The chaotic scene unfolded in South Burlington Wednesday night as federal immigration authorities raided a home while activists tried to impede the arrests of the people inside.

I mean, it looks like, oh, wow.

What was that?

Yeah, that was a flash bang.

That's another one.

We'll break down the day's events and discuss why Ice and Vermont police are facing scrutiny.

All that and more ahead on Vermont This Week.

From the Vermont Public studio in Winooski.

This is Vermont This Week, made possible in part by the Lintilhac Foundation and Milne Travel.

Here's moderator Mitch Wertlieb.

Thanks so much for joining us.

I'm Mitch Wertlieb.

It's Friday, March 13th, and with us on the panel today, we have Kevin McCallum from Seven Days, Sasha Goldstein from Seven Days.

As well.

And Liam Elder-Connors from Vermont Public.

Thank you all so much for being here.

We're going to start with the events that everyone is talking about.

We're just two days removed from this.

Really chaotic scene.

As we showed at the top there, Ice agents, descended on South Burlington.

Liam, Elder-Connors, you were there early in the day as this, began to break a little after 7:00 in the morning on Wednesday.

So Ice agents came to a particular house in South Burlington.

Why were they targeting this particular house?

So what we understand from South Burlington Police is that Ice had been surveilling this house earlier in the day, and we're looking to arrest a man.

And when the man that they believed, that they were trying to arrest got into a car, drove off the ice, agents followed him.

Man tried to escape them when they boxed him in, hitting some of the Ice agents vehicles, and then hitting another vehicle in oncoming traffic when he was trying to escape.

So there was a multiple car crashes happening that morning, on Dorsett Street, which is a really busy street near two public schools in South Burlington.

The University Mall is right there.

And the man who Ice was trying to arrest left his car after the the third car accident that he was in and ran into this house that federal agents then were trying to go into to, to detain this man.

So that is kind of what we understand about how we got to this standoff to that point.

At that point, there is a lot and we should really emphasize this.

That is still a no.

We're only a couple of days removed from this entire incident because as the Ice agents went into that particular house, right.

They did not find the man that you're talking about.

They say they believed he went into that house, but he was not there when they went inside.

Eventually.

Yeah, I want to just kind of there's a lot that happened before we even got to the point of Ice agents going into the house, right.

We had a protest growing there.

Sasha, I know you were there as well.

In the morning.

Migrant Justice local advocacy group, had put out a call that there was an immigration enforcement action happening in South Burlington at this address.

And so people started showing up basically to to try to impede, the action that was going on.

Yeah, exactly.

I my understanding is a neighbor happened to see a masked man in his neighbor's yard and called migrant Justice and said, there's something going on.

And they had kind of this network that's text and emails and sends it out and says, we need you here.

Now.

They're trying to take, you know, a community member and, the Ice agents, once someone's in a in a house, they can't just go in it.

They need a warrant.

And so they're standing outside of this home, trying to figure out what to do to detain the person inside.

And meanwhile, that allowed the protesters to amass.

And throughout the day, we saw it grow from about, you know, just a few people.

I got there to around 920.

By the time I came back around 430, there were hundreds of people.

And it was just, a much different scene.

So so that's kind of how it all, built up, you know, there was this wait for this criminal warrant to try to pull someone wanted for being in the country, as an undocumented person.

But then there were local and state police involved in this as well.

What do we know about their involvement?

Well, Burlington South Burlington Police had been on scene kind of from the beginning.

And to be clear, they were not aware about ICE's immigration enforcement activity that that had been going on, that they weren't they hadn't told supper on the police, hey, we're coming there.

It's going to happen.

Yeah.

That's that, that's right.

So they were there.

And, you know, when we got to the scene, we're saying that they were there to kind of make sure that everyone was safe.

Both, Ice officers on scene.

But also to protect the rights of the people, to be protesting, to kind of keep everyone safe and just monitor the situation.

Vermont State Police showed up later in the afternoon.

State, they showed up because South Burlington had reached out for additional support as things started to grow and escalate, escalate and became clear that Ice was going to get a warrant and execute that warrant and get into the house.

And and one really remarkable part, and when you realize this could be a long term incident, was when they shut down Dorsett Street, which is a very busy you know, this house was not far from the mall, the commercial areas and not far from, the high school.

