>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO BE ABLE TO USE SOME OF MY CASH TO GET ELECTED.

>> THE TRUMP CONUNDRUM.

I SPEAK TO ANTHONY SCARMUCCI, HIS FORMER DEFENDER AND SHORT-LIVED SPOKESMAN ABOUT THE EVOLUTION OF MAGA AND HOW TO STAND UP FOR DEMOCRACY.

>>> THEN -- >> I GET QUITE NERVOUS, AND I GET MORE SWEARY WHEN I'M MORE NERVOUS.

>> "WICKED LITTLE LETTERS."

MOVIE STAR OLIVIA COLMAN AND DIRECTOR THEA SHARROCK ON A REAL LIFE SQUANL THAT GRIPPED A NATION.

>>> ASKING HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THEIR LIFE INVITES THEM TO SAY SOMETHING EL MEANINGFUL AND REAL.

>> "SUPERCOMMUNICATORS" AUTHOR AUTHOR CHARLIES DUHIGG TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HOW TO HAVE A GREAT CONVERSATION.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS GIVEN AN OVAL OFFICE ADDRESS ABOUT THE BALTIMORE BRIDGE THAT WAS STRUCK BY A CARGO SHIP AND COLLAPSED.

SEARCH AND RESCUE IS STILL GOING ON, AND SOME PEOPLE REMAIN UNACCOUNTED FOR.

HERE'S WHAT BIDEN HAD TO SAY.

>> PEOPLE IN BALTIMORE, WE WANT TO SAY WE'RE WITH YOU.

WE'RE GOING STAY WITH YOU AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

LIKE THE GOVERNOR SAID, YOU'RE MARYLAND TOUGH.

YOU'RE BALTIMORE STRONG, AND WE'RE GOING GET THROUGH THIS TOGETHER.

AND I PROMISE, WE'RE NOT LEAVING.

>> INDEED, THE PRESIDENT VOWED THAT FEDERAL FUNDS WOULD PAY FOR THE WHOLE REBUILD.

GETTING THAT BRIDGE AND THE PORT AND THOSE DEPENDENT JOBS BACK UP AND RUNNING IS CRUCIAL FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN.

IT GOES TO THE HEART OF THE ECONOMY AS WELL.

MEANTIME, HIS OPPONENT IN THE UPCOMING PRESIDENTIAL RACE, THE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP SPENDS MUCH OF HIS TIME IN COURT DEFENDING HIMSELF AGAINST A SERIES OF CRIMINAL CHARGES, FINES, AND UPCOMING TRIALS.

TRUMP MADE HISTORY, OF COURSE, WHEN HE BECAME THE FIRST U.S. PRESIDENT TO BE IMPEACHED TWICE, AND NOW HE'S MAKING HISTORY AGAIN, BECOMING THE FIRST FORMER PRESIDENT TO BE CRIMINALLY PROSECUTED.

ON APRIL 15th, TRUMP IS SET TO FACE TRIAL IN MANHATTAN ON CHARGES OF PAYING HUSH MONEY TO COVER UP AN AFFAIR WITH STEPHANIE CLIFFORD, AKA STORMY DANIELS.

TRUE TO FORM, TRUMP SAYS HE'S THE VICTIM OF PERSECUTION, USING THOSE LINES TO GET THE MAGA FAITHFUL TO FORK OVER THEIR CASH FOR HIS CAMPAIGN AND DEFENSE.

TRUMP FACES THREE OTHER CRIMINAL INDICTMENTS, INCLUDING ATTEMPTS TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION.

BUT FOR NOW, ONLY THE MANHATTAN HUSH MONEY CASE LOOKS SET TO GO TO TRIAL BEFORE NOVEMBER.

ANTHONY SCARMUCCI WAS ONCE A DEDICATED TRUMP SUPPORTER AND SPENT A NOTORIOUS 11 DAYS AS THE WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR.

BUT SINCE 2019, HE'S OPPOSED THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S REELECTION, AND HE'S NOW JOINING US FROM LAS VEGAS.

ANTHONY SCARMUCCI, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO TALK TO YOU BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT FOR I THINK EVERYBODY IN THE UNITED STATES AND WATCHING AROUND THE WORLD TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO INFORM THEIR OWN THINKING ABOUT A POTENTIAL SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

AND SINCE YOU WERE THERE FOR A GOOD, GOOD LONG TIME, WE THOUGHT WE'D START BY ASKING YOU, BASED ON WHAT HE HAS ALREADY DONE IN OFFICE.

BUT FIRST, I WANT TO START WITH THE TRIALS.

AS WE MENTIONED WHAT'S JUST HAPPENED, HE WAS GIVEN A BIT OF A LIFELINE YESTERDAY.

THE AMOUNT OF BOND THAT HE WAS TOLD, NEARLY HALF A BILLION DOLLARS WAS REDUCED.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HE WAS TOLD THAT A COURT DATE ON A DIFFERENT CHARGES WOULD ACTUALLY BE COMING ON APRIL 15th.

SO WHERE DO YOU THINK HE STANDS POLITICALLY AND, YOU KNOW, WITH HIS FAITHFUL RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, I THINK WITH HIS FAITHFUL, HE'S QUITE STRONG.

I JUST THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE DATA AND THE NUMBERS, THEY MAY BE LOUDER THAN BEFORE, BUT THEY'RE SMALLER.

AND IF YOU GO TO THE RALLIES, YOU'LL SEE THAT THE RALLIES ARE SMALLER.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT REGISTRATIONS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, CHRISTIANE, THEY'RE DOWN.

SO THE COMBINATION OF THOSE TWO THINGS DO NOT BODE WELL FOR THE PRESIDENT.

AS IT RELATES TO HIS MIND-SET, HE'LL TAKE ONE DAY AT A TIME.

HE IS A VERY GOOD COMPARTMENTALIZER.

BUT THIS IS WREAKING HAVOC ON HIM, BECAUSE HE'S GOT THE MONEY HE'S GOT TO PUT UP.

IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT HE HAS THAT MONEY.

OF COURSE WHEN HE SAYS HE HAS IT,S THEY PROBABLY A TELL THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE IT.

AND THEN HE HAS THE CRIMINAL PROCEEDING COMING UP.

AND HE KNOWS HIS FORMER LAWYER MICHAEL COHEN WENT TO JAIL FOR THAT VERY SAME FACT SET.

SO THAT'S GOING TO BE A DIFFICULT CASE FOR HIM AS WELL.

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, HE'S NOT RAISING MONEY.

AND SO PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS A SURPLUS DIFFERENTIAL OF ABOUT $45 MILLION RIGHT NOW.

AND ALTHOUGH MR. TRUMP DOES HAVE A SMALL CADRE OF BILLIONAIRES THAT ARE GOING TO SUPPORT HIM, HE DOESN'T ARE THE WIDESPREAD NET THAT SAY A GOVERNOR MITT ROMNEY HAD IN 2012 OR GEORGE W. BUSH HAD, SAY, IN 2000 OR 2004.

>> HE -- DONALD TRUMP, AS I SAID USES THESE TRIALS AND THESE CHARGES AND THESE INDICTMENTS TO SAY THAT HE IS THE VICTIM, HE IS THE PERSECUTED BY POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

AND THAT OBVIOUSLY FIRES UP HIS BASE.

JUST EXPLAIN TO US, IS THERE A PRECEDENT?

WHEN WE KNOW THERE IS NOT A PRECEDENT FOR IMPEACHED PRESIDENTS AND THOSE FACING CRIMINAL TRIAL, BUT IN TERMS OF MONEY, AND YOU'RE A FINANCIER, IS IT -- IS IT ALLOWED TO USE CAMPAIGN DONATIONS AND THE LIKE TO, FOR INSTANCE, HELP WITH LEGAL BILLS?

>> SO THE WAY THAT WOULD WORK IN THE UNITED STATES IS THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO PUT IT IN THE PRESIDENT'S POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE.

AND SO HE NOW HAS HIS DAUGHTER-IN-LAW TAKING CHARGE OF THE RNC.

AND IN THE FINE PRINT WHEN YOU'RE SENDING MONEY TO THE RNC, IT SAYS WELL, THE FIRST STOP FOR THAT MONEY IS GOING TO BE THE PRESIDENT'S POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE.

AND IT MAY BE USED FOR HIS LEGAL FEES.

AND SO AS LONG AS YOU'RE DISCLOSING WHAT THE MONEY IS GOING TO BE USED FOR IN THE UNITED STATES YOU CAN USE THE MONEY FOR THOSE REASONS.

AND OF COURSE WHAT MR. TRUMP DID AFTER THE ELECTION, HE LIED ABOUT THE ELECTION RESULTS, HE HAD A VERY LARGE GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THE U.S.

BELIEVING IN ELECTION DENIALISM, INCLUDING HIS FRIEND RONNA McDANIEL.

AND WHAT HE DID IS HE RAISED A TON OF MONEY OFF OF THAT BIG LIE, AND HE'S USED A LOT OF THAT MONEY FOR HIS CURRENT LEGAL FEES ON THESE FOUR DIFFERENT CASES.

SO YOU CAN USE THE MONEY, BUT THE DANGER FOR HIM, AND I THINK HE KNOWS THIS, HIS FACEBOOK ADS ARE DOWN ABOUT 85%.

HIS INSTAGRAM ADS ARE VIRTUALLY NONEXISTENT.

AND IF HE DOESN'T GET UP ON THE AIRWAVES AND IN SOCIAL MEDIA IN SCALE, HE IS NOT GOING REACH ENOUGH PEOPLE TO BEAT PRESIDENT BIDEN.

SO REMEMBER, THIS WILL BE DOWN TO A FEW SWING STATES.

PRESIDENT BIDEN WILL WIN THE POPULAR VOTE.

MR. TRUMP HAS NEVER WON THAT.

BUT IT WILL BE A BATTLE IN THREE OR FOUR SWING STATES.

AND WITHOUT THE ADVERTISING, IT'S GOING TO BE VERY HARD FOR HIM.

