>> Reilly: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I'M ADAM REILLY, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

THE STATE IS RACING AHEAD IN VACCINATIONS, BUT, AS COVID CASES START TO TICK BACK UP, ARE WE MOVING FAST ENOUGH?

THEN, LATER, WE'VE LEGALIZED MARIJUANA NOW, WHY NOT HALLUCINOGENIC MUSHROOMS, TOO?

THAT'S A QUESTION SOME LOCAL LAWMAKERS ARE NOW ASKING.

THE DIRECTORS OF M.G.H's NEW CENTER FOR THE NEUROSCIENCE OF PSYCHEDELICS AND McLEAN HOSPITAL'S LABORATORY OF ADDCTION NEUROBIOLOGY JOIN ME WITH SOME ANSWERS.

AND FINALLY, REMEMBERING SOME OF THE MANY WE'VE LOST TO COVID.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Reilly: THE STATE IS DIRECTING $100 MILLION IN ADDITIONAL AIDE TO FOUR COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN HIT HARD BY THE PANDEMIC BUT STILL ENDED UP WITH MUCH LESS FEDERAL HELP IN THE LATEST COVID RELIEF BILL.

TODAY, GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER ANNOUNCED THE MONEY WILL GO TO CHELSEA, EVERETT, METHUEN, AND RANDOLPH, WHICH ALL GOT SIGNIFICANTLY LESS IN FUNDING THAN COMMUNITIES LIKE NEWTON, CAMBRIDGE, AND BROOKLINE.

>> WE BELIEVE IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT THESE COMMUNITIES GET THE RESOURCES THEY NEED TO CONTINUE TO RECOVER FROM THE DEVASTATING EFFECTS OF THE PANDEMIC.

>> Reilly: THE GOVERNOR ALSO ANNOUNCED THE STATE IS LAUNCHING A NEW PROGRAM TO VACCINATE HOMEBOUND RESIDENTS USING A NEW INFLUX OF SINGLE-SHOT JOHNSON & JOHNSON VACCINE DOSES.

BAKER SAID TODAY, CLOSE TO ONE IN THREE PEOPLE IN THE STATE HAVE GOTTEN AT LEAST ONE DOSE OF A COVID VACCINE.

HIGHER, WITH MORE THAN 80% AT LEAST PARTIALLY VACCINATED.

BUT AS VACCINATIONS TICK UP SO ARE CASES OF THE VIRUS, INCLUDING THE NEW, MORE CONTAGIOUS VARIANTS.

>> WE'RE NOW SEEING MORE POSITIVE CASES FOR A DIFFERENT AGE DEMOGRAPHIC: PEOPLE UNDER 30.

WHILE THESE RESIDENTS ARE FAR LESS LIKELY TO BE HOSPITALIZED, IT REMAINS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT FOR ALL RESIDENTS-- ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE-- TO PRACTICE PREVENTION STRATEGIES AND NOT LET DOWN THEIR GUARD.

WE URGE THE PUBLIC TO CONTINUE TO BE VIGILANT WITH RESPECT TO THE VIRUS.

VACCINES ARE HERE, AND THAT'S A GREAT THING, BUT WE'RE STILL IN A RACE AGAINST TIME.

>> Reilly: AND AS WE RACE TO VACCINATE FASTER THAN THE VIRUS CAN MUTATE, A NEW REPORT PUBLISHED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES IS GIVING US A CLEARER LOOK AT JUST HOW HARD THE PAST YEAR-PLUS OF THE PANDEMIC HAS BEEN ON THE NATION'S HOSPITALS, WITH ONE NURSING DIRECTOR CALLING FOR "LONG-TERM SOLUTIONS TO ADDRESS STAFF FATIGUE, COMPASSION FATIGUE, AND POSSIBLE P.T.S.D., SO THAT WE CAN HELP OUR STAFF BE ABLE TO CARE FOR THEMSELVES, THEIR FAMILIES AND OUR PATIENTS."

I'M JOINED BY BARRY BLOOM, A PROFESSOR OF IMMUNOLOGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASE AT HARVARD'S CHAN SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, WHO'S ALSO SERVED AS AN ADVISOR TO THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, THE N.I.H., THE C.D.C.

AND THE CARTER WHITE HOUSE.

ALSO SANDY BLISS NELSON, AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST AT MASS GENERAL HOSPITAL AND AN ASSISTANT PROFESSOR AT HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: BARRY LET ME START WITH YOU.

I WOULD LIKE TO GET YOUR TAKE OF WHERE WE ARE AT HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS IN TERMS OF THE PANDEMIC'S RESOLUTION.

