♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> Marc Morial, president and CEO of the National Urban League, next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

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♪♪ ♪♪ >> We are really honored to have the president and CEO of the National Urban League, the Honorable Marc Morial.

Welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> I'm so glad to be with you.

And, look, congratulations on "The Chavis Chronicles," and also congratulations and thank you for your long legacy of service and advocacy.

>> Well, thank you, Marc.

I really want to know something about your upbringing.

I mean, such a rich story from being in New Orleans.

Tell us about your family and then how you came up.

>> So, I'm from New Orleans.

New Orleans is my home.

My parents, both activists, my late father, Ernest "Dutch" Morial, my mother, who will make 91 very soon -- is still with us -- met approximately three weeks after the Brown v. Board of Education decision.

>> 1954.

>> 1954.

My father had just finished LSU law school and was the first African-American to finish that school.

>> I was gonna say, there hadn't been that many graduates of LSU law school... >> He was the first -- >> ...in the 1950s.

>> First.

You're right.

1954.

He was the first when he finished in May of '54.

And when he finished, he said his -- My mother and he were at a party, and a discussion ensued about Brown v. Board and what it would mean for the South.

And my father said -- He and my mother, who was at that time a student at Boston University and a classmate of Dr. King... >> Yes.

>> ...working on a master's degree, had come home just for a few weeks.

And she said they got into an energizing discussion.

They went out the day after, and they were never separated after that.

>> Oh, that's a great love story.

>> And so it was really their commitment to civil rights and equal justice that really brought them together in a relationship.

I think that notion -- I feel like it was injected into my DNA... >> Yes.

>> ...and into the DNA -- I have three sisters, you know, and a brother.

And my father, of course, had a very pioneering political career.

>> Everybody knows about Dutch Morial being the strong leader -- and I'll emphasize "strong"... >> Unapologetic.

>> ...mayor of New Orleans.

>> Unapologetically Black.

>> Yes.

>> Unapologetically principled in terms of what he believed in as mayor of New Orleans.

But before that, he was the first Black to be elected to the Louisiana legislature, the first Black Assistant United States Attorney, first Black to be a family court judge, and the first appellate court judge in the state's history.

So he had sort of a Jackie Robinson career and was a pioneer and opened a whole host of doors.

My parents were very in some ways new-school, in other ways old-school.

You know, we were gonna go to school, we were gonna go to church, we were gonna have chores, we were gonna toe the line, and that's pretty much what it was.

But growing up, they were active.

My father was the NAACP branch president.

My mother was a teacher and a union activist.

Growing up, going to rallies and meetings and civil rights activations and churches was just what we always did.

And so my brother and I particularly just kind of took to the activism and took to politics and took to civil rights.

And it's been definitional of who I am and what I do.

>> Well, that kind of upbringing, then you yourself become mayor of New Orleans.

>> And I became mayor at a young age.

I was 35.

I got sworn in when I had just turned 36.

And I took a city which was literally in the prone position, with 450 killings and murders, a corrupt police department, and really a stagnant economy.

And, you know, I think what had happened, too, is, you know, you had the energy post-civil rights and the energy of the first generation of African-American leadership.

And then momentum seemed to have been lost.

The city had some serious economic problems.

So my job was to wake up the giant.

>> Right.

>> My job was to energize.

>> You brought the city back.

It was a big comeback experience.

>> It was a comeback experience, and it was a comeback experience, but in many respects, I think what I tell people -- we created a movement.

And that movement helped to bring the city back.

It was a movement of purpose.

It was a movement of energy.

I never saw politics for politics' purpose or end.

I always saw it as a means.

I should say, I never saw it as an end.

I always saw it as a means to an end.

The art of democracy, the art of lawmaking, the art of policymaking, the art of making a difference.

And that's what motivated me.

>> So then fast-forward.

You become -- I remember when there was a search committee going on to find the new head of the Urban League.

And when I heard your name was in the pool, I said, "My man, nobody -- Who else can beat Marc Morial?"

And of course, it was probably the best decision that the National Urban League has made.

