♪ >> IN KATIE LANE AND.

TONIGHT I’M TALKING POLITICS, A LOOK AT THE PROCESS FOR A JUDICIAL SUPREME COURT JUSTICE WHO IS NEVER PRESSED ON HOW SHE WOULD HANDLE CASES INVOLVING HER FORMER PARTNER, THE GOVERNOR.

I WILL TALK TO THE HEAD OF THE STATE BAR ASSOCIATION ABOUT THE COUNCIL THAT APPROVED HER.

PLUS A NEW GET THE -- A LOOK AT THE NEW PODCAST WHAT IS OWED AND THE CENTURY LONG FIGHT FOR REPARATIONS IN MASSACHUSETTS AND BEYOND.

THE HOST ADJOINS ME AHEAD.

THE MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS CHANGED A LOT IN THE ERA OF DONALD TRUMP, EMBRACING THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND OTHER GOP CANDIDATES MUCH FURTHER TO THE RIGHT THAN THE LIKES OF GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER, BUT ONE CANDIDATE RUNNING FOR THE COMMITTEE IS BEYOND THE PALE, AND THE MASSACHUSETTS GOP FORMALLY CONDEMNED LORI KAUFMAN FOR HER REPREHENSIBLE RHETORIC WHICH INCLUDES HOMOPHOBIA AND CALLS FOR THE EXPULSION OF JEWISH PEOPLE.

OUR GUEST AT JOINS ME NOW TO DISCUSS.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

KATIE: I WENT TO TALK ABOUT THE UNUSUAL STEP YOUR PARTY IS TAKEN HERE BOTH A FEW MONTHS AGO IN DECEMBER URGING THIS CANDIDATE NOT TO RUN FOR STATE COMMITTEE, AND THEN URGING PEOPLE NOT TO VOTE FOR HER.

HE SAID THIS IS PART OF TRYING TO CREATE AN INCLUSIVE MEDICAL ENVIRONMENT WITHIN THE PARTY.

WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

>> AS SOON AS WE LEARNED ABOUT THIS CANDIDATE’S BACKGROUND ENTER RHETORIC, WHICH IS BEYOND THE PALE, THE PARTY IMMEDIATELY TOOK MEASURES TO CONDEMN HER REMARKS, AND FOR THE FIRST TIME I CAN REMEMBER ACTUALLY URGED HER TO WITHDRAW HER CANDIDACY, AND THAT RESOLUTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY.

FURTHER, I HAVE GONE FURTHER TO STATE THAT SHE DOES NOT WELCOME AT ANY PARTY EVENTS.

WE WANT TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO DISASSOCIATE OURSELVES FROM THIS INDIVIDUAL.

WE DID NOT CONSIDER HER A MEMBER OF OUR PARTY AND WE HOPE VOTERS WILL NOT VOTE HER INTO OFFICE.

KATIE: HOW DO YOU BUILD THAT KIND OF ENVIRONMENT THAT IS INCLUSIVE TO DIFFERENT FOLKS, BRING MORE REPUBLICANS INTO THE PARTY.

YOU TALKED ABOUT BEING BACK IN THE FIGHT BUT ALSO DRAW A LINE AGAINST EXTREMISM AND SOME THINGS THAT THERE IS NOT A PLACE FOR?

>> IT IS WHAT WE DID IN DECEMBER AND RENEWING THAT CALL AGAIN, LAST WEEK, WHEN MORE COMMENTS CAME TO LIGHT THAT WERE REPUGNANT AND BEYOND THE PALE FOR ANY CANDIDATE IN MASSACHUSETTS, AND IT IS ECHOING THAT MESSAGE THAT AT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IT IS A NEW DAY, WE DO WELCOME INDIVIDUALS OF ALL BACKGROUNDS, AND WE ARE ACTIVELY TAKING STEPS.

