Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org >> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES USED THEIR BIG ELECTION LIE TO TRY AND OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION.

NOW, THEY'RE USING IT TO GET A LEG UP IN THE NEXT ONE WITH LAWS THAT WOULD MAKE IT HARDER FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR, IN PARTICULAR, TO VOTE.

I'M JOINED BY CO-FOUNDER OF THE BLACK VOTERS MATTER FUND, LATOSHA BROWN, AND THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE LAWYERS' COMMITTEE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS UNDER LAW, DAMON HEWITT, WHOSE ORGANIZATIONS ARE SUING TO OVERTURN SUCH A LAW IN GEORGIA.

THEN, LATER, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKERS KEN BURNS AND LYNN NOVICK JOIN ME ON THEIR NEW PBS DOCUSERIES ABOUT THE TURBULENT LIFE OF ONE OF AMERICA'S GREATEST AND MOST NOTORIOUS WRITERS, ERNEST HEMINGWAY.

♪ ♪ ♪ >> BRAUDE: ON JANUARY 6, WE WATCHED HORDES OF DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTERS STORM THE CAPITOL, MANY WHO CAME PREPARED FOR BATTLE WITH WEAPONS AND ZIP-TIE HANDCUFFS AND CHANTING THINGS LIKE "HANG MIKE PENCE."

WE SAW VIDEO OF RIOTERS CRUSHING POLICE OFFICERS, DRAGGING THEM DOWN THE CAPITOL STEPS AND BEATING THEM WITH A FLAG.

ALL OF IT DONE IN TRUMP'S NAME SHORTLY AFTER HE TOLD THEM TO "FIGHT LIKE HELL."

BUT NOW, AS HE CONTEMPLATES ANOTHER WHITE HOUSE BID IN 2024, THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS TRYING TO REWRITE THAT HISTORY.

>> IT WAS ZERO THREAT, RIGHT FROM THE START.

IT WAS ZERO THREAT.

LOOK, THEY WENT IN-- THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT.

SOME OF THEM WENT IN, AND THEY'RE-- THEY'RE HUGGING AND KISSING THE POLICE AND THE GUARDS, YOU KNOW.

THEY HAD-- THEY HAD GREAT RELATIONSHIPS.

>> BRAUDE: LIKE WITH THE LATE CAPITOL OFFICER BRIAN SICKNICK, YOU MEAN, MR. PRESIDENT?

THIS IS JUST THE LATEST IN A WEB OF LIES FROM TRUMP, ALL BUILT AROUND ONE BIG ONE: THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM HIM, AND THAT MANY OF THE BALLOTS BEHIND JOE BIDEN'S WIN WERE SOMEHOW ILLEGITIMATE.

AND NOW, REPUBLICAN ALLIES OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT ARE USING THAT LIE TO TRY AND PASS HUNDREDS OF ELECTION LAW CHANGES IN STATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT WOULD MAKE IT HARDER FOR LOW INCOME AND PEOPLE OF COLOR TO VOTE.

ONE SUCH BILL WAS JUST SIGNED INTO LAW IN GEORGIA WHERE A SURGE IN BLACK VOTERS FLIPPED THE STATE BLUE, PUTTING DEMOCRATS IN CONTROL OF THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE SENATE.

IT'S CALLED SB202 AND, AMONG OTHER THINGS, IT GIVES STATE OFFICIALS THE POWER TO OVERRULE COUNTY ELECTION BOARDS AND POTENTIALLY DISQUALIFY VOTERS.

IT ALSO REQUIRES I.D.

FOR ABSENTEE BALLOTS, LIMITS THE PLACEMENT OF BALLOT DROP BOXES, AND, IN A STATE WHERE LINES OUTSIDE OF POLLING PLACES ALREADY OFTEN STRETCH ON FOR BLOCKS IN LARGELY NON-WHITE AREAS, IT MAKES IT A CRIME TO BRING FOOD AND WATER TO VOTERS WAITING IN LINE.

IN RESPONSE TO CRITICISM, GEORGIA GOVERNOR BRIAN KEMP ARGUED THE CHANGES ARE NECESSARY TO KEEP THE STATE'S ELECTIONS SECURE.

>> MY COMMITMENT TO THE PEOPLE OF THIS STATE IS SIMPLE: I WILL NOT BACK DOWN.

THE TRUTH IS, INSURING THE INTEGRITY OF THE BALLOT BOX IS NOT PARTISAN; IT'S ABOUT PROTECTING THE VERY FOUNDATION OF WHO WE ARE AS GEORGIANS AND AMERICANS.

>> BRAUDE: BUT CRITICS SAY IT'S NOT ABOUT SECURITY, IT'S ABOUT SUPPRESSION.

AND SHORTLY AFTER THE BILL WAS FILED, VOTING RIGHTS AND ENGAGEMENT GROUPS RISE INC., THE NEW GEORGIA PROJECT, AND THE BLACK VOTERS MATTER FUND FILED A LEGAL CHALLENGE ARGUING THE LAW IS "CLEARLY INTENDED TO AND WILL HAVE THE EFFECT OF MAKING IT HARDER FOR LAWFUL GEORGIA VOTERS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE STATE'S ELECTIONS.

AND IT WILL IMPOSE THESE UNJUSTIFIABLE BURDENS DISPROPORTIONATELY ON THE STATE'S MINORITY, YOUNG, POOR, AND DISABLED CITIZENS."

AND JUST YESTERDAY, ON BEHALF OF ANOTHER GROUP OF ORGANIZATIONS, THE LAWYERS COMMITTEE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS UNDER LAW FILED A SECOND SUIT.

IN IT, THEY ARGUE: "UNABLE TO STEM THE TIDE OF THESE DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES OR CHANGE THE VOTING PATTERNS OF VOTERS OF COLOR, THESE OFFICIALS HAVE RESORTED TO ATTEMPTING TO SUPPRESS THE VOTE OF BLACK VOTERS AND OTHER VOTERS OF COLOR IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THE TENUOUS HOLD THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS IN GEORGIA."

I'M JOINED BY: LATOSHA BROWN, CO-FOUNDER OF THE BLACK VOTERS MATTER FUND; AND THE ACTING PRESIDENT AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE LAWYERS' COMMITTEE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS UNDER LAW, DAMON HEWITT.

LATOSHA GREAT TO SEE YOU.

DA MON, GREAT TO MEET YOU.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: LATOSHA, IF I COULD START WITH YOU, IF THIS LAW HAD BEEN IN EFFECT LAST YEAR BEFORE THE ELECTIONS WOULD WARNOCK AND OSHOFF BE IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE?

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK SO.

THE GOP WOULD HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE OVER THE STAYED BOARD OF ELECTIONS WHICH ESSENTIALLY WAS WHAT TRUMP WANTED.

A STATE LIKE GEORGIA, LET'S BE MINDFUL, GEORGIA WAS A STATE THAT WE SAW VOTER SUPPRESSION IN 2018, WE FAST-FORWARD TO 2020, AND THIS IS VERY STATE THAT THE PRESIDENT CALLED THE SECRETARY OF STATE AND SAID, TO FINE, CAN'T YOU FIND THOUSANDS OF VOTES?

AND OLIKE THIS IS A STATE THAT THE REPUBLICANS HAD CONTROL OF THE SENATE, THE HOUSE, AND THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE WHICH ESSENTIALLY WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE OVERSIGHT OF THE ELECTION, THE REPUBLICANS HAD OVERSIGHT OF THE ELECTION.

AND IT WASN'T AS IF VOTER SUPPRESSION DIDN'T EXIST IN THIS LAST ELECTION CYCLE.

WEE JUST SIMPLY OUT-ORGANIZED THEM IN A WAY WE WERE ABLE TO OVERWHELM.

WE HAD NUMBERS OF PEOPLE THAT CAME OUT AND CAST THEIR VOTES OF CITIZENS ABOUT IN THIS STATE, THAT CAST THEIR VOTES THAT THEY WEREN'T EXPECTING THAT ACTUALLY WE GOT A DIFFERENT OUTCOME.

NOW, THIS IS AN ELECTION THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE IN CHARGE OF NOW THEY'RE SAYING THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS A VOTE THAT LITERALLY THREE TIMES IT WAS COUNTED.

THAT THEY RECOUNTED THREE TIMES AND THERE WAS NO BROAD SPECTRUM OF FRAUD FOUND AT -- WHATSOEVER.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW DA MON, DAMON, I READ PART OF YOUR STATEMENT THAT YOU FILED WHEN YOU FILED THE LITIGATION.

YOU SPEAK AS OF THE LITIGATION THAT LATOSHA'S GROUP IS INVOLVED IN, A DISPROPORTIONATE IMPACT, NEGATIVE IMPACT OBVIOUSLY ON VOTERS OF COLOR.

MAKE THE CASE AS TO WHY THAT IMPACT WILL BE GREATER ON VOTERS OF COLOR THAN, SAY, WHITE VOTERS IN GEORGIA?

>> WELL JIM, WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHERE PEOPLE NEED ACCESS TO MULTIPLE MEANS OF VOTING, WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT ALONG THE LINES ALWAYS ARE, WHEN YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE WHO STAND UP FOR EACH OTHER, AND HELP EACH OTHER OUT, WHEN THEY'RE IN THOSE LONG LINES, ESSENTIALLY WHAT IS HAPPENING IS, THIS IS DESIGNED TO HURT THE FOLKS, COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, WHO WERE FRANK REPLY FINDING WAYS TO MAKE A WAY TO VOTE.

TO HAVE THEIR VOICES HEARD.

MAKE SURE THEIR BALLOTS ARE CAST.

SO IT'S REALLY DESIGNED TO REALLY UNDERCUT ALL THOSE EFFORTS, WHETHER IT BE SOULS TO THE POLLS, WHICH OBVIOUSLY PART OF THE EARLY ITERATIONS OF THE LEGISLATION OR JUST HELPING PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN THESE REALLY LONG, UNSUFFER ANNAL LINES.

THE IDEA IS LIKE LOOK, ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE ARE IN THE LINES BUT IT'S PREDOMINANTLY IN THE BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, POOR COMMUNITIES AS WELL, WHERE YOU SEE THE LACK OF ARE SPHAWRKT IN TERMS OF VOTING APPARATUS.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, LATOSHA YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN SOMETHING IF YOU WILL.

FOLLOWING THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD, MAJOR CORPORATIONS OVER THIS COUNTRY WERE FALLING OVER EACH OTHER TO DEMAND A RACIAL RECKONING, GREATER RACIAL EQUITY IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT COME THIS LAW IN GEORGIA IT SEEMS LIKE THEY HAD MAYBE BODY DOUBLES HAVE REPLACED THEM OR SOMETHING.

PLACES LIKE DELTA, COCA-COLA HAD PLACES -- LET ME READ TO YOU WHAT DPEL TSA SAID.

L DELTA BELIEVED THAT FULL AND EQUAL ACCESS TO VOTING IS A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT FOR ALL CITIZENS.

THE LEGISLATION SIGNED THIS WEEK IMPROVED CONSIDERABLY DURING THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS AND EXPANDS WEEKEND VOTING, CODIFIES SUNDAY VOTING AND PROTECTS A VOTER'S ABILITY TO CAST AN ABSENTEE BALLOT WITHOUT PROVIDING A REASON.

NONETHELESS, WE UNDERSTAND CONCERNS REMAIN OVER OTHER PROVISIONS IN THE LEGISLATION, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE PEOPLE?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

I THINK WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RACIAL EQUITY, WHAT WE SEE IS THAT THOSE WERE EMPTY WORDS, THAT THERE WAS NO REAL COMMITMENT BEHIND THAT.

THIS IS ACTUALLY LOW HANGING FRUIT.

THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT SHOULDN'T BE PARTISAN.

WE'RE ALLOWING THE REPUBLICANS, EXCUSE ME, WE'RE ALLOWING THE REPUBLICANS TO MAKE SOMETHING AS FUNDAMENTAL AS ACCESS TO THE BALLOT TO BECOME A PARTISAN ISSUE.

REGARDLESS WHO IS IN ISSUE MY RIGHT TO VOTE SHOULD BE PROTECTED AND SHOULD BE RESPECTED.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THESE COMPANIES THAT CAME OUT AS YOU SEE IT WITH THESE RACIAL EQUITY STATEMENTS, THERE WAS NO REAL COMMITMENT BEHIND THEM.

A COMPANY LIKE DELTA AIRLINES, IN PARTICULAR, 46% OF THEIR WORKFORCE ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR COMING COMPANY LIKE DELTA THAT IS BASED HERE THAT IS A HOME GROWN COMPANY THAT HAS RECEIVED SUPPORT FROM THE CITY OF ATLANTA, THE COUNTY AND THE STATE AND TO ACTUALLY WHAT I CALL IS A RACIST SPIN, A SPIN WE HAVE SEEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY THAT ACTUALLY WHEN WE ARE SEEING VERY DAMAGING RACIST LEGISLATION THAT IS ACTUALLY REPACKAGED IN THE NAME THAT THIS IS TO HELP BLACK VOTERS, THIS IS TO EXPAND THE VOTE, FOR DELTA TO ALIGN ITSELF WITH THAT SMENCH NOT ONLY APPALLING, IT IS FINISHES WITH THAT MESSAGE IS NOT ONLY APPALLING IT IS DISRESPECTFUL.

>> Braude: COUPLE OF YEARS AGO AFTER THE SO-CALLED BATHROOM BILL, THE LEGISLATURE REPEALED IT.

DAMON GOING BACK TO YOU AND YOUR LITIGATION, THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY WAS IN GREAT PART REMADE BY DONALD TRUMP.

I DON'T HOLD MUCH HOPE OUT THERE.

THE SUPREME COURT WAS REMADE IN THE IMAGE OF DONALD TRUMP.

I FEEL THE SAME WAY THERE.

.AND BIDEN SAID, JOE BIDEN SAID THE OTHER DAY, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE IS GOING TO LOOK AT THIS.

I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT IS THEY CAN DO.

DO YOU HAVE MORE FAITH IN THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY COMING UP WITH A JUST OUTCOME HERE THAN I DO?

>> WELL WHAT I HAVE FAITH IN ARE THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND LIKE LATOSHA AND OTHERS.

I HAVE FAITH IN COMMUNITIES AND LOOK, WE HAVE TO MOVE ON EVERY AVENUE USE ALL THE TOOLS IN OUR TOOL KIT.

IT'S NOT JUST ORGANIZING, IT IS CERTAINLY NOT JUST LITIGATION, ALTHOUGH I THINK CALLING THIS INTENTIONAL DISCRIMINATION, IS IMPORTANT AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE DOING.

THIS IS EXHIBIT A JIM AS THE A WHY WE NEED FEDERAL LEGISLATION, WHY WE NEED FOR THE PEOPLE ACT, THE BASICS OF VOTING APPARATUS AND INFRASTRUCTURE, WE ALSO NEED THE JOHN LEWIS ACT AS WELL, TO REALLY RESTORE SECTION 5 OF THE VOTER RIGHTS ACT.

BECAUSE IF WE HAD THAT IN PLACE, THAT THE SUPREME COURT GUTTED IN THE SHELBY DECISION SEVERAL YEARS AGO, ALL OF THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED IN ITS TRACKS IN SO MANY JURISDICTIONS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

>> Braude: AND REMEMBER IN THAT CASE JOHN ROBERTS WAS THE SWING VOTE.

HE APPEARS NOT TO HAVE ENOUGH POWER TO BE THE SWING VOTE NOW.

IT IS IN THE HANDS OF CONGRESS.

I WANT TO BROACH WITH YOU IF I MAY A COUPLE OF LEGAL ISSUES.

I WANT TO SHOW YOU A VIDEO LATOSHA ALL OF AMERICA HAS SEEN REPEATEDLY.

STATE REPRESENTATIVE PARK CANNON BEING ARRESTED WHILE GOVERNOR KEMP IS INSIDE HIS OFFICE SIGNING THIS BILL INTO LAW.

HERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF THAT.

>> YEAH, YOU SAID YOU'D GIVE HER ONE MORE TIME, LIKE YOU'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING.

>> ARE YOU SERIOUS?

NO, YOU ARE NOT!

>> NO, SHE'S NOT UNDER ARREST!

UNDER ARREST FOR WHAT?

WHY IS SHE UNDER ARREST?

FOR TRYING TO SEE SOMETHING OUR GOVERNOR IS DOING?

>> Braude: WHAT CRIME DID REPRESENTATIVE CANNON COMMIT THERE, LATOSHA?

>> SHE'S A BLACK COME IN A RACIST STATE WHERE WHAT WE'RE SEEING, WHERE CURRENTLY THERE ARE LEADERS IN THIS STATE HAVE ALIGNED THEMSELVES WITH A RACIST AGENDA.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS IF YOU SEE THAT IMAGE AND US JUXTAPOSE THAT TO THE OTHER IMAGE OF THE SIGNING OF THE BILL, HERE IS A STATE THAT YOU'RE SEEING A WHITE MALE SITTING UP UNDER A PICTURE OF A PLANTATION A NOTORIOUS PLANTATION IN THE STATE OF GEORGIA HAS A NOTORIOUS HISTORY, FLANKED BY SIX WHITE MEN.

THAT IS NOT REFLECTIVE OF WHO MAKES UP THE STATE OF GEORGIA.

SO TO ACTUALLY SEE THAT AND TO SEE THAT THIS WOMAN WAS MAN-HANDLED BY THE STATE TROOPERS AND SHE'S A DID YOULY DID DULY ELECTED OFFICIAL, AND A GOVERNOR WHO SHOULDN'T HAVE A LOCK UP IN HIS OFFICE TO SIGN A BILL?

IT IS AN ATROCITY SOMETHING I HAVE NOT SEEN BUT VERY SYMBOLIC OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY.

AS A BLACK WOMAN, I THINK BLACK WOMEN HAVE BEEN ON THE FRONT LINE AND THE VANGUARD OF ASKING FOR ACCOUNTABILITY.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU SAW IN THAT AND IN MANY WAYS THAT WE HAVE BEEN ATTACKED, OUR BODIES HAVE BEEN ATTACKED BY POLITICALLY WE HAVE BEEN ATTACKED.

SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING.

SO IF YOU USE JUST PUT THOSE IMAGES OF WHAT WAS ON ONE SIDE OF THE ROOM AND THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROOM IT IS SYMBOLIC OF WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW OF DEMOCRACY IN THE COUNTRY AT THIS TIME, WHO WAS STANDING IN THE GAP STANDING FOR ACCOUNTABILITY AND DEMOCRACY.

>> Braude: I HAVE ONE OTHER QUESTION, ONE OTHER POSSIBLE CRIMINAL PROSECUTION IN GEORGIA, FANNY LEWIS APPARENTLY IS BEEFING UP HER TROOPS IN HER INVESTIGATION OF WHETHER DONALD TRUMP L IN THAT PHONE CALL THAT WAS REFERENCED BY LATOSHA WHERE HE ASKED THE SECRETARY OF STATE TO FIND 11,780 VOTES, IT SEEMS TO ME FROM TELEPHONE THOUSAND PLUS MILES AWAY -- FROM SEVERAL THOUSAND PLUS MILES AWAY THAT SHE IS GEARING UP FOR APROSECUTION.

IS THAT A FAIR ANALYSIS FROM AFAR?

>> IT'S ABOUT TIME THAT THE APPARATUS STARTED TO WORKING ON BEHALF OF JUSTICE AND WHOSE VOICES AND VOTES AND VERY VITALITY ARE TRYING TO BE STRIPPED AWAY FROM THEM.

SO WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN THERE BUT I THINK GOING BACK TO WHAT HAD LATOSHA SAID IS RIGHT.

YOU JUXTAPOSE HOW APPARATUS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT GETS USED AGAINST BLACK BODIES, THIS BLACK WOMAN IN PARTICULAR WHO ARE ON THE FRONT LINES, FANNY LOU HAMER TODAY COMPARED TO WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th, HOW SOME OF THE RIOTERS WERE WELCOMED IN, RIGHT?

THAT JUXTAPOSITION IS THE INHERENT DIVIDE IN OUR DEMOCRACY AND IT'S TIME TO FIX THAT ONCE AND FOR ALL, AT LEAST TRY TO DO IT ON OUR WATCH.

>> Braude: PASSENGER SECONDS.

LATOSHA.

YOU'RE ONE OF THE MOST RELENTLESS PEOPLE I HAVE EVER MET IN MY LIFE.

I ASSUME YOU STILL HOLD OUT HOPE THAT THIS LEGISLATURE CAN BE REPEALED.

IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?

>> IT IS.

I CONTINUE TO SAY WHAT I DO BELIEVE IN THE CONSTITUTION CAN WE THE PEOPLE YOU KNOW?

WHEN I'VE BEEN AT THE PROTEST, WHEN I'VE BEEN AT THE MEETINGS I'VE SEEN A BROAD BASED, MULTIRACIAL, MULTIGENERATIONAL COALITION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING NO, NOT TODAY.

SO THAT GIVES ME A LOT OF HOPE.

>> Braude: LATOSHA BROWN, DAMON HEWITT, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: HE'S ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST CELEBRATED AND MOST NOTORIOUS WRITERS, AND, OFTEN, THE STORIES OF ERNEST HEMINGWAY HIMSELF WAS AS WELL-READ AS THE ONES HE WROTE-- FROM HIS HUNTING, HIS DRINKING, HIS FOUR COMPLICATED MARRIAGES, AND THE TIME HE OFFERED 250 BUCKS TO ANYONE WHO COULD GO THREE ROUNDS AGAINST HIM IN A FISTFIGHT.

APPARENTLY, NO ONE EVER COULD.

>> HEMINGWAY CONSTRUCTED HIS MYTH TO A LARGE DEGREE, AND HE MADE THE MISTAKE THAT ALL MYTHMAKERS DO-- HE THOUGHT THAT HE COULD CONTROL IT.

AND THERE COMES A TIME THAT YOU CAN'T ANYMORE.

>> BRAUDE: LIKE WITH MY NEXT TWO GUESTS.

A NEW, THREE-PART DOCUSERIES FROM PBS SIMPLY TITLED "HEMINGWAY" DIVES INTO THE MAN BEHIND THE MYTHS.

I'M JOINED NOW BY FILMMAKERS LYNN NOVICK AND KEN BURNS.

LYNN AND KEN IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU JIM, GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: SO KEN, STARTING WITH YOU, WE LEARNED IN YOUR FILM THAT MAYBE THE GREATEST WRITER IN THE LAST CENTURY WAS DEALING WITH SOME OF THE -- MANY OF THE ISSUES THAT MERE MORTALS ARE DEALING WITH IN THIS CENTURY.

IS IT FAIR TO SAY LET'S STNRT WITH THIS, IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT THERE WAS AN INVERSE PROPORTION BETWEEN HIS GROWING FAME, GROWING SUCCESS AND HIS LEVEL OF SEX CONFIDENCE?

THIS IS WAS AN INSECURE MAN WAS IT NOT?

>> I THINK SO.

THAT IS VERY ASTUTE AS LOOKING AT IT.

THIS IS A GUY WHO HAS A COMPLICATED FINALLY LIFE, A FATHER WHO COMMITS SUICIDE.

HE EXPERIENCED PTSD IN THE FIRST WORLD WAR AS AN AMBULANCE DRIVER.

WHEN HE COMES BACK HE BEGINS TO CONSTRUCT THIS MYTHOLOGY THAT WILL BE SEEMINGLY IMPEN TRABLG.

BEHIND IT ASK A CURIOSITY, ABOUT DEATH, A GREAT OBSERVER ABOUT NATURE, ABOUT HOW WOMEN AND MEN GET ALONG, AND OF COURSE HE DEALS WITH WAR.

SO WHAT YOU HAVE IS AN EXTRAORDINARILY GIFTED WRITER WHO IS HIMSELF IN THE ACT OF DEALING WITH IT CONSUMED BY DEMONS AND ONE OF THEM IS ONE THAT MICHAEL KATAKUS IS DEALING WITH, ONE OF DEALING WITH IT, EXHAUSTING AND IMPOSSIBLE.

>> Braude: MUCH MEN WHO RARELY WEAR A SHIRT WAS MORE CONFIDENT BUT I WAS WRONG.

HIS TREATMENT OF WOMEN IN LIFE AND IN FICTION HERE IT IS A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED.

I MENTIONED MARRIED FOUR TIMES NOT IMMUNE TO MISS ON MISOGYNY.

FROM THE GREATEST IRISH NOVELIST EDNA O'BRIEN.

>> PARTS OF "A FAREWELL TO ARMS" COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY A WOMAN.

I REGARD THAT AS A COMPLIMENT.

HEMINGWAY MAY HAVE REGARDED IT AS AN INSULT, BUT I DON'T, BECAUSE IT IS THE ANDROGYNY IN A MAN OR A WOMAN THAT ALLOWS THEM, EVEN IF BRIEFLY, NOT UTTERLY, TO BE ABLE TO PUT THEMSELVES INSIDE THE SKIN OF THE OPPOSITE.

>> Braude: COY LISTEN TO THAT IN A LOOP ALL DAY LONG.

HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE THE DICHOTOMY, LYNN, HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE IT?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, WE JUST HAVE TO LOOK PAST THAT MYTH TO WHO HE REALLY WAS AND WHAT HE WAS INTERESTED IN.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS HE REALLY WANTED TO GET DOWN PEN ON PAPER IS HOW MEN AND WOMEN RELATE TO ONE ANOTHER AND ESPECIALLY WHAT HAPPENS WHEN MEN ARE MEN AS HIS TIME, WHICH CAN BE WHAT ONE OF THE SCHOLARS SAYS ARE MASS KILN MASCULINE ASSERTION.

YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT I WANT.

HE DOCUMENTS THAT SO BEAUTIFULLY AGAIN AND AGAIN FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE WOMAN.

AND WHEN YOU READ THOSE STORIES, LIKE A FAIR WELL TO ARMS OR A STORY UP IN MICHIGAN HE WROTE UP IN -- EARLY IN HIS CAREER, THE READER FEELS THE MAN IS NOT DOING THE RIGHT THING, THE WOMAN YOU CARE ABOUT, YOU EMPATHIZE WITH AND UNDERSTAND.

SO AS A MAN'S MAN HE OF ALL PEOPLE UNDERSTANDS AND TRIES TO SHOW THE WORLD WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT.

AND THAT DOESN'T TAKE -- YOU DON'T HAVE TO STRETCH TOO FAR PAST THE CIRCUS OF HEMINGWAY, TO UNDERSTAND THAT, EMMA WANTED TO COME OUT AND SPEAK AND SHE FELT HE HAD BEEN MISUNDERSTOOD.

>> Braude: I'M WITH EDNA.

KEN OF THE MOST SURPRISING THINGS I LEARNED ABOUT HIM, WAS FROM YOU GUYS, ABOUT HIS SEXUALITY, HIS GENDER FLUIDITY.

HERE IS A SMALL PIECE, A BEGINNING OF THIS PIECE FROM ONE OF HIS BIOGRAPHERS.

>> SHE DID THIS THING OF TWINNING HIM WITH HIS SISTER.

SHE DRESSED THEM ALIKE.

SHE DRESSED THEM IN DRESSES OFTEN, BUT THEN SHE PUT THEM IN OVERALLS.

SHE DIDN'T ONLY DRESS HIM UP AS A GIRL.

SOMETIMES, SHE DRESSED HIM UP AS BOYS.

THERE IS THIS ANDROGYNY GOING ON.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW KEN MANY BOYS WERE DRESSED UP AS LITTLE GIRLS BY ONE OF THEIR PARENTS.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S SO UNUSUAL.

BUT AS WE LEARNED FROM YOUR FILM THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING OF THE STORY.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

AND I THINK WHATEVER, WHERE IT CAME FROM THE AIR OR IT WAS A COMMON VICTORIAN HABIT, I DON'T THINK AS VOLUME UP CHUSLY THE VOLUME UP VOLUPCHUOUSLY, HE IS ASKING HIS WIVES TO CUT THEIR HAIR SHORT, ALL FOUR OF THEM.

HE'S SORT OF ALL FOUR OOF THEM, I DON'T KNOW IT'S AS MUCH A QUESTION OF SEXUALITY, BUT GENDER CURIOSITY, WHAT ARE THESE LINES, ARE THEY REALLY THERE?

THESE ARE SOME PRETTY BIG MARKERS IN OUR SOCIETY, GUARDRAILS MAYBE IS THE BETTER WORLD IN WHICH ONLY NOW, WE'RE BEGINNING TO HAVE THE CONFIDENCE TO TALK ABOUT IT WITH A BIT OF OPENNESS.

AND HEMINGWAY IS EXPLORING IT PRETTY EARLY ON.

I THINK FOR THOSE OF WAREHOUSE MIGHT BECAUSE OF THAT TOXIC MASCULINITY AND ALL THE OTHER JUNK COMMEND HIM TO SOME SORT OF ASH HEAP OF HISTORY, YOU REALLY CAN'T DO THAT.

BECAUSE HE'S SPEAKING SOME UNIVERSAL TRUTHS THAT PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD UNDERSTAND, STILL TO THIS DAY, AND HE'S DEALING WITH STUFF IN HIS LIFE AND IN HIS ART THAT WE'RE NOW JUST LEARNING HOW TO TALK ABOUT.

LET ALONE, MASTER.

NOT THAT HE MASTERED IT.

BUT I THINK THIS CURIOSITY IS BELIES THE WEARYING, TIRESOME MACHO POSTURING.

>> Braude: LYNN, I THINK YOU KNOW ALREADY THAT I'M WILDLY INTERESTED IN THE BURNS-NOISK PAIRING.

IT IS WHAT IT IS.

HOW DID YOU GUYS SETTLE ON HEMINGWAY?

WHO FIRST PROPOSED IT?

WAS IT AN EASY FIX WHEN YOU TWO OF YOU STARTED DISCUSSING IT?

HOW DID IT COME ABOUT?

>> KEN HAD ABOUT BEEN THINKING ABOUT YEARS BEFORE I MET HIM, I CAME IN 1989 WHEN KEN AND HIS TEAM WERE ENGAGED IN THE CIVIL WAR.

BECAUSE OF THE WORK THEY HAD ALREADY DONE WHAT WAS A GREAT ICONIC AMERICAN SUBJECT.

I CAME TO THAT WITHOUT NOTHING IT BY GOING TO KEY WEST IN THE 1990S AND BEING INTERESTED IN HIS LIFE AND HIS WORK, BEING IN HIS HOME, FEELING HIS PRESENCE THERE AND WONDERING HOW DID I NOT THINK THIS WOULD BE A GREAT IDEA AND COMING BACK TO TALK TO KEN AND JEFF WARD AND THEY WERE ALREADY THINKING ABOUT IT.

THAT WAS A WHILE AGO.

IT CAME FOR US TO COME TO STREET LIGHTING IT FOR OURSELVES.

>> Braude: I CAN'T IMAGINE TOUCHING A MASTER LIKE THIS AND WHAT IT FEELS LIKE.

DID I INTERRUPT YOU KEN?

>> NO NO NO.

I WANTED TO AMPLIFY.

SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING LIKE THE NATIONAL PARKS, YOU GO YES, YOU START WORKING ON IT THE NEXT DAY.

AS LYNN AND I WERE FINISHING THE WORLD WAR II FILM THE WAR, WE SAID YES AND TEN AND A HALF YEARS LATER IT WAS DONE.

THIS HAD TO MARINATE OR INCUBATE.

NOT ON ANY RELUCTANCE ON OUR PART.

BUT WHERE IT IS IN YOUR GUT YOU SAY YES TO THIS.

WE KNEW THIS HAD TO BE DIFFICULT, WE KNEW WE HAD TO UNDERTOE CONTRADICTIONS WITHIN THIS IMPORTANT MAN AND RISE ABOVE THE KIND OF BINARY JUDGMENTS WE LIKE TO MAKE SO FREQUENTLYATHESE DAYS.

>> Braude: I ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT BUT THE SAME QUESTION FOR BOTH OF YOU.

IF YOU TOOK A HEMINGWAY BOOK OR STORY STARTING WITH YOU KEN THAT YOU READ BEFORE THE PROJECT AND AFTER, THE SAME BOOK OR STORY, AFTER YOU BECAME INTIMATE WITH HEMINGWAY AS YOU BOTH DID WOULD IT CARRY DIFFERENT MEANING THAN IT DID BEFORE, KEN FIRST?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> Braude: HOW SO?

>> I THINK IT ENRICHES IT WHEN YOU KNOW A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT IT.

I WOULD SAY INDIAN CAMP WHICH IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE STORIES.

I BEGAN TO UNDERSTAND THAT ALL OF HIS STRUGGLES, TOLSTOY IS IN BIG SWEEP ACROSS CHARACTERS, HEMINGWAY IS AN EXISTENTIAL BLIP, AND I THINK HE'S GOING TO LIVE FOREVER.

BUT NOBODY IS GOING TO LIVE FOREVER BUT IN THIS MOMENT YOU CAN, THERE'S NO PAST, THERE'S NO FUTURE THERE'S JUST NOW.

I READ THAT AND I STILL WEEP AT IT.

AND A LOT OF IT HAD TO DO WITH YOU KNOW THE GARDENING THAT WE DID IN HIS LIFE.

>> Braude: HOW ABOUT YOU LYNN?

>> FOR ME, I'D HAVE TO SAY PROBABLY THE OLD MAN AND THE SEA, WHICH I READ IN SCHOOL AND I THOUGHT IT WAS KIND OF BORING, I DIDN'T GET IT, NOTHING REALLY HAPPENED.

IT SEEMED KINDS OF ENDLESS TO ME AS A MIDDLE SCHOOL STUDENT.

BUT IN THE COURSE OF WORKING ON THE FILM AND SPEAKING TO ALL THE WRITERS ABOUT IT, AND HAVING THEM EXPLAIN TO ME AND GOING BACKS AND READING IT FOR MYSELF ABOUT WHAT IT REALLY WAS ABOUT, I HADN'T GOTTEN BACK TO IT, A FABLE A PARABLE OF WHAT IS LOST, LANGUAGE WAS SO PRISTINE, THE FACT THAT HE WAS ABLE TO DO THAT IN HIS LIFE WHEN HE HAD BEEN THROUGH SO MUCH, THE CONTEXT, THE DEMONS HE WAS ABLE TO STRUGGLE WITH, IT'S DEVASTATING INSPIRING AND TIMELESS.

JBDZ I>> Braude: I LOVE THAT.

I WAS HOPING YOU WOULD HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO CAN RECITE ALL 40 DIFFERENTLY ENDINGS TO A FAIR WELL TO ARMS.

-- A FAREWELL TO ARMS.

, THANK YOU, CONGRATULATIONS TO BOTH OF YOU.

>> THANK YOU JIM.

>> YOU CAN WATCH HEMINGWAY STARTING APRIL 5 RIGHT HERE ON GBH2 AND ONLINE AT WWW.PBS.ORG/ HEMINGWAY.

AND FINALLY TONIGHT, WE RECEIVED SOME FEEDBACK ON MY RECENT SEGMENT WITH THE "WASHINGTON POST'S" PERSONAL FINANCE COLUMNIST, MICHELLE SINGLETARY LIKE LAINE WHO WROTE IN: "THANKS FOR HAVING MICHELLE ON."

PETER, WHO TWEETED US TO SAY SHE WAS "TERRIFIC."

AND PATRICIA, WHO SAID: "I'VE READ HER COLUMNS FOR YEARS AND LOVE HER COMMON SENSE FINANCIAL ADVICE.

IT WAS A GREAT TREAT TO 'SEE' HER ON YOUR PROGRAM."

FOR ME, TOO.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

WE'LL TAKE A LOOK AT HOW LATINOS HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND BY THE STATE'S VACCINE ROLL-OUT.

PLUS, BIDEN'S MULTITRILLION- DOLLAR INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN AND THE TAXES HE'S PROPOSING TO HELP PAY FOR IT.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