Now, how long have you been?

>> I've been 20 years, Ben, 20 years at the NUL.

I feel like I just started last week 'cause I'm still energized.

But I think you're right.

My job, task, or assignment was to take an organization that had a long and proud history, but in many respects was sort of moored in the 20th century, and it needed to be brought into the 21st century.

That means it needed to be a stronger advocate.

It means it needed a new generation of local affiliate leaders, a new generation of staff, a new generation of board members.

That means we needed to rethink a whole host of things, but we needed to build fresh.

But we were building on a great foundation.

NUL, the National Urban League, has only had 8 presidents in 113 years.

And so what it's had is stability.

And that stability, I think, is what has allowed it to grow.

So, it's been an incredible experience.

And as you know, one of the things I also committed to when I got to the National Urban League is this idea that civil rights and social justice leaders should collaborate with each other and not compete with each other.

>> Exactly.

>> There was too much, I always felt, ego-driven, uh -- an ego-driven environment, a competitive environment.

>> Almost a false competition... >> Yeah!

>> ...for a mantle that didn't even exist.

>> And I -- Look, I'll tell you, when I got to the League -- and, I mean, I had sensed it, but when I got there, I said, "I'm not gonna play this game, and I'm going to try to see if we can turn this ark" -- because the, if you will, challenges that we face are so significant that only with all hands on deck can you tackle them.

>> When I think about the Urban League and when the Black community thinks about the Urban League, even today, we think about the economic question.

We think about the business development question, the wealth generation question.

Tell us, from your informed perspective, being there 20 years, is the pendulum swinging in the right direction toward Black economic development, getting a firm foundation so we can build upon it?

>> It's swinging, Ben, but it's swinging into stiff winds.

There are forces that push against the swinging of the pendulum.

And in the last 20 years we've been on a roller coaster.

The Black home ownership rate almost reached 50% around 2005 and '06.

And then you had the bubble burst.

>> Yes.

>> You had the Great Recession.

We lost 8% to 10% of the overall Black home ownership rate due to the Great Recession.

And then there was, if you will, the COVID recession... >> Yes.

>> which again put a dent.

>> Disproportionately.

>> Disproportionately.

>> Hit us harder... >> Much harder.

>> ...than any other community.

>> Much harder.

It hit every community, but it hit us harder.

The foreclosures were high.

One of the things coming out of the Great Recession was a bit of a reluctance by some to become home owners, the fear that buying a home was risky.

"I could lose that home.

I could damage my credit.

I could get stuck with a deficiency judgment."

And we have to -- we have to do a lot more work to centralize the idea that home ownership remains a wealth-building tool.

>> Yes.

>> 90% of the average American's wealth is in the equity in their home.

So you're not gonna build -- >> Wait a minute.

Say that again.

>> 90% of the average American's wealth is in the equity of their home, the average, middle-income, working-class American.

>> So that means Black people need to know, then, not just the value, but the long-term benefit of owning your home.

Because, you know, there was a generation that felt, "Well, I'm gonna go get a -- rent this and that.

I'm gonna buy this car.

You know, I'm gonna stack some paper, but I don't own anything."

>> And automobiles are depreciating assets.

Clothing are depreciating assets.

Electronic equipment are depreciating assets.

All of these things -- Real estate tends to be an appreciating asset over time.

And it is equity in one's home, borrowing against it, that can help pay for your child's education.

Borrowing against it, if you build equity, can also be, if you will, a way to take care of emergency bills.

That's why the National Urban League has a big emphasis on home ownership, a big emphasis on homebuyer education, a big emphasis on trying to create down-payment assistance programs and continuing advocacy and pressure on financial institutions, on Fannie and Freddie, on regulators, on the White House and on the Congress to do more to advance home ownership in the Black community.

>> The financial services community, including banks -- are you getting a responsiveness from the banking community for financial services?

>> It's a mixed record.

There are those that have made significant commitments.

There are those that are struggling to carry through on those commitments.

There are many who've paid lip service to the commitments.

There are many who've not made any commitments.

There are lots of banks in the United States of America.

There's banks.

There's credit unions, a lot of financial services companies.

And we need a much stronger Community Reinvestment Act.

We need much stronger, if you will, enforcement of the Community Reinvestment Act.

We need more states to be attentive to things like redlining.

We need more cities to be proponents of inclusionary zoning.

We need much more of an emphasis on increasing -- because here's what the numbers show, Ben.

Black and Latino families are soon going to be the majority of potential new homeowners.

So, to some extent, working on Black home ownership -- yes, it's a fairness issue, yes, it's a justice issue, yes, it's an equity issue, but it's a plain economic development and economic growth issue.

>> For the whole society.

>> For the whole nation.

>> So, listen, Marc, there's been a lot of attention about the disparity in appraisals.

>> Yes.

>> Even those of us who get a chance to own some property, when it's appraised, their race makes a difference about how your land is appraised.

How are you dealing with that?

>> Let me describe for people.

People say, "Well, what do you really mean?"

So, I'll take a community where pretty much the very same house in one neighborhood that may happen to be predominantly white appraises at, let's say, 300,000.

And a house that looks almost exactly the same, same square footage, same features in a predominantly black community would appraise for $175,000.

People say that's the essence of discrimination in appraisals.

Now, the appraiser community, meaning those that do the appraisers, remains an overwhelmingly white and an overwhelmingly male profession.

So with our new initiative, the Diverse Appraisers Initiative -- >> This is an initiative by the Urban League.

>> By the Urban League.

We're working to prepare, working to get young people with a focus on the African-American community, a focus on that, into the appraisal profession.

To be a licensed appraiser, you have to work under the tutelage of an experienced appraiser.

So it's sort of an industry that was structurally set up to be about fathers and sons and fathers and nephews.

It was -- The rules were incestuous and the rules were designed so you have lots of second-, sometimes third-generation appraisers in the United States.

So we're working to diversify, but we're also working to raise awareness about this disparity in value.

You know, when I -- I'll just use an example -- sold one of the houses I lived in, the real-estate agent in the neighborhood was predominantly white with a handful of African-American families said, "The first thing I have to ask you to do, recommend that you do, you have to take this African art and this black art off your wall, because when the buyers come --" >> The real-estate agent said that?

>> Yes.

Of course, you know, I didn't like what the real-estate agent said.

I was deeply offended, because I had very nice art, African art, New Orleans art.

But most of the images were images of jazz or black people, you know, the communities that I grew up in and love.

But it was an example of how the real-estate agent was saying, "Look, I don't like that I'm going to tell you this, but this becomes a factor in the buyer's mind-set, you know, 'Who has lived in this house before?'"

So, this bias is pervasive in the real-estate industry.

And by dealing with the appraisal situation is going to take a long time to change, but we're trying to build awareness.

What does it say?

The industry has to adopt new methodologies of how it appraises homes, and it's too focused on location, and location is also being impacted by race because of redlining, because of gentrification, because of the way in which black families were steered into -- in the North, into predominantly African-American neighborhoods.

And black families in much of the South were banned from living in many, many neighborhoods.

>> I'm listening to you very carefully, and it seems to be a complexity of systemic racism.

But, also, you know, all challenges, all problems have solutions.

Tell us about what you've learned, what works, from the Urban League perspective, to overcome these disparities, to first highlight and expose that they exist, but how do we gain ground on this situation?

The American economy appears to be on a recovery.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> We need to make sure that the black community is not left out of this economic recovery.

>> When it comes to housing, some basic things work.

Homebuyer education or housing counseling works.

That means educating people, giving people a chance to be educated or informed, giving them a counselor to work with them to learn the differences in mortgages, how to evaluate pricing, how to make sure that whatever you buy meets your family budget and that you don't try to chew more than you can swallow.

That's number one.

>> And make sure you have a family budget.

>> Yes, makes sure.

Secondly, what works are down-payment-assistance programs, because many times, if you don't have the family wealth and you don't have the savings, you don't have the down payment.

>> We interviewed Marcia Fudge, the secretary of HUD, Housing and Urban Development.

She said that there's federal money available... >> Yes.

>> ...for down-payment assistance.

But as you know, Marc, a lot of the communities in which we work in get information late, sometimes, they get inaccurate information, and sometimes, they miss the opportunity.

>> That's why trusted community-based organizations like ours come in.

We can administer down-payment-assistance programs.

We are a big provider of homebuyer education.

We do about 50,000 cases a year.

But down-payment assistance, and then the other component that I believe works is what I call soft second mortgages, which means that you get an opportunity to reduce the amount of the mortgage because there's a subsidy on the back end.

These types of tools worked for us when I was the mayor of New Orleans.

These types of tools have worked in communities across the nation in assuring that their pathways to home ownership.

See, sometimes, the affordable-housing conversation gets very twisted.

When I say "affordable housing," do I mean apartments that are affordable?

Yes.

But I don't mean just apartments that are affordable.

I mean we have to make homes affordable to people.

>> Sometimes, people's rents that they're paying, it's like a house payment, but -- >> Or more.

>> That's right.

Particularly in the big urban areas, right.

>> You're putting it out, putting it out, putting it out, and you're not investing equity.

That's where homebuyer education or housing counseling comes in.

The ability to educate people about the distinction between renting and buying, buying and renting.

You know, I use the example -- in our communities, people would many times have to rent furniture.

And sometimes, when they looked at what they paid -- >> For the rental, they could have bought it.

>> They had paid for the furniture three, four, five times.

So this notion, if we can create -- We have to create a buying/ownership culture in the black community.

We have to recognize that, you know, it is our 40 acres and a mule circa 2021, '22, '23.

That's what we have to do, and it's a very important part of civil-rights advocacy.

It's a very important part of what we do.

So we do homebuyer education.

We do job training.

So we're trying to also prepare people for better-paying jobs so that they can, in fact, afford a down payment.

>> How do you see the intersection between civil rights and economic development?

>> They go hand in hand.

Let's think about it, Ben.

Slavery was an economic system.

It was designed to afford to the white planter class free labor.

>> Right.

>> Because the labor was free, the labor was cheap.

Then the profit earned by the planter was much, much higher.

It was a system of economic exploitation.

By the very same token, today, the Civil Rights Movement was about what?

We want access to eat at any restaurant of our choice.

We want the ability to work at any job of our choice.

We want to go to any school of higher education of our choice.

I mean, to a great extent, the Civil Rights Movement was about economic access.

And when it came down to fundamental things like voting, we wanted to vote so we could place people at the table who would pursue policies that help create economic access for us, whether it's affordable health insurance in a sense of the Affordable Care Act or Medicaid, whether it is, if you will, access to jobs in automobiles or jobs in manufacturing or jobs in the old IBM, Xerox management-training jobs, or, today, jobs in the technology industry with the Googles and the Metas and the Intels of the world and the Comcasts and the Charters and the others.

Here today, it's about access to those jobs.

So I don't think you can separate social and economic justice.

I don't think you can separate the conversation about civil rights and economic growth and economic development.

I think they are linked.

I think they're inextricably intertwined.

And I think we should learn to discuss it in those ways.

>> So, Marc, given all that you know -- and you deal with a myriad of issues that impact the quality of life not only of African, but all Americans -- but sitting here today, Marc Morial, what gives you your greatest hope for the future?

>> I would say two things.

One is a sense of history, that no matter how dark the hour was, no matter how great the challenges were, people overcame and they not only survived and thrived.

That gives me encouragement and that gives me hope.

Secondly, the energy of the young people, the ingenuity of the young people, the innovation of the young people, the value proposition that I think many young Americans have when it comes to justice and equity.

That gives me hope.

>> Marc Morial, president and C.E.O.

of the National Urban League, thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thanks, Ben.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, please visit our website at thechavischronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, X, formerly known as Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, diverse representation and perspectives, equity, and inclusion is critical to meeting the needs of our colleagues, customers, and communities.

We are focused on our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion both inside our company and in the communities where we live and work.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives and in our communities.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- through API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

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