CRAIG: I AM CRAIG LEMOULT.

TONIGHT ON GREATER BOSTON, LOCAL LAWMAKERS HOPING TO WORK WITH MBTA POLICE TO KEEP EXTREMISTS OUT OF BOSTON'’S ST. PATRICK'’S DAY PARADE AND PREVENT THE KIND OF HATE THAT WAS ON DISPLAY LAST YEAR.

THEN, THREE YEARS OF THE PANDEMIC.

WE WILL DIG INTO WHAT WE HAVE LOST, WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED, AND HOW FAR WE STILL HAVE TO GO WITH A PAIR OF LOCAL INFECTIOUS DISEASE DOCTORS.

AHEAD OF THIS ANNUAL ST. PATRICK'’S DAY PARADE IN SOUTH BOSTON, LOCAL LAWMAKERS ARE LOOKING TO KEEP HATE OUT OF THE FESTIVITIES.

THE KIND OF HATE THAT WAS ON FULL DISPLAY AT LAST YEAR'’S PARADE, WHEN MEMBERS OF THE WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUP HUNG A BANNER THAT READ, KEEP BOSTON IRISH.

THEY ALSO DEFACED PUBLIC PROPERTY WITH HATEFUL PROPAGANDA .

LOCAL LEADERS SENT A LETTER TO THE CHIEF OF THE MBTA TRANSIT POLICE URGING THEM TO COLLABORATE ON A SECURITY PLAN TO KEEP WHAT HAPPENED LAST YEAR FROM HAPPENING AGAIN.

COUNCIL PRESIDENT ED FLYNN JOINS ME NOW AS THE SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER PHILLIP MARTIN, WHO HAS BEEN COVERING WHITE SUPREMACY IN MASSACHUSETTS EXTENSIVELY.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

PHILIP, CAN YOU TELL US, WHAT HAPPENED AT LAST YEAR'’S PARADE?

PHILLIP: LAST YEAR'’S PARADE, I THINK PEOPLE WERE SURPRISED.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE SHOWED UP IN SOUTH BOSTON FOR THE ANNUAL PARADE AND SUDDENLY YOU HAVE ABOUT TWO DOZEN MEMBERS OF A NEO-NAZI GROUP STANDING AS THE PARADE WOULD GO BY WITH A HUGE BANNER IN FRONT OF THE PARADE GOERS AND THOSE WHO WERE TAKING PART IN THE FLOATS AND SO ON AND SO FORTH WITH A BANNER THAT SAYS, KEEP BOSTON IRISH.

AND IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS SURPRISING TO A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

AND AT THAT POINT YOU FOUND TWO PEOPLE WHO WERE -- THIS WAS LIVE TWEETED, AND THEY SAW THIS.

THIS IS THE FILMMAKER, ROD WEBER, AND LAUREN, LOCAL ANTI-FASCIST ACTIVISTS.

THEY JUMPED IN THEIR CAR, CAME DOWN TO THE DEMONSTRATION, AND STARTED DEMONSTRATING.

THEY CAME DOWN TO THE PARADE, I SHOULD SAY, AND STARTED DEMONSTRATING AS A COUPLE, AND ASKING OTHERS TO JOIN IN.

THEN SUDDENLY PEOPLE STARTED DENOUNCING, THEY STARTED REALIZING WHAT WAS GOING ON AND DENOUNCING INDIVIDUALS.

THEY STARTED TO LEAVE THE PARADE AFTER THEY WERE BEING SHOUTED AT.

WEBER AND HIS COLLEAGUES FOLLOWED ONE AND WERE HARASSING THESE INDIVIDUALS.

ESSENTIALLY, THE BOTTOM LINE IS THEY HAD A PRESENCE AT THIS PARADE, AND IT ANGERED A LOT OF PEOPLE.

ANGERED THEM SO MUCH THAT THE FOLLOWING WEEK, THERE WAS A COUNTER DEMONSTRATION IN WHICH THEY HAD ACTUALLY CHALLENGED THE BAND THE DROPKICK MURPHY'’S TO SHOW UP AT THIS PARK IN SOUTH BOSTON.

THE DROPKICK MURPHY'’S WERE THERE ALONG WITH MANY SUPPORTERS, BUT THE HATE GROUP DID NOT SHOW UP.

ANYWAY, THIS BECAME A HUGE INTERNATIONAL STORY, AS YOU KNOW.

CRAIG: I WANT TO ASK, COUNCIL PRESIDENT, YOU AND OTHER OFFICIALS HAVE WRITTEN THIS LETTER CALLING FOR THE MBTA POLICE TO STEP IN.

WHY THE MBTA?

WHY REACH OUT TO THEM?

WHAT CAN THEY DO TO ADDRESS THIS?

ED: WELL, YOU ARE CORRECT, WE REACHED OUT TO THE MBTA POLICE.

WE ALSO REACHED OUT TO BOSTON POLICE AND THE STATE POLICE AS WELL.

WE ARE MEETING WITH ALL THREE OF THE DEPARTMENTS VERY SOON.

BUT THEY DO USE THE MBTA SYSTEM TO GET FROM ONE LOCATION -- I THINK IT IS SOMEWHERE OUTSIDE OF MEDFORD, THAT AREA, THE LAST TIME -- TO GET INTO THE CITY, TO THE MBTA SYSTEM.

ALSO, IT'’S ABOUT WORKING CLOSELY WITH BOSTON POLICE, MBTA POLICE, STATE POLICE.

THERE REALLY SHOULD BE ZERO TOLERANCE.

THERE IS NO ROOM AT ALL IN THIS CITY FOR THIS WHITE SUPREMACY GROUP OR ANY HATE GROUP.

CAN WE HAVE SEEN A LOT OF THESE DEMONSTRATIONS HERE IN THE MOST PROGRESSIVE CITY IN THE COUNTRY.

AND WE HAVE SEEN AT VARIOUS HOSPITALS, COLLEGES, AND UNIVERSITIES.

WE HAVE SEEN ANTI-LGBTQ DEMONSTRATIONS.

WE HAVE SEEN ATTACKS ON THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, IMMIGRANT COMMUNITY.

SO, HERE IN BOSTON, WE NEED TO STAND TOGETHER, ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE HAVE PROBLEMS JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER MAJOR CITY, BUT WE'’RE ALSO A CITY THAT RESPECTS OUR IMMIGRANT ROOTS AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE -- THAT WHEN WE HAVE AN EVENT, IT IS INCLUSIVE, SAFE, AND WELCOMING FOR ALL.

CRAIG: ONE LAST THING ON THE MBTA CALL SPECIFICALLY, WHAT ABILITY DOES THE MBTA HAS TO CONTROL WHO RIDES THEIR TRAINS?

ED: I THINK THE MBTA POLICE WILL WANT TO KNOW WHEN THESE NAZIS, T HESE WHITE SUPREMACISTS ARE USING THE MBTA TO GET FROM ONE LOCATION TO THE OTHER LOCATION.

IT IS ALSO ABOUT COORDINATING RESOURCES, KNOWING THAT WHEN THEY GET OFF AT A STOP, THAT ANOTHER POLICE DEPARTMENT SHOULD BE AWARE OF THEIR PRESENCE IN AN AROUND A PARTICULAR NEIGHBORHOOD.

WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS THEY ARE TRYING TO PROBE -- TRYING TO DIVIDE RESIDENTS.

THEY ARE TRYING TO INTIMIDATE PEOPLE.

AND THEY ARE TRYING TO HURT PEOPLE.

I THINK THE PEOPLE THROUGHOUT GREATER BOSTON ARE NOT GOING TO STAND FOR IT.

AND AS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, I THINK EVERY ELECTED OFFICIAL ACROSS THE STATE NEEDS TO STAND UP AND SPEAK OUT AGAINST THESE, I CALL THEM THUGS, THAT ARE INTIMIDATING PEOPLE ACROSS OUR STATE.

SO, I AM CONFIDENT THAT OUR PUBLIC SAFETY RESOURCES WILL BE COORDINATED APPROPRIATELY FOR THIS UPCOMING PARADE.

CRAIG: TO THAT POINT, PHILLIP, IF THESE PROTESTERS, IF THESE WHITE SUPREMACISTS DO HAVE SIGNS LIKE THEY DID LAST YEAR, WHAT ABILITY, IF ANY, DOES THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT?

PHILLIP: THERE'’S THE ISSUE OF FREE SPEECH.

THAT IS PART OF THE QUESTION YOU ARE GETTING TO, RIGHT?

AND THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLY.

THERE'’S ALSO QUESTIONS OF INTIMIDATION, WHICH FALL WITHIN A LEGAL -- THEY BECOME PART OF A LEGAL CONCERN.

INTIMIDATION ASPECT.

AND IF PARIS GOERS FEEL THEY ARE BEING INTIMIDATED, HARASSED -- AND THEY DON'’T WHO HAVE TO -- AND THEY DO NOT HAVE TO PROVE THEY ARE BEING INTIMIDATE IT, BY THE WAY.

BUT IF THEY FEEL THEY ARE BEING HARASSED, POLICE CAN PLAY A ROLE.

I DO NOT KNOW THE INTRICACIES OF THE LAW, IF THEY CAN TAKE THEIR SIGNS AWAY AND SO FORTH.

BUT I THINK THEY CAN -- THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO ADDRESS THE SITUATION IF PEOPLE FEEL HARASSED AND INTIMIDATED.

IF YOU HAVE INDIVIDUALS WITH SWASTIKAS ON AND SUKULL MASKS, AND THEY ARE BASICALLY DIRECTING TOWARDS JEWS, PEOPLE OF COLOR, ASIANS, LGBTQ COMMUNITYIES, THERE'’S UNDERSTANDABLE CONCERN THAT THEY ARE BEING INTIMIDATED AND HARASSED.

AND THAT BECOMES A REASON FOR SOME TYPE OF ACTION ON THE PART OF THE POLICE, THE U.S. ATTORNEY, EVEN, AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS.

CRAIG: COUNCIL PRESIDENT, IS THERE A RISK OF INFRINGING ON THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH OF THESE WHITE SUPREMACISTS?

ED: I DON'’T THINK SO.

I CERTAINLY SUPPORT THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

BUT WHEN THAT FIRST AMENDMENT IS USED AS A WAY TO INTIMIDATE PEOPLE, CAUSE HATE, CAUSE VIOLENCE, THAT'’S WHEN THE FIRST AMENDMENT, FOR ME, IS NOT APPLICABLE IN THAT SITUATION.

BECAUSE THEN THESE NAZIS ARE USING THIS OPPORTUNITY TO CREATE DIVISION, TO CREATE VIOLENCE, TO CREATE HATE CRIMES.

AND PHILLIP IS RIGHT.

I ALSO HAVE TALKED TO THE U.S. ATTORNEY RACHAEL ROLLINS SEVERAL TIMES ABOUT THIS OVER THE YEARS.

I KNOW SHE IS VERY CONCERNED AND IS ON TOP OF THIS SITUATION.

AND SHE HAS PROVIDED EXCELLENT LEADERSHIP.

I ALSO THINK THIS IS A VIOLATION OF CIVIL-RIGHTS, WHICH MAKES IT A FEDERAL JURISDICTION.

SO IT IS ABOUT CITY, STATE, AND EVEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WORKING TOGETHER TO ENSURE THAT EVERY CITY IS INCLUSIVE, AND EVERYONE IS TREATED WITH RESPECT.

CRAIG: PHILLIP, WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?

WHY ARE WE HEARING MORE FROM THESE GROUPS?

ARE THEY GROWING IN SIZE WERE BECOMING MORE VOCAL?

YOUR REPORTING HAS REALLY LOOKED AT WHAT IS GOING ON WITH WHITE SUPREMACY AND THESE TYPE OF HATE GROUPS.

WHAT IS GOING ON?

PHILLIP: THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED SOME GROWTH, YES.

BUT THAT IS NOT THE MAIN THING.

THE MAIN THING IS THEY FEEL EMBOLDENED.

THEY FEEL THEY CAN AMPLIFY -- AND THEY HAVE HAD SUCCESS -- AMPLIFYING THE MAINSTREAM CONCERNS OF MANY WITHIN THE FAR RIGHT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE TARGETED TRANSGENDER PEOPLE, HAVE TARGETED LGBTQ, HAVE TARGETED SO-CALLED CRITICAL RACE THEORY A ND WHAT THAT REPRESENTS.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE ON THE GROUND EXTREMISTS LIKE MSC131 AND SOME WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY YOU ARE ON THE FAR RIGHT, IS THAT THE LATTER STILL EMPLOY DOG WHISTLES.

MSC131 IS VERY EXPLICIT WITH ANTI-SEMITISM AND RACISM.

BUT THEY ARE AMPLIFYING ISSUES THAT ARE PART OF THE SO-CALLED CULTURE WAR THAT HAS BEEN EMBRACED BY, SADLY, BY MANY WITHIN THE FAR RIGHT FLANK OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THUS, YOU SEE -- THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS YOU WILL SEAT MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HANGING BANNERS FROM A HIGHWAY, IMPLORING PEOPLE TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT WHITE INDIVIDUALS, ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE.

BUT YOU DO HERE WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AMPLIFICATION OF THE GREAT REPLACEMENT THEORY, SO-CALLED, THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEING REPLACED BY IMMIGRANTS AND OTHERS IN SOME MAD SCHEME TO DISPLACE WHAT PEOPLE WITHIN THE UNITED STATES.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT TUCKER CARLSON TALKS ABOUT OFTEN.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN AMPLIFIED BY MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, LAUREN BOEBERT AND OTHERS WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

SO, WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IS AN AMPLIFICATION OF, AGAIN, CULTURAL THEMES BY EXTREMISTS.

IN OTHER WORDS, THE MAINSTREAMING OF A EXTREMISM.

IT IS NOT JUST MSC131 THAT IS OF CONCERN TO MANY PEOPLE.

IT IS THE PATRIOT FRONT, THEY HAVE ESTABLISHED A PRESENCE HERE.

THERE IS A GROUP CALLED THE BASE, THE PROUD BOYS IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

IT IS ALSO THE REASON, I SHOULD ADD, THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF NEW HAMPSHIRE AND OTHERS WITHIN MAINSTREAM LAW ENFORCEMENT HAVE PRESSED CHARGES AGAINST MSC131 OVER CIVIL-RIGHTS VIOLATIONS FOR HANGING THIS BANNER, HANGING BANNERS IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, FEELING THAT THIS WAS NOT A QUESTION OF, AS COUNCILMAN FLYNN SAID, FREEDOM OF SPEECH OR ASSEMBLY.

THIS IS A QUESTION OF HATE SPEECH A VIOLATION OF CIVIL-RIGHTS, AND THUS THEY TOOK A STEP TO ADDRESS IT.

CRAIG: COUNCIL PRESIDENT, YOU HAVE A MEETING NEXT WEEK YOU SAID WOULD CITY AND STATE OFFICIALS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT TO ADDRESS SAFETY AT THE PARADE.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT AND WHAT DO YOU HOPE IS GOING TO COME FROM THAT?

ED: THAT WE COORDINATE AND EXCHANGE IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS PARADE IS INCLUSIVE, IT IS SAFE, THAT PEOPLE WHO DO COME TO THE PARADE HAVE AN ENJOYABLE TIME BUT THEY ARE NOT INTIMIDATED BY HATE GROUPS THAT COME TO THIS PARADE TO DIVIDE PEOPLE, TO CAUSE HAVOC, TO CAUSE VIOLENCE AND INTIMIDATION.

THAT IS NOT WHAT OUR CITY IS ABOUT.

THIS IS AN INCLUSIVE CITY.

AND IT IS IMPORTANT THAT EVERYONE IS TREATED FAIRLY IN BOSTON.

BUT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE HAVE, AS PHILLIPS SAID, EXTREME HATEFUL GROUPS THROUGHOUT MASSACHUSETTS, THROUGHOUT NEW ENGLAND, AND WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT, BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT.

IT IS NOT GOING AWAY.

IT CONTINUES TO HAPPEN.

IT HAS HAPPENED AT THE CHILDREN'’S HOSPITAL, BETH ISRAEL HOSPITAL, THE HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL.

THESE SAME NAZI GROUPS HAVE MARCHED RIGHT THROUGH THE DOWNTOWN AREA, RIGHT THROUGH THE CHINATOWN AREA, INTIMIDATING THE AAPI COMMUNITIES.

AND PHILLIP IS RIGHT.

I THINK THIS HATEFUL SPEECH STARTED UNDER, OR WAS ENHANCED UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND IT CONTINUES TODAY.

AND I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE COME TOGETHER AS A COUNTRY, ACKNOWLEDGE IT, BUT TO DEAL WITH IT, AND TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ALWAYS TREAT OUR IMMIGRANT COMMUNITY WITH RESPECT AND DIGNITY.

I THINK THAT IS THE IMPORTANT PART.

IT IS EASY TO INTIMIDATE PEOPLE DURING A PANDEMIC, ESPECIALLY THE IMMIGRANT COMMUNITY, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DONE, IN MY OPINION.

CRAIG: COUNCIL PRESIDENT ED FLYNN AND PHILLIP MARTIN.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

NEXT UP, IT HAS BEEN THREE YEARS NEARLY TO THE DAY SINCE THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION FIRST DECLARED COVID-19 A GLOBAL PANDEMIC.

IN THE YEARS SINCE WE HAVE MISSED IMMEASURABLE LOSSES.

MORE THAN 6 MILLION PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD HAVE DIED, ALONG WITH ASTOUNDING INNOVATION AS WELL, AS SCIENTISTS RACED TO DEVELOP VACCINES TO REACH MILLIONS, AND NO DOUBT SAVED KALUS LIVES.

THESE DAYS, MUCH OF THE WORLD HAS RETURNED TO PRE-PANDEMIC NORMAL, HEADING BACK TO WORK, SCHOOL, RESTAURANT, CONCERTS, ETC.

WITH MANY LEADERS INCLUDING PRESIDENT BIDEN DECLARE ANY PANDEMIC ESSENTIALLY OVER.

BUT HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE ARE STILL DYING OF COVID EVERY DAY IN THE U.S. ALONE AND MILLIONS ARE LIVING WITH LONG-TERM SYMPTOMS AFTER THEY HAVE STOPPED TESTING POSITIVE FOR THE VIRUS.

TO LOOK BACK AT THE LAST THREE YEARS OF COVID AND THE LESSONS WE SHOULD TAKE WITH US INTO THE NEXT TWO YEARS I AM JOINED BY DR. CASSANDRA PIERRE, MEDICAL DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC HEALTH AND PROGRAMS AT BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER, AND PAUL SAX FROM BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'’S HOSPITAL.

DOCTORS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

DR. PIERRE: GREAT TO BE HERE.

DR. SAX: THANK YOU FOR INVITING US.

AND YES, THREE YEARS HAVE GONE BY VERY QUICKLY.

CRAIG: IT IS FUNNY YOU SAY THAT, BECAUSE I WAS THINKING IT HAS BEEN A LONG THREE YEAR.

SOMEHOW BOTH SEEM TO BE TRUE.

WHEN I LOOK BACK AT WHAT THOSE EARLY DAYS WERE LIKE, IT IS SORT OF AN AMAZING THING TO THINK ABOUT.

I AM WONDERING WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCES WERE LIKE IN THE BEGINNING, AS EVERYTHING CHANGED VIRTUALLY OVERNIGHT.

STARTING WITH YOU, DR. PIERRE.

CAN YOU REMIND US, FOR YOU, WHAT THINGS WERE LIKE, AND WHAT THINGS WERE LIKE IN YOUR HOSPITAL?

DR. PIERRE: I AGREE THAT TIME BOTH FEELS LIKE 10 SECONDS IN A DECADE HAVE PASSED BY.

IT WAS CHAOTIC PREDICTABLY, BUT ALSO CLARIFYING.

I FELT LIKE I WAS CONNECTED TO MY PURPOSE, WHICH WAS TO PREVENT INFECTIONS.

SO IT WAS A SERIES OF LONG MEETINGS, COMING TOGETHER WITH OUR DEPARTMENT, SECTION OR HOSPITAL TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO TO TAKE CARE OF OUR COMMUNITY.

CRAIG: DR. SAX, WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU IN THOSE EARLY DAYS?

DR. SAX: I AGREE ENTIRELY, BUT I ALSO SAY IT WAS HEARTBREAKING, TOO.

ONE OF THE REALLY DIFFICULT PARTS ABOUT IT WAS SEEING PEOPLE IN THE HOSPITAL WHO COULD NOT BE VISITED BY THEIR FAMILY AND FRIENDS.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WILL ALWAYS STICK WITH ME, THE SENSE OF ISOLATION THAT PEOPLE WITH COVID-19 IN THE HOSPITAL AT THAT TIME HAD.

AS I SAID, IT WAS HEARTBREAKING AND SOMETHING I HOPE WE NEVER HAVE TO GO BACK TO.

CRAIG: THINGS GOT PRETTY BLEAK HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, AS THEY DID AROUND THE COUNTRY, AROUND THE WORLD.

FOR EACH OF YOU, WHAT WERE THE DARKEST DAYS?

WHEN WAS IT AT ITS WORST AND WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

DR. PIERRE, FOR YOU, WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER FROM THOSE TOUGHEST MOMENTS?

DR. PIERRE: THERE WERE A SERIES OF LOW POINTS.

BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY STUCK TO ME IS THAT, ONE OF THE FIRST FEW PATIENTS WERE PREGNANT WOMEN.

I CERTAINLY HAVE VISUALS OF WOMEN REMAINING IN ICU'’S LONG AFTER THEIR BABIES WERE BORN, WEEKS TO EVEN MONTHS.

AND THAT WAS TERRIBLE.

TO THE EXTENT THAT WE COULD NOT HAVE ANTICIPATED ANYTHING.

ALSO SEEING YOUNG AND PREVIOUSLY HEALTHY PEOPLE DYING.

SO, I WOULD SAY PROBABLY EARLIEST IN THE PANDEMIC, AND THE CONFUSION WAS HIGHEST.

AND THE TRAGEDY WAS ALSO JUST REALLY PALPABLE.

WITHIN OUR LIVES, AS WELL.

CRAIG: DR. SAX, WHAT WERE THE TOUGHEST MOMENTS FOR YOU?

DR. SAX: PART OF IT WAS FIGURING OUT REALLY HOW TO MOVE FORWARD.

I AM MARRIED TO A PRIMARY CARE PEDIATRICIAN, AND HER PRACTICE HAD TO SHUT DOWN, WHICH IS VERY UNUSUAL FOR PEDIATRICIANS.

MEANWHILE, I WAS GOING INTO THE HOSPITAL EACH DAY AND NOT REALLY KNOWING HOW TO BEST MANAGE THE PATIENTS WAS VERY HARD.

PEOPLE WERE LOOKING TO INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST FOR ANSWERS BUT OF COURSE WE DIDN'’T HAVE ANY AT THE TIME.

IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT TIME.

I THINK ALL OF US HAVE SOME DEGREE OF POSTTRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER RELATED TO WHAT.

ONE THING THAT HAS BEEN GOOD HAS BEEN THE COMING TOGETHER OF THE INFECTIOUS DISEASE COMMUNITY TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER DURING THAT PERIOD.

CRAIG: WE ARE AT A VERY DIFFERENT TIME NOW.

I MEAN, IT'’S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT COVID IS NOT DONE.

WE ARE NOT DONE WITH COVID-19.

BUT THINGS FEEL VERY DIFFERENT RIGHT NOW.

AND A LOT HAS CHANGED.

I AM WONDERING IF YOU CAN SPEAK TO SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE CHANGED OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS.

I MEAN, THERE'’S TESTING AND THERAPEUTICS, VACCINATION.

TO YOU, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE MOST DIFFICULT CHANGES THAT HAVE HAPPENED, AND HOW IS THE WORLD DIFFERENT NOW THAN IT WAS THREE YEARS AGO THIS DAY?

DR. PIERRE: I DON'’T THINK WE CAN UNDERSCORE THE IMPORTANCE OF VACCINES.

OF COURSE THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS, LIKE INFECTION DERIVED IMMUNITY.

BUT VACCINES WERE THE FIRST LIGHT OF HOPE DURING THIS.

CURRENTLY I WOULD SAY THOUGH, FOR PEOPLE WHO REMAIN AT HIGH RISK FOR SEVERE COMPLICATIONS, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BRINGS ME THE GREATEST SEX AFFECTION IS TALKING -- MY GREATEST SATISFACTION IS TALKING THROUGH A CLIENT.

WHAT IS THE TREATMENT THAT EXISTS.

FOR SOME PEOPLE, THAT LIGHT HAS NOT EVEN GONE OFF.

THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD PREPARE FOR WHAT THE WORST MIGHT BE IF THEY REMAIN BACK HOME.

CRAIG: ONE OF THE THINGS I WANTED TO ASK YOU BOTH ABOUT HIS, -- IS, FOR PEOPLE WHO LOST SOMEONE TO THE PANDEMIC, CLEARLY LIFE WILL NOT BE THE SAME.

BUT ALSO FOR PEOPLE WHO DID GET THE VIRUS, A LOT OF THEM CONTINUE TO HAVE SYMPTOMS.

THERE WAS A STUDY IN THE PUBLICATION NATURE COMMUNICATIONS FROM DATA FROM THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS THAT SAID THAT COVID PATIENTS WERE 36% MORE LIKELY TO HAVE LONG-TERM GASTROINTESTINAL PROBLEMS THAN IT DID BEFORE THE INFECTION.

9605 OF THEM EXPERIENCING ISSUES AFFECTING THE DIGESTIVE SYSTEM.

THAT WAS OUT OF 154,000 PATIENTS WERE STUDIED.

ARE YOU SEEING THESE LONG-LASTING SYMPTOMS?

IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'’S STILL SO MUCH WE DO NOT KNOW ABOUT LONG COVID.

DR. SAX: ABSOLUTELY.

ONE THING THAT IS CLEAR IS THAT THE PEOPLE MOST LIKELY TO GET LONG COVID, ESPECIALLY DEBILITATING LONG COVID, ARE THOSE WHO HAVE THE MOST SEVERE INITIAL INFECTION.

THOSE SEVERE INITIAL INFECTIONS OCCURRED PREDOMINANTLY IN 2020, 2021.

THOSE PEOPLE DO NOT FEEL HEALTHY AT ALL, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE COMPLETELY RECOVERED FROM COVID-19.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS REALLY AN IMPORTANT RESEARCH AGENDA IS HOW TO MANAGE PEOPLE WITH PERSISTENT SYMPTOMS AFTER THEY HAVE RECOVERED FROM COVID.

BECAUSE WE STILL DID NOT HAVE A GOOD APPROACH TO THAT.

I WILL SAY, ON THE BRIGHT SIDE IS THAT WHILE LONG COVID STILL DOES HAPPEN WITH COVID-19 THAT OCCURS MORE RECENTLY, IT'’S LESS COMMON.

AND THAT IS BECAUSE THE DISEASE IS LESS SEVERE THAN IT ONCE WAS.

A COMBINATION OF VACCINES AND OUR INFECTION-INDUCED IMMUNITY HAS MADE COVID-19 A LESS THREATENING DISEASE THAN IT WAS, THANK GOODNESS, IN 2020 AND 021.

-- AND 2021.

CRAIG: WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ARE THE LESSONS WE HAVE LEARNED OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS?

DR. PIERRE: THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT.

FROM WHERE I SIT, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ONES, OUR COMMUNITY IS KEY.

WE WOULD NOT BE WHERE WE WERE WITHOUT OUR COMMUNITY, WITHOUT HAVING INVESTED IN ENSURING THAT OUR MESSAGING, OUR RESOURCES, OUR VACCINES, THE SCIENCE BEHIND IT WAS TRANSLATED LINGUISTICALLY AND CULTURALLY TO THE COMMUNITY AT LARGE.

IT WAS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO HAVE THEM THERE.

YOU WORRY ABOUT SO MANY THINGS SLIPPING AWAY, BUT THAT IS ONE THAT I SEE IN DURING.

WE'’RE REALLY TRYING TO CENTER COMMUNITY IN EVERYTHING THAT WE DO, WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT ANY HEALTH OUTCOMES WE HOPE TO HAVE, WE NEED TO HAVE INDIVIDUALS WITH A TRUSTED COMMUNITY BEHIND THEM.

CRAIG: DR. SAX, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY THE LESSONS ARE THAT WE DID NOT LEARN?

DR. SAX: [LAUGHS] WELL, WE REALLY SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT PARTNERS IN SCIENCE IS A PROCESS.

IT IS NOT LIKE A LIGHT GOING ON IN A DARK ROOM.

AND WE LEARN THINGS INCREMENTALLY.

SO IT IS TRUE THAT THERE MIGHT BE REVISIONS TO RECOMMENDATIONS.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE RECOMMENDATIONS ABOUT VACCINES, ABOUT MASKS, ABOUT WHETHER TO TAKE DRUGS LIKE PAXLOVID.

THEY MIGHT CHANGE AS WE LEARN MORE AND WE GO ALONG.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE TRYING TO MISLEAD PEOPLE, IT JUST MEANS THAT THE SCIENCE HAS CHANGED.

I GOING TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE RIGHT NOW.

THE TREATMENT PAXLOVID, WHICH IS VERY EFFECTIVE AT HELPING KEEPING PEOPLE OUT OF THE HOSPITAL WITH COVID-19, IS STILL VERY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE VULNERABLE TO SEVERE COVID.

THAT WOULD BE OLDER PEOPLE OR PEOPLE IMMUNOCOMPROMISED.

BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERYONE HAS TO TAKE IT.

SO RIGHT NOW THERE IS REALLY NOT A LOT OF EVIDENCE TO GIVING INTO YOUNG AND HEALTHY PEOPLE.

BUT THAT MIGHT CHANGE IF WE LEARN MORE ABOUT ANTIVIRAL THERAPY AND ITS POTENTIAL BENEFITS.

SO STAY TUNED, AND REALIZE THAT SCIENCE CAN BE REVISED.

CRAIG: ARE THERE OTHER LESSONS YOU WHICH WE HAVE LEARNED THAT WE HAVE NOT YET?

DR. PIERRE: SURE, ABSOLUTELY.

ONE BIG ONE IS THAT, WE TALK SO MUCH ABOUT RACIAL AND ETHNIC HEALTH INEQUITIES.

I FEEL LIKE I STILL REMAIN SURPRISED TO SEE GAPS IN HEALTH OUTCOMES.

ALTHOUGH WE TALK AND TALK, WE HAVE NOT REALLY MADE A POINT WITH EACH EMERGING INFECTION TO CENTER HOW INFORMATION IS SHARED.

HOW UNDERLYING HEALTH BELIEFS AND CHANNELS CAN IMPACT THE HEALTH OUTCOMES IN BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN SYSTEMATICALLY MARGINALIZED.

I THINK THAT IS A BIG ONE, AND ONE THAT WE HAVE TO DO A LOT MORE WORK ON.

CRAIG: DR. SAX, WHAT CAN WE LOOK FORWARD TO HEAR, BOTH IN TERMS OF COVID AND OTHER INFECTIONS?

I KNOW THAT RIGHT NOW ANTI-AB ARCTIC -- ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANCE IS SPREADING.

WHAT YOU EXPECT TO SEE GOING FORWARD?

DR. SAX: ONE THING I WANT TO UNDERSCORE IS THE RESEARCH ON TREATING COVID IS NOT DONE.

I RECENTLY HEARD A VERY INTERESTING CLINICAL TRIAL ON TREATMENT OF COVID WITH ANOTHER ANTIVIRAL, NOT PAXLOVID, THOUGH ONE VERY MUCH LIKE IT, THAT SHOWED VERY CONVINCINGLY THAT IF YOU INTERVIEWED PEOPLE WHO GOT THAT TREATMENT THREE AND SIX MONTHS LATER THEY HAD A LOWER RISK OF DEVELOPING LONG COVID SYMPTOMS.

THAT IS THE KIND OF PROGRESS I LOOK FORWARD TO.

AS FAR AS OTHER THINGS LIKE ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANCE, I WANT TO PUT A PITCH IN FOR OUR SPECIALTY.

FOR THOSE DOCTORS WHO ARE WONDERING WHAT TO DO, THIS IS A VERY EXCITING FIELD.

IT IS NEVER BORING.

I CANNOT SAY EITHER ONE OF US HAVE BEEN BOARD A SINGLE MOMENT THE LAST THREE YEARS, AND I AM PRETTY SURE THAT WILL BE TRUE THE REST OF MY CAREER.

CRAIG: I EXPECT IT WILL BE.

DR. PAUL SAX AND DR. CASSANDRA PIERRE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

THAT IS IT TONIGHT BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

RACHAEL ROLLINS JOINS US ON THE HEELS OF HER TRIP TO SOMA, ALABAMA TO MARK THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

I AM CRAIG LEMOULT.

GOOD NIGHT.

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