAST FROM WHAT WE HAVE SEEN SO FAR.

>> IS THAT YOUR TAKE, WILLIAM?

>> PRETTY MUCH.

BUT HONESTLY WHAT MIGHT BE DETERMINED IS NOT NECESSARILY GOOD FOR THE REPUBLICANS OR IT WON'T FIT IN TO THEIR GAME PLAN BECAUSE I THINK THERE IS A SUSPICION IN MANY QUARTERS THAT GORDON QUIT OUT OF FRUSTRATION BECAUSE THE GOVERNOR WANTED TO LOOSEN UP, THAT IS WHAT THE REPUBLICANS HAVE ALWAYS WANTED HER TO DO.

SO IF THAT'S WHAT THEY FIND OUT, THAT GORDON WANTED TO KEEP THE STRICTURES ON BE TOUGH IN FIGHTING THE PANDEMIC AND WHITMER DECIDED IT WAS TIME TO LOOSEN UP, ACTUALLY SHE SHOULD BE APPLAUDED BY THE REPUBLICANS.

IS THAT WHAT THEY WANT?

>> THE STICKY WICKED HERE ONTHAN IS THE REPUBLICANS WANT TO DO A DEEP DIVE IN THE GOVERNOR PUBLIC POLICIES VIS-A-VIS TRANSFERRING COVID INFECTED CITIZENS IN THE NURSING HOME SETTINGS AND THERE WERE SAFETY PROTOCOLS IN PLACE.

WHAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO DO IS DRAW A DOT BETWEEN THE MOVING OF THE COVID PATIENTS IN THE NURSING HOMES INFECTING OTHER PATIENTS AND DYING AS A RESULT.

THEY HAVE NO PROOF OF THAT BUT THAT IS WHERE THEY WOULD LIKE TO END UP, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED OFF LINE BUT FROM E-MAILS THAT BRIDGE MICHIGAN GOT THIS WEEK FREEDOM INFORMATION ACT REQUEST WE KNOW GORDON HAD PUSHED A MORE CONSERVATIVE RESTAURANT REOPENING PLAN THAN THE ONE THE GOVERNOR ANNOUNCED.

JUST A WEEK LATER ON JANUARY 22, THE DAY HE RESIGNED.

HE WANTED TO FOR INSTANCE CAPACITY AT A MAXIMUM OF 20 OR 25 PEOPLE IN A RESTAURANT REGARDLESS OF ITS CAPACITY.

AND HE ALSO WARNED THAT REOPENING RESTAURANTS TOO MUCH WOULD LEAD TO SUPER SPREADER EVENTS.

SO HE WAS YOU KNOW CLEARLY PUSHING FOR SOMETHING MORE STRINGENT THAN THE GOVERNOR ANNOUNCED.

NO INDICATION FROM THE E-MAILS THERE WAS A BLOW UP AT ANY GIVEN POINT AND NO INDICATION THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT NURSING HOME POLICY AT THAT POINT WHICH IS THE SMOKING GUN THAT REPUBLICANS ARE LOOKING FOR.

A LOT OF THE CLAIMS RIGHT NOW FROM REPUBLICANS ARE SIMPLY COMPARISONS TO NEW YORK WHERE OF COURSE GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO IS IN TROUBLE FOR UNDER REPORTING HIS STATE DEPARTMENT UNDER REPORTING THE NUMBER OF DEATHS IN NURSING HOMES.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT HAPPENED IN MICHIGAN.

AND, IN FACT, YOU KNOW, LAWMAKERS HAVE HEARD HOURS AND HOURS OF TESTIMONY FROM STATE HEALTH OFFICIALS, FROM NURSING HOME INDUSTRY OFFICIALS, LAST YEAR.

AND THEY DIDN'T FIND ANYTHING EXTREMELY DAMAGING.

I MEAN THERE IS THIS ONE POLICY INITIALLY THAT SUGGESTED OR SEEMED TO ON PAPER MANDATE THAT NURSING HOMES SHOULD ACCEPT ANY TRANSFERS FROM HOSPITALS OF COVID-19 POSITIVE PATIENTS BUT THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS IMMEDIATELY IT TOLD NURSING HOMES NOT TO ENFORCE IT AND THE NURSING HOME INDUSTRY SAID THEY DON'T KNOW OF ANY INSTANCE THAT A NURSING HOME WAS ACTUALLY FORCED TO ACCEPT A PATIENT WHICH IS WHAT DID HAPPEN MORE PREVALENT IN NEW YORK.

>> GO AHEAD.

>> WHERE I THINK THE REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO RUN INTO PROBLEMS ON THE NURSING HOME ISSUE IS JUST THAT YOU KNOW IF THERE WAS A SYSTEMIC UNDER REPORTING LIKE HAD HAPPENED IN NEW YORK YOU WOULD EXPECT MICHIGAN'S NUMBERS TO LOOK DIFFERENTLY THAN THEY DO.

MICHIGAN HAS BEEN BELOW THE NATIONAL AVERAGE BOTH IN NURSING HOME DEATHS AND IN THAT OVER YOU KNOW ELDERLY POPULATION DEATHS.

SO YOU KNOW YOU WOULD EXPECT THAT IF THE NURSING HOME DEATHS WERE BEING COVERED UP THAT THERE WOULD BE ALL THESE UNACCOUNTED FOR DEATHS IN THE ELDERLY POPULATION THAT IS REALLY NOT THE CASE HERE.

SO I THINK THAT IS GOING TO BE TOUGH FOR THEM AND TO BILL'S POINT I THINK THAT REPUBLICANS MAY NOT FIND WHAT THEY WANT IN TERMS OF ROBERT GORDON'S RESIGNATION AND HIS REASONS FOR THAT OVER ALL BUT WHERE I THINK THEY COULD WIN HERE OR YOU KNOW HAVE SOME SORT OF POLITICAL VICTORY IS THAT ALL ALONG THE GOVERNOR HAS BEEN SAYING THAT THESE DECISIONS ARE BASED ON SCIENCE AND DATA.

IF THAT'S NOT WHAT WAS HAPPENING HERE IF ROBERT GORDON WAS LOOKING AT THIS AND SAYING ACTUALLY YOU KNOW THE SCIENCE AND DATA WOULD LEAD ME TO MAKE THIS DECISION, AND THE REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG LIKE WHY MAKE THIS SO SUBJECTIVE, WHY NOT SET THESE METRICS AND BENCHMARKS I THINK THAT THEY COULD SCORE A FEW POINTS THERE AND SORT OF MAKE THE POINT THAT YOU KNOW IF IT'S NOT SCIENCE AND DATA THAT ARE DRIVING THESE DECISIONS, IF IT IS MORE SUBJECTIVE, THAT YOU KNOW, THEY COULD MAKE THE CASE THAT MAYBE THERE SHOULD BE SOME METRICS AND THAT YOU KNOW SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE GOVERNOR AND POSSIBLY HER AGREEMENTS OR DISAGREEMENTS WITH SOME OF HER OWN CABINET MEMBERS SHOULD BE DRIVING THE OPENINGS AND CLOSINGS.

>> BILL, WE LEARNED LATE YESTERDAY THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE LOOKING AT THE POSSIBILITY UNDER SCORE THE POSSIBILITY OF APPOINTING A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO LOOK INTO ALL OF THIS NURSING HOME STUFF TO WHICH SENATOR KURTELL A DEMOCRAT SAYS THERE IS NO WAY TO DO THAT.

SO HERE WE GO.

I MEAN THIS IS GOING TO GET INTERESTING IS IT NOT?

>> IT IS.

I MEAN, THEY ARE TRYING TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF THE FACT THAT DANA NESSEL THE ATTORNEY GENERAL REFUSED TO INVESTIGATE THE CHARGES RAISED BY PETER LUCIDO THE MACOMB COUNTER PROSECUTOR ABOUT NURSING HOME DEATHS IN MACOMB COUNTY.

AND THEY ARE PUSHING IT EVEN FURTHER.

THEY ARE NOT ONLY DENOUNCING NESSEL BUT THEY ARE SAYING WE MIGHT APPOINT A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.

WELL SENATOR HERTELL A DEMOCRAT RANKING MEMBER ON THE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE POINTS OUT I'M NOT SURE WE HAVE THAT, WHAT IS THAT?

THERE IS NO SUCH THING SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.

IT DOES NOT EXIST.

NEVER HAS EXISTED.

APPOINTED BY THE SENATE.

AND HE VIEWS THIS AS PURE POLITICS AND FRANKLY UNLESS THE REPUBLICANS CAN PRODUCE SOME TANGIBLE EVIDENCE THAT THEY CAN REALLY MAKE SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPEN, I THINK THEY ARE GOING TO END UP LOOKING A LITTLE FOOLISH AND THEY HAVE TO KEEP ON THE ISSUE THAT LUCIDO IS PURSUING THAT MAYBE IS LEGITIMATE BUT THIS IDEA OF A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO WORK.

>> LET'S TALK BRIEFLY EMILY ABOUT THE NEW COVID NUMBERS WHICH ARE NOT GOOD, WE HAD A NICE TREND DOWNWARD FOR THREE OR FOUR WEEKS AND WHAT HOPS UP THE NUMBERS FLIPPED AND ARE GOING UP, WHAT IS GOING ON?

>> YEAH, UNFORTUNATELY THOSE NUMBERS ARE GOING UP.

WE'VE SEEN SOME THINGS DRIVING THAT.

I THINK THAT HONESTLY THE WEATHER HAS BEEN REALLY NICE.

I THINK THAT MAYBE THERE IS A LITTLE BIT TOO PEOPLE SEEING EACH OTHER MORE OFTEN.

OBVIOUSLY RESTAURANTS HAVE OPENED BACK UP AND OPENED THE SECTORS OF OUR ECONOMY AT THIS POINT AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG SOMEONE BUT WE HAVE REOPENED SOME OF THOSE BIGGER VENUES AND WE REOPENED INDOOR DINING AT RESTAURANTS.

AND I THINK THAT YOU KNOW, THERE IS A CASE TO BE MADE THAT POTENTIALLY WE ARE SEEING THE EFFECTS OF THAT AT THIS POINT.

AND OF COURSE WE ARE ALL RACING TO GET THE VACCINE.

AND YOU KNOW I'M NOT SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE NECESSARILY 100% AWARE OF PROTOCOLS AROUND THE VACCINE AND HOW LONG IT TAKES TO GET IMMUNITY THE VACCINE PROVIDES, HOW LONG IT TAKES TO INTO IN EFFECT AND I THINK THERE IS A FEW FACTORS THAT ARE COMBINING HERE TO MAKE OUR NUMBERS LOOK WORSE CERTAINLY THAN THEY DID A WEEK A MONTH AGO TWO WEEKS AGO ET CETERA.

>> THE VARIANT TO THE EQUATION HAS CHANGED THE DYNAMICS AND ARE UP TO 750 CASES AND ALSO I THOUGHT THIS WAS AN INTERESTING POINT THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT MADE THIS WEEK WE GOT 70% OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO COVID STILL WANDERING AROUND NOT QUARANTINING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO AND IF THEY GOT IT THEY ARE STRETCHING IT AND JONATHAN PUSH WILL COME TO SHOVE AND GOVERNOR ANNOUNCED ON THE RADIO SHE SORT OF KNEW IF WE OPENED UP RESTAURANTS THAT CASES MIGHT GO UP, WHAT DOES SHE DO NOW?

>> YEAH, WELL THAT IS A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

I MEAN THE DATA IS SORT OF MIXED OBVIOUSLY IT'S TROUBLING WE HAVE ALL THESE NEW CASES.

BUT THERE IS SOME GOOD NEWS YOU KNOW, A SMALLER PORTION OF THE NEW CASES ARE OLDER PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO THE VIRUS AND MAYBE MORE LIKELY TO DIE.

PART OF THAT OF COURSE IS BECAUSE A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOW VACCINATED.

HOSPITALIZATIONS ARE RISING.

BUT NOT AT THE EXTREME RATE THEY WERE AT OTHER SURGES DURING THIS PANDEMIC.

SO YOU KNOW, THERE IS WE ARE REALLY AS EMILY MENTIONED THERE IS THIS RACE TO VACCINATE EVERYBODY AND RIGHT NOW THE ADMINISTRATION IS GRABBELING WITH HOW TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO STILL TAKE THIS VIRUS SERIOUSLY DESPITE THE OPTIMISM THAT PEOPLE ARE FEELING BECAUSE THE VIRUS IS OUT THERE.

SO WE DO KNOW AS WE ARE TAPING THIS FRIDAY MORNING TIM THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS SCHEDULED A PRESS CONFERENCE TO UPDATE ON COVID-19 SO WE MAY HEAR MORE FROM HER ON THAT FRONT.

>> BILL, THE REAL FEAR IS WE GET INTO ANOTHER SURGE AND MAYBE YOU HAVE TO WALK BACK SOME OF THIS STUFF.

SHE IS NOT THERE YET BUT SHE HAS TO BE LOOKING AT THAT.

>> HAS TO BE LOOKING AT IT BUT I THINK PSYCHOLOGICALLY THE POPULATION IS GOING TO HAVE A TOUGH TIME GOING BACK TO THE BAD OLD DAYS OF 2020.

THEY FEEL THEY HAVE BEEN THROUGH EVERYTHING THEY DESERVE TO HAVE TO HAVE BEEN PUT THROUGH OVER THE LAST YEAR.

AND THEY SEE THE VACCINE COMING.

AND THEY THINK, YOU KNOW, BETTER DAYS ARE AHEAD AND WE ARE ON TRACK AND LET'S STAY ON THAT COURSE AND NOT REVERSE THINGS BACK TO LOCK DOWN MODE.

>> ALL RIGHT LET'S TALK ABOUT SUNSHINE ON GOVERNMENT BY CALLING IN OUR GUEST TODAY STATE SENATOR JEREMY MOSS FROM SOUTHFIELD AND SENATOR WE WERE GOING TO LET'S START THE DISCUSSION WITH THE NAME OF MIKE SHIRKEY YOU DESPERATELY WOULD LIKE TO PASS LEGISLATION FOR FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE.

HE DESPERATELY WOULD LIKE TO KILL IT.

HOW DO YOU GET AROUND HIM, SIR?

>> WELL, SO I THINK WE BUILD A CASE CAUCUS MEMBER BY CAUCUS MEMBER IN THE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS AND THAT IS KIND OF WHAT WE HAVE DONE.

AND SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT OUR FOIA LEGISLATION FOR EXAMPLE IF YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THE SENATORS WHO PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS HOUSE MEMBERS I THINK WE HAVE ENOUGH VOTES RIGHT THERE OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN ON THE RECORD SUPPORTING OUR TRANSPARENCY PACKAGE.

AND CERTAINLY ON FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE THERE IS ANOTHER ONE.

THAT IS ONE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

SO I KNOW THAT SENATOR SHIRKEY HAS SOME CONCERNS BUT ALSO KNOW HE HAS BEEN ENGAGED ON THESE ISSUES ESPECIALLY WITH MY PARTNER ON TRANSPARENCY ITEMS AT McBROOM I'M HOPEFUL AND OPTIMISTIC AND REMEMBER A TIME I SERVED IN THE STATE HOUSE MANY YEARS AGO AND PUSHING FORWARD ON IT IT DID NOT HAVE A LOT OF SUPPORT AND HAD TO MAKE THE CASE MEMBER BY MEMBER IT'S IMPORTANT IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN SO CITIZENS HAVE MORE ACCESS TO HOW THEIR GOVERNMENT RUNS AND WE BUILT SUPPORT AND GAINED MOMENTUM AND THE MOMENTUM IS COMING THROUGH HIS OFFICE.

>> YOU ARE ASKING REPUBLICAN TO COMMIT POLITICAL SUICIDE BY GOING AROUND THEIR LEADER.

>> NO I DON'T THINK THAT IS THE CASE AT ALL.

FIRST OF ALL I THINK MOST REPUBLICANS ARE ON THE RECORD THERE SO I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE A PROBLEM TALKING ABOUT THIS PUBICALLY.

I THINK THAT MIKE SHIRKEY HAS A CHANCE TO BETTER VET THIS LEGISLATION, OFFER SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVEMENTS.

BUT YOU KNOW THE MEMBERSHIP IS THERE AND SO NOW WE ARE JUST WAITING FOR IT TO COME UP FOR A VOTE.

>> EMILY.

>> SENATOR, HISTORICALLY WHY DOES THIS ALWAYS STOP AT THE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER'S DOORSTEP?

WHAT IS BEHIND THAT?

>> SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS ABOUT THE FOURTH LEG SLAY TIFF SESSION WE PUSHED THE MEASURES FORWARD.

THAT FIRST LEGISLATIVE SESSION AGAIN IT WAS JUST ABOUT GETTING IT OUT OF THE HOUSE.

AND WE GOT THESE TRANSPARENCY MEASURES OUT OF THE HOUSE WITH ALMOST UNANIMOUS SUPPORT BY OVERWHELMING BIPARTISAN SUPPORT BUT NOT QUITE UNANIMOUS BUT THEN THE NEXT SESSION WE WERE ABLE TO GET IT OUT OF THE HOUSE UNANIMOUSLY AND IT WAS THE FIRST BIPARTISAN BILL PACKAGE THAT THE HOUSE SENT TO THE STATE SENATE.

UNFORTUNATELY WE RAN INTO FORMER REPUBLICAN LEADER ARLAN-MEEKHOM NO WAY NO HOW DEAD ON ARRIVAL.

SO THAT HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST HURDLE TO CLEAR BUT YOU KNOW WHEN I CAME INTO THE SENATE WITH ED McBROOM AFTER HAVING DRAFTED THESE BILLS TO SUNSHINE MORE LIGHT ON STATE GOVERNMENT IN THE HOUSE, IT WAS BEING VETTED IN THE SENATE FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME.

MEEKHOF DID NOT LET SENIOR STAFF TO EVEN LOOK AT THIS AND NOW WE HAVE OVERCOME THAT HURDLE AND ENGAGEMENT WITH THE SENATE MAJORITY'S OFFICE WITH THIS.

MY MOTTO AS A HOUSE MEMBER I WAS NOT ABLE TO GET IT THROUGH THE SENATE SO IF YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM JOIN THEM AND RAN FROM THE SENATE END AND WORK OUR WAY BACK TO THE HOUSE.

>> JONATHAN.

>> SENATOR, YOUR PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST LEGISLATION YOU KNOW SENATOR SHIRKEY FOR INSTANCE SAYS HE FEARS THAT IT MIGHT YOU KNOW GET IN THE WAY OF DEBATE AND NEGOTIATION.

BUT ON THE FLIP SIDE YOU'VE GOT THIS WEEK DEMOCRATIC SECRETARY OF STATE JOCELYN BENSON PROGRESS MICHIGAN SAYING YOUR PROPOSAL IS WAY TOO EASY ON THE LEGISLATURE, THAT IT HAS ALL THESE LOOPHOLES AND CARVE OUT FOR THE LEGISLATURE WONDER IF YOU CAN ADDRESS THAT BROADLY AND SPECIFICALLY SPEAK TO THIS IDEA THAT CAUCUS COMMUNICATIONS WOULD BE EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.

COULDN'T ANYTHING BE CONSIDERED A CAUCUS COMMUNICATION IF A LOBBIEST OR IF BETSY DEVOS WANTED TO TELL THE LEGISLATURE THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING COULD SHE WRITE AN E-MAIL TO DEAR CAUCUS AND THEN GET AROUND PUBLIC DISCLOSURE REQUIREMENTS THAT YOU'RE PROPOSING?

>> A LOT OF QUESTIONS THERE AND I GOT AN ANSWER FOR EACH ONE OF THEM.

SO TO THE SHIRKEY CONCERNS.

48 OTHER STATES DO THIS.

48 OTHER STATES ARE SUBJECTED TO DISCLOSURE.

OF THEIR DOCUMENTS.

SO WE AREN'T SO SPECIAL AND UNIQUE HERE IN MICHIGAN THAT SOMEHOW OUR CONSTITUENTS AND OUR RESIDENTS ARE NOT DESERVING OF THE SAME INFORMATION AS RESIDENTS IN OTHER STATES.

REGARDING PROGRESS MICHIGAN'S BALLOT PROPOSAL I WILL SAY THIS: WHEN WE DRAFTED THIS LEGISLATION ALL THOSE YEARS AGO, THE BIGGEST BENEFICIARIES OF OPEN RECORDS REQUESTS, THOSE WHO REQUEST RECORDS OF GOVERNMENT THE MOST AND I'M TALKING ABOUT LAWYERS FROM THE ACLU, I'M TALKING ABOUT POLICY ANALYSTS FROM THE MACKINAC CENTER FOR PUBLIC POLICY I'M TALKING ABOUT JOURNALISTS LIKE YOU AFFILIATED WITH THE MICHIGAN PRESS ASSOCIATION THEY WERE AT THE TABLE DRAFTING THIS LEGISLATION WITH US AND FULLY SUPPORT OUR ENDEAVORS SO WE BUILT THE COALITION OF THOSE WHO ARE ASKING FOR THESE DOCUMENTS TO SUPPORT OUR LEGISLATION AND I FEEL VERY CONFIDENT THAT WE ARE DOING RIGHT BY THEM AND RIGHT BY THE CONSTITUENTS IN MICHIGAN.

REGARDING THAT CAUCUS DOCUMENT PIECE BECAUSE I KNOW THAT IS SOMETHING THAT CRITICS HAVE HUNG ON TO, THE REALITY IS WHEN WE GO INTO CAUCUS MEETINGS WE TALK ABOUT BILLS AND WE HAVE KAW CAUSE DOCUMENTS OF BILL ANALYSIS AND AS BILLS CHANGE THOSE ANALYSIS DOCUMENTS CHANGE.

SO TO DISCLOSE A DOCUMENT THAT IS A MOMENT IN TIME BY THE TIME IT'S UP FOR PUBLIC DISCLOSURE IT MAYBE INACCURATE, IT MAYBE FALSE, IT MAYBE OUT DATED AND IF YOU DON'T SIT IN THAT KAW CAUSE ROOM WITHOUT THAT CONTEXT THAT DOCUMENT COULD BE POLITICALLY WEAPONIZED FROM ONE TO ANOTHER.

THAT IS THE CAUCUS DOCUMENT PIECE BUT A LOBBYIST NO EXEMPTION FROM DISCLOSURE BETWEEN A COMMUNICATION, BETWEEN A LOBBYIST AND LEGISLATOR, THAT WOULD BE SUBJECT TO DISCLOSURE NO MATTER WHAT.

>> MR. BALLENGER.

>> SENATOR, WHAT COULD YOU GIVE SENATOR SHIRKEY THAT WOULD MAKE HIM ACCEPT WHAT YOU WANT HIM TO DO AND THE LEGISLATURE TO DO WITH THIS LEGISLATION?

>> YOU KNOW, I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE.

AND I KNOW THAT MY PARTNER ON THIS ENDEAVOR ED McBROOM IS TAKING THE LEAD IN HAVING THOSE CONVERSATIONS WITH SENATOR SHIRKEY.

I KNOW HE HAS A CONCERN THAT SOMEHOW TEXT MESSAGES OR COMMUNICATIONS WITH HIS FAMILY MEMBERS AND WITH HIS WIFE THAT ARE NOT GOVERNMENT RELATED WOULD SOMEHOW BE SUBJECTED TO DISCLOSURE.

BUT I'M A FORMER CITY COUNCILMAN AND EVERY CITY COUNCIL IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN IS SUBJECTED TO THIS.

AND IT DOESN'T DISRUPT THEIR COMMUNICATIONS WITH THEIR LOVED ONES.

EVERY DEPARTMENT HEAD IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN IS SUBJECTED TO THIS.

AND IT DOESN'T DISRUPT THEIR EVERYDAY COMMUNICATION.

AND I'VE SAID THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS YOU KNOW THE MUNDANE, THE BORING COMMUNICATIONS ARE NOT GOING TO BE REQUESTED BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT PERTINENT TO ANY DAY STORY THAT YOU MIGHT WRITE.

IT'S THE BAD BEHAVIOR THAT WE WANT TO UNCOVER.

SO IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE YOU SHOULD HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

>> SENATOR, WHAT IS THE STATE OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS AND THE SENATE AND THE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS IN LIGHT OF WHAT YOU DEMOCRATS DID THIS WEEK WHICH WAS TO THREATEN TO WITHHOLD VOTES ON A MEDIA EFFECT WHICH MEANS NOTHING TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS YOU COULD HOLD UP LEGISLATION THAT THE PUBLIC MAYBE WANTS, THINGS ARE AWFUL BETWEEN THE TWO CAUCUSES RIGHT OR NOT?

>> THEY ARE TOUGH.

THE SITUATION IN THE STATE SENATE IS A LITTLE BIT UNTENABLE AND WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO WORK WITH ONE ANOTHER BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS WE HAVE THE LARGEST SENATE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS IN A GENERATION.

AND SO WHEN WE HAVE LEVERAGE OVER PROCEDURAL RULES TO IMPACT POLICY, WE WILL USE THEM.

BECAUSE WE HAVE MORE DEMOCRATIC STATE SENATORS IN MORE THAN A DECADE.

AND SO, YEAH, THE RELATIONSHIP IS FROSTY AND IT'S TOUGH.

BUT I'M HOPEFUL THAT IF WE CAN GET OUT OF THE CHAOS OF THIS PANDEMIC THAT WE'VE ALL BEEN SUFFERING UNDER FOR A YEAR, ONCE WE GET TO THAT LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL AND THAT CLOUD IS LIFTED FROM OVER US THAT BETTER RELATIONSHIPS ARE COMING.

>> SO IT'S 6 TO 7 MORE MONTHS OF ACRIMONY.

>> WELL WE HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR A YEAR SO WHAT IS ANOTHER SIX MONTHS.

>> EMILY.

>> SENATOR, JONATHAN MENTIONED SOME OF THE CONCERNS FROM SECRETARY BENSON AND PROGRESS MICHIGAN ABOUT SORT OF THE EQUITY BETWEEN THE LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR AND HOW THEY ARE COVERED UNDER THIS LEGISLATION.

WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN HEARING FROM THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE ON THESE BILLS?

>> SO WE'VE BEEN ENGAGED WITH THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING INCLUDING WHEN WE INTRODUCED THIS PACKAGE LAST YEAR.

AND I KNOW THAT THE GOVERNOR IS A TRANSPARENCY HAWK HERSELF AND SHE STARTED HER TERM WITH EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVES LIKE NO OTHER GOVERNOR BEFORE HER.

TO SUBJECT HER ADMINISTRATION TO MORE SUNSHINE.

SO WE ARE CONSISTENTLY ENGAGED WITH THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE AND I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO GETTING A PRODUCT TO HER DESK THAT SHE WILL SIGN.

>> JONATHAN.

>> HAVE THEY EXPRESSED THOSE CONCERNS THAT IT APPLIES MORE STRINGENTLY TO THE EXECUTIVE THAN TO THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH?

>> SO I THINK YOU KNOW, THAT POINT OF CONTENTION THAT WE ARE ALL DISCUSSING IS THE APPEALS PROCESS SO YOU REQUEST A DOCUMENT FROM THE LEGISLATURE, THE APPEALS PROCESS HAS TO MEET CONSTITUTIONAL MUSTER AND WE HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES WITH JUDICIAL REVIEW.

SO I'M OPEN TO BETTER IDEAS.

BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO HAVE A FOYA LAW A LAURA LAW THAT IS ENFORCEMENT.

AGAIN IF ANYBODY CAN BRING ME A BETTER IDEA OF APPEALS PROCESS I'M OPEN TO IT.

>> JONATHAN.

>> SENATOR, ANOTHER CONCERN PROGRESS MICHIGAN HAS MADE I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT.

WHY IS THERE A PROVISION IN YOUR PROPOSAL THAT WOULD NOT MAKE A RECORD, A PUBLIC RECORD UNTIL 15 DAYS THAT IT'S IN THE POSSESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE?

I KNOW THERE ARE RECORD RETENTION PROVISIONS IN THE BILL SEPARATELY.

BUT PROGRESS MICHIGAN CALLED THIS A PROACTIVE DESTRUCTION CLAUSE.

YOU KNOW SUGGESTING LAWMAKERS WOULD HAVE 15 DAYS TO DELETE SOMETHING BEFORE IT BECAME PUBLIC.

CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT?

>> SO TO BE HONEST WITH YOU I'M DISAPPOINTED WITH PROGRESS MICHIGAN'S TAKE ON THAT BECAUSE THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT WHAT THE LEGISLATION SAYS.

AND WHEN I INTRODUCED THIS LEGISLATION AND AT 15 DAY WINDOW HAS BEEN IN EVERY DRAFT OF THIS LEGISLATION AND WHEN I INTRODUCED IT AS A HOUSE MEMBER PROGRESS MICHIGAN AWARDED ME THEIR LEGISLATURE OF THE MONTH AND THAT AWARD SITS ON MY WALL IN MY OFFICE AND I CAN RETURN IT IF THEY WANT ME TO.

BUT SO SEVERAL YEARS AGO THEY DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS PROVISION.

BUT I CAN EXPLAIN IT.

BECAUSE WE WANTED TO PUT IN A 15 DAY WINDOW FOR WHEN A DOCUMENT COULD BE REQUESTED SO THAT EACH CAUCUS DIDN'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO IMMEDIATELY AMBUSH THE OTHER CAUCUS WITH LAURA REQUESTS ONCE BILLS CAME ON THE AGENDA.

THAT WE WANTED A LITTLE BIT OF BREATHING ROOM SO THAT WITH THIS LARA TOOL COULDN'T BE WEAPONIZED FROM ONE CAUCUS TO ANOTHER AND A 15 DAY WINDOW BEFORE A DOCUMENT CAN BE REQUESTED BUT ON THE 15TH DAY IT'S OPEN TO DISCLOSURE AND EVEN PUT IN THE LAW THERE IS NO ABILITY, THERE IS NO WAY FOR SOMEBODY TO DESTROY THAT DOCUMENT WITHIN THAT 15 DAY WINDOW.

SO THAT'S JUST A MISINTERPRETATION ON THE END OF PROGRESS MICHIGAN.

BUT THIS IS ALSO BEEN IN EVERY VERSION OF OUR DRAFTS, THAT HAS WON PRAISE PROGRAM PROGRESS MICHIGAN IN THE PAST.

>> WE HAVE LESS THAN A MINUTE A QUESTION TO PUT A TOP ON THIS.

>> IMMEDIATE EFFECT WHY CAN'T THE SENATE REPUBLICAN MAJORITY SIMPLY GAVEL IT THROUGH LIKE THEY DO IN THE HOUSE?

THEY COULD DO THAT IF THEY WANT TO.

>> THERE'S A LOT IN THE HOUSE THAT WE CAN'T DO IN THE SENATE.

SO THE PROCEDURES IN THE HOUSE CALL FOR A VOTE ON IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

AND THAT IS A GOOD THING BECAUSE I SERVED IN THE HOUSE WHERE THEY TOTALLY ABUSED THAT PROCESS.

AND WE TRIED EVERY WHICH WAY TO DISPLAY IN THE HOUSE.

>> BUT WHY.

>> THERE WERE NOT VOTES FOR IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

>> WHY DON'T THE SENATE MAJORITY REPUBLICANS SIMPLY GAVEL IT THROUGH LIKE THEY DO IN THE HOUSE?

>> GOT TO BE PUT UP FOR A VOTE.

>> SENATOR ON THAT OMINOUS NOTE THANK YOU SIR IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AND YOU WILL KEEP US POSTD ON THIS LEGISLATION AND THANKS TO EMILY AND BILL AND JONATHAN OOSTING WE WILL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK FOR THE NEXT EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD.

PRODUCTION OF OFF THE RECORD IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING, BUSINESS LEADERS FOR MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN ROAD TO TOP TEN.COM.

FOR MORE OFF THE RECORD VISIT WKAR.ORG MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF OFF THE RECORD WITH TIM SKUBICK.

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