♪ JARED: I AM JARED BOWEN.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," FROM CHAT GPT AND ROBOTS TO FAKE PHOTOS, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ARE MOVING AT LIGHTNING SPEED, PROMPTING MAJOR CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT AI CAN DO BUT WHAT IT SHOULD DO.

I WILL TALK TO HARVARD PROFESSOR DANIELLE ALLEN, AN EXPERT TALKING ABOUT AN INDUSTRYWIDE PAUSE ON AI.

MICHAEL JEFFRIES ON HIS NEW BOOK THE CHRONICLES THE CHALLENGES OF BEING BLACK AND QUEER ON CAMPUS.

WE WILL TALK TO ACTOR GAVIN CREEL AS BROADWAY COMES TO BOSTON.

IS IT TIME TO PULL THE PLUG ON ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE?

ADVANCES IN AI HAVE BROUGHT US REMARKABLE ADVANCES IN RECENT YEARS, SOME WITH LIFESAVING APPLICATIONS LIKE CANCER SCREENINGS AND CLIMATE CHANGE TRACKING.

BUT THEN THERE ARE PROGRAMS LIKE CHATGPT, WHICH IS MADE HEADLINES.

NOW AS AI'’S DARKER SIDE COMES INTO FOCUS, A GROUP OF SCIENCE, TECH AND ETHICS EXPERTS ARE CALLING FOR A PAUSE.

INDUSTRY LEADERS INCLUDING ELON MUSK AND STEVE WOZNIAK WRITE IN PART RECENT MONTHS HAVE SEEN AI LABS AND OUT-OF-CONTROL RACE TO EMPLOY DIGITAL MINDS THAT NO ONE, NOT EVEN THE CREATORS CAN UNDERSTAND, PREDICT OR CONTROL.

TO THE SUM 1500 PEOPLE WHO HAVE SIGNED A LETTER, THEY ARE ASKING FOR AI LABS TO COMMIT TO A SIX-MONTH PAUSE ON DEVELOPMENT.

IF SUCH A PAUSE CANNOT BE ENACTED QUICKLY, GOVERNMENT SHOULD STEP IN AND INSTITUTE A MORATORIUM.

I AM JOINED BY ONE OF THE LETTER'’S SIGNATORIES, DANIELLE ALLEN, THE DIRECTOR OF THE UNIVERSITY'’S EDMOND & LILY SAFRA CENTER FOR ETHICS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

PROF. ALLEN: GLAD TO BE HERE.

JARED: LET'’S SET THE STAGE.

I HAVE NOT SLEPT FOR THE LAST THREE MONTHS SINCE I STARTED DIVING INTO THIS.

20 YEARS FROM NOW, HOW WILL WE BE LOOKING BACK AT THIS MOMENT?

PROF. ALLEN: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION AND I APPRECIATE YOUR SLEEPLESSNESS.

FOR ME AND OTHERS IN THIS SPACE, THIS IS LIKE THE BEGINNING OF COVID AGAIN.

THE MAGNITUDE IS SO GREAT AND THINGS ARE MOVING SO FAST THAT PEOPLE ARE TRYING REAL HARD TO FIGURE IT OUT.

I AM SORRY YOU ARE IN THAT CATEGORY, TOO, BUT YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

IN TERMS OF HOW WE WILL THINK ABOUT IT IN 20 YEARS, WHEN I TALKED TO TECHNOLOGISTS ABOUT WHAT THEY SAY, THE USE EXTRAORDINARY METAPHORS.

ONE I RECENTLY HEARD IS SOMEONE SAID IT IS LIKE THE INVENTION OF FIRE.

THAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE THAT PEOPLE ARE CREDITING TO THIS AND THEY ARE RIGHT.

I TEND TO USE THE METAPHORS LIKE THE INVENTION OF GUNPOWDER OR NUCLEAR POWER.

THESE ARE BOTH INVENTIONS THAT CHANGE WHAT HUMAN BEINGS CAN DO IN FUNDAMENTAL WAYS.

SOCIETY CHANGED AROUND THOSE TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENTS.

THIS IS REALLY ON THAT SCALE AND WE SHOULD BE TAKING IT SERIOUSLY.

JARED: TAKE US THROUGH THE THINGS THAT ARE MOST CONCERNING TO YOU BECAUSE WE TALK ABOUT THIS AND SOME OF IT I GET HAS BEEN IN JOKING TERMS OR TERMS WE DO NOT SEEM TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT, THAT CHATGPT CAN WRITE YOUR RESUME OR HELP STUDENTS CHEAT ON THEIR EXAMS, NOT THAT THAT IS LIGHT SUBJECT MATTER.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE DARKER REALMS WE ARE FACING WITH THE ADVANCEMENT OF THIS TECHNOLOGY?

