♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WHEN RUSSIAN TROOPS ADVANCE AND ITS GUNS FIRE, UKRAINE DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH AMMUNITION TO FIRE BACK.

>> TIME IS RUNNING OUT IN UKRAINE.

DEFENSE EXPERT DARA MASSICOT SAYS KYIV NEEDS MORE FROM AMERICA NOW IF IT STANDS ANY CHANCE OF BEATING BACK RUSSIA.

>>> AND -- INTO THE ARCHIVES.

A LOOK AT MOSCOW'S MILITARY CRISIS IN THE LATE 1990s.

AND HOW IT MANAGED TO BUILD BACK.

>>> THEN -- >> COVERING WAR IS A VERY INTENSE EXPERIENCE.

AND DEALING WITH A DISEASE LIKE THIS IS QUITE INTENSE.

>> VETERAN WAR CORRESPONDENT ROD NORDLAND ON HOW A TERMINAL CANCER DIAGNOSIS CHANGED HIS LIFE FOR THE BETTER.

>>> PLUS -- >> THERE IS A KIND OF DERANGEMENT SYNDROME ON THE RIGHT, WHICH HAS SPILLED OVER TO SOME IN THE CENTER.

>> THE GEORGIA PRIMARY PUTS BIDEN AND TRUMP ON THE ROAD TO A REMATCH.

BILL KRISTOL SAYS THAT GOP VOTERS NEED TO GET REAL ABOUT WHAT'S ON THE LINE IN NOVEMBER.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

EUROPEAN PARTNERS ARE TRYING TO GET ON THE SAME PAGE ABOUT HOW FAR THEY'LL GO TO HELP UKRAINE AND MAKE UP FOR THE DIRE U.S.

SHORTFALL.

GERMMAN CHANCELLOR SCHOLZ WILL HOST FRENCH PRESIDENT MACRON TO HAMMER OUT THEIR DIFFERENCES.

THE KREMLIN IS VASTLY OUTPRODUCING THE WEST ON AMMUNITION AND WEAPONS.

AND MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT SAYS IT'S A BAD SIGN FOR UKRAINE THAT MOSCOW IS CONFIDENT ENOUGH TO ACCELERATE ITS ATTACKS AHEAD OF THE RUSSIAN ELECTION THIS WEEKEND.

FORECASTING MORE BATTLEFIELD WINS.

DARA MASSICOT IS A SENIOR FELLOW AT CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE, AND SHE'S JOINING THE SHOW LIVE FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

DARA MASSICOT, YOU HAVE WRITTEN A BIG ARTICLE IN "FOREIGN AFFAIRS" IN WHICH YOU HAVE BASICALLY SAID, TIME IS RUNNING OUT IN UKRAINE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

YES, WE ARE LOOKING AT A SITUATION WHERE UKRAINE IS FACING MULTIPLE CHALLENGES RIGHT NOW IN AMMUNITION AND MANPOWER SHORTAGES.

>> WHAT EXACTLY NEEDS TO HAPPEN RIGHT NOW SO THAT THEY CAN -- YOU KNOW, ALL THROUGHOUT -- YOU KNOW, '22 AND MOST OF '23, THEY WERE PUSHING RUSSIA BACK, AND THEN, IT STALLED.

AND NOW THEY ARE BEING PUSHED BACK.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

UKRAINE FACES THREE MAIN CHALLENGES RIGHT NOW.

ONE IS AMMUNITION.

RUSSIA HAS A FIRER'S ADVANTAGE AGAINST THEM, WHICH MEANS THEY ARE FIRING MORE ARTILLERY SHELLS AT THEM AT A RATE OF 5 TO 1.

AND UKRAINE IS NOT REPLACING ITS CASUALTIES AT A ONE FOR ONE LEVEL.

SO, MANY OF THE FRONT LINE UNITS ARE BEING HOLLOWED OUT IN PLACE OVER TIME.

SOME OF THEM ARE MISSING 30% OF THE SOLDIERS THAT THEY NEED TO DO THEIR MISSION COMPLETELY.

AND THE THIRD ISSUE IS, THEY DO NOT HAVE A SUFFICIENT NETWORK OF FORTIFICATIONS OR TRENCHES TO DEFEND THEMSELVES IF THE RUSSIANS CONTINUE TO ADVANCE.

NOW, I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE MAKING PROGRESS ON THAT THIRD ISSUE, THEY'RE TRYING TO ENTRENCH VERY QUICKLY, BUT THE OTHER TWO ISSUES, MANPOWER AND AMMUNITION, ARE UNFORTUNATELY LINKED AND ARE UNFORTUNATELY TRENDING NEGATIVELY RIGHT NOW.

>> SO, WE HEAR ALSO THAT AS ALL THE OTHERS WERE SLOW TO COME, EVERYTHING THAT WAS PROMISED WAS SLOW, CERTAINLY THE F-16s HAVE NOT YET BEEN DELIVERED, AND WE EVEN HEAR REPORTS THAT IT'S TAKEN LONGER THAN NATO THOUGHT TO TRAIN UP THE UKRAINIANS AND TO ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, GET THEM TO -- TO WORK ON NATO ISSUED EQUIPMENT.

HOW IMPORTANT WOULD THE PLANES BE RIGHT NOW?

BECAUSE RUSSIA SEEMS TO HAVE INCREASED ITS AIR ACTIVITY AND GLIDE BOMBS WE'RE HEARING A LOT ABOUT.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

I WOULD SAY, PROBABLY OVER THE LAST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, WE'VE REALLY SEEN THE RUSSIAN AIR FORCE BECOME MUCH MORE ACTIVE ON THE FRONT LINE.

THEY ARE ABLE TO FIRE THESE GLIDE BOMBS ON UKRAINIAN POSITIONS AND ON UKRAINIAN STRONGHOLDS FROM MAYBE 30 KILOMETERS OR EVEN UPWARDS OF 60 TO 80 KILOMETERS BEHIND THE FRONT LINES, WHICH MEANS THAT UKRAINIAN AIR DEFENSE REALLY STRUGGLES TO TARGET THEM AND BRING THEM DOWN.

F-16s WOULD HELP THAT.

THE CHALLENGE IS, THE NUMBERS THAT WILL BE FLOWING INTO UKRAINE ARE SMALL IN THE BEGINNING, AND RUSSIA WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY BE LOOKING TO DAMAGE THEIR BASES, BECAUSE IT CAN BE PRETTY OBVIOUS WHERE THOSE ARE BASED, AND THEY'LL PROBABLY TRY TO TARGET THEM WITH MISSILES, I WOULD THINK, EARLY ON.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK, I MEAN, YOU'VE SAID, YOU KNOW, AMMUNITION IS MANPOWER IS A HUGE PROBLEM RIGHT NOW, AND THAT'S CLEARLY WHAT THEY NEED MOST.

BUT YOU'VE ALSO SAID THAT THIS COULD BE A TIPPING POINT, AS SOON AS THE SUMMER.

EXPLAIN.

>> YEAH, SO, SINCE I WROTE THAT, THERE HAVE BEEN TWO PIECES OF GOOD NEWS, SO, I PROBABLY -- NOW I WOULD WANT TO ALTER THAT TO -- THE SUMMER WAS THE TIPPING POINT BEFORE WE -- THE UNITED STATES ANNOUNCED JUST YESTERDAY THAT THEY WOULD BE PROVIDING AN EMERGENCY $300 MILLION IN MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE.

THAT WILL PROBABLY STRETCH THEM FOR A FEW MONTHS.

I UNDERSTAND THAT IT HAS ARTILLERY SHELLS, ANTI-TANK WEAPONS AND AIR DEFENSE INTERCEPTOR MISSILES, SO, THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT STOP GAP, BUT IT'S NOT A PERMANENT SOLUTION.

AND THE SECOND PIECE OF GOOD NEWS SINCE I WROTE THAT ARTICLE WAS THAT THE CZECH REPUBLIC HAS COME THROUGH AND THEY ARE BROKERING A DEAL FOR 800,000 SHELLS TO UKRAINE FROM THIRD PARTY SELLERS WHO PREFER TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS.

IF THAT COMES THROUGH, BASED ON THE RATE OF FIRE THAT THE UKRAINIANS ARE, THAT'S PROBABLY SEVERAL MONTHS WORTH OF EQUIPMENT.

SO, THINGS ARE NOT TRENDING POSITIVELY, BECAUSE THERE IS NO LONG-TERM SECURITY ASSISTANCE THAT'S MADE IT THROUGH THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES RIGHT NOW, BUT THESE TWO EMERGENCY MEASURES, I THINK, PROBABLY WILL COME AT A CRITICAL TIME THIS SPRING AND PROBABLY THROUGH THE SUMMER NOW.

>> SO, THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, WHAT YOU SAY, BECAUSE THIS IS A STOP-GAP MEASURE, AND I WONDER WHETHER -- I MEAN, WHETHER YOU ARE SHOCKED THAT EVEN UNDER THE SANCTIONS AND ALL THE REST OF IT, THE RUSSIANS, ACCORDING TO CNN REPORTING, HAVE BEEN ABLE TO OUTPRODUCE, OBVIOUSLY SHIFT THEIR ENTIRE ECONOMY TO DEFENSE PRODUCTION, AND THEY ARE ABLE TO FIRE, WE'RE TOLD, SOME 10,000 SHES A DAY, WHILE THE UKRAINIANS, ONLY 2,000.

THAT'S A VERY BIG DIFFERENTIAL.