So we, you know, at that point, it's pretty clear that there's they wanted space for this to to not endanger anyone.

But yeah, initially when I got there, I mean, one of the South Burlington officers was talking to, a woman there.

He knew her from water aerobics class.

So, you know, it was like, this real like, it felt like the community people were.

They are saying we're here to protect our community.

Whereas there was Ice agents that were sort of on the receiving end of some vitriol from people there who had seen things that had happened in Minneapolis and, and didn't like seeing it here.

So what happened then, when Ice went to execute this warrant?

Because they did eventually get a warrant to go inside the house, is that when things began to escalate even more regarding the protesters and the agents?

Yeah.

Protesters had been blocking the front and back doors of the house, had encircled the house.

And when the search warrant was being executed, and they had refused to leave, police, pulled, wrenched protesters away from the door so Ice agents could use a battering ram to knock the door down to get in the house.

I wasn't there for that that particular moment.

But obviously there's a lot of video of this, both from from our own newsroom and from other newsrooms and people that were there as well.

And ice agents went in and ended up detaining three people, from inside the house and that's obviously when things started to, to really escalate at that point.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

I mean, there were things being thrown through the air as, as they were kind of marching in the state police sort of, created a tunnel for, the, the Ice officers to get into the house.

So they were sort of holding their sort of century for them to be able to, to do this warrant.

And I think, that in hindsight now is sort of upset a lot of people, that that local police were, helping in that way, whether, you know, that that's become a very controversial issue.

But that was sort of the beginning of the rising tensions.

And as these people were sort of put into a car, one of the SUVs, then the attention turned to not letting those cars leave the scene.

And that was when things really sort of ramped up.

This was around 530 that they actually went into the house.

It took about 20 minutes for them to come back out with these three detainees.

And it and and once they were in the car, there was a more than an hour where these SUVs couldn't leave Dorsett Street because protesters surrounded it.

They were chanting, yelling, refusing to leave.

And I think at a certain point, the the Ice agents realized they, they needed to do something to get the these cars out of there.

And that's when tensions really kind of erupted.

Arrests, occurred.

What do we know about that?

You know, there were, I believe, eight people that were at least detained on scene and released.

So far, at least three people have been cited for disorderly conduct, according to, what state police put out yesterday.

And, you know, we'll see.

Those arraignments aren't for another month.

So I haven't seen what is contained in those affidavits.

Or if Chittenden County State's Attorney Sarah George will prosecute those cases.

I mean, some of that is a little up in the air.

We'll we'll have to wait and see.

I thought that was very interesting because, State's Attorney George put out a statement kind of saying no one's above the law, vowing to look at everyone involved.

So obviously she's got the state level, citations for these protesters.

But my reading of that statement was, if you are a police officer or an Ice agent who did something I think is wrong, I could also take a look at you.

And, and she also talked about getting the US Attorney's office, to look at what I said done that day.

I don't know that anything's going to happen with that, but she certainly put out a statement saying as much.

Again, we're only two days removed from this, and I want to step back a little bit here and try to provide some context, because state and local police are actually in a difficult position as well, because there is a warrant.

So Ice is going in.

There were state police, to either of your knowledge, you know, for folks who were there saying like, look, we are there not to protect Ice necessarily, but also to protect protesters from confrontations they may have with those federal officials.

That has been what they have said.

And by all accounts, it does not appear that state police went into the house to help extricate any of the people in the house.

They they've been very clear because of the state's fair and impartial policing policy, that they do not coordinate with, federal immigration, agents.

So that's been, the thing, though, that scene state police acting this way, pulling protesters off, the steps, I think, you know, there's they're saying they had to their job was to allow that federal agents to do their job.

So their job at that point was to clear the path for the federal agents to get in.

So, so they're they're they're making a clear distinction that what we did was not enact the federal warrant.

We help them do their job.

But for people from the outside looking in, standing on the lawn, watching what's happening, it sure looked to a lot of people like coordination.

And it certainly looked like coordination with Ice to a lot of the lawmakers that I spoke with afterward, because that was the first thing they seized on where, like, I thought we had rules, very, very clear rules that we have established over years in the fair and impartial policing policy of the state of Vermont that does not allow local and state law enforcement officers to coordinate, collaborate, communicate really in any way with Ice as they go about trying to do their jobs.

And so that was the the almost, universal response from the people I spoke to that they were just appalled to see what they thought was not supposed to happen.

And there's the distinctions that are there behind that, but that was their initial reaction.

Can you elaborate a little more on that?

Kevin, who who did you speak to?

What were some of the reactions that you got?

So one of the most forceful reactions I got was from, a senator who was on the scene for almost five hours, I think, Tanya Wachowski.

And she was recording many of the interactions that she saw.

And when I spoke to her, you know, 12 hours later, she said she was appalled.

And what the actions that she saw, local and state troopers take in this case were deplorable.

And she said, I mean, she went so far as to say that she was ashamed of the actions of the state and local law enforcement officer.

It's a pretty bold and and, intense statement for a lawmaker to make.

And she was basically saying that because of what she saw was state troopers wearing masks, which is something that she feels extremely strongly about and has introduced bills to try to prevent, law enforcement officers across the state from wearing masks.

She just thinks that that's wildly inappropriate.

And then she shows up to a protest, and there's the state troopers all wearing masks.

Not all, but many of them wearing masks, balaclavas, and then the tactical teams, for sure.

They had masks on.

So she was upset about that.

Representative Kate Logan of Burlington was there as well, and she was there for several hours.

And she was, you know, feeling like she needed to witness.

That was a weird thing.

There was a lot of lawmakers who either were on the scene the whole time or went to the scene once they realized how significant an event this was turning into chaos around Hinsdale.

Thomas Chittenden, several others went.

But Kate Logan's point was, wait a minute.

If you're going to arrest people for violating the law as protesters, a civil disobedience, that's fine.

Like arrest them, take them away.

But to shove people to the ground, to knock people around, to drag people down stairs in order to get them out of the way is just not okay with her.

And she was really she was really upset by that whole, she called it.

I saw people physically assaulted by local and state, law enforcement officers.

And so that's not a phrase you want to hear, come out of a lawmaker's mouth.

He's got oversight over these.

Have we heard these?

Have we heard anything from Governor Phil Scott on this young.

Oh, there's a lengthy statement that he put out.

You guys are probably better able to summarize it, but effectively, he was pointing, I would say most of the blame toward ice and, toward the lack of communication that ice, shared with local law enforcement before they actually showing a statement from the governor right now, for those watching at home, that's his full statement.

And for the agitator and for the people who were agitating, I think I think that rubbed people the wrong way a bit.

Hearing those those there to agitate, I think, upset some protesters who felt, you know, they were within their rights to be there to hear that from the governor.

But it was really interesting that night, you know, not not long, about two hours after this whole thing ended, the South Burlington Police Department, State Police and Burlington Police Department all held a press conference at 930 that night.

And there were some really remarkable statements from especially, I think, the South Burlington chief.

William, brought, who said Rio, who said, you know, that he was appalled in a way, or really upset with how Ice had managed things and felt like they were put in this kind of impossible position where they the the ball was in motion and we had to step in and, and be there to protect our community.

And then we saw that in additional information that came out yesterday from state police in South Burlington, basically saying that Ice told us they were going to execute this warrant, and we negotiated with them to allow us to help facilitate the execution of that warrant.

So it wouldn't happen when school was letting out so that, you know, we could handle the crowd control aspects, me and some of that.

And, ice agents, you know, asked state police to intervene for the crowd control things like they did insert themselves into that.

And I think but I think, you know, protesters who are there are raising all these concerns about, you know, is that going too far?

Is that like stepping over the line that we have made with fair and impartial policing?

It's complicated because they had a criminal warrant and that meant, state police said that they didn't really have a choice.

You know, it's a criminal warrant.

We have to act on that.

And fair and impartial policing policy says we don't aid in civil immigration enforcement.

So there's that complication, I think I think we're going to be getting a lot more into whether or not like, what all happened and what are the policy implications of this, but it's hard to figure that out when we're just two days out and it's still unclear.

Everything that happened.

Well, and the other thing they indicated was that these departments have communicated what to do in just this situation.

They have planned for this in a way, because after Minneapolis, what was happening there?

You know, I think the leaders in Burlington in particular were worried about what happens if this comes here.

So there was this outreach to, leaders and different police departments, different elected officials to, to talk about how to plan in case something happened.

We are talking, of course, about the reaction to all this.

Everyone is still absorbing this.

But Liam, other cars, I need to get back to you on this question of who was actually detained.

Yeah, from this house.

It was not the individual they were originally looking for, right, right.

I was actually I was just going to bring up kind of an important point that we haven't gotten to yet is, is that exactly that there was a 24 year old man from Mexico that, had been entered the country illegally that Ice was trying to detain.

And this person wasn't in the house.

The person that they got the warrant to get into this house for wasn't there.

So the next morning, Thursday morning, federal prosecutors said this guy is wasn't in the house.

He's still at large.

The three people we detained were not wasn't that guy.

We understand that, two there were two women, Ecuadorian sisters who have asylum claims that were detained.

Here's a man from Honduras who was also detained.

And all of them, were detained in prison.

But they are attorneys have petitioned for them to be released and also have asked judges to issue orders that have been granted, requiring them not to be transferred out of state at this time, because that's a tactic that we've seen we've seen immigration authorities move people out of state.

So and in one of the federal judges went so far as to say, in one case, about one one of these women, that the basis for her detention is not clear, but it appears she's entitled to a prompt bail hearing.

And I think that's a really key point.

The basis for her detention is not clear.

I mean, the judge is saying pretty clearly like, what?

What's going on here?

This this individual was detained for, who knows why.

But she certainly isn't the person that was on the warrant that Ice had gotten.

Yeah.

There are so many moving parts to this.

And we're going to have to find out more in the days to come.

And, you know, Sasha, I want to do something that you were just touching on a moment here.

We have seen, video we showed you just at the top of the show here.

We have been getting a video that citizens have sent us, to Vermont public.

Very striking.

A lot of people were out there.

You saw this, too, Liam?

You were both there.

People with their phones who were shooting things.

We do.

I just want to take a moment before we turn to some other news here, to take a moment to really commend the work of Vermont's free press corps this week, the media outlets across the state were working tirelessly to bring accurate news information to the public.

I, for one, count myself lucky to live in a state like this where we have such dedicated journalists at this table.

Many of them, as we've seen, visual documentation is so critical in these situations.

I want to give a special shout out to the, many, often unseen photojournalists, and videographers who captured the events this week.

One of them is Zoe McDonald for Vermont Public, whose photos you saw during our discussion.

Daria Bishop for seven days, Glenn Russell for Vtdigger, and the reporters and videographers at Wcax and PTZ.

Thank you.

Because you're.

Yes, it's your job, but you're out there.

And, Sasha, you saw what was happening there.

It's chaotic.

There was tear gas going off.

There were those those, flash moments.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there, and to shoot that video, especially these days when we are just not sure what the reaction can be from federal officials.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it was, it was amazing to see kind of everyone out there and working to get the story and also working to stay safe themselves, keep each other safe.

And, you know, just be sure that we could, as you said, document, this, this huge news story that's kind of picking up traction even nationally at this point.

Kevin McCallum, what are you hearing from the state officials that you spoke with about next steps here?

Because there's going to be fallout from this, obviously.

Sure.

I know several lawmakers, wanted to have some testimony in their committees the following morning, and there was a pitch to actually have, Commissioner Jen Morrison in to talk about the incident that, as you can imagine, was a little difficult to pull off.

And it didn't happen.

But there was a debriefing that lawmakers had with, with Commissioner Morrison and, Governor Phil Scott to sort of lay out the basics of what was going on, what what they knew at that time, and what they had asked the lawmakers to do, was to just sit tight until the individual agencies were able to do their after action reports, get their facts straight, and the lawmakers were willing to wait for that to occur.

The ones that I spoke to, the only way to say they were willing to wait for that to take place, but that they made it very clear that they intend to hold joint hearings in the coming weeks to get to the bottom of of what happened, how it went south so quickly, and whether any policy changes need to happen in the future.

So stay tuned for that.

Can we expect to see other cities and towns around Vermont start to have preparedness plans?

Given what happened in South Burlington?

It's a great question.

I really don't have any sense of that right now.

Burlington.

Obviously, after what things happened in Minneapolis, had issued some plans and Mayor and Mobile Danny Stanek had put an executive order.

I haven't seen anyone else take that step or say they're going to take that step at this point.

But, next week it's possible.

You know, I'm sure we'll keep an eye out.

And if towns aren't already thinking about it, I'm sure they're thinking about it a lot more closely now.

You know, I go back to what happened, obviously here at we are still trying to absorb all this, but what happened in Minneapolis?

Sasha, to your point, before, had we not, you know, and that video, by the way, that was made national international was not even taken by professional photojournalists.

Those were people with their phones.

But if we had not had that video documentation, while we would have had to go on, was the word, the former DHS secretary who called that the person who was eventually killed, the domestic terrorist, which we know now to be completely false.

Absolutely.

And I think it's an interesting tactic of these organizing groups to migrant justice.

And they were encouraging everyone in the crowd to have their phone up and be recording.

And then at the end and at the end of the the event, they were collecting that footage.

They were encouraging people to send it to a certain email address so they had it all, you know, compiled somewhere because we're already hearing, Burlington has said there is at least one officer whose use of force is under review.

We've seen some video that seems to correspond with that.

Our Erin Calvin spoke with a young woman who was thrown down by a Burlington police officer and, is and we believe that's the case, that's that's under review right now.

And there is video of it.

So so these videos are their last forever.

And, so I think that's we're seeing this still stay in the news because there's so much footage and pictures to, look through.

You mentioned Daria Bishop by name.

She told me that night she took 3000 photos.

Some of that was, you know, I think snapping and keeping it down first.

But you know, that that speaks to the volume of photographic and video graphic material we're dealing with from that.

Well, we're going to follow up on this.

Obviously, this is not the last we're hearing on this topic.

We only have a couple minutes left in the program.

But, you know, amazingly, there is other news.

You know, guess what, folks?

There's a war on.

Kevin McCallum.

I know that you've been covering, the issue at the state House that has something to do with Defend the Guard, because Vermont National Guard members could be at risk, given the war with Iran.

What do you know about this particular bill?

What can you tell us quickly?

Right.

Well, as we as we know, Vermont guard members, deployed down in the action in Venezuela, and then they got redeployed to the Middle East, and they are flying their F-35s and bombing sites in, in Iran at the moment.

And that is obviously deeply disturbing to many people in the, in the state who don't agree with that action.

And so there's a bill circulating and there's the pressure campaign essentially in the state House to try to, get passage or at least a hearing on a bill that would require, the governor to sign off on any foreign deployment, and combat deployment of, the National Guard, because the National Guard can obviously be federalized, called up by the federal, by the Pentagon, essentially to to do the bidding of the white House or the Pentagon and when that happens, the state really has no say or no control, but they would like the state to be able to have some say on that in the future.

It raises a whole host of constitutional questions.

And so for that reason, the bill looks to be stuck and probably not moving forward.

But I appreciate the update on that, though.

You know, we have also some news coming up about, folks who are going to be seeking office.

We're going to be speaking a lot more about the, the Democrat, the first Democrat we know is challenging Governor Phil Scott this year.

Amanda is, you know, we'll talk more about her on the program next week.

We want to note that Allison Clarkson, is retiring, a long time, a member of the state House, two decades serving in the Vermont legislature, and the Democratic senator from Windsor is, planning not to run for reelection this fall.

So we do want to give you an update on that.

She lives in Woodstock and said she has plans to devote her time to reestablishing a culinary institute in Vermont and supporting children, involved in Vermont's court system.

Thank you for spending the bulk of the show on this very important story today.

About the Ice actions that happen in South Burlington.

I want to thank our panel, Kevin McCallum from Seven Days, Sasha Goldstein from Seven Days, as well.

And Liam Elder-Connors from Vermont Public.

Thank you so much all for your reporting.

Very much appreciate it.

I'm Mitch Wertlieb.

We'll be talking about these issues and much more.

We hope you'll join us next Friday for Vermont This Week.

In the meantime, stay safe, everyone, and thanks for watching.