Support for Donnybrook is provided in part by Design Aire Heating and Cooling.

Well, if you don't know what fair is, you can't make it.

>> Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.

>> Well, good evening.

I would say that Donnybrook is going to be the high point of your day, but then the people in Wisconsin would not like that very much.

Welcome to Donnybrook.

Alvin Reid sitting in for Charlie Brennan once again.

And we have a new face to my left, Rachel Zimmerman, KMOX, the Dave Glover Show.

How are you doing today?

>> I'm doing great.

Thanks for having me.

>> Oh, it's it's honor and pleasure having you.

Welcome to Donnybrook.

>> Thank you so much.

>> Jump right in there.

Okay.

>> All right.

Of course, Bill McClellen, founder of this show, St.

Louis Post Dispatch columnist Sarah Fenske from St.

Louis magazine online the 314 podcast and in my chair this Thursday is Joe Holleman from the St.

Louis Post Dispatch and I have to tell the story about Rachel.

I do a spot on Dave's show on Fridays at three o'clock.

And so I just come in there bopping, smile on my face because they have already fleshed out everything that has happened that entire week.

And so they've just been working hard all week and I just come in and do my little 20 minutes and smile and we have a good time.

So anyway, very enjoyable.

Listen to Dave's show.

Fantastic producer and a fantastic show.

>> Thank you, Alvin.

>> Well, Joe, Saturday, all heck was breaking loose on the uh streets of St.

Louis, various neighborhoods, hundreds of kids, uh some obviously adults, uh streets being blocked, just total mayhem.

And as we come into this weekend when the NCAA tournament is here, it seems like all of a sudden there's this impetus on maybe cracking down on some of this lawlessness in the streets.

Uh the mayor has a plan including a uh at least temporary curfew.

Too little, too late, where we going as this hot weekend is upon us.

Yeah, it it was what I found interesting about it was is it it struck me as the kind of uh statement that a government AI computer would crank out.

It was just this first of the first thing it hits is because of this problem and there were gunfire.

The police had to use you know uh racing strips the the nail.

I mean a bad situation and seemed like a lot of dangerous behavior.

And the first thing it mentions is is that the office of violence prevention will be available to connect kids with programs.

And I thought I I could have written it a lot shorter.

How about if you break the law we'll arrest you.

if you're a minor, you'll have to call your parents.

>> Instead, it kind of went on on this kind of I'll say weak.

It it didn't seem to have any teeth to it.

Like basically the point you want to get here is if you don't behave, you'll be arrested.

And it just kind of seemed to meander about.

I mean, one would hope they would crack down on that when you have what, eight games coming up or eight teams playing on this weekend and a lot of focus, national focus, uh will be on St.

Lewis, one would hope that none of this stuff occurs.

Uh, I just thought that the statement could have sounded a little more we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore.

>> Well, why have a curfew because the NCAA is in town and then the curfew goes away?

Why not do it every every weekend?

>> Every weekend, Elvin, we have one weekend.

It's 314 day.

Everybody's getting very excited.

We have a couple of incidents where it sounds like maybe we didn't get a police presence soon enough to break it up and things got a little bit out of control.

I am not ready to put down a citywide curfew for the young people going forward.

I think this is a good sort of like measure.

See what happens.

See if things are a little calmer this weekend.

If they're not, yeah, maybe we need to think about something more.

You know, I I I think that the intelligence, the police intelligence will be monitoring the internet because these flash mobs, I mean, they don't come out of nowhere.

I mean, the kids are already talking about let's get together here and get together there.

And I think the uh police will be really watching those websites or whatever the heck they are >> and uh be a little more proactive.

>> Yeah.

And I saw Chief Tracy making some comments about how they plan to do just that.

And then I also heard him making remarks, I believe today, where he was saying, "Hey, if we are bringing in your kid, your kid has violated this curfew.

You, the parent, are going to have to come get them.

We're not just going to release them again."

Which they have done in the past.

And also say the parents could face jail time.

Now, we know that happened a couple years ago, I think in July 4th, and it did sort of set this precedent where you just do it to a couple people, get a ton of headlines, and it really has a chilling effect.

Well, if you don't want the the curfew to extend throughout the entire summer, maybe we should just extend the consequences for the parents throughout the entire summer because I mean, I understand where you're coming from, Sarah.

It might seem like too much, but this was like the first warm weekend and it went that bad.

I mean, I I think we're going to have some problems unless we do something.

>> Well, and I think we there is a curfew >> for minors right now.

It's midnight on the weekend days, so it's not like there is no curfew.

Now it's 10 PM.

So what they've done was so the idea that miners could stay out all night long.

That's not the case.

The problem comes is is that those rules like expired plates like a million others.

They're no good if you don't enforce them.

You can you can have a million laws on the books.

If they're not enforced, it's like it's not on the books.

And that's kind of what I was hoping from the statement was we will have a zero tolerance policy this weekend on these rules.

You've been warned.

And I mean at some point you have to do that instead of like, hey, let's all sit down and reason about this.

No, you act like a knucklehead, you go to jail.

>> And I feel like that has been their message.

I think maybe your criticism is of the initial statement and that they've they've sharpened that since then is is at least what I'm hearing.

>> Well, yeah, the initial like one paragraph statement was really people are being called out of their throat and four day celebrations.

You got to issue a statement like that's bad timing.

I I would give them a day to catch up.

>> Well, I don't know.

Do you think those the initial statement was so tepid because they were worried like, hey, what if we can't crack down?

What if we don't have the manpower to enforce the law?

Like, you don't want to come out and say that and then not be able to follow through?

>> Well, then I would double down on the bluff then if you can't actually carry through on it, uh, you know, then then, you know, call it out.

But I I mean, but that's always the problem here is and I guess what hit me is the first the first part of that statement had to do with the Office of Violence Prevention and assigning kids to programs as if this problem was caused because no one could find a basketball league.

I mean, kids do.

You can have a million programs and kids are still going to hang out on the street corners and get into shenanigans.

It's just going to happen.

You can have all the programs you want.

that's not going to do anything at 11 o'clock or midnight or 1:00 in the morning is that you have these programs.

Just tell them you mess up, you go to jail.

But see how >> Rachel has a point though because they really can't follow up on this all the time.

We don't have enough police to have the police officers spending their time on the weekends essentially babysitting these kids, taking them from downtown to the local district station there.

I mean, >> I don't think that's babysitting anyone.

That's enforcing the law.

And what I if if the big law enforcement on the weekends is picking up kids for curfew, there's a lot more crimes going on, >> The biggest crimes going on in the city of St.

Louis last Saturday night was the crime that seemed to just fester and go on for hours and hours and hours with no one responding.

>> I'm not debating that.

And I it should never go on for hours and hours and hours.

And I just don't I I think the police are dropped the ball a little bit on this one.

I don't think they realized the seriousness of the consequence and didn't either didn't want to be bothered with it or whatever.

And I hear what you're saying about the intelligence, but isn't that somebody's job to do that anyway?

I mean, that's what I'm saying that I just don't see how this got so out of control before anyone took any action.

I I've mentioned this before here and have gotten funny looks, but when you're three, four, 500 police officers down from your authorized strength.

There's only so many bodies you can move around.

I mean, you know, it's the old clear about fingers in the dyke.

At some point, you're not trying to figure out how to plug all the holes.

You're figuring out which holes you're going to ignore.

And that's where the problem comes in because the situation doesn't start with all of a sudden there's a street race with 500 kids in 10 minutes.

It's something that builds up.

Well, when you have a depleted police force and all of a sudden you realize, hey, wait a minute, there's something going on and you're missing officers.

And that's the thing that people want to kind of talk around all these other reasons or say, well, the police could have done this, police could have done that.

If this police department was operating at anything near its authorized force, I would be absolutely with you and say, yeah, they could have done a lot better job, but there's just not enough bodies out there.

people want enforcement, but then apparently hiring police officers, raising the pay of police officers, these are apparently to some people terrible ideas.

Well, I I'm not one of >> Well, that's what I that's what I was trying to say, Joe, when you were saying that, you know, it's not B that picking them up is uh babysitting them, >> You know, I mean, there's just not enough people.

>> Okay.

So, they're not enough police officers, so anything goes in the city of St.

Louis.

No, but that's that's what happened Saturday.

That's we don't have enough police officers.

What happened Saturday was awful, Alvin.

And uh >> and where were the police?

And I'm just not buying there.

There aren't enough police.

The police are underpaid.

You're a police officer.

Do your job.

Is that too much to ask?

>> Well, it depends on where you're at.

I I I don't see how you can ignore if you say that, let's say 10 people can do the same work that 25 people used to do.

I It just doesn't make sense what you're saying there.

Is that well there's less people so work triple hard?

What?

I mean, yeah.

>> Be in three places at one time.

>> Well, that's newspaper working.

>> I don't even want to go down.

I don't.

But I I mean, we always look at the police are an easy group to blame, >> but there's not enough of them until that guy.

>> I really think that we blame police officers much on this show.

>> And I'm not saying that I >> I think that was blaming police officers >> No, I'm saying like I think the police officers do take some blame for what happened on Saturday.

I think there should have been a quicker, larger response.

How that happens, I don't know, but it's your job to be the police officer.

>> I think you're right on that.

>> So, we'll ask what uh Chief McCoy.

>> Chief McCoy, see what he says about it.

Uh it's uh just past March 15th, and we are getting pretty close to the one-year anniversary of the terrible tornado that hit us in May of last year.

And it was been announced now uh through the city and some agencies that uh complete tornado relief will probably be at least another year away.

Sarah, I'm thinking that there will never be complete tornado relief.

So why don't we just admit that to ourselves and to the community that was hit by the tornado?

>> Yeah, I reading over the post dispatch coverage of this meeting, I found myself thinking a bit of the same thing.

I think one of the things that many people have come to the conclusion about the city of St.

Louis in the last half decade is that the city has tried to do too much and so it has done things badly.

It's failed sort of the basic functions of city government.

And so the idea in this story that oh yeah well they're not going to just replace and repair all of these homes to get them back up to where they were before the tornado.

It's going to be that they're merely going to shore them up so they're not so dangerous.

I'm thinking, of course, I never thought the city was capable of going out there and rebuilding hundreds of homes.

I don't know how anybody could think that about the city of St.

Louis, who's ever lived in the city of St.

Louis.

That needs to be the job of an agency like FEMA when there is not private insurance, which we know has been a huge issue in the city of St.

Louis.

So, I think, yeah, this is something that we are going to have to accept, and I think we need to find a way to make sure people have housing, that they have a place to live, that they can afford.

That's a different question than can we rebuild an entire tornado.

>> You know, the crazy thing is about uh last weekend.

It looked like we were going to have another tornado.

You know, the TVs went uh uh weather watch and and they said it will be apparently following approximately the same path as the last one.

>> I didn't heard that.

I didn't hear that.

>> Oh, yeah.

Well, I was watching just because Selection Sunday was supposed to be on to see who's playing who.

And they had the good news was it would be a brief tornado >> and I thought well you know that's good news the best kind of tornado >> but that they had it following the same path you know right into Forest Park and then North St.

Louis and I thought we'll almost be fortunate if if it does >> instead of hitting another neighborhood >> or or maybe maybe the response would be well we really have to do something this time.

Not saying that the city hasn't been doing anything.

Well, FEMA, but it it's it was just it seems like when it happened, I I said that January of 2026 would be when some real decisions were made.

And do you feel like we're kind of kicking the can down the proverbial road here?

>> It Yes, it seems like it.

I I feel a little foolish because right after the tornado it was like the whole city has come together and we're putting our differences aside to tackle this and it's like yeah that lasted for a couple of >> years.

I don't know that you were wrong about that.

I think there has been an enormous amount of goodwill and people saying we want to try to find a way to solve this problem but unfortunately what we learned with the ARPA funds is having a giant pot of money and saying let's try to do something transformative.

It's not enough to have the money.

You need to have a really targeted plan that actually makes sense.

And I think so many people are kind of holding their breath going, "Okay, what could be this targeted plan?"

And waiting for someone to step up and say, "Here is the specific program that's really going to help people.

Here's what we can use the Rams money on."

Something like that.

We haven't yet figured out, I think, what that answer is, but I have to give the city of St.

Louis credit.

They haven't been running around spending that rams money on other stuff.

We are sitting on that.

Unlike St.

Louis County, which has been, hey, special election here, special election there.

Let's throw $30,000 to this department.

Sitting on that money trying to figure out what is the best way to make people whole.

I don't know that there's the answer is here yet.

>> And they want to I believe there's one proposal to spend 200 million of that Rams money to rebuild these homes.

>> Is that really where you want to see that money go?

quite honestly, and I know it's not something anybody wants to hear, but it's like, do you really want to spend the majority, the substantial part of that money to rebuild those homes?

And everybody talked about saving money.

I was all for saving the money.

And I said, if you're going to spend it one place, fix the water system.

A water system helps everybody.

Everybody wants >> Wasn't that like 180 million?

Like almost Yeah.

200 million.

>> Almost right on the barrel here.

>> So, I you've got these houses that weren't insured.

Okay.

So, people who had insurance, they're getting taken care of.

Do you want $200 million to go to that?

How's that going to work?

I mean, I just don't see that as being where that money should go or at least $200 million of it.

>> Well, I don't think we we want it to go to infrastructure.

It's kind of like if if you win the lottery, win $100,000, do you want to have a new uh sewer system or do you want a deck?

I mean I >> I want my government to be smarter than that.

>> I want the deck.

No, actually if my sewer's backed up, okay, if my sewers completely >> That's an emergency thing, Joe.

I'm >> But this is an emergency thing.

It's falling in every week.

There's a different sinkhole somewhere.

It's not like, oh boy, we could sure spruce up our water system.

We have the engineers going, it's dying.

It's dead.

Help us.

This is an emergency.

>> All right.

Well, I'll tell you what.

solve all our problems.

If the city were to merge back into St.

Louis County, we all agree, right?

Boom.

Boom.

Sam Page came up with that novel idea last week.

Uh his friends at the county council said like, "No, no way.

In fact, we want to have nothing to do with the city."

Progressive thinking, right, Bill?

>> Well, of course not.

You know, it it it really seems like people could try to be reasonable and say that there's certain things that the city and the county can cooperate with and save a little money like we do it with MSD.

There's others that I can't think of.

But the idea that the county council said we want no collaboration at all.

We don't want to save any money.

We would don't want anything to do with these people.

I thought, you know, this I I know that that we county council doesn't like Sam Page and this is Sam Paige unplugged talking about what we ought to do and God bless him for it, but I I wish the county council could have at least pretended to listen.

>> Yeah, Wendy and I thought there was some absolutely positive momentum.

And not that I'm totally for this, but I thought that I think this may lead to some real discussion.

It it led to a complete Berlin wall.

Well, I don't think anybody is looking to the St.

Louis County Council right now as being the thought leaders.

I do think there is some energy around this idea and we might see some of the smart adults in the room have conversations about what things make sense, what how, you know, if we reentered, what parts of government could become shared?

Are there ways to do this?

I think the county council kind of has this attitude of, yeah, we're flushed with cash and we don't want this broke city dragging us down.

And it's like, whoa, who's been running a surplus the last four years and who's actually broke?

I think they need a little bit of a >> As soon as the county runs out of the Rams money, then they'll say, "Hey, the city's the city.

They still have theirs."

>> Good folk, >> right?

You're kidding.

That's probably exactly how it's Do you guys think the city should be playing a little harder to get on this?

Cuz sometimes it feels like we're a little desperate.

We're like, "Do you guys want to?"

And the county's like, "No."

And I just feel like maybe we could be a little more subtle.

Well, but you see that the the the county executive threw it out there this time and that was at least coming from technically coming from the county, not the city, >> right?

>> But where is the city's response to all this?

I think if the city actually had a plan to say like, okay, here's the plan.

If we were to merge back into the county, this is what we would expect and this is what do you want from us?

>> That need be said.

>> I think city leaders are very much speaking in that vein.

I think maybe some of our aldermen are playing a little more hard to get like Rachel said here and that we understand we have a surplus right now.

We also have all our Rams money.

We see some things happening in the county where we're like they're not as attractive of a marriage candidate as they might think they are.

And so I think you see a lot of city residents who are like I love this idea.

But I think until we get into the nitty-gritty of what it would look like, you don't see city leaders pushing this.

I have not heard Cara Spencer coming out saying I echo Sam Pa's thoughts.

She's like I'm just running the city here.

Y'all get out of my way.

>> I I I think also is uh I agree about the county council.

I thought them just shutting the door on it >> was petty.

>> I also thought Sam Page throwing this out here when he's a lame duck was equally petty.

Where was he two years ago with these ideas?

Why wasn't he mentioning that?

This is something where you get to throw that big stone in the pond of water and then go, I'm out of here.

Um >> there but there does need to be a talk.

We talk about merger.

What about just the city re-entering the county?

>> No, that's what basically that's what >> so there there's different ways to do there's but there's different ways to do things.

So let's sit down and have a discussion about it, which I don't think the county council helped by simply saying no way.

And again, I also don't think Sam Page helped by saying this as >> I I I defend S Page on that.

I think that, you know, the great thing about not running for reelection is you don't have to worry about running for re-election.

and you can talk about what you think needs to be talked about.

So, so I don't blame Sam Page.

>> All right.

Speaking of talk, they did about 10 hours of it here recently on the data center and u there was a hearing also I guess today in regard to one in the city of St.

Louis.

Rachel, I know we've talked about data centers before, but they're back in the news.

And I will just throw out there three billion is not enough for me to still get with a plan to put one anywhere near the armory.

I mean, I think a lot of people agree with you, Alvin.

This is the kind of thing that scares people because I don't personally fully understand what goes on with a data center.

I have an okay grasp on it, but I think the average person just hears, "Wait, my electricity could go up.

Uh, it could limit my access to fresh water in my community.

In some cases, it could mess up the environment."

And then you're not even going to tell me who's moving in.

I'm not surprised at all that there's 10-hour meetings about this.

Of course, folks are going to be passionate.

It's it's a scary thing.

>> Were you at the 10-hour meeting there?

>> I managed to skip the 10-hour meeting one.

I love that it wrapped at 4:39 in the morning.

The Post Dispatch reporter was there.

Like, got to give him credit for that.

The one that was today, I guess, went on for five hours.

And our St.

Louis magazine reporters were like, "Yeah, you know, I think we've gotten the gist of this one.

We were not there by the bitter end."

I think Rachel's right.

There is something existential about how people feel about this.

They don't like that these data centers stand for something that seems to be coming to the way of life the way we've lived it for the last century.

And it's not just about people not wanting it in their backyard.

It's also about I do not want these machines to take over.

And so I think you're seeing citizens filibustering.

They're like, I am going to talk and I'm going to keep talking.

I'm going to bring up my neighbor to keep talking and you're going to have to listen to me before I suspect you're going to push this project through.

I'm at least going to make it painful for >> Yeah.

Joe, you were quoted in a Ryan Crawl story uh in regard to that.

>> I actually wrote that story.

>> Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

>> I know Ryan does most of the writing of St.

Magazine, but I'm chopped liver over here.

>> Sorry about that.

>> Well, yeah, I I I agree that there's a variety of concerns about it.

Environmental concerns, the whole AI sort of the existential concerns.

I do believe that to a good extent.

I'm not saying the only thing nothing's ever only this.

I still think of a lot of it has to do at I don't want it in my backyard and and I you know and I people go oh nima no it's it was true from reporters who covered these things 20 years before I started and filled me in on nimbies and it's still true today.

We are far less opposed to things the farther they are away from us.

So yes, I believe when you get all these things together, I guess my question has come about, are we not going to have data centers at all, it's my feeling is somewhere there's going to be a place like when they started riverboat gambling and they went to the poorest counties in the United States and they went, "We'll take it.

Somebody's going to take these data centers."

So I'm not sure.

It's like we're going to prevent these data centers from being built.

I don't think that's going to happen.

they're going to be built somewhere and there's going to be some community that's going to say, "My god, we need the money for all the jobs it'll create, even if it's only short-term."

Uh, you know, so I I think that's where the problem comes in.

Nobody's arguing about the need for the center to a great extent.

It's just what's it going to do to my area.

So, >> well, I just don't think, like I said, maybe the number isn't right.

Uh I had mentioned about oh independence the school district ra rose their hand and said like no we really need this money and by the way they're they're going to build one there and I think it was because people you know acquiesed to the money three billion is not enough to put one where the armory is and that's not a nimi that's more of a I just think we can do better than that now I don't I'm not putting us ahead of you know florestelle or where some of these other places are but I just feel like we could do better at that place >> in an entertainment district.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

>> Okay.

And meanwhile, as for the good people that were there at the uh 9 and a half hour meeting, I'm also >> I just don't think the fear of AI is driving this.

>> That's partially though, Alvin.

I mean, there's there's a science fiction element, you know, that to this.

machines taking over and there's all also unknown is who owns these things.

When when the uh people who are pushing for the data centers won't tell us who is going to operate the data center, people go, "Well, there's got to be a reason they don't want us to know."

Well, yeah.

I I I I get that there are a lot of unknowns and and >> I'm with that, but I just >> the money will ultimately talk and if you wanted to fix tornado alley up there, maybe you build one there and say like, "Hey, you got to fix all these houses or you got to fix whole sections >> And I'll agree with you.

I don't think the AI is the major driving concern because what I think about it is is that so all of these people who decided to go to the meeting to protest, >> first they went on Google to find out where the meeting was.

Then they emailed all their friends, you know.

So, we've already let technology in the door.

So, come on.

>> All right.

Let's read a letter to you.

>> When you all were talking about having to have a birth certificate to vote, you didn't take into consideration all the married women who also have to have copies of their marriage license.

That from Amanda Oliver of Rock Hill.

You can write to us at donnybrook care of Nine PBS 3655 Olive Street St.

Louis Missouri 63108.

Send an email to Donnybrook@ninepbs.org or tweet to donnybrookstl.

Give us a call on the comment line 314-51294.

And you can always catch us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts like the 314 podcasts.

Sarah, we're going to be talking about some polls when we come back on Last Call.

So hang in there with us.

9PBS, our YouTube channel.

It's right around the corner, April 16th.

DonnyBash at thesheldon.

They're going fast.

Get tickets.

9pbs.org/donnybash.

Rachel, thank you very much for hanging out with us on Donnybrook.

I'm sure we'll be seeing you again pretty soon.

>> And we'll see you guys next week on Donnybrook and Last Call.

Have a great one.

Go Jay-Hawks.

>> Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.