>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> Translator: I SAW THE BOYS WERE OKAY, SO I WEPT BACK TO THE BATHROOM TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH YEM, AND I SAW SHE HAD BEEN SHOT IN THE FACE.

>> EXACTLY FIVE MONTHS SINCE THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS, ABOUT HAMAS MURDERING HER HUSBAND AND DAUGHTER, AND THEN SPENDING 51 HARROWING DAYS AS THEIR CAPTIVE IN GAZA.

>>> AND PUTIN'S PROPAGANDA MACHINE WITH ELECTIONS ON THE HORIZON, WE TAKE A LOOK INSIDE RUSSIA'S MISSION TO MISINFORM THE PUBLIC.

>>> THEN GANGS RUNNING RIOT IN PORT-au-PRINCE.

A SPECIAL REPORT ON THE ESCALATING VIOLENCE IN HAITI.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, THE REAL CULTURE WARS.

PAN AMERICA'S CEO TELLS WALTER ISAACSON HOW ART SHAPES THE CONTEST BETWEEN DEMOCRACY AND AUTOCRACY.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ON THIS DAY, FIVE MONTHS AGO, OCTOBER 7th, HAMAS STORMED OUT OF GAZA ACROSS ISRAEL'S BORDER.

AND ISRAEL SAYS THEY MURDERED 1200 PEOPLE, MOSTLY CIVILIANS, AND TOOK ANOTHER 240 HOSTAGE.

NOW PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY SAY MORE THAN 30,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA IN ISRAEL'S ENSUING WAR ON HAMAS.

BUT THE HAMAS DELEGATION LEFT CEASEFIRE TALKS IN CAIRO TODAY AS NEGOTIATIONS STALLED, AND THIS LEAVES IN DOUBT THE FATE OF MORE THAN 100 ISRAELIS STILL HELD HOSTAGE.

AND ACROSS ISRAEL, FAMILIES ARE TAKING TO THE STREETS DEMANDING THEIR GOVERNMENT PRIORITIZE THEIR RELEASE.

ONE OF THE MOST FERVENT CAMPAIGNERS WAS A HOSTAGE HERSELF.

GOLDSTEIN WITNESSES HER HUSBAND AND HER ELDEST DAUGHTER MURDERED IN THEIR HOME BY HAMAS THAT DAY.

SHE AND HER THREE YOUNGEST CHILDREN WERE THEN KIDNAPPED AND HELD FOR 51 HELLISH DAYS IN GAZA.

SHE TOLD ME IN DETAIL ABOUT THAT EXPERIENCE AND THE MORAL DUTY TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO BRING HOME THOSE STILL BEING HELD.

WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

YOU HAVE GONE THROUGH THE MOST APPALLING EXPERIENCE.

YOU'VE LOST YOUR HUSBAND.

YOU'VE LOST YOUR ELDEST DAUGHTER, AND YOU'VE BEEN HELD CAPTIVE FOR MANY, MANY WEEKS.

YOU SAID YOU WERE TRYING TO GET USED TO LIFE NOW WITHOUT YOUR HUSBAND AND DAUGHTER.

ARE YOU MANAGING?

>> Translator: WITH GREAT PAIN.

LOSS IS A NEW FEELING FOR ME.

SUCH A TRAGIC AND DEEP LOSS.

IT'S SO FINAL.

OCCASIONALLY, I TOUCH THE LOSS AND GO BACK TO LIFE.

WHICH IS VERY STRONG.

IT'S HARD FOR ME TO BE IN THIS LOSS ALL THE TIME.

AND IN THIS GREAT PAIN, LOSING MY OLDEST DAUGHTER AND MY HUSBAND.

WE'RE TRYING TO BUILD SOMETHING NEW FROM THIS PAIN.

WE'RE TRYING TO BUILD SOMETHING NEW BECAUSE WE ARE ALIVE, AND WE ARE SAVED.

WE'RE TRYING TO CREATE A NEW LIFE.

>> CAN YOU TELL ME -- YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY A VERY STRONG WOMAN.

BUT CAN YOU REMIND US HOW THEY WERE KILLED, YOUR HUSBAND AND DAUGHTER ON OCTOBER 7th?

>> NADAV WAS MURDERED IN THE SAFE ROOM AS SOON AS THEY WERE BREAKING INTO THE SAFE ROOM.

HE TOOK A WOODEN PLANK TO WELCOME THE TERRORISTS WHO WERE SHOUTING TO US, AL EHUD, ALIA EHUD.

THERE WAS A SHORT PAUSE.

THEY DIDN'T BREAK IN STRAIGHT AWAY.

WE'RE IN GREAT FEAR.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS IT.

THEY'RE GOING TO COME IN AND SLAUGHTER US.

I COME YEM'S LARGE TEDDY BEAR THE SIZE OF A HUMAN, AND PUT IT ON TOP OF US TO PROTECT US FROM THE SHOOTING.

WITHIN A FEW SECONDS, FIVE OF THEM CAME INTO THE SAFE ROOM, SCREAMING.

AS I TURNED AROUND, NADAV WAS SHOT IN THE CHEST, POINT-BLANK.

I SAW TWO OR THREE WOUND SHOTS ON HIS LEFT SIDE.

NADAV IS LYING QUIETLY WITH HIS HANDS UP.

HIS LEGS ARE FOLDED.

I CAN REMEMBER THAT HE SAID "NO, NO, NO."

I CAN HEAR HIS LAST GASPS.

I REMEMBER HIM LYING QUIETLY.

THEY STARTED TO SCREAM.

THE TERRORISTS OPENED THE CLOSET, GETTING OUR CLOTHES TO GET DRESSED BECAUSE WE WERE ALL STILL IN OUR PAJAMAS, AND STARTED TO TAKE US OUT OF THE HOUSE IN A LINE.

AND WE STEPPED OVER NADAV.

THE BOYS WERE FIRST, AND THEN AGAM, YEM AND MYSELF.

IN A LINE TOWARDS THE TOILETS AND THE CHILDREN'S BATHROOM, WHICH IS NEXT TO THE SAFE ROOM.

THERE WAS A STAGE WHERE ONE OF THE TERRORISTS IDENTIFIED A UNIFORM SHIRT OF YAM'S, MY DAUGHTER, LOOKED AT IT.

AND I REMEMBER HIS WIG GREEN EYES WHILE SHOUTING AT ME IN ARABIC AND ASKING SOMETHING.

YAM TOLD ME SHE THOUGHT HE WAS ASKING WHETHER THERE WAS A WEAPON IN THE HOUSE.

I SAID NO.

AND THEN WE WERE GOING OUT, AND YEM WAS STUCK NEXT TO THE DOOR FRAME.

SHE DIDN'T MOVE.

WE UNDERSTOOD THAT SHE MUST HAVE FAINTED.

AGAM MUST HAVE LAID HER DOWN, AS I DON'T REMEMBER I HAVE.

ON THE FLOOR OF THE BATHROOM.

HER FEET WERE UNDER THE CABINET, AND SHE HAD FAINTED.

I WANTED TO SPRAY HER WITH WATER AS I COULDN'T APPROACH HER.

THERE WAS SOME BROKEN GLASS ON THE FLOOR FROM THE SHOWER CUBICLE.

I WAS BAREFOOT AND TOOK SOME WATER FROM THE TAP TRYING TO WET HER FACE SO THAT SHE WOULD WAKE UP.

SHE RESPONDED A LITTLE BIT.

AND I WENT OUT, RUNNING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE BOYS AND AGAM.

WHERE THEY WERE TAKEN, BECAUSE THEY HAD ALREADY GONE OUT.

I SAW THE BOYS WERE OKAY, SO I WENT BACK TO THE BATHROOM TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH YEM, AND I SAW THAT SHE HAD BEEN SHOT IN THE FACE.

IT WAS DREADFUL.

I WAS COMPLETELY SHOCKED AS WHAT I SAW ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

IT WAS ONLY A FEW SECONDS.

I DIDN'T TRY TO TAKE CARE OF HER AND I DIDN'T SAY GOODBYE.

I WAS RUNNING OUT TO THE KIDS.

I CAN REMEMBER THE DIFFICULT SIGHT, HER FACE WITH A BULLET HOLE.

AND CONVULSIONS.

I REMEMBER IN GAZA, EVERY EVENING, I PROMISED MYSELF NOT TO FORGET THIS DREADFUL SITE.

THAT SITE IS GETTING BLURRIER OVER TIME, BUT IT'S SUCH A SHOCK.

AND THAT'S IT.

I'M OUT.

I'M GOING OUT.

I DON'T SAY GOODBYE.

NONE OF US DID.

>> CHEM, I WANT TO SAY THAT IT'S REALLY HARD JUST TO HEAR THIS FROM YOU.

IT'S REALLY HARD TO LISTEN TO YOU.

SO I CANNOT IMAGINE FOR YOU WHAT IT MUST BE TO HAVE LIVED THROUGH THIS AND TO TALK ABOUT IT NOW.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

>> Translator: SO THE KIDS WERE OUTSIDE, AND THEY PUT US IN NADAV'S CAR.

THEY LOOKED FOR THE KEYS, AND THEY TRIED TO START NADAV'S CAR, TRYING TO START IT UP.

THEY BROUGHT MY CAR KEYS AND WERE GOING OUT OF THE PARKING AREA, AND WE WERE ALL ON OUR WAY TO GAZA.

THEY TURNED LEFT IN THE GRAVEL PARKING OUTSIDE, AND WE TOOK A LEFT TURN.

TWO TERRORISTS WERE SITTING IN THE CAR WITH US.

ONE IS DRIVING AND THE OTHER ONE IS NEXT TO HIM, AND THEY'RE ALL HAPPY, TAKING SELFIES.

THE FENCE IS WIDE OPEN, AND WE'RE GOING INTO GAZA IN MY CAR.

WE'RE SHOCKED.

AND BOTH TRYING TO DIGEST WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

NADAV AND YAN'S MURDERS.

I UNDERSTAND THEY'RE NO LONGER WITH, THOUGH I HAVE SOME HOPE MAYBE THE ARMY FORCES WILL COME AND MANAGE TO HELP THEM.

ON OUR WAY TO GAZA, NEAR A FENCE, THEY WERE LOADING BODIES INTO THE BOOT, WHICH IS NOT SEPARATED FROM THE BACK SEAT OF THE CAR.

I'M SAYING TO THE BOYS NOT TO LOOK.

I'M NOT SURE IF THE BODIES WERE FROM OUR SIDE OR THEIRS.

THAT'S IT.

WE'RE IN GAZA.

I CAN REMEMBER AN AMBULANCE OF THE RED CROSS PARKED ON THE SIDE.

AND I REMEMBER LOOKING AT THEM.

AND I'M PLEADING TO THEM WITH MY HANDS, WITH HELPLESSNESS.

AND THEY WERE LOOKING AT US WITH AN EXPRESSION OF WE CAN'T HELP YOU.

THEN THEY WERE STOPPING MY CAR, MOVING US TO A DIFFERENT VEHICLE.

I CAN REMEMBER GAZA WAS A DESERTED PLACE.

THERE WERE NOT MANY PEOPLE.

AND MANY PAPERS, PAMPHLETS AROUND.

AND IN A FEW MINUTES, WE WERE IN A PRIVATE HOUSE.

A GATE OPENS.

THE CAR IS GOING IN, AND THE GATE IS LOCKED.

WE CAN SEE OUTSIDE A SITTING AREA, SOFAS AND A TUNNEL SHAFT ENTRY AS WELL.

IN A FEW MINUTES, THEY'RE TAKING US INTO THE TUNNEL.

I CAN REMEMBER THE LOOKS OF MY SONS IN THE CAR, LOOKS I WILL NEVER FORGET.

ASKING ME, MOM, WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR LIPS?

MY LIPS MUST HAVE BEEN SO WHITE AND DRY.

AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THE REFLECTION OF MY ANXIETY HAS REACHED THEM, AND THAT I NEED TO BE STRONG AND TO FUNCTION AS LONG AS I'M ALIVE.

AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO, TO BE STRONG, AND TO TAKE CARE OF MYSELF AND SAVE THEM.

AND WE SURVIVED.

THIS IS WHAT WE'VE TRIED TO DO, IN THIS HELL IN GAZA FOR 51 DAYS.

WE WERE A TUNNEL AT THE BEGINNING, IN FLATS, AND AT THE END IN A TUNNEL AGAIN.

>> CHEN, IT IS JUST HELLACIOUS TO LISTEN TO YOU.

I WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU SURVIVED THOSE 51 DAYS OF HELL, AS YOU SAY.

HOW WERE YOU TREATED BY YOUR CAPTORS?

AND WERE YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN HELD IN THE SAME PLACE, OR WERE YOU SEPARATED?

>> VERY DIFFICULT 51 DAYS.

THE CONTROL OF OUR LIFE IS TAKEN AWAY FROM US.

AND TRY TO LOOK AFTER MYSELF AND TO BE OKAY IN THIS HELLISH REALITY, BUT IT'S ALL IN THE CONTROL OF OUR CAPTORS.

WHEN WE'RE GOING TO EAT, IF WE'RE GOING TO EAT.

THEY TRY TO PROVIDE US WITH FOOD.

THERE WAS MORE AT THE BEGINNING, BUT LESS LATER.

DRINKING WATER WAS LIMITED.

SOMETIMES 330 MILLILITER IN 24 HOURS.

IT WAS VERY STRESSFUL FOR ME.

THE LACK OF WATER IS DIFFICULT TO LIVE WITH.

WHILE SHORTAGE OF FOOD YOU CAN LIVE WITH, BUT WATER LIMITATION IS VERY STRESSFUL.

DIFFICULT CONDITIONS WHEN YOU'RE SHUT IN A FLAT.

TRYING TO OPEN THE WINDOWS A LITTLE BIT, BUT THERE WERE HEAVY CURTAINS, SO NOT MUCH VENTILATION.

I'M TRYING TO PUSH MY BODY TOWARDS SOME BALCONY DOOR EACH MORNING TO GET SOME FRESH AIR.

AND THEN TOWARDS 4:30 OR 5:00, IT BECOMES DARK.

YOU USE A FLASHLIGHT AND THEN CANDLES, AND YOU'RE WORRIED THAT THE CANDLES WILL CAUSE FIRE.

THERE IS INCREDIBLE BOMBARDMENT OF THE ISRAELI AIR FORCE AND ARTILLERY.

SERIOUS FEAR.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT THEY'RE MERE COGS IN THE SYSTEM, THE CAPTORS, AND WE'RE HOPING THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE INSTRUCTIONS TO KILL US, AND THAT THEY WOULD DO IT.

WE WOULD ASK THEM, AND THEY TOLD US THAT THEY WERE GUARDING US AND THAT THEY HOPED WE WERE GOING TO BE OKAY AND THAT WE WERE NOT GOING TO DIE, THAT THEY WERE GOING TO DIE AHEAD OF US OR WE WERE GOING TO DIE TOGETHER.

THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO CALM US DOWN.

WE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO CRY.

THEY WANTED US HAPPY AND TOLD US TO BE OKAY.

IF WE CRIED, WE HAD TO SNAP OUT OF IT OR HIDE IT.

IT'S A KIND OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE THAT THEY DIDN'T LET US CRY.

AGAM USED TO SIT DOWN AND STARE, AND THEY WOULD SAY, "WHAT ARE YOU STARING AT?

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?"

THERE WAS NO PERSONAL SPACE.

THEY SAID TO US "WE ARE NOT THINKING."

>> CHEN, WERE YOU ABUSED OR YOUR CHILDREN?

WERE YOU ABUSED PHYSICALLY BY THEM?

>> Translator: THEY DIDN'T HATE US, BUT I DID DESCRIBE ABUSE.

IF YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND, I WILL REPEAT.

NOT TO LET A PERSON CRY OR GIVE THEM PRIVACY OR TAKE CONTROL OF OUR LIFE, THIS IS ABUSE.

MENTAL ABUSE.

THEY PUT US IN TRADITIONAL CLOTHES IN ORDER TO MOVE US FROM APARTMENT TO ANOTHER.

WHICH IS SUPPOSEDLY AN EXTERNAL ACT, BUT AGAM AND I LOOKED AT EACH OTHER THE FIRST TIME WE DID IT, AND WE CRIED.

YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND, THEY TOOK OUR IDENTITY AWAY.

IT WAS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FOR US.

THIS IS ALSO ABUSE.

THEY DIDN'T HATE US.

THERE WASN'T ANY SEXUAL ABUSE.

THEY HUMILIATED US, THOUGH.

SOMETIMES MOCKING US.

THEY TALKED TO US ABOUT GILAD SHALIT AND LAUGHED.

THEY TOLD US THAT WE HAD BEEN FORGOTTEN, THAT THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING FOR ISRAEL WAS FIGHTING.

THIS IS ALSO A TYPE OF ABUSE.

>> I KNOW IT'S ALL ABUSE, AND I -- IT'S VERY HARD TO LISTEN TO THIS.

AND I WONDER, YOU SAID THERE WAS NO SEXUAL ABUSE.

YOU MAY HAVE HEARD STORIES THAT HAVE SUBSEQUENTLY BEEN REPORTED ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE AGAINST SOME OF THE WOMEN HOSTAGES.

AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU WERE AFRAID FOR YOURSELF OR FOR YOUR DAUGHTER THAT THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SEXUAL ABUSE?

AND DID YOU HEAR STORIES FROM OTHER WOMEN ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE COMMITTED AGAINST ANY ONE OF THEM?

>> Translator: WE HEARD STORIES ABOUT CRUEL SEXUAL ATTACKS.

I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO IT AGAIN, FOLLOWING THE FAMILIES' REQUESTS.

THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR RETURN BACK TO ISRAEL AND THEIR REHABILITATION AND ASKED US NOT TO SPEAK ABOUT IT ANYMORE.

WE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT IT IN INTERVIEWS IN ORDER TO GET INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT, BUT WE WILL NOW RESPECT THE FAMILIES' REQUESTS NOT TO DISCUSS THE HORRENDOUS SEXUAL ABUSE CASES THAT TOOK PLACE.

AGAM AND I WERE WORRIED.

SHE WAS WORRIED THAT SHE WOULD BE ASSAULTED.

AND EVERY TIME SHE WENT TO THE KITCHEN TO HELP COOKING, FOR EXAMPLE, I WENT TO THE KITCHEN WITH HER TO GUARD HER.

I COULDN'T LET HER GO.

I WOULD GO TO THE KITCHEN TO MAKE SURE SHE WAS OKAY.

>> CHEN, IT MUST HAVE BEEN SO AWFUL AS A MOTHER AS WELL.

AND I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU HAD ANY CONVERSATIONS WITH THE HAMAS CAPTORS, WHETHER THERE WAS ANYTHING BEYOND THE SURVIVAL NEEDS, BEYOND THE NEED TO STAY ALIVE, WHETHER YOU HAD ANY, I DON'T KNOW, POLITICAL CONVERSATIONS OR ANY OTHER.

YOU'RE A SOCIAL WORKER, I BELIEVE.

SO I WONDER WHETHER YOU THOUGHT THAT POTENTIALLY SAVING YOUR LIFE MEANT TRYING TO ENGAGE THEM, TRYING TO TALK TO THEM.

>> YES.

THERE WERE MANY IMPORTANT CONVERSATIONS THAT WERE QUITE DEEP AND EVEN TOUCHED UPON THE DEPTH OF THE CONFLICT.

FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF OUR CAPTORS, WE WERE THE ONES WHO DEPORTED THEM AND MURDERED THEM IN 1948.

AT THIS STAGE OF THE CONVERSATIONS, AGAM AND I WOULD STOP.

WE DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE DIFFICULTY DISCUSSIONS WITH THEM.

WE WANTED TO KEEP THE RELATIONSHIP REASONABLE.

AFTER ALL, THEY SUPPOSEDLY TOOK CARE OF US.

ALSO, WE'RE NOT FAMILIAR WITH ALL THE DETAILS OF THE CONFLICT.

AND THEY TOLD US TO READ BOOKS AND GAIN KNOWLEDGE.

AGAM ASKED THEM SOME CHALLENGING QUESTIONS.

SHE ASKED IF ACCORDING TO THE KORAN YOU'RE ALLOWED TO KIDNAP PEOPLE FROM THEIR HOMES IN THEIR PAJAMAS.

THEY DISCUSSED IT AMONG THEMSELVES.

THEY DEBATED AGAM'S QUESTION AMONG THEMSELVES, AND IT WASN'T EASY FOR THEM.

SOMETIMES WE SAW THEM CRYING, WORRIED ABOUT THEIR WIVES AND WRITING LETTERS TO THEIR WIVES.

WE WERE WORRIED ABOUT IT.

WE WERE WORRIED ABOUT THE TIMING.

IF AGAM SHOULD WORRY WHETHER THEY ARE WRITING FAREWELL LETTERS TO THEIR WIVES.

WE WERE WITH THEM 24/7, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK FOR FIVE WEEKS, SOME FOR LONGER.

THEY WERE WITH US THE WHOLE TIME.

SOMETIMES THERE WAS LAUGHTER AND AT OTHER TIMES THERE WAS CRYING AND ANGER.

WE CONFRONTED THEM ABOUT NADAV'S AND YAM'S MURDERS, AND THEY APOLOGIZED, SAYING IN CASE THEY HAD BEEN MURDERED BY MISTAKE, THEY ACTUALLY SAID "MISTAKE," A WORD THAT'S DIFFICULT TO LIVE WITH, OR FOR NO GOOD REASON, THEN THE MURDERER WOULD BE JUDGED ON THE DAY OF HIS DEATH.

ALLAH WOULD ASK HIM WHY DID YOU MURDER THEM.

AND IF HE MURDERED THEM FOR NO GOOD REASON, THE SAME MURDERER WOULD GO TO HELL AND NOT TO HEAVEN.

THE SAME MURDERER, IF HE MURDERED FOR NO REASON, HE WOULD GO TO HELL.

THAT'S WHAT THEY WOULD TELL US.

THERE WERE CONVERSATIONS, AND IT WAS OUR WAY TO SURVIVE AND HAVE A RELATIONSHIP THAT WE NATURALLY NEEDED IN ORDER TO SURVIVE AND GET WHAT WE NEEDED.

FOOD, SOMETIMES A GAME FOR THE KIDS OR PEN, PAPER.

THEY TOLD US TO BE QUIET.

WE COULDN'T BEAR IT ANYMORE SOMETIMES.

SILENCING KIDS IS ALSO A TYPE OF ABUSE.

YOU ASKED ABOUT IT EARLIER.

TO SHUT A CHILD FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD IN A ROOM, NOT LETTING HIM SPACE AND TAKE HIS FREEDOM AWAY, THIS IS A TYPE OF ABUSE.

REGARDING YOUR QUESTION EARLIER, IT IS ABUSE.

THE KIDS WITNESSED THE MURDERS OF THEIR FATHER AND THEIR SISTER.

THIS IS SHOCKING ASSAULT ON THEM.

>> WERE YOU AS SCARED, OR WERE YOU AT ALL SCARED OF THE ISRAELI BOMBARDMENT AS YOU WERE BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY THESE PEOPLE WHO WERE EXTREMELY SCARY?

>> Translator: IT WAS VERY SCARY.

THE ARTILLERY AND THE AIR FORCE.

WE WERE ALSO AFRAID OF THE GAZANS AS OUR GUARDS WERE PROTECTING US AGAINST THE GAZAN CROWDS.

WE WERE AFRAID OF OUR OWN SOLDIERS TOO.

AND THE ATTACKS BY OUR OWN SOLDIERS, WHICH IS ABSURD.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK NOW THAT YOU ARE OUT AGAIN ABOUT THE HOSTAGES THAT ARE STILL THERE?

DO YOU BELIEVE -- BECAUSE I THINK YOU'RE TAKING PART IN THE DEMANDS OF YOUR GOVERNMENT, TO PUT THE HOSTAGES FIRST?

WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULD HAPPEN NOW AS THIS WAR CONTINUES?

>> WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING TO RELEASE THEM.

THEY ARE DYING THERE.

THEY SHOULD BE A PRIORITY.

EACH NEWS BROADCAST SHOULD START SAYING THAT EVERYTHING SHOULD BE DONE FOR THEIR RELEASE.

EACH PUBLIC FIGURE, THE IDF SPOKESPERSON SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THEM.

THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY STATEMENTS ABOUT THIS IS A HEAVY PRICE, OR THIS DEAL IS UNREASONABLE.

IS IT REASONABLE THAT THE HOSTAGES, MEN, WOMEN, CHILDREN, THE ELDERLY ARE THERE?

IT IS NOT REASONABLE THAT THEY ARE THERE.

SO I HAVE GREAT DIFFICULTY ACCEPTING THESE STATEMENTS.

WE SHOULD DO EVERYTHING IN OUR HANDS AND COMPROMISE AND GIVE UP THE EGO IN ORDER TO RELEASE THEM.

IT'S HELL THERE, AND I CAN TESTIFY THAT IT IS REALLY DIFFICULT AND DANGEROUS TO BE THERE EVERY DAY, EVERY HOUR.

.

>> AND I'M STRUCK BY HOW WHEN YOU WERE RELEASED, SOME OF THE OTHER WOMEN HOSTAGES WHO REMAINED, THEY SAID TO YOU, "DON'T FORGET US."

>> Translator: THEIR VOICE IS IN OUR HEARTS AND IN OUR THOUGHTS, THE VOICES THAT WE SHOULD FIGHT FOR THEM AND NOT FORGET THEM, AND THAT WE SHOULD DO EVERYTHING LIKE GOING TO RALLIES, SPEAKING ON THEIR BEHALF, TO EVERYTHING TO RELEASE THEM.

THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE GOING TO BE NEXT IN LINE.

THE FEMALE CIVILIANS AND THE WOUNDED AND THE SOLDIERS AND THE ELDERLY.

THEY WERE ANTICIPATING THEIR RELEASE.

AND SINCE THEN, THREE MONTHS PASSED.

IT'S UNBELIEVABLE THIS LONG TIME HAS PASSED.

AND WE DON'T EVEN KNOW THEIR FATE.

THE PEOPLE IN THE GAZA STRIP DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THEIR LOVED ONES.

UNOUR UNCERTAINTY REGARDING THE HOSTAGES AND OUR UNCERTAINTY REGARDING WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE, WE NEED THE RELEASE THEM.

SOME OF THEM ARE INJURED WITH COMPLICATED INJURIES.

SOME WITH MENTAL INJURIES.

WE SHOULD DO EVERYTHING TO RELEASE THEM.

WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO EXIST NOR OUR SOCIETY IF WE DON'T BRING THEM BACK.

THIS IS A MORAL DUTY.

>> WELL, ALL I'M GOING TO SAY IS THAT, CHEN, THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US ABOUT SUCH DIFFICULT THINGS, AND YOU SEEM TO BE AN INCREDIBLE STRONG WOMAN WITH A HUGE AMOUNT OF FAITH AND HOPE FOR YOUR FELLOW HOSTAGES THAT ARE LEFT BEHIND.

AND YOU HAVE TO KEEP YOUR FAMILY TOGETHER IN SUCH TRAGEDY.

SO WE REALLY WISH YOU THE BEST, AND WE THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TAKINGING THE TIME TO TELL US ABOUT IT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> IS THERE ANY THING THAT I HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT YOU WANTED TO TELL ME?

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT'S IMPORTANT TO YOU NOW THAT I HAVEN'T ASKED YOU?

>> Translator: IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SAY THAT FROM THE LAST WEEK THAT I WAS WITH THE GIRLS IN THE TUNNEL, THEY DO EVERYTHING TO SURVIVE AND LIVE.

INJURED GIRLS WITH MISSING LIMBS.

ONE OF THEM WITH AN INJURY ON HER RIGHT ARM AND COULD NOT EVEN MOVE HER HAND IS LEARNING TO DO EVERYTHING WITH HER LEFT HAND.

DO WE AS A SOCIETY AND THE WORLD DO EVERYTHING FOR THEM?

I CAN TESTIFY THAT IT IS HELL THERE.

AND I MUST SAY THAT I'M SORRY THAT I WAS HARSH, AGGRESSIVE WHEN YOU DESCRIBED ABUSE.

THERE WAS ABUSE THERE THROUGHOUT.

AND EVEN IF IT WASN'T RAPE, IT WAS STILL ABUSE TO TAKE OUR FREEDOM AWAY, TO ELIMINATE CONTROL OF OUR LIFE, OR FORCE THE CHILDREN TO BE QUIET, NOT HAVING YOUR PERSONAL SPACE AND HUNGER AND TERRIBLE HYGIENIC CONDITIONS.

THIS IS ABUSE.

TAKING OUR IDENTITY, FORCING US TO WEAR DIFFERENT CLOTHES.

YES, THIS IS ABUSE.

>> CHEN, LISTEN, I UNDERSTAND, AND YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE AGGRESSIVE WITH ME.

>> OKAY.

>> OKAY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AND OF COURSE WITH THE COLLAPSE OF ANY CEASEFIRE TALKS, IT MEANS CHEN AND HER FELLOW FORMER HOSTAGES AND THE FAMILIES IN ISRAEL WILL NOT GET ANY RELIEF ANY TIME SOON, AND THAT NOR WILL THE CIVILIANS IN GAZA GET ANY HUMANITARIAN RELIEF ANY TIME SOON.

AND THIS JUST CONTINUES.

AND A NOTE ABOUT CHEN SAYING THAT SHE SAW A RED CROSS AMBULANCE IN GAZA ON OCTOBER 7th.

WE DID ASK THE INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE OF RED CROSS.

THEY TOLD NEWS THE STATEMENT THAT IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ONE OF THEIRS AS THE ICRC DOES NOT OPERATE AMBULANCES IN GAZA.

>>> NOW PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN ADDRESSES A DIVIDED NATION IN TONIGHT'S STATE OF THE UNION.

HIS SPEECH COMES BEFORE A GRIDLOCKED CONGRESS OVER MASSIVE ISSUES LIKE THE BORDER AND SUPPORTING UKRAINE'S DEFENSE AGAINST VLADIMIR PUTIN.

DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICANS ARE STILL HOLDING UP A $60 BILLION MILITARY AND FINANCIAL AID PACKAGE TO UKRAINE.

AND SEVERE PAIN IS BEING FELT ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

MEANTIME, PRESIDENT PUTIN'S PROPAGANDA MISSION IS RAMPING UP AHEAD OF HIS MISSION NEXT WEEK, UNCONTESTED FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, AS CLARE SEBASTIAN REPORTS.

>> Reporter: FLYING INTO A FIFTH TERM.

THE ROAR OF PUTIN'S NUCLEAR CAPABLE STRATEGIC BOMBER ALMOST AS LOUD AS THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE PROPELLING HIM FORWARD.

THIS IS PUTIN'S DESIRED PREELECTION IMAGE.

STRONG, VIGOROUS, CALLING THE SHOTS IN HIS SO-CALLED SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION.

AND LETTING HIS CHIEF PROPAGANDISTS CAMPAIGN ON HIS BEHALF ON STATE TV.

>> Reporter: AS WE GET CLOSER TO ELECTIONS IN RUSSIA IN MARCH, WE'RE SEEING MORE AND MORE OF THIS MORE OBVIOUS PROPAGANDA.

THERE ARE ALSO SLIGHTLY MORE SUBTLE TACTICS AT PLAY, AND THE MOST PROMINENT OF THOSE IS THE CONSTANT SCAPEGOATING, OR EVEN OUTRIGHT TROLLING OF THE U.S. ONE POPULAR TALK SHOW PLAYED THIS SPLIT SCREEN ON THE LOOP.

PUTIN BOARDING HIS BOMBER, BIDEN TRIPPING UP THE STEPS OF AIR FORCE ONE.

NEWS REPORTS ON THE WAR IN UKRAINE REGULARLY SHOWING OFF THE WRECKAGE OF WESTERN WEAPONS.

THERE IS EVEN A DISCARDED STARLINK ANTENNA.

BORIS AKUNIN, ONE OF RUSSIA'S MOST POPULAR AUTHORS, SAYS THE WEST NEEDS TO TAKE NOTICE OF THIS.

>> PAINTING THE PICTURE OF THE OUTSIDE WORLD AS SOMETHING HOSTILE SO THAT PEOPLE WOULD UNITE AROUND HIM.

WHEN THE WAR STARTED, A LOT OF RUSSIANS EMIGRATED.

THEN THEY MET WITH HOSTILITY.

A LOT OF THEM HAD TO RETURN.

AND EVERY SINGLE CASE HAS BEEN USED BY PUTIN'S PROPAGANDA TO STRENGTHEN THIS IDEA THAT WE ARE TOGETHER.

WE ARE A BESIEGED CAMP.

>> Reporter: ALEXEI NAVALNY KNEW HOW TO GET AROUND PUTIN'S PROPAGANDA MACHINE AND ITS LONG-STANDING POLICY OF IGNORING HIM.

FROM THIS CRAMPED MOSCOW HEADQUARTERS, WHICH I VISITED IN 2017, HE AND HIS COLLEAGUES BEAMED THEIR MESSAGE TO MILLIONS OF RUSSIANS VIA YOUTUBE.

AND YET HIS DEATH WAS SOMETHING STATE MEDIA TEMPORARILY FOUND ITSELF UNABLE TO IGNORE.

FIRST DISCREDITING HIS LEGACY.

THEN BLAMING THE WEST.

FINALLY, TURNING ON HIS WIDOW, YULIA.

>> FOR AKUNIN, NAVALNY'S DEATH IS MORE THAN JUST A PROPAGANDA CHALLENGE.

IT SIGNALS PROPAGANDA MAY BE TAKING A BACK SEAT TO A MUCH BLUNTER INSTRUMENT OF CONTROL, OUTRIGHT REPRESSION.

>> BY KILLING ALEXEI NAVALNY, THEY LOST THE LAST CHANCE OF TRYING TO PRETEND THAT THEY WERE LEGAL DESCENT, LAW-ABIDING.

INTIMIDATION IS NOW GOING TO BE THE MAIN INSTRUMENT.

>> THAT WAS CLARE SEBASTIAN REPORTING.

AND A NOTE, THE KREMLIN SAYS ACCUSATIONS THAT IT WAS BEHIND NAVALNY'S DEATH ARE UNFOUNDED.

>>> TURNING NOW TO HAITI, WHICH IS EXTENDING A STATE OF EMERGENCY FOR ANOTHER MONTH, THE U.S. IS CALLING FOR, QUOTE, URGENT MOVEMENT TOWARDS A PRELIMINARY TRANSITION AS GANGS RUN RIOT IN THE CAPITAL AND OPPOSITION GROUPS DEMAND PRIME MINISTER ARIEL HENRI'S RESIGNATION.

THE U.N. IS URGING THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO HELP RESTORE LAW AND ORDER, AS CORRESPONDENT DAVID CALVER REPORTS.

>> Reporter: A MAJOR ESCALATION OF GANG VIOLENCE IS TAKING HAITI HOSTAGE.

SCENES LIKE THIS PLAYING OUT IN PORT-au-PRINCE WEDNESDAY.

BANKS LOOTED, WITH ATMs SMASHED OPEN.

PEOPLE SCRAMBLING TO GATHER WHATEVER THEY CAN.

SEVERAL POLICE STATIONS BOMBED OUT BY POWERFUL GANGS, WHO NOW FREELY STROLL THROUGH THE STREETS.

THE RISING ANGER DIRECTED TOWARDS PRIME MINISTER ARIEL HENRI.

ONE GANG LEADER IN THE CAPITAL THREATENING THAT IF HENRI DOES NOT STEP DOWN, IT WILL MEAN GENOCIDE FOR THE HAITIAN PEOPLE, AND IT IS MOST OFTEN THE PEOPLE WHO PAY THE PRICE.

WE WERE IN HAITI JUST BEFORE THIS RECENT SURGE IN VIOLENCE.

PEOPLE VENTING TO US THEIR FRUSTRATIONS, WANTING HENRI TO GO, AND BARRICADING THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS TO STOP WOULD-BE GANG KIDNAPPERS.

PERHAPS THE BIGGEST INDICATOR OF DYSFUNCTION COMES FROM THE TOP.

ALL OF THIS HAPPENING WHILE A MAJOR MYSTERY LOOMS.

WHERE EXACTLY IS PRIME MINISTER HENRI?

HE WAS LAST SEEN LAST WEEK SIGNING AN AGREEMENT IN KENYA, SECURING THE DEPLOYMENT OF KENYAN POLICE OFFICERS TO HAITI, EXPECTED TO ARRIVE ANY DAY NOW.

THE JAIME HERALD SAYS HENRI THEN BOARDED A FLIGHT THAT WENT FIRST TO THE U.S. AND THEN ON TOWARD HAITI'S ISLAND NEIGHBOR, THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, FOR AN INDEFINITE STOPOVER.

BUT OFFICIALS IN THE DR BLOCKED HIS ARRIVAL.

INSTEAD, HENRI'S PLANET WENT ON THE PUERTO RICO.

THE "MIAMI HERALD" REPORTING THAT HENRI WAS MID FLIGHT WHEN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ASKED HIM TO AGREE TO A NEW TRANSITIONAL GOVERNMENT AND RESIGN.

THE WHITE HOUSE PUSHING BACK ON THAT.

>> WE ARE DEFINITELY NOT PUSHING THE PRIME MINISTER TO RESIGN.

THAT IS NOT WHAT WE'RE DOING.

BUT WE HAVE UNDERSCORED THAT NOW IS THE TIME TO FINALIZE A POLITICAL ACCORD TO HELP SET HAITI ON A PATH TO A BETTER FUTURE.

>> WHERE HENRI IS NOW IS NOT CLEAR, NOR IS THE DIRECTION OF HIS COUNTRY, WHICH IS INCREASINGLY UNDER THE TIGHTENING GRIP OF GAMES.

GANGS.

>> THE ETERNAL SUFFERING OF HAITI.

THAT WAS DAVID CULVER REPORTING.

>>> FROM HAITI TO GAZA TO UKRAINE, THE WORLD OF COURSE IS RACKED WITH CONFLICT AND INSTABILITY, WHILST POLITICAL LEADERS WRANGLE WITH POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC SOLUTIONS.

OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES IT IS THE ARTS THAT COULD MAKE THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE.

SUZANNE NOSSEL IS PRESIDENT OF PAN AMERICA FOR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

AND JOINING WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HER LATEST ESSAY.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE AND SUZANNE NOSSEL.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU WROTE THIS GREAT PIECE IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS MAGAZINE.

WILL YOU TALK ABOUT HOW HOW CULTURE AND ART ARE GOING TO BE CRUCIAL TO HOW WE SEE THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY IN A TIME OF CONFLICT NOW.

TELL ME WHY YOU WROTE THE PIECE NOW.

WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO SAY.

>> SOMETHING THAT HAS OCCURRED TO ME FOR A LONG TIME, WHICH IS THAT WE SEE AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS AND RULERS PUTTING SO MUCH EMPHASIS ON CONTROLLING NARRATIVES AND CULTURE.

XI JINPING PROPROPOUNDING HIS PRINCIPLES, A LITTLE RED BOOK AND INVESTING IN A PUBLISHING CONFERENCE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES TO SPREAD THOSE IDEAS AROUND THE WORLD.

IN RUSSIA, ELEVATING AND TRYING TO REHABILITATE STALIN AND RETELL THE STORY OF HIS RULE, DIGGING UP GRAVES TO TRY TO CONTRADICT THE PREVAILING NARRATIVE, JAILING HISTORIANS WHO EXPOSE THE TRUTH.

SHUTTING DOWN ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE FOCUSED ON HISTORICAL MEMORY.

AND SO WITNESSING THE DEGREE TO WHICH AUTHORITARIANS HAVE ZEROED IN ON CULTURE AS A CENTERPIECE OF HOW THEIR ADVANCING THEIR OWN AGENDA, HOW THEY'RE SUSTAINING CONTROL, HOW THEY'RE PROJECTING A GLOBAL IMAGE, I WANTED TO FOCUS ON THE ROLE OF DEMOCRACIES AND WHAT DEMOCRACIES COULD DO TO ENGAGE CULTURE.

CULTURE IS A TOOL THAT HAS TO SOME DEGREE BEEN LEFT ON THE SIDELINE.

>> YOU'VE MENTIONED HISTORY AS BEING ONE OF THE BATTLEFIELDS OF CULTURE, WHETHER IT BE IN CHINA, AND OF COURSE YOU JUST SAID IN THE UNITED STATES, THIS NOTION THAT WE'RE FIGHTING OVER HOW TO DO OUR HISTORY.

BUT WHY IS IT RIGHT NOW THAT RECAPTURING HISTORY HAS BECOME SUCH A FLASH POINT, WHETHER IT BE CHINA OR THE UNITED STATES?

>> WELL, I THINK HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, WE'RE AT THE INFLECTION POINT SOME WAYS IS A PLURALISTIC SOCIETY WHERE WE'RE ON THE CUSP OF HAVING NO ONE SINGLE RACIAL MAJORITY IN OUR POPULATION.

AND THAT IS A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE.

AND WE'RE WRESTLING WITH WHAT THAT MEANS.

WE SEE THIS IN OUR WORK ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

AND THE SORT OF TENSION BETWEEN THE EFFORT TO MAKE IT THE CAMPUS A MORE DIVERSE, EQUAL, AND INCLUSIVE PLACE, IF YOU WILL, AND THE ROBUST PROTECTION OF FREE SPEECH AND ACADEMIC FREEDOM.

I THINK THE CHANGES IN OUR POPULATION AND A MOVE TOWARD A MORE PLOOIRLSIC SOCIETY, THEY'RE TESTING SOME OF THESE CORE PRINCIPLES IN TERMS OF HOW WE THINK ABOUT OUR HISTORY AND INTEGRATING PERSPECTIVES.

I ALSO THINK THERE IS SOME HOPEFUL SIGNS IN OW INSTITUTIONS, A PLACE LIKE MONTICELLO HAS COME, JEFFERSON'S HOME, HOW THEY'VE COME TO INTEGRATE THE HISTORY OF HIS ROLE AS A SLAVE OWNER AND THE SLAVES ON THE PLANTATION THERE ALONGSIDE HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS A STATESMAN AND A VISIONARY.

THEY DON'T ERASE ANYTHING.

THEY ADD TO THE STORY.

AND I THINK SORT OF AS A SOCIETY, WE'RE WRESTLING WITH WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE FOR US KIND OF WRIT LARGE AND IN OUR CURRICULUM.

AND I THINK IN A PLACE LIKE CHINA, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE'RE LIVING IN A SMALLER WORLD, THERE IS A RECOGNITION THAT -- AND PEOPLE ARE BETTER INFORMED.

SUDDENLY YOU HAVE A HIGHLY LITERAL POPULATION.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THESE BATTLES OF IDEAS I THINK MATTER NOT JUST AMONG ELITES, AS THEY ALWAYS DID, BUT IN A MUCH MORE POPULAR SENSE.

AND IT'S BECOME A CENTRAL KIND OF FRONTIER OF CONTESTATION BOTH WITHIN CHINA TO HOLD TOGETHER NARRATIVES THAT KEEPS PEOPLE MORE OR LESS QUIESCENT AND THE IMAGE THEY'RE TRYING TO PROJECT.

>> YOU GO AROUND THE WORLD.

EVERYBODY IS WATCHING AMERICAN MOVIES, WEARING NIKE SHOES, TV SHOWS, MUSIC, THE INTERNET.

ISN'T IT BETTER TO LET IT HAPPEN NATURALLY THROUGH THE WAY WE DO OUR CULTURE AND ENTERTAINMENT AROUND THE WORLD?

>> I THINK IT'S RIGHT WHEN IT COMES TO THE PROMOTION OF AMERICAN CULTURE, WHICH REALLY IS NOT THE CENTERPIECE OF MY ARGUMENT.

MY ARGUMENT IS ABOUT LOCAL CULTURES AND THE ROLE OF LOCAL CULTURAL FIGURES, CULTURE MAKERS, CULTURAL ICONS, AND THE POWER AND THE POTENCY THEY CAN HAVE AS COUNTER WEIGHTS TO AUTHORITARIANISM.

I'VE SEEN IT VIVIDLY IN UKRAINE.

WE'VE DONE A LOT OF WORK WITH PEN UKRAINE OVER THE LAST SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS, BUILDING UP THAT ORGANIZATION OF WRITERS.

UKRAINE IS A PLACE WITH A VERY STRONG LITERARY AND SCHOLARLY TRADITION.

AND WITNESSING THE PRIDE THAT THEY ARE TAKING IN THEIR OWN CULTURE NOW, I WENT TO UKRAINE IN DECEMBER OF 2022.

SO REALLY, A DARK MOMENT, YOU KNOW, SIX OR SEVEN MONTHS INTO THE WAR.

AND WHEN WE GOT THERE, WE WERE STUNNED TO SEE IN A CULTURAL HALL IN THE CENTER OF KYIV, THEY WERE MOUNTING A BRAND-NEW EXHIBITION DEVOTED TO A VENERATED PHILOSOPHER.

AND IT WAS BEAUTIFUL.

AND IT HAD ALL KINDS OF EXPLANATIONS OF HIS WORK AND INTERACTIVE ELEMENT, AND THEY HAD BROUGHT THERE A STATUE FROM A MUSEUM DEDICATED TO HIS LIFE.

AND THE STATUE HAD BEEN DAMAGED IN THE WAR.

THEY HAD ATTACKED THE STATUE.

IT WAS KIND OF POCKMARKED, BUT STILL STANDING.

KIND OF AN ICON TO THE RESILIENCE OF THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE.

JUST THE PRIDE THAT THEY HAD IN THAT EXHIBITION AT THAT MOMENT REALLY SPOKE TO ME.

I THOUGHT TO MYSELF THAT THEY ARE DRIVING STRENGTH AND SPIRIT AND NURTURE FROM THEIR OWN CULTURE TO HELP THEM GET THROUGH THIS MOMENT.

AND IT WAS JUST SO POWERFUL.

THEY'VE CONTINUED WITH THAT OVER THE ENSUING NOW 14 MONTHS.

THEY TRAVEL ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY DOING EVENTS, BRINGING BOOKS TO THE FRONT LINES.

THEY TEACH THE UKRAINIAN LANGUAGE TO RUSSIAN SPEAKERS WHO NOW WANT THE UKRAINIAN TO BE THEIR LING WITH A FRANCA.

IT'S INCREDIBLE TO SEE WHAT ROLE CULTURE IS PLAYING IN THEIR EFFORT TO FIGHT OFF AND WIN THIS WAR AND SUSTAIN THE MORALE OF THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE.

SO THAT FOR ME WAS AN IMPORTANT SPARK FOR THIS PIECE.

>> I CAN GO BACK IN HISTORY, ESPECIALLY IN THE SOVIET UNION WHEN IT WAS WHETHER IT BE SOLZHENITSYN OR OTHERS WHO WERE GREAT WRITERS THERE THAT EXPRESSED AN IDEA OF FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY AND HELPED PUSH THE NARRATIVE FORWARD.

DO YOU THINK, THOUGH, THAT WE EITHER AS NGOs LIKE PEN OR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE SUPPORTING WRITERS LIKE THAT?

>> I THINK ORGANIZERS LIKE PEN, ABSOLUTELY.

THAT'S THE WORK THAT WE DO, STANDING WITH DISSIDENT WRITERS, PEOPLE WHO TAKE RISKS TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES, WHO ARE TARGETED FOR WHAT THEY PUBLISH, STANDING WITH THEM, ADVOCATING ON THEIR BEHALF WHEN THEY'RE PERSECUTED, WHEN THEY'RE JAILED.

IT'S IMPORTANT NOT JUST FOR THEM, BUT FOR ALL OTHER WRITERS WHO MIGHT BE SITTING IN FRONT OF THEIR COMPUTER THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S WORTH TAKING THE RISK.

SHOULD THEY SAY WHAT THEY REALLY THINK?

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM?

WHO IS GOING TO DEFEND THEM IF THAT KNOCK COMES ON THE DOOR AND THEY GET HAULED AWAY.

AND SO WE TRY TO SEND THE MESSAGE, LOOK, THERE IS THIS INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY OF WRITERS.

THERE IS AN ORGANIZATION LIKE PEN THAT WILL HAVE YOUR BACK.

AND I THINK THAT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE THOSE VOICES, YOU REMEMBER THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE SO SALIENT TO THE WAY THAT THAT STRUGGLE WAS WAGED AND WON.

THEY HAD AUTHENTICITY.

THEY TOLD STORIES THAT LAID BARE, YOU KNOW, WHAT A NEWS REPORT COULD NEVER DO.

WHAT A FOREIGN POLITICIAN COULD NEVER GET ACROSS.

THERE IS A PROFOUND RESONANCE AND A KIND OF DEPTH OF CONNECTION THAT PEOPLE FEEL TO THEIR OWN WRITERS, THEIR OWN FILMMAKER, THEIR OWN ARTISTS, THEIR OWN MUSICIANS THAT ARE IN A TRADITION THAT THEY ENGAGED WITH THEIR ENTIRE LIVES.

AND SO THE POWER OF THAT I THINK IS QUITE UNIQUE.

AND IT'S NOT SOMETHING -- I DON'T THINK IT'S ABOUT THE WEST HARNESSING IT PER SE, BUT IT'S ABOUT FINDING APPROPRIATE WAYS TO SUPPORT AND DEFEND THOSE INDIVIDUALS SO THAT THEY CAN AUTHENTICALLY HAVE THEIR VOICE.

BY NATURE IT CAN'T BE CONTROLLED FROM THE OUTSIDE.

>> LET ME READ A SENTENCE FROM YOUR PIECE AND HAVE YOU UNPACK IT FOR ME.

IT'S DEMOCRACIES AND AUTOCRACIES ARE WAGING A GLOBAL BATTLE, PRINCIPALLY THROUGH MILITARY, POLITICAL, ECONOMIC, AND DIPLOMATIC MEANS.

YET THE OUTCOME OF THE CONTEST WILL HINGE SIGNIFICANTLY ON CULTURE.

IS THAT BECAUSE AS JUST AN INNATE CLASH OF CULTURES BETWEEN TOTALITARIAN REGIMES AND DEMOCRACIES?

>> I THINK IT'S PART OF IT.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT CULTURAL CONTROL AND WHO SHAPES THE CULTURAL NARRATIVE ENDS UP BEING SOMETIMES DISPOSITIVE IN HOW THESE CONTESTS UNFOLD.

THE FACT THAT THE NARRATIVE OF THE SOVIET UNION, YOU KNOW, EVENTUALLY IT WAS PUNCTURED.

IT WAS POCKMARKED.

IT WAS CALLED INTO QUESTION.

BIDEN'S LEGENDARY WRITERS PARTIALLY BY WESTERN EFFORTS TO CAST IT IN A PARTICULAR LIGHT THROUGH FILMS AND BOOKS.

AND, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THAT OVER TIME MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO SUSTAIN THE STORY OF THIS POWERFUL NATION.

OF COURSE IT QUINN SEEDED WITH ECONOMIC DECLINE THAT, YOU KNOW, OVERTOOK THEM.

BUT I THINK THE CULTURAL PIECE, THE FACT THAT AUTHORITARIANS PAY SO MUCH ATTENTION TO SHAPING THIS.

AND NOW IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT ARENA.

SO MUCH OF OUR CULTURAL ENGAGEMENT HAPPENS IN THE DIGITAL REALM.

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF EFFORTS THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA, THROUGH PROPAGANDA AND DISINFORMATION, NOW ENABLED BY AI WHERE GOVERNMENTS CAN TELL WHATEVER STORY THEY CHOOSE AND THEY'RE INVESTING VERY SIGNIFICANTLY.

THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IN TRYING TO SHAPE THE POLITICAL ATTITUDES OF THEIR DIASPORA COMMUNITIES AROUND THE WORLD THROUGH ONLINE CHANNELS, THROUGH NEWS OUTLETS THAT ARE CONTROLLED IN BEIJING THAT ARE READ BY CHINESE COMMUNITIES HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, BY TRYING TO REIN IN WHAT CHINESE PEOPLE HEAR IN THE UNITED STATES PUBLISH OR SAY OR WHAT DANCE PERFORMANCES GET DONE.

SO, YOU KNOW, TO ME, THE AMOUNT OF EFFORT AND ATTENTION THAT THE AUTHORITARIANS ARE PAYING TO THIS OUGHT TO BE A SIGNAL TO US OF HOW IT MATTERS, AND HOW CENTRAL THEY SEE IT TO THE CONTINUITY OF THEIR REGIMES.

>> WELL, LET'S TAKE CHINA AS AN EXAMPLE, BECAUSE IT'S A COUNTRY WHERE WE FELT WITH CULTURAL INFLUENCE IT WOULD MOVE THEM A BIT TO MORE OPENNESS, MORE FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY.

WE FELT THAT WAY ABOUT TRADING WITH CHINA.

BUT WE ALSO HAD, AS YOU SAID, A CULTURAL IMPACT ON CHINA.

IT WAS HOLLYWOOD MOVIES THAT WENT OVER THERE.

IT WAS THE NBA, BASKETBALL OVER THERE.

ALL OF OUR CULTURAL PRODUCT HAD A GREAT OUTLET IN CHINA.

AND YET NOW EVERYTHING IS MOVING IN THE OTHER DIRECTION.

XI JINPING IS MUCH MORE CONTROLLED.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

WHY?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE WAS A NAIVE NOTION THAT WITH ENOUGH ENGAGEMENT, ENOUGH TIES, THE NATURAL APPEAL OF THE WESTERN ORDER OF OPENNESS, OF DEMOCRACY WOULD KIND OF AUTOMATICALLY TAKE HOLD.

AND OBVIOUSLY, WE'VE LEARNED THAT'S NOT TRUE.

THE APPEAL OF CAPITALISM IN MANY RESPECTS DID TAKE HOLD.

BUT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT WAS VERY STRICT.

AND LET'S FACE IT, QUITE EFFECTIVE IN PREVENTING WHAT MANY IN THE WEST ANTICIPATED WOULD BE THIS KIND OF INEXORABLE KIND OF POLITICAL OPENING THAT WOULD ACCOMPANY A TRANSITION TOWARD GREATER CAPITALISM.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT'S APPROACH TO THIS, IT'S REALLY SHIFTED.

WE DID A REPORT AT PAN AMERICA SOME YEARS -- ABOUT FIVE YEARS AGO CALLED MADE IN HOLLYWOOD, CENSORED IN BEIJING, ABOUT HOW HOLLYWOOD FILMMAKING WAS BEING SHAPED BY GOVERNMENT CENSORS OUT OF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE CHINA HAD BECOME AT THE TIME, IT WAS THE SECOND LARGEST GLOBAL FILM MARKET.

IT'S NOW THE LARGEST.

AND IN ORDER TO GET ON TO A SHORT LIST OF WESTERN FILMS THAT WERE APPROVED FOR RELEASE INTO CHINA, YOU HAD TO PLEASE THE CENSORS.

SO IF YOU HAD A CHINESE VILLAIN, OR YOU HAD AN AMERICAN MILITARY VICTORY OVER CHINA, THAT WAS NOT GOING PASS MUSTER.

IF YOU HAD EVEN A TAIWANESE FLAG AS THEY DID IN "TOP GUN," THAT WAS CONSIDERED UNACCEPTABLE.

AND HOLLYWOOD FILMMAKERS PLAYED BALL, BECAUSE IT WAS A FINANCIAL INCENTIVE FOR THEM TO DO SO.

I THINK SOME OF THEM WERE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT, BUT THEY MADE THE ARGUMENT TO THEMSELVES, LOOK, WE'RE GETTING INTO THIS IMPORTANT MARKET.

WE'RE HAVING SOME INFLUENCE.

MAYBE THAT WILL LEAD TO OPENNESS.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS IS THE BEIJING AUTHORITIES REALLY SORT OF TURNED AROUND ON THIS AND DECIDED THEY WERE BETTER OFF REALLY DOUBLING DOWN ON THEIR OWN DOMESTIC FILM INDUSTRY.

AND THEY HAVE NOT EXPANDED THE NUMBER OF FOREIGN FILMS THAT COME IN.

INCREASINGLY, THEY'RE INVESTING IN LOCAL BLOCK BUSTERS THAT THEY HAVE INFLUENCE OVER, THAT REINFORCE THEIR NARRATIVES.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SEE ANYTHING LIKE THE KIND OF INDEPENDENT FILMMAKING THAT WE HAVE HERE WHERE THERE ARE CHALLENGES TO AUTHORITY AND ALTERNATIVE STORY LINES THAT COME TO THE FORE.

THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN CHINA.

>> LET'S TAKE A PLACE THAT YOU MENTION WHERE IT HAS WORKED SOME, WHICH IS POLAND AND THE STRUGGLE FOR DEMOCRACY VERSUS AUTHORITARIANISM THERE.

CULTURE PLAYED A BIG ROLE.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> YEAH, I FOCUSED ON A PARTICULAR FILM THAT WAS RELEASED SHORTLY BEFORE THE ELECTION THIS FALL, WHICH HAD A SURPRISING RESULT, THE ELEVATION OF DONNELL TUSK AND A GOVERNMENT WHICH IS MUCH MORE CLASSICALLY LIBERAL AND OPEN.

AND THE FILM LOOKED AT HOW POLAND WAS HANDLING THE CRISIS AT ITS BORDER WITH BELARUS AND THE VERY HARSH APPROACHES OF THE DUDA GOVERNMENT, AND JUST THE MISTREATMENT OF MIGRANTS.

AND IT WAS A VERY KIND OF BOLD-FACED UNVARNISHED LOOK BY AGNIESZKA HOLLAND, A WELL REGARDED FILMMAKER.

AND THE GOVERNMENT GOT VERY UPSET BY THIS FILM.

THEY WANTED TO SUPPRESS IT.

THEY DELAYED IT.

THEY TAGGED A WARNING SCREEN ON IT THAT THEY DISAGREED WITH IT.

BUT WITHIN A MATTER OF WEEKS, IT BECAME THE SECOND MOST WATCHED FILM OF THE YEAR, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS RELEASED AT THE END OF THE YEAR.

YOU KNOW, HAVING THAT VOICE OUT THERE, THAT INDEPENDENT VOICE, A POL, TELLING A POLISH STORY HOLDING UP A MIRROR AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT TO SHOW POLS WHAT WAS REALLY GOING ON AND HELP SHAPE HOW THEY THOUGHT AS THEY WENT TO THE POLLS, YOU KNOW, THAT HAS EXTRAORDINARY POWER.

IT'S DIFFERENT THAN ANY EXHORTATION FROM BEHIND THE PODIUM.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT SPEAKS TO PEOPLE VISCERALLY AND EMOTIONALLY.

>> YOU KNOW, CULTURE SHAPES POLITICS, EVEN HERE AT HOME WE'RE SEEING EVERYTHING IN THE HISTORY WARS TO A POPULAR CULTURE.

I THINK A LOT OF CONSERVATIVES WOULD SAY THAT THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY, THE POPULAR CULTURE INDUSTRY SKEWS VERY MUCH TO THE LEFT AND LEAVES THEM OUT.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S A PROBLEM HERE?

>> LOOK, I THINK IT'S CRUCIAL THAT WE HEAR ALL VOICES IN OUR CULTURE.

PAN AMERICA, WE FIGHT AGAINST EFFORTS TO CANCEL BOOKS.

PEOPLE WANT TO CANCEL THE MEMOIRS FROM MEMBERS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OR THE BOOK "CONTRACT SEIBED BY AMY CONEY BARRETT."

I THINK VOICES NEED TO BE OUT THERE.

I THINK PEOPLE OF ALL KINDS NEED TO SEE THEMSELVES SOMEWHERE IN THE LARGER CULTURE.

I THINK THAT EXISTS WHETHER IT'S IN COUNTRY MUSIC, IN THE PATHWAY OF JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT YOU CAN FIND ON TELEVISION THESE DAYS.

YOU KNOW, THAT SAID, THERE IS A LEFT-LEANING SKEW IN HOLLYWOOD, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT PROBABLY IS NOT WRONG.

BUT YOU CAN'T CONTROL THAT CENTRALLY.

I THINK PEOPLE CAN INVEST AND WE CAN MAKE SURE AS AN ORGANIZATION LIKE PEN WHERE WE TRY TO BRING TOGETHER DIFFERENT VOICES, WE'RE COGNIZANT THAT WE WANT PEOPLE FROM ACROSS THE IDEOLOGICAL SPECTRUM TO FEEL LIKE THEY CAN BE PART OF THAT CONVERSATION.

>> SUZANNE NOSSEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, AS WE LOOK AHEAD TO THE UPCOMING U.S. ELECTION, WE WANT TO COMMEMORATE THE BRAVE INDIVIDUALS WHO FOUGHT HARD FOR VOTING RIGHTS, LIKE THE LATE CONGRESSMAN JOHN LEWIS, WHO TOOK PART IN WEEKS OF CIVIL RIGHTS MARCHES FROM SELMA TO MONTGOMERY, WHICH BEGAN IN 1965, 59 YEARS AGO TODAY.

WHAT STARTED AS A PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATION ENDED IN VIOLENT POLICE ATTACKS THAT LEFT LEWIS WITH A FRACTURED SKULL, AS HE TOLD ME IN 2016.

>> IT WAS 600 OF US WALKING IN AN ORDERLY, PEACEFUL NONVIOLENT FASHION.

I DIDN'T HAVE ANY IDEA THAT WE WOULD BE BEATEN, TRAMPLED BY HORSE, TEAR GASSED, AND I WAS THE FIRST ONE TO BECOME A VICTIM OF THE VIOLENCE.

I WAS HIT IN THE HEAD BY A STATE TROOP WERE A NIGHTSTICK.

AND I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO DIE.

>> BUT THOSE MARCHES INSPIRED THOUSANDS OF OTHERS, MOVING PRESIDENT LYNDON B. JOHNSON TO SIGN THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT OF 1965.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT THE FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.