PROF. ALLEN: IN THE LAST MONTH, WE HAVE SEEN A SEACHANGE IN CAPABILITY.

CHATGPT WAS ONE THING BUT AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS MONTH, OPEN AI RELEASED CHATGPT4, WHICH IS AT A LEVEL OF FUNCTIONALITY.

3 WAS ABLE TO PERFORM AT THE FIFTH PERCENTILE WHEN YOU COMPARED IT AGAINST HUMANS ON LSAT OR THE WORK THAT COMPUTER CODERS DO.

IT CAN NOW PERFORM ON PAR WITH THE TOP PROFESSIONALS IN THE FIELD ACROSS THE BOARD.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR WORKFORCE?

WE SHOULD PROBABLY EXPECT SOME SERIOUS LAYOFFS, ESPECIALLY IN THE TECH SECTOR.

THAT WOULD BE A NEAR-TERM IMPACT.

BY THE SAME TOKEN, THE PERSON WHO USED THE METAPHOR OF FIRE, FIRE CARBONIZED IS -- IT TAKES CARBON AND TURNS IT INTO ENERGY.

WHAT THIS DOES IS TAKE CONTENT AND TURN IT INTO ENERGY.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, EXACTLY?

IT MEANS ANYBODY AT THIS POINT WITH A DIGITAL FOOTPRINT CAN BE IMPERSONATED.

CHATGPT HAS THE CAPABILITY OF WRITING AN OP-ED IN THE STYLE OF DANIELLE ALLEN.

IT COULD WRITE COLUMNS IN MY VOICE AND YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE.

WE ARE ALREADY LIVING IN A WORLD THAT IS JUST ROUNDING IN MISINFORMATION -- DROWNING IN MISINFORMATION.

IT IS ABOUT TO GET WORSE.

JARED: THIS LETTER HAS GONE OUT.

THERE IS NO REASONABLE EXPECTATION THIS PAUSE WILL HAPPEN.

HOW IS THE TECH WORLD RESPONDING?

ESPECIALLY WHEN BIG COMPANIES HAVE WALKED AWAY FROM THIS LETTER AND HAVE NO INTENTION OF SIGNING?

PROF. ALLEN: I THINK IT IS TIME FOR GOVERNMENT TO STEP UP.

I THINK THE U.N. SHOULD BE INVOLVED IN THE CONVERSATION AND IT IS TIME FOR A GLOBAL CONVENTION TO ESTABLISH A PAUSE.

I WOULD USE THE ANALOGY TO NUCLEAR POWER.

NUCLEAR POWER WAS DEVELOPED BY GOVERNMENTS IN THE MIDDLE OF WARTIME.

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF THINGS WE COULD SAY OR CRITIQUE ABOUT HOW THAT UNFOLDED.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THERE WAS A RAPID PERIOD OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW GLOBAL CONVENTIONS WERE MANAGING THIS FORCE THAT HAD GOOD THINGS IT COULD DO, IT COULD PROVIDE ENERGY, BUT IT COULD ALSO DO X ESSENTIALLY DESTRUCTIVE THINGS.

THIS NEW TECHNOLOGY, FOUNDATION MODELS, THEY CAN DO A LOT OF GOOD FOR US.

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF WAYS THEY CAN COMPLENEMENT HUMAN CAPABILITIES THE SAME WAY A TELESCOPE CAN SEE THINGS THAT OUR EYE CANNOT SEE.

WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO PUT GUARDRAILS ON THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES.

IT IS TIME FOR GOVERNMENTS TO STEP UP AND SAY, TECH COMPANIES, YOU DO NOT GET TO DECIDE THIS ONE.

WE NEED A PAUSE.

JARED: MANY PEOPLE POINT OUT POLITICIANS DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING.

I DON'’T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS IS BURIED IN THE BUSINESS SECTION AND NOT FRONT-PAGE NEWS, WHICH IS WHY WE ARE DOING ON THE TOP OF THE NEWS.

IF GOVERNMENTS DO NOT STEP FORWARD, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE FIRST GOVERNMENT OR CORPORATE ENTITY THAT TAKES THIS AND MANIFESTS IT IN A HUGE WAY?

PROF. ALLEN: OPEN AI, WHAT THEY ARE DOING WITH GPT4, WE CAN EXPECT THE FUNCTIONALITY TO BEGIN TO BE LIKE A UTILITY.

SOMETHING THAT EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE ENTIRE WORLD IS TRYING TO USE IN THE SAME WAY WE USE ELECTRICITY.

THEY WILL BLOW UP AS A MASSIVE COMPANY.

THEY WILL MAKE INCREDIBLE PROFITS.

THEY ARE THE SOLE CONTROLLER OF WHAT IS A UTILITY FOR THE ENTIRE GLOBE.

YOU HAVE A PROBLEM RIGHT THERE.

THERE IS A LOT TO THINK ABOUT.

HOW DOES THE CORPORATE SECTOR ENGAGED?

HOW DO WE THINK ABOUT THE IMPACTS ON POLITICS BECAUSE OF MISINFORMATION?

ISSUES FOR THE WORKFORCE?

YOU SAID WHY IS THIS BURIED IN THE BUSINESS PAGES?

THAT IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.

THE ANSWER IS BECAUSE THE CORPORATE SECTOR HAS DEVELOPED THIS.

IT IS TIME FOR US TO SEE THE PUBLIC CONSEQUENCES ARE SO SIGNIFICANT THAT WE DID THE PUBLIC SECTOR TO STEP UP, CATCH UP AND BE READY TO HELP SHAPE AND DIRECT THIS.

JARED: WHAT DO WE MAKE OF THE SPEED OF THIS?

I LOOK BACK TO A STORY I DID AT THE M.I.T.

MUSEUM LAST FALL, WHERE I SAT DOWN AND COWROTE A POEM WITH AI SOFTWARE.

I THOUGHT, IS IT THAT CUTE?

HERE WE ARE SIX MONTHS LATER AND NOW WE ARE SEEING THE DARKER REALMS.

WE SEE IT HAS THE POSSIBILITY TO DISSEMINATE THIS INFORMATION.

IT TRIED TO BREAK UP -- THE DARKER WAYS IT WAS ROOTING AROUND IN SOMEONE'’S LIFE.

THERE ARE DARK PLACES THIS IS GOING AND IT IS FAR AND BEYOND WHAT I EXPERIENCED LAST FALL BECAUSE OF THE RAPID DEVELOPMENT.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT WE HAVE TO KEEP UP WITH THIS PACE?

PROF. ALLEN: HERE IS HOW FAR IT IS SPREADING.

MY 11-YEAR-OLD SON ASKED ME IF HE COULD GET A $5 PER MONTH SUBSCRIPTION TO A SERVICE THAT WOULD LET HIM IMPERSONATE ANYONE'’S VOICE.

THE REASON WAS SO HE COULD CALL THE SCHOOL AND GET EXCUSED FROM SCHOOL USING MY VOICE.

MY 11-YEAR-OLD IS ALREADY GETTING THE OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES FOR, LET'’S CALL THEM NEFARIOUS PURPOSES.

IMAGINE THEM IN THE HANDS OF GENUINELY BAD ACTORS, WHERE THIS COULD END.

JARED: I WILL CHECK OURSELVES A LITTLE BIT.

YOU DON'’T THINK WERE BEING HYSTERICAL?

WE ACKNOWLEDGE CANCER, BLINDNESS, THERE ARE VERY GOOD APPLICATIONS FOR THIS.

THERE ARE PEOPLE SAYING WE ARE BEING HYSTERICAL.

THIS IS NOT DOOMSDAY.

ANY TRUTH TO THAT?

PROF. ALLEN: I THINK THESE ARE GOOD TECHNOLOGIES AND THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD THEY CAN DO.

I'’M NOT SAYING WE DON'’T NEED THESE.

I WAS A SKEPTIC FOR A LONG TIME.

WE ARE MAKING WAY TOO MUCH OF AI AND SO FORTH.

WHAT PEOPLE REALLY NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS THERE HAS LITERALLY BEEN A HUGE SHIFT IN THE CAPABILITY OF THE TECHNOLOGY.

THAT IS LESSON NUMBER 1, THE MOST IMPORTANT TAKE AWAY, TODAY'’S AI IS NOT SIRI.

WE HAVE TOTALLY CHANGED CATEGORIES AND THAT IS WHY WE NEED TO HAVE A PAUSE, GET OUR ARMS AROUND THE MAGNITUDE OF THE CAPACITY AND THEN PROCEED.

JARED: DANIELLE ALLEN, IT IS YOUR VOICE, NOT YOUR SON'’S VOICE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

PROF. ALLEN: YOU NEVER KNOW.

THANK YOU, JARED.

[LAUGHTER] JARED: THE MAJORITY OF AMERICAN COLLEGES AND TECHNOLOGIES WERE DESIGNED FOR STRAIGHT, WHITE MEN.

DESPITE RECENT ADVANCEMENTS, AS AUTHOR MICHAEL JEFFRIES POINTS OUT IN A NEW BOOK, THERE IS STILL A LONG WAY TO GO FOR MARGINALIZED COLLEGE STUDENTS.

"BLACK AND QUEER ON CAMPUS" SHINES A LIGHT ON THE EXPERIENCES OF BLACK LGBTQ+ STUDENTS FROM MORE THAN TWO DOZEN COLLEGES.

HE IS A PROFESSOR AND THE DEAN OF ACADEMIC AFFAIRS AT WELLESLEY COLLEGE.

WELCOME.

DEAN JEFFRIES: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

JARED: I AM EXCITED TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR INTERESTS FOR WRITING THIS BOOK.

DEAN JEFFRIES: IT WAS DRIVEN BY MY EXPERIENCE AS A PROFESSOR.

I HAD STUDENTS FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE AND BACKGROUNDS AND SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS I HAD WITH THEM CLUED ME INTO THE THINGS THEY WERE DEALING WITH AS COLLEGE STUDENTS WITH COMPETING PRESSURES -- PRESSURES FROM HOME, PRESSURES FROM CAMPUS.

THE BLACK AND QUEER STUDENTS I SPOKE TO WERE HAVING TROUBLE FINDING THAT NICHE WHEN THEY STEPPED ON CAMPUS.

THE OTHER BIG FACTOR WAS THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT, WHICH WAS FOUNDED BY BLACK QUEER WOMEN.

IT WAS A TIME OF GREAT POLITICAL UPHEAVAL AND I WAS INTERESTED TO WHETHER THE STUDENTS SAW THEMSELVES AS THE LEADERS OF A POLITICAL VANGUARD GIVEN THAT THE BLACK LIVES MATTER WILL BIT WAS FOUNDED BY BLACK QUUER PEOPLE -- QUEER PEOPLE.

JARED: IT IS A LOT OF RESPONSIBILITY TO BEAR WHETHER OR NOT WHO THEY WANT TO BE PUBLICLY OUTWARD ABOUT WHO THEY ARE.

HOW DOES THAT BREAK DOWN?

DEAN JEFFRIES: YOU SAID IT EXACTLY RIGHT.

IT IS A HUGE RESPONSIBILITY.

THERE IS A TREMENDOUS DIVERSITY AMONG THE STUDENTS.

SOME STUDENTS REALLY DO THINK OF THEMSELVES AS POLITICALLY RADICAL, PEOPLE WHO ARE POLITICALLY ENGAGED AND TAKE A GREAT DEAL OF RESPONSIBILITIES THAT ONLY FOR THEMSELVES BUT THE COMMUNITIES THEY BELONG TO.

OTHER STUDENTS ARE TRYING TO LEAD MORE ORDINARY LIVES AS COLLEGE STUDENTS.

THEY'’RE TRYING TO GET USED TO BEING AWAY FROM HOME, MAKING NEW FRIENDS, FINDING THE STUDIES THEY ARE INTERESTED IN AS SCHOOL AND DO THAT WHAT TO BE BOTHERED.

THEY HAVE A HARD TIME PAYING ATTENTION TO THE NEWS AND BEING THAT ENGAGE WITH POLITICS.

JARED: ANOTHER LEVEL OF RESPONSIBILITY, PERHAPS, THIS TERM "FLY AND FABULOUS," WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

DEAN JEFFRIES: WHEN WE TALK ABOUT BLACK QUEER FABULOUSNESS, AND UNAPOLOGETIC, OUTGOING PERFORMANCE OF GENDER.

WE CAN THINK ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE BILLY PORTER, QUEER BLACK CELEBRITIES WHO PRESENT THEMSELVES IN THAT WAY.

THAT IS IMPORTANT RESISTANCE AND JOY FOR BLACK FOLK.

THAT IS NOT THE ONLY WAY THAT QUEER BLACK FOLK LIVE THEIR LIVES.

I LET STUDENTS DESCRIBE THEMSELVES ON THEIR OWN TERMS WITHOUT FALLING BACK ON WIDELY RECOGNIZED STEREOTYPES.

SOME STUDENTS EMBRACE THAT STYLE OF LIFE AND OTHERS ARE MORE QUIET AND INTROVERTED.

SHOWING THAT RANGE IS REALLY VALUABLE.

JARED: FOR THOSE QUIET INTROVERTED KIDS, IS THERE A PRESSURE OR EXPECTATION THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE PART OF THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE FABULOUSNESS OF BILLY PORTER?

DEAN JEFFRIES: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

I DON'’T THINK THERE IS.

FOR SOME THE OF THE STUDENTS, THEY ARE ON A JOURNEY.

A GRADUAL PROCESS OF COMING INTO THE LIFE.

WHAT THEY FIND THE GET TO CAMPUS IS ONCE THEY FIND A GROUP OF QUEER BLACK STUDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE SAME THINGS, THESE ARE GENERALLY VERY ACCEPTING FOLKS WITH A GREAT LATITUDE OF HOW YOU STYLE YOURSELF, THE KIND OF THINGS YOU ARE INTO.

THERE IS NOT THAT KIND OF INTERNAL PRESSURE FROM THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY TO BE A CERTAIN TYPE OF QUEER.

JARED: THERE IS A STEREOTYPE THAT EXISTS ABOUT THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND THAT IS THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS FAR LESS TOLERANT OF LGBTQ ISSUES.

DEAN JEFFRIES: THANK YOU FOR THE QUESTION.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS BECAUSE OFTEN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT STEREOTYPES OF BLACK HOMOPHOBIA, BLACK HOMOPHOBIA BECOMES THE SCAPEGOAT FOR ALL THE INSTITUTIONAL HOMOPHOBIA THAT IS THE ROOT CAUSE.

WE LOOK AT THE LEGAL HISTORY OF HOMOPHOBIA, THE FACT THAT QUEERNESS WAS DESIGNATED A MEDICAL ILLNESS UNTIL THE 1970'’S.

THOSE ARE THE UNDERLYING REASONS FOR HOMOPHOBIA BUT WHEN WE TURN OUR ATTENTION TO BLACK PEOPLE AS THE FLAG CARRIERS FOR HOMOPHOBIA, WE CAN MISS THE HISTORY.

THERE ARE REAL ISSUES IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY ABOUT HOMOPHOBIA.

SOME DEAL WITH EXPERIENCES WITH BLACK CHURCHES WHERE THERE IS A LONG-STANDING TRADITION FOR ALLOWANCE OF QUEERNESS FOR THE MUSIC DIRECTOR OR THE CHOIR BUT THE PULPIT IS NOT THAT ACCEPTING.

SOME MIXED MESSAGES FROM WITHIN THEIR FAMILY AND RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES.

ALSO, MORE BLATANT EXAMPLES OF HOMOPHOBIA AND TRANSPHOBIA.

JARED: FOR STUDENTS COMING OUT OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES, HOW ARE THEY SELECTING COLLEGES?

HOW ARE THEY TRYING TO CREATE THOSE COMMUNITIES DEFINED INCLUSIVITY?

DEAN JEFFRIES: I THOUGHT I WOULD HAVE HEARD MORE ABOUT STUDENTS LOOKING SPECIFICALLY FOR VISIBLE LGBTQ COMMUNITIES WHEN THEY WERE VISITING COLLEGES.

WHAT I HEARD WERE CONSIDERATIONS WERE THE SAME THAT WE MIGHT EXPECT FOR ANY STUDENT VISITING COLLEGE.

GEOGRAPHY, THE PRESTIGE OF THE SCHOOL, FINANCIAL AID THEY WERE BEING OFFERED.

THOSE FOR THE FIRST THREE THINGS THEY TALKED ABOUT BECAUSE THOSE OF THE REALITY OF A STUDENT MAKING A SELECTION.

WHEN THEY GOT TO CAMPUS, THEY WERE PICKING UP ON SUBTLE CUES, ESPECIALLY AROUND BLACK DIVERSITY.

IS THERE A RANGE OF BLACK FOLK HERE SO I CAN FIND MY OWN NICHE.

JARED: ONCE THEY GET THERE, YOU KNOW THIS WELL, WHERE ARE WE IN TERMS OF THE SUPPORT, IN TERMS OF THE INCLUSIVITY?

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS ONLY BEEN TALKED ABOUT PROBABLY LOUDLY OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS, MORE OPENLY OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS?

THAT IS NOT LONGTIME.

DEAN JEFFRIES: WHEN IT COMES TO INCLUSION WITH RESPECT TO LGBTQ+ STUDENTS, THIS WAS IN THE STUDIES, A LATE 20TH CENTURY PHENOMENON.

EVEN IF YOU WANT TO GO BACK 20 YEARS AND BE GENEROUS, THAT IS WHAT WE STARTED THINKING ABOUT THIS POPULATION.

WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO, ESPECIALLY BECOMES TO CLEAR BLACK -- QUEER BLACK FOLK AND QUEER PEOPLE OF COLOR.

THERE ARE NOT MANY ROLE MODELS PEOPLE CAN LOOK TO AND SAY I IMAGINE MYSELF BEING LIKE THEM WHEN I GRADUATE COLLEGE.

SECONDLY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT LGBTQ ORGANIZATIONS, THE LEADERSHIP AT MANY CAMPUSES I VISITED WERE COMPOSED OF WHITE STUDENTS.

IT IS NOT THAT THEY WERE INSENSITIVE OR OUTWARDLY RACIST, BUT THEY DID NOT OFTEN PRIORITIZE THE INTERSECTION OF RACISM AND HOMOPHOBIA OR RACISM AND TRANSPHOBIA WHEN SETTING THE AGENDA FOR THAT ORGANIZATION.

IF YOU ARE A QUEER BLACK STUDENT, YOU DO NOT FEEL LIKE YOUR WHOLE SELF IS BEING SPOKEN TO.

THERE IS A LONG WAY TO GO.

JARED: FINALLY, IF YOU WERE TO WRITE ABOUT YOUR BOOK -- YOU STARTED THE INTERVIEW TALKING ABOUT INTERVIEWING THE STUDENTS DURING THE TRUMP ERA, WAS SO MUCH HATE WAS BEING SPEWED, WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF OPTIMISM?

DEAN JEFFRIES: IT IS MIXED.

SOME STUDENTS TOLD ME WHAT A DISCOURAGING TIME IT HAD BEEN.

THEY TOLD ME THEY WERE LOSING FAITH IN THEIR NEIGHBORS.

AS YOU JUST SAID, WE WERE SEEING EXPRESSIONS OF REALLY TOXIC HATE JUST OUT IN THE OPEN, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE TERRORISM OF CHARLOTTESVILLE.

THERE WERE MANY STUDENTS WHO DID NOT KNOW WHERE WE WERE GOING OR HOW MUCH HELP THEY HAD LEFT.

BUT THERE WERE OTHERS WHO WERE TRYING TO LIVE BEYOND THE MOMENT AND LOOK AT THE LONG HISTORY OF THE STRUGGLE FOR NOT ONLY BLACK LIBERATION BUT LGBTQ LIBERATION IN THIS COUNTRY.

THEY LOOK AT THE HISTORY AND SAY IT HAS TO GET BETTER.

WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE AND THERE WILL BE MORE OF US IN THE FUTURE.

WHEN YOU THINK ABUT IT THAT WAY, THE FUTURE WAS VERY BRIGHT.

JARED: AS ALL THE HISTORIANS SAY, THEY CAN TALK ABOUT IT, TOO.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

THE BOOK IS "BLACK AND QUEER ON CAMPUS."

NEXT UP, BROADWAY HAS BARRELED INTO BOSTON WITH THE HIT MUSICAL, "INTO THE WOODS."

AFTER A WILDLY POPULAR SIX MONTH RUN IN NEW YORK, MUCH OF THE BROADWAY CAST DECIDED TO TAKE THIS SHOW ON THE ROAD FOR A NATIONAL TOUR.

THAT INCLUDES TONY AWARD WINNING ACTOR GAVIN CREEL, WHO WORKS DOUBLETIME IN THE SHOW AS BOTH A WOLF AND CINDERELLA'’S PRINTS.

"GREATER BOSTON ♪ ♪ >> YOU ARE EVERYTHING THEY COULD WISH MORE.

♪ THE GIRL MUST BE MAD ♪ JARED: GAVIN CREEL JOINS ME NOW.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

GAVIN: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I WILL NEVER GET USED TO WATCHING THAT, EVER.

[LAUGHTER] JARED: LET'’S TALK ABOUT WHAT HE HAS DONE WITH "INTO THE WOODS."

IT WAS SO CLEVER ABOUT TAKING SOMETHING WE ALL HAVE ACCESS TO, ALL OF THESE GREAT STORIES LIKE "JACK IN THE BEANSTALK" AND "LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD" BUT WHERE DOES HE TAKE US BEYOND THAT?

GAVIN: PEOPLE ASK, WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF THE SHOW?

I HAD TO SAY THEY TAKE SOMETHING WE ALL KNOW, PART OF HER HEARTBEAT, HOW WE GREW UP, HOW WE LEARNED HOW TO TREAT ONE ANOTHER THROUGH THESE FAIRYTALES AND THEY REMIND US THAT IT IS STILL LIFE'’S LESSONS IN OUR FACES, BUT THEY DO IT WITH A LITTLE BIT OF AN ADULT TWIST.

A LITTLE SPIN OF THE MUSTACHE IN REMINDING US THAT JACK WAS NOT THAT GOOD OF A KID.

HE WAS A LITTLE BIT OF A -- I CANNOT SAY IT WITHOUT USING A CURSE WORD -- HE WAS A LITTLE BIT OFF.

JARED: HE WAS A MURDERER.

GAVIN: HE WAS A MURDERER, A THIEF.

LITTLE RED IS RAVENOUS IN HIS OWN WAY AND I THINK THE WOLF WAS A VICTIM.

IT IS NEAT HOW THEY TOOK THESE STORIES AND MADE THEM INTO SOMETHING THAT REMINDED US THAT THEY ARE STILL APPLICABLE EVEN TO TODAY.

JARED: I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT PLAYING THE BOTH IN A MOMENT.

BUT FIRST, WE SOMEONE OF YOUR SONGS IN THE SHOW.

THE COMPLEXITY OF SINGING THAT WITH ALL THE WORDS, CONSONANTS ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND.

HE WAS SO MATHEMATICAL.

GAVIN: NO.

THE NUMBER OF TIMES I HAVE MIXED UP LYRICS, I AM EMBARRASSED TO SAY, IS MANY.

HE WRITES IN A WAY THAT MAKES YOU WANT TO REENGAGE EACH TIME YOU SING IT.

IT IS LIKE SHAKESPEARE.

THERE IS ALWAYS MORE YOU CAN FIND.

I HAVE BEEN DOING THE SHOW 250 TIMES AT THIS POINT AND HE STILL SURPRISES ME.

EACH AUDIENCE IS DIFFERENT.

EACH AUDIENCE IS THIS NEW DISCOVERY, WE ARE OPENING UP A GIFT EACH TIME AND I HAVE TO BE REMINDED TO DIG INTO THE WORDS BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF THEM.

THAT IS WHAT IS SO GREAT ABOUT THE PRODUCTION.

WE HAVE THE ENTIRE ORCHESTRA ON STAGE WITH US.

WE HAVE THIS ENTIRE BEAUTIFUL CAST THAT IS THERE MAKING THE WORDS SIT FRONT AND CENTER.

WE KEEP HEARING FROM PEOPLE, I CAN UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING YOU SAID AND I GOT THE SHOW IN THE WAY I NEVER UNDERSTOOD IT BEFORE.

IT IS PRETTY SPECIAL.

JARED: I COUNT MYSELF IN THAT CATEGORY.

GOING BACK TO YOU PLAYING THE WOLF.

ONE OF THE MENTAL CALISTHENICS INVOLVED IN PLAYING TWO VERY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS WITHIN 20 MINUTES ON STAGE?

GAVIN: IT IS PRETTY QUICK.

WE HAVE A QUICK CHANGE BETWEEN WHEN THE WOLF GOES TO HIS DEMISE -- I WILL NOT GIVE IT AWAY -- AND THEN I SWITCHED VERY QUICKLY INTO A FULL -- OBVIOUSLY MY HAIR IS BLUE IN REAL LIFE -- I HAD A COSTUME CHANGE.

SHOUTOUT TO SOPHIE AND ERICA, IT IS A TEAM EFFORT.

AS FAR AS CHARACTERS GO, I ENJOYED THE PHYSICAL APPROACH TO EVERY PART I PLAY AS AN ACTOR.

THE WOLF IS HUNCHED AND HUNGRY, AND THE PRINTS IS VERY UPRIGHT AND REGAL.

IT IS VERY FUN.

ANDREA DESIGNED TWO INCREDIBLE COSTUMES.

I PUT THE COSTUMES ON AND LET THEM DO THE WORK.

JARED: I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER PROJECT YOU'’RE WORKING ON.

IT IS CALLED "WALK ON THROUGH."

IN DISCOVERING ART FOR THE FIRST TIME AT THE METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART, THIS WAS SOMETHING YOU WERE ABLE TO WORK ON DURING THE PANDEMIC.

PERHAPS WE WILL SEE IT HERE IN BOSTON.

WHAT WAS THAT EXPERIENCE TO DISCOVER ART AT THE METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART IN NEW YORK?

GAVIN: I HAVE TO SAY IT IS IN THE SHOW BUT IT IS AN EMBARRASSING ADMISSION TO BE IN MY EARLY 40'’S AND HAVING NEVER STEP FOOT IN THE METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART.

I WAS NOT VERSED -- WELL-VERSED IN FINE ART AND ART EDUCATION I WAS APPROACHED TO POSSIBLY MAKE A PIECE OF THEATER IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE ART AT THE MUSEUM.

I LITERALLY JUST WENT IN AND STARTED WALKING AROUND AND TOOK NOTES.

I WENT, HUH, AND WOW.

OVER THREE YEARS I CREATED A PIECE THAT EXAMINES LIFE, ART, LOVE, LOSS AND LONELINESS THROUGH ABOUT 40 DIFFERENT PIECES OF ART IN THE MUSEUM.

I AM EXCITED TO SHARE IT WITH THE WORLD.

WE ARE HOPING TO HAVE PRODUCTION IN THE FALL IN NEW YORK AND EXPANDED FROM THERE AND HOPEFULLY BRINGING AROUND THE WORLD.

I AM EXCITED TO SHARE IT WITH EVERYONE.

JARED: DOES THAT EXPOSURE TO THE VISUAL ARTS CHANGE WHO YOU ARE AS A PERFORMING ARTIST?

GAVIN: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

YES, I THINK SO.

WHEN I WAS AN ACTING SCHOOL, THEY USED TO SAY GO TO A MUSEUM AND TRY TO FIND ART THE ESSENCE OF WHICH SPEAKS TO THE CHARACTER YOU WILL PLAY.

WE WOULD GO TO THE LIBRARY AND GO THROUGH PICTURES AND PHOTOGRAPHS AND TRY TO FIND THINGS THAT WOULD HELP BRING THE CHARACTER TO LIFE.

SINCE I SPENT SO MUCH TIME AT THE MET END HAD A LIFE-CHANGING EXPERIENCE THERE, I THINK I DO SEE ARTISTIC EXPRESSION KIND OF EVERYWHERE NOW.

IT IS LIKE THE MUSEUM -- I ALWAYS SAID THE SHOW "WALK ON THROUGH," THE MET TO THE WORLD IS LIKE ME ENCOUNTERING A MIDLIFE CRISIS.

WHERE DO I FIT?

THIS AMAZING CAREER AND UNBELIEVABLE LUCK BUT I DO NOT KNOW WHERE I FIT IN THE BUILDING.

.

IT IS LIKE MY LIFE.

I DO NOT KNOW WHERE I FIT.

I THOUGHT I HAD IT ALL FIGURED OUT.

THE HEALING NATURE OF ART, I SAW ALL THESE NAMES CROSSING SPANS OF TIME AND SAYING, I AM HERE, TOO, AND YOU WILL BE OK.

I FOUND IT VERY AFFIRMING.

JARED: IT IS REALLY SURPRISING TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT, ESPECIALLY AFTER YOU WON THE TONY.

ONE MIGHT HAVE ASSUMED YOU ALREADY MOVED TO THE HEIGHT OF YOUR CAREER.

THAT WAS JUST A WAY FOR ME TO SEGUE TO ASK IF THAT MAILER IS -- BETTE MIDLER IS THE MOST DIVINE?

GAVIN: THE HARDEST WORKING, THE -- WANTING TO MAKE THINGS BETTER.

WANTING TO DIG DEEPER.

SHE NEVER DID I SHOW THE SAME WAY TWICE.

SHE WOULD FIND A BIG LAUGH AND THE NEXT NIGHT DO IT COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TO SEE WHAT ELSE HE COULD FIND.

I LOVE WORKING WITH HER JARED: GAVIN CREEL, IT IS SAVVY LIST TO WATCH YOU IN THE SHOW.

CONGRATULATIONS.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

GAVIN: MY PLEASURE.

JARED: "INTO THE WOODS" IS RUNNING THROUGH SUNDAY.

FOR MORE INFORMATION, GO ONLINE.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE WILL BE BACK TOMORROW.

I AM JARED BOWEN.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

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