WE ARE WORKING WITH ONE OF OUR EXISTING COMMITTEE MEMBERS IN BOSTON WHO HAPPENS TO BE A BLACK WOMAN TO REACH OUT TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY IN BOSTON, SO WE WANT TO TAKE STEPS TO ENLARGE OUR REACH AND WELCOME ALL MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENTS INTO THE PARTY.

KATIE: YOU HAVE THE LEGACY, THE PARTY OF CHARLIE BAKER, MITT ROMNEY, AND OTHERS.

THERE IS THAT STRONG BASE OF SUPPORT FOR DONALD HERE AND NATIONALLY.

WHO IS A MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN IN 2024?

>> IT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

CERTAINLY DONALD TRUMP IS POPULAR WITH THE GRASSROOTS OF THE PARTY, AND LOOKING AHEAD TO TUESDAY I THINK HE WILL MAINTAIN STRONG SUPPORT GOING INTO THE PRIMARY ELECTION.

THAT BEING SAID WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT ELECTIONS IN THE STATE WHETHER IT BE STATEWIDE OR LOCAL OFFICE, REPUBLICANS NEED TO RUN UNDER A BANNER AND TALK ABOUT MESSAGES THAT RESONATE WITH THOSE VOTERS, AND OFTEN THAT IS A CANDIDATE WHO MAY HAVE A BROADER REACH AND TALK ABOUT DIFFERENT ISSUES THAN AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL.

ALL OF THOSE ARE WELCOME IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN MASSACHUSETTS.

KATIE: IT HAS BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED TO TENDS TO BE HARDER FOR REPUBLICANS RUNNING IN STATE-LEVEL OFFICES WHEN IT IS A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR.

I KNOW SINCE 2016 REPUBLICANS HAVE LOST SEATS IN THE LEGISLATURE EACH ELECTION.

WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING TO DO WITHIN THE STATE AFTER TUESDAY?

>> AFTER TUESDAY AND LEADING UP TO TUESDAY WE HAVE AN ONGOING EFFORT TO RECRUIT CANDIDATES WHO HAVE EITHER BEEN ELECTED TO MUNICIPAL OFFICE TO THINK ABOUT RUNNING FOR SOMETHING BIGGER, OR CANDIDATES WHO WERE WELL KNOWN IN THEIR COMMUNITIES TO THINK ABOUT RUNNING FOR OFFICE.

MASSACHUSETTS VOTERS HAVE SHOWN THEY CAN SPLIT THE TICKETS.

IT IS HARDER IN AN ELECTION YEAR, BUT WE KNOW IT CAN BE DONE.

YOU MENTIONED 2016, WE DID ACTUALLY GAIN ONE SEAT IN 2016, SO WE CAN BE DONE, AND LOOKING AHEAD WE KNOW OF OPPORTUNITIES, MANY IN PLYMOUTH COUNTY THAT WE ARE TARGETING WHERE WE HAVE A DEMOCRAT SERVING AN OFFICE ARE NO LONGER RUNNING FOR REELECTION, AND THAT TENDS TO BE THE TYPE OF OPPORTUNITY THAT FAVORS A REPUBLICAN.

KATIE: DOES LOOK LIKE THERE WILL BE SEVERAL INSTANCES WHERE INCUMBENT DEMOCRATS ARE NOT SEEKING REELECTION THIS YEAR, SO A LOT OF OPEN SEATS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ARE MISSING ABOUT THE ELECTRODYNAMICS OF MASSACHUSETTS IS SO MANY VOTERS ARE ON ENROLLED OR NOT MEMBERS OF A POLITICAL PARTY.

THE LATEST FIGURES HAVE AROUND 63%, 8% FOR REPUBLICANS AND 27% FOR DEMOCRATS.

HOW WE ARE THINKING ABOUT VOTERS WHO WERE NOT REGISTERED REPUBLICANS BUT MIGHT PULL A REPUBLICAN BALLOT IN THE PRIMARY TO MAKE A CHOICE WHETHER IT IS FOR DONALD TRUMP OR NIKKI HALEY.

ARE YOU DOING ANYTHING TO BRING THOSE VOTERS INTO THE FOLD?

>> WE ARE WELL AWARE OF THE NUMBER OF ON ENROLLED VOTERS IN MASSACHUSETTS OUTNUMBERS BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, SO THAT IS OUR TARGET AUDIENCE.

WE CAN COUNT ON REPUBLICANS TO VOTE FOR REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES, BUT WE WANT TO TARGET THOSE ON ENROLLED VOTERS WHO IN SOME ELECTIONS MAY VOTE REPUBLICAN AND SOME DEMOCRATIC, SO THOSE ARE OUR TARGET VOTERS, AND AS TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE MESSAGES THAT RESONATE WITH VOTERS LIKE AFFORDABILITY, MIGRANT CRISIS, WHICH IS AN EVER BALOONING BURDEN ON MASSACHUSETTS TAXPAYERS WITH NO END IN SIGHT, SO TALKING ABOUT THOSE ISSUES THAT APPEALED TO THOSE VOTERS IN THE MIDDLE AND ON ENROLLED VOTERS IN MASSACHUSETTS.

KATIE: IF WE HEAD TO ANOTHER TRUMP-BIDEN REMATCH HOW DO YOU GET THOSE POCKET BUSH -- POCKETBOOK ISSUES WHEN WE HAVE ANOTHER DIVISIVE NATIONAL ELECTION?

>> I HAVE SAID SINCE I WAS ELECTED CHAIR THAT I WILL FOCUS ON ISSUES OF CONCERN HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

THERE IS NOT A LOT WE CAN DO AT THE STATE PARTY LEVEL TO REALLY AFFECT THE NATIONAL DIALOGUE AND NATIONAL ISSUES OTHER THAN PERHAPS THE BORDER, SO THE BORDER WE ARE SEEING MORE AND MORE BECAUSE OF MASSACHUSETTS POLICY THAT REALLY ENCOURAGES MIGRANTS TO COME INTO OUR STATE.

AND I DO THINK THAT, AGAIN, IT IS A MESSAGE THAT RESIDENTS ARE WELL AWARE OF, SO IT IS SOMETHING WE WILL CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT.

AND TERMS OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION THAT WILL PLAY ITSELF ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL AND MY FOCUS WILL BE ON THE STATE LEVEL.

KATIE: WHAT IS THE MOOD HEADING INTO TUESDAY WITH THE TRUMP-HALEY PRIMARY AND 80 SEATS OF THE STATE COMMITTEE.

>> THERE WAS A LOT OF EXCITEMENT ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

WE HAVE NIKKI HALEY COMING IN, OR DONALD TRUMP THERE ARE RALLIES AND STANDOUTS HAPPENING OVER THE WEEKEND INTO TUESDAY, AND BOTH CAMPAIGNS, THE IS PLANNING A PARTY ON TUESDAY NIGHT, SO THERE WAS A LOT OF EXCITEMENT AND ACTIVITY GOING INTO TUESDAY TO COMPETE NOT ONLY FOR REPUBLICAN VOTES ABOUT THE 63% THAT WE MENTIONED, INDEPENDENT VOTERS AND GET THEM TO CAST A REPUBLICAN BALLOT, AND WE ARE HEARING FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE’S OFFICE THAT THE NUMBER OF ABSENTEE BALLOTS WERE LISTED ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE HAS EXCEEDED THOSE IN PAST ELECTIONS, SO MY GUESS IS WE WILL SEE INCREASED ACTIVITY AND INCREASED VOTES ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, WHICH IS A GREAT THING.

KATIE: THAT WILL BE INTERESTING TO WATCH FOR AS WE SEE HOW IT TURNS OUT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

A JUDGE WILL BE THE NEWEST JUSTICE ON THE MASSACHUSETTS SUPREME JUDICIAL COURT AFTER WINNING OVERWHELMING SUPPORT FROM THE GOVERNOR’S COUNSEL.

THE ELECTED BODY CHARGED WITH CONFIRMING JUDICIAL NOMINEES, BUT HER CONFIRMATION WAS NOT WITHOUT CONTROVERSY BECAUSE DURING HER HEARING THE COUNSEL FELT THE PRESSURE ON A KEY ETHICS QUESTION SHE WILL FACE ON THE BENCH, HOW TO HANDLE CASES INVOLVING HER FORMER LONGTIME PARTNER GOVERNOR HALEY.

JOINING ME NOW ARE TWO GUESTS.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

KIM, I WANT TO START WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU COVER THE HEARING AND THE VOTE, AND DURING THAT HEARING ONE OF THE COUNSELORS ARE REFERRED TO HER PAST ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP WITH THE GOVERNOR AS THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.

WAS THAT THE ATMOSPHERE?

HOW DID IT GO WHEN THIS QUESTION CAME UP?

>> SHE ENDED UP BEING THE LONE VOTE AND THE ONE EXPRESSING DISCOMFORT WITH THE SITUATION.

EVERYONE AGREED THAT JUSTICE WAS INCREDIBLY WELL QUALIFIED FOR THE ROLE.

I THINK THERE WAS A DESIRE FOR MORE DISCUSSION ON THE OUTSIDE RATHER THAN THE INSIDE ON THE CONTEXT OF IT, AND I COVERED THE FIRST NOMINATION MADE BY GOVERNOR SHEALY AND I COVERED THE SECOND ONE, AND IT WAS A TALE OF TWO NOMINATION HEARINGS.

THE GOVERNOR’S COUNSEL PRESSED SOMEONE ABOUT A LACK OF JUDICIAL EXPERIENCE.

SHE HAD NOT BEEN A JUDGE BEFORE.

MARGARET MARSHALL, THE FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE, DID NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE AS A JUDGE EITHER, BUT THEY VERY MUCH PRESSED HER ABOUT THAT, AND WHEN IT CAME TO THIS NOMINEE THEY LARGELY SHIED AWAY FROM IT, SO THIS WAS A GOVERNOR’S COUNSEL THAT DID NOT WANT TO ENGAGE AS ONE COUNSELOR AT OF SEVEN SAID THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.

KATIE: WHAT DO YOU THINK?

SHOULD THERE BE PART OF THE DISCUSSION, IS THERE A LEGITIMATE QUESTION AROUND A HIGH COURT JUDGE, AND HOW SHE WOULD HANDLE HAVING A PAST ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP WITH THE GOVERNOR?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.

MY FEELING ON THIS PERSONALLY IS THAT IT MIGHT BE.

IT IS FAIR GAME TO PUT THAT ISSUE OUT THERE.

ANY OF THE COUNSELORS COULD HAVE DONE THAT.

COUNSELOR JACOBS DID SPEAK ABOUT THIS AND ABOUT THE ISSUE OF POTENTIAL RECUSAL, DID NOT COME AT IT WITH A QUESTION.

THE JUSTICE DID ANSWER THE QUESTION NOT ASKED FOR THE MOST PART, AND THAT IS SHE HAS HAD A LONG HISTORY OF BEING AN APPELLATE COURT JUDGE.

AT THIS POINT IN THE ASSESSMENT PROCESS WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE WITH NO EXPERIENCE AS A JUDGE.

WE ARE LOOKING AT A PERSON WHO IS THE MOST QUALIFIED IN THE STATE, AND IT IS NOT UNKNOWN, IT IS VERY WELL KNOWN.

WE KNOW THE NUMBER OF CASES THAT HAVE BEEN HERE BEFORE, 2700, THE NUMBER OF OPINIONS, 900.

THE NUMBER SHE HAS BEEN OVERTURNED ON IS REMARKABLY LOW, TWO OR THREE IS WHAT SHE TESTIFIED TO.

THE JUSTICE WILL BE ABLE TO RECUSE HERSELF ON HER OWN REGARD, BUT THERE IS ALSO ANOTHER PROCESS.

A MOTION CAN BE SUBMITTED, THE JUDGE WOULD RULE ON THAT, BUT THERE IS A SECONDARY STEP, BUT THE REST OF THE JUSTICES COULD FURTHER REVIEW THAT RECUSAL MOTION IF IT WAS DENIED, SO THERE IS A HISTORY BEYOND THE PROCEDURE IN PLACE REGARDING RECUSAL, AND THAT IS HER OWN BEHAVIOR, HER OWN RECUSAL OF HERSELF WHEN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WAS PROSECUTING.

THERE IS A HISTORY OF HER RECUSING HERSELF.

THAT IS IT ASSESSMENT IT NEEDS TO BE MADE BY THE JUSTICE, BECAUSE SHE IS THE ONE MORE THAN ANYONE ON THE PLANET WHO KNOWS WHETHER SHE CAN BE UNBIASED AND FAIR IN EXERCISING HER JUDGMENT IN THE CASE.

KATIE: AND THAT IS WHAT SHE SAID THAT SHE HAD HANDLED CASES AS THEY COME UP ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS.

I WANT TO ROLL THE CLIP OF ONE OF THE GOVERNOR COUNSELORS TALKING ABOUT HOW HE SEES THE ROLE OF THE COUNCIL AND WHAT THEIR JOB IS IN A CONFIRMATION.

>> OUR ROLE IS A VERY NARROW ONE.

IT IS TO DETERMINE IF THE PERSON WHO IS SITTING THERE IS QUALIFIED FOR THE POSITION.

THERE IS NO QUESTION AND NO QUESTION IN MY MIND THIS NOMINEE IS QUALIFIED FOR THAT JOB PE RIOD.

I HAVE NEVER ASKED TO NOMINEE ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR PERSONAL LIFE, AND I NEVER WILL.

KATIE: WHAT DO YOU THINK THERE?

ARE THERE SITUATIONS WHERE THE COUNCIL SHOULD BE LOOKING AT A POTENTIAL JUDGE, NOT JUST WHAT IS ON THEIR RESUME, BUT WHAT HAPPENS OUTSIDE THE COURTROOM?

>> SURE, POTENTIALLY.

THE JUDGE’S ABILITY TO CARRY HERSELF AND ACT REASONABLY AND TEMPERAMENT IN GENERAL AS WELL AS DISTRACTIONS FROM PERSONAL LIFE -- THOSE ARE THINGS THAT MIGHT BE RAISED.

IT IS FAIR GAME TO RAISE THEM IF THE COUNSELOR FEELS THAT IS THE APPROPRIATE STEP TO TAKE.

THE COUNSELORS ARE ELECTED OFFICIALS.

THERE ARE EIGHT OF THEM ACROSS THE STATE, SO THERE IS A DEMOCRATIC PROCESS TO ENSURE EACH OF THOSE COUNSELORS IS THE RIGHT FIT FOR THAT PARTICULAR DISTRICT, AND THE COUNSELOR HAS TO EXERCISE THEIR BEST JUDGMENT.

WHAT QUESTION SHOULD I BE ACTIVE -- ASKING.

OTHER COUNSELORS MIGHT HAVE DIFFERENT THOUGHTS ON IT.

ALL OF THAT IS FAIR GAME.

WHAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS NOMINATION IN REGARD TO HER PERSONAL LIFE IS THAT IT WAS REALLY OUT THERE, BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH REACTION IN THE COMMUNITY.

AS SOON AS THIS NEWS WAS OUT THERE THERE WAS A LOT OF REACTION FROM DIFFERENT OUTLETS, SO THE ISSUE HAD SORT OF BEEN THOUGHT ABOUT DO A FAIR EXTENT BY ALL OF THOSE INTERESTED INCLUDING THE MEDIA, SO I THINK IT IS FAIR GENERALLY TO CONSIDER ISSUES LIKE THAT, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY ISN’T THE GOVERNOR’S JOB AND COUNSEL’S JOB TO FIND THE CANDIDATE THAT IS MOST QUALIFIED TO DO THE BEST FOR THE STATE AND CONSIDER ALL OF THESE OTHER ANCILLARY FACTORS AS WELL BUT TO WEIGHT THEM ACCORDINGLY.

KATIE: ALL COUNSELOR SEATS WILL BE ON THE BALLOT AND THERE ARE SEVEN MEMBERS SERVING ONE VACANCY, AND WHEN WE IN THE MEDIA TALK ABOUT THE GOVERNOR’S COUNSEL WE OFTEN TIMES CALL IT AN OBSCURE STATE PANEL.

WHY IS THIS SUCH AN OBSCURE BODY GIVEN THAT WE VOTE ON THEM EVERY TWO YEARS AND AMY READY MUCH WEEKLY?

>> AND THEY MAKE $36,000 PER YEAR ON TOP OF THAT.

IT IS AN ARCHAIC HOLDOVER FROM COLONIAL MASSACHUSETTS TIMES, AND IF YOU LOOK BACK OVER THE LAST 100 YEARS, THE GOVERNOR’S COUNSEL HAS HAD QUITE A BAD REPUTATION.

BACK IN THE 1960’S THERE WERE ACCUSATIONS OF THEM BASICALLY SELLING THEIR DUTIES.

I BELIEVE FOUR OUT OF THE EIGHT WERE ACTUALLY CHARGE.

GOVERNOR DUKAKIS CAME IN WITH THE REFORMER IMPULSE AND SET UP THE CURRENT SYSTEM WE HAVE GENERALLY SPEAKING OF THE JUDICIAL NOMINATING COMMISSION.

BASICALLY HAVING A SEPARATE SET OF ADVISORS WHO VET THESE NOMINEES WHO PUT THEM FORWARD TO THE GOVERNOR, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, AND THAT NOMINEE GOES TO THE GOVERNOR’S COUNSEL.

IF YOU WANT TO GO BACK A DECADE, ONE OF THE CURRENT COUNCILMEMBERS WAS CHARGED OR ACCUSED OF THROWING A CURLING IRON AT SOMEONE, AND SHE SUBPOENAED A REPORTER AS AN ACT OF INTIMIDATION AS IT PLAYED OUT IN COURT, SO IF YOU LOOK AT THE BROAD SCOPE HISTORICALLY BOTH IN THE LAST 100 YEARS AND EVEN IN MORE RECENT TIMES, THE COUNSELORS HAD QUITE A TERRIBLE REPUTATION.

KATIE: SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT AS WE COME UP ELECTION SEASON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

THE CITY OF AUSTIN IS WEIGHING THE NOTION OF PAYING REPARATIONS TO BLACK RESIDENTS TO ATONE FOR SLAVERY AND CENTURIES OF ECONOMIC EXCLUSION, BUT WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

THAT IS THE QUESTION AT THE HEART OF THE PODCAST WHAT IS OWED?

THE HOST LOOKS TO THE PAST FOR ANSWERS INTO THE TRAIL BLAZERS OF THE FIGHT FOR REPARATIONS.

SHE JOINS ME NOW.

SO GOOD TO TALK TO YOU.

I HAVE REALLY ENJOYED LISTENING TO YOUR PODCAST IN PART BECAUSE IT IS SO BROAD.

YOU HAVE GOT LOCAL HISTORY, THE MOST RECENT EPISODE TRAVELS TO GHANA.

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO ZOOM OUT BEYOND THE DISCUSSION OF REPARATIONS HERE IN BOSTON?

>> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK AMERICA IS AT A TIME WHERE IT IS REALLY POLARIZED, TENSE, DIVIDED, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO CHARACTERIZE IT, BUT IT IS IN THESE MOMENTS OF TENSION WHERE WE EXAMINE OURSELVES INDIVIDUALLY AND AS A NATION TO THINK ABOUT WHO WE WANT TO BE, WHAT KIND OF COUNTRY WE WANT TO BE, AND IN THAT PROCESS OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS WE HAVE SEEN SOCIAL JUSTICE ISSUES AND THE THOUGHT OF EQUITY RISE TO MAINSTREAM.

THIS ISSUE IS ONE OF THE THINGS I’M THINKING ABOUT, THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, NEW YORK PUTTING TOGETHER ITS COMMISSION IN ADDITION TO CITIES LIKE ASHEVILLE AND ST. LOUIS AND ALL THE OTHER LOCALITIES EXPLORING THE ISSUE.

YOU KIND OF HAVE TO GO BEYOND BOSTON.

KATIE: WHERE IS THE DISCUSSION IN BOSTON AT THIS POINT?

>> THIS IS A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE.

TO START WITH THE FACTS OF IT, WE HAVE A REPARATIONS PANEL.

IT HAS BEEN ASSEMBLED FOR ABOUT ONE YEAR NOW, AND THE CITY DID RECENTLY TAP THE EXTERNAL HISTORIANS WHO WILL SORT OF CREATE THE ACCOUNT OF HISTORY THAT WILL INFORM WHATEVER RECOMMENDATIONS THE PANEL ULTIMATELY MAKES.

THOSE ARE FACTS.

NOW DEPENDING ON HOW FAST YOU WANTED TO SEE THIS PROCESS MOVE FOR THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU WANTED TO SEE IT MOVE, YOU MIGHT HAVE SOME CRITICISMS ABOUT THE WAY BOSTON IS PURSUING.

ONE THING WE DID NOT SEND THE PODCAST THAT IS TRUE IF YOU LOOK AT EVANSTON, ILLINOIS OR AMHERST , BOTH OF THOSE MUNICIPALITIES HAVE COMPLETED THEIR PROCESSES, AND THEY STARTED WITH FUNDING.

THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT WAS LIKE, WE ARE GOING TO SET ASIDE SOME MONEY.

WE WILL FIGURE OUT THE PARTICULARS OF DISTRIBUTION LATER.

IN BOSTON WE DID NOT DO THAT, AND IF YOU LISTEN TO THE PODCAST YOU WILL YOURS AND POINTED TO SYSTEMS ABOUT THE WAY BOSTON HAS PURSUED THE PROCESS.

KATIE: SO THERE ARE PLENTY OF THORNY ISSUES.

>> OPINIONS.

KATIE: ALWAYS OPINIONS IN BOSTON, NO SHORTAGE OF THAT.

ONE THING I FOUND INTERESTING WAS YOU DID A GOOD JOB MAKING A CASE THIS IS NOT A NEW DISCUSSION.

IT MIGHT HAVE NEW PROMINENCE, NEW DYNAMICS, BUT YOU LOOKED HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO TO THE FIGHT FOR REPARATIONS, LOOKING AT THE STORY OF BELINDA SUTTON WHO PETITIONED FOR A PENSION FROM HER IN SLAVER’S ESTATE.

WE HAVE KEIRA SINGLETON TALKING ABOUT WHAT THAT STRUGGLE SHOWS.

>> WHAT I THINK IS SO WENT ORTON TO ME ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE BELINDA SUTTON IS THAT IT ALSO SHOWS US THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THEIR OWN POLITICAL AGENTS.

THEY HAVE ALWAYS HAD RADICAL POLITICS, AND THEY HAVE ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD THAT THE FREEDOM THAT CAN BE EXTENDED TO THEM DOES NOT REALLY MATTER IF IT DOES NOT EXTEND TO ALL BLACK PEOPLE.

KATIE: YOU LOOK THAT FAR BACK, LOOK AT MORE RECENT HISTORY IN THE 1980’S.

WHAT KIND OF PATH HAS ALREADY BEEN TREADED MASSACHUSETTS?

>> WHEN WE WERE TALKING EARLIER AS COLLEAGUES, I WAS SAYING TO YOU THAT I AM HESITANT TO SAY A LOT ABOUT WHAT WAS SURPRISING OR INTERESTING ABOUT DOING THIS WORK, BUT I THOUGHT ABOUT IT, AND THIS MIGHT BE THE MOST FASCINATING PART OF THE PODCAST I THINK.

DON’T HOLD ME TO THAT UNTIL WE ARE DONE WITH PRODUCTION.

KATIE: THERE ARE LOTS OF FASCINATING PARTS.

>> LOOKING AT THIS POINT WHEN WE SAY MASSACHUSETTS IS CRITICAL TO HOW THE REST OF THE NATION OF THE NATION FUNCTIONS LATER ON IN ART HISTORY, IT IS SO TRUE THE CASE OF BELINDA SUTTON.

IT IS EARLY EVIDENCE THAT BLACK PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THAT THEIR ENSLAVEMENT WAS WRONG, THAT THEIR ENSLAVEMENT WAS COUNTER IN ALWAYS TO THE IDEA OF THE NEWLY FORMING NATION AND WERE VERY CLEAR RIGHT ABOUT WHY THEY DESERVED COMPENSATION AND WHY THEY SHOULD NOT BE ENSLAVED, AND THE SAME IS TRUE OF LOOKING INTO BILL OWENS IN THE 1980’S.

WE PLAY SOME TAPE THAT DID NOT AIR WHEN HE WAS INTERVIEWED AT GBH FOR BASIC BLACK IN 2000 OR 2000 ONE.

LISTENING TO THE TAPE YOU CAN HEAR HE IS VERY CLEAR ABOUT THE CASE AND HAS PERSPECTIVE, AND I THINK -- KATIE: WE CAN PLAY FROM BILL OWENS HIMSELF.

>> MY PARENTS DID NOT HAVE SLAVES.

THEY WERE ENSLAVED.

AND, IN FACT, I WAS DENIED BY INHERITANCE OF THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT EVEN PAID FOR THE WORK THAT THEY DID.

AND THAT IS WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT I RECEIVE MY INHERITANCE MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

>> VERY CLEAR, SUPER RESOLUTE.

KATIE: ABSOLUTELY, SO THAT HAS BEEN PART OF THE DISCRETION OF THE LOCAL HISTORY, AND WHERE DO YOU GO FROM HERE?

WOULD ELSE ARE WE GOING TO HEAR THE PODCAST L?

>> NEXT THURSDAY, THE PODCAST TRAVELS TO AUSTRIA TO EXPLORE WHAT IT TOOK FOR THAT NATIONAL GOVERNMENT TO MOVE ITS NARRATIVE ABOUT BEING A VICTIM OF NATIONAL SOCIALISM INTO OWNING ITS OWN COMPLICITY IN THE REPARATIONS THAT COME OUT OF THAT DISCUSSION.

KATIE: THAT IS ONE OF THE QUESTIONS I THINK YOU WOULD BEEN LOOKING AT OR POSE EARLY ON IS OUR GOVERNMENTS READY TO FACE THEIR CULPABILITY.

>> THE SHORT ANSWER IS SOME ARE AND SOME ARE NOT.

I THINK FOR EPISODE FOUR IT IS REALLY INTERESTING TALKING TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE NATIONAL FUND ABOUT WHAT IT TAKES AND ALSO TALKING TO AN ECONOMIST WAS WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THIS ISSUE AND HAS A PROPOSAL FOR HELP FEDERAL REPARATIONS WOULD WORK, AND WE TALK TO HIM ABOUT WHAT HE THINKS IT WOULD TAKE TO MOVE THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT ON THIS ISSUE.

KATIE: LOTS STILL LEFT TO EXPLORE.

I CANNOT WAIT TO HEAR NEXT THURSDAY’S EPISODE AND KEEP FOLLOWING THE SERIES.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR GIVING US A LITTLE TASTE.

THE FIRST THREE EPISODES OF WHAT IS OWED ARE OUT NOW.

FIND OUT WHERE YOU GET YOUR PODCAST OR SCAN THE QR CODE ON YOUR SCREEN.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT DO COME BACK NEXT WEEK, AND LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

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