>> SO PEOPLE CERTAINLY ABROAD ANY WAY WHO ARE LOOKING ON AND WHO LIKE THE READ THE AMERICAN TEA LEAVES SAY, WELL, LOOK AT THE SWING STATES.

IN SOME OF THEM, HIS POLLS ARE HIGHER THAN PRESIDENT BIDEN'S.

AND THEY SAY WOW, LOOK AT HOW CONVINCINGLY HE WON ALL THE PRIMARIES AND THE CAUCUSES LEADING UP TO HIM BEING THE OFFICIAL CANDIDATE.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ABOUT THAT IN TERMS OF A GENERAL ELECTION?

>> WELL, THREE THINGS.

I THINK HE IS AHEAD IN THE POLLS BECAUSE HE'S HAD WAY MORE MEDIA EXPOSURE THAN PRESIDENT BIDEN.

HE JUST WENT THROUGH THE PRIMARY SEASON FOR THE REPUBLICANS.

AND OF COURSE THE INCUMBENT PRESIDENT DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT.

THE SECOND THING I WOULD SAY IS IF YOU REALLY ANALYZE THAT DATA, THERE IS APPROXIMATELY 25% OF THE REPUBLICANS WHO VOTED FOR NIKKI HALEY WHEN THEY EXITED THE POLLS AND WERE ASKED WOULD YOU VOTE FOR MR. TRUMP, THAT NUMBER WAS A NEGATIVE.

THE WORD WAS A NEGATIVE.

SO THE POINT BEING, IF YOU DON'T GET THE CROSSOVER VOTE, YOU REALLY CAN'T WIN THE PRESIDENCY.

SECRETARY OF STATE HILLARY CLINTON DID NOT GET THAT CROSSOVER VOTE FROM BERNIE SANDERS, BUT BARACK OBAMA DID GET THAT CROSSOVER VOTE FROM SENATOR CLINTON.

AND SO -- AND OF COURSE MR. TRUMP GOT THAT CROSSOVER VOTE FROM HIS FELLOW REPUBLICANS IN 2016.

BUT I THINK THAT THERE IS SEVERAL THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO HAPPEN AS WE GET TOWARDS THE FALL.

THERE IS A VERY LARGE GROUP OF US THAT HAVE WORKED FOR THE PRESIDENT SORT OF LIKE A TRUMP RECOVERY UNIT, IF YOU WILL.

IT INCLUDES PEOPLE LIKE SECRETARY ESPER, GENERAL MILLIE, GENERAL JOHN KELLY, BILL BARR.

THERE IS A WHOLE HOST OF US, JOHN BOLTON, WHO ARE GOING TO GO OUT THERE AND PASSIONATELY EXPLAIN TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THE SYSTEMIC DANGER OF MR. TRUMP.

AND I THINK THE PROBLEM THAT EUROPEANS HAVE WITH ALL OF THIS IS THAT EUROPEANS IN GENERAL HAVE MORE HEREDITARY MEMORY OF THE SCOURGE OF FASCISM AND THE DESTRUCTION THAT FASCISM CAUSED ON THE CONTINENT.

OF COURSE, THE UNITED STATES, WE AVOIDED THAT.

FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT WAS ABLE TO PUT DOWN THE AMERICA FIRST MOMENT, WHICH WAS LED BY PEOPLE LIKE CHARLES LINDBERGH AND FATHER COUGHLIN, ET CETERA.

WE DON'T HAVE THE MEMORY.

WE DON'T HAVE THE FIELD TRIP OF GOING PLACES THAT WERE DESTROYED AS A RESULT OF FASCIST LEADERS DECLARING WAR ON WESTERN LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES.

AND I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A PROBLEM FOR THE COUNTRY.

BUT AGAIN, THERE WILL BE A VERY LARGE GROUP OF US COME THE FALL OUT ON THE AIRWAVES, ON THE CAMPAIGN, EXPLAINING TO PEOPLE THE SYSTEMIC DANGER THAT DONALD TRUMP REPRESENTS TO THE INSTITUTIONS OF THE DEMOCRACY, AND BASICALLY, TO THE FABRIC OF AMERICA, THE CHECKS AND BALANCES IN THE SYSTEM, THAT HAVE MADE PEOPLE FREE IN THIS COUNTRY AND BY AND LARGE VERY PROSPEROUS.

>> IT'S VERY INTERESTING YOU MENTION THOSE INDIVIDUALS, YOURSELF INCLUDED WHO ARE GOING TO DO THIS.

BECAUSE I WAS GOING ASK YOU, IN THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION, THERE WERE A LOT OF ACCOMPLISHED INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE PUT IN VERY IMPORTANT CABINET POSITIONS, AND PEOPLE THOUGHT, WELL, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST -- I HATE TO SAY THIS -- THERE WERE ADULTS IN THE ROOM, AND THEY WERE ABLE TO PUT THE BRAKES ON ANY KIND OF COMPLETELY CRAZY BEHAVIOR.

DO YOU THINK A -- ARE THERE THOSE PEOPLE, AND WOULD A PRESIDENT TRUMP CHOOSE THAT KIND OF, YOU KNOW, CHARACTER TO BE HIS MAIN CABINET OFFICIALS IN A SECOND TERM?

>> SO I'M A LITTLE BIT OF A CONTRARIAN ON THIS.

I DON'T BUY INTO THE PUNDITRY ARGUMENT THAT HE IS JUST GOING TO PICK LOYALISTS.

FIRST OF ALL, THESE AREN'T WELL RESUMED PEOPLE, THESE LOYALISTS.

AND SECONDARILY, MR. TRUMP HAS ALWAYS BEEN A STATUS SEEKER.

AND HE IS SOMEBODY THAT WILL WANT RESUMES IN HIS CABINET.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, IF HE DOES WIN, AND I PREDICT THAT HE WON'T, THERE WILL BE PEOPLE THAT WILL BE GRAVITATED TO THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT, MUCH THE WAY MANY OF US WERE WHERE WE THOUGHT THERE WAS A CALL TO SERVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, AND NOT REALIZING THE FULL INSANITY THAT MR. TRUMP REPRESENTED.

AND SO PEOPLE WILL DO THAT.

OBVIOUSLY, KEVIN McCARTHY IS FLYING AROUND WITH HIM ON THE TRUMP PLANE.

HE COULD POTENTIALLY BE HIS CHIEF OF STAFF.

JOHN PAULSON, WHO WAS A HEDGE FUND BILLIONAIRE, HAS BEEN CITED TO BE POTENTIALLY THE TREASURY OF THE SECRETARY.

SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY.

SO I DON'T BUY THE ARGUMENT THAT IT WILL JUST BE LOYALISTS.

MR. TRUMP DOESN'T HAVE THAT TYPE OF PERSONALITY.

HE'LL BRING IN PEOPLE THAT HE THINKS ARE WELL RESUMED.

>> OKAY.

WELL, LET'S THEN TALK ABOUT ISSUES FOR A MOMENT.

I WILL GET TO YOU AND WHAT YOU LEARNED IN THE CAMPAIGN IN THOSE 11 DAYS IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, LET'S JUST GO TO FOREIGN POLICY.

SO IF I REMEMBER RIGHTLY, WHEN I WAS COVERING THE FIRST TERM, HIS ONLY TERM, HE BASICALLY PROMISED TO SOLVE THE ISRAEL-PALESTINIAN CONFLICT WITH THE DEAL OF THE CENTURY.

AYATOLLAH'S REGIME IN IRAN BY PULLING OUT OF THE NUCLEAR DEAL AND APPLYING MAXIMUM PRESSURE.

OF COURSE NONE THAT OF HAPPENED.

HE NOW SAYS HE COULD SETTLE THE UKRAINE WAR IN 24 HOURS.

NOBODY ACTUALLY BELIEVES THAT'S POSSIBLE.

DOES HE HAVE A WORLD VIEW THAT SHAPES FOREIGN POLICY?

AND HOW DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WHO SAW WHAT HAPPENED LAST TIME, AND LET'S NOT EVEN GO INTO NATO.

WE'VE GONE OVER THAT MANY, MANY TIMES.

HE THREATENED THE SANCTITY OF NATO, QUESTIONS THE IDEA OF ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL ARTICLE 5.

>> WELL, HE DOES HAVE A WORLD VIEW.

YOU LEFT OUT THAT HE WAS GOING TO BALANCE THE BUDGET IN FOUR YEARS, BUT HE PUT $7.8 TRILLION ON TOP OF THE OTHER BUDGET DEFICITS.

HIS WORLD VIEW THANKFULLY IS NOT WELL ARTICULATED BY HIM, BUT THE TRUMP WORLD VIEW AND HIS ACOLYTE STEVE BANNON IS TO BRING THE UNITED STATES BACK TO THE 1890s, TO WALL IT OFF FROM THE REST OF THE GLOBAL CIVILIZATION BOTH PHYSICALLY AND METAPHORICALLY, AND TO DISAVOW THE DAVID RICARDO PRINCIPLE OF GLOBAL TRAIT.

SO MR. TRUMP WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOMETHING LIKE WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE U.S.

IN 1890, WHERE 97% OF THE GOODS AND SERVICES THAT WERE MANUFACTURED IN THE U.S.

WERE CONSUMED BY AMERICANS.

HE'LL HAVE A VERY STRONG ANTI-IMMIGRATION STANCE AS WELL.

AND THIS WILL BE A DISASTER FOR THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY.

IT WILL ULTIMATELY BE A LONG-TERM DISASTER FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

THE GOOD NEWS IS HE COULDN'T REALLY ACCOMPLISH THAT IN FOUR YEARS, BUT THE REAL FEAR IS IF YOU KNOW THE MAN, HE WILL DO EVERYTHING HE CAN TO EXPAND EXECUTIVE POWERS.