EVEN WITH THIS SUPPLEMENTAL, YOU KNOW, THIS EMERGENCY, DO YOU THINK THEY'LL HAVE ENOUGH TO COUNTER WHAT THE RUSSIANS HAVE?

>> WELL, IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE RATE OF FIRE THAT THEY CHOOSE.

FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN UKRAINE WAS ON THE OFFENSIVE LAST YEAR, THEY WERE ACTUALLY FIRING AS MANY ARTILLERY SHELLS AS THE RUSSIANS ARE RIGHT NOW, BUT THAT'S NOT A SUSTAINABLE AMOUNT ON THESE EMERGENCY STOP-GAP MEASURES.

AND THAT'S WHY THE $61 BILLION IS SO IMPORTANT, BECAUSE THAT'S A LONG-TERM SUPPORT PACKAGE THAT ALLOWS UKRAINE TO PLAN AND EXECUTE A MILITARY OPERATION AND TRY TO PUSH RUSSIAN FORCES BACK.

RIGHT NOW, WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH THIS $300 MILLION, IT SOUNDS LIKE A LOT, BUT REALLY, THIS IS ONLY ENOUGH TO GET THEM THROUGH A FEW MONTHS.

>> DARA MASSICOT, I WANT TO DRILL DOWN ON THE RUSSIAN MILITARY, BECAUSE I THINK THE WESTERN WORLD HAS THOUGHT THAT THE SANCTIONS, THAT THE, YOU KNOW, THE DEFEATS THAT THEY FACED EARLY ON IN THE WAR, WAS A TREND, BUT IN FACT, THAT TREND HAS REVERSED ITSELF.

I WANT TO READ SOMETHING THAT YOU SAID, AND THEN I WANT TO SHOW YOU SOME REPORTING I'VE DONE ABOUT 30 YEARS AGO, ABOUT THE REAL DIRE STRAITS OF THE RUSSIAN MILITARY COMPARED TO TODAY.

SO, YOU BASICALLY SAY, "ARE WE TO BELIEVE THIS IS A RUSSIAN MILITARY IN DECLINE, RELIANT ON SOVIET-ERA EQUIPMENT, CONSCRIPTED CONVICTS, TROOPS WHO ABUSE DRUGS, ET CETERA, FOREIGN SUPPLIED DRONES, OR IS IT INCREASINGLY ADAPTIVE AND WELL RESOURCED, ABLE TO OVERPOWER UKRAINIAN POSITIONS ALL ALONG THE FRONT LINES?"

SO, WE'LL DISCUSS THAT ONCE WE SEE HOW FAR THE RUSSIAN MILITARY HAS COME FROM WHERE IT WAS RIGHT AFTER THE FALL OF THE SOVIET UNION, AROUND THE FIRST CHECHEN WAR.

♪♪ THIS IS THE WAY WE ALL REMEMBER THE RUSSIAN ARMY.

PROUD, HIGHLY TRAINED, AND FEARED AROUND THE WORLD.

BUT IN RUSSIA TODAY, THEY'RE DOING MORE MOONLIGHTING THAN MARCHING.

EVEN TOP OFFICERS ARE STRUGGLING TO SURVIVE.

MAXIM HAS SERVED IN ARMY ARTILLERY UNITS FOR 11 YEARS.

HE'S A CAPTAIN, SUPPOSEDLY PART OF THE MILITARY ELITE.

THESE DAYS, THOUGH, HE'S FORCED TO TAKE A SECOND JOB.

AT NIGHT, HE LOADS BOXES OF FOOD AT THE ST. PETERSBURG TRAIN STATION.

HIS MILITARY PAY -- $150 A MONTH -- IS THREE MONTHS LATE.

MAXIM LIVES WITH HIS WIFE TANIA AND TWO CHILDREN IN A MILITARY DORMITORY, CRAMMED INTO A COUPLE OF SMALL ROOMS.

THE REST OF THE APARTMENT, THE CAPTAIN AND HIS WIFE SHARE WITH TWO OTHER FAMILIES, 11 PEOPLE IN ALL.

THERE'S ONLY ONE MINUSCULE BATHROOM, BUT THERE'S NO REAL BATH, NO SHOWER OR HOT WATER, AND NO REAL FUTURE.

AT LEAST NOT IN THE RUSSIAN ARMY.

SOME OFFICERS ARE SO BROKE, THEY SELL THEIR BLOOD TO BUY BREAD.

MAXIM DIDN'T SELL HIS BLOOD, BUT HE DID SELL HIS ARMY ISSUE WINTER COAT AND BOOTS FOR $50.

SOME EXPERTS SAY THE SITUATION IS SO BAD THAT MOST OF THE MILITARY UNITS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY ARE SIMPLY NOT FIT FOR SERIOUS COMBAT.

THEY ALSO SAY THAT HERE IN MOSCOW, THE TOP COMMANDERS DON'T KNOW WHICH UNITS THEY COULD RELY ON IF THEY HAD TO GO TO WAR.

RUSSIA'S DEFENSE MINISTER HIMSELF ADMITS THERE'S A SERIOUS MILITARY CRISIS.

A NEAR CATASTROPHE, HE CALLED IT.

SO, WE ASKED THE MINISTRY TO LET US VISIT A TYPICAL ARMY UNIT.

BUT THEIR IDEA OF TYPICAL WAS THIS DIVISION, BASED JUST OUTSIDE MOSCOW.

AND THE RECRUITS THAT YOU HAVE HERE, ARE THEY THE BEST AND THE BRIGHTEST?

ARE YOU PLEASED WITH -- WELL.

THEY'RE HITTING THEIR TARGETS, ANYWAY.

YET EVEN THIS SHOWCASE UNIT ADMITS TO PROBLEMS.

THE MEN ARE BEHIND IN THEIR PAY.

HUNDREDS OF OFFICERS LACK PROPER HOUSING.

AND THEY CAN'T REPLACE OLD EQUIPMENT.

THE REGIMENT'S DEPUTY COMMANDER TOLD US HE LOST SEVEN OF HIS FELLOW OFFICERS IN THE '94 CHECHEN WAR.

WHAT WENT WRONG?

WHY WAS THE RUSSIAN MILITARY SO BADLY BEATEN, TREATED SO UNPREPARED?

>> Translator: THAT'S A PROVOCATIVE QUESTION.

IN PRINCIPLE, OUR ARMY IS READY, BUT IT JUST HAPPENED THAT THEY SENT IN TRAINED SOLDIERS TO CHECHNYA.

SO, YOU CAN'T SAY THAT OUR ARMY ISN'T PREPARED.

>> BUT THE PROBLEM IN CHECHNYA WASN'T JUST A LACK OF TRAINING.

THE TROOPS WERE ALSO WOEFULLY UNDER EQUIPPED.

SENT TO WAR IN THE DEAD OF WAITER, THEY WERE FORCED TO FORAGE FOR EVERYTHING, FROM FOOD TO STRAW TO SLEEP ON.

THEY LACKED PROPER SHELTER, CLOTHING, AND COMMUNICATIONS GEAR.

MANY RUSSIAN SOLDIERS ACTUALLY SOLD THEIR WEAPONS TO THE ENEMY, THE CHECHEN REBELS.

AND THE RUSSIAN ARMY TODAY IS STILL DESPERATELY SHORT OF VITAL SPARE PARTS.

WE WERE TOLD, FOR INSTANCE, THAT UP TO 50% OF RUSSIAN TANKS DON'T EVEN HAVE BATTERIES.

THE SOLDIERS HAVE TO MOVE BATTERIES FROM ONE TANK TO THE NEXT, JUST TO GET THEM STARTED.

YOU FIND THE SAME PROBLEMS IN THE OTHER SERVICES.

IN THE NAVY, HOUSING IS IN SUCH SHORT SUPPLY THAT IN SOME PORTS, LIKE HERE, THE SAILORS AND THEIR FAMILIES ARE LIVING ONBOARD THEIR SHIPS.

BUT THAT'S OKAY, BECAUSE MOST SHIPS VERY RARELY GO TO SEA ANYMORE.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE FUEL OR THE SPARE PARTS.

AND THE NAVY IS ALSO SO DEEPLY IN DEBT TO ALL ITS SUPPLIERS THAT POWER COMPANIES HAVE BEEN CUTTING OFF ELECTRICITY, EVEN TO SOME OF ITS NUCLEAR SUBMARINE BASES.

ACCORDING TO THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF THE PARLIAMENT'S DEFENSE COMMITTEE, WITHOUT ELECTRICAL HEAT TO STOP THE REACTORS FREEZING IN WINTER, THE SUBMARINES COULD BECOME FLOATING CHERNOBYLS.

AND IF IT DOES FREEZE, WHAT IS THE WORST THAT COULD HAPPEN?

>> WELL, THE TUBES, WHICH CONTAIN THE RADIOACTIVE LIQUID IN THE REACTOR MAY BURST OPEN, AND THEN YOU HAVE ENORMOUS POLLUTION BY RADIOACTIVE WASTE.

>> IS THAT A REAL RISK TODAY?

>> IT IS A RISK.

YOU MAY FACE A REAL NUCLEAR ACCIDENT.

>> AS FOR THE AIR FORCE, IT IS ALSO BROKE.

THIS COLONEL IS A 30-YEAR VETERAN.

HE WAS ONCE A PROUD FIGHTER PILOT, BUT NOW, HE HAS TO MOONLIGHT AS A CAB DRIVER.

THE MILITARY HASN'T PAID HIM FOR FIVE MONTHS.

YOU KNOW, THE DEFENSE MINISTRY HAS SAID THAT IT IS ILLEGAL FOR OFFICERS TO HAVE A JOB OUT OF THE MILITARY.

>> Translator: YES, IT IS PROHIBITED BY THE DEFENSE MINISTER, BUT THE MINISTER ISN'T FEEDING MY FAMILY.

I HAVE TO DO THAT.

>> THE MILITARY CAN'T EVEN AFFORD TO TRAIN ITS PILOTS.

SOME GET AS LITTLE AS TEN HOURS A YEAR OF FLYING TIME, A FRACTION OF WHAT THEY NEED.

30% OF THE CASUALTIES IN CHECHNYA CAME FROM FRIENDLY FIRE, BECAUSE AIR FORCE AND HELICOPTER PILOTS WERE REGULARLY BOMBING AND STRAFING THEIR OWN TROOPS.

MILITARY SERVICE USED TO BE A BADGE OF HONOR, AND YOUNG RUSSIANS FLOCKED TO THE RECRUITING STATIONS.

BUT NOW, ALMOST 90% OF THOSE CALLED UP ARE DODGING THE DRAFT.

BUT THE RECRUITERS WE MET WERE RELUCTANT TO ADMIT THE ARMY'S PROBLEMS.

IF MOST OF YOUR BEST AND YOUR BRIGHTEST YOUNG MEN ARE TRYING TO DODGE THE DRAFT, WHAT KIND OF AN ARMY DO YOU THINK THE RUSSIANS CAN FIELD?

>> Translator: THOSE WHO COME HERE, THEY WILL SERVE.

AND SERVE WELL.

WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THE RUSSIAN ARMY FALLING TO PIECES DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

AFTER ALL, WE HAVE A HISTORY OF VICTORIES.

WE BEAT HITLER.

>> BUT YOUR OWN OFFICIALS, YOUR OWN MINISTRY OF DEFENSE, ARE SAYING THAT THE RUSSIAN ARMY IS FALLING APART NOW.

DO YOU AGREE THAT THE MILITARY IS FALLING APART?

>> Translator: NO.

>> BUT MILITARY UNITS ARE SHORT, BY ABOUT ONE-THIRD THE NECESSARY MANPOWER.

AND MANY OF THOSE WHO DO WIND UP IN THE MILITARY ARE DROPOUTS, DRUG ADDICTS, AND PETTY CRIMINALS.

WHICH HAS LED TO ANOTHER SERIOUS PROBLEM -- REPORTS OF BRUTALITY WITHIN THE RANKS ARE HORRIFYING.

MANY OF THE VICTIMS AND THEIR PARENTS SEEK HELP AT THE COMMITTEE OF SOLDIERS' MOTHERS.

ORGANIZATIONS WHICH ARE SPRINGING UP ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO PROTEST WHAT'S GOING ON.

PASHA TOLD US HE WAS REPEATEDLY BEATEN.

AT ONE TIME, HIT SO SEVERELY IN HIS GENITALS THAT HE HAD TO BE HOSPITALIZED.

AND HE SAID HE HAD VOLUNTEERS TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY.

>> Translator: WHEN I ARRIVED IN THE ARMY, I BECAME CONVINCED WE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE AN ARMY.

>> HIS MOTHER TOLD US SHE COULDN'T BELIEVE WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE MILITARY.

>> Translator: IT IS SOMETHING INCREDIBLE.

WE GO TO VISIT HIM ON SUNDAYS, ALL THE SOLDIERS ARE DRUNK.

WHAT KIND OF ARMY IS THAT?

>> THE UNCLE OF ANOTHER RECRUIT TOLD US HIS NEPHEW HAD ALSO BEEN BEATEN AND THEN DESERTED.

>> Translator: HE SAID HE'D RATHER COMMIT SUICIDE THAN BESENT BACK THERE.

EVEN IF THEY SHOOT ME, I WON'T LET HIM GO BACK.

I AM READY TO GO TO HIS COMMANDER AND SPIT IN HIS FACE, BUT I WON'T GIVE THEM MY NEPHEW.

>> YOU HEAR THE SAME STORIES ALL OVER RUSSIA.

>> Translator: I HAD HEARD ABOUT A SOLDIER WHO HAD BEEN THROWN UNDER A TRAIN.

>> BY ONE OF THESE SENIOR GUYS IN YOUR UNIT?

>> Translator: YES, WITHOUT QUESTION.

>> SO, INSTEAD OF TELLING HIS COMMANDER, ALEXI DESERTED HIS UNIT AND WENT HOME.

>> Translator: WHEN MY SON GOT A LETTER FROM HEADQUARTERS ORDERING HIM TO COME BACK, HE WAS SO DESPERATE THAT HE DECIDED TO COMMIT SUICIDE.

HE WAS JUST LUCKY THAT I RETURNED HOME LATER THAT DAY AND I LITERALLY PULLED HIS HEAD OUT OF THE NOOSE.

HE SPENT TWO DAYS IN A COMA IN THE HOSPITAL.

>> IN FACT, LAST YEAR, ACCORDING TO THE MILITARY ITSELF, MORE THAN 500 RUSSIAN SOLDIERS COMMITTED SUICIDE.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST THE BRUTALITY THAT'S DRIVING THE MEN FROM THE MILITARY.

OTHERS ARE FLEEING BECAUSE OF HUNGER.

THE MILITARY SIMPLY CAN'T AFFORD TO PROPERLY FEED ITS MEN.

AND MANY RUSSIAN SOLDIERS HAVE TO PICK CABBAGES AND RAISE PIGS.

EVEN SO, THERE'S MALNUTRITION.

AROUND MOSCOW, YOU CAN SEE MORE AND MORE SOLDIERS ACTUALLY BEGGING IN THE STREETS.

LIKE SASHA, A YOUNG CONSCRIPT, WHO HAS BEEN WORKING ON A MILITARY CONSTRUCTION UNIT.

THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE BUILDING FACILITIES FOR THE STATE.

INSTEAD, THEY'VE BEEN BUILDING APARTMENTS FOR NEW, RICH RUSSIANS.

SASHA'S MILITARY SALARY, WHEN IT'S PAID, IS $4 A MONTH.

CAN YOU BUY ANYTHING WITH THAT?

WHAT CAN YOU BUY?

>> Translator: TWO PACTS OF CIGARETTES AND A PACKAGE OF COOKIES, THAT'S ALL.

I HAVE NOTHING TO LIVE ON.

>> HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL TO HAVE TO BEG?

>> Translator: I FEEL ASHAMED.

REALLY BAD.

>> AND IN RUSSIA'S FAR EAST, SOME SAILORS EVEN STARVED TO DEATH.

HOW COULD THAT HAPPEN?

>> THE UNIT WAS NOT SUPPLIED WITH ENOUGH FOOD.

STRONGER SOLDIERS TAKE THE FOOD FROM THE YOUNGER SOLDIERS.

THOSE YOUNGER SOLDIERS ARE PARTICULARLY VULNERABLE, OR WEAK, MAY FIND THEMSELVES REALLY STARVING TO DEATH.

>> IT'S THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE.

>> YES.

VERY MUCH SO.

>> IF THE ARMY IS DISINTEGRATING, HOW MUCH OF A THREAT DOES THAT POSE TO RUSSIA?

>> IT'S ENORMOUS THREAT.

IT'S PROBABLY THE LARGEST THREAT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY AT PRESENT TIME.

>> SO, DARA, OBVIOUSLY, IT STRIKES ME, OF COURSE, THAT WAS PRE-PUTIN.

PUTIN COMES IN, SAYS, ENOUGH OF THAT, WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

AND AS I SAY, HE'S DONE SOMETHING WITH THE RUSSIAN MILITARY THAT IS NOW OUTPRODUCING, IN THE CURRENT FACEOFF, OUTPRODUCING THE WEST.

>> YES, THAT WAS A REALLY GREAT REPORT, AND IT REALLY TOOK ME BACK.

I STARTED FOLLOWING THE RUSSIAN MILITARY 20 YEARS AGO, WHEN THEY WERE JUST STARTING TO COME OUT OF THAT POVERTY, AND MONEY WAS FLOWING BACK INTO THE COFFERS.

THEY HADN'T YET FIXED A LOT OF THE CULTURAL ISSUES, THEY HADN'T GOTTEN THE NEW MODERNIZED EQUIPMENT UNTIL 2009.

THEY'VE COME A LONG WAY FROM THOSE DAYS, IN MANY RESPECTS.

BUT THERE ARE SOME REAL PROBLEMS ON THE HORIZON FOR THEM YET AGAIN.

>> SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PROBLEMS, BECAUSE HERE, WE TALK ABOUT THE CULTURE OF BULLYING, THE CULTURE OF ABUSE OF A LOT OF THE CONSCRIPTS, AND AS WE KNOW, WHETHER IT'S THE WAGNER, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THE RUSSIAN MILITARY BLOGGERS HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THAT ABUSE IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE WAR.

YOU SAID IN YOUR PIECE, BEFORE THE WAR, RUSSIA'S PRISONS HAS A STABLE POPULATION OF 400,000 TO 420,000.

THAT NUMBER HAS DECLINED TO 266,000 PRISONERS.

THAT MEANS THEY'VE LITERALLY EMPTIED THEIR JAILS OF HALF.

>> YES.

THAT'S RIGHT.

THAT'S RIGHT.

AND MAYBE HALF OF THAT NUMBER WENT TO WAGNER, BUT THE REST OF IT HAS GONE INTO THE RUSSIAN MILITARY, WHERE THEY SERVE IN ASSAULT BATTALIONS.

AND I WOULD PROBABLY MAKE A SLIGHT DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE RUSSIAN MILITARY OF 1997, WHERE THIS HAZING AND THIS VIOLENCE WAS VERY MUCH ROOTED IN POVERTY, AND A COLLAPSE IN RUSSIAN SOCIETY IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF THE END OF THE SOVIET UNION, TO WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY AND WHAT WE PROBABLY WILL SEE FROM THEM WHEN ALL OF THESE SOLDIERS RETURN HOME EVENTUALLY FROM UKRAINE.

POVERTY'S NOT THE ISSUE.

THEY'RE BEING PAID VERY WELL.

IN MANY CASES, ABOVE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE RIGHT NOW.

AND EVEN BEFORE THE WAR, TOO.

BUT I THINK WHAT IS ON THE HORIZON FOR THEM IS THAT EVERYONE IN THE ARMY AND THE AIRBORNE AND THE SPECIAL FORCES, THEY HAVE BEEN AT WAR NOW FOR OVER TWO YEARS, WITH VERY LITTLE REST.

THEY HAVE PROBABLY SEEN WAR CRIMES OR KNOW OF THEM OR PARTICIPATED IN THEM.

THEY WILL RECEIVE VERY LITTLE BY WAY OF DECOMPRESSION OR PSYCHOLOGICAL SUPPORT WHEN THEY RETURN.

SO, WHEN THEY GO BACK INTO THE BARRACKS, THEY ARE GOING TO BRING ALL THAT TRAUMA BACK WITH THEM AND PROBABLY AGAINST FUTURE CONSCRIPTS.

SO, I DO ANTICIPATE A VERY BRUTAL, VIOLENT CULTURE WITHIN THE BARRACKS, AND I DON'T SEE THEM PUTTING POLICIES IN PLACE TO STOP THAT, BUT IT WON'T BE BASED ON POVERTY, IT WILL BE BASED ON WAR AND TRAUMA.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS WHOLE SITUATION MEANS FOR THE LONG-TERM RUSSIAN STABILITY?

OBVIOUSLY PRESIDENT PUTIN IS GOING TO WIN THIS NEXT ELECTION, YOU KNOW, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, UNOPPOSED, BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

IT'S JUST NOT ANOTHER ELECTION.

IT'S HAPPENING NOW AT THIS TIME IN THIS WAR, YOU KNOW, AT HIS AGE, YOU KNOW, FACING OFF AGAINST THE WEST.

>> SO, THE MILITARY FOR PUTIN HAS BEEN A VERY IMPORTANT TOOL IN RAISING RUSSIA'S PRESTIGE ABROAD.

AND SO, SO MUCH OF HIS LEGACY IS GOING TO BE RIDING ON THE OUTCOME OF THIS WAR, WHETHER IT'S A SUCCESS, WHETHER IT'S SOMETHING HE CAN PAINT A SUCCESS, OR WHETHER THEY LOSE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT HAS A LOT OF IMPLICATIONS, AS WELL, FOR STABILITY IN RUSSIAN SOCIETY.

I'M SURE YOU REMEMBER IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE SOVIET UNION'S FORAY INTO AFGHANISTAN AND THEIR FIRST WAR IN CHECHNYA THAT WENT VERY POORLY FOR THE MILITARY.

RUSSIAN SOLDIERS AND VETERANS -- NOT A LOT OF PRESTIGE, NOT A LOT OF RESPECT, AND ACTUALLY PEOPLE DID WHATEVER THEY COULD TO KEEP THEIR SONS AWAY FROM THAT ORGANIZATION.

SO, THIS IS IN THE BACK OF PUTIN'S MIND, TOO.

THERE'S A LOT MORE AT STAKE FOR HIM AND DOMESTIC STABILITY, CONTINGENT ON THE RESULTS OF THIS WAR.

>> AND OF COURSE HISTORIANS SAY THAT LOSING THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN PRECIPITATED PARTLY THE FALL OF THE SOVIET UNION ITSELF, WHICH HAS BEEN PUTIN'S GREAT HUMILIATION.

HE SAID IT'S THE WORST KA TRAS TOE FEE OF THE 20th CENTURY.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, THEN, ABOUT HIS NUCLEAR -- CONSTANT NUCLEAR BRINKSMANSHIP AND BLACKMAIL.

HE SAID IT AGAIN TODAY THEY HAVE A MUCH MORE ADVANCED NUCLEAR TRY YAD THAN THE WEST.

HE SAID, TALKING ABOUT RUSSIA'S CAPABILITY, BUT SAYING, NO ONE IS RUSHING TO A NUCLEAR CONFRONTATION, BUT MOSCOW IS READY FOR IT.

>> YEAH, HE -- HE VERY CONSISTENTLY RETURNS TO THIS WELL, AND I VIEW TODAY'S REMARKS IN CONTEXT OF THE ELECTION, WHICH IS COMING UP IN JUST A FEW DAYS FOR HIM.

I THINK THAT WAS A DOMESTIC KIND OF SABER RATTLING.

AND WHAT I THOUGHT WAS INTERESTING ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR CONVERSATION WAS HIM SIMULTANEOUSLY SAYING, I SEE -- I SAW NO NEED FOR ME TO USE TACTICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN UKRAINE TWO YEARS AGO, BUT ALSO, IF THE UNITED STATES GETS INVOLVED, THIS IS DEFINITELY A RED LINE, AND I WILL -- I WILL -- THIS IS A NUCLEAR RED LINE FOR ME, BECAUSE I'LL CONSIDER AN INTERVENTION.

HE IS ALWAYS TRYING TO FRIGHTEN THE WEST OVER UKRAINE, BUT AGAIN, A CLOSE READ OF RUSSIAN DOCTRINE AND WHAT IS ACTUALLY A THREAT TO THE EXISTENCE OF THE STATE THAT WOULD PROMPT THAT NUCLEAR TRIGGER, THERE IS NOTHING THAT UKRAINE CAN DO TO PROMPT THOSE THRESHOLDS.

SO, HE'S ENGAING IN SABERING AND TRYING TO DETER THE WEST FROM THEIR SUPPORT, BECAUSE IT WOULD PUT THIS WHOLE PROJECT INTO JEOPARDY FOR HIM.

>> DARA MASSICOT.

REALLY INTERESTING TO GET YOUR EXPERIENCE AND PERSPECTIVE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

>>> NOW, FROM WAGING WARS TO COVERING THEM.

FOR YEARS, ROD NORDLAND TRAVELED THE WORLD, REPORTING FROM CONFLICT ZONES AND RISKING HIS LIFE TO TELL THE HUMAN STORIES, FROM SARAJEVO, AFGHANISTAN, CAMBODIA, AND MUCH MORE.

NEARLY FIVE YEARS AGO, IN INDIA, ALL THAT CHANGED WHEN HE COLLAPSED WHILE OUT FOR A RUN.

IN THE AFTERMATH, HAVING BEEN EVACUATED TO NEW YORK, HE WAS DIAGNOSED WITH GLIOBLASTOMA.

IT IS THE MOST SEVERE BRAIN TUMOR, AND IT DOES HAVE A TERMINAL DIAGNOSIS.

BUT NORDLAND HAS OUTLIVED THE 15 MONTHS HE WAS TOLD HE HAD, AND HE HAS JUST PUBLISHED HIS MEMOIR, IT'S CALLED "WAITING FOR THE MONSOON."

AND WE SPOKE RECENTLY HOW IN FACING DEATH, HE FOUND A NEW, AND HE SAYS, BETTER LIFE.

ROD NORDLAND, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

AND, YOU KNOW, YOU AND I GO BACK A LONG, LONG WAY, TO AT LEAST BOSNIA.

AND IT'S AMAZING TO SEE YOU THESE YEARS AFTER YOUR DIAGNOSIS, AND LOOKING WELL.

TELL ME HOW YOU'RE DOING.

>> I'M ACTUALLY HEALTHIER NOW THAN I PROBABLY EVER HAVE BEEN.

I'M VERY STRICTLY FOLLOWING NO CARB DIET, AND I'VE QUIT DRINKING.

AND THOSE TWO THINGS TOGETHER, I THINK, HAVE HELPED ME LOSE QUITE LITERALLY A 50 POUNDS, SO, I'M BACK TO MY 18-YEAR-OLD WEIGHT.

>> IF NOT YOUR 18-YEAR-OLD SELF.

YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH THE WARS.

THE DOCTORS ESSENTIALLY GAVE YOU HOW LONG TO LIVE?

BECAUSE THIS GUY OWE BLAST TOMA IS A TERMINAL DISEASE.

IT'S A TERMINAL CANCER.

>> YEAH, THEY SUSPECTED GLIOBLASTOMA FROM THE PRIMITIVE SCANS THAT WERE DONE OF MY BRAIN FROM THE HOSPITAL IN INDIA, JUST FROM THE SHAPE OF THE TUMOR, I THINK.

AND ONCE I WAS IN NEW YORK, THE SURGEON SAID, YOU HAVE A TUMOR IN THE RIGHT SIDE OF YOUR BRAIN, AND I'M GOING TO CUT IT OUT STRAIGHTAWAY.

AND HE SAWED STRAIGHT IN AND TOOK IT OUT.

>> YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT, YOU ARE LIVING YOUR SECOND LIFE.

AND YOU SEEM TO HAVE AN INCREDIBLY OPTIMISTIC VIEW OF WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU AND REALLY WHAT IT GAVE YOU, WHEN MOST PEOPLE WOULD PROBABLY BE THINKING, OH, MY GOD, THIS IS THE WORST THING POSSIBLE.

YOU HAVE HAD A DIFFERENT ENGAGEMENT WITH YOUR DISEASE.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I ALSO FROM TIME TO TIME THOUGHT, OH, MY GOD, THIS IS HORRIBLE, BUT I MANAGED TO KEEP MY SPIRITS UP, PARTLY THANKS TO THE DEVOTION OF MY PARTNER AND TO MANY GREAT FRIENDS WHO HAVE BEEN THERE FOR ME.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE A DISEASE LIKE THIS, OR BECOME DISABLED, A LOT OF PEOPLE JUST GHOST YOU.

THEY DON'T -- THEY CAN'T FACE IT.

THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO FACE THE REALITY OF IT.

AND THAT CAN BE VERY HURTFUL, BUT I WAS FORTUNATE TO HAVE A LARGE GROUP OF VERY CLOSE FRIENDS AND A VERY DEVOTED PARTNER, WHO HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE FOR ME.

>> BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN A WAR CORRESPONDENT MOST OF YOUR PROFESSIONAL LIFE, I WANT TO ASK YOU HOW THIS IS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED AND THE FEAR AND THE RISK ON THE ROAD?

BECAUSE YOU WRITE, "DEATH WAS NOT ALIEN TO ME.

I HAD SPENT MY CAREER FACING IT DOWN.

I'D COVERED WARS FROM CAMBODIA IN 1978 ON THROUGH IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, AND I'D SEEN MY SHARE OF CARNAGE."

CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE DANGER OF BEING A WAR CORRESPONDENT AND THE DANGER OF BEING, YOU KNOW, FELLED WITH A TERMINAL ILLNESS?

>> ACTUALLY, THERE'S A SURPRISING NUMBER OF SIMILARITIES.

IT'S A VERY INTENSE EXPERIENCE.

COVERING WAR IS A VERY INTENSE EXPERIENCE.

AND DEALING WITH A DISEASE LIKE THIS IS QUITE INTENSE.

THROUGHOUT IT, I THINK I'VE FELT LIKE IT WAS JUST ANOTHER WAR.

AND I HAD TO DEAL WITH IT LIKE I WOULD ANY WAR.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT I FIND VERY TOUCHING ABOUT A LOT OF WHAT YOU WRITE ABOUT IS -- AGAIN, YOU CALL THIS YOUR SECOND LIFE, AND YOU SAY IN A WAY IT'S RICHER AND BETTER THAN YOUR PREVIOUS LIFE, WHEN YOU WERE FULLY HEALTHY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S HAPPENED, YOU WRITE VERY, VERY, YOU KNOW, INTENSELY ABOUT, IS RECONNECTION AND REUNITING WITH YOUR THREE CHILDREN.

YOU HAD BEEN SOMEWHAT ESTRANGED FROM YOUR CHILDREN.

YOU WERE 70 YEARS OLD, YOUR 70th BIRTHDAY WHEN YOU AWOKE FROM SURGERY AND YOU WOKE TO FIND THEM ALL THERE, INCLUDING THEIR MOTHER, YOUR PREVIOUS WIFE.

YOU'VE WRITTEN, I SAW MY CHILDREN BY MY BEDSIDE.

IT WAS THE FIRST TIME WE'D ALL BEEN TOGETHER IN YEARS.

IN THAT MOMENT, I KNEW PERHAPS FOR THE FIRST TIME HOW DEEPLY I WAS LOVED.

IF A FATAL BRAIN TUMOR WAS THE PRICE I HAD TO PAY FOR THAT, I CONSIDERED IT A FAIR BARGAIN.

SO, TELL ME, THEN, WHAT YOU HAVE NOW WITH YOUR CHILDREN.

>> THEY VISIT AND WE TALK ON THE PHONE AND FACETIME A LOT.

AND OUR RELATIONSHIP IS REALLY BETTER THAN IT'S EVER BEEN.

AND I THINK I HAVE THE TUMOR TO THANK FOR THAT.

>> ROD, CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION, BECAUSE YOU DESCRIBE, AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU EVER TALKED ABOUT IT BEFORE YOUR ILLNESS AND BEFORE THIS BOOK, BUT YOU WRITE ABOUT YOUR OWN FATHER, AND IT'S VERY, VERY SHOCKING.

AND YOU AS A KID WITH YOUR SIBLINGS AND YOUR MOTHER ENDURED A LOT OF ABUSE.

AND THEN YOU FOUND SOMETHING OUT ABOUT HIM.

LET ME JUST QUOTE FROM YOUR BOOK.

"MY OWN FATHER HAD BEEN VIOLENT AND ABUSE IT, A SERIAL OFFENDER.

HE DIED IN JAIL.

AROUND THE ANNIVERSARY OF MY DIAGNOSIS, I SOUGHT TREATMENT FOR ALCOHOL ABUSE, AND WITH THE HELP OF A COUNSELOR, SPOKE FOR THE FIRST TIME ABOUT MY FATHER'S CRUELTY.

OVER THE COURSE OF OUR YEAR WORKING TOGETHER, I CAME TO UNDERSTAND WHY I'D USED ALCOHOL TO ANEST TIZ MYSELF.

I HAD BEEN LIBERATED FROM THE SHAME MY FATHER HAD BEQUEATHED ME."

IT IS, AGAIN, QUITE SHOCKING TO REALIZE THAT YOUR CHILDHOOD WAS FULL OF ABUSE AND YOUR MOTHER WAS ABUSED, AS WELL, BUT THAT YOUR FATHER WAS -- I MEAN, YOU FOUND OUT THAT HE WAS A SERIAL PEDOPHILE, ABUSER OF BOTH GIRLS AND BOYS.

TELL ME HOW YOU SURVIVED YOUR CHILDHOOD.

>> OUR MOTHER DID AN INCREDIBLE JOB OF PROTECTING US FROM HIM.

ESPECIALLY MY SISTER.

SHE MADE SURE THAT HE HAD NO CONTACT WITH THEM.

BECAUSE I THINK SHE ALREADY WAS SUSPECTING THAT HE WAS A PEDOPHILE.

TURNED OUT HER SUSPICIONS WERE SPOT-ON.

AND SO SHE REALLY DID A MAGNIFICENT JOB.

PEOPLE OFTEN ASK ME WHY I'VE, YOU KNOW, RESPONDED TO THIS ILLNESS WITH SUCH SELF-CONFIDENCE AND HIGH SPIRITS, AND -- AND I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE OF MY MOTHER, AND INDIRECTLY, BECAUSE OF MY FATHER, BECAUSE MY MOTHER AND I WERE INCREDIBLY CLOSE.

BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO PROTECT US FROM HIS BEATINGS.

THAT OFTEN MEANT THAT SHE WOULD GET AN EVEN WORSE BEATING.

SO, WE WERE VERY CLOSE, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, HER -- HER LOVE AND DEVEGS DEVOTION, YOU KNOW, FILLED ME WITH BELIEF IN MYSELF.

AND SELF-CONFIDENCE THAT'S SERVED ME WELL MY WHOLE LIFE.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU'VE DONE SOME AMAZING REPORTING, AND THE LAST TIME WE TALKED LIKE THIS AND HAD AN INTERVIEW WAS AFTER YOU HAD DONE THIS AMAZING STORY AND THEN A BOOK ABOUT THE LOVERS, IT WAS CALLED "THE LOVERS," AND IT WAS IN AFGHANISTAN, YOU HAD COVERED A LOT OF AFGHANISTAN, AND THIS WAS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, SORT OF THE ROMEO AND JULIET OF AFGHANISTAN A COUPLE THAT WANTED TO GET MARRIED DESPITE THEIR PARENTS, YOU KNOW, DISPLEASURE.

SO, I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT FROM WHEN WE SPOKE, BACK IN 2016, WHEN YOU PUBLISHED THIS BOOK.

DO YOU THINK YOU CROSSED THE LINE AS A REPORTER?

>> YEAH, I CROSSED THE LINE, BUT I ALSO DON'T THINK I REALLY HAD MUCH CHOICE.

WHERE I SPECIFICALLY CROSSED THE LINE FIRST WAS WHEN I FOUND THEM IN THE MOUNTAINS, AND THE RESULT OF THAT WAS THE POLICE WERE PRETTY SOON ON THEIR WAY TO THAT LOCATION, AND WE KNEW THAT THEY WOULD PROBABLY BE ARRESTED, AND I COULD HAVE -- IN A WAY, WOULD HAVE BEEN A BETTER STORY, MORE DRAMATIC STORY TO JUST WATCH AS THEY WERE ARRESTED AND TAKEN AWAY, BUT I DIDN'T FEEL I COULD DO THAT.

I FELT I WAS PARTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM GETTING CAUGHT.

SO, I PUT THEM IN MY CAR AND HELPED THEM ESCAPE.

>> I MEAN, IT'S JUST SO GREAT WATCHING THAT, AND REMEMBERING WHAT YOU DID TO HELP THEM, AND WHAT A GREAT STORY IT WAS.

AND THEN THEY CAME TO AMERICA, RIGHT?

WHAT -- WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?

ARE THEY -- ARE THEY SAFE AND FOUND?

>> YEAH, THEY ARE.

THEY'RE IN PROVIDENCE, RHODE ISLAND, AND THEY HAVE TWO CHILDREN NOW.

AND THEY'RE QUITE HAPPY.

AND UNLIKE MOST AFGHAN HUSBANDS, HE'S NOT BEATING HER.

AND, YEAH, SO, THEIR STORY REALLY HAS A HAPPENING ENDING.

THEY FACED AN HONOR KILLING, AND THEY ESCAPED THAT.

AND GOT REFUGE IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> AND THAT WAS DUE TO YOUR STORY, BECAUSE IT TOUCHED SO MANY PEOPLE.

ROD, I WANT TO ASK YOU A LAST QUESTION, BECAUSE THE BOOK IS CALLED "WAITING FOR THE MONSOON."

AND THIS IS HOW YOU END THE BOOK.

"I'M STILL WAITING FOR THE MONSOON.

IT WILL COLOR MY ACTIONS AS I WAIT, AS WE ALL WAIT.

THE TUMOR HAS CHANGED MY LIFE FOR THE BETTER.

IF I SURVIVE IT, SO MUCH THE BETTER.

EVEN IF I DON'T, THAT MUCH WILL ALWAYS BE TRUE, EVEN UNTIL THE END OF DAYS."

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO GET OUT OF YOUR REMAINING DAYS?

AND WHAT DO YOU WANT THE BOOK TO TELLPEOPLE?

>> I HOPE THAT IT WILL HELP OTHER PEOPLE WITH SIMILAR DISEASES OR DISABILITIES.

HELP THEM FIND A WAY TO RESPOND TO IT.

POSITIVELY.

AND CONSTRUCTIVELY.

JUST JUDGING FROM THE COMMENTS THAT WE'VE HAD SO FAR, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE TAKEN IT THAT WAY.

WHICH IS WONDERFUL.

>> WELL, IT'S SO GOOD TO SEE YOU, AND IT'S AN ENORMOUS BATTLE THAT YOU'VE BEEN WAGING -- >> SAME HERE.

>> AND WE WISH YOU ALL THE BEST AND CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

GREAT TO TALK TO YOU AGAIN.

>> YOU, TOO, ROD.

BRAVE AND RESILIENT FORMER COLLEAGUE.

>>> NEXT, BOTH PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN AND FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HAVE MANAGED TO SEAL THEIR PARTY NOMINATIONS, BUT AMERICANS ACROSS THE COUNTRY WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE PART IN THE PRIMARY PROCESS UNTIL THE FINAL CONTESTS IN JUNE.

AS THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE HEATS UP, FORMER LONGTIME REPUBLICAN BILL KRISTOL WARNS OF THE DANGER OF A TRUMP SECOND TERM.

AND HE JOINS WALTER ICE ACTSON TO DISCUSS WHAT'S EXACTLY ON THE LINE.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

BILL KRISTOL, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.

>> LET ME QUOTE SOMETHING YOU WROTE IN A COLUMN, IN WHICH YOU SAID, "THE UNITED STATES IS CLOSER TO CONSTITUTIONAL FAILURE TODAY THAN IT WAS ON JANUARY 6th."

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> WELL, I THINK THE GUARDRAILS HELD ON JANUARY 6th.

THE -- THE INDIVIDUALS HELD, TOO, MIKE PENCE, LET'S GIVE HIM SOME CREDIT.

AND, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST A GOOD CHUNK OF REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS IN THE HOUSE.

AND, OF COURSE, THE DEMOCRATS HELD AND, SO, THE SYSTEM WORKED, SORT OF, ON JANUARY 6th.

THE TROUBLE IS, ONCE TRUMP IS RENOMINATED AFTER JANUARY 6th, THERE ARE FEWER GUARDRAILS, CERTAINLY WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND IN A WAY, THE PUBLIC HAS NOW BEEN USED TO THE IDEA THAT -- WHAT DOES IT SAY WHEN THEY'RE WILLING TO RENOMINATE TRUMP AFTER JANUARY 6th?

IT SAYS THAT THEY DON'T CARE.

AND SO, IT SAYS TO EVERY REPUBLICAN OUT THERE THAT, HEY, NOT JUST REPUBLICANS, PERHAPS, YOU KNOW, GO AHEAD, TAKE A SHOT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DON'T WIN, TRY TO OVERTURN IT ANYWAY, INVENT CRAZY CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT HOW THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

AND I THINK, IN THAT RESPECT, AS I SAY, WE'RE FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD, AWAY FROM THE RULE OF LAW, AWAY FROM A BASIC RESPECT FOR TRUTH, THAN WE WERE EVEN ON JANUARY 6th.

>> YOU ARE AMONG REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE LED THE RESISTANCE TO DONALD TRUMP.

NOW THAT HE'S APPARENTLY THE NOMINEE, THERE'S NO STOPPING HIM, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

>> I MEAN, I HAVE BEEN AN EX-REPUBLICAN FOR AWHILE, AND I WILL REMAIN IT FOR 2024 AND DO MY BEST TO HELP STOP DONALD TRUMP FROM GETTING A SECOND TERM AT PRESIDENT, WHICH I THINK WOULD BE MUCH MORE DANGEROUS, ACTUALLY, THAN HIS FIRST TERM, SO, I'M STILL NEVER TRUMP.

>> AND BY THE WAY, WHEN YOU SAY YOU'LL DO EVERYTHING TO STOP HIM, DOES THAT MEAN YOU'RE GOING TO BE CAMPAIGNING FOR JOE BIDEN?

>> YEAH, UNLESS -- AND -- OR IF JOE BIDEN STEPS ASIDE, MAYBE A YOUNGER DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE, SOMETHING I'VE BEEN PUSHING FOR A YEAR.

>> THAT'S STILL A POSSIBILITY?

>> I THINK IT'S A VERY OUTSIDE POSSIBILITY, BUT NO, BUT I'M ACTUALLY INVOLVED WITH THE REPUBLICANS VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP, WE DID THIS IN 2020, WE'LL DO IT AGAIN IN 2024 IN SWING STATES, GETTING PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN REPUBLICANS, AND IN THIS CASE, GETTING PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY VOTED FOR TRUMP BEFORE TO SAY, LOOK, I VOTED FOR HIM, MAYBE HE DID SOME GOOD THINGS, BUT WE CAN'T -- GIVEN WHAT WE KNOW AFTER JANUARY 6th, GIVEN WHAT WE KNOW WHAT HE'S SAID ABOUT WHAT HE WOULD TRY TO DO AS PRESIDENT IF HE'S IN THERE AGAIN, WE CAN'T RUN THAT RISK.

SO, HOPEFULLY WE'LL MOVE SOME SWING VOTERS IN KEY STATES WHO, YOU KNOW, ARE NOT DIE HARD DEMOCRATS, ARE NOT DIE HARD BIDEN FANS, SO, A LOT OF THEM SAY, I'M NOT CRAZY ABOUT BIDEN FOR THIS REASON OR THAT, BUT THEY HOPEFULLY WILL NOT -- WILL UNDERSTAND THE REAL DANGER OF A TRUMP SECOND TERM.

>> THE REAL DANGER OF A TRUMP SECOND TERM.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

WHY DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE MORE DANGEROUS THAN THE FIRST TERM?

>> BECAUSE WHEN HE TOOK OVER IN 2017, HE WAS SORT OF DISORGANIZED, DIDN'T KNOW WASHINGTON THAT WELL.

AND THEN BROUGHT IN PEOPLE, AS HE HIMSELF HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT LATER, WHO WERE MORE ESTABLISHED REPUBLICANS WHO CONSTRAINED HIM IN SOME VERY IMPORTANT WAYS.

I'D SAY ESPECIALLY IN FOREIGN POLICY.

THE McMASTERS AND THE JOHN BOLTONS AND MARK ESPER, I MEAN, ALL OF THEM DIDN'T QUITE LET HIM DO WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.

I MEAN, YOU THINK OF THE UKRAINE IMPEACHMENT, THAT YOU SEE ONE AFTER ANOTHER, FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICER AND PEOPLE UP TO THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JOHN BOLTON SAYING, WAIT A SECOND, SIR, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

AND IT ACTUALLY DID STOP HIM FROM DOING WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.

WHEN IT CAME OUT, HE GOT IMPEACHED.

NOT CONVICTED.

AND THEN IN MANY OTHER AREAS.

ONE CAN CERTAINLY NOT APPROVE OF BILL BARR'S PERFORMANCE, BUT HE WASN'T WILLING TO DO WHAT TRUMP WANTED AFTER NOVEMBER 3rd.

AND THE SAME IN OTHER PARTS OF THE GOVERNMENT.

ALL OF THAT, I THINK, YOU CAN'T COUNT ON AT ALL IN THE SECOND TERM.

SOME OF THE GUARDRAILS WON'T BE THERE, THE INTERNAL ONES, SO TO SPEAK, WON'T BE THERE, OR MUCH WEAKER.

AND HE'S GOT PEOPLE AROUND HIM WHO HAVE REALLY THOUGHT THROUGH HOW TO ACHIEVE WHAT I WOULD CALL, YOU KNOW, AUTHORITARIAN VISION OF TRANSFORMING THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.

MAJOR THINK TANKS AND A LOT OF MONEY, A LOT OF WORK BEING DONE, AND THEY'RE NOT BEING DONE BY -- THESE ARE NOT FOOLISH PEOPLE.

THEY MAY BE FOOLISH IN THEIR VOTES, BUT THEY'RE NOT -- >> GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES OF THE THINGS THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO.

>> A LOT OF THEM GOT THIS WARTED IN THE FIRST TERM, NOW THEY'RE GOING TO COME BACK WITH REAL PLANS OF HOW NOT TO BE THWARTED.

>> WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO?

>> THE THINGS TRUMP TRIED TO DO AFTER HE LOST THE ELECTION ON NOVEMBER 3rd TO JANUARY 6th, WHAT HE TRIED TO DO IN THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, WHAT HE TRIED TO DO IN THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES, I THINK THOSE ARE THINGS HE WILL TRY TO DO FROM DAY ONE.

WILL HE TRANSFORM AMERICA ON JANUARY 21st, 2025, INTO AN ORBAN-LIKE HUNGARY STATE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

NO, OF COURSE NOT.

AND WE HAVE MANY, MANY MORE STRUCTURES AND INSTITUTIONS THAT WILL SLOW HIM DOWN, SO TO SPEAK, BUT OVER A YEAR, TWO YEARS, THREE YEARS, WITH THE KINDS OF APPOINTEES HE MIGHT PUT INTO JUSTICE AND DEFENSE?

ALL THESE BARRIERS WE KIND OF TAKE FOR GRANTED.

THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS NOT GOING TO BE USED TO GO AFTER YOUR CRITICS, OR THAT CONTRACTS ARE NOT GOING TO BE GIVEN OUT IN OTHER DEPARTMENTS SIMPLY TO FRIENDS.

ALL THE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED ON THE MARGINS OF AMERICAN POLITICS FOR DECADES AND FOR CENTURIES, AND THAT WE MOSTLY PUSHED BACK SUCCESSFULLY AGAINST.

THOSE ARE THE ABUSES WE THINK OF.

THE SCANDALS, NIXON AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, NIXON TRYING TO USE THE CIA.

THOSE SCANDALS HAVE BECOME KIND OF THE ROUTINE FOR TRUMP, AND I THINK ESPECIALLY IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCIES, A LOT OF THESE THINGS ARE, AS YOU KNOW, WALTER, THE CUSTOMS, SOME OF THEM ARE IN THEIR PROCEDURES AND PRACTICES, SOME OF THEM ARE EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

NOT THAT MANY OF THEM ARE REALLY LAW.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE WAYS IN WHICH GENERALS GET PROMOTED OR MADE GENERALS IN THE FIRST PLACE, GENERAL OFFICERS IN THE FIRST PLACE IN THE U.S. MILITARY, THE DEGREE TO WHICH YOU COULD CERTAINLY START PICKING TRUMP-FRIENDLY GENERALS FOR KEY POSITIONS, AND OBVIOUSLY SAME WITH THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES WITH CIVILIANS.

SO, I THINK IT'S -- IT WOULD BE A DANGEROUS SERIES OF STEPS DOWN THE ROAD AWAY FROM THE RULE OF LAW, AND AWAY FROM THE KINDS OF BARRIERS THAT WE PUT IN PLACE OVER DECADES, CENTURIES, REALLY.

CIVIL SERVICE IS SOMETHING THEY ARE TARGETING.

>> YEAH, I WOULD THINK A LOT OF TRUMP PEOPLE WOULD AGREE WITH YOU.

SAY, THERE'S A DEEP STATE, THERE'S A WHOLE CIVIL SERVICE, THERE'S A WHOLE WAY THAT THE MILITARY, AND PEOPLE IN THIS DEEP STATE, HAVE THWARTED PEOPLE WHO WANT REAL CHANGE IN THIS GOVERNMENT, AND WE'VE GOT TO SWEEP THAT AWAY, THAT SEEMS TO BE THE, EITHER THREAT OR THE PROMISE OF WHAT A SECOND TRUMP TERM WOULD BE.

>> TO ME, THAT'S A DANGEROUS IDEOLOGY.

DO THINGS NEED TO BE REFORMED?

CIVIL SERVICE RULES PERFECT?

I'VE ACTUALLY SERVED IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND I'M IN FAVOR OF A LITTLE MORE FLEXIBILITY FOR MANAGERS, ABILITY TO REMOVE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T DOING A GOOD JOB, APPROPRIATE LEGAL PROCEDURES.

BUT NOT FOR THE PRESIDENT TO ARBITRARILY DECIDE, AS HE TRIED TO IN THE FIRST TERM, THINK OF THE THINGS HE TRIED TO DO, ANYONE WHO -- CERTAIN PEOPLE ARE JUST GOING TO BE SEPARATED FROM THE MILITARY BECAUSE HE DOESN'T LIKE THEIR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.

THEIR SEXUAL IDENTIFICATION.

AND THEN THEIR GENDER IDENTIFICATION.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, BECAUSE THERE WERE A LOT OF BARRIERS IN PLACE, JUST HAVING A PRESIDENT SNAP HIS FINGERS AND FIRE PEOPLE FROM CIVIL SERVICE OR FROM MILITARY SERVICE.

BUT AGAIN, IF THEY GET TO WORK ON THAT ON JANUARY 21st, 2025, YOU KNOW, A FEW MONTHS LATER, THEY CAN REMOVE A LOT OF THOSE BARRIERS.

>> THAT'S WHAT TRUMP SORT OF SAID WHEN YOU MENTIONED VIKTOR ORBAN, THE AUTHORITARIAN LEADER IN HUNGARY, COMES DOWN TO MAR-A-LAGO LAST WEEK AND TRUMP SAID, I WANT TO BE THAT WAY.

I WANT TO JUST ORDER.

HE ORDERS AND HE GETS THINGS DONE.

ISN'T THERE A DESIRE IN THIS DAY AND AGE AROUND THE WORLD FOR SOME STRONGER LEADERS, GIVEN THE DYSFUNCTION OF THIS DEMOCRACY?

>> THERE ABSOLUTELY IS, AND THERE ARE ELECTIONS AFTER ELECTIONS, AND SOME AUTHORITARIANS DO WELL, SOMETIMES, FORTUNATELY, THEY DO LOSE, AS HERE, 2020, BUT THE DYSFUNCTION IS NOT SOLVED BY DICTATORSHIP OR BY ARBITRARY RULE.

THAT MAKES THINGS EVEN WORSE.

THERE ARE -- ONE OF THE WORST THINGS ABOUT THE WHOLE -- ABOUT TRUMP, TRUMP MAKES IT HARDER TO PURSUE SENSIBLE REFORMS, BECAUSE HONESTLY, ONE HAS TO DEFEND THE STATUS QUO AGAINST THESE KINDS OF ATTEMPTS AT ARBITRARY POWER, BUT THE STATUS QUO DOES NEED TO BE REFORMED.

TO BE FAIR, JOE BIDEN HAS DONE A FAIR AMOUNT OF REFORMING, HE'S PURSUED A PRETTY ACTIVIST AGENDA, HE'S GOTTEN A LOT OF STUFF THROUGH CONGRESS, SO, IT'S NOT AS IF WE'VE ENTIRELY SEEN DYSFUNCTION IN THE BIDEN ERA, AND HE'S GOT BIPARTISAN SUPPORT, LET'S SAY, FOR AID IN UKRAINE AND FOREIGN POLICY, AND THERE IT'S TRUMP HIMSELF, AND MIKE JOHNSON, HIS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, WHO IS STOPPING A POLICY THAT HAS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT OF HELPING UKRAINE AGAINST PUTIN GET THROUGH.

SO, YOU KNOW, THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT THE DYSFUNCTION, BUT WHEN THEY ADD TO THE DYSFUNCTION.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT UKRAINE QUITE A BIT, AND I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN VERY STRONG IN OUR NEED TO STAND -- TO STAND AS STALWARTS WITH UKRAINE.

YOU THINK THAT CAN BE AN ELECTION ISSUE?

>> THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM, AS YOU KNOW, IS AMERICAN VOTERS DON'T VOTE ON FOREIGN POLICY, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE COLD WAR, THEY DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT AND SO FORTH.

I WOULD SAY, I DON'T QUITE AGREE WITH THAT IN GENERAL, BUT I REALLY THINK THAT MIGHT NOT BE THE CASE THIS TIME.

I DO THINK PEOPLE HAVE A SENSE THAT WHAT FEBRUARY 24th, 2022, WAS THE BEGINNING, PERHAPS, OF A NEW INTERNATIONAL ERA, OR, AT LEAST A CHALLENGE, TO ANY HOPE FOR A SORT OF STABLE AND, YOU KNOW, FREEDOM-FRIENDLY INTERNATIONAL ORDER.

I WAS TALKING WITH SOMEONE VERY CLOSE TO NIKKI HALEY THE OTHER DAY, THIS PERSON SAID THAT SHE, GOVERNOR HALEY, WAS SURPRISED HOW MUCH VOTERS RESPONDED TO HER ON UKRAINE, AND ON FOREIGN POLICY.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE MANY DIFFERENCES SHE HAD WITH TRUMP, AND HAS WITH TRUMP.

AND SHE WOULD SORT OF MENTION IT IN THE LIST OF DIFFERENCES THAT SHE HAS, YOU KNOW, TRUMP'S CHARACTER IS A PROBLEM, HE SPENT TOO MUCH MONEY AND THE DEFICIT.

THE THING PEOPLE HAD THE SENSE OF, IS WHAT TRUMP SAID ABOUT NATO, WHAT HE'S DONE IN TERMS OF HIS COURTSHIP OF PUTIN AND APPROVAL OF DICTATORS.

THAT THAT REALLY, FOR, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENTS CAN MAKE A LOT OF OTHER MISTAKES, BUT THAT'S SOMETHING, ONCE THAT UNRAVELS, YOU CAN'T PUT IT BACK TOGETHER.

AND THAT'S AN AREA THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS SO MUCH POWER, IT'S A LITTLE HARDER FOR CONGRESS TO STOP HIM.

IT'S NOT LIKE OPPOSING A SPENDING BILL THAT DOESN'T GO THROUGH.

SO, ANYWAY, I THINK FOREIGN POLICY COULD BE MORE OF AN ISSUE IN THIS CAMPAIGN THAN PEOPLE HAVE EXPECTED, AND JOE BIDEN BEGAN HIS STATE OF THE UNION SPEECH LAST WEEK WITH UKRAINE, RIGHT?

>> YOU WERE A LEADER IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF RONALD REAGAN AND GEORGE H.W.

BUSH AND DAN QUAYLE.

HOW DID THAT REPUBLICAN PARTY, A LARGE PART OF IT, BECOME THE PRO-RUSSIA, PRO-PUTIN PARTY?

>> I MEAN, I THINK TRUMP IS THE MAIN ANSWER.

HE WON THE NOMINATION.

THAT, AND I THINK MIGHT HAVE BEEN AN ABERRATION, WHAT COULD HAVE GOTTEN BEYOND THAT, THAT HE WON THE ELECTION.

THEN HE WAS PRESIDENT FOR FOUR YEARS.

WON RENOMINATION.

THEN HE LOST, THEN HE LIED ABOUT THE ELECTION, OR TRIED TO OVERTURN IT, JANUARY 6th HAPPENED, AND NOW HE'S THE NOMINEE AGAIN.

IT'S REALLY ASTOUNDING, HONESTLY, IF YOU STEP BACK AND THINK ABOUT THAT, BUT IT MEANS IT'S HIS PARTY.

I MEAN, NO ONE CAN SAY AFTER THREE STRAIGHT NOMINATIONS THAT, OH, MY GOD, WHERE IS THE OLD REPUBLICAN PARTY?

>> LET ME ASK DEEPER -- WHY?

WHY HAS THE PARTY DONE THAT?

IT'S NOT JUST HIM, IT'S THE VOTES IN ALMOST EVERY PRIMARY.

>> I THINK WHAT ELECTED TRUMP, HE DID HAVE THIS SET OF AMERICA FIRST VIEWS.

AND I THINK THE FACT THAT NEITHER PARTY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA REALLY AFTER ROMNEY'S DEFEAT, I GUESS, IN 2012, DID MUCH TO MAKE THE CASE FOR AMERICAN WORLD LEADERSHIP.

WE WERE TIRED AFTER AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ AND ALL THAT, PRESIDENT OBAMA DIDN'T DO WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD DO IN SYRIA.

WE GOT KIND OF USED TO, AS A COUNTRY, SAYING, WELL, THESE PROBLEMS ARE TOO HARD FOR US TO DEAL WITH.

I THINK THAT MADE IT A LITTLE EASIER FOR TRUMP TO MAKE HIS AMERICA FIRST CASE, OR TO SELL THAT TO PEOPLE.

AND HERE WE ARE.

NOW, TO HIS CREDIT, I THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS REALLY FORCEFULLY RESISTED THAT, AND HAS DONE SO PRETTY EFFECTIVELY.

>> HE GAVE A VERY FIERY STATE OF THE UNION SPEECH.

DO YOU THINK THAT WAS EFFECTIVE, OR DO YOU THINK THAT A SORT OF CALMER MESSAGE SHOULD BE THE MESSAGE FOR THE CAMPAIGN?

>> I THINK IT WAS PRETTY EFFECTIVE.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT WILL CHANGE THINGS FUNDAMENTALLY.

ONE SPEECH CAN KIND OF GO PRETTY FAST.

BUT NO, I THINK HE'S RIGHT TO REALLY PUT THE STAKES OUT THERE, AND THAT'S WHAT HE DID AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SPEECH WITH UKRAINE AND WITH JANUARY 6th.

THEN HE GOT INTO HIS MORE STANDARD, YOU KNOW, STATE OF THE UNION LAUNDRY LIST.

BUT I THINK HE NEEDS TO MAKE PEOPLE -- LOOK, HE NEEDS THE VOTES OF SOME PEOPLE WHO AREN'T LOYAL DEMOCRATS, WHO HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT HIS AGE.

YOU CAN'T JUST -- SOME OF MY DEMOCRATS FRIENS THINK HE CAN OVERCOME DOUBTS BY YELLING AT THEM YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE DOUBTS.

HE OBVIOUSLY ISN'T GOING TO SAY WHAT I CAN SAY, WHICH IS, GEE, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE BETTER IF THERE WAS A YOUNGER DEMOCRAT, HE CAN SAY, LOOK, I AM WHAT I AM.

HE HAS BEEN SAYING THIS, I AM A LITTLE OLD, BUT I THINK MY EXPERIENCE STANDS ME -- PUTS ME IN GOOD STEAD, AND HERE ARE MY CORE POLICIES AND HERE'S WHY THEY'RE SO DIFFERENT FROM THOSE OF DONALD TRUMP.

HE NEEDS THE VOTES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE A LITTLE BIT HESITANT AND RELUCTANT TO VOTE FOR HIM.

>> A LOT OF THE REPUBLICANS AGAINST TRUMP, WHETHER IT BE NIKKI HALEY OR FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR, THEY SAY, YEAH, BUT BIDEN'S SO MUCH WORSE.

WHAT'S YOUR OPINION OF BIDEN, YOU KNOW, DO YOU THINK THAT IT'S HARD FOR REPUBLICAN TO VOTE FOR BIDEN?

>> IT SHOULDN'T BE, REALLY.

HE'S BEEN A PRETTY GOOD PRESIDENT, AND HE'S BEEN A PRETTY MODERATE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, AOC IS NOT RUNNING THE COUNTRY, JOE BIDEN IS, AND IN FACT, THE DEMOCRATIC LEFT IS KIND OF UPSET ABOUT VARIOUS THINGS THAT BIDEN IS DOING.

HE'S MUCH MORE A HUBERT HUMPHREY DEMOCRAT THAN A LEFT WING DEMOCRAT, I THINK.

MY DOUBTS ABOUT HIM HAVE MORE TO DO WITH HOW STRONG A CANDIDATE HE'LL BE FOR RE-ELECTION.

AND THAT'S MOSTLY AGE.

BUT I THINK AS PRESIDENT, HE'S BEEN VERY MUCH IN THE TRADITION OF MAINSTREAM DEMOCRATS, AND I THINK REPUBLICANS, EVERYTHING IS SO POLARIZED AND, I GUESS THERE'S SUCH A SENSE IF YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN ELECTED OFFICIAL, EVEN NOT SUCH A TRUMPY ONE, TO GO ON AND ON ABOUT HOW HORRIBLE BIDEN IS, AND THE LET'S RUNNING EVERYTHING.

AND HERE'S SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE THAT'S HAPPENED ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS, AND I DON'T LIKE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, AND JOE BIDEN IS TO BLAME FOR THAT, AS IF HE RUNS THE FACULTY AT AMHERSELF OR SOMETHING.

THERE IS A KIND OF DERANGEMENT SYNDROME, I THINK, ON THE RIGHT, WHICH HAS SPILLED OVER EVEN TO SOME IN THE CENTER, I'VE GOT TO SAY, ABOUT JOE BIDEN.

>> BILL KRISTOL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS, WALTER.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, REMEMBER THIS SONG?

♪ OH ♪ ♪ I WANT TO GET AWAY ♪ ♪ I WANT TO FLY AWAY ♪ YEAH YEAH YEAH ♪ >> SO, IT'S THE ICONIC '90s ANTHEM "FLY AWAY" BY ROCK STAR LENNY KRAVITZ, WHO TODAY, AFTER 35 YEARS IN THE BUSINESS, CEMENTED HIS LEGEND STATUS WITH A STAR ON THE HOLLYWOOD WALK OF FAME.

A HOST OF OTHER CELEBS JOINED THE CEREMONY, INCLUDING HIS DAUGHTER, THE ACTRESS ZOE KRAVITZ.

I RECENTLY SPOKE TO THE MUSICIAN ABOUT WHAT INSPIRES HIM.

YOU SAY YOUR EARLY INFLUENCES AND YOUR FAVORITE BAND WAS THE JACKSON 5.

THEN YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU MOVED ONTO HENDRIX AND ZEPPELIN AND DAVID BOWIE.

WHO ARE YOUR INFLUENCES TODAY?

AND WHO YOU SEE TO BE INS FLUSING YOURSELF?

>> I'M STILL INTO THE CLASSICS.

I MEAN, I LISTEN TO -- I LISTEN TO EVERYTHING, I MEAN, I'VE BEEN LISTENING TO A LOT OF JOHN COME TRAIN LATELY, AND MILES DAVIS AND NINA SIMONE AND BOB DYLAN AND THE STONES AND, I MEAN, ARETHA FRANKLIN.

I LOVE MUSIC.

I LOVE MUSIC.

AND I'M CONTINUALLY LEARNING FROM THE MASSES, YOU KNOW?

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.