>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," WE'RE COMING TO YOU FROM THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY.

WITH CHARLIE BAKER ON HIS WAY OUT, MOST POLITICAL OBSERVERS SAY IT'S VERY LIKELY MASSACHUSETTS WILL BE JOINING MOST OF THE REST OF THE COUNTRY AS A SINGLE-PARTY STATE, WITH THE SAME PARTY IN CHARGE OF THE LEGISLATURE AND THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE.

SO WHAT DO WE STAND TO LOSE WHEN WE LOSE PARTISAN COMPETITION, WHEN WE LOSE CHECKS AND BALANCES?

THEN, LATER, POSSIBLY A PARTIAL ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, POSSIBLY NOT, BY WAY OF RECENT HISTORY, I'M JOINED BY THE DIRECTOR AND REPORTER BEHIND THE NEW FRONTLINE DOCUMENTARY: "PLOT TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION."

♪♪ >> BRAUDE: COMPETITION IS AT THE HEART OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

HEART OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

TWO OR MORE PARTIES ARE SUPPOSED TO GO HEAD-TO-HEAD BEFORE THE PUBLIC TO HOLD EACH OTHER ACCOUNTABLE.

BUT OVER THE PAST FEW DECADES, THAT RESPECTFUL EXCHANGE OF IDEAS HAS BEEN HARDER TO COME BY, EXACERBATED BY THE LIKES OF DONALD TRUMP, WHO HAS NOT ONLY STOKED PARTISAN ANIMOSITY, BUT NOTORIOUSLY EMBRACED AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SET OF SO-CALLED "ALTERNATIVE FACTS" FOR HIS SUPPORTERS.

THANKS TO THAT "TRUMPIFICATION" OF THE G.O.P., THE STRONG RISE OF PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENTS, A WHOLE LOT OF GERRYMANDERING, AND A FEW OTHER FACTORS, THE TWO MAJOR U.S. PARTIES ARE MOVING FURTHER FROM THE CENTER EVERY MINUTE, AND PARTISAN BALANCE BACK IN THE STATES IS DISAPPEARING.

THAT INCLUDES HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, ONE OF ONLY 12 STATES WHERE ONE PARTY CONTROLS THE LEGISLATURE, THE OTHER, THE CORNER OFFICE.

I'LL DO THE MATH FOR YOU.

THAT MEANS IN THE OTHER 38, THERE'S ONE PARTY IN CONTROL OF ALL OF IT.

AND AS KARA VOGHT WRITES THIS WEEK, IN "THE ATLANTIC," THE DECISION BY CHARLIE BAKER, ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST POPULAR GOVERNORS, AND A MODERATE, NOT TO RUN FOR REELECTION IN A HEAVILY DEMOCRATIC STATE "IS A DARK OMEN FOR THE FUTURE OF AMERICA'S TWO-PARTY SYSTEM."

JOINING ME ARE JENNIFER NASSOUR, FORMER CHAIR OF THE MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT OF THE POCKETBOOK PROJECT, AND STEVE KERRIGAN, FORMER C.E.O.

OF THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION AND PRESIDENT OF BARACK OBAMA'S INAUGURAL COMMITTEE.

>> Braude: LONG TIME.

IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU BOTH.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> NICE TO BE HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: JENNIFER, THE THESIS OF THIS PIECE IN THE ATLANTIC IS THAT TRUMPERS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN MASSACHUSETTS DROVE CHARLIE BAKER OUT OF THE GOVERNORSHIP, AT LEAST DROVE HIS DECISION NOT TO RUN.

YOUR FACE SUGGESTS YOU DON'T BUY IT?

>> NO, I DON'T BUY IT AT ALL.

CHARLIE BAKE HAS BEEN GOVERNOR FOR SEVEN YEARS NOW, AND AT SOME POINT, IT IS TIME TO, YOU KNOW, TO MOVE ON.

HE STARTED WITH SNOWMAGEDDON, WHERE WE HAD SNOWSTORMS ALMOST EVERY DAY, AND HE IS ENDING THIS TIME AS BEING GOVERNOR THROUGH A WORLD-LIKE PANDEMIC THAT HAS TAKEN MASSACHUSETTS TWO YEARS TO MOVE OUT OF.

I WOULD SAY AT THIS POINT, HE IS PROBABLY EXHAUSTED.

HIS FAMILY IS EXHAUSTED, AND HE IS STILL YOUNG ENOUGH TO GO ON AND HAVE ANOTHER CHAPTER IN HIS CAREER.

>> Braude: JENNIFER, EVEN IF EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS TRUE, WHAT IS ALSO TRUE IN A POLL AT THE END OF LAST YEAR, THREE-QUARTERS OF REPUBLICANS, IN YOUR PARTY IN MASSACHUSETTS, SAID THEY WERE LOYAL TO TRUMP.

68% OF REPUBLICANS IN THIS STATE SAID THAT JOE BIDEN WAS NOT THE LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

COULD CHARLIE BAKE EVEN HAVE WON A PRIMARY IN THAT PARTY?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

CHARLIE BAKER WOULD NOT ONLY WIN A PRIMARY, BUT HE WOULD WIN THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE AGAIN.

A POLL IS A POLL, AND WHO IS ANSWERING THOSE POLLS.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO ANSWER THOSE POLLS.

BRAWRMD>> Braude: STEVE DOES.

HE HAS PLENTY OF TIME.

>> WHAT WE SEE WITH POLLS, IS THEY'RE GOOD FOR EVERYONE WHO ANSWERS THEM.

BUT FOR EVERYONE ELSE, WHEN YOU LOOK AT BAKER'S RECORD AND ALL OF THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS THAT HAVE SERVED IN MASSACHUSETTS, THEY HAVE ALL BEEN AMAZING FISCAL MANAGERS, AND WE HAVE HAD THE ECONOMY ON TRACK AND BUSINESSES GOING.

>> Braude: FAIR ENOUGH.

STEVE, ARE YOU BUYING THIS NOTION THAT CHARLIE CHARLIE BAKER -- I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH JENNIFER, BUT THE NUMBERS SUGGEST HE COULDN'T HAVE WON A PRIMARY, COULD HE?

>> I TEND TO -- AS MUCH AS IT PAINS ME, I AT LEAST TEND TO AGREE WITH PART OF WHAT JEN SAID.

>> Braude: WHAT PART?

>> I THINK HE PROBABLY COULD HAVE WON HIS PRIMARY.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A LOT HARDER.

THEY'RE IN SUCH DISARRAY AT THE STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHO KNOWS WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED WITH THE STATE CONVENTION AND ALL OF THAT, BUT I THINK HE WOULD HAVE FOUND A WAY TO INK OUT OF NOMINATION.

I DO NOT THINK IF MAUR HE'LL HOOLMAURAHEALEY WAS ON THE BALLOT AGAINST HIM, HE WOULDN'T, BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN FUN TO WATCH.

>> Braude: I THINK THE POLLS SUGGEST, AND REALITY MAY SUGGEST, MAY CHANGE BY THE FALL, THAT WITH BAKER OUT OF THE RACE, IT IS MORE LIKELY IT BECOMES A ONE-PARTY STATE.

IT WOULD BE A ONE-PARTY DEMOCRATIC STATE.

DOES THAT TROUBLE YOU AT ALL, IN TERMS OF SMALL "D" DEMOCRACY?

NOT THE CAPITAL "D." >> NO.

REGARDLESS OF YOUR PARTY, THE GOVERNOR HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO SELL THEIR AGENDA TO THE COMMONWEALTH AND THE PEOPLE OF THE LEGISLATURE.

THERE HAS BEEN A HEALTHY CONTENTION BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE AND THE LEGISLATURE.

WE SAW IT DURING DEVAL PATRICK'S ADMINISTRATION.

THEY WERE CONSTANTLY AT LOGGERHEADS.

AND IT HAPPENED DURING DUKAKIS.

HE LOST THE OFFICE AND CAME BACK.

SO THERE IS ALWAYS THAT TENSION.

THIS IS ABOUT LEADERSHIP AND NOT PARTISANSHIP -- >> Braude: STEVE, THERE WERE THREE FELONIOUS DEMOCRATIC SPEAKERS IN A ROW, AND MY THESIS IS THAT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED IF THERE WAS MORE BALANCE IN THE STATE GOVERNMENT, WITHIN THE LEGISLATURE ITSELF.

IS THAT NOT A FAIR CONCLUSION TO REACH?

>> I HAVE SAID PROBABLY THE BEST THINGS FOR LITTLE "D" DEMOCRACY AND BIG "D" DEMOCRACY, WOULD BE A STRONGER REPUBLICAN PARTY IN MASSACHUSETTS.

THEY CAN'T SEEM TO GET OUT OF THE WAY, WHETHER THEY'RE SUPPORTING DONALD TRUMP AND HANDCUFFING -- BECAUSE OF THAT WANNABY OUGHTWANNABYAUTOCRAT IN DONALD TRUMP.

IN THE VACUUM OF THAT, AND IF A DEMOCRAT WINS IN NOVEMBER, GOD WILLING, THEN WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THAT DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT THE FUTURE OF THE COMMONWEALTH PLAYS, BUT IT WILL BE UP O THE GOVERNOR.

HISTORY DOES NOT SHOW OUR LEGISLATURE WILLING TO STEP ASIDE AND ABDICATE THAT RESPONSIBILITY.

>> Braude: JEN, HOW MUCH SHOULD VOTERS WORRY, IF AT ALL, ABOUT ONE-PARTY RULE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

STEVE IS RIGHT ABOUT DEVAL PATRICK'S GOVERNORSHIP.

IT WASN'T A WALK-OVER FOR HIM AND HIS LEGISLATURE.

IN SOME WAYS, I GOT THE SENSE THEY RESENTED THE FACT THAT THE SPOTLIGHT WAS REDIRECTED TO THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR AND AWAY FROM THE SPEAKER AND THE SENATE PRESIDENT.

HOW MUCH CONCERN WOULD YOU HAVE ABOUT AN ALL DEMOCRATIC GOVERNING BODY IN MASSACHUSETTS?

>> I HAVE A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT IT, BECAUSE GOING BACK TO YOUR-POINT YOUR POINT OF SMALL "D" DEMOCRACY, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS DEMOCRACY IS MAKING SURE WE HAVE A BALANCE OF POWER, MAKING SURE THAT THE BEST PEOPLE ARE ELECTED TO OFFICE.

NOW, I DON'T AGREE THAT -- I DON'T AGREE THAT MASS REPUBLICANS ARE IN DISARRAY.

THE MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN PARTY -- I HAVE A LOT OF THINGS TO SAY, BUT I CAN'T SAY THEM ON AIR BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT APPROPRIATE.

BUT WHAT I WILL SAY IS THAT WE NEED TO SEPARATE THAT APPARATUS FROM THE ACTUAL VOTERS.

AND I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT 57% OF VOTERS IN MASSACHUSETTS ACTUALLY CONSIDER THEMSELVES UNENROLLED.

SO IF THOSEP THOSE VOTERS WANTED TO HAVE THEMSELVES VOTE ALL OF THE TIME FOR DEMOCRATS, AND THEY WANTED DEMOCRATS IN OFFICE ALL OF THE TIME, THEY WOULD BE DEMOCRATS.

>> Braude: JUST ONE SECOND.

JEN, WHEN YOU SAY THAT REPUBLICAN PARTY ITSELF, THE MEMBERS ARE NOT IN DISARRAY, THE REASON THEY'RE NOT IN DISARRAY IS BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT ANY MEMBERS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

LET ME RUN SOME STATISTICS BY YOU.

10% OF REGISTERED VOTERS ARE REPUBLICANS.

ONLY 31 SEATS HELD BY REPUBLICANS.

AND THE GUY THAT IS THE CHAIR OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY DOESN'T CONDEMN HOMOPHOBIA, HAS A FINANCIAL -- I DON'T MEAN PERSONAL, BUT ORGANIZATIONAL PROBLEMS, AND TRASHES THE MOST POPULAR GOVERNOR IN AMERICA.

SO THE FUTURE OF REPUBLICANS INTRASTATE IS MISERABLE, IS IT NOT?

>> NO.

BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT.

I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE CANDIDATES THAT WE DO HAVE OUT RIGHT NOW, IF YOU LOOK AT ANTHONY AMORE, WHO IS RUNNING FOR AUDITOR, HE IS VERY STRONG, VERY SMART, AND HE IS VERY PROFESSIONAL.

IF YOU LOOK AT CHRIS DOWDY, WHO IS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, FORGET ABOUT THE OTHER PEOPLE AND THINGS THAT ARE BEING SAID, AGAIN, BUSINESSMAN, REALLY SMART FISCAL ACUMEN, I THINK THAT'S WHAT MASSACHUSETTS REALLY WANTS AND LIKES -- >> Braude: BEFORE I GET TO STEVE, YOU MENTIONED JODY, AND YOU DIDN'T MENTION JEFF STEELE, WHO SHARED TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN -- I DON'T KNOW IF HE IS FOR TRUMP OR AGAINST HIM.

HERE IS DODY WITH ADAM REILLY ON TALKING POLITICS.

LISTEN TO WHAT HE HAD TO SAY.

>> I DON'T REMEMBER SAYING I WAS A MODERATE.

I DON'T COME FROM A SKYSCRAPER IN BOSTON.

I COME FROM A MANUFACTURING BACKGROUND.

I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH WORKING FAMILIES MY WHOLE LIFE, AND I HAVE MY OWN VIEWS AND MY OWN PERSPECTIVES IN LIFE SOCIO-I WOULDLIFE, SO IWOULD SAY I'M A CHRIS DODDY REPUBLICAN.

>> Braude: WHEN THE ONLY REPUBLICANS THAT GETcíá(b ELECTED RUN AS MODERATES, HE IS SCARED OF THEIe WING OF YOUR PARTY, TRUE?

>> I DON'T THINK HE IS SCARED OF THE TRUMP PARTY.

HE IS A FIRST-TIME CANDIDATE, KIND OF STUMBLING OVER WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

YOU KNOW WE KNOW THERE IS ALWAYS LITTLE DOTS, AND THAT WAS ONE OF THOSE TIMES.

>> Braude: I'VE GOT TO GET THE GUY WHO IS LAUGHING INTO THIS CONVERSATION.

WHY ARE YOU LAUGHING, STEVE?

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT QUESTION SAIS A GOTCHA QUESTION.

BUT THE ONLY REPUBLICANS TO GET ELECTED IN MY LIFETIME IN MASSACHUSETTS HAVE BEEN MODERATE REPUBLICANS.

THEY HAVE TERRIFIED CHRIS BECAUSE HE HAS TO GET THROUGH THEIR CONVENTION PROCESS AND THEIR PRIMARY, AND THEY TERRIFIED HIM IF HE IDENTIFIES AS A MODERATE, HE WILL LOSE.

REGARDLESS OF WHICH ONE OF THE TWO BECOME THE NOMINEE, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WILL DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO HOLD ON TO THIS.

THEY WILL THROW A DIRTY RAG AGAINST WHOEVER THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS.

THEY HAVE OUTNUMBERED US TWO TO ONE WITH MONEY.

THEY'LL DO ANYTHING AND SAY ANYTHING TO GET ELECTED.

THE MOST HONEST THING HE COULD HAVE SAID IS WAS A MODERATE.

AND HE WOULD HAVE PICKED UP 50% OF THE VOTERS, SHOULD HE GET PAST THEIR PRIMARY, BUT HE WAS NERVOUS ABOUT DOING THAT.

>> Braude: JEN, WE TALKED ABOUT THE DISMAL STATE OF REPAIR.

WE HAVE JOHN SUNUNU, WHO SAYS HE IS NOT RUNNING, AND YOU HAVE PHIL SCOTT, THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR OF VERMONT, I WOULD ARGUE HAD A PRETTY DESCENT SHOT AT THE SEAT OF PATRICK LEAHY, AND HE IS NOT RUNNING.

AND LOOK AT THESE STUNNING NUMBERS PUBLISHED IN POLIÍTICO, THE MASSACHUSETTS PLAYBOOK.

"MASSACHUSETTS-BASED CONTRIBUTIONS, TO NEW HAMPSHIRE CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATES, $317,000.

TO MASSACHUSETTS G.O.P.

CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATES, A THIRD THAT MUCH, $128,000.

BY THE WAY, TWO OF THE CANDIDATES RUNNING AGAINST JAKE AUCHINCLOSS, WHO GOT SOME OF THAT MONEY, AREN'T EVEN RUNNING ANYMORE.

SO THIS IS A DISASTER FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THE NORTHEAST, IS IT NOT?

>> SO...NO.

I THINK THAT, NOW, BY THE WAY, IT IS CHRIS SUNUNU, NOT JOHN SUNUNU -- >> Braude: THAT'S RIGHT.

OF COURSE.

>> A LOT OF SUNUNUs.

>> CHRIS SUNUNU HAS A YOUNG FAMILY, GOING TO WASHINGTON, D.C. MAY NOT BE WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

WASHINGTON, D.C. IS A MESS.

IF YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT, YOU CAN'T AGREE WITH WHAT GOES ON ON THE A.O.C.

PARTY OF THE PARTY.

WASHINGTON IS A MESS.

YOU HAVE TO THINK IF YOU WANT TO LEAVE THE STATE THAT YOU LOVE AND GO TO D.C. AND GO INTO THE SWAMP AND DEAL WITH EVERYONE.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

>> Braude: YOU SOUND LIKE JOE BIDEN, NUMBER ONE, NUMBER TWO.

GO AHEAD.

>> I DON'T HAVE A TELEPROMPTER -- >> Braude: BADDA BUM... >> GOING BACK TO WHAT STEVE WAS SAYING, I'M NOT SURE THAT THE MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN PARTY APPARATUS CAN EVEN HOST A CONVENTION.

THEY HAVE NO MONEY.

THEY'RE BEGGING PEOPLE FOR THEIR DEEP SEED AS DELEGATES.

I'M HAVING A PERSONAL ISSUE WITH EVEN GIVING THEM ANY MONEY TO BE A DELEGATE FOR THIS CONVENTION.

AND WHEN CHRIS DOWDY IS THE NOMINEE FOR THE MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN SIDE, NOT THE PARTY, JIM LIONS AND THE PARTY WILL DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO DESTROY THAT AND HAND IT OVER TO THE DEMOCRATS.

>> Braude: I'VE GOT TO HOLD YOU THERE.

STEVE, WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT.

IN A BIPARTISAN WAY, AND YOU DO HAVE BIPARTISAN MOMENTS, I'M SERIOUS ABOUT THIS, WHAT WOULD YOUR ADVICE BE TO REPUBLICANS BOTH HERE AND THROUGHOUT NEW ENGLAND, BUT PARTICULARLY WITHIN MASSACHUSETTS, TO REGAIN SOME FOOTING IN ANY RACES, LEGISLATIVE, STATE-WIDE RACES, INCLUDING GOVERNOR?

>> I THINK PEOPLE IN THE MASSACHUSETTS, IT WOULD BE THE SAME ADVICE I WOULD GIVE DEMOCRATS, WHICH S: PEOPLE IN MASSACHUSETTS WANT RESULTS.

THEY WANT PEOPLE WITH A PLAN, PEOPLE WITH A REAL AGENDA.

AND THEY DON'T, DESPITE THE MACHINATIONS OF SOME, THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN BEING HYPERPARTISAN.

IN THE END, THAT'S WHY 57% OF THE STATE IS UNENROLLED.

SO COME TO THE TABLE WITH REAL IDEAS AND REAL PLANS, AND I THINK MORE FOLKS WOULD VOTE FOR U.I THOUGHT YOU.

I THOUGHT WE DID A GOOD JOB IN 2014, BUT THEY BEAT US BY 40,000 VOTES.

I REACHED OUT TO HIM, WHEN HE SAID HE WASN'T RUNNING FOR A THIRD TERM, AND I THANKED HIM FOR HIS SERVICE.

AND I WANT TO THANK HIM AGAIN HERE.

IT IS NOT AN EASY THING TO DO.

BUT DID I AGREE WITH HIM ON EVERYTHING ABSOLUTELY NOT, BUT I APPRECIATE HIS WILLINGNESS TO SERVE THE COMMONWEALTH, AND I WISH HIM WELL.

>> BRAUDE: JENNIFER NASSOUR, STEVE KERRIGAN, THANKS.

TO CONTINUE THE THEME OF THE DECLINE OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, ALMOST A YEAR AND A-HALF SINCE JOE BIDEN SECURED THE ELECTORAL VOTES NEEDED TO WIN THE PRESIDENCY, SOME TWO THIRDS OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS BELIEVE THE LIE THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM DONALD TRUMP THROUGH VOTER FRAUD, AND AS I MENTIONED, THAT INCLUDES RIGHT HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

A NEW DOCUMENTARY FROM FRONTLINE, IN COLLABORATION WITH PROPUBLICA, EXPLORES THE ORIGINS OF THIS LIE, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ADVANCING IT, AND HOW IT WENT FROM THE POLITICAL FRINGES TO THE CORE OF A MAJOR U.S. PARTY: >> DECERTIFY THE NOVEMBER 2020 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION!

[CROWD CHEERS] >> IF YOU DON'T THINK THAT FRAUD EXISTS IN THE ELECTION, IF YOU DON'T THINK THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN, YOU'RE EITHER STUPID, OR YOU'RE JUST NOT THAT BRIGHT.

>> BRAUDE: THE FILM IS "PLOT TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION."

IT PREMIERES TONIGHT AT 10:00 HERE ON GBH 2.

I'M JOINED BY CORRESPONDENT A.C. THOMPSON AND DIRECTOR AND PRODUCER SAMUEL BLACK.

>> Braude: SAM, IT'S GOOD TO MEET YOU.

A.C., GOOD DO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US ON.

>> Braude: GENTLEMEN, CAN WE START BY INTRODUCING A PLACE AND A MAN I'M GUESSING MOST PEOPLE HAD NOT HEARD OF BEFORE THIS FILM.

A.C., STARTING WITH YOU, WHAT IS ANTERUM COUNTY AND WHY DOES IT MATTER?

>> ANTERUM COUNTY IS A COUNTY IN REMOTE NORTHERN MICHIGAN, A SMALL, GENERALLY RURAL AREA.

AND DURING THE 2020 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, THEY HAD A STAF FEW SNAFU WITH THE BALLOT.

IT LED TO LOOKING LIKE FOR A MOMENT THAT JOE BIDEN HAD WON THIS PREDOMINANTLY REPUBLICAN TOWN, REDOMINANTLY REPUBLICAN COUNTY.

AND THAT SORT OF ENDED UP BEING A ANOMALY THAT CONSPIRATORS FIXATED ON AND USED TO CREATE THIS NARRATIVE THERE WAS MASSIVE ELECTION FRAUD ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

WHAT HAPPENED IN THE COUNTY WAS SEIZED ON BY THE PRESIDENT.

SAMUEL, YOU SHOULD EXPLAIN THE DETAILS HERE.

>> Braude: HOW ABOUT IT, SAMUEL?

>> ANTERUM COUNTY BECOME ONE OF THE ORIGIN POINTS FOR THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

THE MYTH OF THE STOLEN ELECTION, WHICH OUR FILM COVERS, ONE OF THE ROOTS IS ANTERUM COUNTY.

IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE HUMAN ERROR THAT CAUSED THE VOTES TO BE SWITCHED THERE, THERE WAS A GROUP THAT ARRIVED ON A PRIVATE JET AND REALLY SHOCKED THE LOCAL FOLKS THERE, THAT THIS GROUP HAD ARRIVED.

AND THEY ENDED UP WRITING A REPORT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THERE, BUT THEIR REPORT WAS RIDDLED WITH INACCURACIES.

THIS REPORT WAS SHARED WITH THE WHITE HOUSE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SHARED IT WITH HIS TEAM, AND TRUMP EVEN QUOTED FROM THE REPORT ON JANUARY 6, WHEN HE SPOKE TO THE CROWD OUTSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> Braude: LET ME JUST BE CLEAR HERE, ALSO, FOR THOSE WHO ARE WATCHING AND SAYING, WELL, IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE, THERE IS A BIAS ON THE PART OF THOSE WHO DETERMINE WHETHER IT WAS COOKED OR HUMAN ERROR.

THE WOMAN WHO WAS THE CLERK, A.C., YOU INTERVIEWED, SHE SAID, IT'S ON ME.

I MADE THE MISTAKE THAT LED TO THIS ABERRATION THAT WAS ULTIMATELY FIXED, CORRECT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND SHE IS A REPUBLICAN WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP.

CHERYL GUY IS HER NAME, THE COUNTY CLERK, AND SHE SAID SHE HAS BEEN HARASSED AND BAWCHED ABUSED AND THREATENED BY HER FELLOW REPUBLICANS.

>> Braude: SAMUEL, YOU MENTIONED A PRIVATE PLANE WHO CAME IN WITH PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T INDENTIFIES THEMSELVES.

IDENTIFY THEMSELVES.

IT WAS FUNDED BY A GUY BY THE NAME OF PATRICK BURN.

WHO IS HE?

>> PATRICK BURN IS ONE -- HE IS A FORMER C.E.O.

OF OVERSTOCK.COM, THE ONLINE RETAILER.

HE IS ONE OF THE BIGGER FIGURES IN THIS WORLD OF PEOPLE WHO SPREAD THE MYTH OF THE STOLEN 2020 ELECTION.

HE IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST FUNDERS OF THE GROWING MOVEMENT AROUND THIS.

AND HE HAS HAD -- HE HAS HAD A LARGE ROLE IN FUNDING AUDITS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN 2021, AFTER BIDEN'S ELECTION, AUDITS, FOR INSTANCE, THAT WE COVER IN MARICOPA COUNTY, ARIZONA, WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN RELITIGATING THE 2020 ELECTION.

SO BURN IS AN INTERESTING FIGURE, BUT SOMEONE WHO HAS REALLY STAKED HIS REPUTATION ON THIS ISSUE, BUT HAS A BACKGROUND OF BEING A CONSPIRACY THERAPIST IN MANY REGARDS.

>> Braude: AND, A.C., YOU SAY TO HIM, IF YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU SAVE THE COUNTRY; IF YOU'RE WRONG, YOU DESTROY THE COUNTRY.

AND HE READILY AGREED WITH YOUR STATEMENT.

A.C., I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE SPREAD OF THIS INFORMATION.

ONCE IT CAME OUT OF ANTERUM COUNTY, IT WAS HELPED ALONG AT THE PLANTATION OF LYNN WOOD, ONE OF THE LAWYERS WHO HELPED TRUMP ATTEMPT, UNSUCCESSFULLY, TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS.

HERE YOU SPOKE TO A PROPUBLICA REPORTER, AND MENTIONED THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SPOKE ON THE PHONE WITH LAWYERS THERE AT LEAST ONCE.

HERE IS PART OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH HIM.

>> WE GOT AHOLD OF THUNSZ OFHUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF E-MAILS.

>> THIS SHOWS A SET OF E-MAILS THAT SHOW HOW THEY CRAFTED ONE OF THE LAWSUITS IN ORDER TO TRY TO GET ACCESS TO THE DOMINION MACHINES.

>> SO VERSIONS OF THIS END UP GETTING USED IN LAWSUITS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY?

>> UH-HUH.

SO THE NEXT DAY -- >> HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN THIS?

>> NO.

>> Braude: A.C., WHEN YOU WERE HERE A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO, I ASKED A QUESTION I KNOW IS IMPOSSIBLE.

SO I'M GOING TO ASK YOU THE SAME IMPOSSIBLE QUESTION: DO PEOPLE AT THAT PLANTATION ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS MYTH, THIS LIE, THAT BEGAN PERCOLATING OUT OF ANTERUM COUNTY, OR DID THEY JUST SEIZE ON IT BECAUSE IT WAS HELPFUL TO THEIR CAUSE?

>> IT IS STILL A GREAT QUESTION AND IMPOSSIBLE TO ANSWER.

BUT HERE IS MY ANSWER: OVERWHELMING THE PEOPLE THAT WE MET ON THIS REPORTING JOURNEY ARE TRUE BELIEVERS.

THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY ADAMANT THAT THERE WAS MASSIVE FRAUD IN THE 2020 ELECTION.

SO IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MICHAEL FLYNN, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LYNN WOOD, SIDNEY POWELL, PATRICK BURN, THE PEOPLE WHO GATHERED ON THE PLANTATION AND HELPED DISSEMINATE THIS MYTHOLOGY, THE ONES THAT WE ENCOUNTERED, AND THE PEOPLE IN THEIR CIRCLES, ALL TELL US THEY ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THIS.

THE DIFFERENCE IS SOME OF THE REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS OUT THERE, I THINK, DO NOT BELIEVE THIS, AND THEY'RE JUST RUNNING ON THIS ISSUE BECAUSE IT IS POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT, AND THAT'S HOW YOU CATER TO THE BASE.

>> Braude: IF PEOPLE ALSO COME INTO THIS FILM, SAYING PUTTING ASIDE ELECTEDELECTED OFFICIALS OR HIGH-RANKING REPUBLICAN INFRASTRUCTURE TYPES, HOW DO THE RANK-AND-FILE FEEL ABOUT IT, YOU SAY THE BRILLIANCE OF DONALD TRUMP PRESIDENT, WELL, CANDIDATE FOR RE-ELECTION, ESSENTIALLY GROOMING HIS VOTERS FOR THE BELIEF THAT THE ELECTION IS GOING TO BE STOLEN.

SO WHEN HE HEARD THE STORIES, LIKE OUT OF ANTERUM COUNTY, THEY WERE READY FOR IT, NO?

>> THAT'S TRUE.

AND DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN SAYING IF HE DIDN'T WIN THE ELECTION, SINCE 2016, HE HAS BEEN SAYING THAT WOULD MEAN THE VOTES HAD BEEN RIGGED.

I THINK WE FOUND IT IS ONE THING FOR THE PRESIDENT, OR FORMER PRESIDENT TO SAY THAT.

IT IS ANOTHER THING FOR THE -- THE SPECIFICITY OF THESE CONSPIRACY THEORIES IS PART OF WHAT HAS DRAWN PEOPLE.

ACCORDING TO MOST POLLS, TWO-THIRDS OF REPUBLICANS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT BIDEN WAS LEGITIMATELY ELECTED.

THE SPECIFICITY, WHETHER IT IS DOMINION MACHINES OR OTHER INACCURATE CLAIMS ABOUT THE ELECTION, THAT'S WHAT THE FOLKS WE COVERED LENT TO THIS EFFORT, AND THAT'S HOW THEY HAVE DRIVEN THIS NARRATIVE FAR BEYOND WHAT TRUMP COULD HAVE ACCOMPLISHED ALONE.

>> Braude: A.C., I WANT TO TALK ABOUT FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY.

YOU INTERVIEWED THIS ARIZONA SUPERVISOR, AND HE AND HIS COLLEAGUES COMMISSIONED AN ANALYSIS OF THE AUDIT, WHICH HE OPPOSED.

THE AUDIT IS A SHAM.

HE WAS THREATENED WITH ARREST, AND RECEIVED A VOICEMAIL FROM RUDY GIULIANI, THE PRESIDENT'S LAWYER, AND HERE IS PART OF WHAT HE HAD TO SAY: >> I THINK THEY BELIEVE THEY CAN PICK OFF ELECTION OFFICIALS, REPUBLICANS WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR FUTURE POLITICAL PROSPECTS PROSPECTS, AND WORK WITH THESE FOLKS TO OVERTURN AN ELECTION, WHICH IS DESPICABLE.

>> AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THIS COUNTRY IF MOVING FORWARD NOBODY HAS FAITH IN OUR ELECTION?

>> THAT'S THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THIS COUNTRY.

WHEN THAT HAPPENS.

>> Braude: A.C., AGAIN, THAT WAS A REPUBLICAN SUPERVISOR FROM MARICOPA COUNTY.

THE WAY THEY'RE PREPARING FOR 2024 IS BY TRYING TO KNOCK OFF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN THE INTEGRITY OF THE BALLOT, ELECTION OFFICIALS, SECRETARIES OF STATE, ETC., AND REPLACING THEM WITH THE KINDS OF PEOPLE YOU INTERVIEWED WHO BUY INTO THE BIG LIE, CORRECT?

>> THE MID-TERMS ARE GOING TO BE FASCINATING BECAUSE THERE IS A WHOLE SLATE OF BIG-LIE CANDIDATES RUNNING IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARIES.

THEY'RE ALL GENERALLY ENDORSED BY TRUMP.

AND WE'RE GOING TO SEE IF THAT WING OF THE PARTY PREVAILS, OR IF THE SORT OF MORE FACT-BASED WING OF THE PARTY ENDS UP COMING OUT ON TOP.

>> Braude: AND JUXTAPOSE ON THAT BEFORE WE GO, SAMUEL, WE HAVE DONALD TRUMP GIVING SPEECH AFTER SPEECH, DROPPING LITTLE TIDBIT HINTS THAT HE WOULD BE ATOP THE REPUBLICAN TICKET IN 2024.

SO YOU REPLACE LEGITIMATE OFFICIALS WITH THOSE WHO BUY INTO THE BIG LIE, AND YOU PUT ATOP THE TICKET THE MAN WHO HAS DONE MORE TO ADVANCE THE BIG LIE RELENTLESSLY THAN ANYBODY ELSE.

THAT IS THE PLANNED SCENARIO, CORRECT?

>> THE -- WHAT IS CLEAR IS THAT DONALD TRUMP'S SAVE AMERICA PACK IS BIGGER THAN THE REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC PARTIES COMBINED ARE AT THIS POINT, GOING INTO 2024.

TRUMP HAS BEEN STRATEGICALLY ENDORSING IN MANY RACES WHAT PRESIDENT'S PREVIOUSLY DID NOT FOCUS ON, THE SECRETARY OF STATE, STATE LEGISLATURE, SOMETIMES STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL, AND OFFICES THAT WILL BE IMPORTANT IF THE 2024 ELECTION IS CONTESTED.

>> Braude: A.C. THOMPSON AND SAMUEL BLACK, A REALLY IMPORTANT PIECE OF WORK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org