>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": SUFFOLK COUNTY D.A.

RACHAEL ROLLINS JOINS ME FOR HER FIRST INTERVIEW SINCE SHE WAS CLEARED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IN AN INVESTIGATION INTO A WOMAN'S ROAD RAGE ACCUSATIONS AGAINST HER.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE REPORTS CLAIMING ROLLINS IS ON THE SHORT LIST FOR U.S. ATTORNEY, THE WORK HER OFFICE IS DOING TO REVIEW QUESTIONABLE OLD CASES, INCLUDING THE LATEST ON SEAN ELLIS.

PLUS, THE GEORGETOWN LAW PROFESSOR WHO WANTED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT HOW D.C. POLICE OPERATE, SO SHE BECAME A COP.

SHE CHRONICLES WHAT SHE LEARNED OVER HER FOUR YEARS ON THE FORCE IN THE NEW BOOK, "TANGLED UP IN BLUE."

>>> AFTER MONTHS OF INCREASING PRESSURE, GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER ANNOUNCED TODAY THAT TEACHERS, SCHOOL STAFF, AND OTHER CHILD CARE WORKERS WILL BE ABLE TO START SIGNING UP FOR COVID VACCINE APPOINTMENTS AS OF NEXT WEEK.

THE ANNOUNCEMENT COMES A DAY AFTER THE PRESIDENT CALLED ON ALL STATES TO PRIORITIZE VACCINATING EDUCATORS.

BUT BAKER DID TRY TO LOWER EXPECTATIONS TODAY ABOUT JUST HOW MANY OF THE 400,000 TEACHERS AND STAFF IN MASSACHUSETTS WILL ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO GET THEIR SHOTS IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS, GIVEN THE OTHER GROUPS THAT ARE ALREADY ELIGIBLE AND WAITING AND THE LIMITED NUMBER OF DOSES THE STATE HAS BEEN GETTING.

>> WE'RE NOT GETTING NEW DOSES.

I CAN'T MAKE THAT POINT CLEAR ENOUGH.

WE DO WANT TO SEE EDUCATORS GET VACCINATED.

WE'RE GOING TO MOVE THEM UP AHEAD OF ALL THE OTHER GROUPS THAT ARE PART OF THE NEXT PHASE, BUT I DON'T SEE HOW WE CAN CHOOSE TO TAKE VACCINES AWAY FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE OVER THE AGE OF 65 AND SIGNIFICANTLY AT RISK OF HOSPITALIZATION AND DEATH FROM COVID OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE TWO CO-MORBIDITIES.

IF THE FEDS DRAMATICALLY INCREASE SUPPLY TO HELP STATES DELIVER ON THIS DIRECTIVE FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, THAT WOULD BE TERRIFIC.

>> Braude: BIDEN ALSO SAID YESTERDAY THAT HIS ADMINISTRATION EXPECTS THE U.S. WILL HAVE ENOUGH VACCINE FOR EVERY ADULT IN THE COUNTRY BY THE END OF MAY.

BUT GOVERNOR BAKER SAID HE DOESN'T EXPECT TO START SEEING A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE UNTIL THE END OF THIS MONTH.

NEXT UP, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT MY NEXT GUEST BEING IN THE RUNNING FOR A NEW JOB, U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MASSACHUSETTS UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.

BUT FOR NOW, SUFFOLK D.A.

RACHAEL ROLLINS HAS BEEN KEEPING PRETTY BUSY WITH HER CURRENT JOB.

JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT BOTH IS THE D.A.

HERSELF, RACHAEL ROLLINS.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> YOU AS WELL.

>> Braude: IS THIS YOUR BIRTHDAY, I'M TOLD, IS THAT TRUE?

>> 50 YEARS OLD TODAY, JIM, YES.

MARCH 3rd.

I'M LIVING THE DREAM RIGHT NOW.

SO THIS IS GOOD.

>> Braude: HAPPY BIRTHDAY.

LET'S TALK ABOUT YOU BEFORE WE TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

REPORTS THAT WE'VE ALL SEEN YOU'RE ONE OF THE THREE FINALISTS FOR THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S JOB.

IS THAT TRUE?

>> THAT IS WHAT I'M TOLD AND I'M DEEPLY HUMBLED BY THAT.

>> Braude: I MENTIONED AT THE TOP OF THE SHOW THAT THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL HAD CLEARED YOU ON THOSE CHARGES FILED BY A WOMAN FROM THE SOUTH BAY MALL WHO SUGGESTED YOU WERE DOING A VARIETY OF THINGS, ROAD RAGEY KIND OF THINGS, BUT WHAT HAPPENED LATER WHEN THE CHANNEL 25 TEAM WENT O YOUR HOUSE, YOU THREATENED TO HAVE THEM ARRESTED, FILING A POLICE REPORT.

THEY WERE JUST DOING THEIR JOB.

DO YOU HAVE ANY REGRETS ABOUT THAT?

>> I'M VERY HAPPY THAT THE BOSTON POLICE, THE MASS STATE POLICE AND THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL LOOKED AT THIS COMPLAINT AND DISMISSED IT.

THERE WERE NO CRIMINAL VIOLATIONS AT ALL.

I THINK THE INCIDENT TWO WEEKS LATER, AND LESS THAN TWO DAYS AFTER THE INSURRECTION AT THE CAPITOL, WHEN AN UNMARKED CAME TO MY HOME WAS VERY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I THINK IS APPROPRIATE FOR AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, OR A PUBLIC OFFICIAL, WHICH IS WHEN A CONSTITUENT IS UNHAPPY, THEY CAN LODGE A COMPLAINT.

I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT ELECTED AND PUBLIC OFFICIALS SHOULD HAVE SOME PRIVACY.

AND I -- YOU KNOW, I WOULD DEFY YOU TO FIND SOMEBODY WHO HAS BEEN MORE ACCESSIBLE TO THE MEDIA, AND MORE OPEN TO HAVE TOUGH CONVERSATIONS, BUT I FEEL LIKE AN UNMARKED CAR, AN UNKNOWN MAN IN FRONT OF MY HOME, IT WAS VERY STARTING.

AND I REACTED AS A MOTHER, AND NOT AS A DISTRICT ATTORNEY, AND THAT'S WHAT I AM.

>> Braude: OKAY.

LET'S TALK ABOUT -- SPEAKING OF POLICE, DENNIS WHITE, COMMISSIONER FOR A DAY -- ACTUALLY, FOR TWO DAYS -- BEFORE HE WAS PUT ON LEAVE BY MARTY WALSH BASED ON A PROBE INTO A 1999, ALLEGATION OF DOMESTIC ABUSE.

YOU'RE OB THE BOARD OF A BLACK ENFORCEMENT GROUP THAT SAID HE SHOULD BE REINSTATED BECAUSE THIS INVESTIGATION IS BROKE AND HAS DRAGGED ON SO LONG.

WHY SHOULDN'T THE LOOK INTO THIS GO TO ITS NATURAL CONCLUSION AND WAIT FOR THAT, JUST AS WE DO WITH THINGS OUT OF YOUR OFFICE?

>> FIRST AND FOREMOST, JIM, I VEHEMENTLY OPPOSE ANY ALLEGATIONS OR ANY DOMESTIC VIOLENCE BEHAVIOR.

AS THE CHIEF OFFICER OF SUFFOLK, I I DO NOT CONDONE THAT.

BUT A RETRAINING ORDER IS NOT A CRIMINAL ACTION.

IT IS A CIVIL ACTION.

IF YOU VIOLATE THE RESTRAINING ORDER, THAT'S WHEN THE CRIME HAPPENS.

THIS OCCURRED IN 1992, AND SINCE THAT TIME, THIS MAN, COMMISSIONER WHITE, HAS ASCENDED TO THE THIRD HIGHEST RANKING POLITICIAN INSIDE OF BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT.

HE WAS THE CHIEF-OF-STAFF FOR THE COMMISSIONER.

AND NOBODY HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH THIS AT ALL UNTIL THEN.

I JUST THINK THIS WAS SLOPPY, AND I THINK IT WAS NOT TRANSPARENT, AND I THINK THE MAYOR, MAYOR WALSH, HAS SAID AS MUCH.

WHAT I DON'T WANT TO HAPPEN IS SYSTEMIC FAILURES TO FALL AT THE FEET OF THIS COMMISSIONER.

I THINK THE INVESTIGATION NEEDS TO BE EXPEDITED, AND I THINK THE BOSTON POLICE HAVE NOT DONE A GREAT JOB OF BEING TRANSPARENT.

AND SO MEMBERS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT, THE COMMUNITY, WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON.

AND MANY PEOPLE ARE NOT HAPPY BECAUSE WE FEEL AS IF WE'VE BEEN LEFT OUT, AND WE'RE LEARNING WITH EVERYONE ELSE.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF WEIGHTS, LET'S TALK ABOUT SEAN ELLIS FOR A MINUTE, IF WE CAN.

I ASSUME MOST PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR, BUT POLICE DETECTIVE JOHN MULLIGAN WAS KILLED, AND SEAN ELLIS WAS QUICKLY TRIED, AND TWO TRIALS ENDED IN HUNG JURIES.

AND LATER, THREE BOSTON COPS, POLICE DETECTIVES WERE CAUGHT UP IN A CASE.

THE FOURTH TRIAL ORDERED, BUT IN 2018, PROSECUTORS DROPPED THE CHARGES RIGHT BEFORE YOU TOOK OVER, BUT STILL CONTENDED HE WAS GUILTY.

AND ALL OF THIS IS CHRONICLED IN TRIAL FOUR ON NETFLIX.

I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU WHAT HIS LAYER SAID ON NOVEMBER 16th OF LAST YEAR.

>> RIGHT NOW WE'RE IN NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TO TRY TO PICK UP WHERE WE LEFT OFF IN TERMS OF TALKING ABOUT THIS CASE.

I EXPECT WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT TRYING TO GET RID OF SEAN ELLIS' GUN CONVICTION BECAUSE HE DIDN'T DO IT AND HE SHOULDN'T AE A CONVICTED FELON BECAUSE OF THIS CASE.

>> Braude: YOU WERE WITH ME TWO WEEKS AFTER THAT, AND YOU SAID MUCH THE SAME THING.

A MOTION FOR A FEW TRIAL BY HIS ATTORNEY WAS FILED.

IT IS NOW ALMOST THREE MONTHS LATER AND NOTHING.

WHAT IS GOING ON?

>> WELL, WE HAVE TO RESPOND TO HIS LAWYER'S PLEADING.

AND TRIAL FOUR IS NOT EVIDENCE.

THEY DID A WONDERFUL JOB AT NETFLIX PUTTING THIS TOGETHER, BUT WE HAD TO REVIEW THE 39 BOXES OF DOCUMENTS AND EVIDENCE WITH RESPECT TO ALL THREE OF THOSE TRIALS, WITH RESPECT TO EVERY APPEAL.

WITH RESPECT TO EVERY, YOU KNOW, MATTER BEFORE THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, INTERNAL AFFAIRS, AND ANTI-CORRUPTION FILES AT THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THIS IS GOING TO BE AN INFORMED DECISION THAT I MAKE.

AND IT IS NOT INFORMED EXCLUSIVELY BY WATCHING SOMETHING ON NETFLIX.

IT TAKES TIME FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, JIM.

AND, TECHNICALLY, THERE IS LEGISLATION PENDING RIGHT NOW SO THAT PROSECUTORS ON THEIR OWN CAN UNDO WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS, BUT RIGHT NOW ROSEMARY, SEAN'S EXCELLENT LAWYER, HAD TO FILE A FEW MOTION FOR A NEW TRIAL.

AND WE'LL BE RESPONDING ON MARCH 15th.

AND I HAVE LISTENED TO THE MULLIGAN FAMILY AND HAD A MEETING WITH THEM MYSELF, AND MY OFFICE HAS MET WITH THEM MULTIPLE TIMES.

SO WE'RE HEARING FROM BOTH SIDES.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE TREATING THIS CASE DIFFERENTLY THAN OTHER ONES.

>> Braude: ARE YOU AMONG THOSE WHO BELIEVE THAT SEAN ELLIS IS NOT GUILTY OF THE MURDER?

>> I AM NOT AMONG ANYONE.

I AM THE CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER THAT HAS TO MAKE THAT DECISION.

I WILL TELL YOU THAT ON MARCH 15th, OUR PLEADINGS AND RESPONSE IS DUE, AND WE WILL LET EVERYONE -- >> Braude: WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE THAT DECISION.

THE CASE -- YOUR PREDECESSORS CHOSE NOT TO PROSECUTE HIM AGAIN.

THAT IS NOT BEFORE YOU.

I'M ASKING ON THE MATTER NOT BEFORE YOU, WHERE YOUR PREDECESSORS SAID THEY THOUGHT HE WAS GUILTY, AS DID COMMISSIONER GROSS.

DO YOU AGREE WITH HIM?

OF THE MURDER, NOT THE WEAPONS POSSESSION.

>> YEAH, I BELIEVE -- I'M NOT JUST SKIRTING YOUR ANSWERS.

WHAT I BELIEVE IS HAD I BEEN THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY, THAT PRESS CONFERENCE WOULD HAVE BEEN HANDLED VERY DIFFERENTLY.

I BELIEVE IT WAS IN POOR FORM, QUITE FRANKLY.

IF WE CANNOT PROVE A CASE, AND IF A COURT HAS OVERTURNED OUR VERDICT, YOU GO BACK TO THE DAY BEFORE YOU WERE ABOUT TO BE IMPANELING A JURY.

AND YOU ARE INDICTED, BUT YOU HAVE NOT BEEN FOUND GUILTY YET OF THAT CRIME.

I DON'T THINK YOU CAN BE SPEAKING OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF YOUR MOUTH.

IF WE CAN'T PROVE YOUR GUILT AND A COURT HAS SAID CONSTITUTIONAL VIOLATIONS HAPPENED, NOT JUST WITH RESPECT TO POLICE MISCONDUCT, BUT POTENTIAL BRADY VIOLATIONS BY THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE, CORRUPTION THE LIKES OF WHICH WE HAVE NOT SEEN, WITH RESPECT TO MULLIGAN.

I THINK YOU HAVE TO SAY THIS PERSON IS NOT GUILTY OF THAT CRIME BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT PROVEN IT.

AND WE SAID OUT LOUD WE CANNOT PROVE IT.

THAT IS FACTUALLY WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE TRUE.

THAT IS NOT MY OPINION ABOUT SEAN OR NOT.

WHAT I'M EXPLAINING TO YOU IS PROCEDURALLY WHERE YOU GO BACK TO WHEN A MOTION FOR A NEW TRIAL IS GRANTED.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF OLD CASES, WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT, I'M DEEPLY INTERESTED IN YOUR INTEGRITY REVIEW BOARD.

IN A MINUTE OR SO, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, CAN YOU UPDATE US ON WHAT YOU'VE BEEN LOOKING AT AND WHAT THE OUTCOMES HAVE BEEN?

>> YES.

VERY, VERY PROUD FOR PILLARS.

WE HAVE CONVICTION INTEGRITY.

MOST D.A.

's OFFICES HAVE IT.

WE HAVE SENTENCING INTEGRITY, WHERE TWO PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED, AND ONE IS THE ONE WHO TAKES THE STEP AND COMMITS THE MURDER.

THE OTHER ONE IS LESS CULPABLE, BUT CULPABLE IN FACT.

AND THEY GET DISPERATE RESPONSES.

WE HAVE A REAL-TIME REVIEW OF SEMINAL EVENTS SO WE WAIT 30 YEARS TO SEE THAT WE GOT IT WRONG.

I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT IMMEDIATELY.

AND OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTOMATIC DISCOVERY BASE, WHICH IS OUR BRADY LIST.

WE HAVE UNDONE OVER 200 YEARS OF WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS WITH THE HELP AND THE PERSISTENCE, QUITE FRANKLY, OF OUR EXCEPTIONAL CRIMINAL DEFENSE BAR.

MACDEL, THE NEW ENGLAND INNOCENCE PROJECT, THE BOSTON COLLEGE INNOCENCE PROJECT.

WE HAVE SOME REALLY STRONG LEADERS IN MASSACHUSETTS AND NEW ENGLAND, AND THEY ARE PUSHING US TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GOT IT RIGHT.

AND WE WILL ALWAYS LOOK BACK TO SEE WHETHER WE DID.

SO I'M VERY PROUD OF THAT WORK.

>> Braude: I ONLY HAVE 30 SECOND LEFT.

WHEN THE TWO CONSTRUCTION WORKERS WERE KILLED IN THE FINANCIAL DISTRICT LAST WEEK, YOU SAID YOU WEREN'T SURE IF A CRIME HAD BEEN COMMITTED.

ARE YOU CONVINCED NOW AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A CRIME?

>> WELL, WE ABSOLUTELY KNOW THAT THEY HAVE FAILED -- THAT COMPANY HAS FAILED WITH RESPECT TO MADDOX HIGGIN'S AFFIDAVIT.

MADDOX AND HIGGINS WERE THE TWO MEN WHO DIED, AND WE FOUND KEVIN AUDO GUILTY OF MANSLAUGHTER.

WE HAVE THE SAME EXCELLENT DISTRICT ATTORNEY HANDLING THIS CASE.

WE NEED TO SEE WHETHER THERE ARE GOING TO BE CHARGES WITH RESPECT TO THEIR DEATHS, EITHER MANSLAUGHTER OR ABOVE.

BUT WE ARE WORKING HAND-IN-HAND WITH OSHA ON THAT.

THIS IS ON MY DESK.

I'M GETTING UP TO THE UP TO THE MINUTE REPORTS ON THAT.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

>> Braude: THANK YOU.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

I HOPE THE REST OF YOUR BIRTHDAY IS AS MUCH FUN AS THE LAST 10 MINUTES.

>> THANK YOU, AND BE WELL.

>> Braude: ROSA BROOKS HAS SPENT MUCH OF HER CAREER EXAMINING THE INTERSECTION OF LAW AND VIOLENCE IN THIS COUNTRY AS A GEORGETOWN LAW PROFESSOR, A NEWSPAPER COLUMNIST, IN THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE AND THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE.

BUT IN 2016, SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED SOME FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE.

SO ON TOP OF HER FULL-TIME, TENURED PROFESSORSHIP, BROOKS SIGNED UP TO BE A VOLUNTEER RESERVE POLICE OFFICER IN THE WASHINGTON, D.C. METRO POLICE DEPARTMENT.

SHE WENT THROUGH THE TRAINING, THEN WORKED 24 HOURS A MONTH ALONGSIDE FULL-TIME OFFICERS FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS, WEARING THE SAME UNIFORM, CARRYING THE SAME BADGE AND GUN, AND PATROLLING THE SAME STREETS.

SHE CHRONICLES WHAT SHE LEARNED IN HER NEW BOOK, "TANGLE UP IN BLUE: POLICING THE AMERICAN CITY."

ROSA BROOKS JOINS ME NOW.

>> Braude: ROSA, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANKS, JIM.

GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: WHY DID A 40 SOMETHING LAW PROFESSOR WANT TO BE A COP?

>> MY FAMILY THOUGHT I WAS NUTS.

MID-LIFE CRISIS, ETC.

I'VE ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LAW AND VIOLENCE.

AND I'VE STUDIED THAT IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLACES.

AND AMERICAN POLICING IS CERTAINLY VIOLENT COMPARED TO OTHER DEMOCRACIES.

IT DOES SEEM LIKE SUCH A FASCINATING OPPORTUNITY TO GET INSIDE A CULTURE THAT IS SO OFTEN CLOSED AND OPAQUE TO THOSE US ON THE OUTSIDE AND LEARN MORE ABOUT IT.

I THINK IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE SOMETHING, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IT FIRST.

>> Braude: WELL, YOU BRING US ON TO THE STREETS OF D.C., BUT FIRST YOU BRING US INTO THE TRAINING ROOMS FOR NEW COPS.

CAN YOU SHARE WITH US WHAT IS DRUMMED INTO THE HEADS OF THE TRAINEES, AND WHAT IS RARELY, IF EVER, MENTIONED, EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE THING THAT ALMOST ALL OF AMERICA IS TALKING ABOUT.

>> YEAH.

YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME MEMORIZING THINGS, LIKE THE NINE PROPERTY FORMS AND THE RIGHT COLOR OF INK TO FILL THEM OUT IN.

AND YOU SPEND A LOT OF TIME OF VEHICULAR OFFENSES AND SO SO FORTH.

I THOUGHT THAT THE IMPLICIT MESSAGE OF THE POLICE ACADEMY IS ONE ABOUT RISK.

ANYONE CAN KILL YOU AT ANY TIME.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ROUTINE CALL.

YOU HAVE TO CONSTANTLY BE PREPARED FOR A LETHAL THREAT TO COME OUT OF NOWHERE.

WATCH PEOPLE'S HANDS, NOT THEIR EYES.

THEIR EYES CAN'T KILL YOU, THEIR HANDS WILL.

THAT WAS DRUMMED IN IN ALL SORTS OF WAYS.

WHAT WASN'T -- AND THAT HIS ALL KINDS OF IMPLICATIONS FOR HOW POLICE OFFICERS INTERACT WITH PEOPLE.

BUT WHAT WASN'T INCLUDED IN THE CURRICULUM WAS, YEAH, THE CONVERSATIONS THE REST OF THE COUNTRY WAS HAVING ABOUT RACE AND POLICING AND POLICING AND THE USE OF FORCE.

WHAT SHOULD POLICE BE DOING?

WHAT IS GOOD POLICING, AND DO WE KNOW IT WHEN WE SEE IT?

HOW DO WE MEASURE IT?

ALL OF THOSE WERE DRUMMED OUT BY THE MEMORIZING OF THE PROPERTY FORMS.

>> Braude: AND SPEAKING OF RACISM, YOU WRITE THAT BOTH WHITE AND BLACK COPS REFER TO SOME BLACK PEOPLE IN THE CITY THEIR PATROLLING AS "F"-ING ANIMALS.

WHAT ARE WE TO TAKE AWAY FROM THAT?

>> ONE TAKE-AWAY IS WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT CLASS AS WELL AS RACE WHEN WE THINK ABOUT BIAS.

ONE IS WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT CLASS AS WELL AS RACE.

THERE ARE PERCEPTIONS OF PEOPLE OF LOWER CLASS ARE NO GOOD, RATHER THAN A COMMENT ABOUT RACE.

BUT THE OTHER THING, I THINK, AND MANY CRITICS IN POLICING HAVE POINTED THIS OUT, IS THAT THE RACISM IS BAKED SO DEEPLY INTO THE SYSTEM, IN MANY WAYS IT CAN BE INVISIBLE.

SO BY THE TIME A COP GETS INTO A SITUATION, ALL OF THE CHOICES ARE BAD ONES.

THE SITUATION COULDN'T AND WOULDN'T HAVE COME ABOUT HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE LEGACY OF CENTURIES OF OVERT DISCRIMINATION, BUT THAT TRANSLATES INTO THINGS LIKE DISCRIMINATORY ZONING RULES, DISCRIMINATORY PLACEMENT OF PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, DISCRIMINATORY DIVISION OF SERVICES IN A VARIETY OF WAYS, WHICH, IN TURN, CAN MAKE IT HARD FOR SOME COMMUNITIES TO GET OUT OF A CYCLE OF POVERTY AND CRIME.

BUT THOSE THINGS ARE OFTEN INVISIBLE TO OFFICERS, AND WHAT THEY SAY IS THE CRIME.

WHAT THEY SEE IS THE DYSFUNCTION.

THEY DON'T SEE THE POLICY DECISIONS THAT CREATED THAT CRIME AND DYSFUNCTION AND MADE IT SO HARD TO CHANGE.

>> Braude: DESPITE THE DIFFERENT BACKGROUND YOU BROUGHT TO THIS, DID YOU FALL PREY TO THAT AT ANY TIME, DESPITE YOUR BEST INTENTIONS?

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK SO BECAUSE I'VE WORKED, DURING THE COURSE OF MY CAREER, IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLACES, FROM THE BALKINS TO SUBSAHARAN AFRICA TO IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, AND HAVE SEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE DO A LOT OF BAD THINGS.

AND, FRANKLY, THE RESIDENTS OF WASHINGTON, D.C.

SEEMED A LOT LESS SCARY THAN A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE I'VE ENCOUNTERED IN MY LIFE.

WHEN YOU TALK TO PEOPLE, EVERYBODY HAS GOT A STORY.

I TRULY BELIEVE NOT A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE -- SOME, MAYBE -- BUT MOST PEOPLE DON'T WAKE UP IN THE MORNING SAYING I WANT TO CAUSE PAIN AND SUFFERING FOR SOMEBODY TODAY.

AND THAT'S TRUE WHETHER THEY ARE COPS OR SOMEBODY WHO ENDS UP GOING OUT AND SHOOTING SOMEBODY AND KILLING THEM.

EVERYBODY HAS GOT THEIR STORY.

THAT DOESN'T EXCUSE THE ABUSE OR VIOLENT CRIME.

BUT I THINK IF WE LET OURSELVES THINK THAT DEHUMANIZING LANGUAGE, WHETHER IT IS THESE PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY ARE ANIMALS, OR WHETHER IT IT IS THE PLACE ARE RACIST, ON EITHER SIDE, IF WE START DEHUMANIZING PEOPLE, NUMBER ONE, WE'RE NOT LIKELY TO CHANGE THEM.

BUT NUMBER TWO, IT BLINDS US TO THE COMPLEXITY THAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND IF WE DO WANT THE SAME THING.

>> Braude: I'M SURE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS FALL INTO THAT CONGRESS.

CATEGORY.

[LAUGHTER] >> Braude: WHEN PIE I SPOKE WITH YOU THE OTHER DAY, THE STORY THAT STAYED WITH ME, AND I DON'T THINK WILL EVER LEAVE ME, FOR SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T SEE THINGS IN SHADES OF GRAY, LIKE YOU DO BRILLIANTLY, TELL THE STORY OF THE SHOPLIFTER YOU AND YOUR PARTNER CONFRONTED.

>> OH, GOSH, THIS IS ONE OF MY MOST PAINFUL MEMORIES.

WE WERE PATROLLING, WE WERE IN OUR CAR IN A STRIP MALL PARKING LOT, AND WE WERE GOING TO GO OFF SHIFT VERY SHORTLY, AND WE SAW THAT THERE WAS SOME KIND OF VIOLENT SCUFFLE TAKING PLACE IN THE PARKING LOT BETWEEN A SECURITY GUARD AND SOMEONE ELSE.

WE JUMPED OUT OF THE POLICE CAR AND RACED OVER.

AS SOON AS WE GOT OVER THERE, THE PERSON STRUGGLING STOPPED STRUGGLING.

IT TURNED OUT IT WAS A VERY TINY WOMAN AND SHE HAD SHOPLIFTED FROM THE SUPERMARKET IN THE MALL.

AND SHE HAD A SUITCASE CONTAINING THE ITEMS SHE HAD STOLEN.

WE LOOKED INSIDE, IT WAS A BOX OF LAUNDRY DETERGENT AND CHICKEN THIGHS.

SHE SAID, I'M SORRY, I'M SORRY, BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY FOOD.

I LOOKED AT MY PARTNER AND WE LOOKED AT THE SECURITY GUARD, AND WE ALL ESSENTIALLY SAID, SHE DOES NOT NEED TO BE ARRESTED FOR THIS.

THIS SAD WOMAN IS STEALING FOOD.

LET'S SEE IF WE CAN GET THROUGH THIS WITHOUT AN ARREST.

BUT THEN MY PARTNER RAN A WARRANT CHECK, WHICH IS ROUTINE PROCEDURE IF YOU'RE ENCOUNTERING SOMEBODY IN A SITUATION, AND HE FOUND THAT HE HAD AN OUTSTANDING WARRANT.

IT WAS ACTUALLY A WARRANT FOR FAILURE TO APPEAR, WHICH PRETTY MUCH MEANS SHE PROBABLY HAD SOME SIMILARLY MINOR OFFENSE AND HAD NOT SHOWN UP AT A COURT HEARING SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO GO GO TO.

BUT IT MEANT WE HAD TO ARREST HER.

WE COULDN'T JUST SAY DON'T DO IT ANYMORE.

HERE IS 20 BUCKS AND HERE IS THE PHONE NUMBER FOR A FOOD BANK.

AND IT WAS ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS WHEN I THOUGHT, WHY AM I DOING THIS?

WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T.

THE INJUSTICE, THE SOCIO-ECONOMIC CRUELTY IS SO BAKED INTO THE SYSTEM, AND ARRESTING THIS WOMAN IS NOT GOING TO MAKE ANYBODY'S LIFE BETTER.

THE SECURITY GUARDS AT THE STORE DID NOT WANT TO DO IT, AND WE ALL FELT A LITTLE TRAPPED.

AND SHE IS THE ONE WHO WENT TO JAIL.

>> Braude: ROSA, I ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF SECONDS LEFT.

TELL US ABOUT THE POLICE FOR TOMORROW, PLEASE.

>> THE FELLOWSHIP PROGRAM AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY, BETWEEN GEORGETOWN AND THE METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT, IT TAKES YOUNG POLICE OFFICERS AND WE BRING THEM OVER TO GEORGETOWN AND WE HAVE THESE REALLY INTENSE WORKSHOPS ON WHAT I THINK ARE THE HARD ISSUES IN POLICING, RACE AND POLICING, POLICING AND VIOLENCE, AND WHAT ARE POLICE FOR?

AND IT IS A REALLY FANTASTIC PROGRAM.

WE GET THESE AMAZING OFFICERS WHO WANT TO BE PART OF TRANSFORMING POLICING FROM WITHIN.

IT IS EXCITING TO SEE THAT.

THAT'S WHAT MAKES ME OPTIMISTIC THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET THE NEXT GENERATION OF POLICE LEADERS WHO MAYBE THINK MUCH MORE CREATIVELY AND VERY DIFFERENTLY ABOUT POLICING THAN THE GENERATIONS THAT HAVE GONE BEFORE THEM.

>> Braude: I'D LIKE TO THINK I'M THINKING MORE CREATIVELY AS A RESULT OF YOUR BOOK.

THANKS A LOT, ROSA.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: THE BOOK, AGAIN, IS: "TANGLED UP IN BLUE: POLICING THE AMERICAN CITY."

AND, FINALLY TONIGHT, A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT YOU ALL HAVE SENT IN DURING THESE PANDEMIC TIMES.

ROY SHOWED US THIS SWEET PICTURE OF HIS CATS, SALLY AND SCARLET, HAPPILY SLEEPING.

AND KAREN SAID THE BEST FORM OF PANDEMIC RELIEF SHE EXPERIENCES IS WHEN HER 2-YEAR-OLD, CAM, ENTERTAINS HIS BROTHER, JORDAN.

LOVE THAT, KAREN.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR SHARING.

IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU'D LIKE TO SEND IN, PLEASE DO SO WITH THE ADDRESSES ON YOUR SCREEN.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

I'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org