HE'S GOT A VERY STRONG TEAM OF PEOPLE WORKING FOR HIM ON HIS CAMPAIGN THAT BELIEVE IN THE EXPANSION OF WHAT THEY'RE CALLING UNITARY EXECUTIVE POWER.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO FIGHT AGAINST TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THE MARVEL OF THE AMERICAN REPUBLICAN SYSTEM ARE THESE WONDERFUL CHECKS AND BALANCES AND THE SEPARATION OF POWERS IN OUR CONSTITUTION.

MR. TRUMP DEPLORES THAT.

HE DOESN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND IT.

BUT HE'LL GO AFTER THAT.

AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO STOP HIM.

>> AGAIN, I WANT TO TAKE YOU BACK TO FOREIGN POLICY, BECAUSE HE MADE VERY GRANDIOSE GESTURES.

I REMEMBER THE HELSINKI PRESSER IN WHICH HE DID SIDE WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN'S VIEW OF THE WORLD AGAINST HIS OWN INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.

BUT HE ALSO NOTORIOUSLY ATTACKED VERBALLY AT THE U.N. KIM JONG-UN OF NORTH KOREA, AND THEN WENT TO THREE MEETINGS WITH HIM IN WHICH HE PROMISED THAT THE TWO OF THEM HAD A LOVELY BROMANCE THAT WAS GOING TO END THE KOREAN PENINSULA CONFLICT.

BUT I SPOKE TO -- OF COURSE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN -- THE FOREIGN SOUTH KOREA MINISTER TOLD ME THAT THE HANOI SUMMIT AND ALL OF THOSE IN 2019 OR WHATEVER, SHE SAID IT WAS A DEBACLE, AND THIS IS WHY.

HERE IS WHAT SHE SAID.

>> THE PRESIDENT HAS TREMENDOUS DESIRE, INTENTION TO DO SOMETHING, BUT THERE WAS VERY LITTLE BACKUP AT THE WORKING LEVEL.

AND THIS IS -- THIS IS THE TYPICAL TRUMP LEADERSHIP ON THESE ISSUES.

WILL BUT VERY LITTLE FOLLOW-UP AND SUPPORT FROM THE WORKING LEVELS.

SO THAT'S A HUGE LESSON WHEN WE EVER GO BACK TO A PHASE OF ENGAGEMENT WITH NORTH KOREA.

>> SO I FOUND THAT QUITE EXTRAORDINARY FOR A CHIEF DIPLOMAT OF A COUNTRY TO SAY THAT ABOUT A FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT.

AND IT'S POSSIBLE THAT NORTH KOREA -- INTELLIGENCE TYPES IN THE U.S. SAY THIS COULD BE ANOTHER MAJOR PROBLEM.

THEY HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

WHAT HAPPENS IF TRUMP INSERTS HIMSELF INTO ISRAEL-PALESTINE OR NORTH KOREA IN A SECOND TERM?

WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD COME OF IT?

>> WELL, LET'S TAKE THEM SIMPLY.

ON THE NORTH KOREAN ISSUE, I THINK THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS ULTIMATELY BEEN RIGHT.

60 OR 70 YEARS OF THIS TYPE OF ENGAGEMENT WE'VE HAD WITH NORTH KOREA IS THE BEST WE COULD DO.

I DON'T THINK IF HE TRIES TO REENGAUGE WITH THE NORTH KOREAN DICTATOR THAT ANYTHING POSITIVE IS GOING TO COME OUT OF IT.

THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN ISSUE IS MORE TENDER AND WAY MORE SENSITIVE.

BUT REMEMBER, MR. TRUMP LOVES VLADIMIR PUTIN.

HE SPEAKS ABOUT HIM IN THESE GRANDIOSE TERMS.

HE WANTS TO BE PART OF THE AXIS OF AUTOCRACY, WHICH IS WHY HE'S ALWAYS PRAISING THESE DICTATORS.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE PUTIN REGIME IS VERY CLOSE TO THE IRANIANS, AND THE IRANIANS, AS YOU KNOW, AND I KNOW, THEY HAVE IN THEIR CONSTITUTION THE EXPORTATION OF THEIR REVOLUTION, BUT THEY ALSO WANT TO WIPE ISRAEL OFF THE MAP.

SO HIS BUDDY PUTIN HAS AN OWESY FROM THE IRANIANS.

MR. PUTIN IS VERY, VERY TRANSACTIONAL.

IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM TO BACK A TRUCK OVER THE ISRAELI NATION OR THE ISRAELI PEOPLE.

THE PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT ABOUT HIM.

HE TURNS ON EVERYBODY.

>> OKAY.

>> AND SO THIS IS A VERY DANGEROUS THING.

HE WOULD BE HORRIBLE FOR ISRAEL.

PARTICULARLY BECAUSE OF THIS RELATIONSHIP THAT HE WANTS TO HAVE WITH PUTIN AND THE OWESY THAT PUTIN HAS TO IRAN.

>> OKAY.

>> I WOULD BE VERY, VERY WORRIED ABOUT THIS FROM A NATIONAL SECURITY PERSPECTIVE.

>> AND BACK TO A DOMESTIC PERSPECTIVE, AND IT'S A BIG ONE.

IT APPEARS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS MISCALCULATED WHEN ESSENTIALLY BY STACKING THE COURT, THEY CAUSED THE REVERSE OF ROE V. WADE AND AMERICAN WOMEN AND GIRLS AND MANY MEN HAVE VOTED MANY TIMES AGAINST THAT.

NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TALKING ABOUT HOW HE MIGHT COME DOWN ON A NATIONAL ABORTION BAN AROUND 15 WEEKS.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT ISSUE WILL LAND HIM IN NOVEMBER?

>> SO I THINK THIS IS GOOD NEWS FOR THE DEMOCRATS AND FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

I THINK THE DYE HAS ALREADY BEEN CAST ABOUT HOW REPUBLICANS FEEL ABOUT THIS.

NO MATTER WHAT MR. TRUMP FEELS ABOUT THIS ABOUT THE IVF SITUATION OR THE ABORTION SITUATION, I BELIEVE SUBURBAN FAMILIES, NOT JUST WOMEN, BUT MEN AND WOMEN ARE GOING TO COME OUT AND CAST THEIR VOTES AGAINST HIM.

AND THAT WILL BE ONE OF THE CENTRAL REASONS.

SO LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE MIDTERMS.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD A MUCH BETTER SHOWING THAN PEOPLE HAD ANTICIPATED.

HE OUTDID PRESIDENT OBAMA AND CERTAINLY DONALD TRUMP.

AND SO FOR ME, I THINK THIS IS A CORE CRITICAL ISSUE THAT WE HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE GOING FORWARD.

AND THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT THIS EXTREMISM IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IT WILL CATCH UP TO THEM IN NOVEMBER.

>> I'VE GOT 30 SECONDS.

I DIDN'T ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE.

WHAT ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THE WHITE HOUSE MAKES YOU THINK THIS NOW?

15 SECONDS.

>> JUST THE GUY'S CRAZY.

I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO EXPLAIN IT ALL, CHRISTIANE.

YOU WOULD NEED A PHONE BOOK OF ALL THE THINGS HE'S DONE.

BUT HE IS CRAZY.

YOU DON'T NEED A LEADER LIKE THAT ON THE GLOBAL STAGE AGAIN, AND WE'RE GOING TO WORK VERY, VERY HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

>> ANTHONY SCARMUCCI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> AND NOW TO GAZA, WHERE DESPERATION IS TURNING DEADLY AS HUNGRY PEOPLE ARE FORCED TO GO TO EXTREME LENGTHS JUST TO GET SOMETHING, ANYTHING TO EAT.

JOMANA KARADSHEH HAS THIS STORY ON THE DISASTER OF AIR DROPS THAT ARE TRYING TO HELP.

AND A NOTE, OF COURSE, THEY ARE DISTURBING SCENES TO WATCH.

>> Reporter: AS THEY SPOT A PLANE AND THE AID IT BEGINS TO DROP, THEY RUN AS FAST AS THEY CAN.

IT'S THE RUSH OF A PEOPLE SO DESPERATE, SO HUNGRY THEY WOULD DO ANYTHING TO FEED THEIR CHILDREN NOW ON THE BRINK OF STARVATION.

THIS IS WHAT SURVIVAL IN GAZA HAS COME TO, FIGHTING FOR FOOD.

THAT LITTLE BIT OF AID THAT MAKES IT INTO THE NORTH WHERE MAN-MADE FAMINE NOW LOOMS.

PEOPLE CHASE PARACHUTES THAT FELL INTO THESE CHOPPY WATERS.

IT IS DESPERATION THAT DRIVES THEM INTO THE SEA.

WHAT YOU'RE ABOUT TO SEE NEXT IS DISTURBING.

IT'S THE REALITY OF A WAR GROWING MORE CRUEL BY THE DAY.

THE FASTEST, THE FITTEST EMERGE WITH BOXES OF AMERICAN MEALS READY TO EAT.

OTHERS DIDN'T MAKE IT OUT ALIVE.

PEOPLE GATHER AROUND THE THIN, FRAIL BODY OF A MAN WHO DROWNED TRYING TO REACH THAT AID.

12 PEOPLE DROWNED, ACCORDING TO PARAMEDICS.

>> Translator: THE PARACHUTES FELL INTO THE WATER, BUT PEOPLE WANT TO EAT.

THEY WENT INTO THE WATER AND DROWNED.

THE CURRENT WAS SO STRONG.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW THE SWIM.

IT'S WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU HAVE NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE.

"A MAN GOES IN SWIMMING TO GET FOOD FOR HIS CHILDREN.

HE RETURNS DEAD," THIS MAN SAYS.

"BRING US AID THROUGH THE LAND CROSSINGS.

OUR CHILDREN ARE DYING.

WE ARE DYING.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

WHERE IS THE WORLD?"

THE WORLD HAS BEEN PILING UP LIFE-SAVING AID INTO TRUCKS STUCK AT LAND CROSSINGS, SEEMINGLY POWERLESS IN THE FACE OF ISRAEL THAT'S ACCUSED OF USING STARVATION AS A WEAPON IN THIS WAR, A CHARGE IT DENIES.

FORCING THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO RESORT TO DROPPING AID FROM THE SKY.

SEVERAL COUNTRIES CARRIED OUT AID DROPS ON THIS DAY, DELIVERIES THAT HAVE BEEN CRITICIZED FOR BEING INEFFECTIVE, INSUFFICIENT AND UNSAFE.

EARLIER THIS MONTH, ANOTHER AIR DROP DISASTER WHEN A PARACHUTE FAILED AND EIGHT PACKAGES CAME CRASHING DOWN, KILLING AT LEAST FIVE PEOPLE.

IT'S A WAR THAT'S TESTING HUMANITY, AND MANY SAY THIS IS WHAT FAILURE LOOKS LIKE.

>> JOMANA KARADSHEH REPORTING THERE.

>>> NOW, LONG BEFORE TWITTER TROLLS AND ONLINE HATE CAMPAIGNS, THERE WAS PEN AND PAPER.

AND THOUGH THE TECH MAY HAVE BEEN A LITTLE MORE RUDIMENTARY, PEOPLE COULD BE JUST AS.

>> HAVE.

AND THAT IS THE INSPIRATION BEHIND A STRING OF ANONYMOUS POISON PEN LETTERS IN A NEW COMEDY CALLED "WICKED LITTLE LETTERS."

IT BRINGS A REAL-LIFE SCANDAL THAT ROCKED THE SLEEPY TOWN OF LITTLEHAMPTON ON THE ENGLISH CLOSE IN THE 1920s TO THE BIG SCREEN NOW.

HERE IS A CLIP.

>> THE MYSTERY OF THE OBSCENE LITTLEHAMPTON LETTERS IS CAUSING WIDESPREAD UNREST ACROSS THE NATION.

>> ADA SWANN LOVES IT MORE THAN CHRISTMAS DAY.

>> ONLY WORDS, MOTHER.

>> TWO BUCKS, TEN A WEEK MINIMUM.

>> I THINK IT'S JUST JEALOUS.

>> ROSE GOODING, YOU ARE WRITING THESE WICKED LITTLE LETTERS TO EDITH SWANN.

>> WHY WOULD I SEND A LETTER WHEN I CAN JUST SAY IT?

>> IT'S A WHODUNIT.

I RECENTLY TALKED ABOUT IT WITH THE OSCAR-WINNING STAR OF THE FILM, OLIVIA COLMAN, AND DIRECTOR THEA SHARROCK.

WELCOME TO YOU BOTH AND THANKS FOR BEING ON WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> OLIVIA COLMAN, YOU HAVE BEEN IN OUR LIVES WITH MANY, MANY ICONIC ROLES, THE QUEEN AND MANY QUEENS.

IT'S BEEN INCREDIBLE.

OSCARS AND ALL THE REST.

BUT THIS IS A LITTLE FILM ABOUT LITTLE LETTERS.

WHAT INSPIRED YOU?

WHAT DREW YOU TO THIS SCRIPT?

>> I JUST THOUGHT IT WOULD BE FUN, QUITE SIMPLY.

YOU KNOW, SORT OF SOMETIMES YOU DO A LOT OF HEAVY WORK, AND THEN SOMETHING LIGHT COMES ALONG.

YES, THAT'S WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO NOW.

AND IT WAS IN THE UK, WHICH IS A PLUS, SO I DIDN'T HAVE TO BE AWAY FROM MY FAMILY.

AND I'D NEVER HEARD OF THIS STORY.

AND TO FIND OUT THAT IT'S TRUE, I ENJOYED IT SO MUCH.

AND I THINK THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT IT WAS.

>> OKAY.

I'M GOING GET TO THE STORY IN A MOMENT.

BUT THEA, FOR YOU AS THE DIRECTOR, HOW DID YOU GET INTRODUCED TO IT?

WHAT MADE YOU TURN THIS INTO A MOVIE?

>> WELL, I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO RECEIVE IT NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT IT EXCEPT FOR OLIVIA WAS ALREADY PLAYING THE LEAD.

SO I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE GENRE WAS.

I HAD NO IDEA IT WAS BASED ON A TRUE STORY.

I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT.

BUT I READ IT WITH OLIVIA BOTH IN MIND, AND I COULD HEAR HER VOICE, WHICH WAS A GREAT START.

I HAD NO EXPECTATIONS OF IT BEING ANYTHING LIKE AS FUNNY AS IT IS, WHICH FOR A DIRECTOR TO LAUGH OUT LOUD ON YOUR FIRST READING IS PURE JOY.

AND THEN TO DISCOVER AFTER THAT THAT IT WAS BASED ON A TRUE STORY, AND SORT OF CRAZY MISHAPS THAT HAPPENED WITHIN IT, AS WELL AS PROBABLY THE THING THAT DREW ME TO IT MOST OF ALL WAS A, THE COMEDY.

BUT ALSO, THERE IS ROOM FOR FANTASTIC PERFORMANCES.

>> IN PRISON, ROSE MIGHT FIND SOME KINDRED SPIRITS.

>> IN PRISON?

>> NO, NO, NOT THE MURDERERS OR THE RAPISTS.

MAYBE THE DRUNKS OR QUEERS MAYBE?

JUST TRYING TO FIND A BRIGHT SIDE.

>> THE UNRAVELING OF WHO THIS WOMAN.

IN FACT, ALL THE CHARACTERS WERE ALREADY SO WELL -- WELL, THEY WERE OBVIOUSLY BASED ON REAL PEOPLE.

BUT JOHNNY SWEET, THE WRITER, HAD DONE THE MOST BEAUTIFUL JOB OF CREATING BOTH A COMEDY AND ALSO A DRAMA.

THERE ARE INCREDIBLY INTIMATE, VULNERABLE MOMENTS INSIDE, YOU KNOW, GREAT MOMENTS OF COMEDY.

AND THEN ON TOP OF ALL OF THAT, FOR IT TO BE REAL, FOR ME IT WAS A NO-BRAINER.

>> LET'S JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE STORY LINE.

SO OLIVIA, YOU PLAY KIND OF A BUTTONED UP LADY OF THE ERA IN THIS SEASIDE TOWN.

THIS VERY GREGARIOUS IRISH YOUNG GIRL COMES TO THE TOWN PLAYED BY JESSE BUCKLEY.

YOU BECOME FRIENDS, AND THEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH A STRING OF POISONOUS HORRIBLE LETTERS THAT ARE BEING DIRECTED TO YOU.

AND IT'S ABOUT WHO DID IT.

SO IT'S PRETTY HILARIOUS, AND THERE IS QUITE A LOT OF BIG SCENES OF SORT OF FEMALE CONFRONTATIONS THAT WE DON'T GENERALLY SEE IN MOVIES, ESPECIALLY NOT AT THAT TIME.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> YES.

SO EDITH SWANN, WHO I PLAY, ON THE FACE OF IT IS PIOUS CHRISTIAN, SORT OF THE PERFECT WOMAN OF THAT TIME AND VERY WELL-BEHAVED, LIVES STILL WITH HER PARENTS, AND STILL WEIRDLY SLEEPS IN THE SAME ROOM AS HER PARENTS.

>> OH, THAT'S WEIRD.

>> WEIRD.

AND THEN JESSE PLAYS ROSE GOODLEY, WHO IN THAT PERIOD EVERYBODY LOOKED AFTER A SHOCKING EXAMPLE OF WOMAN HOOD AND AN UNMARRIED MOTHER.

BUT THESE TWO WOMEN BECOME FRIENDS.

THEY SORT OF SEE EACH OTHER, BECAUSE WE FIND OUT THAT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, EDITH IS NOT HAVING A NICE TIME.

AND IT'S NOT A PARTICULARLY LOVING HOUSEHOLD.

AND THIS FRIENDSHIP SORT OF STARTS UP, BUT THEN SOMETHING HAPPENS WHICH -- I'M NOT SURE WHAT HAPPENED.

>> DON'T DO SPOILERS.

>> OKAY.

I'M GOING TO TAKE IT FROM THERE, BECAUSE THIS INVESTIGATION THEN STARTS WHEN YOU START GETTING THESE POISON LETTERS.

THOSE ARE THE WICKED LITTLE LETTERS OF THE TITLE.

AND ROSE, JESSE GETS ARRESTED BECAUSE SHE IS THOUGHT TO HAVE DONE THIS.

I WANT TO PLAY ONE OF THE CLIPS.

>> SIR?

YOU'RE CHARGING HER?

>> UNDER LIBEL, NOT A SMALL OFFENSE.

>> NO, IT ISN'T.

BUT WHAT'S THE EVIDENCE?

>> MOTIVE, TIMELINE.

>> LET ME OUT OF HERE!

[ BLEEP ] [ BLEEP ] [ BLEEP ].

>> SIMILARITIES IN THE LANGUAGE.

>> UH-HUH.

>> SO I CAN SEE YOU BOTH LAUGHING AS YOU'RE LISTENING AND REMEMBERING.

SO MUCH OF IT WAS BLEEPED THAT WE CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON.

WAS THERE A LOT OF THAT ON SET?

ARE YOU ALL PRETTY POTTY-MOUTHED AND WERE ALLOWED TO DELIVER?

>> SHALL WE TELL THE TRUTH?

>> GO ON, THEA.

>> OLIVIA IS INCREDIBLY POTTY MOUTH.

>> IS SHE?

BUTTER WOULDN'T MELT IN YOUR MOUTH.

>> THANK YOU.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> NO, WE ALL ARE.

>> WE ALL ARE.

>> PROUDLY.

>> YEAH.

>> I THINK IT'S A NICE SEASONING OF LANGUAGE.

>> ISN'T IT A BIT RESTRICTIVE WHEN YOU GO TO TRY TO PROMOTE THIS THING AND YOU CAN'T REALLY SHOW ANY SCENES OR TALK IN THAT VERNACULAR?

>> WELL, THAT'S WHY WE DON'T DO LIVE TELLY.

[ LAUGHTER ] I GET QUITE NERVOUS, AND I GET A BIT MORE SWEARY WHEN I'M NERVOUS.

I'M REALLY TRYING NOT TO SAY SIGNIFICANT BAD NOW.

>> YOU'RE DOING REALLY WELL.

YOU'RE DOING REALLY [ BLEEP ] WELL.

>> I KNOW YOU CAN BLEEP IT OUT.

SO SORRY.

>> WHAT ARE YOUR FAVORITE SWEAR WORDS.

>> OH, NOW, SEE.

>> CAN WE SAY IT?

>> AMERICAN AUDIENCES REALLY AREN'T KEEN ON MY FAVORITE WORD.

CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT MY FAVORITE WORD IS?

>> I'M NOT GOING TO SAY IT.

I WILL BE LAMBASTED AND PILLORIED.

>> WELL, I DO MAINTAIN IT'S ACTUALLY QUITE A CULTURED WORD BECAUSE CHAUCER DID USE IT.

BUT [ BLEEP ] IS MY FAVORITE.

>> OKAY.

WELL, WE'LL BE BLEEPING THAT.

THEA, DO YOU HAVE ONE?

>> I THOUGHT YOU MIGHT.

>> WELL, LIE TELECOMMUNICATION COUNTERBALANCE.

SO I GO WITH BOLLOCKS.

>> OKAY.

I THINK WE CAN KEEP THAT ONE.

YEAH, SORRY.

THEA WINS.

OLIVIA, YOU'RE CLEAN OUT OF LUCK.

I'M GOING PLAY ANOTHER SCENE.

IT'S YOU AND ROSE OUTSIDE THE HOUSES.

HERE GOES IT.

>> SORRY FOR YOUR TROUBLES.

I MEAN IT.

SHE WAS A GOOD LADY, YOUR MOTHER.

HOW HAVE YOU BEEN GETTING ON?

>> OH, I'VE BEEN FEELING GRAND, THANK YOU.

HOW ABOUT YOU?

>> I'M A WEE BIT PREOCCUPIED.

>> YES, I SEE THEY TRUMPET ME IN PARLIAMENT.

>> THERE A RANGE OF OPINIONS.

>> WHERE DID YOU LEARN TO READ?

>> A LOCAL PRIEST TAUGHT ME.

AT LEAST HE SAID HE WAS A PRIEST.

ASKED ME TO ELOPE TO MOROCCO IN THE END.

HE WAS A FINE TUTOR OF LETTERS.

HOW ABOUT YOURSELF?

>> I USED TO HELP MY FATHER WITH THE SIGN WRITING.

FROM A VERY EARLY AGE, I DID ALL THE ONE FOR THE DAIRY WHEN I WAS ONLY 8.

OH, WOULD YOU RETURN MY PATTY PANS BEFORE THE TRIAL NEXT WEEK?

JUST IN CASE I DON'T SEE YOU FOR A LONG WHILE AFTERWARDS.

TA.

>> SO WE'RE OBVIOUSLY NOT GOING DO A SPOILER ALERT.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO SAY WHO IS THE WRITER OF THESE POISONOUS LETTER, BUT MORE SERIOUSLY, YOU DO PLAY WOMEN OF A CERNER RA, BOTH YOU HAVE IN THAT FILM.

AND OLIVIA, YOU PLAYED WOMEN THROUGHOUT MANY, MANY ERAS.

YOUR ROLES HAVE BEEN VERY EMBLEMATIC AND ICONIC.

WHAT YOU SAYING, I GUESS, OR WHAT IS THE FILM SAYING ABOUT WOMEN OF THAT ERA AND THE PROGRESS?

>> I THINK THERE IS AN ASSUMPTION THAT WOMEN IN THE 1920s WOULDN'T HAVE SWORN.

I LOVE -- MY MOM SAID TO ME WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER, SHE SAID EVERY GENERATION THINKS THEY'VE ENVENTED SEX.

AND I THINK WE FEEL SIMILARLY ABOUT BAD LANGUAGE.

BUT THERE WAS A HUGE INCREASE IN SWEARING AFTER THE FIRST WORLD WAR APPARENTLY.

I THINK THIS SORT OF EXPERIENCES THAT HAPPENED, PEOPLE THOUGHT I NEED SOME KIND OF A RELEASE.

SO LANGUAGE -- WHAT AM I TRYING TO SAY?

LANGUAGE -- >> WELL, THERE WAS ALSO A MASSIVE INCREASE IN POISON PEN LETTERS.

>> RELEASE OF FRUSTRATION.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO WHETHER IT WAS SPOKEN OR WRITTEN, THAT'S WHERE THE STORY CAME FROM.

>> AND THEA, IN FACT, AND WE SORT OF SAID BLITHELY THAT BEFORE THERE WAS TWITTER AND TROLLING AND SOCIAL MEDIA, THERE WERE POISON PEN LETTERS.

THIS ALSO IS VERY RELEVANT TO TODAY.

>> YES.

>> THEY'RE THE OBVIOUS COMPARISONS ARE, THAT 100 YEARS AGO, POISON PEN LETTERS WERE HAPPENING, WHICH HURT PEOPLE, AND THERE WERE PRISON SENTENCES HANDED OUT.

100 YEARS LATER, YOU'D HOPED WE HAVE LEARNT FROM THAT.

WE HAVEN'T.

IN FACT, WE'VE GOTTEN MUCH WORSE.

>> WELL, NO REPERCUSSIONS NOW.

>> AND SO MUCH EASIER.

THAT'S THE BIG THING.

IF YOU WANT TO SAY SOMETHING, HURT SOMEBODY, OFFEND SOMEBODY, YOU CAN DO IT PUBLICLY, AND YOU CAN DO IT IN A SECOND, AND IT CAN GO OUT ACROSS THE WORLD.

>> YEAH.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, ADVANCEMENT IN ONE SENSE AND WHAT FEELS LIKE NO LESSONS LEARNED AT ALL IN ANOTHER.

BUT PERHAPS THAT'S HUMANITY.

THAT'S JUST THE WAY WE ARE.

>> AND THEA, YOU BEGAN YOUR CAREER WITH AMAZING THEATER HERE IN THE UK.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU SEE IN WHAT YOU'VE DONE NOT JUST FROM WHERE YOU STARTED, BUT WHERE YOU ARE NOW, WHETHER ROLES FOR WOMEN ARE BEGINNING TO BE TAKEN AS SERIOUSLY AS THEY SHOULD, BECAUSE WOMEN ARE, THEY CONSIDERED NOW BIG BOX OFFICE DRAWS?

>> I WOULD SAY YES.

>> AND ACTUALLY, RESEARCH SUGGESTS THAT THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN BIG BOX OFFICE DRAWS, BUT THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO SAY DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE PAY DISPARITY, BUT MALE ACTORS GET PAID MORE BECAUSE THEY USED TO SAY THEY DRAW IN THE AUDIENCES.

AND ACTUALLY, THAT HASN'T BEEN TRUE FOR DECADES.

BUT THEY STILL LIKE TO USE THAT AS A REASON TO NOT PAY WOMEN AS MUCH AS THEIR MALE COUNTERPARTS IN OUR INDUSTRY.

>> LET'S ASK THEA, TELL ME, DO YOU HAVE A PAY DISPARITY?

YOU'RE AN OSCAR WINNING ACTRESS, OLIVIA.

>> I'M VERY AWARE THAT IF I WAS OLIVER COLLMAN, I'D BE LEARNING A [ BLEEP ] LOT MORE THAN I AM.

>> REALLY?

>> ABSOLUTELY YES.

I'M AWARE.

I KNOW OF ONE PAY DISPARITY WHICH IS A 12,000% DIFFERENCE.

>> 12,000%.

GOSH.

>> DO THE MATHS.

I KNOW.

>> SO SOPHIA, ON THAT MOAT, OBVIOUSLY "BARBIE" WAS THE BIGGEST GROSSING MOVIE OF THE YEAR.

YEAH, ALL WOMEN ALL THE TIME PLUS THE FABULOUS KEN.

DO YOU THINK THAT EMPOWERS PEOPLE LIKE YOU TO GO OUT WITH MORE OF THESE KINDS OF SCRIPTS?

>> I REALLY HOPE SO.

AND I DO -- I FEEL AS THOUGH THAT THERE HAS DEFINITELY BEEN A CHANGE.

I WOULD SAY LOOKING BACK OVER THE LAST 10, 15 YEARS, CERTAINLY IN THEATER AND IN FILM NOW TOO WITHOUT QUESTION AND TV, I THINK YOU COME ACROSS MANY MORE WOMEN IN POWERFUL POSITIONS, IN DECISION MAKING POSITIONS, AS WELL AS IN THE CREATIVE SIDE OF THINGS.

SO FOR SURE, WHEN I WAS KIND OF GROWING UP WITHIN THE INDUSTRY, THERE WERE HARDLY EVER, I NEVER REALLY CAME ACROSS MANY FEMALE DIRECTORS WHO WERE ALSO MOTHERS.

I CAME ACROSS VARIOUS WOMEN WHO HAD CHOSEN TO HAVE CHILDREN AND THEN FELT THEY COULDN'T CARRY ON WITH THEIR JOB, OR WOMEN WHO HAD CHOSEN NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN IN ORDER TO KEEP GOING WITH THEIR JOB.

SO THAT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR THINGS THAT I FEEL HAS SHIFTED HUGELY.

>> WELL, LOOK, ON THAT NOTE, THEA SHARROCK, OLIVIA COLMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

"WICKED LITTLE LETTERS."

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> AND THAT FILM IS OUT NOW IN THE UK.

RELEASES IN THE UNITED STATES THIS FRIDAY.

>>> WELL, WHETHER IT'S EXPLETIVE FILLED LETTER WRITING OR THE KIND OF POLITICAL CAMPAIGNING WE DISCUSSED EARLIER IN THE PROGRAM, THERE IS ONE SKILL THEY BOTH REQUIRE, AND THAT IS EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION.

OF COURSE, THROUGHOUT HISTORY, AND STILL TODAY, IT'S A TOOL OF THE POWERFUL FOR BOTH GOOD AND BAD.

BUT IT'S ALSO CRUCIAL IN ALL OF OUR DAILY LIVES, IN THE WORKPLACE, IN OUR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS, AND MORE THAN EVER ONLINE.

SO HOW CAN WE COMMUNICATE BETTER AND MAKE THAT A FORCE FOR POSITIVE CHANGE?

AUTHOR CHARLIES DUHIGG EXPLORES THIS QUESTION IN HIS NEW BOOK "SUPERCOMMUNICATORS."

AND HERE HE IS SPEAKING TO WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND CHARLIES DUHIGG, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO THIS BOOK "SUPERCOMMUNICATORS," IT'S ALL ABOUT HOW TO HAVE A GREAT CONVERSATION, HOW TO CONVINCE PEOPLE.

TELL ME, WHAT IS THE POINT OF A CONVERSATION?

>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

THE POINT OF A CONVERSATION IS TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, RIGHT?

IT'S NOT TO CONVINCE YOU THAT I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG OR THAT YOU SHOULD LIKE ME OR THINK THAT I'M SMART.

THE POINT OF A CONVERSATION, AND THE CONVERSATION IS A SUCCESS IF I UNDERSTAND HOW YOU SEE THE WORLD, AND I'M ABLE TO SPEAK IN A WAY THAT YOU UNDERSTAND HOW I SEE THE WORLD.

AND THAT MEANS WE CAN WALK AWAY FROM THE CONVERSATION DISAGREEING WITH EACH OTHER, AND IT'S STILL A SUCCESS.

>> BUT WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT IS CONNECTION.

WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT WHEN WE HAVE CONVERSATIONS IS THAT OUR NEURAL ACTIVITY BECOMES SIMILAR.

AND THAT MAKES SENSE.

BECAUSE WHEN I DESCRIBE AN EMOTION TO YOU OR AN IDEA, YOU ACTUALLY EXPERIENCE THAT EMOTION OR THAT IDEA A LITTLE BIT.

WITHIN PSYCHOLOGY AND NEUROLOGY, THIS IS KNOWN AS NEURAL ENTRAINMENT.

IT'S AT THE CORE OF HOW WE COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER.

SO WHEN WE MAKE THAT CONNECTION, WHEN WE HAVE A GREAT CONVERSATION, WHEN WE FEEL LIKE WE'RE ON THE SAME WAVELENGTH, IT FEELS WONDERFUL, BECAUSE OUR BRAINS HAVE EVOLVED TO CRAVE THAT KIND OF COMMUNICATION AND CONNECTION.

>> YOU SAY THAT PEOPLE ARE HARDWIRED.

SOME PEOPLE ARE REALLY HARD-WIRED TO DO THESE CONNECTIONS.

YOU AND I HAVE COVERED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE TECH INDUSTRY AND OTHER THINGS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHEN KNOW WHO ARE NOT HARD-WIRED.

EVEN THE SMARTEST OF THEM, ELON MUSK, BILL GATES, ARE THERE PEOPLE WHO ARE HARDWIRED?

AND WHAT CAN YOU DO IF YOU'RE NOT HARDWIRED FOR THIS?

>> WE'RE ACTUALLY ALL HARD-WIRED FOR THIS.

EVEN BILL GATES AND ELON MUSK, THOSE FOLKS WHO CAN SEEM AWKWARD IN AN UNFAMILIAR SETTING, THEY ARE HARD-WIRED FOR CONVERSATION AND CONNECTION AS MUCH AS ANY OF US.

SO CONSISTENT "SUPERCOMMUNICATORS," THERE WAS A STUDY ASKING IF THEY WERE ALWAYS GOOD AT COMMUNICATION.

AND WHAT THEY SAID IS NO.

WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL, I WAS UNPOPULAR.

SO I HAD TO PAY ATTENTION TO HOW OTHER KIDS COMMUNICATED WITH EACH OTHER.

OR MY PARENTS GOT DIVORCED AND I HAD TO PLAY PEACEMAKER BETWEEN THEM.

WHAT THEY'RE REALLY SAYING IS THERE WAS A TIME IN MY LIFE THAT I HAD TO THINK ABOUT COMMUNICATION, AND THINKING ABOUT COMMUNICATION MADE ME BETTER AT IT.

IT MADE ME RECOGNIZE THERE WERE THESE SKILLS THAT WOULD HELP ME CONNECT WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

WHETHER IT'S BILL GATES OR ELON MUSK OR BARACK OBAMA OR BILL CLINTON, ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE AT TIMES HAVE BEEN SUPER COMMUNICATORS, BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT DEEPLY ABOUT HOW COMMUNICATION OUGHT TO OCCUR.

AND WHEN WE STOP THINKING ABOUT IT, WHEN WE LET OURSELVES RELAX, AND WE SOME HAVING DIALOGUES AND LISTENING AND STOP ASKING QUESTIONS, WE CAN BECOME A BAD COMMUNICATOR AGAIN.

BUT IF WE UNDERSTAND THE SKILLS THAT MAKE US BETTER AT COMMUNICATION, IF WE THINK DEEPLY ABOUT THOSE SKILLS, THAT'S WILL MAKE US A SUPER COMMUNICATOR, REGARDLESS OF WHO WE ARE.

>> OKAY.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THOSE SKILLS THAT YOU SAY EACH OF US CAN DEVELOP.

NAME A COUPLE OF SKILLS AND HOW PEOPLE SHOULD TRY TO DEVELOP THEM.

>> THE FIRST IS THIS THING KNOWN AS THE MATCHING PRINCIPLE OF COMMUNICATION.

AND THERE IS A STORY IN THE BOOK ABOUT THIS CIA OFFICER WHO IS JUST TERRIBLE AT HIS JOB.

HE IS TERRIBLE AT RECRUITING OVERSEAS SPICE UNTIL HE FIGURES OUT HOW TO MATCH PEOPLE.

AND MATCHING COMES FROM WHAT RESEARCH EARPS HAVE DISCOVERED THAT WE TEND TO THINK OF A DISCUSSION AS BEING ABOUT ONE THING.

BUT ACTUALLY, EVERY DISCUSSION IS MADE UP OF MULTIPLE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS.

AND THE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS TEND TO FALL INTO ONE TO THREE BUCKETS.

THERE IS PRACTICAL CONVERSATIONS WHERE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PLANS OR SOLVING PROBLEMS.

THERE IS EMOTIONAL CONVERSATIONS WHERE I TELL YOU WHAT I'M FEELING, AND I DON'T WANT YOU TO SOLVE MY FEELINGS.

I WANT YOU TO EMPATHIZE.

AND THEN THERE ARE SOCIAL CONVERSATIONS, WHICH IS HOW WE RELATE TO EACH OTHER.

AND VERY OFTEN, SUPER COMMUNICATORS KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO BE HAVING THE SAME KIND OF CONVERSATION AT THE SAME TIME IN ORDER TO CONNECT.

SO IF I COME HOME AND I START COMPLAINING ABOUT MY DAY TO MY WIFE AND I'M HAVING AN EMOTIONAL CONVERSATION, AND SHE RESPONDS WITH PRACTICAL ADVICE AND SAYS WHY DON'T YOU TAKE YOUR BOSS OUT TO LUNCH AND GET TO KNOW HIM A LITTLE BIT BETTER, THAT'S NOT GOING SOLVE THE PROBLEM FOR ME.

IN FACT, I'M NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO HEAR WHAT SHE IS SAYING.

IT'S ONLY WHEN WE'RE HAVING THE SAME KIND OF CONVERSATION THAT WE'LL BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE AND THEN WE CAN MOVE FROM EMOTIONAL TO PRACTICAL TO SOCIAL BACK TO EMOTIONAL TOGETHER.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT HOW A CIA SPY RECRUITER FIGURED THIS OUT.

I THINK HIS NAME IS JIM LAWLER IN THE BOOK.

TELL ME THAT STORY.

>> JIM LAWLER IS THIS WONDERFUL GUY WHO AT 30 YEARS OLD, HE WAS SENT OVERSEAS BY THE CIA FOR HIS FIRST ASSIGNMENT, WHICH WAS TO GO RECRUIT SPIES IN EUROPE.

AND HE WAS TERRIBLE AT IT.

HE WOULD GO TO THESE EMBASSY PARTIES AND TRY TO BUDDY UP TO PEOPLE.

AND THEY WOULD SAY THINGS I KNOW YOU'RE TRYING TO RECRUIT ME AS A SPY.

I'M GOING REPORT YOU TO THE AUTHORITIES IF YOU DON'T STOP RIGHT NOW.

EVENTUALLY THERE WAS THIS WOMAN WHO CAME TO TOWN WHO WORKED FOR HER FOREIGN MINISTRY IN A MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRY.

SO LAWLER GOES UP AND INTRODUCES HIMSELF.

AND HE GETS TO KNOW HER.

HE BEFRIENDS HER, AND EVENTUALLY HE SAYS I'M WORKING FOR THE CIA.

WILL YOU WORK WITH ME?

AND SHE PANICS.

SHE SAYS.

NO LOOK, IN MY COUNTRY, THEY MURDER PEOPLE FOR THAT.

I CAN'T PARTICIPATE IN THIS AT ALL.

SO LAWLER GOES AND HE TELLS HIS BOSSES, I TRIED TO RECRUIT THIS WOMAN AND IT DIDN'T WORK.

THEY SAY LOOK, YOU'RE GOING GET FIRED, MY FRIEND.

YOU GOT TO RECRUIT SOMEONE.

YOU'VE BEEN HERE FOR ALMOST A YEAR.

SO HE CONVINCES THIS WOMAN YASMIN TO HAVE ONE MORE DINNER WITH HIM.

AND INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MAKE ARGUMENTS WITH HER OR TRYING TO CHARM HER OR WIN HER OVER, HE JUST DECIDES LOOK, THIS IS POINTLESS.

