>>> HIS LIFE INCLUDES STINTS AS A THEATER DIRECTOR IN SAN FRANCISCO, PITTSBURGH, AND DC., WORKING AS A PHYSICIAN'S ASSISTANT, A TUNE TARIAN MINISTER, SOCIAL ACTIVIST, CELLIST, AND MOST RECENTLY A NOVEL LIST.

MARC ESTRIN IS MY GUEST NEXT ON "PROFILE."

>>> MARC ESTRIN HOPPED FROM PRE-MED TO SCIENCE STUDIES TO A MASTER'S IN THEATRE ARTS AT UCLA, WHICH LANDED HIM SEVERAL THEATER DIRECTORSHIPS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

GODDARD COLLEGE RECRUITED HIM.

HE'S PERFORMED WITH BREAD AND PUPPET THEATER OVER 30 YEARS.

HE'S WORKED AS A PHYSICIAN'S ASSISTANT, DIRECTOR OF THE PEACE AND JUSTICE CENTER AND THE UNITARIAN MINISTER.

ESTRIN STARTED WRITING NOVELS LATE IN LIFE.

HE PLAYS CHEL LEFOR THE VERMONT PHILHARMONIC AND A NUMBER OF OTHER ORCHESTRAS IN VERMONT.

HE SINGS FOR THE VERMONT SYMPHONY CHORUS, ORIANA, AND THE BURLINGTON CHORAL SOCIETY.

ESTRIN LIVES WITH HIS WIFE IN BURLINGTON.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO YOU'RE PRE-MED IN COLLEGE, BUT YOU WERE TOLD BY YOUR PROFESSORS OR SOMETHING THAT BEING A DOCTOR JUST -- YOU WERE TOO SMART TO BE A DOCTOR AND, SURE ENOUGH, YOU ARE THE RECIPIENT OF A WRECK FELLER INSTITUTE -- ROCKEFELLER INSTITUTE FELLOWSHIP, AN INCREDIBLE HONOR.

IT'S A DOCTORAL PROGRAM IN BIKE CROW BIOLOGY.

THERE'S A ONE TO ONE RATIO TO NOBEL PRIZEWINNERS FOR THE INCOMING CLASS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> THERE ARE ONLY 40 STUDENTS TOTALLY, 10 A YEAR, AND THERE ARE 40 -- THERE WERE AT THE TIME 40 NOBEL PRIZEWINNERS ON THE FACULTY.

>> INCREDIBLE.

WHAT WAS THAT EXPERIENCE LIKE, AND WHY DIDN'T IT END UP WORKING OUT FOR YOU?

>> I THINK IT HAD TO DO WITH NOT RAE UNDERSTANDING WHAT I WAS GETTING INTO AS FAR AS ADVANCED SCIENCE WENT.

MY ORIGINAL CAREER GOALS WERE TO BE A DOCTOR AND TO HELP PEOPLE, AND THEN HERE I WAS IN THIS INSTITUTION THAT WAS FOCUSED ON SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.

AND THERE WERE NO PEOPLE.

THERE WERE COLLEAGUES, BUT WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THIS STUFF?

AT THE TIME THAT I WAS THERE, IT WAS REALLY THE BREAKTHROUGH TIME FOR D.N.A.

ANALYSIS, AND, IN FACT, THEY DISCOVERED THE FUNCTIONS OF R.N.

SA.

IN THE LAB I WAS WORKING IN.

SO IT CERTAINLY HAS APPLICATIONS, BUT PERSONALLY WHAT WOULD I BE DOING?

IT JUST FELT LONELY, AND IT FELT TOO ELITIST TO ME.

>> SO YOU LEAVE THIS VERY HEADY COMMUNITY, AND YOU GO TO UCLA TO GET A MASTER'S IN THEATER.

WHY THEATER?

>> I WAS THUMBING THROUGH THE UCLA CATALOG, AND I'D NEVER BEEN TO A SHOW.

WE COULD NEVER AFFORD TO GO TO SHOWS.

RIGHT?

>> RIGHT.

>> THAT SOUNDS INTERESTING.

IT WAS AS TRIVIAL AS THAT.

>> FANTASTIC.

