>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AMERICAN JOURNALIST EVAN GERSHKOVICH STILL BEHIND BARS IN RUSSIA ONE YEAR LATER, AND I SPEAK TO THE SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY FOR HOSTAGE AFFAIRS, ROGER CARSTENS ABOUT U.S. EFFORTS TO FREE HIM.

AND WE DISCUSS THE ONGOING ISRAELI HOSTAGE CRISIS.

>>> THEN WE BRING YOU A REPORT ON THE LATEST FROM GAZA AS ANOTHER STATE DEPARTMENT STAFFER RESIGNS OVER U.S. POLICY THERE.

ANNELLE SHELINE JOINS ME FOR HER FIRST TELEVISION INTERVIEW.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> TWO OF THE BIGGEST PRISONS IN HAITI HAVE THOUSANDS OF INMATES, SOME OF THEM CRIMINALS IN THE COUNTRY RELEASED IN THE STREETS.

>> AS HAITI EXTENDS ITS STATE OF EMERGENCY, "WASHINGTON POST" REPORTER WIDLORE MERANCOURT GIVES HARI SREENIVASAN AN UPDATE ON THE VIOLENT GANG WARS.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ABROAD, ALONE, AND LOCKED AWAY ON TRUMPED UP CHARGES, IT IS THE STUFF OF NIGHTMARES.

AND YET FOR ONE YEAR, THAT'S BEEN REALITY FOR "WALL STREET JOURNAL" REPORTER EVAN GERSHKOVICH.

HE'S BEING HELD IN A RUSSIAN PRISON ON THE CHARGES OF ESPIONAGE, SOMETHING HE AND EVERYONE WHO KNOWS HIM DENIES.

AND NOW A MOSCOW COURT HAS EXTENDED HIS DETENTION BY THREE MORE MONTHS.

AT THE SAME TIME IN GAZA, MORE THAN 100 HOSTAGES ARE STILL BEING HELD CAPTIVE, TAKEN DURING THE BRUTAL OCTOBER 7th ATTACK ON ISRAEL.

NEGOTIATIONS TO FREE THEM AND BUILD A CEASEFIRE HAVE DRAGGED ON IN QATAR FOR MONTHS.

MY FIRST GUEST FINDS HIMSELF AT THE CENTER OF BOTH THESE CRISES, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY FOR HOSTAGE AFFAIRS, ROGER CARSTENS.

MR. CARSTENS, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM FROM WASHINGTON.

CAN I JUST START BY ASKING YOU, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND, FOR WHAT POSSIBLE REASON COULD MOSCOW EXTEND EVAN'S DETENTION FOR ANOTHER THREE MONTHS, RIGHT AT THE TIME OF THIS, YOU KNOW, ANNIVERSARY, IF YOU WANT TO PUT IT THAT WAY?

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON TODAY TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

I'M GRATEFUL FOR THE LIGHT YOU'RE SHINING ON THIS TOPIC.

THE REASON FOR THE EXTENSION I WILL NEVER REALLY KNOW.

IF YOU WERE TO ASK WHAT I HOPE, I WOULD HOPE THAT THEY'RE EXTENDING IT SO WE HAVE ANOTHER 90-DAY PERIOD IN WHICH TO SEEK WAYS TO COME UP WITH A DEAL THAT WILL BRING BOTH EVAN AND PAUL WHELAN HOME.

I CAN SAY THAT WE HAD SEEN IN THE PAST THAT ONCE A TRIAL STARTS IN RUSSIA, THE RUSSIANS WILL USUALLY FOLLOW THROUGH.

SO IF THE TRIAL PROCESS STARTS WITH EVAN, THAT MIGHT TAKE US INTO ABOUT A SEVEN, EIGHT, NINE, TEN-MONTH PERIOD WHERE WE MIGHT HAVE A HARDER TIME TO COME UP WITH A DEAL AND MAKE A DEAL TO BRING HIM HOME.

TO MY MIND, I'M HOPEFUL THINKING THE RUSSIANS CAN WORK WITH US TO COME UP WITH A DEAL TO BRING HIM HOME BEFORE THE TRIAL ACTUALLY STARTS.

BUT IT'S HARD TO GET INTO THEIR HEADS ON.

THIS.

>> WHEN YOU SAY HOPHOPEFUL, ARE THERE ANY CONCRETE DISCUSSIONS ON WHAT MIGHT UNLOCK THIS CRISIS?

I MEAN, FOR INSTANCE, CLEARLY, I ASSUME GIVEN WHAT WE SAW WITH BRITTNEY GRINER, WHAT WE'VE SEEN WITH THE CASE OF THE IRANIAN AMERICANS, THERE IS ALWAYS SOME KIND OF A SWAP.

WHO ARE THEY SAYING THEY WANT IN RETURN FOR EVAN?

>> WELL, TO GET TO THE FIRST PART OF YOUR QUESTION, WE DO HAVE AN OPEN LINE, OR OPEN CHANNEL WITH THE RUSSIANS THAT WE'VE BEEN USING TO DISCUSS THESE CASES.

IT'S THE SAME CHANNEL THAT BROUGHT HOME TREVOR REID AND BRITTNEY GRINER.

WE'VE BEEN USING TO DISCUSS THE RETURN OF PAUL WELL LISTEN AND EVAN GERSHKOVICH.

SO THERE IS AN OPEN COMMUNICATION THAT TAKES PLACE BETWEEN US.

AS YOU'VE PROBABLY HEARD BEFORE, WE MADE WHAT WE THOUGHT WAS STRONG OFFER LAST NOVEMBER TO THE RUSSIANS.

THE RUSSIANS REJECTED IT.

AND IN THAT TIME SINCE THEN, WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING ELSE THAT THE UNITED STATES CAN PULL TOGETHER AND DELIVER THAT THE RUSSIANS WILL ACCEPT.

>> WHAT WAS YOUR STRONG POSITION THEN?

WHO ARE YOU OFFERING?

WHAT ARE YOU OFFERING TO THE RUSSIANS?

>> YEAH, IT'S ONE OF THOSE QUESTIONS THAT IF I WERE IN YOUR CHAIR, I'D BE ASKING THE SAME THING, BUT FROM MY SIDE OF THE HOUSE, IF WE GET INTO THE DETAILS, IT MIGHT ACTUALLY TAKE ME FURTHER AWAY FROM GETTING PAUL AND EVAN HOME.

I WOULD SAY I WAS ASKED THE SAME QUESTIONS BEFORE WE BROUGHT BRITTANY AND TREVOR REED HOME.

USUALLY THERE IS A BACK AND FORTH THAT'S VERY POSITIVE WITH MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA OR MEMBERS OF CAPITOL HILL.

AND THE DETAILS ARE USUALLY WHAT'S THE FOREFRONT OF EVERYONE'S MINDS.

BUT IF YOU START TALKING THE DETAILS AND NEGOTIATING IN PUBLIC TO AT LEAST MY BELIEF, YOU TAKE YOURSELF FURTHER AWAY OF ACHIEVING YOUR OBJECTIVE, WHICH IS ACTUALLY GETTING THEM HOME.

SO WE DON'T REALLY NEGOTIATE IN PUBLIC.

SO IF I MAY, I'D LIKE TO KEEP SOME OF THE DETAILS CLOSE TO MY CHEST HERE.

BUT I CAN TELL YOU WHAT WE'RE DOING SEEMS TO BE WORKING.

AND IF WE JUST NEED TO REALLY FIND THAT ONE WAY OR THAT ONE OFFER THAT IS GOING TO WORK ON THE RUSSIANS THAT'S GOING BRING EVAN AND PAUL HOME.

>> SO THERE IS EVAN.

YOU MENTIONED PAUL WHELAN, WHO WAS A MARINE VET.

HE HAS BEEN JAILED FOR FIVE YEARS.

AND NOW THE LATEST RUSSIAN KARELINA.

SHE WAS ARRESTED IN JANUARY.

SHE WAS ACCUSED OF TREASON FOR HELPING UKRAINE.

SO ARE ALL THESE -- WHEN YOU DEAL WITH THIS, DO YOU DEAL WITH THEM ALL TOGETHER, OR ARE THEY ALL SEPARATE?

THEY'RE ALL BEING HELD BY RUSSIA.

ARE THEY -- DO YOU PUT ALL THEIR FATES ON THE TABLE, OR SIMPLY?

>> WELL, MY OFFICE IS CHARGED WITH COMING UP WITH THE NEGOTIATING STRATEGY TO BRING HOME AMERICANS THAT HAVE BEEN DETERMINED TO BE WRONGFULLY DETAINED BY THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE.

AND RIGHT NOW TWO AMERICANS, PAUL WHELAN AND EVAN GERSHKOVICH.

THE OTHER TWO AMERICANS THAT MIGHT BE ON YOUR RADAR SCREEN, KSENIA, THE BALLERINA AND THE RFE JOURNALIST, THEY HAVE NOT YET BEEN DETERMINED TO BE WRONGFUL.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS WE'RE LOOKING VERY CLOSELY AT THOSE CASES.

WE'RE TRYING TO FIND OUT MORE INFORMATION.

BUT IT SOMETIMES TAKES A LONG TIME.

I HAVE TO SAY WITH EVAN, IT WAS JUST SO RIGHT IN YOUR FACE, YOU KNOW.

HE WAS JUST RECENTLY ACCREDITED AGAIN BY THE RUSSIANS.

HIS VISA WAS APPROVED.

HE WAS ARRESTED, AND THE NEXT DAY THE FSB PUT OUT A PRESS RELEASE.

IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR IMMEDIATELY THAT EVAN WAS BEING TAKEN AND USED AS A BARGAINING CHIP AGAINST THE UNITED STATES.

WITH THE OTHER TWO CASES THAT HAVE RECENTLY POPPED IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS, WE'RE STILL GOING THROUGH THE DETERMINATION PROCESS, GATHERING INFORMATION THAT WE CAN PRESENT TO THE SECRETARY FOR HIM TO EVENTUALLY MAKE A DECISION.

>> SO HE WORKS AS WE ALL KNOW FOR "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL."

THEY'VE PUT OUT AN EDITORIAL CLAIMING THAT GERSHKOVICH ARREST WAS, QUOTE, BECAUSE AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS DON'T FEAR THE U.S.

RESPONSE.

THEY SUGGEST THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ARRESTS JOURNALISTS IN AMERICA.

HERE'S WHAT THEY SAID IN THAT REGARD.

ONE RESPONSE THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HASN'T ATTEMPTED IS ARRESTING OR EXPELLING RUSSIAN JOURNALISTS OPERATING IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

AND I THINK THERE IS PRECEDENT.

I DO BELIEVE THE UNITED STATES ARRESTED IRANIANS WHO WERE JOURNALISTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, IN A WAY, I HAD THE PLEASURE OF BEING MUCH MORE FOCUSED THAN THAT, TO THE POINT THAT MY JOB IS TO FIND THAT WAY THAT'S GOING TO WIN IN THE NEGOTIATION TO BRING PEOPLE HOME.

QUESTIONS ON WHAT WE MIGHT DO WITH THEIR JOURNALISTS, I WOULD LEAVE THAT TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND OTHERS.

MAYBE MY THOUGHTS ARE, THOUGH, THAT WE OFTEN DON'T PLAY BY THE SAME RULES THAT OTHERS PLAY BY.

I THINK WE ACCEPT THE FACT THAT JOURNALISM IS A PART OF OUR LIFE.

WE EMBRACE IT.

IT'S REASONS WHY I LIKE TO COME ON SHOWS LIKE THIS AND FRANKLY BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE BY MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA.

IT'S A PART OF THE SYSTEM WE ALL EMBRACE.

SO THE THOUGHT OF EXPELLING JOURNALISTS, AGAIN, THAT'S GOING TO BE UP TO SOMEONE ELSE TO MAKE THAT DECISION, BUT I THINK TO MY MIND, WE ARE PROBABLY NOT GOING IN THE SAME DIRECTION THAT THE RUSSIANS ARE GOING IN TERMS OF CLAMPING DOWN ON MEDIA FREEDOM AND ARRESTING JOURNALISTS.

>> YOU JUST SAID EARLIER THAT YOU HAVE UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BROUGHT BACK 46 HOSTAGES.

SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE YOU?

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU WANT TO SAY THE EXACT NUMBER, BUT WHERE IS THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL?

WHEN YOU BRING THEM BACK, ARE MORE BEING TEXAN HOSTAGE?

WHAT IS THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF AMERICANS BEING CAPTURED IN THESE COUNTRIES?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

YOU WOULD THINK THAT COMMON SENSE WOULD TELL YOU THAT IF WE BARGAINED TO BRING BACK AMERICANS, THAT THE OTHER SIDES OUT THERE WOULD GO OUT THERE AND GRAB MORE AMERICANS.

BUT WHAT WE'RE FINDING IS THE STATISTICS, THE MATHEMATICS DON'T REALLY ADD UP IN THAT DIRECTION.

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN I HAD OVER 50 CASES NOT ALL THAT LONG AGO.

RIGHT NOW MY NUMBERS ARE HOVERING AND BOUNCING IN BETWEEN 20 AND 30.

SO OUR NUMBERS ARE ACTUALLY GOING DOWN.

AND WE'RE FINDING THAT A LOT OF THESE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE HAD A TENDENCY TO TAKE AMERICANS ARE NOT NECESSARILY GOING BACK OUT TO RESTOCK THE POND, AS WE SAY.

>> WELL, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO RESPOND, THEN, TO WHAT YOUR PREDECESSOR ROBERT O'BRIEN WHO WORKED IN A JOB SIMILAR TO YOURS, HE WAS YOUR PREDECESSOR UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

HE BASICALLY SAYS ON THE BIG CASES, I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION MAY HAVE UNINTENTIONALLY CREATED A MARKET FOR FUTURE HOSTAGE TAKING.

YOU SAVE A CURRENT HOSTAGE WITH A BIG MONETARY CONCESSION OR BY RELEASING AN ARMS MERCHANT, BUT YOU TRANSFER THE MISERY TO THE NEXT HOSTAGE THAT'S TAKEN.

WHY DO YOU THINK HE SAYS THAT?

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE, GIVEN WHAT YOU JUST TOLD ME ABOUT THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL, THEY'RE NOT, QUOTE, STOCKING UP AFTER YOU'VE HAD HOSTAGES BROUGHT BACK?

>> YOU KNOW, ROBERT IS A GOOD FRIEND, AND I STILL TALK TO HIM FREQUENTLY.

I SOMETIMES CALL HIM TO GET ADVICE OR GET HIS TAKE ON A CASE I MIGHT BE WORKING ON.

I FIND HIM TO BE A VERY SMART PERSON, VERY EXPERIENCED.

BUT REALLY, WHAT I CAN DO IS POINT THE NUMBERS.

WHAT WE'RE FINDING I GUESS MATHEMATICALLY IS WE HAD A LOT OF CASES.

WE WORKED THROUGH THEM.

THEY'RE GOING DOWN, AND WE'RE NOT FINDING PEOPLE, THE OTHER SIDE, WHETHER BIT THE RUSSIANS OR THE VENEZUELANS OR PICK YOUR COUNTRY, THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY GOING OUT AND GRABBING MORE PEOPLE.

SO ROBERT'S SNAPSHOT MIGHT BE A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN MINE.

I'M SIMPLY LOOKING AT THE SPREADSHEET EVERY DAY THAT COMES BACK TO MY DESK.

AND OVER TIME, THOSE NUMBERS HAVE ACTUALLY GONE DOWN.

>> SO WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THINGS HAVE ACTUALLY CHANGED?

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE UNITED STATES JUST POINT-BLANK DIDN'T DO ANY TRADES FOR HOSTAGES.

THEY THOUGHT THAT IT WAS REWARDING TERRORISM.

OBVIOUSLY, AFTER JAMES FOLEY WAS KILLED SO BRUTALLY BY ISIS, DIANE FOLEY REALLY, REALLY WENT ON THE OFFENSIVE SO TO SPEAK TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO WHAT OTHER COUNTRIES DO.

AND IT APPEARS THAT THE UNITED STATES IS DOING MORE OF THAT.

WHAT ARE YOU -- YOU'RE DOING THAT.

YOU'RE GETTING MORE PEOPLE BACK.

BUT IS THERE A DETERRENCE THAT YOU CAN BE CONFIDENT IN?

I WILL TELL YOU WHY.

BECAUSE I SPOKE TO EVGENIA, HER HUSBAND VLADIMIR, THE RUSSIAN BRITISH CITIZEN, LIKE A ALEXEI NAVALNY, A POLITICAL OPPONENT OF PUTIN'S AND HAS BEEN JAILED FOR HIS STANCE ON THE UKRAINE WAR.

THIS IS WHAT SHE TOLD ME JUST THIS WEEK, EVGENIA, ABOUT DETERRENTS.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> I BELIEVE THAT IF DICTATORS WORK TOGETHER ADOPTLING EACH OTHER'S PRACTICES AND PROPPING EACH OTHER, DEMOCRACIES SHOULD ALSO BRING -- JOIN THEIR EFFORTS TO TRY AND CURB THE RISE OF THE NUMBER OF POLITICAL PRISONERS AND HOSTAGES AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THIS COOPERATION COULD BE ACHIEVED THROUGH THE WORK OF THOSE HOSTAGE AFFAIRS OFFICES WORKING IN COOPERATION, WORKING TOGETHER IN DIFFERENT DEMOCRACIES TO ESTABLISH A SET OF INSTRUMENTS THAT WOULD PREVENT DICTATORS FROM TAKING HOSTAGES IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> I MEAN, SHE PRAISED YOUR WORK, AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH THAT.

HOW DO YOU CONVINCE THEM, AND WHAT KIND OF A COALITION?

WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE?

>> SO EVGENIA IS 100% RIGHT.

I FULLY AGREE WITH THE WORDS THAT SHE'S JUST OFFERED.

SECRETARY BLINKEN, OVER TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO CHARGED ME WITH TRYING TO WORK ON A DETERRENCE EFFORT THAT WILL IN ONE DAY PUT THIS HORRIFIC PRACTICE ON THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY.

AND WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITH LIKE-MINDED PARTNERS, PARTNERS AND ALLIES EVER SINCE.

THERE IS A GREAT EFFORT BEING LED BY THE CANADIANS WHO PUT OUT THE DECLARATION AGAINST ARBITRARY DETENTION IN STATE TO STATE RELATIONS A LITTLE OVER TWO YEARS AGO.

AND RIGHT NOW WE HAVE 75 SIGNATORIES WHO SIGNED UP TO SUPPORT THIS EFFORT.

AND WE'RE TRYING TO WORK WITH THESE LIKE-MINDED COUNTRY TO FIND TOOLS THAT COULD BE USED TO LEVEE AGAINST COUNTRIES TO USE PEOPLE AS POLITICAL MARKETING CHIPS.

IF YOU CAN BUILD A COALITION OF LIKE-MINDED COUNTRIES, MAYBE 10, 20, 30, 40 COUNTRIES WHO ARE WILLING TO TAKE ACTION WHEN A COUNTRY TAKES A CITIZEN OF ONE OF THEM AS A HOSTAGE, THEN WE MIGHT FIND A WAY TO RAISE THE PRICE OF OTHER COUNTRIES TAKING OUR CITIZENS AND HAVE THIS PROBLEM GO AWAY.

I WOULD BE THRILLED IF IN 10 TO 15 YEARS, I GET TO DISMANTLE MY OFFICE BECAUSE WE FOUND A WAY TO ACTUALLY DETER THIS PRACTICE.

>> AND NOW ON A GIGANTIC SCALE IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR, YOU'VE GOT ALL THESE MORE THAN 100 HOSTAGES BEING HELD BY HAMAS IN GAZA.

ABOUT 130 ARE LEFT FROM THE ORIGINAL 240.

ISRAEL BELIEVES A NUMBER OF THAT 130 MAY AND ARE DEAD, INCLUDING AN AMERICAN ISRAELI.

YOU HAD FIVE U.S. DUAL NATIONAL CITIZENS BEING HELD.

ONE OF THEM WAS CONFIRMED KILLED THIS WEEK.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING, YOU KNOW, TO TRY TO GET THEM BACK.

ARE YOU WORKING ON THE BIGGER PICTURE TO GET THEM ALL BACK?

OR ARE YOU TRYING TO FOCUS WITH THE HAMAS PEOPLE IN QATAR ON GETTING YOURS BACK?

>> SO CHRISTIANE, I'LL ANSWER THE FIRST PART OF YOUR QUESTION FIRST.

THAT IS THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM OBVIOUSLY, IN THE GEOPOLITICAL SPACE.

BUT I SEE IT AS ALSO A HORRIFIC EVENT HAPPENING IN THE LIVES OF SO MANY DIFFERENT FAMILY MEMBERS.

I'VE HAD A CHANCE TO TALK TO EVERY SINGLE FAMILY OF AMERICAN CITIZENS THAT ARE BEING HELD IN GAZA.

AND FRANKLY, I PROBABLY TALKED TO ABOUT 40 ISRAELI FAMILIES.

I'VE PROBABLY TALKED TO ROUGHLY 50 FAMILIES WHOSE LOVED ONES ARE BEING HELD THERE.

AND IT'S VERY HARD TO LISTEN TO THEIR STORIES AND LISTEN TO THE PAIN THAT THEY'RE IN, AND THEY'RE ALL WAITING FOR SOME SORT OF SOLUTION, WHICH OF COURSE WE AND THE GOVERNMENT ARE TRYING TO WORK WITH OUR PARTNERS AND ALLIES TO BRING ABOUT.

BUT THERE IS A REAL HUMAN COST HERE.

I KNOW YOU KNOW THAT FROM THE TIME YOU SPENT TALKING TO PEOPLE THAT HAVE GONE THROUGH THESE HORRIFIC EVENTS.

BUT THIS TERMS OF THE BROADER SCALE, I CAN'T GET INTO DETAILS.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS I THINK WE'VE COME UP WITH WHAT WE SEEM TO BELIEVE IS A BROAD CONTOUR TO A PLAN THAT WE BELIEVE COULD WORK, BUT WE HAVE TO KEEP GOING AFTER IT.

I WOULD SAY IF YOU FOCUS ON THE DAY TO DAY AND THE DETAILS THAT KEEP COMING OUT DAILY, IN A WAY, IT KIND OF DETRACTS FROM THE OVERARCHING OBJECTIVE WHICH IS TO KEEP PUSHING, TRY TO GET TOWARDS THAT BROADER CONTOUR OF A PLAN THAT CAN EVENTUALLY BRING EVERYONE HOME.

SO WHAT ARE WE DOING?

WE'RE WORKING HARD.

AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, SECRETARY BLINKEN AND DIRECTOR BURNS ARE PERSONALLY CEASED WITH.

THIS THEY'VE BEEN PUTTING THIS FRONT AND CENTER INTO EVERYTHING THEY'RE DOING TO TRY TO RESOLVE THIS CRISIS.

>> AS YOU KNOW, MANY ISRAELI PEOPLE, THE FAMILIES OF THOSE WHO ARE HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA ARE VERY ANGRY WITH THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT.

THEY DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS PUTTING -- MANY OF THEM DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS PUTTING IT FRONT AND CENTER.

AND INDEED, THE GOVERNMENT ALSO BLAMED THE UNITED STATES THIS WEEK FOR THE ABSTENTION IN THAT CEASEFIRE VOTE IN THE SECURITY COUNCIL FOR IMBOLDENING HAMAS, FOR MAKING HAMAS BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN STILL HOLD THE HOSTAGES WITH NO CONSEQUENCES.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, TRY TO STAY OUT OF THE POLITICS OF IT.

OBVIOUSLY THE POLITICS BLEED OVER INTO WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IN TERMS OF BRINGING PEOPLE HOME.

I THINK IN TERMS OF THE FAMILY MEMBERS, AGAIN, I'VE TALKED TO SO MANY OF THEM.

AND I HAVE HEARD THEIR STORIES.

I'VE HEARD THEIR FRUSTRATIONS.

AND I JUST CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE BEING IN THEIR SHOES.

I'VE BEEN DOING THIS JOB FOR FOUR YEARS.

I'VE PROBABLY TALKED TO WELL OVER 100 FAMILIES GOING THROUGH THIS, YET I'VE NEVER BEEN THROUGH IT MYSELF.

I UNDERSTAND THEIR FRUSTRATIONS.

I THINK IF I WERE IN THEIR SHOES, I WOULD PROBABLY FEEL THE SAME WAY.

WHAT I WILL ASSURE THEM, THIS HAS THE FOCUS AND ATTENTION OF THE PRESIDENT, THE SECRETARY OF STATE, THE DIRECTOR OF THE CIA.

I WOULD SAY PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE U.S. GOVERNMENT, AND CERTAINLY IN MY OFFICE, WHERE WE GO TO BED EVERY NIGHT FEELING LIKE, YOU KNOW, WHAT ELSE COULD WE HAVE DONE TO TRY TO FORWARD THIS PROCESS?

WHAT ELSE COULD WE DO TOMORROW TO TRY TO BRING THIS TO SOME SORT OF RESOLUTION OR CLOSURE.

SO YOU'RE GOING TO GET 100% OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IN OUR EFFORTS TO TRY TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM, AND THAT'S ALL WE CAN DO IS JUST KEEP PUSHING FORWARD AND TAKING ONE STEP FORWARD AT A TIME.

>> ROBERT CARSTENS, THANK YOU SO MUCH, ROGER.

>>> UP NEXT, AS INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE BUILDS OVER EFFORTS TO FREE HOSTAGES, SO TOO DOES CONDEMNATION OF ISRAELI POLICY AS THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION DETERIORATES.

TODAY THE 24th PALESTINIAN CHILD, 30th PERSON OVERALL HAS DIED FROM HUNGER IN GAZA, ACCORDING TO MEDICAL SOURCES.

MELISSA BELL JOINS ME FROM JERUSALEM WITH THE LATEST.

MELISSA, THIS IS AN ONGOING CRISIS OF NOT ENOUGH AID DISTRIBUTED INSIDE GAZA.

WHAT IS THE LATEST YOU'RE HEARING NOW FROM THERE?

>> IT IS, OF COURSE, CHRISTIANE, AS EVER, SO DIFFICULT FOR US TO GET INFORMATION FROM INSIDE.

WE RELY ON A SMALL ARMY OF PALESTINIAN PRODUCERS BOTH INSIDE AND OUTSIDE THE GAZA STRIP TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE, TO SPEAK TO MEDICAL SOURCES, TO FIND OUT WHAT'S GOING ON.

AND THEN OF COURSE THERE ARE THE FIGURES THAT IT IS VERY EASY TO GET LOST IN DAY AFTER DAY, THE HORRENDOUS FIGURES, MORE THAN 32,500 PALESTINIANS THAT HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES.

ON THAT POINT, I'D LIKE TO BRING TO YOUR ATTENTION ONE VIDEO THAT WAS SHOT BY ONE FREELANCE CAMERAMAN WE EMPLOYED A WEEK AND A HALF AGO.

THIS IS MOHAMMED AL NAZAR.

HE WAS 6 YEARS OLD IN THIS VIDEO, BEING TREATED FOR SEVERE MALNUTRITION IN NORTHERN GAZA, AND IT IS HE WHO DIED TODAY, BRINGING THAT TERRIBLE TOLL WHICH IS LIKELY TO BE THE BEGINNING OF A FAMINE TO 30.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO PUT A FACE ON THE BEGINNING OF THAT FAMINE.

WE'VE BEEN HEARING TODAY FROM THE UNITED NATIONS OF THEIR FEARS THAT THIS COULD WORSEN.

PUBLISHING A MAP SHOWING HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO GET AID INSIDE, AND CALLING AGAIN FOR MORE TO BE DONE TO GET THAT DESPERATELY NEEDED HELP IN TO GAZA.

THERE ARE STILL, SAYS THE UNITED NATIONS, GREAT IMPEDIMENTS AND TIME IS RUNNING OUT.

MORE BROADLY, OF COURSE, THERE CONTINUES TO BE THROUGHOUT THE GAZA STRIP, CHRISTIANE, THE BOMBINGS, THE VIOLENCE, THE MILITARY CAMPAIGN ITSELF, NOT LEAST AROUND AL SHIFA AND AMAL HOSPITAL COMPLEXES.

THAT CONTINUED TODAY.

WE'VE BEEN HEARING BOTH FROM THE IDF AND LOCAL SOURCES THAT THERE WAS INTENSE COMBAT, CLOSE QUARTER COMBAT, AS WELL AS INTENSE AIRSTRIKES.

AND THERE IS THE CIVILIAN TOLL TO THAT.

WE'VE BEEN SPEAKING TO ONE FAMILY NEAR AL SHIFA, WHO SPOKE TODAY, CHRISTIANE, OF AN AIR STRIKE THAT FOLLOWED AN ARTILLERY HIT THAT THEY SUSPECTED WAS A WARNING TO THEM, UNABLE TO GET OUT.

THE STRIKE THEN HIT THE FAMILY.

SIX CHILDREN THEY SAY WERE BURIED UNDER RUBBLE WITH SOME OF THEM THEY SAY STILL ALIVE, THAT THEY SIMPLY CAN'T REACH TO.

THREATEN IS OF COURSE WHAT WE FEAR MIGHT HAPPEN NEXT IN RAFAH.

MORE THAN A MILLION PEOPLE LIVING IN DIRE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND VERY LITTLE TO SUGGEST THAT ISRAEL HAS ANY INTENTION OTHER THAN TO GO AHEAD WITH THE GROUND CAMPAIGN THAT THE UNITED STATES IS TRYING TO CONVINCE IT TO AVOID.

CHRISTIANE?

>> AND MELISSA, WE'VE OBVIOUSLY HEARD FROM AND WE'VE SEEN THE PICTURES OF THE PROTESTS.

WE'VE TALKED TO CERTAIN ISRAELIS WHO HAVE BEEN PROTESTING THIS WEEK BECAUSE THEY WANT THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS BACK, WHO ARE BEING HELD IN GAZA.

WHAT ARE YOU PICKING UP?

WHAT IS THE MOOD AMONGST ISRAELIS RIGHT NOW?

>> THERE IS OF COURSE SO MUCH FOCUS ON THE HOSTAGES, CHRISTIANE.

WE SAW THIS WEEK THE ARREST OF TWO HOSTAGE FAMILY MEMBERS QUICKLY RELEASED.

BUT NONETHELESS, PART OF THOSE DAILY PROTESTS OUTSIDE THE DEFENSE MINISTRY IN TEL AVIV BECAUSE THEY SO PHYSICAL WANT THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS OUT.

TO ADD TO THAT YOU HAVE THE TESTIMONY A CUP OF DAYS OF AMIT SUSANA, ONE OF THE HOSTAGES WHO WAS RELEASED IN NOVEMBER WHO SPOKE TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ABOUT HER 55 DAYS OF CAPTIVITY, THE FEAR, THE SHACKLED ANKLE, SLOWLY GOING THROUGH EVERY STEP OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO HER, INCLUDING FOR THE FIRST TIME A SEXUAL ASSAULT.

THIS WEIGHS HEAVILY ON ISRAEL'S COLLECTIVE CONSCIENCE.

AND OF COURSE THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF FOCUS ON THAT.

THERE IS VERY LITTLE, HOWEVER, CHRISTIANE, IN THE ISRAELI PRESS ABOUT THE SUFFERING OF THE CIVILIANS INSIDE GAZA.

THE DRUMS OF WAR BEAT LOUDLY HERE, AS YOU EXPECT.

PERHAPS THAT IS MADE MORE EVEN STRONGER BY THE GOVERNMENT'S MESSAGE, THAT IT IS PLOWING AHEAD WITH THIS OFFENSIVE AS RELENTLESS AS IT IS, WITH ITS SIGHTS NOW ON RAFAH.

THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO FORCE TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

WHEN THERE WAS A LULL A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO IN THE HOSTAGE TALKS, ISRAELI OFFICIALS WERE SAYING LOOK, THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO PUT PRESSURE ON HAMAS TO COME TO THE TABLE, OR WE WILL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO HEAD INTO RAFAH.

AND WHAT THEY SAY IS THAT THEY BELIEVE THIS IS THE ONLY WAY OF GETSING YAHYA SINWAR, THE HEAD OF HAMAS, TO CHANGE WHAT THEY DESCRIBE AS HIS CALCULUS, CHRISTIANE.

>> MELISSA BELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

NOW THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

IS BECOMING MORE OUTSPOKEN ABOUT THE CRISIS IN GAZA.

JUST THIS WEEK ALLOWING THAT CEASEFIRE RESOLUTION THAT I TALKED TO ABOUT TO PASS AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL.

BUT FOR SOME, THAT WAS TOO LITTLE TOO LATE.

STATE DEPARTMENT STAFFER ANNELLE SHELINE HAS RESIGNED IN PROTEST, DECIDING TO DO IT PUBLICLY AFTER COLLEAGUES CONVINCED HER TO SPEAK OUT ON THEIR BEHALF.

IN AN OP-ED FOR CNN, SHE SAID HER JOB TO ADVOCATE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS WAS IMPOSSIBLE, SAYING, QUOTE, WHATEVER CREDIBILITY THE UNITED STATES HAD AS AN ADVOCATE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS HAS ALMOST ENTIRELY VANISHED SINCE THE WAR BEGAN.

ANNELLE SHELINE IS JOINING ME NOW.

IT IS HER FIRST TELEVISION INTERVIEW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME JUST HEAR IT IN YOUR WORDS.

IT'S A PRETTY BIG STEP TO TAKE, ESPECIALLY AS A YOUNG STATE DEPARTMENT STAFFER, JUST IN YOUR FIRST YEAR TO DO THIS, AND TO DO IT PUBLICLY.

WHAT WAS THE -- IF THERE WAS THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK?

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME AND FOR DRAWING ATTENTION TO THIS ISSUE.

I THINK AS IT BECAME CLEAR WHAT U.S. POLICY WAS GOING TO BE AS FAR AS ENABLING THE ONGOING MILITARY OPERATIONS IN GAZA, AS WELL AS THE INTENTIONAL USE OF STARVATION AS A WEAPON, I INITIALLY HOPED TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE INSIDE THE STATE DEPARTMENT THROUGH THE DISSENT CABLES, THROUGH INTERNAL FORUMS, SPEAKING WITH SUPERVISORS.

AND THEN EVENTUALLY IT BECAME CLEAR THAT FROM MY POSITION INSIDE STATE, THERE WAS REALLY VERY LITTLE THAT I COULD DO.

SO AS YOU MENTIONED, I WAS INITIALLY GOING TO RESIGN QUIETLY.

I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BE PART OF THIS GOVERNMENT ANYMORE.

BUT AS I STARTED TO LET COLLEAGUES KNOW OF MY INTENTION, THEY SAID PLEASE SPEAK FOR US.

PLEASE USE YOUR VOICE.

MANY OF THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO FEEL THEY CANNOT RESIGN OR WHO ARE STILL DOING VERY IMPORTANT WORK INSIDE THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

AND SO I DECIDED THAT I WOULD GO AHEAD AND GO PUBLIC.

>> WAS IT PAINFUL?

DID YOU -- WHAT RISKS DID YOU FEEL YOU WERE TAKING?

WHAT CONSEQUENCES FOR YOUR LIFE.

YOU HAVE A 1-YEAR-OLD CHILD, I BELIEVE, A MORTGAGE.

>> YES.

THOSE ARE ALL CONCERNS.

I DO THINK I'M -- I'M PRIVILEGED.

I HAD ONLY BEEN AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT FOR A YEAR.

I HAVE AN ACADEMIC BACKGROUND.

I HAVE A Ph.D IN POLITICAL SCIENCE.

I HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN IN THE THINK TANK SECTOR, WHERE AS I THINK FOR A LOT OF MY COLLEAGUES WHO SPENT THEIR WHOLE CAREERS INSIDE THE STATE DEPARTMENT, IT IS MUCH MORE CHALLENGING TO THINK ABOUT TRYING TO LEAVE.

ALTHOUGH PLENTY OF COLLEAGUES SAID IT IS SOMETHING THEY ARE CONSIDERING.

THEY SEE WHAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IS DOING IN DIRECT CONTRAVENTION TO THE MISSION THEY BELIEVE THEY'RE TRYING TO UPHOLD BY WORKING FOR THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE.

AND IN CONTRAVENTION OF AMERICAN VALUES MORE BROADLY.

>> AGAIN, JUST TO SAY IT AGAIN, YOUR JOB WAS TO PROMOTE HUMAN RIGHTS IN NORTH AFRICA AND MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES.

AND YOU'VE DECIDED THAT YOU DON'T THINK UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT IS A TENABLE POSITION FOR YOU.

YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT USING STARVATION AS A WEAPON OF WAR.

YES, THE EU HAS SAID THAT.

YES, THE U.N., YES OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, BUT NOT THE UNITED STATES.

LET ME PLAY THIS FROM THE BRIEFING ON MONDAY BY THE STATE DEPARTMENT ABOUT WHETHER THE U.S.

BELIEVED THAT THE DEPARTMENT YOU JUST LEFT BELIEVES THAT THAT IS HAPPENING.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> WE HAVE NOT MADE AN ASSESSMENT OR DRAWN A CONCLUSION THAT THEY ARE IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW WHEN IT COMES TO THE PROVISION OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE INTO GAZA.

THAT SAID, WE DO BELIEVE THERE IS VERY MUCH MORE THAT THEY CAN DO TO LET HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE GO IN.

>> SO YOU CAN HEAR THE U.S. SAYING THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN NOW.

REALLY, FOR A LONG TIME.

SO THEY'RE TRYING TO THREAD A NEEDLE, AND THEY ARE DROPPING AID.

THEY ARE COMPLAINING AND DEMANDING THAT MORE AID GOES IN.

TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE NOTICING ABOUT MAYBE A SHIFT IN THE PUBLIC POSTURE OF THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> I THINK IT'S ENCOURAGING THAT WE HAVE STARTED TO SEE SOME DEGREE OF A SHIFT.

BUT AT PRESENT, IT HAS MADE ALMOST NO DIFFERENCE TO THE LIVES OF PEOPLE STARVING AND BEING BOMBED INSIDE GAZA.

I THINK TO THE EXTENT THAT EVEN THINGS LIKE THE U.S.

BEING WILLING TO ABSTAIN AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL IS SIGNIFICANT.

BUT THEN THE ADMINISTRATION CAME OUT AND IMMEDIATELY SAID THAT WAS NONBINDING.

SO IN GENERAL, I JUST FIND THAT THE WAY THE ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO DO THIS, I THINK THEY MADE A POLITICAL CALCULATION THAT THEY THOUGHT THAT IT MADE THE MOST SENSE POLITICALLY TO MAINTAIN THIS EXTREME SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL, REGARDLESS OF THE ILLEGAL BEHAVIORS THAT ISRAEL ENGAGES IN.

AND I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR THAT ISRAEL IS IN VIOLATION OF U.S. LAWS, WHETHER IT'S THE LEAHY LAWS OR SECTION 620-I OF THE FOREIGN ASSISTANCE ACT.

THE LAW IS VERY CLEAR HERE.

AND I WORRY VERY MUCH THAT NOT ONLY WHEN THE ADMINISTRATION FLOUTS THOSE LAWS, IT'S NOT ONLY HAVING A DEVASTATING EFFECT FOR THE PEOPLE OF GAZA, BUT FOR U.S.

MORAL STANDING ABROAD.

AND THIS ADMINISTRATION CAME IN PLEDGING TO REESTABLISH AMERICA'S MORAL LEADERSHIP, TO REENGAGE IN INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS.

THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES INSIDE STATE REALLY BELIEVED IN.

AND THIS IS PART OF WHY SO MANY PEOPLE ARE FEELING SO BETRAYED BY THE DECISIONS THIS ADMINISTRATION KEEPS MAKING.

>> WHEN YOU SAY VIOLATES U.S. LAWS, AND YOU MENTION THE LEAHY LAW, CAN YOU JUST LAY THAT OUT IN CASE FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW?

>> THE LEAHY LAWS REQUIRE THAT IF A FOREIGN -- IF UNITS OF A FOREIGN MILITARY -- IF IT HAS BEEN DETERMINED THAT THEY HAVE ENGAGED IN GROSS VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS, THAT THOSE UNITS ARE NO LONGER ELIGIBLE TO RECEIVE U.S. MILITARY ASSISTANCE.

IN ADDITION, THE OTHER LAW RELATED TO FOREIGN -- TO HUMANITARIAN AID IS THAT IF A FOREIGN COUNTRY IS BLOCKING AMERICAN HUMANITARIAN AID, THEY ALSO RENDER THEMSELVES INELIGIBLE TO RECEIVE U.S. MILITARY ASSISTANCE.

SO UNDER THESE LAWS, AS YOU MENTIONED, PLENTY OF OTHER INTERNATIONAL AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS AND OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE THOSE DESIGNATIONS, HAVE SAID THAT ISRAEL IS INDEED COMMITTING THESE ACTIONS.

AND YET THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IS NOT YET WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.

>> DO YOU THINK -- I MEAN, YOU'VE JUST LEFT.

SO YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY BEEN PRIVY TO DISCUSSIONS OVER THE LAST MONTHS, DO YOU THINK IS THAT THE UNITED STATES MIGHT MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION, THIS ADMINISTRATION, BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST LEAHY, AND THAT WAS YEARS AGO.

BUT IT'S RIGHT NOW, SENATORS LIKE CHRIS VAN HOLLEN AND OTHERS ARE SAYING THAT WE NEED TO MAKE CONDITIONAL OUR MILITARY SUPPORT ON THE RESPECT FOR INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE U.S. IS MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION AS PRESIDENT BIDEN INCREASINGLY EXPRESSES THIS DISCONTENT, DISTRESS AND DISAGREEMENT WITH THE TACTICS, IF NOT THE STRATEGY OF ISRAEL'S DEFENDING ITSELF?

>> I CERTAINLY HOPE SO.

BUT I WOULD PUSH BACK AGAINST THE CHARACTERIZATION OF ISRAEL'S BEHAVIOR AS SELF-DEFENSE.

THE ADMINISTRATION CONTINUES TO USE THOSE WORDS BECAUSE SELF-DEFENSE IS PERMISSIBLE UNDER THE U.N. CHARTER.

BUT THE ACTIONS THAT ISRAEL IS ENGAGED IN AS FAR AS LIKE WE ALREADY DISCUSSED, THE USE OF STARVATION AS A WEAPON OF WAR, CONTINUING TO HIT BUILDINGS, INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE PROTECTED UNDER INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW SUCH AS HOSPITALS, THE WAYS THAT ISRAEL IS CONDUCTING THIS WAR I WOULD ARGUE ARE FAR OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF WHAT MIGHT CREDIBLY BE CONSIDERED SELF-DEFENSE.

AND INSTEAD, I WOULD ARGUE THAT WITH -- I WOULD ADD TO THE ARGUMENT OTHERS HAVE MADE THAT ISRAEL IS COMMITTING WAR CRIMES AND IS POSSIBLY ENGAGING IN AN ACT OF GENOCIDE.

>> AND AGAIN, I HAVE TO SAY THAT OBVIOUSLY THE STATE DEPARTMENT POSITION IS ALLEGATIONS THAT ISRAEL IS COMMITTING GENOCIDE ARE UNFOUNDED.

THAT'S THE STATE DEPARTMENT POSITION.

AND YOU WOULD EXPECT ME TO READ THAT POSITION OUT.

WHAT IS THE ATMOSPHERE IN THE DISSENT CHANNEL?

BECAUSE THERE IS A DISSENT CHANNEL, AS YOU ALL TALK ABOUT.

IT HAS EXISTED I BELIEVE SINCE THE VIETNAM WAR.

AND THE SPOKESMAN MILLER WAS VERY CAREFUL TO SAY THAT THE SECRETARY OF STATE APPRECIATES DISSENT, APPRECIATES CONVERSATION.

WHETHER OR NOT THEY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY, THEY APPRECIATE THE ABILITY FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO SAY IT.

I MEAN, YOU'RE NOT DENYING THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO SAY IT, RIGHT?

YOU'RE BASICALLY DENYING THAT IT MADE A DIFFERENCE.

>> YES.

I VERY MUCH APPRECIATED THAT INSIDE STATE THEY -- ON THIS ISSUE, THEY DID CULTIVATE AN ATMOSPHERE OF OPENNESS.

LIKE I MENTIONED, THE OPEN FORUMS, THE DISSENT CHANNEL.

IT IS SOMETHING VERY MUCH THAT IS IN DISCUSSION.

AT THE SAME TIME AS THE SPOKESPERSON MENTIONED, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE POLICY NO MATTER HOW MANY MEMBERS OF THE RANK AND FILE PUSH BACK AGAINST IT.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT DOES GET DECIDED AT THE VERY TOP.

UNFORTUNATELY, I DO THINK IT'S GOING REQUIRE PRESIDENT BIDEN HIMSELF TO REALIZE THAT THIS IS EITHER BECOMING POTENTIALLY SO POLITICALLY COSTLY THAT HE REALIZES THAT IT'S TIME TO CHANGE COURSE, OR I HOPE WOULD REEXAMINE HIS ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION AND THINK MORE DEEPLY ABOUT HOW HISTORY IS GOING TO VIEW HIS ACTIONS HERE BOTH IN TERMS OF U.S. LAW AND THE IMPACT ON THE PEOPLE OF GAZA.

>> ANNELLE, VERY QUICKLY, I WONDER, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE SECOND TO ACTUALLY RESIGN.

THERE WAS JOSH PAUL.

WE ALSO INTERVIEWED HIM.

THAT'S TWO PEOPLE.

IT'S NOT A MASSIVE -- IT'S NOT A HERD, SO TO SPEAK.

AND THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE INSIDE THE STATE DEPARTMENT WHO SUPPORT THE ADMINISTRATION'S POLICY.

CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE FROM WHAT YOU KNOW INSIDE THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF HOW MUCH THE SUPPORT IS.

CAN YOU MAKE THAT JUDGMENT?

>> I KNOW THAT I SPEAK FOR MANY PEOPLE.

THERE'S A GROUP, FOR EXAMPLE, CALLED FEDS UNITED FOR PEACE.

THEY'RE OUTSIDE OF STATE, BUT IN OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, THERE ARE MANY OTHER GROUPS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.

STAFFERS FOR CEASEFIRE AMONG HILL STAFFERS.

PEOPLE ARE SHOCKED AND APPALLED BY WHAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IS DOING.

MANY PEOPLE CONTINUE TO DO THE VERY IMPORTANT WORK INSIDE THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND CONTINUE TO FEEL THAT THEIR EFFORTS ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE ON THE MANY, MANY ISSUES THAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT IS INVOLVED IN.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, I DO KNOW PEOPLE WHO MAY BE CONSIDERING RESIGNING.

>> WELL, WE APPRECIATE YOU TELLING US YOUR TRUTH, AND THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

ANNELLE SHELINE, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>>> AND NOW TO HAITI, A COUNTRY THE U.S. IS ALSO LOOKING AT.

IT IS TEETERING ON THE BRINK OF COLLAPSE AMID ESCALATING GANG VIOLENCE.

FRANCE HAS EVACUATED SOME 240 PEOPLE FROM THERE, AND MORE THAN 1,500 HAVE BEEN KILLED BY THE VIOLENCE IN HAITI SO FAR THIS YEAR.

THAT IS FROM THE U.N.'S HUMAN RIGHTS OFFICE, ANNOUNCING TODAY.

MEANWHILE, HAITI'S TRANSITIONAL PRESIDENTIAL COUNCIL IS STILL BEING FINALIZED.

IT'S AIMING TO APPOINT A NEW PRIME MINISTER TO, QUOTE, PUT HAITI BACK ON THE PATH OF DEMOCRATIC LEGITIMACY, STABILITY, AND DIGNITY.

WIDLORE MERANCOURT IS A REPORTER AT "THE WASHINGTON POST" AND EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF THE HAITIAN PUBLICATION.

HE IS JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN FROM PORT-au-PRINCE TO DISCUSS THE DETERIORATING SITUATION THERE.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

WIDLORE MERANCOURT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE BEEN REPORTING AND LIVING IN HAITI FOR YEARS NOW.

JUST IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS, DESCRIBE WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN OF YOUR COUNTRY.

>> WELL, HAITI IS LEANING TODAY TOWARDS CRISIS FOR THE PAST DECADES.

THE 29th OF FEBRUARY IN HAITI LAUNCH A SERIES OF ATTACKS AGAINST THE INSTITUTIONS, BUT NOT JUST THE INSTITUTIONS.

THEY ALSO ATTACK PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS, BUSINESSES, AND HOSPITALS.

WE VM ALMOST 50,000 PEOPLE DISPLACED BY THE VIOLENCE.

THIS IS ON TOP OF MORE THAN 300,000 PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY DISPLACED BY VIOLENCE IN HAITI.

THEY MENTION CRISIS IS EXTREMELY DIRE.

THE POLITICAL CRISIS ALSO THAT IS ON TOP IS NOT OFFERING ANY RELIEF IN SIGHT.

>> WHAT LED TO THIS MOST RECENT CRISIS?

>> WELL, THIS MOST RECENT CRISIS IS BROUGHT BY A COALITION OF GANGS IN HAITI.

THEY CALL THEMSELVES LIVE TOGETHER, WHICH IS A BEAUTIFUL FRENCH EXPRESSION AS I SAID, IT'S A COALITION OF GANGS LED BY A FORMER POLICE OFFICER.

HIS GOAL STATED AT THE TIME, YOU KNOW, LATE IN FEBRUARY WAS TO TOPPLE THE GOVERNMENT OF ARIEL HENRY.

BUT THIS MARCH HE ANNOUNCED THAT HIS GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO RESIGN.

THE ATTACKS DID NOT STOP.

AND TODAY WE STILL HAVE POLICE OFFICERS BEING KILLED BY THESE GANGS.

AND IN THE COURSE OF THIS COORDINATED ATTACK THAT I MENTIONED BEFORE, TWO OF THE BIGGEST PRISONS IN HAITI HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, LEFT OPEN WITH THOUSANDS OF INMATES, SOME OF THEM -- SOME OF THE WORST CRIMINALS, QUITE FRANKLY, IN THE COUNTRY RELEASED IN THE STREETS.

>> SO IT MAY BE A SIMPLE QUESTION, IT MAY BE A COMPLICATED ONE.

WHO IS IN CHARGE?

>> WELL, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

HAITIAN PEOPLE ARE ASKING THEMSELVES THIS QUESTION, BECAUSE IN PRACTICAL TERMS, THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT, IS NOWHERE TO BE SEEN IN HAITI.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PROBABLY THE WORST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS SINCE THE 2010 EARTHQUAKE, WHICH KILLED MORE THAN 300,000 PEOPLE.

AND TODAY, AS I SAID BEFORE, MORE THAN 350,000 PEOPLE ARE DISPLACED BY THE VIOLENCE.

WE HAVE HUNDREDS OF HOSPITALS, I MEAN SIX IN TEN HOSPITALS ARE TODAY CLOSED.

WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE AIRPORT THAT IS CLOSED BY THE GANGS' VIOLENCE.

AND ON TOP OF THAT, YOU ALSO HAVE THE MAIN PORT OF PORT-au-PRINCE SERVICES ATTACKS AT LEAST TWICE BY THE GANGS.

AND WE ARE IN A COUNTRY WHERE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THINGS THAT WE CONSUME IN HAITI COMES FROM ABROAD.

SO WHEN YOU HAVE THE AIRPORT THAT IS CLOSED AND YOU HAVE ALSO DEEP PORTS THAT ARE NOT WORKING PROPERLY, THAT MEANS CRUCIAL GOODS AND CRUCIAL THINGS THAT PEOPLE NEED TO FUNCTION, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FOOD, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MEDICAL SUPPLIES, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN 300 CONTAINERS OF HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES SEIZED BY THE GANGS.

AND THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT REALLY COMMUNICATING ON THIS ISSUE.

>> SO IF YOU CAN'T GET GOODS AND SERVICES, I SHOULD SAY GOODS INTO THE COUNTRY, WHAT'S THE RIPPLE EFFECT THERE?

THAT MEANS A BUSINESS SELLING THAT GOOD HAS TO SHUT ITS DOORS.

THAT MEANS THE EMPLOYEES OF THAT BUSINESS ARE OUT OF WORK.

THAT MEANS THE PEOPLE BUYING FOOD FROM THAT BUSINESS NO LONGER CAN, RIGHT?

>> YES, ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, THAT'S -- IT'S ADDING ON A CRISIS THAT ALREADY EXISTED, RIGHT.

WHEN GOODS CANNOT COME IN, YOU HAVE, AS YOU SAID, THE STREET MARKETS, THE SUPERMARKETS, WHICH, YOU KNOW, DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SUPPLIES TO KIND OF PUT THINGS ON THE SHELVES FOR PEOPLE TO BUY.

BUT EVEN BEFORE THAT SITUATION, EVEN WHEN THE PORT WERE FUNCTIONING MORE OR LESS, THE INEQUALITY INSIDE OF HAITI MADE IT SO THAT IT WAS ALREADY EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO GO AROUND AND BUY FOOD AND FIND FOOD.

SO MANY PEOPLE RELY ON HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IN HAITI.

AND FOR THE 2024 YEAR, THE NEED FOR HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE IS ABOVE $600 MILLION.

AND ONLY 7% OF THAT IS FUNDED.

WE ARE -- IF YOU TALK TO HUMANITARIAN FOLKS IN HAITI, THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT THEY HAVE A SENSE OF WHAT SOME FOLKS CALL THE HAITI FATIGUE, WHICH MEANS MAYBE BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY CRISES AROUND THE WORLD TODAY, OR MAYBE THE WORLD HAS TURNED ITS BACK TO HAITI, THE LEVEL OF NEEDS THAT THE HAITIAN PEOPLE HAVE, THE DIRE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION IS NOT MET BY ANY HELP.

AND THAT ALSO MEANS ON PRACTICAL TERMS HAITIAN PEOPLE GOING WITHOUT FOOD ABOUT HALF OF THE COUNTRY TODAY IS IN ACUTE HUNGER, ACCORDING TO THE U.N. YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING IN CAMPS, BEING DISPLACED BY THE GANG VIOLENCE.

YOU HAVE HOSPITALS, AS I SAID, CLOSED DOWN BY THE GANGS VIOLENCE, AND HOW HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KIDS WITH HUNDREDS OF SCHOOLS BEING CLOSED, THESE KIDS ARE BEING DENIED THE RIGHTS TO HAVE AN EDUCATION.

IN A RANDOM BASIS, TODAY WE SEE BULLETS.

>> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHO IS FILLING THIS LEADERSHIP VACUUM.

WHO RUNS THE GANGS RIGHT NOW.

WHO IS THE KIND OF DE FACTO HEAD, OR MOST POWERFUL PERSON IN HAITI?

>> SO HISTORICALLY IN HAITI, THE GANGS ARE LINKED TO THE POLITICAL SECTOR, AND ALSO THE BUSINESS SECTOR.

THEY USE THESE YOUNG MEN'S, SOMETIMES FROM EXTREMELY POOR AREAS TO ADVANCE THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

BUT INCREASINGLY IN THE PAST YEARS, WE ARE SEEING THE GANGS BROKE, AND THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY HAVE A CENTRALIZED LEAD WERE A CENTRALIZED SORT OF SETS OF GOALS.

WE HAVE A DISPARATE SORT OF TOXIC SOUP OF DIFFERENT GANGS DOING DIFFERENT THINGS, KIDNAPPING PEOPLE, RANSACKING BUSINESS, EXTORTS PEOPLE, ET CETERA.

BUT THEY ALSO HAVE SOME COMMON INTEREST IS WHY LATE LAST YEAR, JIMMY SHERZE, A POLICE OFFICER ANNOUNCED THIS ALLIANCE, AND HE RESURRECTED THIS ALLIANCE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO WITH THE STATED GOAL TO ATTACK THE GOVERNMENT.

>> WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT JIMMY?

HE IS NAMED BARBECUE.

>> JIMMY IS A FORMER POLICE OFFICER IN HAITI.

WHICH IS AND INTERESTING FACT.

ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT COMPONENTS OF THE SECURITY TODAY IN HAITI IS THE LACK OF FAITH OF THE HAITIAN PEOPLE IN THE FORMAL INSTITUTIONS SET UP TO PROTECT IT, RIGHT.

YOU HAVE POLICE OFFICERS BEING ALSO IMPLICATED IN MASSACRES, IN GANG ACTIVITIES AND SOMETIMES KIDNAPPING.

HE PARTICIPATED AROUND THAT TIME IN MANY MASSACRE, INCLUDING ONE IN LA SELENE.

DOZENS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WERE KILLED.

THE HAITIAN NATIONAL POLICE WERE TRYING TO INTERVIEW HIM TO UNDERSTAND HIS ROLE IN THESE MASSACRES.

HE LEFT.

HE FLEE.

AND THIS IS AROUND THE TIME HE BECAME THE THUG THAT WE TODAY KNOW HIM FOR.

IN THE AFTERMATH OF THESE EVENTS, HE WAS KIND OF JUST ONE OF THE SEVERAL GANG LEADERS, POWERFUL GANG LEADERS TERRIFYING THE HAITIAN POPULATION HERE IN PORT-au-PRINCE.

BUT HE MAY A SUPPOSITION IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS TO HAVE SOME POLITICAL SPEECH WITH SOME STATED OBJECTIVE THAT WOULD BE TO CONDUCT WHAT THEY CALL A REVOLUTION.

THIS REVOLUTION WOULD BE AGAINST THE CORRUPT POLITICAL CLASS, AND ALSO THE CORRUPT BUSINESS CLASS IN HAITI.

IT'S A BEAUTIFUL SPEECH, BUT JUST LIKE ANY SPEECH, IF YOU MAKE EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS, YOU NEED EXTRAORDINARY PROOF.

AND THE PROOF TODAY ON THE GROUND IS THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE VICTIMS OF GANG VIOLENCE.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE VICTIMS OF THE SHOOTINGS, THE KILLINGS, AND THE RAPES.

THE POOR PEOPLE LIVING IN APARTMENTS.

>> WITHOUT A FUNCTIONING POLICE FORCE, OR AT LEAST ANY VISIBLE POLICE PRESENCE ON THE STREET, AND GANGS ESSENTIALLY CARVING UP DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, WHAT DOES THAT DO TO -- I DON'T KNOW IF THE WORD IS MORALE, BUT HOW PEOPLE FEEL TODAY CONSIDERING ALL OF THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF CHALLENGES THAT HAITI HAS FACED FOR SO LONG?

>> WELL, I REGULARLY TALK TO POLICE OFFICERS, RIGHT.

IN THE PAST WEEKS SINCE FEBRUARY, ABOUT 12 POLICE STATIONS WERE EITHER BURNED DOWN BY ATTACKS BY THE GANGS, AND THE ATTACKS CONTINUING.

WHEN I TALK TO POLICE OFFICERS, THEY, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE THE PEOPLE SET UP TO PROTECT THE HAITIAN POPULATION.

AND THEY ARE EXTREMELY DISCOURAGED.

THEY THINK LIKE THE LEADERSHIP OF THE POLICE IS INEFFECTIVE, AND THEY ARE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES CORRECTLY.

THE GANGS THAT ARE MORE THAN -- MORE POWERFUL THAN EVER IN HAITI.

SO IF THE POLICE IS IN THAT STATE, YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT IT IS TO BE A REGULAR HAITIAN GOING AROUND PORT-au-PRINCE, BUT NOT JUST PORT-au-PRINCE, THE HAITIAN CAPITAL.

ALSO IN SO MANY OTHER PLACES.

I THINK THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY QUITE FRANKLY IS UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF GANGS' ACTIVITIES, MAKING IT DIFFICULT FOR GODS TO FLOW, MAKING DISPLACED PEOPLE, MAKING IT EXTREMELY HARD FOR FAMILIES TO GET TOGETHER, YOU KNOW, SOWING CHAOS AND DEATH AMONGST THE PEOPLE.

THE ANXIETY THAT CAUSES.

HAVE I NEIGHBORS SPEAKING TO ME ABOUT THEIR KIDS, KIDS AS LITTLE AS 7, 8, 10 YEARS OLD, REGULARLY SPEAKING ABOUT DEATH.

AND, YOU KNOW, BEING EXTREMELY STRESSED IF THEIR PARENTS GOES AROUND.

AND IT'S IDEAS THAT EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT IN THE PLACE ENTIRELY UNDER THE CONTROL OF GANGS, ONE OF THE MORE IMPORTANT FEARS IN HAITI TODAY IS BEING HIT BY STRAY BULLETS.

AND YOU WERE IN A CITY WHERE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE HOSPITALS ARE CLOSED.

THE MOST IMPORTANT, MOST PEOPLE IN PORT-au-PRINCE TODAY IS CLOSED DUE TO THE GANG VIOLENCE.

MANY DOCTORS NOT GOING TO WORK BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES.

AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A COUNTRY WHERE MORE THAN 40% OF HAITIAN-TRAINED DOCTORS TODAY ALREADY LEFT HAITI TODAY.

THE FEW OPERATING, WORKING IN THE EXTREME DIRE CONDITIONS.

>> DO PEOPLE IN HAITI WANT OUTSIDE INTERVENTION?

I MEAN, THIS IS A COUNTRY THAT'S HAD SO MANY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD TRYING TO HELP.

AND THAT EFFORT BACKFIRES.

WHERE ARE PEOPLE NOW?

WHAT IS THE PUBLIC SENTIMENT OF WANTING AN INTERVENTION FROM THE WEST, THE U.S., WHOEVER?

>> OKAY, SO I THINK THERE ARE SOME THINGS HAPPENING.

THE FIRST THING IS THE HISTORY.

THE LAST BEING FOR INTERVENTION IN HAITI WAS, YOU KNOW, FROM -- THAT 2004 AND 2007 WITH THE UNITED NATIONS.

AND ALTHOUGH THIS MISSION HELPED TONE DOWN AGAINST THE VIOLENCE, HELPED STABILIZE THE COUNTRY FOR A MOMENT, BUT IT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR HUNDREDS OF CASES OF VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

WE HAVE A MISSION THAT BRINGS CHOLERA TO HAITI.

AND FOR A LONG TIME, THE UNITED NATIONS REFUSED TO RECOGNIZE ITS ROLE IN BRINGING THE CHOLERA THAT KILLED ABOUT 10,000 PEOPLE AND INFECTED MANY MORE.

AND STILL TODAY HAITI IS FACING THIS CHOLERA WHILE WE HAVE ALL THE CRISES THAT I DESCRIBED BEFORE.

YOU ALSO HAVE THE IMPLICATION OF THE U.S.

IN SUPPORTING THE DICTATORSHIP OF DUVALIER TO 1986.

YOU HAVE THE U.S.

OCCUPATION FROM 1914 TO 1934.

YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW -- IF YOU GO EVEN UP, YOU CAN ALSO FIND THE INNOCENCE, THE 1825 RANSOM THAT HAITI HAD TO PAY TO FRANCE AFTER HAITI SOLDIERS KIND OF TOOK THEIR FREEDOM FROM FRANCE.

SO I THINK THIS IS FRESH IN PEOPLE'S MEMORY.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, MANY HAITIANS ACTUALLY RECOGNIZE THAT THE HAITIAN NATIONAL POLICE, THE HAITIAN FORCES ARE -- TURN DOWN AGAINST THE GANGS TO FIGHT BACK, AGAINST THE GANGS THAT ARE EXTREMELY POWERFUL.

A COLLECTION OF BUSINESS CONDUCTED A POLL IN THE PAST YEARS THAT WOULD INDICATE THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE FOR SOME INTERVENTION.

HOWEVER, HOW THIS INTERVENTION IS GOING TO BE CONDUCTED, WHAT COMPONENT OF IT IS GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW, SUPPORTING AND STRENGTHENING THE HAITIAN NATIONAL POLICE, THESE ARE OPEN QUESTIONS, BECAUSE IF THIS IS TO BE SUSTAINABLE, IF THIS IS TO BE DOABLE, IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING LED BY THE HAITIAN PEOPLE.

HAITIAN PEOPLE CAN TAKE THEIR OWN DESTINY.

AND BRING SECURITY TO THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES.

>> I KNOW THIS IS DIFFICULT TO MEASURE, BUT CAN YOU DETECT WHAT THE LEVEL OF OPTIMISM OR HOPE IS IN PEOPLE THAT THIS CRISIS TOO SHALL PASS?

ARE THEY INCREASINGLY DEPRESSED ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?

WHAT ARE YOU GET IS A SENSE WHEN YOU GO OUT IN THE FIELD AND REPORT ON SO MANY OF YOUR STORIES?

>> I SPOKE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS OF DOCTORS FLEEING HAITI IN THE PAST YEARS TO FIND A BETTER LIFE ABROAD, TO FIND OTHER OPPORTUNITIES.

BUT SO MANY DOCTORS ACTUALLY TODAY GO EVERY DAY TO THE FEW HOSPITALS THAT ARE FUNCTIONING TO HELP PEOPLE.

WHEN I'M MEETING WITH HUMANITARIAN PEOPLE, NOT JUST PEOPLE COMING FROM ABROAD IN THE INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS, BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE FOLKS GOING TO DISTRIBUTE FOOD, GOING TO HELP IN POOR NEIGHBORHOODS, GOING IN NEIGHBORHOODS ACTUALLY CONTROLLED BY THE GANGS ARE HAITIAN.

HAITIAN INSTITUTIONS AND HAITIAN PEOPLE.

WHEN I SPEAK TO, YOU KNOW, POLICE OFFICERS, DESPITE EVERYTHING, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY'RE NOT PAID WELL, DESPITE THE FACT THEY ARE UNEQUIPPED, THEY FEEL A SENSE OF DUTY.

SO MANY OF THEM TELL ME, TO SERVE AND TO HELP.

WHEN I SEE REGULAR HAITIANS, YOU KNOW, HELPING AND SHARING WHAT THEY HAVE TO HELP NEIGHBORS AND TO ASSIST HOWEVER THEY CAN, THESE ARE SMALL INDICATIONS FOR ME THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT HOPELESS.

PEOPLE ARE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY, AND PEOPLE KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, A BETTER FUTURE IS POSSIBLE WHENEVER THEY GET TOGETHER.

AND TRY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THEIR OWN SITUATIONS.

>> WIDLORE MERANCOURT OF "THE WASHINGTON POST" JOINING US FROM HAITI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, WE REMEMBER A PIONEERING FIGURE IN BEHAVIORAL ECONOMICS.

DANIEL CARNEHMAN PASSED AWAY THIS WEEK AT THE AGE OF 90.

HE WON THE NOBEL PRICE IN ECONOMICS ALONGSIDE VERNON SMITH FOR THEIR REVOLUTIONARY WORK THAT CHANGED THE WAY WE UNDERSTAND HUMAN ERROR AND DECISION MAKING.

KARNAMAN WAS A MASTER IN EXPOSING THE BEHAVIORAL CLERKS WE ALL HAVE AND HOW IRRATIONAL WE CAN ALL BE.

IN 2021, HE EXPLAINED TO BIANNA GOAL RIGA.

>> ELIMINATING THE RISK COMPLETELY IS NOT RATIONAL, BECAUSE ELIMINATING THE RISK COMPLETELY MEANS THAT MANY PEOPLE WILL DIE FROM THE DISEASE.

SO SOME BALANCE MUST BE FOUND, BUT CALL OF US HAVE THAT REACTION THAT THE VACCINE IS SOMEHOW WE HATE THE IDEA OF THE VACCINE KILLING PEOPLE MORE THAN WE HATE THE IDEA OF PEOPLE DYING FROM THE DISEASE.

>> BALANCE INDEED.

FORMER PRINCETON UNIVERSITY COLLEAGUE CALLED KARNAMAN A, QUOTE, GIANT IN THE FIELD.

AND IN 2013, HE WAS AWARDED THE MEDAL OF FREEDOM BY PRESIDENT OBAMA.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.