>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

180-DEGREE PIVOT.

PRESIDENT TRUMP TOUTS VERY GOOD TALKS WITH IRAN AND POSTPONES OBLITERATING ITS POWER PLANTS.

IS THIS DEESCALATION OR PLACATING THE MARKETS AS ENERGY PRICES SOAR?

I ASK MARC SHORT.

THEN THE ALLIED VIEW.

THE U.K., FRANCE, AND GERMANY SAY THEY'LL HELP OPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ BUT REFUSE TO GET INVOLVED MILITARILY.

FORMER GERMAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES JOINS ME ALSO AHEAD.

WHITE SUPREMACY IN DONALD TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE.

PRINCETON PROFESSOR SPEAKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT TRUMP'S WAR ON DEI.

>>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR , THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATIONS, PRESIDENT TRUMP POSTS THAT THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN HAVE HAD TALKS REGARDING A, QUOTE, COMPLETE AND TOTAL RESOLUTION OF OUR HOSTILITIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

HE SAYS HE'S POSTPONING MILITARY ACTION AGAINST MILITARY FACILITIES FOR THE NEXT FIVE DAYS.

HERE'S WHAT HE THEN TOLD REPORTERS.

>> WE HAVE HAD VERY, VERY STRONG TALKS.

WE'LL SEE WHERE THEY LEAD.

WE HAVE MAJOR POINTS OF AGREEMENT.

I WOULD SAY ALMOST ALL POINTS OF AGREEMENT.

PERHAPS THAT HASN'T BEEN CONVEYED.

THE COMMUNICATION, AS YOU KNOW, HAS BEEN BLOWN TO PIECES.

THEY'RE UNABLE TO TALK TO EACH OTHER.

BUT WE'VE HAD VERY STRONG TALKS.

MR.

WITKOFF AND MR.

KUSHNER HAD THEM.

THEY WENT, I WOULD SAY, PERFECTLY.

I WOULD SAY THAT IF THEY CARRY THROUGH WITH THAT, IT WILL END THAT PROBLEM, THAT CONFLICT.

AND I THINK IT'LL END IT VERY, VERY SUBSTANTIALLY.

WE'RE DOING A FIVE-DAY PERIOD.

WE'LL SEE HOW THAT GOES.

IF IT GOES WELL, WE'LL END UP IF NOT, WE'LL CONTINUE BOMBING OUR HEARTS OUT.

>> DISMISSING TRUMP'S CLAIMS AS AN ATTEMPT TO LOWER ENERGY PRICES, THE INTERNATIONAL ENERGY AGENCY WARNS THE GLOBAL ECONOMY IS FACING A MAJOR, MAJOR THREAT WORSE THAN THE 1970s OIL CRISIS AND THE GAS PRICE SURGE AFTER RUSSIA'S INVASION OF UKRAINE COMBINED.

THIS IS A TOTAL VAULTA FACI.

MEANTIME, ISRAEL STRIKES THE HEART OF TEHRAN AND CONTINUES ITS AIR CAMPAIGN AGAINST LEBANON, WHICH THE LEBANESE PRESIDENT CALLS A PRELUDE TO A GROUND INVASION AND A CLEAR VIOLATION.

MARC SHORT SERVED AS DIRECTOR OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS AT THE WHITE HOUSE DURING TRUMP'S FIRST TERM.

HE JOINS ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

TO TRY TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT WE ARE HEARING AND SEEING AND WHAT THE STRATEGY IS.

TO NOTE, YOU WERE ALSO CHIEF OF STAFF FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

SO WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIAN.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU, CAN YOU MAKE HEADS OR TAILS STRATEGICALLY OF ACTUALLY WHAT IS COMING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE?

WE'VE HAD ALL THESE SORT OF REASONS AND DIFFERING MORPHING RATIONALES FOR THE WAR, AND NOW ESCALATION, DEESCALATION, VERY GOOD TALKS, NO THERE AREN'T ANY TALKS.

IT'S HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

>> HA.

SURE IT IS.

AND I DO THINK THAT THE PRESIDENT ACTUALLY LIKES IT THAT WAY.

I THINK HE LIKES TO HOLD THE CARDS IN HIS HAND AND HE LIKES TO HAVE PEOPLE GUESSING.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TRANSFORM THE MIDDLE EAST AFTER 47 YEARS OF IRAN BEING THE GREATEST SPONSOR OF TERROR TO REALLY CHANGE THE SITUATION THERE.

I THINK THERE'S BEEN REALLY SUCCESSFUL MILITARY OPERATIONS.

CHRISTIAN, I ALSO THINK THAT THE REALITY IS THAT SIMILAR TO LIBERATION DAY ROUGHLY A YEAR AGO, I THINK THERE'S ALSO BEEN CONCERN IN BOTH THE EQUITY AND THE BOND MARKETS, PARTICULARLY WHEN TREASURIES ARE SPIKING THE WAY THEY WERE EARLY PRE-MARKET TO SAY THERE'S PROBABLY A CORRELATION BETWEEN THOSE.

EVEN THOUGH ENERGY PRICES ARE DOWN TODAY WITH THIS ANNOUNCEMENT, I THINK MOST ENERGY EXPERTS WILL TELL YOU THERE'S SO MUCH OIL THAT'S CAPTURED THERE IN THE STRAIT OR IS NOW OFFLINE IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAT HIGH ENERGY PRICES ARE GOING TO BE AN ISSUE FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

AS HERE DOMESTICALLY, OBVIOUSLY AFFORDABILITY IS BEING THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE AS YOU HEAD INTO MIDTERMS, THESE ARE ALL ESCALATING CHALLENGES FOR THE ADMINISTRATION AND REPUBLICANS.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT IS LOOKING FOR AN ABILITY TO DEESCALATE NOW BUT STILL LEAVE THE OPTION FOR ADDITIONAL MILITARY ENGAGEMENT FIVE DAYS FROM NOW.

>> LET ME TAKE A FEW OF THOSE ISSUES.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THE BOND MARKETS AND THE SOARING OIL PRICES.

AS YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT'S CRITICS ARE ALWAYS QUESTIONING HIM, INCLUDING THE CREDIBILITY OF THE LATEST POST ABOUT GREAT TALKS AND, YOU KNOW, ETC.

HERE'S DEMOCRATIC SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY.

THIS ISN'T A MESSAGE TO IRAN.

IT'S A PANICKY MESSAGE TO THE MARKETS.

NO WAR ESCALATION UNTIL MARKETS CLOSE ON FRIDAY.

YOUR RESPONSE?

>> LOOK, I THINK THAT THERE IS SOME REALITY THAT THE PRESIDENT FOLLOWS AND TRACKS MARKETS.

AND I THINK THAT, AGAIN, IT'S NOT JUST THE ENERGY PRICES, BUT IT WAS ALSO THE BOND MARKETS.

I THINK ONE OTHER POINT I'D MAKE IS I PROBABLY DON'T AGREE WITH MUCH OF THE DEMOCRATIC CRITICISM ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S ABILITY TO ENGAGE WITHOUT CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL.

I THINK THE CONSTITUTION GIVES THE BRANCH WIDE LATITUDE ON FOREIGN POLICY.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT REPORTS ISRAEL CONFIRMING THAT KUSHNER AND WITKOFF ARE HAVING CONVERSATIONS CONVERSATIONS, NOW IN THEORY WITH RESOLUTIONS IN IRAN, I THINK THERE'S A REASON YOU WANT PEOPLE TO BE SENATE CONFIRMED BECAUSE THEY CAN BE BROUGHT TO CONGRESS TO BE QUESTIONED ABOUT ANY DEALS THEY'RE MAKING.

HAVING TWO REAL ESTATE DEVELOPERS NOT PART OF THAT CERTAINLY CONCERNING.

>> THAT IS ABOUT AS DIPLOMATIC AN ANALYSIS OF THAT AS I'VE HEARD FROM SOMEBODY ON YOUR SIDE.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF ISSUES RAISED, AND I'M NOT DOING THIS AS A GOTCHA.