ON THE WUNG HAND, THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE GOING WELL, VACCINATION RATES, ALTHOUGH SOME LAG BEHIND, THE STATE IS SENDING A MESSAGE, KIDS ARE GOING BACK TO SCHOOL FOR IN-PERSON LEARNING, AND A VISUAL BREAK DOWN OF CASES IN MASSACHUSETTS, WE ARE MUCH BETTER OFF THAN WE WERE THIS PAST WINTER BUT WE AREN'T AS GOOD SHAPE AS THIS LAST SUMMER AND AFTER PLATEAUING THE CASES SEEM TO BE SPIKING AGAIN.

SO DO THINK WE'RE GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION RIGHT NOW OR THE RIGHT DIRECTION?

>> I WOULD QUOTE MY FRIEND TONY FAUCI, THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES, HE BECAME OF SAID WE ARE AT A CORNER.

AND WE EITHER ROUND THE CORNER AND MOVE INTO SUMMER, WARMER WEATHER, MORE PEOPLE OUTSIDE, MORE PEOPLE VACCINATED, PEOPLE STILL REMAINING WITH MASKS, AND DOING GOOD PUBLIC HEALTH CONTROL, AND AS THE VACCINE SPREAD, THE NUMBERS WILL GO DOWN.

IF WE DO WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN MIAMI AND BELIEVE IT'S ALL OVER, WE WILL NOT ROUND THAT CORNER.

AND LOOMING IN THE FUTURE, IF WE DON'T ROUND THAT CORNER, ARE NEW VARIANT STRAINS THAT SEEM TO BE MORE INFECTIOUS.

SO IT WILL BE HARDER LATER THAN IT IS NOW.

>> Reilly: SANDY WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON OUR MOMENT?

>> YOU KNOW I THINK I REALLY AGREE ENTIRELY AND I CERTAINLY WOULD NEVER DISAGREE WITH THE EMINENT DR. FAUCI.

I WOULD CALL IT ALSO A BIT OF AN INFLECTION POINT.

AND I THINK THE QUESTION ABOUT ARE WE ON THE RIGHT DIRECTION OR THE WRONG DIRECTION REALLY DEPENDS ON WHAT THE DESTINATION IS.

AND IF THE DESTINATION IS FEWER DEATHS BY HOSPITALIZATIONS AND FEWER DEATHS I DO THINK WE ARE ON THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

WE ARE VACCINATING OUR MOST VULNERABLE INDIVIDUALS AND WE ARE PREVENTING HOSPITALIZATION AND DEATH AND THAT I THINK IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FIRST GOAL.

BUT IF OUR DESTINATION IS NORMALCY AND GETTING BACK TO A LIFE WHERE WE CAN GO TO RESTAURANTS AND WE CAN HAVE DINNER WITH OUR FRIENDS AND WE CAN SOCIALIZE INDOORS I'M NOT SURE WE'RE REALLY MAKING A BIG DENT IN THAT EFFORT.

I THINK WE HAVE A LOT LONGER TO GO TO GET TO THAT POINT.

>> Reilly: I'D LOVE TO HEAR FROM BOTH OF YOU.

ARE THERE STEPS THAT HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS WE EITHER SHOULD BE TAKING, THAT WE ARE NOT, OR STEPS THAT HAVE BEEN TAKEN, THAT YOU THINK SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN TAKEN?

>> I COULD START WITH THAT, AND I HOPE THIS SEASONALITY TOO TECHIE AN ANSWER.

WE RELY ON A REALLY SENSITIVE AND ACCURATE TEST.

THAT IS EXPENSIVE, HARD TO DO, AND THE TESTING NUMBERS HAVE NOT GONE UP TO THE EXTENT THAT WE ACTUALLY CAN FOLLOW EVERY NOOK AND CRANNY OF MASSACHUSETTS, AS WHERE NEW CASES ARE OCCURRING AND HENCE, FIGURE OUT HOW TO PREVENT THEM.

THERE IS A PAPER THAT JUST CAME OUT TODAY IN SLOVENIA LOOKING AT RAPID TESTS THAT HAVE BEEN ADVOCATED BY ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES AT THE HARVARD CHAN SCHOOL.

THEY'RE CHEAP, THEIR RAPID AND THE IMPACT OF FINDING OUT WHO PEOPLE ARE THAT ARE NEWLY INFECTED IN A WEEK OR TWO WEEK PERIOD, HAS DROPPED BY BRING% AND THE ACCURACY IS NOT PERFECT.

BUT WE'RE NOT INTERESTED IN THE NUMBERS.

WE'RE INTERESTED IN PREVENTING TRANSMISSION, ISOLATE BEING PEOPLE THAT ARE IN CONTACT AND QUARANTINING THOSE WHO MIGHTING TRANSMITTERS.

THAT IS WHAT WE HAVEN'T DONE IN THIS COUNTRY WELL.

>> Reilly: SANDY WOULD YOU ADD ANYTHING THERE?

>> I CERTAINLY THINK WE NEED TO TEST MORE PEOPLE WHO ARE ASYMPTOMATIC, SO WE CAN FOO FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS AND THE TRENDS OF PEOPLE WHO AREN'T OTHERWISE EXHIBITING SYMPTOMS.

I WOULD ALSO LOOK A LITTLE BIT MORE SORT OF ON OA POLICY LEFT.

BUT WHEN YOU COMPARE WHERE WE ARE NOW IN THE AMOUNT OF CIRCULATING VIRUS AS MEASURED BY THE KNOWN CASES WE REALLY ARE AT A PLACE THAT I DON'T THINK REALLY QUITE ALLOWS THE LEVEL OF CONGREGATION THAT WE HAVE DECIDED TO EMBRACE AS A STATE AND AS A COMMUNITY ANDI DO WORRY THAT OUR PRIORITIES RIGHT NOW ARE REALLY TO RESUME SOME KIND OF NORMALCY BEFORE WE'RE READY TO DO THAT FROM A PUBLIC HEALTH STANDPOINT.

WOULD I URGE SOME DEGREE OF CAUTION IN THE REOPENING UNTIL THE NUMBERS AND THE VACCINE PREVALENCE GO UP A LITTLE BIT MORE.

>> Reilly: ONE THING I HAVE BEEN STRUCK BY, BY THE WAY, UNLIKE YOU AS EXPERTS, YOU ARE TOLD TO DO CERTAIN THINGS FOR EXAMPLE START GATHERING IN BIGGER NUMBERS, START GOING BACK TO RESTAURANTS IN HIGHER NUMBERS, START GOING BACK TO SCHOOL TO LEARN IN PERSON, THAT IMPLIES TO DO OTHER THINGS AS WELL.

I LIVE IN SWANSCOTT WHERE A BUNCH OF STUDENTS RECENTLY DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO GET TOGETHER INSIDE AND DO WHATEVER ELSE HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS DO WHEN THEY GET TOGETHER INSIDE.

IT BECAME THE BIGGEST SPREADING EVENT OVER THE COURSE OF THE PANDEMIC.

AM I RIGHT THAT THAT IS A DOMINO EFFECT WE NEED TO WATCH OUT FOR?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK SANDY IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

IF YOU LET YOUR GUARD DOWN AND I THINK THE TIME TRAIL IS BETWEEN TWO AND THREE MONTHS.

IF WE KEEP THE CURVE GOING DOWN, NOT JUST STAYING FLAT BUT GOING DOWN WE WILL HAVE ENOUGH VACCINES OUT THERE SO A GREAT MANY MORE PEOPLE INCLUDING YOUNGER PEOPLE WILL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE VACCINATED.

>> Reilly: I WANT TO ASK BOTH OF YOU ABOUT THE ASTRA ZENECA, WHAT SEEMS TO BE THE MESS.

I HAVE TRIED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON, AS IT WENT FROM OTHER PEOPLE, EUROPEANS WORRYING ABOUT EXCESSIVE PLATELET FORMATION, I MIGHT BE RIGHT, I KNOW THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT BLOOD CLOTS AND IN THE UNITED STATES, WORRIED ABOUT DATA THAT HADN'T BEEN PRESENTED CORRECTLY.

WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO ME AND OTHERS LIKE ME, A LAYPERSON'S VIEW OF WHAT THE IMPLICATIONS COULD BE?

>> PERHAPS I COULD START ON THAT AS WELL.

WHAT I ALWAYS LIKE TO PREFACE MY THOUGHTS IN VACCINES ARE, THE MOST IMPORTANT INGREDIENT IN ANY VACCINE IS TRUST.

AND WHAT ASTRA ZENECA HAS DONE IS INSTILL A LACK OF TRUST.

IF THEY PRESENTED ALL OF THE DATA WHEN IT WAS REQUESTED BY THE ADVISORY COMMITTEES, I WOULDN'T HAVE TO SAY, PROBABLY ALL THE DATA.

WE WOULD KNOW THE DATA.

THIS HAS BEEN A PROBLEM AT TWO LEVELS.

THE MAJOR ONE IS SOMETHING I THINK PEOPLE HAVE DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING.

WHEN YOU RUN A TRIAL WITH 32,000 PEOPLE, SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE HEART ATTACKS.

SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE CLOT BEING EVENTS.

SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GET RUN OVER BY A CAR AND SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COMMIT SUICIDE.

AND THE CHALLENGE IS, IF THIS OCCURS TWO WEEKS OR A MONTH AFTER A VACCINE, HOW DO YOU KNOW WHICH EVENTS ARE CAUSED BY THE VACCINE AND WHICH NOT?

AND ONE OF THE WAYS DO YOU THAT IS, YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S THE INCIDENCE OF HEART ATTACK, SUICIDES, AUTOMOBILE ACCIDENTS, BEFORE PEOPLE GOT VACCINATED?

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THOSE NUMBERS FROM EUROPE AND AFRICA, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TWO INCIDENTS PER MILLION PEOPLE.

SO THE NUMBERS ARE ABSOLUTELY SO LOW THEY CAN'T BE DISTINGUISHED BETWEEN WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF PEOPLE DIDN'T GET A VACCINE.

AND IF I COULD SAY ONE MORE THING, IS IN A SENSE, THE TROUBLES OF THE ASTRA ZENECA VACCINE REPRESENTS THE SUCCESS OF THE REVIEW SYSTEM AT THE FDA AND THE CDC, WHICH IS LOOKING AT EVERY BIT OF DATA AND WITH A FINE TOOTH COMB, CHECKING ON THEIR NUMBERS, CHECKING ON THE STATISTICAL NUMBERS FOR ANY ADVERSE EFFECT THAT'S REPORTED AND ALL ADVERSE EFFECTS ARE REPORTED, SO WHEN THEY FINALLY APPROVE SOMETHING, THE PUBLIC SHOULD BE DAMN SURE IT'S AS SAFE AS WE KNOW HOW TO GET IT.

>> Reilly: I LIKE THAT UPBEAT GLOSS, THE REGULATORY SYSTEM ACTUALLY WORKING IN THE CASE EVEN IF THE COMPANY DIDN'T HANDLE THINGS ESPECIALLY WELL.

>> YOU BET.

>> Reilly: SANDY I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT STUDY WE MENTIONED, THE HOSPITAL SURVEY THAT WAS JUST RELEASED, FINDING THESE INCREDIBLY HIGH RATES OF STRESS, BURNOUT AND SOMETHING APPROACHING PTSD ON BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN PROVIDING CARE OVER THE PAST YEAR.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE WITNESSED YOURSELF, FIRSTHAND AT ALL?

>> OH, UNDOUBTEDLY SO.

I THINK THE LAST YEAR HAS BEEN INCREDIBLY TAXING FOR HEALTH CARE WORKERS.

AND I THINK THE PERSISTENCE AND RECURRENCE OF THIS, THE SURGES WHERE THINGS SEEM TO GET BETTER AND THEN WE HAVE TO BRACE OURSELVES KNOWING THAT IT'S GOING TO GET WORSE AGAIN.

THERE WAS NOTHING LIKE THAT FIRST SURGE.

THAT FIRST SURGE WAS REALLY BRUTAL FOR US, MARCH, APRIL OF LAST YEAR WE WERE FACING A PATHOGEN WE DIDN'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO CARE FOR.

WE WERE WORRIED ABOUT OUR OWN HEALTH.

WE WERE WORRIED ABOUT THE HEALTH OF OUR FAMILIES.

IN SOME CASES WE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT AND THERE WAS A TREMENDOUS EXHAUSTION AND FATIGUE AS OUR HOSPITALS WERE JUST OVERLOADED.

WE ALL LOOK BACK THERE AND WE REMEMBER THAT TIME AND WE JUST DON'T WANT TO GO THERE AGAIN.

AS WE SEE THESE CASES BEGIN TO TRICKLE UP AGAIN WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS.

I WILL SAY WE HAVE LEARNED A LOT FROM THESE HARDSHIPS AND WE HAVE MADE PROCESS CHANGES THAT HAVE REALLY BEEN EFFECTIVE AT LEAST AT MY INSTITUTION.

SO THAT THERE'S A LITTLE -- THE WORKLOAD IS MORE EVEN REPLY DISTRIBUTED.

WE ARE MUCH BETTER NOW AT CARING FOR PATIENTS THAN WE WERE.

THE DEATH RATES ARE LOWER.

WE CERTAINLY FEEL MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE KNOWING HOW TO PROTECT OURSELVES.

WE'RE NOT WORRIED ANYMORE ABOUT BRINGING DISEASE HOME TO OUR FAMILY.

I THINK THE OTHER PIECE THAT HAS REALLY BEEN POSITIVE IS THAT IT IS HIGHLIGHTED THE NEED FOR US TO FOCUS ON OUR OWN WELLNESS AND THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF INITIATIVES THAT HAVE BEEN ROLLED OUT AT LEAST AT MY INSTITUTION TO REALLY FOCUS ON ENSURING THAT WE HAVE SAFE PLACES WHERE WE CAN DISCUSS HOW IT FEELS WHERE WE CAN REALLY SEEK HELP IF WE NEED IT, IF WE'RE UNUSUALLY ANXIOUS.

AND WE EVEN HAVE OPEN FORUMS FOR REFLECTION.

EVEN AS RECENTLY AS THIS WEEK MY DIVISION GOT TOGETHER FOR A ZOOM MEETING WHERE WE REALLY TALKED ABOUT WHAT THE IMPACT OF THAT LAST YEAR HAS FELT LIKE FOR US.

AND THERE WERE SOME LAUGHS AND THERE WERE SOME TEARS AND ALL OF THAT WAS OKAY.

SO I THINK WE'RE IN A BETTER PLACE THAN WE WERE BUT I WILL AGREE COMPLETELY IT IS EXHAUSTING.

>> Reilly: ON THAT NOTE, SANDY BLISS NELSON, BARRY BLOOM THANK YOU FOR JOARCHG JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Reilly: EVEN THOUGH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION JUST FIRED SEVERAL STAFFERS WHO'D USED MARIJUANA AND OTHER DRUGS, THE STIGMA SURROUNDING POT SEEMS TO BE AT AN ALL-TIME LOW.

AS YOU MAY KNOW FROM FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE, MASSACHUSETTS AND SEVERAL OTHER STATES HAVE RECENTLY LEGALIZED OR DECRIMINALIZED MARIJUANA CULTIVATION, USE AND POSSESSION.

NOW, THERE'S A GROWING PUSH TO DO THE SAME FOR PSILOCYBIN, THE PSYCHOACTIVE SUBSTANCE FOUND IN HALLUCINOGENIC MUSHROOMS.

LAST YEAR, VOTERS IN OREGON BACKED THE LEGALIZATION OF PSILOCYBIN IN CONTROLLED THERAPEUTIC SETTINGS, AND THIS YEAR IN MASSACHUSETTS, THE CAMBRIDGE AND SOMERVILLE CITY COUNCILS PASSED RESOLUTIONS AIMED AT REDUCING OR ELIMINATING THE ENFORCEMENT OF ANTI-PSILOCYBIN LAWS.

AT THE STATE HOUSE, MEANWHILE, CAMBRIDGE STATE REPRESENTATIVE MIKE CONNOLLY IS PUSHING FOR A TASK FORCE THAT WOULD EXPLORE THE LEGALIZATION OF HALLUCINOGENIC PLANTS STATEWIDE.

BUT WHILE PROPONENTS TOUT PSILOCYBIN'S THERAPEUTIC UPSIDE, SKEPTICS SAY THERE ARE SOME BIG QUESTIONS THAT NEED TO BE ANSWERED FIRST.

JOINING ME TO WEIGHT THE PROS AND CONS ARE: DR. JERRY ROSENBAUM, THE DIRECTOR OF MASS GENERAL HOSPITAL'S CENTER FOR ANXIETY AND TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDERS AND M.G.H's NEW CENTER FOR THE NEUROSCIENCE OF PSYCHEDELICS; AND BERTHA MADRAS, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOBIOLOGY AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY, DIRECTOR OF McLEAN HOSPITAL'S LABORATORY OF ADDICTION NEUROBIOLOGY, AND A FORMER DEPUTY DRUG CZAR IN THE WHITE HOUSE'S OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

JERRY, LET ME START WITH YOU.

SINCE YOU RUN THE CENTER, AT MGH, IN LAYPERSON'S TERMS, WHAT IS THE NEUROSCIENCE OF PSYCH DELLICS AND HOW CAN THEY BE BENEFICIAL TO THE HUMAN MIND?

>> WELL, LIKE MANY PEOPLE, HAVE BEEN STRUCK BY WHAT'S TRULY A TSUNAMI OF TESTIMONIALS AND SOME SMALL STUDIES THAT PARTICULARLY IN PATIENTS WHO HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO TRADITIONAL TREATMENTS.

BUT THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT THESE SUBSTANCES DO TO THE HUMAN BRAIN THAT SEEMS TO ALLOW CAPACITY FOR CHANGE.

SO OUR INTEREST IN THIS AREA WAS PRETTY FOCUSED ON TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THAT.

WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING ON IN THE BRAIN AND NERVOUS SYSTEM?

SO OUR KNEW ORE NEUROSCIENCE PROGRAM, STUDIES OF THE HUMAN BRAIN EXPOSED TO THESE SUBSTANCES.

WE ARE NOT -- WE DON'T SEE OURSELVES AS PART OF THE LARGE MOVEMENT OF ADVOCACY, ALTHOUGH I THINK WE TAKE A MORE OPTIMISTIC VIEW ABOUT THESE SUBSTANCES THAN SOME DO.

BUT OUR FOCUS IS REALLY ON TRYING TO FILL A GAP IN WHAT IS KNOWN ABOUT WHAT THESE AGENTS DO TO THE BRAIN.

>> Reilly: CAN YOU DESCRIBE SOME OF THE EVIDENCE THAT HAS ACCRUED TO SHOW THAT THEY CAN BE BENEFICIAL WHEN IT COMES TO RECONFIGURING THE BRAIN FOR PEOPLE SUFFERING IN MENTAL ILLNESS?

YOU MENTIONED A COUPLE OF STUDIES.

YOU KNOW, JUST ONE OF THOSE IF YOU CAN DESCRIBE IT OR EVEN CASE STUDY INVOLVING ONE PERSON.

ANYTHING THAT SPEAKS TO WHAT YOU'RE DISCUSSING WOULD BE GREAT.

>> SO IT'S A GREAT QUESTION BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE BASE IS NOT TYPICALLY WHAT PHYSICIANS OR THE FDA OR -- WOULD SAY HAS DEMONSTRATED EFFICACY.

WHAT YOU HAVE IS A LOT OF VERY IMPRESSIVE STORIES, AND SMALL STUDIES, SOME OF THEM, MOST OF THEM ACTUALLY, OPEN STUDIES.

BUT THE KEY THING IN THOSE IS THAT THERE ARE MAINLY IN PEOPLE WHO HAD FAILED TO RESPOND TO OTHER TREATMENTS OR HAD LONG STANDING PSYCHIATRIC SUFFERING THAT RESOLVED AND THAT CHANGE SEEMED DURABLE.

SO SMALL STUDIES MIGHT BE 20 OR 30 SUBJECTS, OPEN, THERE HAVE BEEN -- THERE ARE CONTROLLED STUDIES GOING ON.

PSILOCYBIN IS WHAT WE CALL PHASE 2B OF AN FDA APPROVED CLINICAL TRIAL.

AND MDMA IS IN PHASE 3, STUDYING ITS EFFICACY IN PTSD.

BUT MOST OF THE EVIDENCE TODAY ARE IN SMALL TRIALS BY RESPECTABLE INVESTIGATORS.

BUT BEAR IN MIND THEY ARE ENTHUSIASTS, PEOPLE WHO BELONG STRONGLY IN THESE AGENTS AND PEOPLE VERY WILLING TO TRY THEM.

ALTHOUGH IT'S PROMISING THERE IS A LOT MORE TO KNOW.

>> Reilly: BERTHA LET ME GET YOU IN HERE.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS YOU HAVE SOME CONCERNS ABOUT HOW INCREASED USE OF PSILOCYBIN IN THERAPEUTIC CONTEXT MAY PLAY OUT POSSIBLE ADVERSE EFFECTS.

COULD YOU DESCRIBE THOSE FOR ME?

WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT WORRY YOU AS PEOPLE START INVESTIGATING THE SORT OF QUESTIONS THAT JERRY WAS TALKING ABOUT?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE THREE QUESTIONS.

I'D LIKE TO PREFACE MY COMMENTS BY SAYING THAT JERRY'S APPROACH AT THE MASS GENERAL IS EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD WANT.

NO TRUE SCIENTIST IS AGAINST CONDUCTING GOOD, SOLID RESEARCH.

IT'S THE CONSEQUENCES AND HOW THE RESEARCH IS INTERPRETED THAT IS THE CRITICAL THING.

AND SECONDLY HOW SOLID IS THE EVIDENCE?

I HAVE THREE QUESTIONS.

HOW SOLID IS THE EVIDENCE THAT HAS HAPPENED SO FAR?

WE'VE HAD VERY KNEW LIMITED STUDIES IN -- VERY FEW LIMITED STUDIES.

IN 2020, WE'VE HE HAD 17 NOW WITH A FEW FOCUSED ON MDMA, ON ECSTASY, THIS VAST MAJORITY ARE PSILOCYBIN BECAUSE THERE IS A FEELING IT IS ONE OF THE LESSER PROBLEMATIC HALL US HALLUCINOGENS.

SO MY FIRST QUESTION IS HOW GOOD IS THE SCIENCE?

I COULD GET INTO THE REASONS WHY I'M A LITTLE CONCERNED ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE SCIENCE.

THE SECOND ISSUE IS THAT THE WAY IF SCIENCE HAS BEEN CONDUCTED AND ROLAND RIFACE HAS DONE A REASONABLY THEY COACH THEM AHEAD OF TIME.

THEY STAY WITH THEM FOR EIGHT HOURS, THEY HAVE SOMEBODY HOLDING THEIR HAND.

THEY PICK UP 40 PIECES OF MUSIC THAT THEY ARE GOING TO RESONATE WITH THAT INDIVIDUAL, AND THERE IS A COACH WITH THEM AT ALL TIMES.

SO THIS IS A PROTOCOL THAT IS QUITE LABOR-INTENSIVE AND THE QUESTION IS, HOW QUICKLY IS THAT GOING TO BE LOST IN THE WASH, IF THERE'S A RUSH TO JUDGMENT WITH REGARD TO JUST INCORPORATING IT INTO PRACTICE RCTS?

AND?AND MY THIRD CONCERN IS THE REALITY OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES.

WE'VE SEEN A VAST UPTICK IN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES, WITH RESPECT TO DRUGS THAT ARE PSYCHOACTIVE, THAT ARE SCHEDULED BY THE CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES ACT.

AND THAT'S OBVIOUSLY THE OPIOIDS CRISIS WHICH WAS CATALYZED BY PRESCRIPTION OPIOIDS AND THE MEDICAL MARIJUANA STORY WHICH DEVOLVED VERY RAPIDLY INTO MARIJUANA LEGALIZATION.

ONCE YOU PLACE A LABEL ON A DRUG THAT IT'S A MEDICINE, AND IT'S SAFE, THEN WE ARE THE WILD WEST OF THE WORLD IN TERMS OF RUNNING AMOK WITH REGARD TO NOT ADHERING TO REGULATIONS.

AND OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM ALSO IS GENERATIONAL FORGETTING.

WE HAVE FORGOT EVERYONE THE LESSONS WE HAD WITH OPIOIDS AND PROBABLY GOING TO FORGET THE LESSONS WE'VE LEARNED FROM HALLUCINOGENS.

>> Reilly: THERE WAS A STUDY I WAS READING ABOUT BEFORE OUR CONVERSATION, YOU TWO WILL KNOW IT, SOME OF OUR VIEWERS MAY, IT WAS A JAMA STUDY OF A FAIRLY SMALL GROUP WITH MAJOR DEPRESSIVE DISORDER.

THEY HAD TWO PSILOCYBIN MORE THAN HALF OF THEM WERE IN REMISSION A MONTH LATER WHICH IS YOU KNOW ON THE FACE OF IT AN INCREDIBLY IMPRESSIVE NUMBER.

IF I WERE STRUGGLING WITH MAJOR DEPRESSIVE DISORDER AND COULDN'T GET RELIEF FROM OTHER TREATMENTS IT WOULD CERTAINLY MAKE ME WANT TO TRY THAT AND YET BERTHA AS YOU POINT OUT THERE DOES SEEM TO BE A RISK AS IS THERE IS THIS BROADER MOVEMENT TO MAYBE LEGALIZE THIS THE WAY WE LEGALIZE MARIJUANA.

I THINK WE SHOULD PROBABLY STRESS THAT SOMEONE WHO IS WATCHING AT HOME WHO HAS BEEN FEELING DEEPLY DEPRESSED, SHOULD NOT THINK, OH THE ANSWER IS TAKING SOME MUSHROOMS SO I'LL GO OUT AND TRY THAT, IS THAT FAIR?

>> THAT'S FAIR BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN EX COLLUDED FROM THE CLINICAL TRIALS THUS FAR ARE PEOPLE WITH SEVER MENTAL DISORDERS.

AND THAT -- >> CONTRAINDICATIONS AT THIS POINTS TO USE, ALTHOUGH THAT'S ALSO NOT WELL STUDIED.

>> YES.

SO WE DON'T -- WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS AS WE DID WITH OPIOIDS, GENERALIZE ITS USE, FOR-IN OPIOIDS IT WAS ALL FORMS OF PAIN WITHOUT ANY TIME LIMITS, WITHOUT ANY DOSE LIMITS AT THE BEGINNING.

AND WE HAVE A DISASTER, A CRISIS UNPRECEDENTED IN OUR HISTORY.

AND I AM REALLY CONCERNED THAT UNLESS THE FDA, IF THEY APPROVE ANY OF THE HALL US A HALLUCINOGENS WHICH IS POSSIBLE, UNLESS THEY HAVE A RIGOROUS CONTROL IN TERMS OF TRAINING, IN TERMS OF THE SIR COUPLE SCRIBEDCIRCUMSCRIBED SETTINGS FOR THE PATIENTS, WE'RE GOING TO END UP WITH ANOTHER DRUG ADDED TO OUR PROBLEMS.

>> Reilly: AND IT'S AGAIN PROBABLY WORTH HIGHLIGHTING AND JERRY I'D LOVE TO GET TO YOU WEIGH IN ON THIS.

WHEREAS PEOPLE EXPERIMENT WITH MARIJUANA AND WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE TRIED IT BEFORE, PROBABLY HAVE A FAIRLY MEDICAL LOW EXPERIENCE PSILOCYBIN IS DIFFERENT, IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?

>> CAN BE.

I MEAN PEOPLE ARE USING IT ALL DIFFERENTLY WAYS FROM MICRO-DOSING WHICH SOME PEOPLE ENDORSE AS HAVING BEEN VERY HELPFUL WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, IMPERCEPTIBLE IN TERMS OF THE MORE DRAMATIC EXPERIENCE THAT PEOPLE CAN HAVE WITH THE FULL DOSE INFUSION FOR EXAMPLE.

SO THERE IS A WHOLE RANGE OF EXPERIENCE WITH IT.

YOU KNOW, THE PART OF WHAT BERTH BERTHA HAS SAID THAT I SHARE, BECAUSE I'M OPTIMISTIC THERE IS A STORY THAT HAD A I SHARE WITH PATIENTS THAT WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO HELP BEFORE, UNSUPERVISED USE, UNTRAINED USE, UNREGULATED USE WILL INEVITABLY LEAD TO SOME ADVERSE CONSEQUENCES THAT MAY SET US BACK FOR DIFFERENT REASONS BUT ANALOGOUS TO WHAT HAPPENED IN THE '60s FOR EXAMPLE.

THAT THERE MAY BE ANOTHER TOOL IN THE TOOL KIT THAT WILL ALLOW US TO TREAT SOME PATIENTS WE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO TREAT, FOR SOMEONE WHO PRACTICES THE WAY DO I WHO FOCUSES ON TREATMENT-RESISTANT PATIENTS, THIS IS VERY, VERY HOPEFUL.

AND ALSO -- >> Reilly: PROCEED WITH CAUTION.

>> PROCEED WITH CAUTION AND IN SUBSTANCES WITH POTENTIAL HARM TO SELF AND HARM TO OTHERS, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOT THE WORSE THINGS OUT.

>> Reilly: ON THAT NOTE, SOUNDS LIKE IT'S A STORY WE PLAY OUT MORE, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

JERRY ROSENBAUM, BERTHA MADRAS, APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: FINALLY TONIGHT, REMEMBERING SOME OF THE PEOPLE BEHIND THE COVID DEATH TOLL WITH THE HELP OF THE "FACES OF COVID" TWITTER ACCOUNT, LIKE 83-YEAR-OLD THOMAS TANNER OF WEYMOUTH WHOSE FAMILY SAID HE HAD AN "AMAZING TALENT" OF "TAKING A DIFFICULT TASK AND MAKING IT FUN WHILE MAKING SURE TO COMPLETE THE TASK."

HE'S SURVIVED BY "THE LOVE OF HIS LIFE, JOSEPHINE, AND HIS LOVING CHILDREN."

79-YEAR-OLD ALAYNE ANTHONY OF SPRINGFIELD: HER FAMILY DESCRIBED HER AS "THE MOST SELFLESS PERSON" WHO "CARED ABOUT OTHERS BEFORE HERSELF AND MADE MANY SACRIFICES FOR HER CHILDREN IN HARD TIMES.

SHE ADORED HER GRANDCHILDREN AND LOVED SPENDING TIME WITH THEM."

70-YEAR-OLD ANTONIO COLASANTO OF HAMDEN, CONNECTICUT, WHO WORKED "TIRELESSLY HIS WHOLE LIFE TO PROVIDE AND CARE FOR HIS FAMILY AND TO SERVE HIS COMMUNITY."

HIS FAMILY SAID HE WAS "THE MOST HARDWORKING, SELFLESS MAN" AND "WILL FOREVER BE LOVED AND MISSED."

AND 73-YEAR-OLD KATHLEEN MONACO OF DERBY, CONNECTICUT, WHOSE FAMILY DESCRIBED HER AS BEING "AN AMAZING LADY THAT LOVED HER FAMILY AND HER WORK.

SHE WILL BE FOREVER MISSED."

IF YOU LOST SOMEONE YOU LOVE TO THE PANDEMIC AND WOULD LIKE TO SHARE THEIR STORY, PLEASE VISIT www.twitter.com/facesofcovid.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT DO COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "BEAT THE PRESS."

EMILY ROONEY AND HER PANEL, INCLUDING YOURS TRULY, WILL TAKE UP THE SURGE OF MIGRANTS AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BLOCKING REPORTERS FROM DETENTION CENTERS.

PLUS, GRAPHIC VIDEO OF THE COLORADO SHOOTING: SHOULD YOUTUBE TAKE IT DOWN?

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org