IT'S NOT GOING WORK.

I'M GOING TO BE AS HONEST AS I CAN BE.

AND HE STARTS TELLING HOW DISAPPOINTED HE IS IN HIMSELF, HOW HE UNDERSTANDS THAT SHE'S ABOUT TO GO HOME, AND SHE FEELS LIKE SHE IS WASTING HER LIFE BECAUSE HE FEELS LIKE HE IS WASTING HIS LIFE.

ALL HE EVER WANTED TO DO WAS BE A CIA OFFICER, AND HERE HE IS TERRIBLE AT IT.

AND IT'S AT THAT MOMENT THAT YASMIN IS ABLE TO HEAR WHAT HE IS SAYING.

AND SHE SAYS I CAN HELP YOU.

I CAN BECOME AN ASSET FOR YOU.

AND SHE ENDS UP BEING THE BEST RESOURCE IN THE MIDDLE EAST OVER THE NEXT 20 YEARS.

BUT LAWLER WAS ONLY ABLE TO RECRUIT HER, SHE WAS ONLY ABLE THE HEAR WHAT LAWLER WAS SAYING WHEN HE WAS AUTHENTIC AND HONEST, AND WHEN HE ENGAGED IN THIS RECIPROCAL VULNERABILITY.

WHEN SHE SHARED SOMETHING ABOUT HERSELF, HE SHARED SOMETHING TRUE ABOUT HIMSELF.

AND IN DOING SO, THEY WERE ABLE TO FORGE A CONNECTION.

AND THAT IS TRUE FOR ALL OF US.

ALL OF US HAVE AN INSTINCT TOWARDS RECIPROCAL VULNERABILITY.

WHEN WE ARE VULNERABLE OURSELVES, WHEN WE HEAR OTHER PEOPLE'S VULNERABILITY, WE TRUST EACH OTHER MORE.

WE LIKE EACH OTHER MORE.

AND WE END UP COMMUNICATING MUCH, MUCH BETTER.

>> TELL ME HOW THIS GREW OUT OF YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE.

>> SO I WAS MADE A MANAGER AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AT ONE POINT.

AND I THOUGHT THAT I WOULD BE A GREAT MANAGER, BECAUSE I'VE HAD MANAGERS MY WHOLE LIFE.

I WENT TO A FANCY BUSINESS SCHOOL AND GOT AN MBA.

AND I WAS OKAY AT THE LOGISTICS PART.

BUT I WAS TERRIBLE AT THE COMMUNICATION PART.

JUST AWFUL AT IT.

AND THE SAME THING WOULD HAPPEN AT HOME.

I WOULD COME HOME.

I WOULD TALK TO MY WIFE, AND I WOULD COMPLAIN ABOUT MY DAY.

AND SHE WOULD SUGGEST SOME PRACTICAL ADVICE.

AND INSTEAD OF HEARING HER, I WOULD GET EVEN MORE UPSET.

WHY AREN'T YOU SUPPORTING ME?

YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE OUTRAGED ON MY BEHALF.

AND WHAT I REALIZED IS I WAS NOT HAVING CONVERSATIONS.

I WAS NOT LISTENING TO THE OTHER PERSON.

I WAS MONOLOGUING.

I WAS WAITING MY TURN TO SPEAK.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE KNOW ABOUT CONVERSATIONS IS THAT WHEN WE ASK QUESTIONS, WHEN WE ASK A SPECIAL KIND OF QUESTION KNOWN AS A DEEP QUESTION, IT TENDS TO CHANGE A MONOLOGUE INTO A DIALOGUE.

BECAUSE WE REALLY LISTEN TO THE OTHER PERSON.

AND WHEN WE PROVE THAT WE'RE LISTENING, THEY BECOME MORE WILLING TO LISTEN TO US.

AND SO IT'S TRANSFORMED HOW I COMMUNICATE.

WHEN I COME HOME NOW AND I START COMPLAINING, MY WIFE WILL OFTEN SAY DO YOU WANT ME TO LISTEN TO YOU OR DO YOU WANT ME TO HELP YOU SOLVE THIS PROBLEM TOGETHER?

AND IT FEELS WONDERFUL TO HAVE HER ASK THAT.

AND TRY AND DO THE SAME THING.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT ASKING THE DEEP QUESTION TRA CAN TRANSFORM A CONVERSATION.

GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU MEAN THAN.

>> A DEEP QUESTION IS SOMETHING THAT ASKS ABOUT OUR VALUES, OUR BELIEFS OR OUR EXPERIENCES.

THAT CAN SOUND KIND OF INTIMIDATING.

BUT IT'S ACTUALLY AS EASY IF YOU BUMP INTO SOMEONE AND THEY'RE A DOCTOR.

INSTEAD OF ASKING WHERE DO YOU PRACTICE MEDICINE?

WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL?

WHAT DO YOU LOVE ABOUT PRACTICING MEDICINE?

WHEN YOU ASK THOSE QUESTIONS, WHAT YOU'RE REALLY ASKING IS TELL ME WHO YOU ACTUALLY ARE.

TELL ME SOMETHING ABOUT YOURSELF, WHAT YOU CARE ABOUT.

IN GIN, THE PRINCIPLE IS ASKING ABOUT THE FACTS OF SOMEONE'S LIFE CAN OFTEN BE A DEAD-END.

ASKING HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THEIR LIFE INVITES THEM TO SAY SOMETHING MEANINGFUL AND REAL.

AND THEY'VE ACTUALLY STARTED TEACHING THIS IN SCHOOLS TO TEACHERS.

WHEN TEACHERS ENCOUNTER A STUDENT WHO IS HAVING A PROBLEM, THEY'LL OFTEN SAY TO THEM DO YOU WANT ME TO HELP YOU?

YOU WANT ME TO HEAR YOU, OR DO YOU WANT ME TO HUG YOU?

AND WHAT THEY'RE REALLY ASKING THERE IS WHAT KIND OF CONVERSATION DO YOU NEED TO HAVE RIGHT NOW?

AND TELL ME WHO YOU ARE, TELL ME WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO YOU.

BECAUSE WHEN WE GET ASKED THOSE DEEP QUESTIONS, THAT'S WHEN WE OPEN UP, AND WE START HAVING A REAL CONVERSATION.

>> IN YOUR BOOK, YOU HAVE A WHOLE LOT OF WONDERFUL TALES AND ANECDOTES WHETHER IT BE ON SPIES OR POLICE.

BUT YOU ALSO HAVE A LOT OF NEURAL SCIENCE.

AND YOU SAY WE'RE IN A GOLDEN AGE OF THIS NEURAL SCIENCE.

TELL ME WHAT THE NEURAL SCIENCE TAUGHT YOU.

>> WHEN WE'RE HAVING A CONVERSATION, LIKE THIS CONVERSATION RIGHT NOW, WHAT IS INTERESTING IS NEITHER OF US ARE AWARE OF IT, BUT OUR BREATH RATE HAS STARTED TO MATCH EACH OTHER.

OUR HEART RATE IS SIMILAR.

AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT'S HAPPENING INSIDE OUR BRAINS BECOMES MORE AND MORE SIMILAR.

WE BECOME WHAT'S KNOWN AS NEURALLY ENTRAINED.

AND THIS NEURAL ENTRAINMENT, IT FEELS WONDERFUL.

THAT'S WHY HAVING A GREAT CONVERSATION FEELS SO GOOD.

AND WHAT WE KNOW IS THE MORE ENTRAINED WE BECOME, THE MORE OUR THOUGHTS BECOME SIMILAR, THE MORE WE CAN UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER.

THE MORE WE HEAR EACH OTHER.

AND THAT MAKES SENSE.

BECAUSE WHEN I EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT I'M FEELING OR WHAT I'M THINKING, AND YOU EXPERIENCE THAT EMOTION A LITTLE BIT YOURSELF, OR YOU EXPERIENCE THAT IDEA, THAT CONNECTION IS WHAT IS AT THE CORE OF COMMUNICATION.

THAT'S WHAT WE MEAN WHEN WE SAY I CONNECTED AND I COMMUNICATED WITH THAT PERSON.

WE WERE ON THE SAME WAVELENGTH.

AND IT'S ACTUALLY HARDWIRED INTO OUR BRAINS NOT ONLY TO BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE THIS ENTRAINMENT, BUT TO CRAVE IT, TO WANT IT.

YOU KNOW, THE U.S.

SURGEON GENERAL SAID BEING LONELY IS THE EQUIVALENT OF SMOKING 15 CIGARETTES A DAY.

THAT'S A LOT OF CIGARETTES.

WHEN WE ARE CONNECTED TO OTHER PEOPLE, WHEN WE ARE ENTRAINED WITH THEM, WHEN WE ASK THEM QUESTIONS, WHEN WE REVEAL VULNERABLE THINGS ABOUT OURSELVES, WHEN WE'RE AUTHENTIC TOGETHER, THAT IS WHEN WE FEEL A REAL CONNECTION TO SOMEONE ELSE.

THAT'S HOW WE BECOME HAPPY AND HEALTHY AND SUCCESSFUL IN LIFE.

>> I LOVED YOUR PREVIOUS BOOK "THE POWER OF HABIT."

AND I SAW SOME CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE TWO.

EXPLAIN WHAT THE THEMES ARE THAT TRANSFER FROM THE POWER OF HABIT TO THIS BOOK.

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

AND THANK YOU FOR THAT.

THE POWER OF HABIT IS REALLY ABOUT HOW WE FORM HABITS, HOW HABITS EXIST IN OUR BRAINS.

AND IT'S VERY SELF-FOCUSED.

I REALIZED AFTER I WROTE "THE POWER OF HABIT" THAT I'D GET EMAILS FROM PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAY HEY, LOOK.

THIS IS GREAT.

IT'S HELPED ME IMPROVE MY HABITS.

BUT I'VE GOT THIS BOSS THAT IS DRIVING ME CRAZY.

HOW DO I CHANGE HIS HABITS?