>> [LAUGHTER] >> SO YOU GET OUT OF THAT, AND YOU'RE A THEATER DIRECTOR ALL OVER THE PLACE IN SAN FRANCISCO, PITTSBURGH.

YOU WROTE AND PERFORMED IN D.C.

YOU'RE ALSO DOING SOME AGITATIONAL THEATER IN SAN FRANCISCO.

ALSO, WHEN YOU COME HERE, YOU CONNECT WITH PETER SHOULD MANN AND BREAD AND PUPPET THEATER WHILE YOU'RE TEACHING AT ED GODDARD AND BREAD AND PUPPET CONTINUES TO BE A PART ARE YOUR LIFE.

YOU WROTE THIS WONDERFUL "REHEARSE WITH GOD" BOOK.

WHAT SIGNIFICANT IDEAS, EXPERIENCES OR VALUES DID THEATER BRING TO YOUR LIFE?

OR HAS IT BROUGHT TO YOUR LIFE?

>> WELL, IT IS BASICALLY WHAT WE DO IN THE WORLD.

THAT IS WE PERFORM.

WHETHER WE'RE PERFORMING AS COACH POTATOES OR PERFORMING AS GEORGE BUSH OR AS PETER SCHUMAN.

SO THE QUESTION OF WHAT SHOW ARE WE IN IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT.

WHAT I DID IN WASHINGTON AND SOMEWHAT IN SAN FRANCISCO WAS NOT WHAT YOU CALLED AGITATIONAL THEATER BUT I KNOW FILL TRAY TIFF THEATER, AND THE REASON WAS THAT ONE OF THE GREAT PROBLEMS OF THEORETICAL THEATER IS YOU HAVE AN AUDIENCE, THEY HAVE SIT DOWN, THEY WATCH THE SHOW, THEY GET UP, AND THEY GO HOME.

AND THE QUALITY OF THEIR EXPERIENCE IS MARGINAL COMPARED TO THE EXPERIENCE, THE EXPERIENCE OF HAMLET, THE EXPERIENCE OF KING LEAR, THE EXPERIENCE OF MOTHER COURAGE.

HOW CAN YOU BRING THE AUDIENCE EXPERIENCE CLOSER TO WHAT'S BEING PUT ONSTAGE?

THAT WAS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SOLVE.

THE IDEA WAS TO GET RID OF THE AUDIENCE.

GET RID OF THE AUDIENCE.

>> AND HAVE THEM HAVE A REAL EXPERIENCE.

>> HAVE THEM HAVE A REAL SPINLS.

I PUT A TROUPE TOGETHER, AND WE PLANNED A WHOLE LOT OF EVENTS WHERE THE AUDIENCE NEVER KNEW IT WAS A THEATER PIECE.

IT WAS JUST SOMETHING ODD AND STRANGE AND AMAZING AND THOUGHTFUL, THOUGHT-PROVOKING THAT HAPPENED THAT DAY.

AND THEN YOU JUST HAD AN EVENT WHICH TRIED TO EXTEND PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCE IN THE WORLD TO MAKE THEM THINK A LITTLE MORE CAREFULLY ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON.

SO THAT I KNOW FILL TRAY TIFF THEATER WAS, I THINK, PRETTY IMPORTANT.

PETER IS THE OTHER END OF THAT.

NOBODY THINKS THAT THE PUPPETS ARE REAL LIFE.

RIGHT?

BUT THAT'S AMAZING, TOO, WHAT GOES ON AT BREAD AND PUPPET BECAUSE OF THE INTERACTION WITH THE CREATION OF A CULTURE AROUND THIS SUBCULTURE.

OBVIOUSLY THE THEMES THAT HE WORKS WITH ARE ENORMOUS AND DEEPY FELT, AND THE PUPPETS ARE SO EXPRESSIVE.

THERE'S TWO OPPOSITE ENDS, ONE THAT LOOKS LIKE THEATER VERY MUCH AND ONE THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THEATER AT ALL.

AND THEY BOTH BRING ENORMOUS ADRENALINE TO THE AUDIENCE.

>> RIGHT.

BACKING UP ONLY JUST A LITTLE BIT, WHY YOU CAME TO VERMONT, IN 1969 YOU'RE RECRUITED BY ACTUALLY A STUDENT SEARCH COMMITTEE TO COME TO GODDARD.

AND INDEED YOU MOVE UP NOT ONLY YOURSELF BUT WITH A COMMUNE OF FOLKS AND PETS AND STUFF.

WHY WAS GODDARD A GOOD FIT FOR YOU?

>> AT THE TIME, JERRY WITHERSPOON WAS THE NEW PRESIDENT OF GODDARD, THE FIRST TO TAKE OVER SINCE TIM PIT KIN INVENTED THE SCHOOL.

SINCE THEN, THEY'VE HAD MANY PRESIDENTS.

BUT HE WAS ESSENTIALLY THE REVOLUTION AT GODDARD, THE NEXT STEP.

AND I DIDN'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT GODDARD, BUT I CAME UP.

JERRY FLEW ME UP.

I LANDED AT THE BARRY AIRPORT, AND I'D NEVER BEEN IN THE COUNTRY, FIRST OF ALL.

HE PICKED ME UP IN THE CAR, AND WE DRIVE TO PLAINFIELD, VERMONT, AND IT WAS JUNE.

WE'RE DRIVING ON THESE DIRT ROADS WITH TREES.

I WAS KNOCKED OUT.

LOS ANGELES WAS THE BIGGEST COUNTRY I'D EVER LIVED IN.

RURAL.

>> [LAUGHTER] >> FIRST OF ALL, THE SETTING WAS -- DO WE HAVE A WORD?

BOWLING OVER.

>> YOU WERE BROUGHT UP IN NEW YORK CITY BUT IN THE BRONX, NOT EVEN MANHATTAN.

>> IN THE STREETS OF THE BRONX.

IN CELLARS, BETWEEN CARS, STICK BALL IN THE STREETS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

I KNEW TREE, CAT, DOG, ROBIN.

I MEAN, NOT A LOT.

AND I STILL ONLY KNOW THAT.

>> [LAUGHTER] >> JERRY IS A GUY WHO LIKES TO SIT WITH A LEGAL-SIZED YELLOW AND AND WRITE THINGS, AND WE SAT UP ALL NIGHT.

WHAT HE SAID TO ME WAS, LOOK.

THIS IS A KEY POINT IN HISTORY.

WE HAVE NO HISTORY HERE.

WE WANT TO MAKE A NEW WORLD.

WE WANT TO MAKE GODDARD INTO A NEW WORLD.

WELL, WHAT A SUCKER LINE, HUH?

>> [LAUGHTER] >> HOW COULD I SAY NO?

I JUST WENT BACK TO WASHINGTON WHERE WE WERE AND SAID, OK, WE'RE MOVING.

>> GREAT.

>> AFTER SOME DISCUSSION, EVERYBODY SAID, GREAT.

LET'S GET IN THE CARS AND GO ON UP.

>> AND YOU'D TEACH JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING THERE.

>> AT THE TIME, THERE WERE NO DEPARTMENTS.

I GUESS THERE'S STILL NO DEPARTMENTS.

AND I TOOK THAT AS AN INVITATION TO TEACH WHAT I WANTED TO LEARN.

I CERTAINLY HAD A WIDE BACKGROUND, SO I WASN'T STARTING FROM SCRATCH TEACHING FIZZ 6S OR MATH -- PHYSICS OR MATH OR WHATEVER I GOT INTO.

>> YOU WERE THERE NEARLY 10 YEARS, AND IT MAY BE BECAUSE YOU SAW THE WRITING ON THE WALL, BUT YOU CERTAINLY WERE TALKED OUT OF BEING A DOCTOR.

SOMETHING ABOUT THAT CLEARLY WAS STILL PART OF YOUR FEELING, WHAT YOU NEEDED, AND YOU TRAINED TO BECOME A PHYSICIAN'S ASSISTANT.

>> MM-HMM.

>> WHICH YOU DID.

I'M WONDERING HOW DID THAT FIT INTO YOUR LIFE?

YOU WORKED MAINLY AT HEALTH CLINICS IN VERMONT CERTAINLY, IN PLAINFIELD, ALSO UP IN BURLINGTON AS AN ESM MT.

WHERE DOES THAT HEALTH PROFESSIONAL FIT INTO YOUR LIFE?

>> WELL, I MISS IT A LOT ACTUALLY, ESPECIALLY THE E.M.T.

PART, BECAUSE THAT WAS WHAT I NEEDED TO FEEL I WAS DOING SOMETHING SILL.

YOU GET A CALL AT 3:00 IN THE MORNING, SOMETHING'S HAVING A HEART ATTACK, AND YOU'RE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, ALTHOUGH WHERE I WAS WORKING YOU COULDN'T DO A LOT ABOUT IT, BECAUSE YOU HAD A LONG AMBULANCE TRIP IN WHICH THEY WOULD DIE.

BUT STILL THE IDEA OF SERVICE IS, I THINK, WONDERFULLY ESSENTIALIZED IN MEDICAL CARE.

MY DAUGHTER IS AN E.R.

DOC NOW, SO SHE'S DOING IT FOR ME.

IN FACT SHE PROVIDED A LOT OF INFORMATION, THE E.R.

STUFF, FOR GOLEM SONG.

>> SURE.

WHERE YOUR PROTAGONIST IS AN E.R.

NURSE.

>> RIGHT.

>> BEFORE WE GET TO YOUR WRITING, WHICH WE WILL GET TO, ANOTHER THING IN YOUR LIFE, YOU BECOME A UNITARIAN MINISTER.

WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

>> I WAS AT THE TIME THE DIRECTOR OF THE PEACE AND JUSTICE CENTER, AND WE WERE DOING LEAF FOOTING AT GENERAL ELECTRIC WHICH AT THE TIME WAS MAKING GAT LING GUNS FOR EL SALVADOR TO KILL PEOPLE IN CENTRAL AMERICA.

YOU KNOW.

AND WE WERE DOWN THERE EARLY IN THE MORNING, AND I'M HANDING A LEAFLET OUT TO ONE OF THE WORKERS, AND HE SAYS, I KNOW THIS STUFF.

I KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL ME.

I SAID, WHY ARE YOU DOING IT?

HE SAYS, HEY, MAN, IT'S A GOOD JOB.

AND I REALIZED THAT WAS THE DIRECTOR OF THE PEACE AND JUSTICE CENTER, I HAD NO IDEA HOW TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

SO I THOUGHT I'D BETTER GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND LEARN THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION.

WHAT CAN YOU STUDY?

PLUS WHAT WOULD ENABLE ME TO USE ALL THE THINGS THAT I CAN DO TO BE A TEACHER, TO BE A PERFORMER, TO BE A THEATER PERSON, TO BE A SCHOLAR, ET CETERA, ET CETERA?

IT ALL CAME IN THIS BOX CALLED MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE A UNITARIAN MINISTER.

I'D NEVER BEEN IN A CHURCH.

RIGHT?

>> HM.

BUT YOU APPLIED AS A JEWISH BOOED DISS ATHEIST, SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

>> YEAH.

THEY DON'T CARE.

AND IT WAS IN FACT GREAT.

ARY;ARY WAS FABULOUS, BEST INSTITUTION IN MY LIFE.

AND THEN I GOT IN TROUBLE.

I GOT NOT REHIRED.

I THINK OF IT ALWAYS FIRED FOR BEING TOO POLITICAL IN BOTH CONGREGATIONS THAT I WENT TO AND -- >> IN YOUR BOOK, CERTAINLY YOU GRAPPLE WITH THE NATURE OF MORALITY AND TRUTH AND THE IMPACT OF VALUE SYSTEMS ON OUR PSYCHE.

DID WRITING THEM TURN OUT TO BE A BETTER -- >> OH, WAY BETTER.

>> -- ENDEV INVESTOR FOR THE SCHOLAR IN YOU?

>> MM-HMM.

>> THE WRITER, THE THINKER, THE GRAPPLING WITH THE BIG ISSUES.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S MUCH, MUCH BETTER.

I DON'T HAVE TO DO COFFEE HOUR.

>> [LAUGHTER] >> YOU DIDN'T TAKE UP WRITING UNTIL YOU'RE 58 YEARS OLD, NEARLY A DECADE AGO.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHAT GOT YOU STARTED?

WHO GOT YOU STARTED?

>> WHAT GOT ME STARTED IS THE CURRENT BOOK, WHICH IS THE THIRD BOOK.

THAT GOT ME STARTED BECAUSE OF THE PHONE CALL THAT I GOT FROM SOMEBODY WHO WANTED ME TO SEND HIM A HIGH-POWERED RIFLE WITH A TELESCOPIC SIGHT BECAUSE HE WANTED TO KILL BLACK PEOPLE IN NEW YORK CITY.

>> YOU'RE FROM NEW YORK, AND HE CALLS YOU UP.

>> BECAUSE THERE'S GOING TO BE A WAR BETWEEN THE BLACKS AND THE JEWS.

SO THAT WAS VERY DISTURBING, AND I WROTE IT DOWN JUST FOR I DON'T KNOW WHY.

BUT THEN I HAD THE EXPERIENCE, THIS KIND OF WAR EXPERIENCE OF WRITERS THAT YOU HAVE THIS THING IN FRONT OF YOU ON THE SCREEN AND YOU HAVE THESE FINGERS, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY START DOING OTHER THINGS.

AND THIS STARTS TO GROW.

AND IT GREW INTO A NOVEL WHICH NOBODY WANTED TO BUY, BUT WHEN I STARTED WRITING PEOPLE THAT I WAS ALSO BEGINNING TO WORK ON "INSECT DREAMS," THEY LIKED THAT IDEA, AND THAT'S WHAT GOT SOLD.

THAT'S WHAT FOUND ME MY PUBLISHER AND MY EDITOR.

>> IT BECAME THE THIRD PUBLISHED, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS THE FIRST ONE YOU TWROAT.

THE FIRST ONE PUBLISHED WAS "INSECT DREAMS."

>> RIGHT.

>> BEFORE WE LEAVE GOLEM SONG, TELL US THE STORY OF THE GOLEM, AND HOW OVER THE YEARS IT SEEMED THAT, SINCE YOU WROTE THE BOOK, WHICH WAS IN THE LATE 1990'S, YOU'VE NOTICED GOLEMMISM AT WORK IN THE WORLD TODAY.

>> WELL, THE GOLEM ORIGINAL STORY IS ABOUT AN UPCOMING LOOKED LIKE A SERIOUS POE GROM IN PRAGUE.

AND THE RABBI, IN ORDER TO COUNTER THIS COMING ATTACK ON THE JEWISH COMMUNITY IN PRAGUE, WENT TO THE RIVER, BROUGHT UP A LOT OF CLAY INTO THE ATTIC OF THE SYNAGOGUE AND FASHIONED IT INTO THIS GIGANTIC FIGURE.

THE PROBLEM COMES BECAUSE HE THEN USED CAB BALLISTIC MAGIC AND DIFFERENT VARIATIONS OF THE STORY BUT MAKES THIS INTO A LIVING BEING WHICH IS PROBLEMATICAL BECAUSE HUMAN BEINGS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO TURN -- >> IT'S A VERY FRANKENSTEIN-LIKE STORY.

>> IT'S VERY FRANKENSTEIN.

IT HAS VARIATIONS ON THAT.

AND IT'S BEFORE FRANKENSTEIN.

>> RIGHT.

VERY MUCH SO.

>> SO THEN THIS PROTECTOR OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY SCARES AWAY THE POGROM, YES, BUT THEN BECOMES, BY A CERTAIN ACCIDENT OF MISCOMMUNICATION, DESTRUCTIVE AND BEGINS TO DESTROY EVERYTHING AND GET OUT OF HAND, SO THE RABBI HAS TO TAKE HIM BACK UPSTAIRS AND KILL HIM.

THE IDEA OF USING A LARGE-SCALE VIOLENCE OR THE POTENTIAL -- SETTING UP THE POTENTIAL FOR LARGE-SCALE VIOLENCE IN ORDER TO PROTECT YOURSELF IS SO PREVALENT, IT SEEMS TO ME, IN THE WORLD TODAY THAT WE REALLY OUGHT TO THINK ABOUT THE GOLEM MYTH BECAUSE THERE ARE VERY INTERESTING QUALITIES THAT THAT MYTH HAS THAT NORMAL POLITICAL ANALYSIS DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.

FOR INSTANCE, THERE IS VERY MUCH, IN THAT GOLEM STORY, THE SENSE BOTH OF BEING A VICTIM AND A SUPER MAN.

THOSE TWO THINGS TOGETHER.

RIGHT?

OH, THEY ATTACKED US IN 9/11.

OH, WE'RE THE MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

OH, BUT WE'RE UNDER ATTACK.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

THE ENTER AS OF -- INTERACTION OF -- AND THEN YOU USE THE FEAR OF THE UNTERMINSCH.

>> AND THERE'S THIS IDENTIFICATION WITH ETHNICITY, WHETHER IT'S AFRICAN-AMERICANS OR YOUR JEW WISH PROTAGONIST THAT LEADS TO POSSIBLE VIOLENCE.

AND YOU DEAL WITH THIS IN OTHER BOOKS AS WELL, THAT KIND OF DANG RULS PIECE OF BUSINESS.

IT MAKES ME WONDER, GOING BACK TO, WHAT IS JEWISHNESS FOR YOU?

IT'S VERY MUCH PART OF THE DIALOGUE OF THIS BOOK.

THE MONOLOGUE AND DIALOGUE OF THIS BOOK AND YOUR CHARACTER.

>> WELL, I GREW UP IN AN ENTIRELY JEWISH NEIGHBORHOOD.

THERE WASN'T ONE NONJEWISH SKID IN MY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

I WENT OUT OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD TO GO TO JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL, AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN IT WAS THE JEWS VERSUS THE ITALIANS, THE KIDS THAT CAME UP, THE SPECIAL PROGRESS KIDS THAT CAME UP.

AND A FRIEND OF MINE WAS STABBED.

STABBED.

DON'T DO THAT.

>> [LAUGHTER] AND SO I REALLY DID GROW UP JEWISH.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I WAS A RED DIAPER BABY.

MY PARENTS WERE COMMUNISTS.

I WAS THE ONLY KID ON THE BLOCK THAT DIDN'T GO TO HEBREW SCHOOL AND HAD NO JEWISH EXPERIENCE AS THEOLOGY OR ANYTHING ELSE.

AND SO I WASN'T A JEW FOR A LONG TIME.

I GREW UP IN A JEWISH NEIGHBORHOOD.

I LIKED PASTRAMI SANDWICHES AND BLACK CHERRY SODA.

AND IT WAS ACTUALLY THE CONFLICTS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS THAT MADE ME OPEN THAT DOOR AGAIN, BECAUSE AS A JEW THE QUOTATION MARKS CAME OFF.

>> YEAH.

>> AND I HAD TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANT, TO BE A JEW.

AND ALSO WHAT SOMEBODY IN "INSECT DREAMS" CALLED ME A NEW JEWISH WRITER.

WHAT?

>> [LAUGHTER] BUT THEN I THOUGHT THIS WAS A CRITIC.

YOU KNOW HOW CRITICS CHANGE YOUR LIFE.

HM.

AM I A JEWISH WRITER?

SO THAT, TOO, MADE ME TRY TO THINK MORE CAREFULLY ABOUT WHAT THIS WHOLE JUDAISM THINK WAS ABOUT.

>> ONE OF THE MOST REMARKABLE -- WELL, THERE ARE MANY GREAT SCENES IN GOLEM SONG, BUT YOU HAVE LUNCH -- THE PROTAGONIST, NOT YOU, HAS LUNCH WITH A LIVING PHILOSOPHER, MARTHA NUSBAUM, WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT ETHICS AND JEWISHNESS AND THE CHARACTER IS VERY INVOLVED IN THIS WHOLE THING.

HOW DID YOU GET PERMISSION FROM HER, AND WHAT WAS HER REACTION?

>> WELL, IT WAS WORSE THAN THAT.

WE DIDN'T JUST HAVE LUNCH.

THE CHARACTER WANTS TO MAKE OUT WITH HER.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

>> RIGHT.

THAT'S TRUE.

>> HE HAS ALL THESE LASCIVIOUS THOUGHTS ABOUT MARTHA NUSBAUM, AND HE WRITES ABOUT IT.

THE CHAPTER WHERE HE SEES HER ON THE BACK COVER OF A BOOK AND DECIDES HE HAS TO GET HER IS CALLED "HOW CAN ANYBODY NAMED MARTHA NUSBAUM LOOK LIKE THAT?"

AND SO I HAD THIS PROBLEM OF HAVING TO GET HER PERMISSION FOR THIS, AND IT TOOK ME A LONG TIME TO WORKUP THE COURAGE, AND I FINALLY WROTE HER AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, AND SHE WROTE BACK THE SAME DAY AND HEAD, SOUNDS LIKE FUN.

SEND WHAT YOU'VE GOT.

SO I SENT HER THE CHAPTER.

SHE SAYS, OH, THIS IS GREAT.

IT'S VERY FUNNY.

MY BOYFRIEND LOVES IT.

>> YOU DID A READING WITH HER.

>> ONE READING.

I WENT OUT A COUPLE OF WEEKS TO UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO.

WE DID A READING TOGETHER OF HER SCENE.

WE HAD SO MUCH FUN, WE'RE GOING TO DO IT AGAIN AT HARVARD.

SHE'S TEACHING AT HARVARD THIS SEMESTER.

>> THE STYLE IS SO IMBUED WITH -- IT'S ALL DIALOGUE.

IT'S JUST RANTING AND DIALOGUE AND MONOLOGUES.

IS THAT WHAT YOU INTENDED OR IS THAT WHAT CAME OUT?

THIS IS YOUR FIRST BOOK.

>> I'M PRETTY MUCH OF AN EAR PERSON.

I CAN BE IN A ROOM FOR SIX HOURS AND COME OUT AND NOT TELL YOU WHAT COLOR THE WALLS ARE OR WHAT YOU'RE WEARING.

SO A LOT OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH HEARING PEOPLE SPEAKING OR HEARING MUSIC THAT'S IN THE BOOKS.

YOU KNOW, I FEEL VERY DEFICIENT IN THE VISUAL AREAS OF THE BOOKS BUT, IF I CAN PUSH THE DIE LOCAL UP ENOUGH, I DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT.

>> WHEN YOU WROTE "INSECT DREAMS," WHICH GOES BACK TO KAFKA'S META MORE FOR SIS, THAT WAS PUBLISHED IN 2003 TO INCREDIBLE ACCLAIM.

THERE'S STUNNING NATIONAL REVIEWS.

THE LOCAL PEOPLE ARE GOING NUTS.

>> IT GOT PICKED UP IN TURKEY.

THEY'RE GOING TO PUBLISH A TURKISH TRANSLATION AND ALSO A GERMAN TRANSLATION.

>> IT'S REALLY QUITE BRILLIANT.

IT'S A VERY -- IT'S GOT A LOT OF DEPTH.

IT'S SCHOLARLY.

IT'S AN INTRIGUING STORY.

IT REALLY WORKS.

HOW DID THE ATTENTION AFFECT YOU AND YOUR WRITING?

>> YOU KNOW, WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THERE'S SUCH AN ENORMOUS TIME LAG BETWEEN ATTENTION AND WHAT YOU'VE DONE THAT, IN A CERTAIN SENSE, YOU CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER, FOR ME, WHAT WAS THAT BOOK ABOUT?

WHAT'S IN IT?

AND I HAVE THAN READ THESE BOOKS, YOU KNOW, SO SOME TIMES I THINK, OH, THERE'S A SCENE.

IT'S NOT IN THERE.

IT GOT CUT.

>> [LAUGHTER] >> SO THE ATTENTION IS ALWAYS OUT OF PHASE, AND IT DOESN'T IMPINGE VERY MUCH AT ALL.

>> WAS THIS A BOOK ALSO JUST READY TO BE WRITTEN?

WAS THIS SOMETHING THAT YOU'D THOUGHT ABOUT, WHAT HAPPENED TO GREGOR AND -- >> NO.

>> -- BECAUSE IT COVERS THAT WHOLE FIRST HALF OF THE 20TH CENTURY.

IT'S VERY HISTORICALLY DEEP.

>> I HAD DONE SOME PREVIOUS WORK ACTUALLY WITH MARCEL MAR SEAU.

WE WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE A PRODUCTION.

I HAD BEEN OVER A LOT OF THE ATOMIC MATERIAL ALREADY, AND THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.

AND THE IDEA OF STICKING THE COCKROACH -- THE SIX FOOT TALKING COCKROACH INTO IT CAME TO ME UNLIKE ANY OTHER OF MY OTHER BOOKS BECAUSE I HAD VISITED KAFKA'S GRAVE AND WRITTEN HIM A NOTE AND STUCK IT IN THE GRAVEL LIKE ALL THE OTHER NOTES THERE AND INVITED HIM TO COME VISIT US IN VERMONT IF HE HAD ANY TIME.

THEN ONE NIGHT, ABOUT THREE WEEKS LATER -- I HAD NO IDEA OF THIS BOOK.

THE ENTIRE BOOK CAME INTO MY HEAD ALL AT ONCE, BEGINNING TO END.

A FEW CHARACTERS WALKED IN THAT WEREN'T THERE ORIGINALLY.

BUT ALL THE OTHER BOOKS START FROM THESE VERY TINY IDEAS AND DEVELOP AS THEMSELVES, BUT THIS ONE CAME AS A WHOLE.

>> QUICKLY, THE EDUCATION OF ARNOLD HITLER COVERS AN EARLY PART OF YOUR LIFE.

IT'S A COMING OF AGE, BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT THE SECOND HALF OF THE 20TH CENTURY.

>> UP TO 1973.

>> WELL, RIGHT.

UP TO 1973.

HERE IT SEEMS THAT YOU EXPLORE LANGUAGE AND THE TRUTH OF LANGUAGE AND HOW IT CAN ALSO BE DISTORTED AND DEV NIFTIONS CAN BE DISTORTED -- DEFINITIONS CAN BE DISTORTED.

HOW ARE WE DOING WITH OUR USE OF LANGUAGE TODAY IN AMERICAN CULTURE?

>> I CAN'T IMAGINE IT GETTING ANY WORSE.

THE EMPTINESS OF COMMON SPEECH, THE VICIOUS PROPAGANDA USE OF POLITICAL SPEECH, THE CONSEQUENCE, CYNICISM AROUND THE NOTION THAT ANYTHING COULD BE TRUE OR PREFERABLE, IT'S ALL LANGUAGE RELATED.

IN FACT, THIS BOOK, "ARNOLD HITLER," DID START OUT JUST WITH THE IDEA OF WHAT'S CALLED SEMIOTICS, A FREE-FLOATING SIGNIFICANT NYE PHIER.

STORY'S ABOUT A REALLY NICE GUY WITH A VERY CRAPPY NAME.

AND SOMEHOW THIS WORD COMPLETELY OVERSHADOWS HIS ENORMOUSLY ATTRACTIVE PERSONAL QUALITIES, AND HE'S A VERY, VERY INTERESTING FAILURE JUST BECAUSE HIS NAME IS HITLER, EVEN THOUGH HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE GREATEST SUCCESS.

>> JUST ONE MINUTE LEFT.

SORRY.

BUT MUSIC IS SO MUCH A PART OF YOUR LIFE.

HOW HAS IT CONTRIBUTED TO YOUR -- >> FIRST, IT KEEPS ME SANE.

I HAD THIS VISION WHEN WE WERE PLAYING A MENDEL SEWN CONCERTO YEARS AGO.

WE WERE PLAYING DOWN THESE BEAUTIFUL, SIMPLE CHORDS, AND I REALIZED THAT WAS THE ABSOLUTE SPECIFIC ANTIDOTE TO SHARON AND WHAT WAS GOING DOWN IN PALESTINE.

>> AND YOU WRITE ABOUT IT SO ELOQUENTLY.

ARE YOU HOPEFUL FOR THE FUTURE?

>> YES AND NO.

I FINALLY KNOW BECAUSE I DON'T THINK WE CAN OUTRUN THE PLANETARY CATASTROPHY, AND I DON'T THINK WE CAN JOWD RUN THE FINANCIAL CATASTROPHY THAT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN BECAUSE OF THE WAY WE HANDLED OUR HUGE DEBT.

I'M A LITTLE BIT OPTIMISTIC ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN LATIN AMERICA.

>> OK.

I'M SORRY WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

MARC ESTRIN, ALWAYS WONDERFUL TO TALK WITH YOU.

THANKS FOR COMING HERE, AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON PROFILE .

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