THESE ARE TWO INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT GLOBAL ISSUES.

THE THREAT TO EUROPE AND UKRAINE FROM RUSSIA AND THE THREAT TO THE WHOLE MIDDLE EAST FROM IRAN AND ALL THESE WARS, YOU KNOW, ISRAEL, EVERYWHERE.

SO I DO THINK YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT TO TALK ABOUT WHO SHOULD BE BEST POSITIONED TO ACTUALLY HAVE THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

AND I WOULD JUST ASK YOU, IF YOU WERE THE IRANIAN REGIME AND YOU WERE BEING ASKED TO NEGOTIATE AGAIN WITH THESE SAME PEOPLE, WHEN BOTH TIMES PREVIOUSLY THAT YOU DID IT, THE VERY NEXT DAY WHILE YOU THOUGHT NEGOTIATIONS WERE STILL ON, WAR IS STARTED AGAINST IN JUNE, THE 12-DAY WAR.

AND NOW THIS ONE.

JUST LOOK AT THE OTHER SIDE FOR A MINUTE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY'RE GOING TO ASK FOR?

TALK ABOUT TRANSACTIONAL.

THEY'RE GOING TO ASK FOR A LOT MORE.

>> CHRISTIAN, I DON'T THINK, I THINK THE REALITY IS IN PAST NEGOTIATIONS, THERE'S EVIDENCE IRAN HAS BROKEN THOSE DEALS BEHIND THE SCENES AS WELL.

I THINK PROBABLY THEY'RE LOOKING FOR WHO'S GOING TO GIVE ME THE QUICKEST AND EASIEST DEAL OUT OF THIS MILITARY BARRAGE AT THIS MOMENT.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S NECESSARILY IN THE BEST INTEREST OF AMERICA EITHER.

BUT IF I'M IN THEIR SHOES, YOU'RE ASKING THAT QUESTION, I DON'T THINK THEY'VE ACTUALLY BEEN THE MOST HONEST AND FAITHFUL NEGOTIATORS ACROSS THE POND THERE.

SO I WOULD IMAGINE THEY'D BE LOOKING TO SAY WHO'S GOING TO GIVE ME THE BEST DEAL TO END THIS QUICKLY AND WE CAN GO ABOUT OUR BUSINESS, PARTICULARLY IF THERE'S NOT REGIME CHANGE AS REQUESTED.

>> I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT HONESTY AND GOOD FAITH.

JUST SAYING THE FACTS.

AND YOU KNOW, THERE ARE PLENTY OF ANALYSTS WHO SAY, WELL YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK.

ISRAEL LAID OUT SOME RATIONALES.

SO THERE WAS THE NUCLEAR ISSUE, THE BALLISTIC MISSILE ISSUE, AND THE TREATMENT OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

YOU CAN VERY CREDIBLY CLAIM THAT THE NUCLEAR AND BALLISTIC MISSILE ISSUE HAS BEEN SEVERELY DEGRADED.

YOU CAN SEE THEY'RE USING A LOT OF MISSILES TO RETALIATE RIGHT NOW.

BUT THEY'VE MOVED AWAY FROM TALKING ABOUT REGIME CHANGE, FROM TALKING ABOUT THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

BECAUSE THERE WAS A PROMISE TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE THAT THEY WOULD BE LIBERATED.

THERE WAS A PROMISE.

>> I THINK THAT, UM, THE REALITY IS THAT PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS FAILED.

THERE WAS A GREEN REVOLUTION IN 2009.

THE IRANIAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TERRORIZED FOR 47 YEARS.

AND I THINK AMERICA SHOULD STAND WITH THEM.

I THINK YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT.

INITIALLY, THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME NOTION OF THAT.

THERE'S BEEN A SIGNIFICANT BACKING AWAY.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT, TO BE FAIR TO HIM, WHEN HE CAMPAIGNED IN 2024 PROMISED NO FOREIGN WARS BUT ALSO NO EFFORTS FOR REGIME CHANGE.

AS YOU'VE SEEN IN VENEZUELA, EVEN THOUGH MADURO WAS REPLACED, THE ADMINISTRATION CHOSE TO LEAVE IN PLACE THE SAME LEADERSHIP THAT HAD BEEN I THINK BRUTALIZING THE PEOPLE IN VENEZUELA AS WELL.

SO IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT HAS BEEN AS MUCH OF A PRIORITY FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION.

I THINK IT BEGS THE QUESTION IF THERE'S NOT REGIME CHANGE, WE SIMPLY ALLOW THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP IN IRAN TO, AS YOU SAY, REBUILD.

PARTICULARLY IF THEY CONTINUE TO GET RESOURCES AND SUPPORT FROM CHINA AND RUSSIA IN THE YEARS AHEAD.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, POLITICALLY IN THE UNITED STATES, HOW DO YOU VIEW BECAUSE THERE ARE PLENTY OF POLLS AND THERE'S FRACTURE REALLY IN TERMS OF REPUBLICANS.

OBVIOUSLY, THE WHOLE COUNTRY, THE MAJORITY IS AGAINST THE WAR.

SOME 60% OR SO.

BUT WE ALSO HEAR THAT MAJOR INFLUENCERS, FORMER CONGRESS PEOPLE, ETC.

ARE VERY MUCH AGAINST THIS, VERY MUCH BELIEVE THAT THE U.S., DONALD TRUMP IS BEING DRAGGED INTO THIS BY ISRAEL.

YOU SAW JOE KENT WHO WAS THE CHIEF ANTI-TERRORISM OFFICIAL RESIGN SAYING THE VERY SAME THING.

AND ACTUALLY, I HAD THE FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENNETT THIS PAST WEEK TELLING ME THERE WAS NO IMMINENT THREAT.

IT WAS JUST WE HAD TO GET TO THEM BEFORE THERE WAS AN IMMINENT THREAT.

MY QUESTION TO YOU IS WHERE IS HIS BASE ON THIS?

AND IS IT POLITICALLY COMPROMISING OR NOT?

>> I THINK THAT THE PRESIDENT'S BASE IS WITH HIM.

I THINK THE REALITY IS A LOT OF INFLUENCERS HAVE PROVEN THEY DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH INFLUENCE.

I THINK THE REALITY IS MOST OF MAGA IS REALLY SUPPORTIVE OF TRUMP PERSONALLY MORE SO THAN A SET OF ISSUES.

THAT'S WHY IT ENABLES HIM TO RECALIBRATE OR CHANGE HIS POSITION SO QUICKLY.

I THINK HE'S CONTINUED TO HAVE SIGNIFICANT SUPPORT BEHIND HIM, EVEN INSIDE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHO HAD EXPRESSED RESISTANCE TO FOREIGN WARS ARE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS.

I'M ALSO VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS MILITARY ENGAGEMENT.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT'S DONE THE RIGHT THING.

THEY COULD HAVE EXPLAINED TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT AMERICAN INTEREST ON THE FRONT END OF THIS FAR MORE CLEARLY BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE DOMESTICALLY REMAINS AFFORDABILITY.

I THINK REPUBLICANS HAVE SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGES HEADING INTO MIDTERMS WHEN I THINK THIS CURRENT TRADE AGENDA HAS CONTINUED TO ELEVATE PRICES FOR AMERICANS.

NOW ENERGY PRICES ARE SIGNIFICANTLY ELEVATED.

MANY ARE FORECASTING THEY'RE GOING TO REMAIN ELEVATED THROUGH THE SUMMER REGARDLESS IF THIS WRAPS UP IN THE NEXT FIVE DAYS.

AS YOU HEAD INTO THE FALL, I THINK THERE WILL BE SIGNIFICANT POLITICAL PRESSURE ON THE REPUBLICANS.

IT'S A QUESTION OF WELL, WHAT ABOUT MY POCKETBOOK?

THAT'S WHERE THERE'S SIGNIFICANT VULNERABILITY FOR REPUBLICANS.

>> IT'S ALWAYS THE ECONOMY, RIGHT?

HERE WE ARE AGAIN.

AND WHEN TRUMP CABINET SECRETARY, LIKE CHRIS WHITE SAY, AND ACTUALLY THE PRESIDENT HEGSETH AMERICANS NEED TO SUFFER SHORT-TERM PAIN FOR LONG- TERM GAIN.

THEY'VE STOPPED SAYING THAT, I MIGHT ADD, AS THE SHORT-TERM PAIN IS MASSIVELY PAINFUL.

HOW DOES THAT GO OTHER WITH VOTERS DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, AGAIN, I THINK THAT THERE CAN BE, I THINK VOTERS CAN TOLERATE THAT ON THE FRONT END IF IT'S EXPLAINED TO THEM.

BUT IF IT'S NOT ON THE FRONT END AND THEN IT'S ANTICIPATED OR EXPECTED THEY'RE JUST SUPPOSED TO SWALLOW THAT COST, I THINK THERE'S A POLITICAL RAMIFICATION FOR THAT.

ONE THING WE TALK ABOUT THE ENERGY PRICES, BUT ONE THING THAT'S NOT GETTING A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF COVERAGE IS THE COST OF FERTILIZER THAT'S RISEN 40-50% AND PROBABLY STILL GOING HIGHER BECAUSE ITS BASE COMPONENTS COME FROM NATURAL GAS.

AND AS YOU KNOW, THE UAE WAS ONE OF THE LARGEST EXPORTERS OF FERTILIZER TO THE UNITED STATES.

IF ANYONE'S BEEN HARMED THE MOST, IT'S THE FARMERS.

THE HEARTLAND IS GETTING HIT WITH FERTILIZER COSTS AND THAT'S A POLITICAL WEAPON AS WELCOMING INTO THIS FALL.

>> INDEED.

THE FERTILIZERS MEAN CROPS, WHICH MEANS THE PRICE OF FOOD, AND EVERYTHING AT THE GROCERY STORE.

AND THE WAY YOU, AGAIN, DELICATELY PUT THE TRADE AGENDA, THESE ARE THE MASSIVE TARIFFS.

YOU TALKED ABOUT LIBERATION DAY, WHICH YOU'RE CONFIRMING DID HIT AMERICANS IN THE POCKET.

AND ALSO AMERICAN FARMERS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, THOUGH, NOW GIVEN ALL OF THIS EXTRA LAYERS OF PAIN AND ECONOMIC PAIN THAT'S GONE ON, DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL ABIDE BY WHAT THE SUPREME COURT SAID?

THAT THESE ARE NOT CONSTITUTIONAL.

THEY SHOULD BE CONGRESS' PREROGATIVE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HE WILL DO?

>> I THINK THE PRESIDENT WILL CONTINUE TO USE A LOT OF DIFFERENT LEVERS THAT HE HAS ON THE TRADE AGENDA TO CONTINUE TO PUSH A VERY PROTECTIONIST WORLD VIEW THAT HE HAS.

AND SO HE'LL USE 232 AND 301 WHICH ALLOW INVESTIGATIONS TO THEN ASSERT UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES.

HE'S ALSO GOING TO USE A SECTION 122, WHICH I THINK HE'LL LOSE THAT LEGALLY TOO.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT'S POSTURE IS SO WHAT?

I'LL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY, IT'S GOING TO TAKE THEM MANY MONTHS TO FORM A CASE, TO WORK ITS WAY UP TO THE SUPREME COURT.

THEN WE'RE A YEAR, YEAR AND A HALF DOWN THE ROAD.

SOME OF IT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED UNDER PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS AS WELL.

SOMEBODY'S GOING TO PUSH AN ENVELOPE AND ALLOW THE COURTS TO PLAY OUT.

IN THE MEANTIME, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT BECAUSE HE'LL FEEL LIKE I HAVE THE LEVERS I WANT TO PUT THE POWER IN MY HANDS TO NEGOTIATE WITH FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

>> THAT'S ANOTHER GOOD QUESTION OR A GOOD SEGUE TO FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

THE PRESIDENT NEEDS HELP.

HE'S ACTUALLY CALLED NOW FOR HELP FROM NATO, FROM FROM ASIAN ALLIES AND ALL THE REST OF IT PARTICULARLY AROUND THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THEY'RE NOT RUSHING TO HELP BECAUSE THEIR INTERESTS ARE BEING HARMED BY THIS WAR.

AND BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO GET DRAGGED INTO A WAR THAT COULD SEE THEM BEING ATTACKED, YOU KNOW, AS COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

DO YOU THINK IT'S BEEN POSITIVE FOR THE UNITED STATES OR NEGATIVE FOR THE PRESIDENT TO HAVE SPENT THE ENTIRE YEAR REALLY DUMPING ON ALLIES EVERY TIME HE POSSIBLY CAN?

CALLING THEM NAMES IN PUBLIC, LIKE COWARDS OR THIS OR THAT.

WHEN REALLY THE STRENGTH OF AMERICA OVERSEAS ANYWAY HAS BEEN THE STRENGTH OF ITS ALLIANCES.

>> WELL, CHRISTIAN, I THINK AMERICA NEEDS TO LEAD THE FREE WORLD.

AND IF THE WE'RE NOT, I FEAR THAT THE FREE WORLD IS NOT BEING LED.

AND LOOK, I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE DIFFERENT PARTS OF THAT QUESTION.

I THINK IN ASIA, YOU'RE RIGHT.

IN MANY CASES, THEY IMPORT MOST OF THEIR ENERGY FROM THIS PART OF THE WORLD.

THEY HAVE A SELF-INTEREST IN AT THE SAME TIME, THE PRESIDENT HAS ASSESSED ENORMOUS TARIFFS ON SOUTH KOREA AND JAPAN WHO IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WE WANTED TO PARTNER WITH TO ISOLATE CHINA, VIEWING CHINA AS OUR NUMBER ONE ADVERSARY.

I THINK IN EUROPE, IT'S A DIFFERENT EQUATION WHERE I THINK THE PRESIDENT, YOU KNOW, LOOKS FOR NATO TO COME TO HIS SIDE IN THIS BATTLE.

AND I THINK THAT THEY SHOULD.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, OBVIOUSLY THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN VERY CRITICAL OF NATO AND HAS NOT BEEN WILLING TO TAKE THE SAME STANCE THAT NATO HAS WHEN RUSSIA'S ATTACKING EASTERN EUROPE.

SO I THINK IT'S KIND OF TWO DIFFERENT EQUATIONS HERE.

BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, THAT IT'S NOT BEEN THE MOST DIPLOMATIC APPROACH TO HOW CAN WE BE PARTNERING TOGETHER TO ISOLATE WHO ARE OUR TRUE ENEMIES.

IN MY MIND, CHINA AND RUSSIA.

>> MANY PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT BOTH OF THEM, AND MOST PARTICULARLY CHINA, ARE MAKING OUT LIKE BANDITS FROM THIS CURRENT SITUATION.

YOU SAY IT VERY DIPLOMATICALLY, BUT IT'S CLEAR YOU HAVE YOUR OWN SET OF IDEAS OF HOW TO CONDUCT DIPLOMACY AND OTHER SUCH THINGS.

SO FEW YOU WERE STILL IN THE WHITE HOUSE, HOW WOULD YOU ADVISE THE PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW TO GET OUT OF THIS BIND?

MAYBE YOU DON'T THINK IT'S A BIND BUT A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE DO.

>> WELL, AGAIN, I THINK THAT IRAN HAS POSED AN ENORMOUS CHALLENGE.

THEY'VE MURDERED MANY WESTERNERS, MANY AMERICANS, MANY INNOCENT AMERICANS.

SO I THINK THAT THIS HAS BEEN OVERDUE FOR AMERICA TO TAKE THIS ACTION AGAINST IRAN.

AND SO I APPLAUD THEM FOR THAT.

ON THE FRONT END, THERE COULD HAVE BEEN A BETTER CASE MADE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO EXPLAIN IT.

NOW THAT WE'RE HERE WHERE WE ARE, I THINK THAT YOU KNOW, WHAT I WORRY ABOUT IS HAVING GONE THIS FAR, AND THEN PULLING BACK.

BECAUSE AS I SAID AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR SHOW, IF YOU AYATOLLAH IN CHARGE, THEN LIKELIHOOD IS THEY'RE GOING TO GET REFUNDED BY CHINA AND BY RUSSIA, AND BE BASICALLY AN EVEN GREATER NEMESIS BECAUSE THEY'LL LOOK TO GET RETRIBUTION FOR THIS LATEST ROUND OF ATTACKS.

>> CAN I JUST END WITH SOMETHING THAT SHOCKED MANY, MANY PEOPLE?

AND THAT WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VERY UN-CHRISTIAN REACTION TO THE DEATH OF ROBERT MULLA.

HE DIED OF COMPLICATIONS OF PARKINSONS.

PREVIOUSLY HEADED THE FBI, WAS TASKED WITH INVESTIGATING RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS.

TRUMP SAID GOOD, I'M GLAD HE'S DEAD.

HE CAN NO LONGER HURT INNOCENT PEOPLE.

WHEN A PRESIDENT SAYS SOMETHING LIKE THAT, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> CHRISTIAN, I SERVED IN THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION, AND I BELIEVE THAT IN MANY CASES, THE RUSSIAN INVESTIGATION WAS A HOAX.

I THINK IT WAS HARMFUL TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

HAVING SAID THAT, THAT SORT OF RESPONSE IS TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.

ROBERT MUELLER WHETHER YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH HIM NOT JUST WAS HEAD OF FBI, HE WAS A MARINE WHO SERVED AMERICA IN BATTLE, WAS HONORED FOR HIS VALOR, RECEIVED A BRONZE STAR, AND WAS MARRIED FOR 60 YEARS.

THE MAN WAS AN HONORABLE MAN WHO SHOULD BE GIVEN THE RESPECT THAT HE DESERVED FOR HIS SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY.

>> I'M VERY GLAD TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT.

THANKS FOR YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON ALL THESE IMPORTANT ISSUES.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AMERICA'S EUROPEAN ALLIES ARE WELCOMING TRUMP'S DECISION TO DELAY DESTROYING IRAN'S POWER PLANTS.

THE GERMAN CHANCELLOR EXPRESSED CONCERNS ABOUT THE DANGERS AHEAD WHILE GERMANY, BRITAIN, FRANCE, AND OTHER ALLIES RESIST JOINING TRUMP AND ISRAEL'S WAR ON IRAN, THEY SAY THEY WILL TRY TO HELP FACILITATE THE SAFE PASSAGE OF COMMERCIAL VESSELS THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THE WORLD'S ATTENTION IS DISTRACTED FROM UKRAINE'S PLIGHT AGAINST RUSSIA WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN ENJOYING A REPRIEVE FROM SOME ENERGY SANCTIONS THAT FILL UP HIS OWN WAR CHEST.

WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE EUROPEAN SECURITY, AND HOW MUCH INFLUENCE DO THEY HAVE IN WARS THAT AFFECT THEM ALL?

WOLFGANG SERVED AS GERMAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES AND IS JOINING ME NOW FROM MUNICH TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> WELCOME.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIAN.

PLEASURE TO BE ON YOUR SHOW.

>> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT, YOU GUYS ARE VERY, VERY DEEPLY IMPACTED.

YOU DIDN'T JOIN THE WAR.

I KNOW YOU WEREN'T CONSULTED ABOUT IT.

AND NOW YOU'RE BEING ASKED TO HELP.

SQUARE ALL THOSE CIRCLES FOR US.

>> I THINK, CHRISTIAN, THE FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT CONCERN HERE IN BERLIN OR IN MUNICH WHERE I'M CURRENTLY SITTING WAS THAT THIS WAR AND THE CONSEQUENCES AND THE IMPLICATIONS OF THIS WAR WOULD DEFLECT, WOULD TAKE US AWAY FROM OUR MOST IMPORTANT CHALLENGE, WHICH IN OUR VIEW HAPPENS TO BE THE UKRAINE WAR.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER DURING THE IRAQ DEBATE 20 YEARS AGO WHEN I SERVED AS AMBASSADOR IN WASHINGTON.

I WROTE A PIECE IN THE WASHINGTON POST TITLED FIRST WARS FIRST, ARGUING THAT WE SHOULD NOW FOCUS ON AFGHANISTAN BEFORE WE TURN TO IRAQ.

AND I'M REALLY REMINDED OF THAT.

FOR US, THE CONCERN IS HUGE IN TERMS OF AMMUNITION, IN TERMS OF WEAPONS, IN TERMS OF POLITICAL ENERGY, IN TERMS OF A MILITARY SUPPORT.

BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE SEEN AS LESS CENTRAL TO CURRENT AMERICAN AMBITIONS, WHICH ARE NOW FOCUSED ON THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND THAT, FOR US, IS A MAJOR, MAJOR, MAJOR CONCERN.

>> I WANT TO JUST ASK YOU BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY FOR EUROPE, THE RUSSIAN INVASION, THE RUSSIAN WAR IS YOUR BIGGEST CONCERN.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO WILL SAY WHETHER THEY'RE AMERICAN, ISRAELI, WHETHER THEY'RE GULF-ARAB STATES, THAT IRAN WAS SUCH A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER THAT THEY HAD TO DO THIS?

EVEN AT THE EXPENSE OF DIVERTING ATTENTION AND PATRIOT MISSILES AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS FROM UKRAINE.

>> NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

LET ME TAKE YOU BACK 20 YEARS.

IT WAS NOT THE UNITED STATES.

IT WAS GERMANY, FRANCE, AND THE UNITED KINGDOM THAT STARTED IN 2003 TO FOCUS ON THE CHALLENGE OF IRANIAN NUCLEAR, YOU KNOW, EXPERIMENTS.

WE STARTED THIS PROCESS THEN, AND THE UNITED STATES JOINED THE EFFORT LATER.

AND THEN IN 2015 AFTER 12 YEARS OF NEGOTIATING, WE HAD THE FAMOUS JCPOA.

IN OTHER WORDS, WE RECOGNIZED AND WE CONTINUE TO RECOGNIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF FINDING A SOLUTION THAT WOULD ELIMINATE THE RISKS AND THE DANGERS ASSOCIATED WITH A NUCLEAR CAPACITY BY IRAN.

BUT QUITE FRANKLY, CHRISTIANE, I'VE BEEN HEARING RUMORS THAT JUST A COUPLE OF DAYS BEFORE THE MILITARY ACTIVITIES WERE THE UNITED STATES, IRAN WAS APPARENTLY WILLING, I HOPE THIS IS NOT AN UNFOUNDED RUMOR, IRAN WAS APPARENTLY WILLING TO ACTUALLY GIVE UP IN SOME SHAPE OR FORM THE 450 KILOS OF HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM.

IF THAT'S TRUE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORTH PURSUING THAT FURTHER RATHER THAN TAKING MILITARY ACTION AT THAT MOMENT WITHOUT.

AND THAT'S THE IMPORTANT POINT.

WITHOUT ANY EFFORT, OF BRINGING IN THE EUROPEANS.

AGAIN, YOU KNOW, SINCE 2003, WE'VE BEEN WORRYING ABOUT THIS IRANIAN CAPACITY.

WE WERE NOT CONSULTED.

WE WERE INFORMED AFTER THE FACT THAT THERE IS NOW A WAR GOING ON.

TO THIS DAY, WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY, I DON'T KNOW WHAT EXACTLY ARE THE WAR AIMS?

IT TO FINALLY GET RID OF THE NUCLEAR FACILITY AND BALLISTIC MISSILE PRODUCTION CAPACITY, OR WHAT IS IT?

FOR US IN EUROPE, WE NEED TO TAKE OUR PARLIAMENTS ALONG.