THE ANSWER IS WE DO THAT THROUGH CONVERSATION, THROUGH COMMUNICATION.

SO WHAT I REALIZED IS THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CONVERSATION AND COMMUNICATION, WHEN WE IDENTIFY THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPER COMMUNICATORS AND CAN CONNECT WITH ALMOST ANYONE, THE REASON WHY THEY'RE SO GOOD AT THIS IS NOT ONLY BECAUSE THEY THINK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT COMMUNICATION, IT'S ALSO BECAUSE THEY'VE ALLOWED THOSE COMMUNICATION SKILLS TO BECOME HABITS.

AND OUR BRAINS ARE PREDISPOSED TO MAKE THESE INTO HABITS.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THE POWER OF HABITS TELLS US.

PARTICULARLY WHEN IT COMES TO COMMUNICATION, BECAUSE COMMUNICATION IS A SUPERPOWER FOR HOMO SAPIENS WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO TAKE THESE SKILLS AROUND COMMUNICATION AND MAKE THEM HASN'TS VERY, VERY EASILY.

THE KEY IS THAT WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE WHAT SKILLS ARE IMPORTANT AND WE HAVE TO PRACTICE THEM.

AND WHEN WE PRACTICE THEM, WE FIND THAT THE WORLD OPENS UP IN NEW WAYS.

>> YOU SAY THAT SUPER COMMUNICATING, OR COMMUTING IS THIS GREAT SKILL OF HOMO SAPIENS.

IT'S WHAT SETS US APART.

AND INDEED, IT'S WHAT CAUSES US TO BE A SOCIAL ANIMAL, TO FORM SOCIETIES.

AND YET NOWADAYS, OUR POLITICS, OUR SOCIETIES ARE SO TORN APART AND FRAUGHT.

WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM YOUR BOOK THAT CAN HELP OUR POLITICS NOW?

>> YEAH, IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

AND THERE IS A CHAPTER IN THE BOOK ABOUT THIS EXPERIMENT THAT WAS DONE WHERE THEY BROUGHT TOGETHER GUN RIGHTS ADVOCATES AND GUN CONTROL ACTIVISTS.

AND THEY WANTED TO SEE IF THEY COULD JUST HAVE CIVIL CONVERSATIONS.

AND BEFORE THE CONVERSATIONS START, THEY TAUGHT THEM THIS ONE PARTICULAR SKILL, KNOWN AS LOOPING FOR UNDERSTANDING.

IT'S REALLY USEFUL IN CONFLICT CONVERSATIONS.

IT HAS THREE STEPS.

THE FIRST STEP IS ASK A QUESTION, PREFERABLY A DEEP QUESTION.

THE SECOND STEP IS ONCE THAT PERSON HAS REPLIED, REPEAT BACK IN YOUR OWN WORDS WHAT YOU HEARD THEM SAY.

AND THE THIRD STEP IS ASK IF YOU GOT IT RIGHT.

NOW THE REASON WHY THIS IS SO POWERFUL IS BECAUSE IT PROVES THAT WE'RE LISTENING.

AND YOU'RE RIGHT.

WE ARE LIVING IN A WORLD RIGHT NOW THAT SEEMS POLARIZED AND DIVIDED, AND IT SEEMS LIKE YOU GO ONLINE AND PEOPLE ARE JUST "SCREAM"ING AT EACH OTHER RATHER THAN HAVING CONVERSATIONS.

BUT THERE IS A WAY AROUND THAT.

WHICH IS THAT WHEN WE PROVE TO EACH OTHER THAT WE ARE LISTENING, WHEN WE PROVE TO EACH OTHER THAT WE WANT TO UNDERSTAND, THAT MY GOAL IS NOT TO CONVINCE YOU THAT YOU'RE WRONG AND I'M RIGHT, MY GOAL TO UNDERSTAND HOW YOU SEE THE WORLD AND EXPLAIN HOW I SEE THE WORLD.

THAT'S WHEN ALL OF THE SUDDEN WE CAN START MAKING THOSE BREAKTHROUGHS.

THE THING IS, WE HAVE BEEN DOING IN FOR CENTURIES.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE UNITED STATES AND THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, THIS NATION WAS BORN AND PEOPLE WHO HATED EACH OTHER COMING TOGETHER FOR MONTHS AND HAVING THESE FIGHTS AND THESE ARGUMENTS, BUT ALSO LISTENING TO EACH OTHER, LISTENING WELL ENOUGH THAT THEY COULD WRITE A CONSTITUTION TOGETHER.

WE ARE AT OUR BEST WHEN WE WANT TO COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER.

WHEN WE WANT TO COMMUNICATE WITH PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE DIFFERENT THINGS.

AND PART OF THAT COMMUNICATION NOT ONLY EXPLAINING HOW I FEEL, BUT ASKING QUESTIONS AND LISTENING TO HOW YOU FEEL.

AND AS LONG AS WE REMEMBER THAT, AS A NATION AND AS A WORLD, WE WILL BE OKAY.

>> FACEBOOK AND OTHER SOCIAL MEDIA WERE INVENTED THEY SAID TO CONNECT US, TO BRING US CONNECTIONS.

AND YET I NOW FEEL THAT MAYBE THE PROBLEMS WE'RE HAVING IS THAT SOCIAL MEDIA ISN'T GREAT AT THIS NOTION OF CONNECTION.

HOW DO YOU THINK IT'S AFFECTED WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT?

>> IT'S INTERESTING.

THAT EXPERIMENT I MENTIONED WITH THE GUN CONTROL AND GUN RIGHTS FOLKS, THEY HAD A GREAT CONVERSATION FACE-TO-FACE, AND THEN THEY WENT BACK AND CONTINUED THE CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK.

AND WITHIN 45 MINUTES, PEOPLE WERE CALLING PEOPLE JACK-BOOTED NAZIS.

IT ALL FELL APART ONCE THEY WENT ONLINE.

THE REASON WHY IS OFTENTIMES WE FORGET THAT DIFFERENT FORMS OF COMMUNICATION HAVE DIFFERENT READOUTS.

INFORM, WHEN TELEPHONES FIRST BECAME POPULAR ABOUT 100 YEARS AGO, THERE WERE ALL THESE STUDIES THAT SAID OH, PEOPLE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO HAVE REAL CONVERSATIONS ON THE PHONE BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SEE EACH OTHER.

AND WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT AT THE TIME, THEY WERE RIGHT.

IF YOU LOOK AT EARLY TRANSCRIPTS OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATIONS, PEOPLE USED THEM LIKE TELEGRAMS.

THEY WOULD SEND PEOPLE OTHER SHOPPING LISTS AND STOCK ORDERS.

BUT OF COURSE NOWADAYS WE CAN HAVE SOME OF OUR MOST MEANINGFUL CONVERSATIONS VIA THE TELEPHONE.

AND IT'S BECAUSE WE'VE LEARNED THE RULES OF TELEPHONES.

WITHOUT BEING AWARE OF IT, WHEN WE TALK ON THE PHONE, WE OVER ENUNCIATE OUR WORDS A LITTLE BIT.

WE PUT MORE EMOTION INTO OUR VOICE, BECAUSE WE KNOW THE OTHER PERSON CAN'T SEE US.

THESE ARE INSTINCTS WE'VE LEARNED IN USING THE TECHNOLOGY.

AND DIGITAL CONVERSATIONS ARE SIMILAR.

WHEN I LOOK AT MY TEENAGED KIDS, THEY HAVE NO PROBLEM COMMUNICATING ONLINE.

IN FACT, THEY HAVE SOME OF THEIR MOST MEANINGFUL CONVERSATIONS VIA TEXT AND EMOJIS.

BUT FOR THOSE OF US THAT GREW UP IN A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WORLD, THE KEY IS TO REMIND OURSELVES THAT DIFFERENT FORMS OF COMMUNICATION HAVE DIFFERENT RULES.

IF I'M TALKING TO YOU ON FACEBOOK, I CAN'T ASSUME IT'S THE SAME AS IF WE'RE TALKING FACE-TO-FACE.

IF I'M SENDING YOU A TEXT, THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM SENDING YOU AN EMAIL.

THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM GIVING YOU A CALL.

AND WHEN WE REMIND OURSELVES DIFFERENT COMMUNICATION HAS DIFFERENT RULES, IT BECOMES REALLY OBVIOUS WHAT WE OUGHT TO DO IN EACH FORM OF COMMUNICATION.

WE SHOULD BE MORE POLITE IN EMAILS.

WE SHOULD BE LESS SARCASTIC.

WE ARE GOING MAKE IT THROUGH THIS PERIOD.

DIGITAL COMMUNICATION IS WITH US TO STAY.

AND IT'S GO GOING TO GET HEALTHIER AND HEALTHIER AND HEALTHIER THE MORE THAT WE THINK AND REMIND OURSELVES THAT DIFFERENT FORMS OF COMMUNICATION REQUIRE DIFFERENT SKILLS AND DIFFERENT RULES, AND THE MORE WE OBSERVE AND RESPECT THOSE.

>> CHARLIES DUHIGG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A LANDMARK MORE THAN 140 YEARS IN THE MAKING.

BARCELONA'S LA SAGRADA FAMILIA, OR HOLY FAMILY IS ONE OF THE WORLD'S GREAT WONDERS, DESPITE THE SPITE NEVER BEING FINISHED.

A CONSTANT WORK IN PROGRESS, IT WAS DESIGNED BY THE LEGENDARY CATALAN ARCHITECT GOWDY.

BUT BY THE TIME OF HIS DEATH, ONLY A QUARTER HAD BEEN COMPLETED, SLOWED DOWN BY CIVIL WAR AND ALL SORTS OF HISTORIC BUREAUCRATIC BUILDING CODES.

NOW OFFICIALS ARE SAYING THAT IN 2026, 144 YEARS SINCE CONSTRUCTION BEGAN IN 1882, THE COMPLETED.

I GUESS GREAT THINGS DO COME TO THOSE WHO WAIT.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE