♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> FOR GAZA, ANOTHER DAY IN HELL.

THE U.S. NOW JOINS EMERGENCY AIR DROPS OF FOOD.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SKIPS CEASE-FIRE TALKS.

AND THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARAK JOINS ME.

>> IT IS CRUCIAL FOR THAT AID TO BE SENT TO GAZA.

THERE'S NO EXCUSE WHY IT IS STILL IN OUR WAREHOUSE.

>> CORRESPONDENT NIMA EL BAGIR WITH AN INVESTIGATION.

>>> AND WE CONSIDER THE SUPREME COURT RULING DENYING THE COLORADO CASE AND SAYING THAT NO STATE HAS THE RIGHT TO BAN TRUMP FROM ANY BALLOT.

>>> PLUS -- >> WE INCARCERATE WAY TOO MANY PEOPLE FOR WAY TOO LONG.

>> A WALL IS JUST A WALL.

HISTORIAN REIKO HILLYER TELLS US HOW THE PRISON SYSTEM HAS TIGHTENED OVER A CENTURY.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

DESPERATION IN GAZA SHOWS NO SIGNS OF ABATING.

IN ONE OF ITS MAIN CEMETERIES, THERE'S NO MORE SPACE TO BURY THE DEAD, ACCORDING TO ITS CARETAKER.

A PALESTINIAN AMERICAN DOCTOR IN RAFAH SAYS THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS, QUOTE, COMPLETELY DESTROYED.

THIS, AS ISRAEL REFUSES TO SEND A DELEGATION TO THE CEASE-FIRE TALKS IN CAIRO.

MEANWHILE, THE ISRAELI OPPOSITION LEADER, BENNY GANTZ, HAS FLOWN TO WASHINGTON FOR MEETINGS WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT AT THE WHITE HOUSE, AS WELL AS OTHER SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS.

GANTZ IS ALSO A MEMBER OF NETANYAHU'S WAR CABINET.

HERE TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS IS FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARAK.

HE'S BEEN A PROMINENT CRITIC OF THE GOVERNMENT'S HANDLING OF THIS WAR, AND RECENTLY, HE'S CALLED FOR EARLY GENERAL ELECTIONS IN ISRAEL.

HE'S JOINING ME FROM TEL AVIV.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM, PRIME MINISTER.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO, I WANT TO JUST GET FROM YOU A SENSE OF WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOURGREATEST ALLY WAS FORCED TO AIR-DROP PALETTES OF WHATEVER, MILITARY RATIONS, ONLY 38,000, BECAUSE THE GREATEST ALLY, ISRAEL, REFUSES TO ALLOW THE PROPER ENTRY OF AID TO GAZA.

WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND, AS YOU SAW THIS COME TO THIS?

>> IT'S A PICTURE THAT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED TO START WITH, BUT IT HAPPENED.

IT WAS MUCH MORE PAINFUL EVENT ON THE GROUND THE DAY BEFORE.

SO, I THINK THAT WE SHOULD MAKE SURE THAT THE MISTAKES THAT WERE DONE A FEW DAYS AGO DURING THE EVENT THAT LED TO THE LOSS OF LIVES OF 100 PEOPLE.

PROBABLY NOT FROM ISRAELI FIRE, BUT ANYHOW, WE ARE THE ONLY FORCE THERE, SO, WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO LET FOOD AND -- ESPECIALLY FOOD AND OTHER NEEDS, MEDICAL NEEDS AND WHATEVER COMING INTO THE GAZA STRIP ON THE GROUND, NOT -- NOT THROUGH THE AIR.

IT'S TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE, YOU CANNOT PROVIDE EVEN 300,000 PEOPLE IN THE NORTHERN PART OF GAZA FROM THE AIR.

IT SHOULD COME FROM THE GROUND, AND SO ISRAEL.

>> SO, LOOK, WAIT TO ASK YOU, YOU ARE ALSO NOT JUST A FORMER PRIME MINISTER, A FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY, A FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE ARMY, I MEAN, YOU'VE HELD VERY IMPORTANT POSITIONS, SO WOULD YOU AGREE, BECAUSE THIS IS WHY WE'RE AT THIS POINT, THE CURRENT DEFENSE MINISTER ON OCTOBER 9th SAID, I HAVE ORDERED A COMPLETE SIEGE ON THE GAZA STRIP.

FOOD, NO FUEL.

EVERYTHING IS CLOSED.

IS THAT THE WAY YOU WOULD HAVE WAGED A WAR, EVEN AGAINST YOUR MOST VICIOUS ENEMIES?

>> LOOK, IT -- I BELIEVE THAT HE STATED IT MANY WEEKS AGO, PROBABLY MONTHS AGO.

>> YES, BUT IT'S STILL HAPPENING.

>> NO, NO, IT'S NOT STILL HAPPENING.

IT'S -- NOW THERE IS CERTAIN FLOW OF PRODUCTS INTO GAZA STRIP, BASICALLY, IT'S KIND OF TAKEN -- SOME OF IT TAKEN BHA HAS, SOME OF IT TAKEN AND TRADED.

IT'S SHORT OF BEING PERFECT.

IT SHOULD BE ENLARGED, PROBABLY SIGNIFICANTLY, IT COULD ENTER THROUGH EGYPT FOR THE SOUTHERN PART, BUT HAS TO GO THROUGH ISRAEL TO THE NORTHERN PART, AND WE HAVE TO CORRECT IT AND MAKE IT CLEAR THAT WE WILL NOT LET HUMANITARIAN DISASTER DEVELOP IN THE GAZA WHEN WE ARE DE FACTO CONTROLLING MOST OF IT.

>> WELL, EXACTLY.

AND AGAIN, YOU GENERALLY DROP AIR-DROPS INTO HOSTILE STATES, NOT INTO STATES CONTROLLED BY YOUR BEST ALLIES.

SO, THIS IS JUST UNBELIEVABLE.

AND ALSO, AS YOU KNOW, IT'S EXPENSIVE AND INEFFICIENT, SO, ALL OF THIS IS LEADING TO A -- A VERY, VERY MARKED LOSS OF PRESTIGE, LOSS OF ACCEPTANCE, LOSS OF -- OF WHATEVER, PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, FOR ISRAEL.

RIGHT NOW, BENNY GANTZ IS ON HIS WAY TO THE UNITED STATES TO MEET WITH THE WHITE HOUSE.

THIS IS WHAT KAMALA HARRIS SAID OVER THE WEEKEND.

>> THE THREAT OF HAMAS POSES TO THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL MUST BE ELIMINATED, AND GIVEN THE IMMENSE SCALE OF SUFFERING IN GAZA, THERE MUST BE AN IMMEDIATE CEASE-FIRE.

FOR AT LEAST THE NEXT SIX WEEKS -- >> SO, SHE ADDED, THERE MUST BE AN IMMEDIATE CEASE-FIRE FOR AT LEAST THE NEXT SIX WEEKS.

YOUR GOVERNMENT, OR, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, HAS REFUSED TO SEND PEOPLE TO THE CURRENT TALKS.

TO YOU KNOW WHY, AND WHERE DO YOU THINK ANY CEASE-FIRE IS HEADED?

>> LOOK, I SEE THE CEASE-FIRE IS TIGHTLY CONNECTED TO THE NEED TO HAVING THE HOSTAGES RELEASED, AND I DON'T KNOW ALL THE DETAILS OF THIS -- THE TALKS, WHAT EXACTLY IS EXCHANGED, SO, I CANNOT MAKE YOU A KIND OF CLEAR AND KIND OF FIRM COMMITMENT ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON.

I KNOW WHAT WE HAVE TO DO.

BECAUSE UNTIL NOW, IN SPITE OF THE IMPRESSIVE, SIGNIFICANT ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE IDF, THE FULL REACHING OF THE OBJECTIVE TO MAKE SURE HAMAS DOESN'T -- CANNOT IN ISRAEL AND GAZA, IS STILL PROBABLY MANY MONTHS.

SO, THAT'S THE TIME TO RELEASE THE HOSTAGES AND TO DO WHATEVER COULD BE DONE.

I CANNOT DIVE INTO DETAILS, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW.

IT'S THE COMMITMENT, MORE COMMITMENT, FORMAL COMMITMENT, THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW HOSTAGES, WERE ABANDONED, WERE DESERTED BY OUR OWN GOVERNMENT, AND WE CANNOT SACRIFICE THEM FOR WHATEVER OBJECTIVE, SO IT'S CLEAR TO ME THAT THE HOSTAGE ISSUE IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN GETTING RID OF HAMAS, BUT IT'S CLEARLY MORE URGENT, IF WE WAIT ANOTHER FEW MONTHS BEFORE THE MILITARY OBJECTIVES ARE ACHIEVED, THEY PROBABLY WILL BE BROUGHT BACK IN COFFINS, AND THAT'S NOT OUR -- SO, WE SHOULD SHOW CERTAIN FLEXIBILITY AND READINESS TO GO AND LISTEN AND TO BE READY.

IT WOULD NOT ACHIEVE WITHOUT CERTAIN COMPROMISES FROM BOTH SIDES, AND THERE IS HEAVY FEELING THAT PROBABLY IN OUR GOVERNMENT, THE MAN AT THE TOP, FOR SURE, HE WANTS TO SEE THEM RELEASED, BUT HE HAS A PERSONAL NECESSITY TO APPEAL BEING STRONG SURROUNDED BY SOFTER PEOPLE LIKE THE HEADS OF THE SECRET SERVICE OF THE ARMY, AND IN REGARD TO ACHIEVE THIS PICTURE THAT HE WAS THE ONE WHO BY HIS TOUGHER POSITION TWISTED THE ARM OF HAMAS, HE'S READY TO RISK THE VERY ACHIEVEMENT OF A DEAL.

AND INDIRECTLY, THE FATE OF THE HOSTAGES AND THAT'S WHAT I -- I DON'T LIKE, ABOUT OUR BEHAVIOR.

I THINK WE SHOULD BE EVEN MORE FLEXIBLE IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE A DEAL.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S QUITE A CLEAR POINT, AND QUITE, YOU KNOW, A CLEAR CRITICISM OF THIS CURRENT PRIME MINISTER.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE, AND WHY DO YOU THINK, BENNY GANTZ IS GOING TO MEET WITH TOP U.S. OFFICIALS AT THE WHITE HOUSE?

NETANYAHU DID NOT WANT HIM TO GO, HE'S APPARENTLY, ACCORDING TO PRESS REPORTS, TOLD THE AMBASSADOR IN WASHINGTON NOT TO, YOU KNOW, FACILITATE OR ATTEND ANY OF THESE MEETINGS WITH GANTZ.

WHAT DO YOU THINK COULD BE UNDER WAY?

>> LOOK, RELATIONSHIP, INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES IS CRITICAL FOR THE VERY FEASIBILITY OF ISRAEL TO ACHIEVE A COMPLETE THIS MISSION.

WE RELY UPON THE UNITED STATES FOR MUNITIONS TO OUR TANKS, ARTILLERY, EVEN THE INTERCEPTORS OF IRON DOME.

WE DEPENDENT UPON THE UNITED STATES TO BACK US FINANCIALLY.

WE DEPEND UPON THEM TO DETER IT FROM SPREADING INTO A REGIONAL WAR OF ATTRITION, OR EVEN A FULL-SCALE WAR BACKED BY IRAN, AND PROBABLY BEHIND THEM RUSSIA, WITHIN THE AXIS OF ROGUE STATE.

WE ARE DEPENDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IN A DECISION IN THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL.

AND WE EVEN NEED THEM IN THE FUTURE TO HELP US TO TAKE ON THE CHALLENGE OF THE CRIMINAL COURT IN THE HAGUE.

SO, WE CANNOT WIN A REGIONAL WAR WITHOUT HAVING AMERICAN OUTSIDE, SO, IT IS CRITICAL TO COORDINATE.

NOW, FOR REASONS THAT I CANNOT EXPLAIN, NETANYAHU DID NOT ALLOW THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE, WHO IS THE NATURAL MEMBER OF CABINET TO GO TO THE UNITED STATES, TO ORGANIZE WITH THE PENTAGON, THE AMERICANS, I CANNOT UNDERSTAND.

SO GANTZ TOOK THE CHALLENGE AND HE'S GOING THERE.

HE'S WELL-KNOWN THERE, HE WAS MINISTER OF DEFENSE, HE WAS HEAD OF THE IDF, HE KNOWS THE PEOPLE, THEY KNOW HIM, THEY APPRECIATE HIM, THEY EXPECT TO HEAR FROM HIM DIRECT AND HONEST REPORT OF THE SITUATION.

>> SO, MR. -- >> MORE SHOULD BE DONE.

>> YOU ARE SAYING WHAT SHOULD BE DONE, GANTZ IS DOING IT, NETANYAHU DOESN'T WANT HIM TO DO IT.

NETANYAHU HAS BEEN BASICALLY BEEN THUMBING HIS NOSE AT PRESIDENT BIDEN.

SAYS ONE THING IN ENGLISH, SAYS ANOTHER HINGE IN HEBREW TO HIS FAR-RIGHT COALITION PEOPLE, AND ESPECIALLY, HE'S SAYING NO TO A POST-WAR PLAN THAT THE AMERICANS WANT AND THAT MOST ALLIES WANT, AND -- WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

THERE SEEMS TO BE NO STRATEGY, MAYBE TACTICS GOING IN A CERTAIN WAY, BUT THERE'S NO STRATEGY FOR AFTERWARDS.

NOT EVEN FOR AID DELIVERY, AS WE SAW LAST WEEK.

>> IT'S ANOTHER GRAVE MISTAKE.

I SEE THE FOLLOWING SITUATION.

THE 7th OF OCTOBER WAS THE WORST BLUNDER IN THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY.

SINCE THEN, WE HAVE THE LONGEST WAR SINCE THE ESTABLISHMENT IN 1948, AND AS IED EARLIER, THE MILITARY TASK IS STILL MONTHS DOWN THE STREAM, AND THERE IS BY NOW A CHOICE TO BE MADE.

ARE WE SAYING, YES, BUT -- TO BIDEN PROPOSAL, OR ARE WE GOING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION, GOING TOGETHER WITH THE MINISTERS THAT SEEMS TO DICTATE TO NETANYAHU, HIS BEHAVIOR.

AND IT'S A CRITICAL CHOICE.

NETANYAHU TOTALLY LOST ANY DROP OF SUPPORT IN THE PUBLIC, 4 OUT OF 5 ISRAELIS SEE HIM AS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BLUNDER ON OCTOBER 7th.

3 OUT OF 4 WANT HIM TO RESIGN.

SO, I THINK THAT INSTEAD OF ALL THIS MANIPULATION THAT ARE BASICALLY AIMED AT SURVIVAL OF NETANYAHU IN POWER, THE COUNTRY SHOULD GO TO ELECTION AND DECIDE, MAKE A DECISION.

AND IT'S NOT ANYONE BUT BIBI.

BIBI CAN'T RUN IN THIS ELECTION, IF HE WINS, WHICH HE CANNOT, BUT IF HE WINS, HE WILL LEAD THE COUNTRY.

BUT IT IS RISKING OUR NATIONAL SECURITY TO SEE NETANYAHU KEEP LEADING THIS WAR.

ANOTHER FORMER COMMANDER OF THE IDF, WHO IS NOW MEMBER OF THE WAR CABINET, SAID IN A LETTER TO OTHER MEMBERS OF CABINET, NO STRATEGIC DECISION HAS BEEN MADE IN THE LAST THREE MONTHS.

WE ARE ALL PLAYING WITH TACTICS, AND WE ARE RISKING BOTH THE POSTURE OF ISRAEL IN THE REGION, IN THE WORLD, BUT ALSO WE ARE RISKING THE VERY ACHIEVEMENT, ALL THAT HAS BEEN ACHIEVED BY THE IDF, BECAUSE OF THIS PARALYZING INABILITY TO TAKE DECISION AND MOVE AND THINK THE DAY AFTER.

I PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE DAY AFTER SHOULD HAVE BEEN DISCUSSED FOUR MONTHS AGO, IN THE FIRST OR SECOND WEEK.

AND DISCUSSED PUBLICLY.

THERE IS NO WAY -- IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHICH PORT YOU WANT TO REACH, NO WIND WILL TAKE YOU THERE.

>> WELL, IN THAT -- >> WAR CANNOT BE WON IF THE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP CANNOT TELL -- DIRECT THE ARMED FORCES, WHAT IS THE VISION FOR THE MORNING AFTER?

>> AND IN THE MEANTIME -- >> THERE IS NO BETTER -- >> AT AN ENORMOUS COST THAT IS 30,000 DEAD, AT LEAST 70% OF THOSE ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

EVEN BY THE CALCULATIONS OF THE IDF, WHO SAY THEY MAY HAVE GOT 10,000 HAMAS PEOPLE, SO -- YOU'VE CALLED FOR ELECTION.

HOW -- HOW?

WHAT IS THE PROCESS?

BECAUSE HE'S -- HE'S GOT, YOU KNOW, HE'S GOT TIME ON HIS TERM, NETANYAHU WHAT IS THE PROCESS?

YOU SAY BY JUNE OF THIS YEAR.

>> LOOK, THE PROCESS ALWAYS ENDS UP, THE FINAL KICK INTO ELECTION IS A POLITICAL PROCESS BY CERTAIN PROTOCOL OF THE KNESSET, I THINK CAN COME FROM SEVERAL DIRECTION.

IT CAN BE THE RESULT OF THOSE EXTREMIST FANATICS, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, THEY MIGHT FEEL THAT NETANYAHU IS MOVING SLOWLY TOWARD ACCEPTING THE BIDEN PROPOSAL, THEY MIGHT LEAVE THE GOVERNMENT.

AND IT WILL TOPPLE THE GOVERNMENT.

THAT'S WHY HE DOESN'T DO IT.

THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THAT THE ULTRA ORTHODOX PARTY, WHO ARE NOW FIGHTING FOR A LAW, TWO LAWS, ONE THAT THEY WILL RELEASE THEM FROM SERVING IN THE ARMY, IN THE MIDDLE OF WAR, WHICH IS CRAZY, BUT IT HAPPENED, AND THE OTHER LAW, THAT BLOCKS THE SUPREME COURT FROM INTERVEING IN THE FIRST LAW.

SO, THIS IS A CRAZY LEGISLATION, THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE ANOUNGS ANNOUNCED PUBLICLY THAT HE WILL NOT PROPOSE THIS LAW, DURING A WAR WHERE NETANYAHU LOOKS FOR OTHER TRICKS TO PASS THIS LAW.

SO, IT CAN LEAD TO COLLAPSE OF THE GOVERNMENT, AND THERE IS POSSIBILITY THAT SOME OF HIS MORE MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY WILL REALIZE THAT THE KEY IS THAT HE DOESN'T DO ANYTHING AND THAT THEY WILL DECIDE TO VOTE >> OKAY.

>> I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE OF THEM HAPPEN.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> WHAT I NEED TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, WHAT I MISS IS THE POSITION OF OUR OPPOSITION WITHIN THE CABINET.

I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT IF GANTZ, WHO IS NOW IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THE OTHER TWO GENERALS THAT JOINED THE CABINET, THE WAR CABINET, IF THEY WOULD TELL TO THE PEOPLE, SAY, WE ARE STAYING IN THIS WAR CABINET BECAUSE IT'S EMERGENCY AND WE DO NOT RELY ON NETANYAHU TO GET RESPONSIBLE DECISION, BUT WE CALL UPON EVERY MEMBER OF KNESSET, EVERY MEMBER OF A PARTY, THE PUBLIC, EVERY CITIZEN, THE HEADS OF THE UNIONS, THE HEADS OF THE JUDICIAL GUILD, THE HEADS OF THE HIGH TECH, THE HEADS OF THE INDUSTRY, THE TEACHERS AND WORKERS AND YOUTH MOVEMENT AND WHOEVER IN THE COUNTRY, TO DO EACH ONE AND EVERY ONE, TOGETHER, WHATEVER WE CAN IN ORDER TO BRING ABOUT THOSE ELECTIONS.

>> OKAY.

>> BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

>> WELL, THAT'S A SOBERING THOUGHT, BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

EHUD BARAK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW, THE THREAT OF AN ISRAELI INCURSION INTO RAFAH STILL LOOMS LARGE, AND MY NEXT GUEST LIVES THERE, AFTER BEING DISPLACED THREE TIMES FROM HER HOME IN GAZA CITY.

DAIANA AL BUKHARI NOW TELLS US WHAT LIFE IS LIKE IN GAZA.

DAIANA, TELL ME WHAT -- WHAT DAILY FOOD AND WATER IS TO YOU?

WHAT ACCESS DO YOU HAVE?

>> ACTUALLY, IT'S A STRUGGLE TO ME.

I WAKE UP EVERY DAY, I JUST THINK HOW I WOULD GET WATER, OR FOOD.

I HAVE TO GET IN LINE TO GET SOME FOOD AND WATER.

BUT IT'S NOT HEALTHY, WE USE THE SAME WATER TO DRINK, TO SHOWER, TO WASH THE DISHES, AND EVERYTHING.

SO, THE WATER, IT'S NOT HEALTHY.

>> I'M GOING TO PLAY A LITTLE VIDEO FROM SOMETHING YOU HAVE RECORDED, BECAUSE YOU HAVE FOLLOWERS AND YOU'RE POSTING YOUR DAILY LIFE, SO, I'M GOING TO PLAY THIS LITTLE VIDEO NOW.

>> HI, IT'S DAIANA FROM GAZA.

I WANT TO SHOW YOU WHERE I EVACUATED WITH MY FAMILY.

WE SHARE WITH MANY FAMILIES, SO, WE HAVE ONLY THIS SMALL SPACE.

AND YOU MIGHT ASK ME WHY WE ARRANGED THE TABLES THIS WAY -- ACTUALLY, IT'S MY MOM'S IDEA.

SHE THINKS WHEN WE PUT OUR HEADS THIS WAY, PROTECT US FROM ANY BOMBINGS OR ANY AIR STRIKES.

>> WOW.

SO, YOU'RE TELLING PEOPLE THAT NOT ONLY DO YOU NOT HAVE ENOUGH TO EAT AND DRINK, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE BOMBINGS AND THE DRONES OVERHEAD.

HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED THAT?

WHAT IS IT LIKE WHEN YOUR ENVIRONMENT IS -- IS BOMBED?

>> IT'S SO SCARY, YOU KNOW, I'M 23 YEARS OLD, AND I LIVE ALL THAT, IT'S OKAY ABOUT ME.

WHAT ABOUT THE LITTLE CHILDREN?

JUST THINK ABOUT THEM.

THINK HOW IF YOUR CHILD WERE UNDER THESE BOMBS, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

THEY ARE HUMAN, THEY ARE JUST A CHILD, WE ARE HUMANS, WE DESERVE PEACE.

>> DAIANA, TELL ME HOW THE CHILDREN AND THE YOUNGER PEOPLE IN YOUR FAMILY GROUP REACT.

>> I THINK ALL OF US HAVE TRAUMA.

WE ALL HAVE TRAUMA.

THEY ARE AFRAID ALL THE TIME.

THEY ARE CHECKING, LIKE THIS ALL THE TIME.

WE ALL HAVE TRAUMA NOW.

>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING VERY BASIC?

>> WE JUST TRY TO SURVIVE.

>> YES.

LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING JUST AS BASIC.

HOW DO YOU GO TO THE BATHROOM?

HOW DO YOU HAVE PLACES, ESPECIALLY WOMEN, WHO NEED FEMININE HYGIENE, WHO NEED, YOU KNOW, PROPER SANITATION, WHO CAN'T GO OUT TO THE BACK OF A TENT AND JUST, YOU KNOW, PEE LIKE MEN DO.

HOW DO YOU TAKE CARE OF THOSE NEEDS?

>> YES.

ACTUALLY, YOU ASKED ME ABOUT ALL THE STRUGGLES.

I JUST FIGURED OUT THAT ALL MY LIFE IS A STRUGGLE RIGHT NOW.

I HAVE TO WAIT TO USE THE BATHROOM.

I HAVE TO WAIT FOR HOURS TO TAKE A SHOWER.

IT'S NOT ALWAYS AVAILABLE, SO, I TRY TO FIND WHATEVER I CAN FIND TO USE IT.

IT'S ALL THE GIRLS HERE.

>> AND HOW -- HOW MANY MEALS A DAY DO YOU EAT?

AS BAD AS IT IS IN THE NORTH, WHAT DO YOU EAT?

AND HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE YOU LIVING WITH IN YOUR SPACE?

>> ACTUALLY, I AM LUCKY IF I GOT, LIKE, TWO MEALS A DAY.

I TRY JUST TO -- TO EAT ONE MEAL, SO WE CAN HAVE FOOD FOR THE OTHER DAY.

I SHARE THE SPACE WITH MANY FAMILIES, LIKE -- TEN FAMILIES, I THINK.

>> AND WHAT IS IT LIKE WHEN YOU CAN'T COMMUNICATE, NOT JUST TO PEOPLE LIKE ME, BUT PEOPLE, YOUR NEIGHBORS, PEOPLE WHO MAY STILL BE IN GAZA CITY WHO YOU KNOW, PEOPLE IN THE NORTH?

>> THERE'S NO ANSWER.

MOST OF THEM DON'T HAVE ELECTRICITY OR SOLAR POWER, SO, THEY CAN'T CONTACT.

SO, I HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THEM.

I HAVE NOTHING TO KNOW ABOUT THEM.

>> AND DAIANA, ARE YOU AND YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS AND THE PEOPLE YOU'RE WITH IN RAFAH, ARE THEY AFRAID OF A GROUND OFFENSIVE OR SOME KIND OF MASSIVE OFFENSIVE, ISRAELI OFFENSIVE ON RAFAH?

>> ACTUALLY, WE ARE ALL VERY SCARED.

MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE WILL BE KILLED.

NO ONE WANTS MORE FIGHTING.

WE ARE PRAYING FOR PEACE.

WE MUST TAKE ACTION TO PREVENT A MASSACRE IN RAFAH.

IF IT HAPPENS, IT WILL BE A MODERN CENTURY MASSACRE IN RAFAH.

WE HAVE SEEN A GROUND INVASION, THAT WOULD MEAN DEATH AND SUFFERING OF THOUSANDS.

THERE ARE INNOCENT PEOPLE.

IMAGINE AN ARMY ATTACKING -- IMAGINE YOU ARE A CHILD WITH NO PARENTS IN RAFAH.

YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE CHILD LOST OF PARENTS.

WHO WILL KEEP PEACE?

THE WORLD LEADERS MUST PROTECT US, CHRISTIANE.

YOU KNOW, THIS WAR, THIS GENOCIDE, SHOWED US HOW THE PEOPLE ARE, HOW THE LEADERS ARE.

IT SHOWS US THE TRUTH, CHRISTIANE.

>> DAIANA, THANK YOU VERY, VERY MUCH, AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO PURSUE YOUR STORIES.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

GOOD LUCK TO YOU.

STAY SAFE.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

>> SO, A DESPERATE DIARY FROM INSIDE GAZA AND RAFAH, WHICH, RIGHT NOW, IS ONE OF THE BETTER PLACES TO BE.

AT LEAST FOR NOW.

>>> AND NOW, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT EFFORTS TO ADDRESS THE DESPERATE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION INSIDE THE WHOLE STRIP, AS WE'VE DISCUSSED, THE UNITED STATES HAS JOINED SEVERAL OTHER NATIONS AIR-DROPPING AID, AS A GROWING NUMBER OF CHILDREN ARE DYING FROM DEHYDRATION AND MALNUTRITION, ACCORDING TO THE PALESTINIAN HEALTH MINISTRY.

AIR-DROPS ARE PROBABLY THE LEAST EFFICIENT AND MOST EXPENSIVE WAY TO DELIVER AID, BUT IT'S A LAST RESORT, WITH ISRAEL BLOCKING CRITICAL SUPPLIES ON THE GROUND, AS NIMA ELBAGIR REPORTS FROM JORDAN.

>> Reporter: THIS IS A JOR DANE FAN FLIGHT WITH MORE COUNTRIES LOOKING TO JOIN THE AID EFFORT.

AMONG THEM, THE U.S.

BUT THIS ISN'T A GOOD NEWS STORY.

ON THE GROUND, A GLIMPSE OF HOW MUCH MORE IS NEEDED TO KEEP STARVING GAZANS FROM FALLING INTO FAMINE.

AIR-DROPS ARE INEFFICIENT AND EXPENSIVE.

YOU JUST CAN'T DROP ENOUGH FOOD FOR A STARVING POPULATION.

TO STAVE OFF FAMINE, YOU NEED THOUSANDS OF TRUCKS, FILLED WITH FOOD, FLOODING INTO GAZA.

BUT THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.

WE WERE GRANTED RARE ACCESS TO THIS WAREHOUSE IN JORDAN.

ONE OF THE KEY WAYPOINTS FOR AID NOW A CHOKEPOINT.

ALL OF THE AID THAT YOU SEE HERE IS SORELY NEEDED IN GAZA, BUT IT'S STILL WAITING FOR CLEARANCE.

WHY?

WELL, CNN SPOKE TO DOZENS OF HUMANITARIAN WORKERS AND DONOR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHO DETAIL ARBITRARY ISRAELI RESTRICTION ON AID, OFTEN WITH LITTLE TO NO EXPLANATION, IMPEDING A MULTIBILLION DLAR HUMANITARIAN EFFORT, EVEN AS GAZANS ARE DESPERATE TO RECEIVE IT.

ABOUT 1,000 TRUCKS WORTH OF ESSENTIAL MEDICAL AID AND FOOD SUPPLIES MEANT FOR GAZA COLLECTING DUST, WAITING TO BE CLEARED BY ISRAELI OFFICIALS.

I MEAN, THESE ARE BABY WIPES.

>> YES.

>> WHY ARE YOU STILL WAITING FOR PERMISSION ON BABY WIPES?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

>> YOU HAVE BANDAGES -- >> YES.

>> WE'RE COMING UP OVER HERE, YOU HAVE WHEELCHAIRS, CRUTCHES, IN THAT KIND OF WAR SITUATION, THESE ARE REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS FOR PEOPLE, MEDICINES, VITAMIN C OVER HERE.

>> YES, YES.

AND THIS IS WHAT WE THINK, WHAT WE BELIEVE IT IS CRUCIAL NEED THAT NEED TO BE SENT IMMEDIATELY TO GAZA.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE WHY IT IS STILL IN OUR WAREHOUSE.

>> IT'S NOT JUST HERE THAT THEY'RE CONFUSED.

PREVIOUSLY ISRAEL HAS SAID IT IS RESTRICTING MILITARY USE ITEMS.

AND PROVIDED A LIST.

NOW, HUMANITARIANS TELL CNN THEY HAVE NOT RECEIVED AN UPDATE, SO, THEY'RE RELYING ON GUESSWORK.

CNN HAS OBTAINED DOCUMENTS FROM THREE MAJOR PARTICIPANTS IN THE HUMANITARIAN OPERATION.

A GHOST LIST, COMPILED BY ORGANIZATIONS PIECING TOGETHER THE MOST FREQUENTLY REJECTED ITEMS.

AMONG THEM, ANESTHESIA, CRUTCHES, GENERATORS, WATER PURIFICATION TABLETS AND FILTRATION SYSTEMS, SOLAR PANELS, VENTILATORS, TENT POLES, X-RAY MACHINES, AND OXYGEN CYLINDERS.

PUBLICLY, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AGENCY CLAIMS THAT IT HAS ABIDED BY A 2008 BANNED ITEMS LIST.

IN PRIVATE, THEY HAVE SAID THAT THAT DOCUMENT IS OBSOLETE.

ACCORDING TO A HUMANITARIAN OFFICIAL, IN DIRECT CONTACT WITH THE ISRAELI UNIT.

THE HUMAN COST OF MISCALCULATING IS IMMEASURABLE.

FOR MONTHS NOW, EVEN ONE REJECTED ITEM MEANS TRUCKS LIKE THESE FILLED WITH AID CAN BE TURNED BACK EVEN AFTER WAITING FOR DAYS TO GET INTO GAZA.

AND ON THE GROUND, THE REALITY IS THAT WITHOUT THESE CRITICAL SUPPLIES, PEOPLE LIKE THIS DOCTOR, A RENOWNED WAR SURGEON, ARE WORKING IN CONDITIONS EVEN HE HAS NEVER SEEN.

>> BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY ANTI-SEPTIC, I MADE A SOLUTION OF WASHING UP LIQUID AND VINEGAR.

AND SOME SALINE.

AND SO, I WOULD HAVE TO POUR THAT OVER THE WOUND, AND THEN SCRUB THE WOUND DOWN.

IT'S PROBABLY THE MOST -- THE DARKEST MOMENT OF MY LIFE.

BECAUSE YOU'RE DOING IT, THE PATIENT IS SCREAMING, THE CHILD IS SCREAMING, KNOWING THAT IF YOU HADN'T, THAT CHILD WOULD BE DEAD BY THE END OF THE DAY.

>> THE DOCTOR'S EXPERIENCE IN GAZA IS NOT UNIQUE.

WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE HERE IS VERY DISTURBING.

WITH VERY LITTLE BASIC MEDICINE, DOCTORS ARE MAKING DECISIONS THEY NEVER THOUGHT THEY WOULD HAVE TO MAKE.

THIS MAN TURNED HIS KITCHEN INTO AN OPERATING THEATER TO SAVE HIS NIECE'S LIFE, AFTER SHE SAYS SHE WAS HIT BY AN ISRAELI TANK.

HE AMPUTATED HER LEG WITH A KITCHEN KNIFE, WITHOUT ANESTHETIC.

SHE SURVIVED.

AT JUST 18, SHE HAS ALREADY EXPERIENCED ENOUGH PAIN FOR A LIFETIME.

WHEN AID DOES COME INTO GAZA, THOUSANDS GATHER, CLAMORING ONTO THE TRUCKS, EVEN AS ISRAELI GUNFIRE RINGS OUT.

TORN BETWEEN FEAR AND HUNGER, OVER 100 KILLS AND HUNDREDS MORE INJURED, YET YOU CAN SEE HERE, PEOPLE STILL CLINGING TO WHAT LITTLE THEY MANAGE TO GET.

THE ISRAELI ARMY SAYS IT'S NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENED HERE.

BUT AS OUR INVESTIGATION SHOWS, AT THE VERY LEAST, ISRAEL CREATED THE CONDITIONS FOR THIS TRAGEDY.

>>> NEXT, TO THE UNITED STATES, WHERE THE SUPREME COURT HAS SIDED WITH FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, UNANIMOUSLY RULING TO KEEP HIM ON THE COLORADO PRIMARY BALLOT AND REVERSING THE STATE DECISION TO DISQUALIFY HIM BECAUSE OF THE CONDUCT ON JANUARY 6th.

SO, LET'S GET A QUICK UPDATE ON WHAT'S GOING ON WITH "NEW YORKER" STAFF WRITER SUSAN GLASSER.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SUSAN, POLITICO BASICALLY SAYS SCOTUS DELIVERS TRUMP ANOTHER VICTORY.

IS -- HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THAT HEADLINE?

>> WELL, LOOK, IT'S A LITTLE BIT HARD, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT VERY STRONGLY SIGNALED IN THE ORAL ARGUMENTS IN THIS CASE ABOUT A MONTH AGO WHERE THEY WERE LEANING.

ANYTHING OTHER THAN A UNANIMOUS DECISION AGAINST THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A BIG SURPRISE.

THERE ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE THAT THOUGHT THAT INDIVIDUAL STATES HAD THE RIGHT TO KNOCK FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP OFF THE BALLOT.

THE GROUNDS USED BY COLORADO WERE THE IDEA THAT TRUMP WAS AN INSURRECTIONIST AND THEREFORE NOT QUALIFIED.

THE SUPREME COURT BASICALLY SAID, OKAY, BUT IT'S THE CONGRESS AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT GETS TO DECIDE THAT, NOT INDIVIDUAL STATES, OR THERE WOULD BE CHAOS.

THEY DID NOT, BY THE WAY, RULE ON WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AN EVEN BIGGER VICTORY FOR DONALD TRUMP, WHICH IS, HE WANTED -- HIS LAWYERS WANTED THE SUPREME COURT TO SAY HE WASN'T AN INSURRECTIONIST.

THE SUPREME COURT DIDN'T GO THERE.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

ALSO, THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE TWO RULINGS, THE UNANIMOUS, YOU KNOW, SAYING, NO, HE CAN STAY ON COLORADO, AND, OF COURSE, WE'VE GOT PRIMARIES COMING RIGHT UP TOMORROW, BUT BY 5-4, THE JUSTICES SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY SAID, AND IN EVERY OTHER STATE, ALSO, HE COULD STAY ON, BUT FOUR OF THEM DISAGREED.

>> RIGHT, SO, THE DISAGREEMENT IS VERY INTERESTING.

THE THREE LIBERAL JUSTICES GOT TOGETHER AND MADE A VERY CRITICAL OPINION OF THE REST OF THEIR COLLEAGUES, BUT IT'S BASICALLY A DISPUTE OVER WHO HAS THE POWER TO DECIDE THAT A CANDIDATE WOULD NOT BE ELIGIBLE, WHETHER IT'S ONLY CONGRESS, OR WHETHER THERE COULD BE A FEDERAL COURT IN THE FUTURE THAT DECIDES THAT, IN FACT, THERE IS AN INSURRECTIONIST WHO SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE ON THE BALLOT, SO, THEIR CRITICISM WAS BASICALLY SAYING THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE COURT WENT TOO FAR IN THE RULING ON THE MECHANISM BY WHICH IT CAN BE DETERMINED TO KNOCK SOMEBODY OFF THE BALLOT.

AND THEY REALLY WERE VERY SCATHING, AND I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS DONALD TRUMP PUTTING YET ANOTHER INSTITUTION OF AMERICAN GOVERNMENT, THE SUPREME COURT, UNDER TREMENDOUS INTERNAL STRESS.

YOU CAN SEE THE FRACTURES HERE, AND BY THE WAY, THE NEXT CASE, THERE COULD BE EVEN MORE FRACTURES, THIS CASE OVER WHETHER TRUMP SHOULD HAVE PRESIDENTIAL IMMUNITY, EVEN WHEN HE LEFT OFFICE FROM FACING CRIMINAL CHARGES.

>> SO, WHAT IS THE POLITICAL IMPACT?

IT DOES LOOK LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP IS WINNING THE BATTLE SO FAR TO PREVENT ANY KIND OF JUDGMENT IN A COURT BEFORE ELECTION DAY.

>> YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, DONALD TRUMP, YOU KNOW, HAS HAD A LONG, LONG LEGAL PLAYBOOK, AND -- THROUGHOUT HIS BUSINESS, AS WELL AS POLITICAL CAREER, IT'S USING THE COURTS, DELAY, DELAY, DELAY.

AND RUN OUT THE CLOCK ON THESE THINGS, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS A LOT OF PRACTICE IN, THAT HAS BEEN HIS STRATEGY, UNPRECEDENTED FOUR CRIMINAL INDICTMENTS FOR A FORMER PRESIDENT, NO PRESIDENT BEFORE HIM HAS EVER HAD A SINGLE CRIMINAL INDICTMENT.

HE HAS FOUR.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE WAY THAT OUR LEGAL SYSTEM WORKS, IT'S SLOW, IT CAN BE TIED UP IN ENDLESS LEGAL APPEALS AND DISPUTES, AND LAST WEEK, I THINK, IN SOME WAYS, IT WAS AN EVEN BIGGER VICTORY AT THE SUPREME COURT TO HAVE THEM TAKE THIS IMMUITY CASE, BUT ON AN EXTENDED TIMEFRAME THAT SUGGESTS THERE JUST WON'T BE TIME TO HAVE A FULL TRIAL IN THE PROBABLY MOST SERIOUS CASE AGAINST TRUMP, THE FEDERAL CASE ABOUT HIS EFFORTS TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION.

>> SO, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU CAN DO THIS IN 60 SECONDS, BUT THERE'S SUPER TUESDAY, TRUMP IS GOING TO SWEEP IT FOR THE GOP, AND THEN THERE'S THE STATE OF THE UNION, WHERE BIDEN WILL COME OUT AND ESSENTIALLY PRESENT HIMSELF AND THE CASE TO THE COUNTRY.

WHAT DO WE EXPECT THIS WEEK ON BOTH SIDES?

>> YEAH, IT'S A VERY, VERY BIG WEEK, IN SOME WAYS, THIS IS THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL WEEK OF 2024 ELECTION YEAR SO FAR.

IT STRIKES ME THAT DONALD TRUMP, THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY IS OVER AND WON, WHAT WE'VE LEARNED IS THAT ESSENTIALLY TWO-THIRDS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ARE STRONGLY STILL IN DONALD TRUMP'S CAMP.

THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT GROUP OF REPUBLICANS, HOWEVER, WHO AREN'T FOR TRUMP RIGHT NOW.

CAN JOE BIDEN CONVINCE SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE, ALONG WITH QUESTIONING MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY TO GET OVER THEIR DOUBTS ABOUT HIS AGE AND ABILITY TO KEEP DOING THE JOB, AND TO GIVE HIM ANOTHER TERM?

THAT'S THE STAKES OF THIS WEEK'S STATE OF THE UNION SPEECH, AND FRANKLY, OF THE WHOLE YEAR.

>> REALLY FASCINATING.

SUSAN GLASSER, ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> NOW, WHILE BORDER POLITICS AND MASS MIGRATION ARE KEY ISSUES IN THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, BACK IN THE 1980s, CANDIDATES WERE GETTING TOUGH ON CRIME.

HISTORIAN REIKO HILLYER TRACES THE CHANGES IN AMERICA'S PRISON SYSTEMS THROUGHOUT THE 20th CENTURY IN A NEW BOOK "A WALL IS JUST A WALL."

AND SHE'S JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE POLICY SHIFT.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> IT'S AN HONOR, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> SO, WE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT YOUR BOOK, IT'S ABOUT CLEMENCY.

SO, FOR PEOPLE THAT AREN'T AWARE, WHAT IS CLEMENCY, WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

>> YEAH, I'M GLAD YOU ASKED.

CLEMENCY IS A PRACTICE THAT IS ALLOWED TO THE EXECUTIVE, SO, A PRESIDENT OR A GOVERNOR, AND THE PREROGATIVE TO EXERCISE MERCY, BASICALLY, IT'S THE LAST RESORT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED AND HAVE EXHAUSTED OTHER MEANS OF GETTING OUT.

AND CLEMENCY IS A DEMONSTRATION THAT THE GOVERNOR RECOGNIZES THAT A PERSON HAS CHANGED OVER TIME, AND THEY CAN BE SAFELY RELEASED OUT INTO SOCIETY.

AND SO, IT'S AN OFFERING OF FORGIVENESS AND SHORTENING OF A SENTENCE.

>> WHAT MADE YOU LOOK AT CLEMENCY AND HOW IT'S CHANGED OVER THE YEARS?

IT'S CHANGED A LOT.

>> YES.

>> OVER THE YEARS.

WHAT MADE YOU TAKE A LOOK AT IT?

>> WELL, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF WE UNDERSTAND MASS INCARCERATION, A VERY QUICK WAY OF SAYING IT IS THAT WE INCARCERATE WAY TOO MANY PEOPLE FOR WAY TOO LONG.

AND THIS HAS BEEN POSSIBLE IN LARGE PART BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN CONVINCED THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED VERY VIOLENT ACTS ARE PERMANENTLY DANGEROUS.

AND WE'VE MADE THEM INVISIBLE, AND SO WE CAN BE PERSUADED OF THESE SORT OF FEAR MONGERING IDEAS.

BUT OUR IDEAS ABOUT WHO POSES A VIOLENT THREAT, HOW LONG A MURDER SENTENCE SHOULD BE, HOW MUCH INTERACTION AN INCARCERATED PERSON SHOULD HAVE WITH THE FREE WORLD, THOSE ARE ALL IDEAS THAT HAVE CHANGED RADICALLY OVER TIME, AND I'M LOOKING AT TIME PERIODS WHEN THERE WAS A DIFFERENT KIND OF COMMON SENSE, WHEN GOVERNORS USED THEIR CLEMENCY POWERS MUCH MORE ROBUSTLY, AND THE DECLINE OF THE USE OF CLEMENCY HAS RESULTED IN THE MASS IMPRISONMENT OF PEOPLE FOR VERY EXTREME SENTENCES WHO ARE READY TO GET OUT.

>> SO, HOW DID THE IDEA OF CLEMENCY IN THE UNITED STATES KIND OF COME TO BE?

WAS IT ALWAYS PART OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM?

>> THE FOUNDING FATHERS RECOGNIZED THAT ALL OF OUR SYSTEMS OF GOVERNANCE WERE ULTIMATELY FALLIBLE, BECAUSE THEY ARE CREATED BY HUMAN BEINGS, AND THE IDEA THAT AN EXECUTIVE SHOULD BE ABLE TO EXERCISE MERCY WAS SEEN AS A CHECK ON ALL OF THOSE SYSTEMS.

IT WAS A VERY RECOGNITION OF A HUMAN NEED TO RECTIFY MISTAKES, AND IT WAS -- IT'S IN THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION, AND IT'S IN EVERY SINGLE STATE CONSTITUTION.

AND FOR OVER, YOU KNOW, 200 YEARS, GOVERNORS RECOGNIZED AND USED THIS POWER RELATIVELY FREQUENTLY.

IN THE JIM CROW SOUTH, IT WAS EXERCISED ALL THE TIME.

GOVERNORS WOULD RELEASE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE AT THE ENDS OF THEIR TERMS, AND, OF COURSE, THAT WAS, IN THE CONTEXT OF WHITE SUPREMACY, SO, THERE WERE OTHER MECHANISMS TO KEEP PEOPLE IN THEIR PLACE, IF YOU NEED WHAT I MEAN.

BUT IT WASN'T JUST IN THE JIM CROW SOUTH, IN OREGON, IN THE 1890s, A GOVERNOR RELEASED A QUARTER OF THE PRISON POPULATION AT THE END OF HIS TERM.

IN NEW YORK, GOVERNORS HAVE USED CLEMENCY THROUGHOUT THE 1960s AND '70s, MOST PEOPLE CONVICTED OF MURDER.

IN LOUISIANA, FOR MOST OF THE 20th CENTURY, IT WAS UNDERSTOOD THAT A LIFE SENTENCE DID NOT MEAN LIFE, AND THAT IF A PERSON CONDUCTED THEMSELVES WELL IN PRISON AND DEMONSTRATED SOME PERSONAL GROWTH, THAT THE WARDEN WOULD RECOMMEND HIM FOR CLEMENCY AND THE GOVERNOR WOULD BASICALLY RUBBER STAMP IT.

AND THIS WAS ROUTINE FOR ABOUT 75 YEARS IN LOUISIANA.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE FOUND YOU IS THAT YOU WROTE AN OP-ED FOR "THE BOSTON GLOBE" POINTING OUT SOMETHING THAT THE GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS HAS PROPOSED, MAKING THE CLEMENCY SYSTEM MORE EXPANSIVE, YOU KNOW, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THINGS LIKE THE AGE THAT A PERSON WAS WHEN AN OFFENSE WAS COMMITTED, HOW THE PERSON HAS CON DUCKED HIMSELF OR HERSELF WHILE INCARCERATED, THINGS OF THAT SORT.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINTED OUT, THIS IS ACTUALLY A RETURN TO THE WAY THINGS USED TO WORK.

SO, WHAT CHANGED?

HOW DID IT BECOME THAT, I MEAN, YOU POINT OUT THAT, YOU KNOW, GOVERNORS EVEN IN SO-CALLED SORT OF PROGRESSIVE STATES VERY RARELY USE THE CLEMENCY PROCESS TODAY.

WHAT CHANGED?

>> WELL, IN THE 1990s, AS YOU ARE PROBABLY AWARE, THERE WAS A WAVE OF SO-CALLED TOUGH ON CRIME LEGISLATION, AND A KIND OF HUNGER FOR A MORE PUNITIVE APPROACH TO INCARCERATION, REPLACING REHABILITATION WITH HARSH PUNISHMENT.

AND THIS IS THE ERA OF MANDATORY MINIMUMS AND TRUTH IN SENTENCING, AND IT'S ALWAYS AN ERA OF LOTS OF ANTI-WELFARE RHETORIC, AND A LOT OF SORT OF DEMONIZING OF THE RACIALIZED POOR AND OF DRUG USERS.

AND SO, THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE COULD BE RELEASED EARLY WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS PORTRAYED AS AN UNDUE RISK.

AND THIS WAS BASICALLY A SUCCESSFUL PROPAGANDA CAMPAIGN, BASED ON SENSATIONALIZING VERY EXCEPTIONAL CASES.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE WILLIE HORTON CASE OR THE WILLIAM HORTON CASE OF THE LATE 1980s.

>> WOULD YOU JUST GO BACK AND DESCRIBE WHAT HAPPENED?

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, FOR PEOPLE WHO COVER PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS, THEY REALIZE IT LOOKED VERY LARGE IN THE CAMPAIGN BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, THEN VICE PRESIDENT GEORGE H.W.

BUSH AND THEN MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR MICHAEL DUKAKIS.

>> YEAH, SO, WILLIAM HORTON WAS ONE OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO WAS RELEASED FROM A MASSACHUSETTS STATE PRISON FACILITY IN THE LATE 1980s ON A FURLOUGH PROGRAM THAT WAS EXTENDED TO EVEN PEOPLE SERVING LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.

WILLIAM HORTON WAS SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY DID WORK IN A NEARBY MENTAL HOSPITAL, TAKING CARE OF PEOPLE WHO WERE MENTALLY DISABLED.

BUT ON HIS 13th OR SO FURLOUGH, HE ABABSCONDED, AND HE WAS INVOLVED IN A VIOLENT CRIME AND WAS CAPTURED AND USED AS KIND OF A SYMBOL OF SOFT ON CRIME.

AND DUKAKIS WAS PORTRAYED AS SOMEONE WHO WAS WILLY NILLY GIVING WEEKEND PASSES FOR MURDERS TO PILLAGE.

BUT IN FACT, FURLOUGHS WERE COMMON IN ALL 50 STATES.

THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL 99% OF THE TIME.

IN FACT, IN 1971, SOMEONE WHO WENT OUT ON FURLOUGH IN CALIFORNIA SHOT AND KILLED A POLICE OFFICER, AND NONE OTHER THAN GOVERNOR RONALD REAGAN SAID, WELL, THAT'S A MISTAKE, AND THAT'S A FAILURE, BUT IT'S A RISK WORTH TAKING, BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THAT FURLOUGH IS AN SEASON REHABILITATIVE TOOL.

SO, RONALD REAGAN DID NOT SENSATIONALIZE THAT EVENT.

BUT BY THE 1980s, LATE 1980s, THE TIDE HAS BEGUN TO TURN.

AND SORT OF THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE WAS ABLE TO CAST THIS CASE OF WILLIE HORTON HAS TYPICAL, RATHER THAN EXCEPTIONAL.

AND THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE WERE PERPETUALLY DANGEROUS, AND INCOVERAGEABLE, CAME TO TAKE HOLD, AND THAT SEEMED TO JUSTIFY THE EXTREMELY LONG SENTENCES WITHOUT EVER ANY CHANCE OF RELEASE, EVEN TEMPORARILY, LET ALONE PERMANENTLY.

AND I WOULD ALSO ADD THAT BECAUSE OF THE ANTI-WELFARE RHETORIC OF THE TIME, PRISON CONDITIONS WERE INCREASINGLY PORTRAYED AS TOO CUSHY, AND THERE WAS THIS IDEA OF COUNTRY CLUB PRISONS THAT ARE CODDLING PRISONS AND ENCOURAGING MORE CRIME, BECAUSE THEY'RE JUST WANTING TO GO BACK.

AND SO, INSTEAD OF JUST GIVING PEOPLE LONGER SENTENCES, THERE WAS THIS IDEA THAT THEIR CONDITIONS SHOULD BE MEANER, SHOULD BE HARSHER.

AND SO, EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS WERE TAKEN AWAY, FAMILY VISITATION WAS TAKEN AWAY, AND SO, THIS IS A PROCESS THAT I CALL THE HARDENING, OR THE THICKENING, OF PRISON WALLS.

AND WHEN INCARCERATED PEOPLE HAVE FEWER OPPORTUNITIES TO INTERACT WITH PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE, WE CAN MUCH MORE EASILY SURRENDER TO THE BELIEF THAT THEY'RE PERMANENT DEMONS, AND THAT'S FACTUALLY NOT THE CASE.

>> SPEAKING OF CONDITIONS, YOU ALSO POINT OUT THAT THINGS LIKE CONGUGAL VISITS WITH A SPOUSE WAS A COMMON FEATURE OF THE PRISON EXPERIENCE IN A LOT OF PLACES, SO, FURLOUGHS, CLEMENCY, CONGUGAL VISITS, FAMILY VISITS, THAT WAS KIND OF ALL PART OF PRISON LIFE AT A CERTAIN POINT.

DID IT ALL GO AWAY AT THE SAME TIME?

>> THAT'S A GET QUESTION.

I MEAN, BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE PRISON POLICIES, OR, MOST OF THESE PRISON POLICIES ARE AT THE STATE LEVEL, SO, INDIVIDUAL STATES MAKE THESE DECISIONS, AND SO, IT'S NOT ENTIRELY EVEN.

AFTER MASSACHUSETTS DECIDED TO QUESTION ITS FURLOUGH PROGRAM, MISSISSIPPI CORRECTIONS OFFICIALS SAID, WELL, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DISCONTINUE THIS PROGRAM JUST BECAUSE OF ONE SENSATIONAL CASE IN THE NEWS, THIS IS A GOOD PROGRAM, AND THEY KEPT ON AT IT.

AND SO, THE DEMISE OF THESE PROGRAMS WAS RATHER STAGGERED.

BUT IF YOU WERE TO TAKE THE LONGER VIEW, IT'S AROUND THE 1990s.

THE SAME YEAR AS THE -- AS THE CRIME BILL OF 1994, THE SAME TIME PERIOD AS THREE STRIKS LAWS, THE SAME PERIOD AS WELFARE REFORM, THERE'S A KIND OF AUSTERITY IN THE FREE WORLD, AND ALSO AN AUSTERITY THAT'S APPLIED TO THE -- WITHIN THE WALLS OF THE PRISON ITSELF.

>> THIS IS SO INTERESTING, YOU SAY THAT THIS WAS, IN PART, DUE TO WHAT YOU CALL THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE, SORT OF GETTING INTO SORT OF OVERDRIVE.

BUT I'M JUST WONDERING, WHY WOULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN THAT WAY BEFORE?

THE NOTION THAT CERTAIN PEOPLE ARE INHERENTLY DANGEROUS, THE NOTION, ESPECIALLY, THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE HIRNTLY DANGEROUS.

THAT'S NOT A NEW THOUGHT.

AND I'M JUST CURIOUS WHY YOU THINK THAT WHAT YOU CALL SORT OF THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE KIND OF KICKED IN SO LATE IN THE STORY?

>> RIGHT, WELL, JUST TO SUPPORT THE PREMISE OF YOUR QUESTION, THE MEDIA IN THE PAST OFTEN SUPPORTED CLEMENCIES AND COMMUTATIONS, AND WROTE ABOUT CHRISTMAS LEAVES IN THE AMERICAN SOUTH, HERALDING THE GOVERNOR FOR LETTING SO MANY HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE OUT FOR CHRISTMAS, AND EVEN GOVERNOR ROSS BARNETT WAS COVERED POSITIVELY WHEN HE EXERCISED HIS CLEMENCY POWERS TO FREE DOZENS AND DOZENS OF PEOPLE.

AND IN THE 1980s, WHEN GOVERNOR WINTER IN MISSISSIPPI USED HIS CLEMENCY POWERS TO REDUCE A PRISON OVERCROWDING CRISIS, HE DEFENDED THE PRACTICE AND THE MEDIA SUPPORTED IT.

AND SO, THERE WAS THIS ABSOLUTE TURN.

AND I DO THINK THE TURN HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT ITSELF.

I THINK WE UNDERSTAND THAT TO SOME EXTENT, MASS INCARCERATION IS A RESPONSE TO THE FREEDOM STRUGGLES OF THE '60s AND '70s, AND I THINK PEOPLE WHO WANT TO STAY IN POWER OFTEN FIND NEW MECHANISMS FOR CONTAINING AND ABSORBING PEOPLE THAT THEY FIND DISORDERLY OR THREATENING.

AND I THINK THAT AS PEOPLE BECAME MORE ISOLATED FROM FREE SOCIETY, IT BECOMES EASIER TO DEMONIZE THE SINGULAR CASE, AND HISTORIAN, TO SORT OF DISRUPT THAT COMMON SENSE, AND ASK US TO THINK, TO TIMES AND PLACES IN THE PAST, WHEN THERE WAS A DIFFERENT SORT OF COMMON SENSE, AND I DON'T WANT TO ROMANTICIZE PRISON CONDITIONS FROM THE 1960s, AND I'M NOT UNCOVERING SOME KIND OF GOLDEN AGE.

BUT USING A HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE, WHICH IS, I THINK, WHAT WE NEED HERE, IS AN ATTEMPT TO RESTORE A MEMORY WHEN THERE WERE DIFFERENT KINDS OF COMMON SENSE.

AND THIS KIND OF OPEN OUR IMAGINATION TO DIFFERENT POSSIBILITIES AND ALLOWS US TO UNLEARN IDEAS THAT HAVE BECOME SO HARDENED IN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS.

>> WHAT MADE YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THIS?

>> OH, THANK YOU FOR ASKING THAT.

BECAUSE HISTORIANS TO SOME EXTENT ARE ALWAYS WRITING ABOUT OURSELVES, EVEN IF WE PRETEND TO BE VERY DETACHED.

I'M A PROFESSOR IN A SMALL LIBERAL ARTS COLLEGE, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I DO THERE IS, I TEACH IN SOMETHING CALLED THE INSIDE-OUT PRISON EXCHANGE PROGRAM.

AND THIS WAS FOUNDED AT TEMPLE UNIVERSITY.

A CRIMINOLOGY PROFESSOR AND SOMEONE INCARCERATED IN PRISON FOR 36 YEARS.

AND THE PROGRAM CAMS COLLEGE STUDENTS INTO PRISONS TO STUDY IN AN INTEGRATED CLASS WITH INCARCERATED STUDENTS.

AND IT'S A PHENOMENAL EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE IT BREAKS DOWN THOSE WALLS AND STEREOTYPES IMMEDIATELY.

WHEN PEOPLE CAN LOOK AT EACH OTHER, EYE TO EYE, THERE'S A TREMENDOUS SENSE OF CONNECTION THAT IS QUITE REVOLUTIONARY.

AND PART OF THE REASON WHY THAT SPACE IS SO PRECIOUS IS BECAUSE THAT ENCOUNTER IS SO RARE.

AND AS AN HISTORIAN, I ASK QUESTIONS, LIKE, WELL, HAS IT ALWAYS BEEN SO?

HAS IT ALWAYS BEEN THAT WE ARE -- THAT FOLKS WHO ARE INCARCERATED ARE SORT OF PERMANENTLY EXILED AND HAVE VERY LITTLE OPPORTUNITY TO ENGAGE WITH THE FREE WORLD?

AND IT TURNS OUT THAT THIS IS RELATIVELY NEW.

AND MY RESEARCH BEARS IT OUT.

AND I WAS RESEARCHING A STRIKE AT VIRGINIA STATE PENITENTIARY IN 1968, AND, YOU KNOW, THIS IS 1968, LIKE, LOTS OF SOCIAL UNREST, LOTS OF TURBULENCE, LOTS OF CONSERVATIVE BACKLASH AGAINST THE FREEDOM STRUGGLE, AND IN THE MIDST OF THIS STRIKE, THE GOVERNOR IS LETTING PEOPLE OUT OF VIRGINIA STATE PENITENTIARY TO GO PLAY IN CHESS MATCHES AT LOCAL HIGH SCHOOLS.

AND I WAS ABSOLUTELY STUNNED.

AND I -- AND I HAD TO LEARN MORE.

>> I AM CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT YOU'D SAY TO SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN VICTIMIZED, FOR EXAMPLE, OR -- BY A TERRIBLE CRIME, AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE LOGIC OF SAYING, WELL, PEOPLE SHOULD STILL HAVE SOME OPPORTUNITY TO GET OUT OR TO REDEEM THEMSELVES, OR TO LIVE IN THE REST OF THE POPULATION?

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

>> I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT, HONESTLY, TO CHANGE THE MIND OF THAT PERSON, AND PROBABLY DIFFICULT TO PRESENT DATA IN DEFENSE OF A POSITION THAT IS ULTIMATELY EMOTIONAL.

BUT IF WE'RE OPERATING ON THAT KIND OF HUMAN EMOTIONAL LEVEL, I WOULD SAY THAT IT'S A HUMAN RIGHT THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO REDEEM THEMSELVES.

IT'S A HUMAN QUALITY TO BE ABLE TO FORGIVE AND BE FORGIVEN.

THAT NOBODY WANTS TO BE SHACKLED TO THE WORST MOMENTS OF THEIR LIVES.

AND THAT PEOPLE DO CHANGE OVER TIME.

AND THE RESEARCH SHOWS THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CONVICTED, EVEN OF THE MOST VIOLENT CRIMES, IF THEY'VE BEEN INCARCERATED FOR 20, 30, 40 YEARS, IF THEY'RE OVER 50 YEARS OLD, THEIR CHANCE OF COMMITTING ANY NEW CRIME, LET ALONE THE VIOLENT CRIME, IS UNBELIEVABLY LOW.

IT'S LOWER THAN 1%.

AND STUDIES BEAR THIS OUT.

AND WHILE IT'S HARD TO CONVINCE SOMEONE WHO FEELS IN THEIR HEART THAT REVENGE NEEDS TO MOTIVATE PUNISHMENT, IF WE THINK, INSTEAD, ABOUT RISK AND PUBLIC SAFETY, I THINK THAT IT ACTUALLY SERVES PUBLIC SAFETY TO HAVE THESE INCREDIBLY TRANSFORMED PEOPLE BACK INTO OUR COMMUNITIES.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK MIGHT CHANGE THE CONTEXT FOR POLITICAL LEADERS, PARTICULARLY ELECTED LEADERS, WHO ULTIMATELY ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS?

I MEAN, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO -- NOT JUST THE INDIVIDUAL ADMINISTRATORS WHO HAVE TO VOTE ON INDIVIDUAL INCARCERATED PEOPLE, BUT JUST, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT THE COMMUNITY'S INTEREST AT LARGE.

>> I WOULD SAY, WE COULD NOT PUNISH PEOPLE WHO ARE CURRENTLY INCARCERATED.

THOSE PEOPLE ARE SERVING TIME.

THEY HAVE SERVED A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

AND THEY ARE NOT THE PEOPLE THAT THEY WERE WHEN THEY WERE 18, BUT TO REALLY GET AT THE CORE OF MASS INCARCERATION, WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THE MASSIVE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE CURRENTLY INCARCERATED.

RIGHT NOW, THERE ARE OVER 200,000 PEOPLE SERVING LIFE SENTENCES OR VIRTUAL LIFE SENTENCES IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND THAT IS A LARGER NUMBER THAN WAS IN THE ENTIRE PRISON POPULATION IN THE UNITED STATES IN 1970.

MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE READY TO GET OUT.

THEY ARE DOING WORK TO DEMONSTRATE THIS, AND I THINK WE HAVE TO CHANGE OUR IDEAS OF RISK.

RIGHT NOW, POLITICIANS HAVE CONVINCED THE AMERICAN PUBLIC THAT WE'RE ENTITLED TO A FEELING OF ZERO RISK, OF AN ENTIRELY CRIME-FREE SOCIETY.

AND THAT IS A STANDARD THAT IS NOT MET IN ANY HUMAN ENDEAVOR AND IT'S NOT EXPECTED IN ANY HUMAN ENDEAVOR.

THERE ARE TRAFFIC FATALITIES EVERY SINGLE DAY.

WE DOCARS OFF THE ROAD.

SO, I THINK THE IDEA THAT PUBLIC SAFETY AND RISK ARE OPPOSITES OR MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, IT'S A FALSE CHOICE.

PUBLIC SAFETY IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE SERVED BY ALLOWING PEOPLE INSIDE MORE INTERACTION WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

AND CORRECTIONS OFFICERS AND CORRECTIONS PROFESSIONALS AND ACADEMICS AND WARDENS AND GOVERNORS KNEW THIS NOT THAT LONG AGO.

THAT IT'S A PUBLIC SAFETY MEASURE TO BEGIN TO INTEGRATE PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED BACK INTO OUR COMMUNITIES, THAT THIS CAN ACTUALLY REDUCE CRIME, AND MAKE US MORE WHOLE.

>> PROFESSOR REIKO HILLYER, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, IT WAS WONDERFUL.

>> AND SOMETIMES EVEN PROTEST IS TREATED AS CRIME.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, OVER THE WEEKEND, POLLS CLOSED IN IRAN'S LEGISLATIVE ELECTIONS, WHERE MILLIONS VOICED THEIR DEEP DISAFFECTION WITH THE STATE OF THE COUNTRY, BY BOYCOTTING THE VOTE ENTIRELY.

FROM THE CRACKDOWN ON FREEDOM TO THE MISMANAGEMENT OF THE IRANIAN ECONOMY, PEOPLE ARE FED UP AND ANGRY WITH THE HARD-LINE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT.

MEANTIME, AN IRANIAN POP STAR WHO EMBODIES THE PROTEST MOVEMENT HAS BEEN JAILED.

HERE HE IS SINGING, "FOR MY SISTER, YOUR SISTER, OUR SISTER, SISTER," AND EVERYBODY HE NAMED IN THIS SONG.

♪♪ ♪♪ >> NOW, HE'S ACCUSED OF SPREADING PROPAGANDA AGAINST THE REGIME.

HE'S FORCED TO WRITE A SONG ABOUT U.S. ATROCITIES.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS IN IRAN.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.