WE NEED TO EXPLAIN TO OUR CITIZENS WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THIS IS.

AND WE HAVE NOT REALLY BEEN BROUGHT ALONG.

THAT'S A HUGE POLITICAL PROBLEM FOR THE LEADERS OF EUROPEAN ALLIES OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> AND TO YOUR THINKING ABOUT WHAT IRAN MIGHT BE WILLING TO DO, THERE'S A VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE WRITTEN BY THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF OMAN WHO TALKS CHAPTER AND VERSUS ABOUT WHAT THEY ALMOST HAD REGARDING ENDING ENRICHMENT FOR MANY YEARS AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

AND THEN THE BOMBS STARTED FALLING.

HE WAS THE MEDIATOR OBVIOUSLY BETWEEN THE U.S.

AND IRAN JUST BEFORE THE WAR STARTED.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS BECAUSE YOU ARE, OBVIOUSLY EUROPE HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN RANGE OF IRAN'S INTERMEDIATE RANGE BALLISTIC MISSILES.

IRAN'S AMBASSADOR TO GERMANY HAS ASKED FOR AN EXPLANATION IF THE BASE AT RAMSTEIN HAD BEEN USED TO ATTACK IRAN.

DO YOU KNOW THE STATUS THERE, AND IS IT A WORRY FOR GERMANY?

>> NOT REALLY, NO.

>> OKAY.

>> I MEAN, THE RAMSTEIN AIR BASE HAS BEEN USED AND IS BEING USED BY THE U.S.

AIR FORCE, BY THE UNITED STATES TO TRANSPORT MILITARY AND OTHER EQUIPMENT TO OTHER PARTS IN THE WORLD.

BUT IT IS NOT, IT IS NOT, YOU KNOW THE LAUNCHING POINT FOR ATTACKS, INCLUDING ON IRAN.

SO I THINK THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS POINT.

>> OKAY.

>> I DON'T TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY.

>> OKAY.

SO WHAT ABOUT TRUMP WRITING AGAIN WITHOUT THE U.S., NATO IS HE SAID NOW THAT THE FIGHT IS MILITARILY WON, THIS HE SAID ON FRIDAY, BY THE WAY, THE FIGHT IS MILITARILY WON WITH VERY LITTLE DANGER TO THEM, THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT HIGH OIL PRICES THEY'RE FORCED TO PAY BUT DON'T WANT TO HELP OPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

A SIMPLE MILITARY MANEUVER THAT IS THE SINGLE REASON FOR THE HIGH OIL PRICES.

SO EASY FOR THEM TO DO WITH SO LITTLE RISK.

COWARDS.

AND WE WILL REMEMBER.

WHAT DOES THIS REVEAL TO YOU FINALLY ABOUT THE U.S.-EUROPE RELATIONSHIP RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAD A VERY POSITIVE NATO SUMMIT LAST YEAR WHERE THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPEAN ALLIES GOT TOGETHER.

WE COLLECTIVELY, EUROPEAN ALLIES COMMITTED OURSELVES TO SPEND A LOT MORE ON DEFENSE.

THAT'S HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK.

WHAT I FIND REGRETTABLE, QUITE FRANKLY, IS THE LANGUAGE WHICH PRESIDENT TRUMP USES IN THIS REGARD.

HE SPEAKS OF NATO AS IF NATO WERE SOME FOREIGN ORGANIZATION.

IN FACT, FROM MY VANTAGE POINT, DONALD TRUMP IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE LEAD NATION OF NATO.

I WOULD HOPE WHEN HE SPEAKS OF NATO, HE WOULD SPEAK OF WE AND US AND US TOGETHER, RATHER THAN THEM.

HE SPEAKS OF NATO AS IF IT WERE SOME KIND OF FOREIGN GROWN UP OF NATIONS WHICH HE LIKES TO CRITICIZE.

THAT'S NOT CORRECT, AND I'M NOT AWARE, CHRISTIANE, THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS ACTUALLY SEIZED THE NATO COUNCIL IN A MEANINGFUL, FORMAL WAY TO PRESENT THE CASE OF ATTACKING IRAN OR GOING TO WAR AGAINST IRAN IN AND WITH NATO.

IT HASN'T HAPPENED.

AND THIS IS WHY IT IS MY VIEW A LITTLE BIT UNFAIR TO CRITICIZE EUROPEAN ALLIES FOR NOT JUMPING UP IMMEDIATELY.

WE HAVE, AS YOU KNOW, WE HAVE IN THE MEANTIME COME UP WITH LANGUAGE WHICH SAYS YES, WE'RE READY TO HELP.

WE'RE WILLING TO HELP.

OF COURSE, NOT IN A WAR SITUATION.

IF THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T LIKE TO GO INTO THE GULF AT THIS MOMENT INTO THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ BECAUSE OF THE DANGERS ASSOCIATED WITH IT, THERE IS NO AMERICAN WARSHIP AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, WHY WOULD GERMAN OR FRENCH OR ITALIAN WARSHIPS SUPPOSED TO GO IN THERE RISKING THE LIVES OF THEIR CREWS AND RISKING BEING DRAWN INTO A WAR?

SO I THINK WE ARE ALL WILLING STATES, WORK WITH THE UNITED STATES, WORK WITH ISRAEL TO KEEP THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ OPEN.

BUT THERE NEEDS TO BE A CEASE- FIRE FIRST, AN END OF HOSTILITIES, OTHERWISE I DON'T SEE A REALISTIC OPPORTUNITY FOR EUROPEANS TO GET INTO THAT VERY, VERY DANGEROUS SPACE AT THE MOMENT.

>> CAN I ASK YOU TO CAST YOUR MIND BACK SOME 30 YEARS NOW?

THERE'S BEEN SOME TWEETING OR XING BETWEEN YOU AND A CORRESPONDENT REGARDING THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN IRAN AND BOSNIA AND KOSOVA.

THEY WERE SAYING AMERICA WENT IN AND FIXED IT AND THIS AND THAT.

WHY CAN'T IT HAPPEN NOW?

YOU SAID THE KEY POINT AND THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS THEN, WE HAD AN ESTABLISHED CONTACT GROUP THAT DEVELOPED AND EXECUTED POLICY TOGETHER.

YOU SAID I WAS THE GERMAN CHIEF NEGOTIATOR THEN.

TODAY ALLIES LEARN FROM THE INTERNET ABOUT DECISIONS TAKEN BY THEIR U.S.

PARTNER.

NOT A PROMISING METHOD.

YEAH.

SO COMMENT ON THAT.

BECAUSE I'M NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT THE ANNOUNCEMENT.

I'M TALKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TRY TO PUT HUMPTY DUMPTY BACK TOGETHER AS YOU DID IN KOSOVO AND BOSNIA.

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK WE AS ALLIES TOGETHER, WE WOULD BE IN MUCH BETTER SHAPE TOGETHER IF WE DID USE THIS WONDERFUL MODEL, WHICH WAS ACTUALLY INVENTED BY AMERICA.

IT WAS INVENTED DURING THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION BY EXTREMELY GIFTED DIPLOMATS LIKE RICHARD HOLBROOK AND OTHERS.

AND WE DEVELOPED THE POLICY TOGETHER.

WE EXECUTED THE POLICY TOGETHER, AND WE WERE IN THE SAME BOAT TOGETHER.

THEY WERE DIFFICULT TO MANAGE WITH DIFFERENT INTERESTS BY THE UNITED STATES AND CERTAIN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, BUT WE MANAGED TO DO THAT.

IN THE CURRENT ENVIRONMENT, NEITHER ON UKRAINE NOR ON GAZA NOR ON IRAN HAS THE UNITED STATES FELT IT WAS NECESSARY OR INTERESTING OR IMPORTANT TO BRING IN THEIR ALLIES.

I REMEMBER WATCHING THE CEREMONY WHERE THE, YOU KNOW, THE GAZA PEACE WAS CELEBRATED.

AND EUROPEAN LEADERS WERE BEING BROUGHT IN, SITTING IN THE THIRD ROW.

THEY WEREN'T EVEN INVITED TO SIGN THE DOCUMENT.

THEY WERE SIMPLY SITTING ON THE SIDELINES WATCHING THIS.

IF WE WANT TO HAVE AN ACTIVE, DYNAMIC ALLIANCE RELATIONSHIP, EUROPEANS NEED TO BE BROUGHT AND NOT ONLY SHARE, YOU KNOW, THE TASK OF GETTING RID OF THE DEBRIS BUT SHARING THE RESPONSIBILITY AND SHARING THE WAR AIMS AND THE STRATEGY.

AND THAT HASN'T HAPPENED.

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU THEN.

WHY DON'T YOU DEMAND IT?

I MEAN, YOU ARE THE ALLIANCE.

WHY DON'T YOU ALL GET TOGETHER LIKE YOU DID AFTER EUROPEAN LEADERS RUSHED TO WASHINGTON TO MAKE SURE TRUMP STAYED ON SIDE AS TO WHO'S THE VICTIM AND WHO'S THE AGGRESSOR IN THIS WAR?

WHY NOT NOW?

ALL YOUR INTERESTS ARE BEING HARMED, I HEAR, FROM EUROPEANS.

WHY DON'T EUROPEANS GO AS THE ALLIANCE AND TALK TO PRESIDENT TRUMP FACE TO FACE?

IN ONE MINUTE?

>> I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA.

I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA.

I CAN'T GIVE YOU THE ANSWER WHY A REPEAT PERFORMANCE HASN'T BEEN ORCHESTRATED YET.

MAYBE IT IS BEING CONSIDERED.

I THINK IT WOULD BE A GREAT IDEA TO DO A REPEAT, YOU KNOW, WHITE HOUSE OVAL OFFICE SESSION BETWEEN A BUNCH OF EUROPEAN LEADERS AND PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THAT WORKED WELL LAST SUMMER.

YOU'RE MAKING A PERFECT POINT.

I'D BE FULLY IN FAVOR OF THAT.

BUT OF COURSE SOMEBODY NEEDS TO START AN INITIATIVE.

I'LL BE HAPPY TO, UH, TO DISSEMINATE THIS IDEA WHEN I TALK TO MY EUROPEAN FRIENDS.

>> AND I'D BE HAPPY TO SHARE WITH YOU THE NAME OF THE FORMER EUROPEAN DIPLOMAT WHO SUGGESTED IT.

SO I'M GLAD IT RANG A BELL WITH YOU.

WOLFGANG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE.

>>> SINCE THE START OF HIS SECOND TERM, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SIGNED A NUMBER OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS TARGETING DEI POLICIES.

IT IS GENERALLY ERODING THE, QUOTE, MELTING POT IDENTITY THE U.S.

ONCE PRIDED ITSELF ON.

A PRINCETON PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDIES AND THE CO-FOUNDER OF BLACK CULTURE AND POLITICS MAGAZINE HAMMER AND HOPE, SHE DESCRIBES A WHITE SUPREMACY IN DONALD TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE AND JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE ROLLBACK OF CIVIL RIGHTS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR THE INVITATION TO BE HERE.

>> YOU WROTE AN INTERESTING PIECE.

WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT A THROUGH LINE OF NOT JUST THE RHETORIC BUT THE POLICIES OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, A LOT OF THE RHETORIC OF THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN SORT OF FOCUSING ON HOW WHITE AMERICANS ARE BEING DISADVANTAGED.

AND THAT WHITE AMERICANS ARE BEING SORT OF TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF.

THEY'RE BEING OVERLOOKED, SORT OF BYPASSED.

IN YOUR PIECE, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINT OUT, IS FOR EXAMPLE, THE FEDERAL JOB CUTS THAT TOOK PLACE AT THE EARLY STAGES OF THE SECOND TRUMP BLACK WOMEN WERE THE HARDEST HIT.

ANOTHER ESSAYIST WHO CONTRIBUTES TO YOUR MAGAZINE POINTED OUT BLACK WOMEN ARE THE DOMINANT GROUP THAT LOST JOBS DURING THAT WHOLE JOB-CUTTING INITIATIVE HEADED BY ELON MUSK.

SO THE FIRST QUESTION I HAD FOR YOU IS WHY IS THAT?

BLACK WOMEN COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SPECIFICALLY TARGETED.

I MEAN, IT'S ILLEGAL.

YOU CAN'T SAY WE'RE GOING TO FIRE ALL THE BLACK WOMEN.

SO HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S, OF COURSE, IMPERMISSIBLE IN THE LAW.

BUT I THINK THAT IT'S ALSO NOT A COINCIDENCE.

YOU KNOW, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOGE AT THE TIME TARGETED CERTAIN AGENCIES WITHIN THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE TO, UH, SORT OF TAKE THE HARSHEST BUDGET CUTS.

AND I DON'T REALLY THINK IT'S A COINCIDENCE THAT MANY OF THOSE AGENCIES AND ORGANIZATIONS WITHIN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WERE POPULATED BY BLACK WOMEN.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE INTERNAL MEMOS AND KIND OF BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN PEOPLE WITHIN THE AGENCIES, THAT THEY HAVE OFFERED AN EXPLANATION FOR AT LEAST PART OF THE REASON WHY THEY WERE HAVING THE JOB CUTS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND PART OF THOSE EXPLANATIONS ARTICULATED THROUGH THESE MEMOS WAS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR TOO LONG HAD BEEN ENGAGED IN EQUITY, ANTI-DISCRIMINATION HIRING, WHICH TO ME CAN BE READ AS KIND OF A CODE FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS HIRING BLACK PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT QUALIFIED FOR THESE POSITIONS.

AND SO I DO THINK THAT THERE'S SOME OVERLAP BETWEEN THAT IDEA THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN ENGAGED IN DISCRIMINATION OTHER ACTIONS THAT WERE TAKEN WITHIN FEDERAL AGENCIES, WHICH INCLUDED DISMANTLING THE WEBSITE THAT ALLOWS THE PUBLIC TO MONITOR WHO IS HIRED AND FIRED, WHO WORKS FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AS A WAY TO AT LEAST LOOK AT THE DISTRIBUTION OF RACE AND GENDER WITHIN THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE.

THAT WEBSITE WAS DISMANTLED.

WITHIN THESE MEMOS THAT I'M DESCRIBING, PEOPLE WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THE JOB CUTS SAID NOT TO MENTION THE RACE OR GENDER OF PEOPLE WHO WERE BEING LAID OFF.

SO I THINK THAT IT'S NOT LEGAL, BUT AS WE'VE SEEN IN OTHER ASPECTS OF UNDERTAKINGS BY THIS ADMINISTRATION, THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY AN IMPEDIMENT TO THEIR ACTIONS.

>> JUST TO GIVE THE DATA THAT YOU CITE IN YOUR PIECE, BLACK WOMEN LOST 318,000 JOBS IN THE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTORS BETWEEN FEBRUARY AND APRIL OF LAST YEAR.

THAT IS WHEN THIS JOB-CUTTING INITIATIVE WAS AT ITS MOST ROBUST.

THEY WERE THE ONLY MAJOR FEMALE DEMOGRAPHIC TO EXPERIENCE SIGNIFICANT JOB LOSSES DURING THAT PERIOD.

AND AS YOU POINTED OUT, THAT AFTER THE ACLU AND OTHER EMPLOYMENT LAWYERS ALLEGED THAT THE TRUMP LAYOFFS DISPROPORTIONATELY SINGLED OUT FEDERAL WORKERS WHO WERE NOT MALE OR WHITE, THE ADMINISTRATION TOOK DOWN THE WEBSITE TO MAKE IT HARDER TO ACTUALLY TRACK THIS.

ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES WHO ALSO WRITES FOR THE SAME JOURNAL IN WHICH YOU PUBLISHED THIS PIECE, NATALIE MOORE POINTED OUT BLACK WOMEN COMPRISE 6% OH OF THE OVERALL U.S.

LABOR FORCE AND 12% OF THE FEDERAL LABOR FORCE.

OF THE JOBS CUT IN 2025, SHE POINTED OUT BLACK WOMEN WERE A STUNNING 33% OF THOSE CUTS.

I WAS JUST CURIOUS WHEN YOU LOOKED INTO THESE NUMBERS YOURSELF, WHAT DID YOU THINK?

>> YEAH.

THE JOB CUTS THEMSELVES ARE SHOCKING.

ONE, JUST BECAUSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS THE REASON WHY AFRICAN AMERICANS IN PARTICULAR HAVE GRAVITATED TOWARD WORK WITHIN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS BECAUSE OF ANTI- DISCRIMINATION LAWS.

THAT THIS WAS KIND OF THE LAST FRONTIER WHERE THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF BLACK WORKERS WOULD BE PROTECTED.

AND TO SEE THAT JUST REALLY TORN UP IS SHOCKING.

AND EVEN WITHIN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, A LOT OF THESE LAYOFFS HAVE BEEN CONCENTRATED IN DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION FIELDS THAT HAVE BEEN DEVASTATED AS A RESULT OF THE KIND OF TRUMP DIRECTIVE TO THE THESE JOBS AND TO GET RID OF REALLY THE PEOPLE WHO POPULATE THEM.

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, IT POINTS TO A PARTICULAR WAY THAT IN THIS ADMINISTRATION THAT IT'S REALLY UPWARDLY MOBILE BLACK PEOPLE, BLACK PROFESSIONALS THAT HAVE BEEN IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

AND I THINK IN SOME WAYS, THE REASON FOR THAT IS BECAUSE IT FULFILLS A PART OF THE TRUMP NARRATIVE THAT WHITE WORKERS WHO MAY BE FACING UNEMPLOYMENT, ECONOMIC INSECURITY, AND DOWNWARD MOBILITY SHOULD BLAME BLACK PEOPLE FOR THAT.

AND SHOULD BLAME ALSO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR IN ITS KIND OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S RATIONALE, THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN DOING SOMETHING IMPROPER, HAS PLACED ITS THUMBS ON THE SCALES TO HELP BLACK PEOPLE AT THE THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS SOMEHOW CHOSEN TO ASSIST BLACK PEOPLE TO CREATE THIS UPWARD MOBILITY BY HIRING PEOPLE WHO DID NOT BELONG IN THESE JOBS.

AND THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SEES ITSELF AS CORRECTING THIS PROBLEM.

>> YOU MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS A VARIATION ON THE WELFARE QUEEN TROPE.

THIS NOBODY THAT THESE UNDESERVING POOR PEOPLE ARE GETTING STUFF FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

TELL US WHAT YOUR THESIS IS.

>> WELL, IT'S REALLY A SHIFT AWAY FROM THE WAY THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN PARTICULAR BUT ALSO IN A BIPARTISAN FASHION THAT THERE HAS BEEN A FOCUS ON BLACK POOR PEOPLE.

THAT THERE HAS BEEN A FIXATION WITH BLACK PEOPLE ALLEGEDLY USING UP TOO MUCH SOCIAL WELFARE.

THAT HAS BEEN A FOCAL POINT OF POLITICS FOR DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS FOR TWO GENERATIONS.

AND PART OF WHAT I'M ARGUING IN THIS ARTICLE IS THAT FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THE LAST DECADE OR THE LAST 15 YEARS, THAT THE BASE OF THE PARTY HAS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY TO NOW INCLUDE MANY MORE POOR WHITE PEOPLE, POOR WHITE PEOPLE WHO UTILIZE MEDICAID, POOR WHITE PEOPLE WHO UTILIZE FOOD STAMPS AND OTHER PARTS OF THE SOCIAL WELFARE STATE THAT HAVE REALLY COMPLICATED THE TYPICAL KIND OF SCAPEGOATING OF POOR PEOPLE ABUSING THE WELFARE SYSTEM AS A POLITICAL FOCAL POINT.

AND SO INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON THE PLIGHT OF THE POOR, THEY'VE NOW BEGUN TO FOCUS ON UPWARDLY MOBILE BLACK PEOPLE AS THE REAL PROBLEM.

AND THE ROLE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN ASSISTING THESE PEOPLE UP THE LADDER INTO STABLE JOBS, INTO STABLE WHILE AT THE SAME TIME THAT THERE HAS BEEN THIS PRONOUNCED DOWNWARD MOBILITY OF WHITE PEOPLE THAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED OVER THE LAST DECADE IN THE FRAMEWORK OF THE DEATHS BY DESPAIR LANGUAGE.

AND PART OF WHAT I'M TRYING TO ARGUE IS THAT IT'S UNTRUE.

AND THAT IF YOU LOOK AT ANY OF THE KIND OF SOCIAL MEASURES OF THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES, BLACK PEOPLE STILL COME OUT LOWER IN THE SOCIAL HIERARCHY THAN MOST WHITE PEOPLE.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE'S NOT A HARDSHIP AMONG WHITE PEOPLE.

JUST AS IT DOESN'T MEAN THERE HAS NOT BEEN AN EXPANSION OF THE BLACK MIDDLE CLASS.

AND OVER THE LAST TWO GENERATIONS, THE DEVELOPMENT OF A BLACK POLITICAL ELITE.

OR THE DEVELOPMENT OF A BLACK ECONOMIC ELITE.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SORT OF AVERAGE EXPERIENCE OF YOUR EVERYDAY WORKING CLASS OR MIDDLE CLASS BLACK PERSON, THERE IS NOT A SINGLE INDUSTRY IN WHICH BLACK PEOPLE ARE DOING BETTER THAN WHITE PEOPLE.

WITHIN THE HOUSING MARKET, BLACK HOUSING IS VALUED AT LESS THAN IT IS FOR WHITE PEOPLE.

AND EVERY STEP ALONG THE WAY WITHIN THESE SOCIAL BAROMETERS, BLACK PEOPLE COME OUT WORSE.

SO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT REALLY IN TRYING TO PROMOTE THIS ARGUMENT IS ENGAGING IN DISHONESTY REALLY.

>> I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR THIS ADMINISTRATION.

>> RIGHT.

>> THE PRESIDENT HAS NOT MADE IT A SECRET THAT HE LOOKS WITH DISDAIN UPON THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.

AND ALSO HAS ENGAGED IN JUST SORT OF CULTURAL LANGUAGE THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE SORT OF DISCOURSE THAT PEOPLE FIND OFFENSIVE.

I DON'T NEED TO REMIND PEOPLE OF THAT SOCIAL MEDIA POST THAT HE RE, THAT HE SHARED WITH THE OBAMAS FACES SUPERIMPOSED UPON IMAGES OF MONKEYS.

HIS SPOKESMAN TRIED TO ARGUE THAT THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE DEPICTED AS ZOO ANIMALS, BUT I THINK FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS AND MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE PAYING ATTENTION, THAT OBVIOUSLY EVOKES SOME VERY SPECIFIC STEREOTYPES.

>> IT'S MUCH DEEPER THAN THAT.

I THINK WE CAN SAY THAT, UH, THIS ADMINISTRATION REALLY HAS EMBRACED THE POLITICS OF WHITE SUPREMACY IN A VERY OPEN WAY.

PROBABLY IN WAYS THAT ARE UNHEARD OF IN THE MODERN PRESIDENCY.

>> SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

BECAUSE SUPREMACY, BECAUSE WHEN I READ YOUR PIECE TO INDICATE THEY'VE EMBRACED A POLITICS OF WHITE VICTIMIZATION.

IS THAT THE SAME THING?

THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEING VICTIMIZED BY UNQUALIFIED, UNFAIR SYSTEMS THAT ARE PUTTING THEM AT A DISADVANTAGE.

SO WHY DO YOU SAY IT'S WHITE SUPREMACY?

>> IN THEIR CALCULATION, THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE SUPERIOR.

I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT NOT JUST THE TREATMENT OR THE DISCOURSE AROUND BLACK PEOPLE, BUT THE IDEA THAT HAITIAN IMMIGRANTS ARE EATING CATS AND DOGS IN SPRINGFIELD, OHIO.

THAT SOMALIAN AMERICANS OR SOMALIAN REFUGEES CAN JUST BE DISMISSED AS A FRAUDULENT POPULATION.

THAT THE ENTIRE GROUP ENGAGES IN FRAUDULENT PRACTICES.

THAT THE ADMINISTRATION ON THE ONE HAND SAYS THAT WE SHOULD LOOK TO INDIVIDUAL MERIT AS OPPOSED TO GROUP RIGHTS.

AND YET CONSTANTLY DISPARAGES GROUPS, GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

WHETHER THEY'RE HAITIAN IMMIGRANTS, WHETHER THEY'RE THEY ARE MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS OR MEXICAN-AMERICANS OR BLACK AMERICANS.

SO I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE RHETORIC OF THE ADMINISTRATION, JD VANCE GOES TO TURNING POINT USA, AND SAYS THAT WHITE AMERICANS NO LONGER HAVE TO APOLOGIZE FOR BEING WHITE IN THE UNITED STATES.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE RHETORIC AND THE WAYS THAT CERTAIN GROUPS ARE BEING ATTACKED, IF YOU LOOK AT THE WAY THAT SOME OF THE FEDERAL AGENCIES ARE PROMOTING THE WORK OF THEIR AGENCIES ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY CONSTANTLY INVOKING THE TROPES AND IMAGERY OF WHITE SUPREMACY.

THAT THERE IS AN IDEA THAT IS MOTIVATING SOME PART.

I DON'T THINK THE ENTIRE AGENDA BUT SOME PART OF IT THAT BLACK PEOPLE AND OTHER NON-WHITE PEOPLE ARE INFERIOR TO WHITE PEOPLE.

AND THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH WHAT THEY BELIEVE HAS BEEN AT LEAST SINCE THE SIGNING OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT IN 1964 IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S ROLE IN PROMOTING WHAT THEY BELIEVE TO BE AN INFERIOR GROUP OF PEOPLE.

>> HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE FACT, THOUGH, THAT THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK WOMEN WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP HAS INCREASED IN EVERY SINGLE ELECTION IN WHICH HE HAS RUN.

IT WENT FROM 6%, MAYBE EVEN LESS IN 2016 TO 10% IN 2024.

HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT PART OF THAT, AND I THINK THIS IS PART OF THE ATTRACTION TO TRUMP FOR SOME PEOPLE.

NOT IN TOTALITY.

BUT I THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN A REAL INABILITY OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO PROMOTE POLICIES OVER A PERIOD OF TIME THAT HAVE REALLY CHANGED FOR THE BETTER THE LIVELIHOODS OF ORDINARY AMERICANS.

AND I THINK THAT INCLUDES BLACK I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT DEVELOPED DURING THE PRESIDENCY OF BARACK OBAMA, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAD SUCH HIGH EXPECTATIONS THAT THINGS WOULD BE DIFFERENT, THAT THINGS WOULD CHANGE.

AND YET, THERE WAS THIS NAGGING, GNAWING CONTINUITY.

I THINK THAT WAS THE SAME THING WITH THE PRESIDENCY OF JOE BIDEN, WHICH IS NOT TO SAY THAT THE BIDEN PRESIDENCY DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO THINGS AND ENACT THINGS, BUT IT WASN'T ENOUGH RELATIVE TO THE SCALE OF CRISIS THAT PEOPLE WERE EXPERIENCING IN THEIR LIVES.

AND THROUGHOUT THIS 10 OR 15- YEAR PERIOD, IT IS REALLY WORKING CLASS AND POOR AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO EXPERIENCE THE BRUNT OF THESE CRISES.

THE LACK OF CHANGE IN PEOPLE'S DAY-TO-DAY REALITY HAVE OPENED A SMALL GROUP OF THEM UP TO LOOKING AT DIFFERENT POLITICAL ALTERNATIVES.

AND I THINK THAT HAS MEANT LOOKING AT EVEN DONALD TRUMP WHO PLAYS WITH THE GRIEVANCES OF MANY PEOPLE AND MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS.

>> YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT THE REPUBLICANS ON THE ONE HAND HAVE TOLERATED AND ARE NOW ENCOURAGING A VERY RACIST, DIVISIVE SORT OF POLITICS.

BUT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT SUCCESSFULLY ANSWERED IT WITH POLICY.

WHERE DOES THIS GO NEXT?

>> I THINK IT OPENS UP THE QUESTION OF POLITICAL MOVEMENTS IN A MUCH MORE URGENT WAY.

AND I THINK THAT WE'VE SEEN RECENTLY WITHIN THE LAST DECADE THE WAY THAT SOCIAL MOVEMENTS HAVE A WAY OF INTRODUCING NEW POLITICAL ISSUES THAT THE DOMINANT POLITICAL PARTIES WOULD LIKE TO IGNORE.

WHETHER THAT IS QUESTIONS ABOUT POLICE REFORM, WHETHER IT'S QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW PUBLIC MONEYS AND BUDGETS ARE USED, I THINK SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT CAME TO THE FRONT IN PROTEST MOVEMENT OF 2020, WHICH WAS ABOUT POLICING ON THE ONE HAND BUT IT WAS ALSO ABOUT THE DEEPER ROOTS OF RACISM AND INEQUALITY IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT IT WAS ALSO ABOUT THE ECONOMIC UNFAIRNESS THAT MEANT SOME PEOPLE WERE MORE VULNERABLE DURING COVID TO DISEASE BECAUSE THEY WERE DEEMED ESSENTIAL WORKERS EVEN THOUGH THEY WEREN'T PAID AS SUCH COMPARED TO OTHERS.

THOSE ISSUES CAME UP TO THE SURFACE PRECISELY BECAUSE THERE WERE POLITICAL ORGANIZING AND SOCIAL MOVEMENTS AFOOT ON THE GROUND THAT MADE THEM POLITICAL ISSUES.

AND I THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE THAT REALLY BECOMES THE POLITICAL ALTERNATIVE FOR PEOPLE WHO DO FEEL STUCK, WHO FEEL LIKE IT'S THE SAME KIND OF RECYCLED POLITICS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND WHO ARE DESPERATE IN NEED OF AN ALTERNATIVE THAT THE POLITICAL PARTIES SEEM INCAPABLE OF CREATING.

TO WHAT EXTENT DOES THAT THEN CREATE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR POLITICAL ORGANIZING AND SOCIAL MOVEMENTS TO RISE UP INTO THAT GAP AND TO BEGIN TO PROVIDE THAT KIND OF ALTERNATIVE?

>> PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST FAMOUS AND ENIGMATIC ARTISTS HAS BEEN UNMASKED.

BANKSY WHOSE WORK YOU'VE LIKELY SEEN POP UP OVERNIGHT ON STREET CORNERS AND BUILDINGS ALL OVER THE WORLD HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS A BRITISH MAN NAMED ROBERT GUNNINGHAM WHO CHANGED HIS NAME TO DAVID JONES.

IT WAS HIS IMMIGRATION RECORDS ENTERING UKRAINE A FEW YEARS AGO THAT APPARENTLY GAVE HIM AWAY.

A SERIES OF BANKSY MURALS APPEARED THERE THE SAME TIME.

BANKSY HAS NEITHER CONFIRMED OR DENIED THIS CLAIM.

HIS ANONYMITY IS HIS BRAND, SO WHAT'S THE COST OF LOSING IT?

BANKSY'S LONG-TIME LAWYER SAID THE PSEUDONYM ALLOWED FOR HIM TO FREELY SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER WITHOUT FEAR OR RETALIATION OR CENSORSHIP.

WAS IT REALLY WORTH BLOWING HIS COVER IF, INDEED, IT ACTUALLY HAS BEEN?

THE MYSTERY CONTINUES.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.COM/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON