♪♪ >> WELCOME BACK TO OUR GUEST THIS WEEK IS REPUBLICAN STATE SENATOR RONSTADT WHO IS UP SWEAT THE GOVERNOR AND THAT'S OUR LEAD STORY, WHITMER HAS HAD A BUMPY WEEK AND HERE TO DISCUSS IT, DAVID BOUCHER, CLARK AND -- SITTING WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT.

OFF THE RECORD.

>> PRODUCTION OF OFF THE RECORD IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING.

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>> AND NOW THIS EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD WITH KEN SKUBIC.

>> THANKS FOR TUNING IN TO THIS EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD.

IT HAS BEEN A BUSY WEEK IN OUR TOWN AND WE APPRECIATE YOU TAKING THE TIME TO JOIN US FOR OUR CONVERSATION WITH ZOE CLARK AND DAVE AND ZACH, NICE TO SEE ALL OF YOU ON BOARD AND LET'S START WITH YOU, THE GOVERNOR IS, SHE HAS A DOOR .2BILLION PACKAGE ON HER DESK, COVID AID, WHAT IS SHE GOING TO DO REQUEST IT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT, A BILLION-DOLLAR QUESTION, FOUR BILLS SENT TO HER, TWO BILLS ARE FUNDING BILLS AND TWO BILLS ARE BILLS THAT TAKE AWAY POWER FROM THE HEALTH STATE DEPARTMENT IF SHE VETOES ONE THAT LIMITS THE LENGTH OF TYPE THAT EMERGENCY CAN BE DECLARED BY THE STATE GOVERNMENT WITHOUT GETTING MORE APPROVAL FROM THE LEGISLATURE.

$370MILLION IN COVID TESTING FUNDING, SHE, A VETO BILL TAKES AWAY THE AUTHORITY FROM THE STATE TO CANCEL GAMES OR TO BAN IN PERSON CLASS DUE TO COVID THEN SHE RISKS MORE THAN 800MILLION IN FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS.

SO WE KNOW THAT GOVERNOR DOESN'T LIKE THOSE TWO BILLS, THOSE BILLS TAKING AWAY POWER FROM THE STATE AND IN ONE CASE FROM LOCAL OFFICIALS AS WELL, BUT AGAIN, THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY SHE SAYS THE STATE NEEDS RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, ZOE, REMEMBER THE REPUBLICANS STARTED OUT AT 2.5BILLION AND BUMPED THE ANTE TO 2.4BILLION, WHY DOESN'T THE GOVERNOR TAKE THE MONEY AND RUN.

>> RIGHT, THE GOVERNOR PROPOSED SOMETHING CLOSER TO 5BILLION AND I THINK BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN THIS STANDOFF, AND IT IS YET ANOTHER SORT OF STEP IN THE LADDER OF DETERIORATING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE REPUBLICANS AND THE GOVERNOR, THE GOVERNOR HAS BASICALLY SAID THEY, THE REPUBLICANS, MAJORITY HAVE PUT TOGETHER THIS BUDGET WITHOUT NEGOTIATIONS.

WE KNOW THAT HER OFFICE AND THE LEADERS OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE HAS BEEN A FROSTY RELATIONSHIP TO SAY THE LEAST SO OF COURSE SHE COULD FIND SOME OF THESE BILLS AND GET SOME OF THE MONEY, BUT IT IS SORT OF GOES TO THE POINT OF THIS POWER STRUGGLE, WHICH IS THAT SHE DOESN'T WANT TO GIVE AWAY THESE EXECUTIVE POWERS THAT HER ADMINISTRATION HAS HAD DURING THE PANDEMIC, AND THUS WE FIND OURSELVES AT THIS SORT OF IMPASSE AT THIS MOMENT.

>> ZACH, HELP ME OUT HERE, THIS IS A MESSAGING PROBLEM, IS IT NOT FOR THE GOVERNOR IF SHE VETOES SOME OF THIS MONEY THAT IS BADLY NEEDED IN THE HINTERLAND AND SHE GOES TO THE PEOPLE AND SAYS I DID IT BECAUSE I AM PROTECTING MY POWERS, DO YOU THINK THE PEOPLE AT HOME WILL GIVE TWO HOOTS ABOUT THAT?

>> I MEAN, THIS IS A CLASSIC JAM THAT THE LEGISLATURE, THE MAJORITY REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE HAS PUT THE GOVERNOR IN.

SHE HAS GOT TO PRETTY, TWO PRETTY BAD OPTIONS.

IT IS CONCEIVABLE, THEY MIGHT BE TRYING TO FIND SOME WAY THAT SHE COULD SIGN THE BILLS AND THEN JUST SORT OF IGNORE THE LANGUAGE AND PUT THE MONEY OUT, YOU KNOW, VETO THE TWO BILLS THAT AFFECT HER POWERS AND EXTEND THE MONEY OUT THE DOOR ANYWAYS AND DARE SOMEONE TO GO TO COURT AND STOP HER.

I AM SURE THEY ARE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT, IS THERE AN OPTION C OUT THERE, BECAUSE OPTION A, SIGNING EVERYTHING, WE KNOW SHE DOESN'T WANT TO DO THAT.

OPTION B, LOSING THE 1.2BILLION THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE FUNDING WE KNOW THAT WOULD BE THE EXACT MESSAGING PROBLEM YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

SHE HAS BEEN BEATEN UP BY THE REPUBLICANS ON REALLY ABOUT TWO MONTHS NOW OR ALMOST TWO MONTHS NOW FOR NOT BEING WILLING TO SEND ALL FIVE AND A HALF BILLION OR SO OF FEDERAL FUNDS FOR COVID RELIEF OUT THE DOOR RIGHT AWAY GIVEN THE MAGNITUDE OF THE ISSUES OUT THERE.

AND IT IS A POWER STRUGGLE AND MEANWHILE THE PANDEMIC IS NOT OVER, PEOPLE ARE STILL GETTING SICK IN LESSER NUMBERS THANKFULLY BUT PEOPLE ARE STILL DYING, BUT THERE IS WHAT IS HAPPENING.

>> DAVE, WHAT ARE THE REPUBLICANS SAYING, WHY ARE THEY HOLDING BACK PART OF THIS MONEY, NOT GIVE HER THE WHOLE CHECK, THE BLANK CHECK SHE WANTED?

>> YES, SO AS YOU MENTIONED, TIM, REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN RETICENT TO LET THE STATE USE ALL OF THIS FEDERAL FUNDING THAT WAS APPROVED BY CONGRESS IN 2020, THEY HAVE ARGUED THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE OVERSIGHT AS TO HOW THAT MONEY IS SPENT AND THE STATE A NEEDS TO COME BACK AND SHOW HOW THEY ARE USING THIS MONEY BEFORE THEY CAN GET ADDITIONAL FUND.

NOW GOVERNOR AND DEMOCRATS HAVE ARGUED THAT MEANS THAT PEOPLE WHO NEED TO PUT FOOD ON THEIR TABLE, WHO ARE FACING EVICTION BECAUSE THEY CAN'T WORK, IN SOME CASES DUE TO NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN COULD LOSE THEIR HOUSING OR COULD BE PUT IN A REALLY PERILOUS SITUATION OVER WHAT GOVERNOR AND DEMOCRATS HAVE SAID IS SOMETHING OF A POLITICAL FIGHT, OVER THESE IDEAS OF HEALTH EMERGENCY POWERS.

>> THIS COVID PACKAGE WAS ONE BUMP IN THE ROAD THEN THE GOVERNOR WAS TRYING TO TRAVERSE, TRAVERSE ANOTHER BUMP IN THE ROAD THAT HAD TO DO WITH FINANCIAL SETTLEMENTS WITH MR.GORDON, THE GIFT THAT KEEPS GIVING TO THE REPUBLICANS, WE FIND OUT THROUGH THE DETROIT NEWS MR.GORDON THE FORMER HEALTH DIRECTOR GOT $155,000 SECRET SETTLEMENT AND THE GUY WHO WAS RUNNING THE UNEMPLOYMENT SYSTEM THAT WAS SORT OF A MESS GOT 86,000 AND HERE IS WHAT THE GOVERNOR HAD TO SAY ABOUT THAT.

>> THE STATE'S FORMER HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES DIRECTOR ROBERT GORDON ANNOUNCED HIS DEPARTURE FROM STATE GOVERNMENT IN A BRIEF TWEET, AND WITHOUT ASKING HIM TO STAY ON, THE GOVERNOR ACCEPTED IT.

HOWEVER, THE GOVERNOR ALSO AGREED TO GIVE HIM 155,000 PLUS DOLLARS AS HE WENT OUT THE DOOR.

SHE CONTENDS SHE IS RESTRICTED FROM SAYING ANYTHING MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> DUO THE NATURE OF THE AGREEMENT THERE IS NOT A LOT MORE THAT I CAN SAY ON THIS SUBJECT.

>> SO IT WAS A MISTAKE IN JUDGMENT BECAUSE THIS WAS DURING -- I MEAN A TIME OF UNPRECEDENTED SECRECY IN HOW THESE DECISIONS WERE MADE, AND THAT IS WHY I WAS SO SHOCKED.

>> THE GOVERNOR CONTENDS DR.GORDON DID NOTHING WRONG.

>> THERE WERE NOT ANY IMPROPRIETIES WITH DIRECTOR GORDON'S WORK.

>> REPRESENTATIVE HALL AND OTHER REPUBLICANS, HOWEVER, WANT A LEGISLATIVE INVESTIGATION INTO THE DEAL SINCE YOUR TAX DOLLARS WERE PART OF IT.

>> I MEAN, $155,000 OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO HUSH A SENIOR LEVEL ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL SO WE WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT LED TO HIS DEPARTURE?

I THINK THE PEOPLE WILL BE OUTRAGED BY THIS AND I DO THINK THAT THIS IS SOMETHING WHERE ROBERT GORDON SHOULD RETURN THE MONEY AND REALLY WE SHOULD FIND OUT MORE ABOUT WHAT HE KNOWS.

>> IT'S HUSH MONEY.

>> TIM, YOU KNOW, I REALLY BRISTLE AT THE CHARACTERIZATION, IT IS THE NATURE OF A SEPARATION AGREEMENT WHEN SOMEONE IN A LEADERSHIP POSITION LEAVES IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TERMS TO IT AND YOU CAN'T YOU KNOW, SHARE EVERY TERM TO IT.

>> REPUBLICANS WANT A DEEPER EXPLANATION, BUT BASED ON WHAT GOVERNOR IS SAYING, THEY MAY NOT GET IT.

>> ZOE, THE GOVERNOR BRISTLING, WE HAVEN'T HEARD THAT ONE FROM HER IN A WHILE.

>> YEAH, LEAVE IT TO YOU, TOO.

TIM.

LOOK, AS YOU SAID, THIS IS NOT GOOD IN TERMS OF THE BUDGET MESSAGING AND THIS CONTROVERSY THIS WEEK ONLY SORT OF MUDDIED THE WATERS AND MADE THINGS WORSE FOR THE ADMINISTRATION.

YOU KNOW, IT DIDN'T HELP THAT THE DEPARTMENT HEAD GORDON HAD LEFT AND THERE REALLY WASN'T AN ANSWER TO WHY HE RESIGNED, RIGHT?

SO THAT HAD BEEN A STORY SINCE JANUARY AND HAD PEOPLE SORT OF SNIFFING AROUND AND ANTENNAS GOING UP AND THEN YOU FIND OUT ABOUT THIS $1,055,000, AND AGAIN I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT WHEN YOU WATCH AND YOU ASK THE GOVERNOR, READING FROM A PREPARED STATEMENT ALSO DOESN'T DO ANYTHING TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THERE ISN'T A THERE, THERE, THAT FOLKS SIMPLY DON'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT, AND YESTERDAY YOU EVEN HAD THE SENTIMENT, THE SENATE DEMOCRAT LEADER SAY HE HAD QUESTIONS AND HE WAS WONDERING ABOUT THIS DEAL.

SO IT IS CERTAINLY NOT A GOOD LOOK AND ESPECIALLY DURING THIS WEEK AS WE HAVE TALK ABOUT WHERE THERE ARE THESE ISSUES OVER THE BUDGET.

>> WELL, ZACH, SEVERANCE AGREEMENTS ARE ALIVE AND WELL OUT THERE IN THE REAL WORLD.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS THING FROM THE REPUBLICAN PERSPECTIVE?

>> WELL, LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT IT FROM A GENERAL PERSPECTIVE AS OPPOSED TO A PARTISAN PERSPECTIVE.

YES.

SEPARATION AGREEMENTS ARE COMMON IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

IT IS A WAY FOR PEOPLE YOU KNOW, MAYBE WHEN A PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIP IS AT AN END FOR EVERYONE TO WALK AWAY AND YOU DON'T HAVE A RISK OF LITIGATION OR SOMEONE BAD-MOUTHING THE COMPANY AND SO FORTH.

THIS IS NOT THE PRIVATE SECTOR, THIS IS THE PUBLIC SECTOR, THIS IS A DEPARTMENT WITH ROUGHLY 25 TO $30BILLION IN TAXPAYER MONEY.

SO THERE IS AN EXPECTATION THAT THE AFFAIRS OF THE DEPARTMENT WILL BE CONDUCTED IN PUBLIC.

AND WHEN YOU A SEPARATION AGREEMENT WHERE THE DEPARTING DEPARTMENT DIRECTOR AGREES TO SIGN A NONDISCLOSURE AGREEMENT AND AGREES NOT TO SUE THE STATE IT BEGS THE QUESTION OF, WHAT WAS IT THEY WERE SO AFRAID HE MIGHT SAY AND WHAT WAS IT THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN AFRAID HE WOULD SUE OVER?

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IT IS A PUBLIC DEPARTMENT, YOU DON'T GET THE SECRECY THAT YOU HAVE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, SO ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT VIRTUALLY EVERYONE WHO IS NOT, WHO DOES NOT WORK FOR THE GOVERNOR IS ASKING, WHAT WAS THE UPSIDE TO THIS FOR THE GOVERNOR?

OTHER THAN THE ONLY THING THERE COULD BE IN A PUBLIC SECTOR SEPARATION AGREEMENT LIKE THIS IS FORMER DIRECTOR GORDON AGREEING NOT TO SUE THE STATE.

OTHERWISE, IT BECAME PUBLIC BECAUSE OF THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT, YOU KNOW, IT IS A BIG EMBARRASSMENT TO THE GOVERNOR, REALLY AS ZOE HINTING THIS SEPARATION HAS BEEN BOTCHED FROM THE GET A-GO, FROM THE VERY FIRST MOMENT IT WAS ANNOUNCED WHERE THEY COMPLETELY DOWNPLAYED AND ALMOST TREATED DIRECTOR GORDON LEAVING LIKE GUM ON THEIR SHOE TRYING TO IGNORE IT, ZOE SAID IT SET ANTENNAS OFF, PEOPLE THOUGHT WHAT IS GOING ON?

IF FROM THE BEGINNING THEY SAID WE THANK GORDON FOR HIS SERVICE AND WE APPRECIATE ALL HE HAS DONE, IF HE HADN'T TWEETED HIS OWN SEPARATION ANNOUNCEMENT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITUATION INSTEAD THEY HAVE GIVEN THE REPUBLICANS VALID REASONS TO START SUBPOENAING ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS AS TO WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON.

>> DAVE, THE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO MAKE SOME POLITICAL HAY BY THROWING BACK AT THE GOVERNOR HER COMMENTS ABOUT TO TRANSPARENCY THAT SHE IS ALL IN ON TRANSPARENCY, AND THANKS TO CHAD LIVENGOOD WE LOOKED AT SOME VIDEO EARLIER OF THE GOVERNOR WHEN SHE WAS THE MINORITY LEADER SENT SOME DISPARAGING SAID ABOUT THEN GOVERNOR RID RICK SCHNEIDER ON THE SAME ISSUE OF TRANSPARENCY ONE OF HIS APPOINTEES THAT GOT MONEY, HOW DOES SHE SQUARE HER TRANSPARENCY POSITION AND WHAT ME IS DOING ON THE GORDON SITUATION?

>> WELL, SHE CERTAINLY HAS BEEN TRYING TO SQUARE IT, WHETHER OR NOT SHE ACTUALLY IS SQUARING IT IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

SHE IS ARGUING SHE HAS BEEN TRANSPARENT AND THAT IN GENERAL THIS ONE SPECIFIC AGREEMENT PREVENTS HER FROM TALKING ABOUT NOT ONLY WHY DR.GORDON LEFT BUT ABOUT THE FEED FOR THESE SORT OF AGREEMENTS AT ALL.

I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST QUESTIONS IS, ONE, WHY DOES SHE THINK THIS IS A GOOD USE OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS WHICH SHE ABSOLUTELY CAN ANSWER AND NOT VIOLATE ANY SORT OF CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT.

AND TWO, AGAIN, IF THE ISSUE IS JUST THAT ROBERT GORDON AND THE GOVERNOR DISAGREED ON, FOR EXAMPLE, HOW LONG RESTAURANTS SHOULD HAVE 25PERCENT CAPACITY, JUST SAY THAT, I MEAN IS THAT WORTH $155,000?

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WOULD BE SHOCKED THAT A GOVERNOR AND A CABINET LEVEL OFFICIAL WOULD DISAGREE ON SOMETHING.

I DON'T THINK THAT IS A HUGE IDEA THAT WOULD FLUSTER PEOPLE AND ALSO WORTH NOTING THAT REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN CALLING FOR GORDON TO LEAVE FOR MONTHS, FROM ESSENTIALLY THE MOMENT THAT THE SUPREME COURT SAID THE GOVERNOR COULDN'T ISSUE ORDERS AND ROBERT GORDON STARTED ISSUING HEALTHCARE ORDERS, SENATORS INCLUDING ERIC NESBITT WERE INCENSED AT WHAT HE WOULD DO AND REPRESENTATIVE HALL WOULD GRILL DIRECTOR GORDON AT THE COVID HEARINGS AND THEY WOULD SAY HE WAS NOT DOING HIS JOB AND NOW THAT HE HAS LEFT THEY ARE SAYING, WOW, WE CAN'T BELIEVE THE GOVERNOR PAID HIM TO STAY QUIET, WHAT DOES HE KNOW, SO THEY ARE PLAYING BOTH SIDES OF THAT, IMMEDIATELY AFTER HE LEFT I TALKED TO REPUBLICANS AND OTHER PEOPLE SAID THAT'S GREAT, I AM GLAD HE LEFT.

AND WE HAVE A BETTER WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH ELIZABETH HERTEL AND GET ALONG WITH HER BETTER ISN'T IT POSSIBLE THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET MAYBE SHE DOESN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IS THAT MR.GORDON WAS NOT THE MOST POPULAR GUY IN TOWN AND WAS HARD TO WORK WITH AND, YES, THEY MAY HAVE DISAGREED ON POLICY BUT I THINK STOWE, IT WENT A LITTLE DEEP NEVER THAT IN THE RELATIONSHIP, IT JUST WASN'T WORKING OUT.

>> SURE.

AND WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW, BUT MUCH LIKE YOU, WE TALKED TO FOLKS, RIGHT, AROUND LANSING AND THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK THAT WE HEARD, ESPECIALLY BACK IN JANUARY WHEN THE RESIGNATION WAS ANNOUNCED, WAS THAT THE WORKING RELATIONSHIP WASN'T GREAT AND THAT POSSIBLY EVEN YOU KNOW, MR.GORDON, THERE ARE SOME ISSUES WITH HIS LEADERSHIP, BUT, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, UNTIL ANYONE WANTS TO GO ON THE RECORD, UNTIL ANYONE WANTS TO HAVE ONE OR TWO SOURCES TO TELL US ALL OF THAT, I AM CERTAINLY NOT IN A POSITION TO CONFIRM THAT THAT IS THE CASE.

GOING BACK, THOUGH, I DO WANT TO NOTE THAT, AND THIS WAS SOME GREAT REMEMBERING BY A LIVE REPORTER EMILY LAWLER, WHO WENT BACK AND DUG UP SOME STORIES FROM THE SCHNEIDER DAYS AND THIS IS SOMEWHAT HAVING TO DO WITH THEN SENATE DEMOCRATIC LEADER WHITMER RAILING AGAINST THE SCHNEIDER ADMINISTRATION IS THAT SCHNEIDER DIDN'T DO SEPARATION AGREEMENTS BUT HE MOVED FOLKS AND SOMETIMES HIGH POSITION FOLKS AROUND IN DEPARTMENTS AND GAVE THEM NEW TITLES BEFORE THEY LEFT, RIGHT, SPECIAL PROJECTS LEADER IS ONE.

THERE WAS SOME ISSUES ABOUT ANDY DILLON, THEN A DEMOCRAT THAT SCHNEIDER BROUGHT IN EARLY ON TO BE THE STATE TREASURER AND WHEN HE LEFT HE STAYED ON.

NOW, THAT'S A LITTLE TENUOUS IN TERMS OF WHAT SOME MAY HAVE BEEN VACATION DAYS AND SUPPOSED TO HELP WITH THE TRANSITION, BUT I DO THINK IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT IT SEEMS THAT THE PAST TWO GOVERNORS HAVE FIGURED OUT WAYS TO MOVE FOLKS AROUND.

THIS ONE, THOUGH, IS DEFINITELY UNUSUAL FOR LANSING.

>> ALL RIGHT, LET'S CALL IN OUR GUEST TODAY, STATE SENATOR WHO IS PART OF THE GOVERNOR'S PROBLEM THIS WEEK.

YOU NOT EXACTLY HAVE BEEN VERY KIND TO HER.

IN FACT YOU WANT TO BLOCK HER APPOINTMENT TO REPLACE MR.GORDON.

LET'S ASK YOU THIS QUESTION.

ARE YOU WILLING TO LET THAT APPOINTMENT OF MS.HERTEL GO THROUGH WITHOUT A VOTE IN THE SENATE AND YOU CAN GET YOUR POUND OF FLESH AND STILL GIVE HER THE JOB?

ARE YOU WILLING TO DO THAT, SIR?

>> IT WOULD BE MY PREFERENCE THAT WE DO TAKE UP A VOTE ON HER CONFIRMATION, I AM NOT SURE AT THIS POINT IF THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN OR NOT BUT DEFINITELY I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A VOTE.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME INTERESTING THINGS THAT SHE HAS SAID IN THE ADVISE AND CONSENT THAT CAUSED A NUMBER OF REPUBLICANS TO HAVE CONCERNS AND SO I WOULD LIKE TO BE, I WOULD LIKE IT TO BE AN UP AND DOWN VOTE AND SEE WHERE THE CAUCUS IS.

>> BUT IF THERE IS NOT A VOTE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GO BONKERS AND LET IT GO THROUGH, RIGHT?

>> WELL, IT IS GOING TO PROBABLY BE PA DECISION OF THE CAUCUS IF THE MAJORITY SUPPORT HER, THEN THAT'S GOING TO BE THE WAY IT IS GOING TO BE.

IF THE MAJORITY ARE AGAINST, THEN I THINK WE ARE GOING TO HAVE AN UP AND DOWN VOTE AND THAT IS GOING TO BE A BIG DISCUSSION THIS WEEK FOR SURE.

>> DAVE, JUMP IN.

>> YES, THANKS.

I APPRECIATE IT.

CAN YOU, SENATOR, POINT TO THE ONE ISSUE THAT YOU THINK THAT ACTING DIRECTOR HER TELL WAS THE BIGGEST RED FLAG FROM YOU?

WE HEARD THERE OTHER LAW MAKERS SHE IS A BETTER COMMUNICATOR THAT ROBERT GORDON AND BETTER HISTORY OF WORKING WITH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS THAN HIM.

WHAT WAS THE BIG RED FLAG FOR YOU?

>> THERE WAS TWO.

ONE IS THAT SHE WAS ASKED HOW LONG WOULD SHE RETAIN THESE EMERGENCY POWERS AND HER ANSWER WAS IN ESSENCE INDEFINITELY, IS THE POSSIBLE ANSWER TO THAT.

AND SECONDLY, WHAT DID THE DEPARTMENT DO WRONG, AND SHE COULDN'T COME UP WITH AN ANSWER.

YOU LOOK AT THE CONTACT TRACING, WHAT A DISASTER, THAT OF THE THOUSANDS OF COMPANIES THAT CAN DO CONTACT TRACING THE DEPARTMENT LOOKED THOROUGHLY THROUGH THEM ALL AND LO AND BEHOLD THE ONLY ONE THEY COULD USE, THE ONE THAT HAS RUN AROUND ALL OF THE REGULAR RULES TO GET THIS SPECIAL CONTRACT WAS THE DATA CONTACT TRACING, THE DATA COMPANY FOR HER CAMPAIGN WHO WAS LIBERAL NATIONAL KEEPS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WHAT A KINARD, SO, CUNARD SO I ASKED FOR AN INVESTIGATION OF THAT BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, BY ALL ACCOUNTS IT SEEMS THE INVESTIGATION WAS DONE UNTIL SHE RAN INTO A STONE WALL FROM TWO KEY PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION WHO REFUSED TO TESTIFY.

SO THAT RIGHT THERE IS NOT BUILDING TRANSPARENCY INTO THE EQUATION AS THE GOVERNOR SAID SHE WAS GOING TO OPERATE.

NOR IN HER TELL, DIRECTOR HERTEL WHO COULDN'T THINK OF ONE THING THAT WENT WRONG, NOW WE ARE LOOKING AT ALL OF THESE NURSING HOME ISSUES AND THERE IS NOTHING SHE WOULD HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY IN TERMS OF ALL OF THE NURSING HOME DISASTER WE HAVE BEEN FINDING OUT A WEEK AFTER WEEK AND ROLLING.

>> ZOE.

>> SURE.

SO WE ARE NOW, I THINK, AT WHAT IS THE NUMBER, SENATOR, 18 APPOINTMENTS THAT THE REPUBLICAN LED SENATE HAS NOT APPROVED UNDER THIS GOVERNOR, AND BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, FOLKS ARE SAYING IT IS PURELY POLITICAL, RIGHT?

THESE ARE POSITIONS AND JOBS THAT REALLY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PANDEMIC OR THE CORONAVIRUS.

NOW THAT WE ARE AT A POSITION THAT REALLY IS SO INTERTWINED WITH COVID-19 AND THAT OVERSIGHT, HOW CAN FOLKS REALLY TRUST THAT THIS DOES HAVE TO DO WITH LIZ BETH HERTERL'S POSSIBLE MANAGEMENT PAST VERSUS THESE 18 NONAPPROVALS HAVE BEEN?

AND THAT'S IS, IT IS JUST POLITICS.

>> WELL THE 18 INDIVIDUALS PRIOR TO THAT WAS A DECISION MADE BY THE CHAIR WHO HAD REVIEWED THEIR APPLICATIONS AND HAD SOME CONCERNS WITH IT, I AM NOT ON THAT SO I CAN'T ELABORATE ON THE ISSUES THE CHAIR FOUND WITH THESE INDIVIDUALS, BUT LIKE I SAID, THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES IS THE LARGEST DEPARTMENT, THE LARGE CANNEST BUDGET WITH THIS COVID, THE MOST IMPORTANT DEPARTMENT IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN BY FAR, SO THIS IS NOT AN INCONSEQUENTIAL APPOINTMENT.

THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO GET THIS RIGHT AND LIKE I SAID, THE FACT THAT SHE THINKS WELL SHE CAN RETAIN THESE POWERS, WHAT, THE ENTIRE TIME THAT THE GOVERNOR IS IN OFFICE WITH NO DATA, NO MATRIX AS TO WHY THIS IS OCCURRING?

THAT EVERYTHING THAT DEPARTMENT HAS DONE SHE COULDN'T FIND ONE THING TO IMPROVE?

THOSE ARE MAJOR, MAJOR CONSIDERATIONS.

I THINK FOR THE PUBLIC AS IT UNWINDS THE PUBLIC WILL HAVE MORE QUESTIONS, NOT LESS.

>> ZACH.

>> SENATOR, I MEAN, ISN'T THE ADVICE AND CONSENT PROCESS DESIGNED TO PREVENT SOMEONE WHO IS WHOLLY UNQUALIFIED FROM BEING APPOINTED?

I MEAN, THE GOVERNOR, WOULD YOU AGREE, I GUESS I HAVE A MULTIPART QUESTION, ONE, DOES THE GOVERNOR HAVE THE RIGHT TO APPOINT PEOPLE TO RUN HER CABINET AS OPPOSED TO THE SENATE?

AND, TWO, ISN'T ELIZABETH HERTEL HAVING WORKED IN A MULTITUDE OF POSITIONS IN WHAT WAS FORMERLY THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY HEALTH IS NOT THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HEWLETT PACKARD SERVICES, AND AS A FORMER LEGISLATIVE REPUBLICAN STAFFER ON HEALTH POLICY, ISN'T SHE QUALIFIED AND DON'T YOU HAVE TO FIND OUT THE POLICY DIFFERENCES DIFFERENTLY AS OPPOSED TO THE, THROUGH THE ADVICE AND CONSENT PROCESS?

>> WELL, AGAIN, THIS DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST OF THE MAJOR DECISIONS THAT IS BASICALLY PROMISING OPENING UP THE DECISIONS BY THE GOVERNOR.

SO WERE THESE THE PROPER DECISIONS?

WE ARE HEARING THINGS ALL OVER THE MAP.

WE WERE TOLD THAT UNTIL THE END OF FEBRUARY THAT SCHOOLS COULDN'T HAVE THE ATHLETICS AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN LO AND BEHOLD WHEN THERE IS A RALLY IN THE STEPS OF THE CAPITAL BY OVER 2,000 PARENTS, TEACHERS, COACHES, THE SCIENCE CHANGED AND TWO DAYS AFTER THAT AND THEY LIFTED THE BAN ON WINTER SPORTS.

I DON'T THINK THAT THE SCIENCE CHANGED.

I THINK THAT IT WAS THE PEOPLE WHO SAID WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH.

THERE ARE SO MANY DECISIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE BY THE DEPARTMENT THAT MADE NO SENSE EARLY ON WHEN THEY SAID THAT YOU COULD HAVE ONE -- YOU COULD NOT HAVE ONE GUY GO SET UP HIS BOAT TANK AND LAUNCH BUT TEN PEOPLE GO MOW THEIR OWN LAWN AND FILLING UP GAS TANKS AND SPREADING THE DISEASE, THAT MAKES SENSE, THAT YOU COULD GO BUY LOTTERY TICKETS AND MARIJUANA, AND BOOZE BUT YOU COULDN'T IN THE SUMMER BUY THINGS FOR YOUR HOME, WOOD CHIPS, PAINT, THERE ARE SO MANY DECISIONS THAT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE BUT NOT ONE SINGLE ALTERING DECISION THAT ELIZABETH HERTEL CAME UP WITH SHE WOULD CHANGE AND I MEAN WE KNOW A LOT NOW.

I WOULD ASSUME THERE ARE SOME THINGS SHE WOULD SAY THAT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE.

MAYBE WE DIDN'T KNOW ENOUGH.

BUT NO, THERE IS NOTHING SHE WOULD CHANGE UP TO THIS POINT.

THERE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT APPOINTMENT WE ARE GOING TO APPROVE OR DISAPPROVE DURING HER ENTIRE ADMINISTRATION.

>> SENATORS, YOU HAVE BEEN CRITICAL OF THE GOVERNOR'S HANDLING EARLY ON WILL THE PANDEMIC, VIS-A-VIS THE NURSING HOMES.

YOU NOT ACCUSING HER OF COVERING UP THE DEATHS IN NURSING HOMES, ARE YOU, OR ARE YOU NOT?

>> WE HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR THE DATA.

WHAT WE FOUND OUT JUST YESTERDAY IS THAT GOVERNOR CUOMO IN NEW YORK HAD THE STAFF COOK THE BOOKS AND WERE HIDING THE NUMBERS.

WHAT THEY WERE DOING IS A PERSON WOULD DIE IN A NURSING -- GET INFECTED IN A NURSING HOME AND SEND THEM TO THE HOSPITAL AND THEY WOULD DIE IN THE NOT AND SAID, OH, THAT WAS AT THE HOSPITAL, THAT WASN'T ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE NURSING HOME.

WHEN, IN FACT, IT WAS IN ALL LIKELIHOOD THE POLICY OF THE GOVERNOR THAT REQUIRED THE NURSING HOMES TO TAKE COVID INFECTED PATIENTS INTO THE NURSING HOMES AND THUS WERE INFECTING THE NONINFECTED PATIENTS.

FIVE STATES DID THAT, MICHIGAN IS ONE OF THEM.

THE GOVERNOR SAID THIS IS A POLICY THAT SHE IS GOING TO STAND BEHIND AND HOW MUCH SPREADING DID THAT DO?

I HAVE TALKED TO A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN THESE, THEY SAID THAT THERE WAS NOT PROPER PROCEDURES THAT WERE DONE A IN THE PROCESS AND THAT SOMETIMES IT WAS JUST A PLASTIC CURTAIN THAT SEPARATED THESE AND THEY HAD CROSS CONTAMINATION OF EMPLOYEES GOING BACK AND FORTH.

SO THERE IS MAJOR, MAJOR QUESTIONS, MAJOR STATISTICS THAT WE NEED TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF.

WE ARE NOT JUST GOING TO ACCEPT THAT THE GOVERNOR SAYS RECEIVING GREAT.

WE HAVE GREAT STATISTICS, WE HAVE GREAT DATA.

STEVE JOHNSON HAS ASKED HER DEPARTMENT HEAD, HERTEL FOR THIS INFORMATION AND REFUSES TO COME IN AND TESTIFY BEFORE THE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE THIS THE HOUSE.

>> SO SENATOR, ARE YOU ACCUSING THE GOVERNOR OF TRYING TO HIDE SOME OF THE DEATHS IN THE NURSING HOMES?

>> I AM ACCUSING HER OF LACK OF TRANSPARENCY.

WHAT WE FOUND OUT WITH DIRECTOR GORDON IS THAT THE GOVERNOR SAID WE ARE GOING TO MAKE SURE YOU CAN'T TALK.

WE ARE GOING TO GIVE YOU ALL OF THIS MONEY PROVIDED YOU DON'T TALK AND SHE ATTACKS THE SCHEIDER ADMINISTRATION FOR, I THINK IT WAS TWO MONTHS THAT HER TREASURY DIRECTOR COLLECTED MONEY.

THIS GUY IS GOING TO COLLECT NINE MONTHS AND CAN'T SAY A WORD.

I THINK THAT WHAT WAS GOING ON IS THERE WAS A WHOLE LOT OF DISASTROUS DECISIONS CRASH AND BURN DECISIONS IN DHHS AND GORDON KNEW ABOUT THEM AND THAT SHE WANTS HIM TO STAY SILENT, NOT SAY ANYTHING.

THAT IS WHAT I THINK HAPPENED.

SO WE ARE NOT GETTING ANSWERS ON ANY OF THESE THINGS.

SO WE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE ACCUSATIONS UNTIL WE KNOW WHAT THE FACTS ARE BUT SO FAR WE ARE NOT GETTING ANY FACTS.

>> ARE YOU GOING TO SUBPOENA HIM TO COME IN, MR.GORDON?

>> MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT IS -- WAS TALKED ABOUT THIS WEEK AND IT IS GOING TO BE DISCUSSED EVEN FURTHER NEXT WEEK.

>> AND WOULD YOU VOTE TO DO THAT, SIR?

>> YES, I WOULD.

>> ALL RIGHT.

WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A PAUSE HERE FOR SOME CLOSED CREDITS.

YOU HAVE AGREED TO STICK AROUND FOR MORE QUESTIONS AND WE WILL SORT OF, WE HAVE ONLY TOUCHED THE SURFACE HERE.

ARE YOU WILLING TO DO THAT, SIR?

>> YES.

>> GREAT.

PANELISTS HANG ON A SEVEN AND DO SOME CLOSED CREDITS AND BE BACK WITH OVER TIME WITH THE SENATOR.

IF YOU WILL GO TO WKAR.ORG, WE WILL SEE YOU THEN.

♪ ♪ >> PRODUCTION OF OFF THE RECORD IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING.

>> BUSINESS LEADERS FOR MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP10 STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOB, PERSONAL INCOME AND HEALTHY ECONOMY.

LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN'S ROAD TO TOP10.COM.

>> FOR MORE OFF THE RECORD, VISIT WKAR.ORG.

>> MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF OFF THE RECORD WITH TIM SKUBIC.

>> HERTEL.