>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY," HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> OTHER PEOPLE MY AGE SEE IT DIFFERENTLY.

THE AMERICAN STORY OF RESENTMENT, REVENGE, AND RETRIBUTION, THAT'S NOT ME.

>> BIDEN MAKES HIS PITCH, I SPEAK WITH A POLITICAL COMMUNICATIONS EXPERT ABOUT HOW IT WENT DOWN.

>>> THEN, MELTING POINT, A NEW BOOK TELLS THE FORGOTTEN STORY OF THE SEARCH FOR A JEWISH HOMELAND IN TEXAS.

AUTHOR RACHEL COCKERELL JOINS ME.

>>> PLUS.

>> IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE LIVE IN A WORLD THAT GIVE WOMEN ROOM TO BE FULL PEOPLE.

>> WHY WE SHOULD ALL BE FEMINISTS, WE LOOK BACK AT CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH AWARD WINNING AUTHOR, CHIMAMANDA NGOZI ADICHIE ON INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY.

>> ALSO AHEAD.

>> THE FUNCTION OF MEMORY IS NOT ABOUT THE PAST AT ALL.

IT'S ABOUT THE PRESENT AND ABOUT THE FUTURE.

>> WHY WE REMEMBER, NEUROSCIENTIST, CHARAN RANGANATH TALKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE MISCONCEPTIONS AROUND MEMORY.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSEN BLOOM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING IN OUR COMMUNIT BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, ADDITIONAL HOPE PROVIDED BY THESE FUND SKPERS CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN LONDON SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE STAKES WERE HIGH FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN AS HE STEPPED UP TO THE PODIUM FOR THIS YEAR'S STATE OF THE UNION.

AFTER WEEK IN WHICH THE ELECTION RACE WAS ALL BUT CONFIRMED AS A BIDEN-TRUMP REMATCH, PUNDITS, AND LIKELY MANY VOTERS, WERE LISTENING AND WATCHING CLOSELY.

THEY WERE MET WITH A FIERY ADDRESS AS BIDEN COVERED ISSUES INCLUDING THE ECONOMY, THE BORDER, THE MIDDLE EAST, AND EVEN HIS OWN AGE.

HE CHALLENGED FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP WITHOUT EVER MENTIONING HIS NAME DIRECTLY.

BUT HE STARTED WITH SOMETHING WHICH USUALLY TAKES A BACKSEAT AT THESE SPEECHES, FOREIGN POLICY, MAKING THE CASE THAT DEMOCRACY IS ONCE AGAIN ON THE BALLOT.

>> WHAT MAKES OUR MOMENT RARE IS A FREEDOM OF DEMOCRACY, WE'RE UNDER ATTACK BOTH AT HOME AND OVERSEAS.

AT THE VERY SAME TIME.

OVERSEAS, PUTIN OF RUSSIA'S ON THE MARCH, INVADING UKRAINE AND SOWING CHAOS THROUGHOUT EUROPE AND BEYOND.

IF ANYBODY IN THIS ROOM THINKS PUTIN WILL STOP AT UKRAINE, I ASSURE YOU HE WILL NOT.

>> SO HAVE DEMOCRATIC FEARS BEEN ALLAYED?

WHAT DOES THE ADDRESS SIGNAL FOR THE NEXT EIGHT MONTHS OF CAMPAIGNING?

ANAT SHENKER-OSORIO IS A POLITICAL COMMUNICATION STRATEGIST WHO JOINS ME NOW FROM CALIFORNIA.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

SO LET'S START THERE.

IT'S A BIT UNUSUAL FOR THE PRESIDENT TO START A STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS FOCUSING ON FOREIGN POLICY, YET THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN DID, OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF FRUSTRATION AMONG HIS ADMINISTRATION AND AMONG THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND LET'S BE HONEST, EVEN AMONG THE MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS THAT DO WANT TO SEE THAT EXTRA SUPPLEMENTAL OF FOREIGN AID FUNDING PASSED.

$60 BILLION WAITING TO BE SENT TO UKRAINE, WHICH NEEDS THAT FUNDING YESTERDAY.

DESPERATELY GOING THROUGH AMMUNITION AND NEEDING ADDITIONAL RESOURCES AND WEAPONS.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE PRESIDENT STARTING THERE, AND DO YOU THINK IT WAS AN EFFECTIVE DECISION?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, ABSOLUTELY EXTRAORDINARY BIDEN INFIGHTING FORUM AND WEAVING TOGETHER WHAT I WOULD NOTE REALLY WELL AT THE TOP OF THE SPEECH THAT FOREIGN POLICY ASK WITH A VERY REAL TRUTH, THAT HE WAS GIVING THAT SPEECH IN THE VERY FACE OF AN AT-HOME HOME BAKED AUTHORITARIAN FACTION THAT IS HELL BENT ON TAKING OUR FREEDOMS AND HAS QUESTIONED THE VERY BASIS OF DEMOCRATIC GOVERNANCE IN THAT VERY CHAMBER BY HELPING PLAN, PAY FOR AND WANTING TO PARDON THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK.

THOSE TWO TLETD THREADS TOGETHER, ESSENTIALLY THE SAME THREAD, AUTHORITARIANISM, A FACTION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO RULE FOR THE WEALTHIEST FEW, BOTH ABROAD AND AT HOME, AND HE MADE THAT POINT.

CLEARLY HE MADE THAT POINT WELL, AND HE MADE THAT POINT FORCEFULLY AS HE HAD TO DO.

>> AND A LOT OF PEOPLE POINTING THE BLAME AT HIS PREDECESSOR DONALD TRUMP FOR HOLDING UP THAT SUPPLEMENTAL AID TO UKRAINE AND ISRAEL.

WE SHOULD NOTE AS WELL, THEY'RE ALSO POINTING THE BLAME AT DONALD TRUMP FOR HOLDING UP THE BORDER SECURITY LEGISLATION ALSO.

SOMETHING THAT WAS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT AND DRAFTED, SOME O.

-- OF THE TOUGHEST BORDER SECURITY WE HAVE SEEN IN LEGISLATION.

SPECIFICALLY COMING FROM A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENT BIDEN NOTED THE FRUSTRATION THERE, AND SIGNALLED THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF SUPPORT FOR THIS, BUT ONE MAN IS HOLDING IT UP.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> IN NOVEMBER, MY TEAM BEGAN SERIOUS NEGOTIATIONS WITH A BIPARTISAN GROUP OF SENATORS.

THE RESULT WAS A BIPARTISAN BILL WITH THE TOUGHEST SET OF BORDER SECURITY REFORMS WE HAVE EVER SEEN.

OH, YOU DON'T THINK SO?

OH, YOU DON'T LIKE THAT BILL, HUH?

>> WE GOT A CUT AWAY OF JAMES LANGFORD, A REPUBLICAN OF OKLAHOMA WHO CO-DRAFTED THE REPUBLICAN SIDE OF THAT LEGISLATION WHO NOW MOUTHS THAT'S TRUE.

THIS IS TOUGH LEGISLATION.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT HE'D REALLY FOUGHT FOR, AND YET IT IS NOWHERE NEAR PASSING AS WELL BECAUSE IT IS BEING HELD UP BY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.

YOU POLL A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS ISSUE, AND IMMIGRATION HAS TAKEN A REAL LEAP FORWARD IN TERMS OF A CONCERN FOR NOT ONLY REPUBLICANS, WHICH IT TRADITION THAT WILLY HAS, BUT DEMOCRATS AS WELL.

DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN PUT HIM IN POSITION ENOUGH TO SAY THE BALL IS IN REPUBLICANS' COURT, NOT MINE RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK THAT THE PART OF THE SPEECH WHERE HE CAME TO IMMIGRATION, AND I THINK, BY ANY OBJECTIVE VIEW, HE KIND OF BEGAN TO GET A LITTLE BIT MORE CONVOLUTED AND COME OUT LESS CLEARLY, LESS STRONG THAN HE DID AT THE OUTSET AND AT THE END.

I THINK THAT SHOWS WHAT AN ACHILLES HEEL THAT IS, AND UNFORTUNATELY, IF YOUR ELECTORAL PROSPECTS AND I WOULD ARGUE MORE IMPORTANTLY IF THE PROSPECTS OF THE EXPERIMENT WITH SELF-GOVERNANCE, WITH HAVING REPRESENTATIVES WHO ACTUALLY ACT IN OUR INTERESTS HONOR OUR FREEDOM TO VOTE, HONOR OUR FREEDOM TO DECIDE FOR OURSELVES BASIC THINGS LIKE WHETHER AND WHEN WE HAVE KIDS, IF THE FUTURE PROSPECTS OF THIS COUNTRY HINGE UPON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, UNDERSTAND THAT THIS ELECTION IS A CONFRONTATION BETWEEN TWO DIFFERENT FUTURES, ONE IN WHICH WE WILL CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO ELECT OUR LEADERS, CAST OUR VOTES, HAVE THEM COUNTED AND IN ANOTHER IN WHICH THIS AUTHORITARIAN FACTION WILL CONTINUE CHIPPING AWAY AT EVERY ONE OF OUR FREEDOMS.

IF YOU NEED PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU CANNOT SAY ON ONE DAY, HEY, THESE FOLKS IN BIDEN PARLANCE ARE SEMIFAISTS AND I PROMISE TO WORK WITH THESE SEMIFASCISTS, THAT IS AN ELECTORAL STORY THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

WHEN YOU TRY THIS, YOU'RE UNDERMINDING YOUR OVERARCHING STORY WHICH I WOULD ARGUE IS ACCURATE THAT THESE ARE DEADLY, DANGEROUS PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE AMERICANS' BEST INTERESTS AT HEART.

THERE IS A WAY TO SEIZE THE UPPER HAND ON THE IMMIGRATION DEBATE, AND IT COMES WITH LEADING WITH OUR OWN VALUES, AND YES, CALLING OUT REPUBLICANS, BUT NOT BY CREDITING THEIR POLICY IDEAS BUT RATHER BY EXPOSING HOW THEY ARE EMPLOYING THE OLDEST TRICK IN THE AUTHORITARIAN BOOK, WHICH IS TO SHAME AND BLAME A SCAPEGOAT, TO TELL PEOPLE, LOOK OVER THERE, YOUR PROBLEMS, IT'S BECAUSE OF THOSE PEOPLE.

HOWEVER THAT GROUP IS NAMED AND SHAMED.

AND THEY ARE DOING THAT IN ORDER TO GET YOU TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY WHILE THEY TAKE AWAY EVERYTHING.

SOCIAL SECURITY, HEALTH CARE, LIVING WAGES, THE RIGHT TO JOIN TOGETHER IN UNION.

THAT'S THE WAY TO CALL OUT REPUBLICANS.

IT'S NOT BY CREDITING THEM AS GENIUS LAWMAKERS BY SAYING, HEY, I'M GOING TO MAKE THIS BILL HAPPEN BECAUSE THEY WROTE IT.

>> I DON'T THINK HE'S CREDITING THEM AS GENIUS LAWMAKERS, AT LEAST THAT'S NOT HOW I INTERPRETED IT.

I INTERPRETED IT AS A MAN WHO TOLD THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HE CAN WORK WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE ON SENSIBLE ISSUES THAT ARE OF RELEVANCE TO AMERICAN VOTERS.

AS FAR AS THIS PRESIDENT TRYING TO WIN OVER NEW VOTERS, UNDECIDED VOTERS, PERHAPS OF THE NIKKI HALEY VOTERS, IS THIS AN APPROACH THAT YOU THINK THAT ACTUALLY WOULD BE BENEFICIAL FOR HIM?

>> I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL, AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY, THAT WE WIN OVER NEW VOTERS BY HAVING A CLEAR SOLUTIONS-BASED MESSAGE ON IMMIGRATION, AND WE HAVE ONE.

IT IS MOST OF US, NO MATTER WHAT WE LOOK LIKE, WHERE WE COME FROM OR WHEN WE GOT HERE WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO PROVIDE FOR FOR OUR FAMILIES, INCLUDING MOVING TO A NEW PLACE.

IMMIGRANTS ARE MOVING HERE FOR THE PROMISE OF FREEDOM IN A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

AND DEMOCRATS HAVE REAL SOLUTIONS, INCLUDING A WORKING BORDER AND A PATHWAY TO CITIZENSHIP FOR PEOPLE WHO COME HERE.

REPUBLICANS BLOCK US AT EVERY TURN.

THEY WANT US POINTING OUR FINGER IN THE WRONG DIRECTION SO WE'LL LOOK THE OTHER WAY WHILE THEY TAKE AWAY WHAT FAMILIES NEED.

THAT'S THE WAY TO WIN OVER WHETHER IT BE A NIKKI HALEY VOTER OR ANOTHER KIND OF VOTER: >> ISN'T THAT WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN DID LAST NIGHT?

I MEAN, WASN'T HE DOING EFFECTIVELY THAT, CALLING OUT THOSE REPUBLICANS WHO WHEN PRESENTED WITH SENSIBLE, SOME OF THE TOUGHEST LEGISLATION THAT'S GETTING SUPPORT FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE STILL CAN'T BE PASSED, ISN'T HE CALLING THEM OUT SAYING YOU'RE MORE FOCUSED ON GETTING ONE MAN BACK INTO OFFICE OR PLAYING POLITICS AS OPPOSED TO FOCUSING SPECIFICALLY ON WHAT WOULD BENEFIT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC?

>> HE WAS DOING A PERMUTATION OF IT.

THE ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE, AND I'M ARGUING NOT JUST ON THE BASIS OF MY OWN LOGIC BUT RATHER ON ACTUAL TESTING AND WHEN WE LOOK THROUGH RANDOMIZED CONTROL TRIALS OF WHAT MOVED VOTERS AND WHAT DOESN'T MOVE VOTERS.

HE WAS DOING THAT BY FIRST CREDITING REPUBLICANS WITH HAVING A GOOD IDEA HERE, BECAUSE WHAT ELSE DOES IT MEAN TO SAY I'M GOING TO PASS THIS BIPARTISAN PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT REPUBLICANS HAMMERED OUT.

THIS IS THE TOUGHEST BORDER BILL EVER.

HE'S ECHOING THEIR LANGUAGE, AND UNFORTUNATELY IN ECHOING THEIR LANGUAGE, AS YOU PROBABLY NOTED HE EVEN WENT SO FAR AS TO USE THE WORD ILLEGAL AS A NOUN, GIVING CREDENCE TO THEIR BROADER STORY LINE WHICH OF COURSE IS ONE OF FEAR MONGERING, RACE BAITING AS THEY HAVE DONE ALL ALONG.

AND SO, YES, THERE IS A WAY OF CALLING THEIR BLUFF, BUT THE WAY OF DOING IT IS NOT SAYING, HEY, HERE'S THEIR PIECE OF LEGISLATION, AND I'M READY TO PASS IT.

BECAUSE WHAT THAT DOES IS IT REAFFIRMS HIS PREDECESSORS TO USE HIS LANGUAGE STORY LINE THAT HE'S THE STRONG MAN, AND HE'S THE ONE THAT'S GOING TO COME FIX THE BORDER AND HE'S THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO BE BOWED DOWN TO.

WHEN BIDEN SAYS, YOU KNOW, I'LL DO IT WITH YOU.

I'LL COME TO YOU OR YOU COME TO ME, AND WE'LL DO IT TOGETHER.

HOW DOES A VOTER BOTH UNDERSTAND THESE PEOPLE ARE HELL BENT ON TAKING YOUR FREEDOMS, AND HEY, I PROMISE TO WORK WITH THESE PEOPLE ON THESE POLICY ISSUES.

THESE ARE COMPETING STORY LINE SGLS THESE TWO MEN, BIDEN AND TRUMP ARE BOTH FACING HEAD WINDS OF THEIR OWN, TRUMP IN EXPANDING HIS CORE BASE, AND BIDEN TRYING TO, I GUESS, SATISFY A BIG PORTION.

NOT A BIG PORTION BY A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THE PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS WHO HAVE SPOKEN OUT ON A NUMBER OF ISSUES.

ONE BEING HIS FOREIGN POLICY WITH REGARDS TO THE ISRAEL HAMAS WAR.

ALSO HIS AGE, A NUMBER OF ISSUES.

BUT IN RELATION TO THE ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR, HE DID ADDRESS THIS, THE WAR GOING ON RIGHT NOW AND THE FRUSTRATION THAT HIS ADMINISTRATION NOW COMING PUBLIC ABOUT WITH HOW THIS WAR IS BEING CONDUCTED, SPECIFICALLY WITH THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT AND WHAT ELSE NEEDS TO BE DONE.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> ISRAEL MUST DO ITS PART.

ISRAEL MUST ALLOW MORE AID INTO GAZA AND ENSURE HUMANITARIAN WORKERS AREN'T CAUGHT IN THE CROSS FIRE.

>> IS THIS GOING TO BE AN ACHILLES HEEL COME NOVEMBER OR IS THIS A SITUATION WHERE THOSE WHO PROTESTED AND VOTED NONCOMMITTAL MADE THEIR CASE AND WILL SEE THAT IT COMES DOWN TO A CHOICE BETWEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN OR FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP?

AND GO WITH THE FORMER?

>> I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA OF PREDICTING WHAT THE U.S. VOTER IS GOING TO DO AND WHAT'S GOING TO CARE ABOUT, WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO CARE ABOUT COME NOVEMBER IS A LOSING PROPOSITION, AS WE'VE SEEN MOST PEOPLE, MOST HUMAN BEINGS ARE NOT ACTUALLY PAYING ANY ATTENTION AT ALL TO THE ELECTION.

I KNOW THAT'S HARD FOR US POLITICAL JUNKIES TO GET INTO OUR HEADS, BUT AS A PERSON WHO WATCHES FOCUS GROUPS ON THE WEEKLY, I CAN ASSURE YOU MOST PEOPLE ARE STILL IN THE, WAIT, THERE'S AN ELECTION, NOVEMBER, OH, OKAY.

GUESS SO, KIND OF A SPOT, AND SO THE QUESTION REALLY HERE IS THERE ARE -- THERE IS A VOTING BLOC, THERE IS A BASE.

THERE IS A CHOIR THAT IS EXTRAORDINARILY UPSET, AND I WOULD ARGUE UNDERSTANDABLY AND RIGHTLY SO ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IT'S HORRIFIC, THE LOSS OF HUMAN LIFE.

YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD NOT TO KNOW ABOUT THAT, WATCH THAT, AND NOT FEEL COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY MOVED.

I THINK THAT BIDEN MADE A GOOD STEP FORWARD IN FORTHRIGHTLY ADDRESSING THE CRISIS AND THE LOSS OF HUMAN LIFE AMONG PALESTINIANS, THE DEVASTATION, AND IN CALLING OUT ISRAEL AND NEEDING TO ACTUALLY ATTEND TO HUMAN RIGHTS AND ALTER, AND THEN I THINK EQUALLY IMPORTANTLY, THE EXPLICIT NAMING OF A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE IS NO SECURITY WITHOUT PEACE.

SECURITY WITHOUT PEACE DOES NOT EXIST.

WHETHER THAT'S GOING TO BE ENOUGH, I THINK THAT TALK WITHOUT ACTIONS IS UNLIKELY TO DO ENOUGH, AND I THINK THE THING TO REALLY THINK ABOUT AND UNDERSCORE IS THAT EVEN IF IT IS RELATIVELY SPEAKING A SMALL GROUPING OF VOTERS WHO ARE REALLY THINKING ABOUT THIS, IT'S NOT THE HOW MANY, IT'S THE WHO.

AND THE WHO IN MANY OF OUR BATTLEGROUND STATES ARE THE CORE ACTIVISTS THAT DEMOCRATS RELY UPON TO DO THE CALLING.

TO DO THE TEXTING, TO DO THE RELATIONAL ORGANIZING, TO DRIVE OUT THE VOTE.

AND SO IF THAT CHOICE ISN'T WILLING TO SING FROM THE, HEY, WE NEED TO ELECT DEMOCRATS SONG BOOK, THEN THE CONGREGATION ISN'T GOING TO HEAR THE JOYFUL NOISE, AND THAT'S WHY THIS IS SO CRITICAL.

IT'S NOT THE HOW MANY.

IT'S THE WHO.

>> YEAH, AND AS YOU NOTED, THOUGH, IT STILL IS EARLY DAYS, SO A LOT COULD DEVELOP BETWEEN NOW AND THEN.

THIS IS DEFINITELY A WARNING SIGN.

QUICKLY LAST QUESTION TO YOU.

I DON'T THINK HE EVER NAMED DONALD TRUMP BUT HE REFERENCED HIM A NUMBER OF TIMES OVER A DOZEN.

AND TALKED ABOUT THEIR DIFFERENCES, BUT ALSO THEIR SIMILARITIES, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH.

BOTH OF THEM ARE OLDER MEN BUT SAID THEIR VIEWS ON THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY, THEIR VIEWS ON THE FUTURE OF THE GLOBAL ORDER ARE VASTLY DIFFERENT.

DO YOU THINK HE WAS EFFECTIVE IN SPEAKING OUT AND CALLING OUT THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, THAT'S HIS AGE, BUT ALSO SAYING, YOU KNOW, MY PREDECESSOR ALSO ISN'T A SPRING CHICKEN?

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT HIS LINE, WHICH HE'S USED A COUPLE OF TIMES NOW AROUND, IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW OLD YOU ARE, IT'S ABOUT HOW OLD YOUR IDEAS ARE IS SPOT ON.

EVERYTHING THAT WE'RE SEEING IN TESTING IS THAT CASTING THE ELECTION MORE BROADLY NOT AS A CONTEST BETWEEN THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS, WHICH LET'S FACE IT PEOPLE AREN'T ALL THAT HOOKED INTO THIS.

WE HAVE HAD THIS SAME MATCH UP BEFORE.

VOTERS ARE BORED OF IT TO SPEAK IN PRO SEIC TERMS.

RATHER THAN MAKING IT A CONTEST BETWEEN TWO INDIVIDUALS, MAKING IT A CONTEST BETWEEN TWO FUTURES, BETWEEN AN AMERICA THAT MOVES FORWARD TOGETHER INTENT ON THE FULL FREEDOMS, THE PROMISE OF LIBERTY, OPPORTUNITY, EQUALITY FOR ALL, AND A MAGA REPUBLICAN DESIRE TO DRAG US INTO I WOULD ARGUE THE MEZZOIC ERA WHERE A HANDFUL OF WEALTHY WHITE MEN ALONE DECIDE WHO GETS TO DO WHAT AND HOW.

AND WHEN THAT CONTRAST IS PRESENTED, WHEN WE SEE VOTERS FLIP FROM THINKING ABOUT THIS AS A CONTEST BETWEEN TWO RIVAL TEAMS AND THEY'RE NOT REALLY INTO EITHER TEAM, LET'S JUST BE HONEST SO I'D RATHER TURN OFF THE GAME TO A CONTEST OF WHAT WILL MY FUTURE BE, WHERE WILL MY CHILDREN LIVE?

WHAT WILL BE THEIR SURROUNDINGS AND HOW WILL THEY EXPERIENCE LIFE IN AMERICA, AND THAT IS HOW THE SWITCH FLIPS, AND I THINK BIDEN DID THAT WELL AT THE END THERE.

>> INSTEAD OF OFFERING THOSE ALTERNATIVES IN REALTIME, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AMONG OTHER THINGS WAS IS RESPONDING ON SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS BY SHOWING PRESIDENT BIDEN WITH SOME REALLY I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO DESCRIBE IT, WACKY SNAPCHAT FILTERS OVER HIS FACE.

I'M NOT SURE HOW THAT'S ADDRESSING AND SPEAKING TO SOME OF THE CONCERNS A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE HAVING RIGHT NOW.

ANAT SHENKER-OSORIO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>> NEXT TO A LITTLE KNOWN HISTORY, THE SEARCH FOR A JEWISH HOMELAND IN TEXAS.

A NEW BOOK, "MELTING POINT," TELLS THE STORY OF JEWS FROM RUSSIA SEEKING REFUGE IN THIS UNLIKELY AMERICAN STATE IN THE EARLY 19th CENTURY.

AUTHOR RACHEL COCKERELL CHOSE TO NARRATE IT ENTIRELY THROUGH ORIGINAL QUOTATIONS AND SOURCES.

AND HER OWN FAMILY HISTORY IS INTERTWINED, WITH HER GREAT GRANDFATHER IS THE MAN WHO PERSUADED PASSENGERS TO MAKE THIS JOURNEY.

AND RACHEL JOINS ME NOW HERE ON SET IN LONDON.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU.

WHAT A FASCINATING STORY.

WHAT A FASCINATING BOOK.

YOU STARTED BY WANTING TO WRITE A FAMILY MEMOIR.

WHEN DID THIS TURN INTO THE JEWISH IMMIGRATION OUT OF RUSSIA THROUGH OF ALL PLACES, GALVESTON, TEXAS.

>> YES, THIS BOOK DID START AS A MORE CONVENTIONAL FAMILY MEMOIR.

I WAS INTERESTED IN HOW MY GRANDMOTHER CAME TO ENGLAND.

SHE CAME TO ENGLAND FROM RUSSIA AS A CHILD, SPEAKING NO ENGLISH, SORT OF AROUND 1910 BUT I DIDN'T KNOW HOW OR WHY.

THERE WERE A LOT OF STORIES IN MY FAMILY ABOUT MY GRANDMOTHER, GRANNY FANNY SHE WAS CALLED.

SHE DIED YEARS BEFORE I WAS BORN, BUT SHE WAS SUCH A VIVID AND, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE SO FULL OF LIFE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT HER TO THIS DAY.

BUT NOTHING WAS EVER MENTIONED ABOUT HER PARENTS OR ABOUT HER FATHER.

IF ANYTHING, ANY FATHER AND HIS SIBLINGS AND COUSINS SAID HE WAS A BUSINESSMAN, SOMEHOW INVOLVED IN STOCKS AND SHARES.

SO I WONDERED HOW MY FAMILY CAME TO ENGLAND, AND I STARTED READING A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MY GREAT GRANDFATHER, DAVID, AND I FOUND OUT HE WAS INVOLVED IN THIS THING CALLED THE GALVESTON PLAN.

HE LED 10,000 RUSSIAN JEWS TO TEXAS YEARS LEADING UP TO WORLD WAR I.

NO ONE IN MY FAMILY KNEW ABOUT IT.

>> THE FOUNDING FATHER OF ZIONISM, HE'S FEATURED HEAVILY THROUGHOUT THIS BOOK AS WELL.

WE LEARN ONE OF THE MAIN PRONISS IS ISRAEL ZANGWELL, A LEADING ZIONIST.

WE HAD THE BRITISH SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES, JOSEPH CHAMBERLAIN, OFFERING AS THE PUSH FOR HERT ZEL RETURN TO PALESTINE WAS ON THE TABLE.

FOR NOW, LET'S OFFER EAST AFRICA, THE UGANDA SCHEME, KENYA, A TEMPORARY SOLUTION, A HOMELAND IN PRICE OF PALESTINE.

THIS WAS REJECTS AND HE COMES INTO THE PICTURE WITH HIS PLAN AND SEARCH AND JOURNEY FOR AN ALTERNATIVE, AND THAT LED HIM TO GALVESTON.

>> ZANWELL WAS PROBABLY THE MOST FAMOUS JEWISH FIGURE IN THE ENGLISH SPEAKING WORLD IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 20th CENTURY, AND WOULD BE HORRIFIED HOW COMPLETELY HE'S BEEN FORGOTTEN IN 2024.

HIS LEGACY REALLY IS THE PHRASE MELTING POT.

WE HEAR OF AMERICA BEING SPOKEN OF AS THE MELTING POT AND SAME WITH ENGLAND OR NEW YORK SPECIFICALLY.

AND MY BOOK IS CALLED "MELTING POINT" AND PEOPLE OFTEN, AS SOON AS I TELL THEM THE TITLE, FOUR SECONDS LATER, THEY SAY THE MELTING POT.

IT'S A PHRASE ENGRAINED IN OUR VOCABULARY.

IT WAS MADE FAMOUS IN A PLAY IN 1908, CALLED "THE MELTING POT" PREMIERING IN WASHINGTON.

THEODORE ROOSEVELT WHO WAS PRESIDENT AT THE TIME LED THE STANDING OVATION, AND IT TRIGGERED NATIONAL DISCOURSE ABOUT AMERICA AS THE GREAT MELTING POT, AND IS IT A GOOD THING OR A BAD THING THAT IMMIGRANTS COME FROM EUROPE AND RUSSIA AND ELSEWHERE, AND THEY ARRIVE IN MEDICAL CARE AND AMALGAMATE, WHETHER IT HAPPENS IN THEIR GENERATION OR THE NEXT GENERATION OR THE GENERATION AFTER.

SO ZANGWELL SAW AMERICA AS THE MELTING POT, AND HE ACTUALLY FELT AMBIVALENT ABOUT THIS.

HE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER IT WAS A GOOD THING OR BAD THING.

AT ONE POINT HE SAID AMERICA IS THE EUTHANASIA OF THE JEWS, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY STRONG LANGUAGE, BUT HE WAS THE LEADER OF THE MOVEMENT TO SEND THE JEWS TO TEXAS.

I MEAN, REALLY, THEY WERE BEING SAVED FROM RUSSIA.

SO IS IT A GOOD THING, IS IT A BAD THING.

MY WHOLE BOOK IS SORT OF ABOUT THINGS BEING, YOU KNOW, TWO THINGS AT ONCE.

>> BECAUSE THE FIGHT FOR ZIONISM IN A HOMELAND FOR JEWS HAD BEEN ONGOING FOR MANY YEARS AT THIS POINT, BUT THE REAL CRITICAL POINT CAME WHERE IT WAS CLEAR THIS WAS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT THE JEWS WHERE ARE FACING.

I WANT TO READ A QUOTE IN YOUR BOOK, THE ONLY SOLUTION OF THE JEWISH QUESTION IS TO TAKE THE JEWS OUT OF RUSSIA AND PLANT THEM ON A SOIL OF THEIR OWN.

HOW DID THE PROGRAM REALLY TRIGGER HIS, THE URGENCY BEHIND THIS MOVEMENT.

AND THEN I WANT TO GET TO GALVESTON AFTER THAT GL AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 20th CENTURY, JEWS IN RUSSIA HAD THEIR EYES TURNED TO NEW YORK.

NEW YORK WAS THE GREATEST JEWISH CENTER THE WORLD HAD EVER KNOWN AT THAT TIME, 1900, 1905, SPECIFICALLY THE LOWER EAST SIDE OF NEW YORK.

IF YOU WALK THROUGH THE LOWER EAST SIDE OF NEW YORK IN 1905 IT WOULD BE LIKE WALKING THROUGH A LITTLE PIECE OF RUSSIA, A JEWISH GHETTO AS THE NEWSPAPERS CALLED IT AT THE TIME.

YOU WOULDN'T HEAR MUCH ENGLISH BEING SPOKEN.

IT WOULD BE YIDDISH AND RUSSIAN, SIGNS IN STRANGE LANGUAGES AND STRANGE FOODS BEING COOKED.

FEW AMERICAN JOURNALISTS TALKED ABOUT THE SURREAL NATURE OF THE LOWER EAST SIDE AT THAT TIME.

>> THE GALVESTON CONNECTION, I SHOULD NOTE AT THIS POINT, I WAS BORN IN THE FORM SOVIET UNION, AND MY PARENTS AND I IMMIGRATED TO THE UNITED STATES AS REFUGEES.

THEREst PHOTOS OF MY DAD AND ME IN GALVESTON, TEXAS, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE WE LANDED.

MY PARENTS DIDN'T WANT TO GO WHERE ALL OF THE OTHER RUSSIANS WERE GOING AND THAT WAS NEW YORK AT THE TIME.

TAKE US BACK.

THAT'S OUR FIRST PICTURE IN AMERICA.

THAT IS GALVESTON AS WELL.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS AN INTERESTING STORY.

MY PARENTS HAD NEVER HEARD OF GALVESTON, HOW DID WE END UP IN GALVESTON, BUT GIVEN THE HISTORY THERE, AND THIS WAS AN ALTERNATE PORT AS WELL FOR JEWS COMING FROM EUROPE INSTEAD OF NECESSARILY GOING TO NEW YORK AND ELLIS ISLAND, THE SOUTH PLAYED A ROLE HERE AS WELL.

>> GALVESTON WAS CALLED THE ELLIS ISLAND OF THE WEST.

IT WAS, YEAH, IT WAS 10,000 JEWS WENT THERE, AND REALLY IF YOU THINK OF THEIR DESCENDANTS, THIS IS OVER 100 YEARS AGO.

IT MUST BE IN THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS TODAY OF JEWS WHO WENT FROM RUSSIA TO GALVESTON, TEXAS, AND SPREAD OUT ACROSS THE AMERICAN WEST.

I SPOKE TO SOMEONE THE OTHER DAY WHO WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL IN NASHVILLE, AND HE SAID THAT OR MAYBE IT WAS MEMPHIS ACTUALLY, AND HE SAID THAT -- >> SAME STATE.

>> IN TENNESSEE.

AND HE SAID THAT ALL OF HIS FRIENDS, THEIR ANCESTORS HAD COME THROUGH GALVESTON, AND HE WAS SORT OF THE ODD ONE OUT BECAUSE HIS ANCESTORS HAD COME FROM NEW YORK.

>> DID THIS PROJECT END UP BEING A SUCCESSFUL ONE?

>> ED THIS MUCH GREATER AIMS.

THE ORGANIZERS OF THE MOVEMENT, INCLUDING MY GREAT GRANDFATHER ENVISIONED MILLIONS OF JEWS COMING TO AMERICA THROUGH GAVELSON.

AND SO 10,000 FELL SHORT OF THEIR EXPECTATIONS.

BUT REALLY, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS 10,000 JEWS SAVED FROM RUSSIA.

SO FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, FROM A MODERN PERSPECTIVE, IT WAS A HUGE SUCCESS.

>> YEAH, AND OF COURSE THERE WERE ECONOMIC CHALLENGES AT GALVESTON FACED AS WELL IN THE YEARS AFTER.

ANOTHER THEME OF THIS BOOK IS ASSIMILATION, AND I CAN'T HELP BUT THINK OF JEWS AND THEIR PLIGHT TO FIND A NEW HOME, A BETTER HOME, A FINAL HOME, AND THE CONSTANT THEME IN THE RISE SADLY IN THE PRESENT DAY OF ANTI-SEMITISM WHERE YOU HAVE SOME QUESTIONING, ARE WE REALLY SAFE HERE.

I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU HAVE LEARNED FROM YOUR RESEARCH IN THIS BOOK AND HOW IT RELATES TO WHAT WE'RE EXPERIENCING TODAY?

>> ASSIMILATION IS REALLY THE THING I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT FOR THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

YOU KNOW, THE TITLE OF THE BOOK, MELTING POINT IS ABOUT THAT MOMENT.

IS THERE A MOMENT WHERE YOU CAN PINPOINT YOUR FAMILY ASSIMILATING.

YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY JEWS IN AMERICA AND IN ENGLAND.

YOU TRY TO HOLD ON TO YOUR PAST IN MANY WAYS, PASS DOWN STORIES AND LEGACIES, BUT REALLY MAYBE THINGS START DISSOLVING SLOWLY AWAY.

I HAVE SEEN IT IN MY OWN FAMILY.

MY GRANDFATHER, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING THAT SHE GREW UP WITH, ALL THE RUSSIAN, I'M NOT SURE, YOU KNOW, THE STORIES AND POEMS AND SHE CELEBRATED PASSOVER.

I HAVE NONE OF THAT.

NONE OF THAT GOT PASSED DOWN TO ME.

SLOWLY THROUGH THE GENERATIONS, IT WENT.

SHE MARRIED A NON-JEW, AND SOME OF MY RELATIVES SAID SHE WAS QUITE KEEN TO BECOME MORE ENGLISH THAN THE ENGLISH.

SHE WANTED TO SHAKE OFF HER FOREIGNNESS.

AND YOU KNOW, SO I'VE REALLY MELTED INTO THE MELTING POT, BUT I CAN'T CONDEMN THAT AS A TERRIBLE THING BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I'M QUITE HAPPY WITH MY LIFE.

IT'S THAT SORT OF DOUBLE DICHOTOMY AGAIN.

>> AND HER SISTER MADE A JEW, A ZIONIST, AND MOVED TO ISRAEL.

TWO DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE SAME STORY AND HOW IT'S EVOLVED.

ONE MOVED TO ISRAEL, THE OTHER STAYED IN ENGLAND AND THE QUESTION OF ASSIMILATION IS ONE WE CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT.

RACHEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NOW ON THIS INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S DAY IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE STOCK AND REMEMBER THE WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD STILL BEING DENIED FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS.

IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAN, WOMEN CONTINUE TO FACE REPRESSION AND VIOLENCE.

NOBEL LAUREATE, MALALA YOUSAFZAI, IS AGAIN URGING THE WORLD TO CONFRONT THE TALIBAN'S GENDER APARTHEID AGAINST WOMEN.

IN UKRAINE, ISRAEL AND GAZA, WOMEN OFTEN PAY THE HIGHEST PRICE FOR A CONFLICT NOT OF THEIR MAKING.

YET NO COUNTRY IS IMMUNE TO THE SCOURGE OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.

HERE IN THE UK, TWO WOMEN A WEEK ON AVERAGE ARE KILLED BY A CURRENT OR FORMER PARTNER.

BUT THERE IS PROGRESS AS WELL.

FRANCE THIS WEEK ENSHRINED REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS FOR WOMEN AS A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, AND IN EAR IRELAND TODAY PEOPLE GO TO POLLS IN A REFERENDUM TO REMOVE A REFERENCE TO WOMEN IN THE HOME FROM ITS CONSTITUTION.

WE REVISIT CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH A RENOWNED FEMINIST, THE AWARD-WINNING NOVELIST, CHIMAMANDA NGOZI ADICHIE.

THEY SPOKE IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY ABOUT THE POLITICAL UNCERTAINTY OF THAT MOMENT, RACE IN AMERICA, AND WHY WE ALL SHOULD BE FEMINISTS.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, AND THANKS FOR JOINING US FROM NEW YORK.

>> THANK YOU, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO THIS IS A MOMENT WHERE ALL SECTORS OF SOCIETY, ARTISTS AND WRITERS AND EVERYBODY ARE SORT OF REACTING AND LAYING DOWN THEIR OWN MARKERS TO THE POLITICAL UPHEAVAL THAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE U.S. AND ALL OVER THE WORLD.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN A VERY BIG ARTICLE FOR THE NEW YORKER MAGAZINE BASICALLY SAYING NOW IS THE TIME.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT EXACTLY IN THIS CONTEXT?

>> BECAUSE I GREW UP IN NIGERIA, AND HAVING GROWN UP THERE, POLITICAL UNCERTAINTY IS NOT UNFAMILIAR TO ME.

I GREW UP DURING THE 1980s AND WE HAD COUPS.

BUT THE U.S., I THINK, HASN'T QUITE HAD TO DEAL WITH THE KIND OF POLITICAL UNCERTAINTY THAT I THINK HAPPENED WITH THE ELECTION OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND MY ESSAY WAS REALLY ABOUT HOW IT'S NOW TIME FOR PEOPLE TO FIND NEW WAYS TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS, TO PUSH BACK, TO STAND UP FOR WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT IS RIGHT.

IT'S REALLY NOT THE TIME TO MAKE EXCUSES OR HOLD ON TO THIS IDEA OF OPTIMISM, IT'S TIME TO MAYBE BE A BIT MORE REALISTIC.

AND ALSO TIME TO ACCEPT THAT DIFFICULT IS PART OF THE REALITY OF POLITICAL LIFE.

>> AND I WANT TO MOVE ON TO ONE OF YOUR MOST FAMOUS WORKS, "AMERICANAH," BECAUSE YOU DO LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES NOW, BUT YOU ARE NIGERIAN.

YOU COME FROM A BLACK COUNTRY, AND YET YOU SAID YOU NEVER EXPERIENCED REALLY WHAT IT MEANT TO BE BLACK UNTIL YOU CAME TO THE UNITED STATES.

>> I THINK IN SOME WAYS IT'S BECAUSE EVERYONE IN NIGERIA IS BLACK, AND SO WE DIDN'T REALLY THINK ACTIVELY OF RACE AS AN IDENTITY MARKER.

AND WHEN I WENT TO THE U.S., I SUDDENLY REALIZED THAT RACE WAS THIS IDENTITY THAT WAS THRUST ON ME.

BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING, I THINK, ABOUT RACE IS THAT IT'S NOT THAT I HAVE DARK SKIN, WHICH I ACTUALLY FIND QUITE GLORIOUS, IT IS, INSTEAD, THAT HAVING THE SKIN COMES WITH ASSUMPTIONS, THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO LOOK AT PEOPLE WHO HAVE SKIN LIKE MINE AND MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THEIR ABILITY, ABOUT WHAT THEY SHOULD AND SHOULDN'T DO, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S A PROBABLE.

IT'S NOT THE PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF RACE.

IT'S ALL OF THE ASSUMPTIONS THAT COME WITH LOOKING A CERTAIN WAY.

>> WELL, LISTEN, YOU ARE RIGHT.

IT IT IS GLORIOUS.

SO I SECOND YOUR COMMENT JUST THERE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAME TO THE UNITED STATES AS A 19-YEAR-OLD UNIVERSITY STUDENT, AND YOU SEE THAT THERE ARE HUGE RACE RELATION PROBLEMS.

OBVIOUSLY MUCH HAS IMPROVED, BUT THERE IS STILL DRAMATIC RACE RELATION PROBLEMS, AND SOME OF THEM EXACERBATED BY THE CURRENT CAMPAIGN.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THE STATE OF THE RACE, SO TO SPEAK, IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THAT RACE IS AMERICA'S ORIGINAL SIN.

AND IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT IT REMAINS A PROBLEM.

ACTUALLY, SOMETIMES I FIND IT SURPRISING THAT SOME PEOPLE FIND IT SURPRISING THAT IT REMAINS A PROBLEM.

I DO THINK, THOUGH, THAT THE POLITICAL LEADERS CAN SET THE TONE THAT ONE USES TO TALK ABOUT RACE.

I THINK THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS WONDERFUL AT SETTING THIS TONE IN WHICH RACISM DID NOT DISAPPEAR, BUT IT WASN'T OVERT.

I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION IS THAT THEY HAVE SET A TONE IN WHICH CASUAL RACISM HAS BECOME OKAY IN A WAY BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE LEADER OF A COUNTRY WHO HIMSELF, SORT OF ENGAGES IN A KIND OF CASUAL RACISM.

I THINK THAT'S THE SAME FOR MISOGYNY AS WELL.

THE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP CAN SET THE TONE, AND I'M NOT VERY ENCOURAGED ABOUT THE TONE THAT'S BEEN SET IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> THAT'S FOR RACE.

WHAT ABOUT FOR FEMINISM AND THE RESPECT OF WOMEN?

YOU HAVE EVEN BEFORE THIS ELECTION, IN FACT WAY BEFORE THIS ELECTION, YOU GAVE A VERY FAMOUS TED TALK ABOUT FEMINISM.

I WANT TO PLAY SOME OF IT, AND THEN TALK TO YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID AND WHAT YOUR MANIFESTO IS TODAY.

>> WE TEACH GIRLS TO SHRINK THEMSELVES TO MAKE THEMSELVES SMALLER.

WE SAY TO GIRLS, YOU CAN HAVE AMBITION, BUT NOT TOO MUCH.

YOU SHOULD AIM TO BE SUCCESSFUL, BUT NOT TOO SUCCESSFUL.

OTHERWISE YOU WILL THREATEN THE MAN.

IF YOU ARE THE BREADWINNER IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH A MAN, YOU HAVE TO PRETEND THAT YOU'RE NOT, ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC, OTHERWISE YOU WILL EMASCULATE HIM.

BUT WHAT IF WE QUESTION THE PREMISE ITSELF, WHY SHOULD A WOMAN'S SUCCESS BE A THREAT TO A MAN.

>> I MEAN, THERE'S SO MUCH TO UNPICK THERE, CHIMAMANDA, ARE YOU ANGRY?

ARE YOU TRYING TO PERSUADE PEOPLE?

ARE YOU TRYING TO KNOCK PEOPLE OVER THE HEAD?

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE DONE TO RESOLVE THIS SITUATION WHICH IS STILL A SITUATION WHEN IT COMES TO GENDER EQUALITY?

>> ALL OF THINGS, I AM ANGRY, AND I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD BE ANGRY ABOUT THE STATE OF GENDER.

I WANT TO PERSUADE, I WANT TO TALK.

I WANT TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS.

I THINK THAT THERE'S GENDER IMBALANCE EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, AND A LOT OF IT IS INFURIATING TO ME, IT'S SO UNJUST.

SO MANY PEOPLE THAT MAKE UP HALF OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION DON'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITIES THEY DESERVE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I DON'T THINK IT MEANS THAT ALL MEN ARE EVIL OR TERRIBLE.

I THINK THAT PRIVILEGE MEANS OFTEN THAT ONE IS BLINDED.

I DREAM OF A WORLD WHERE WE NO LONGER NEED FEMINISM BECAUSE IT WILL BE REDUNDANT.

>> YOU HAVE TAKEN ANOTHER STEP AND WRITTEN SORT OF A NEW FEMINIST MANIFESTO, YOU HAVE CALLED IT DEAR EDIGIWELI, A FEMINIST MANIFESTO IN 15 DIRECTIONS.

>> IT STARTED AS A LETTER TO A FRIEND OF MINE, AND SHE ASKED ME HOW TO RAISE HER BABY GIRL A FEMINIST.

I STARTED TO WRITE DOWN THE THINGS I THINK WE CAN DO DIFFERENTLY IN RAISING GIRLS.

THEY ALSO APPLY TO RAISING BOYS BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.

AND I HAVE THESE SORT OF THE BRILLIANT YOUNG WOMEN ASKING ME, YOU KNOW, HOW IS THIS FEMINIST, HOW IS THIS NOT FEMINIST.

THEY WERE CONFUSED.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO GIVE WOMEN TO BE FULL PEOPLE.

NOT DEFINED ON NARROW DOMESTIC TERMS, AND ALSO THE IDEA OF REJECTING LIKE ABILITY.

I THINK THAT YOUNG GIRLS EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD ARE RAISED TO MAKE THEMSELVES LIKABLE, BY WHICH I MEAN THAT I THINK IT'S WONDERFUL TO BE POLITE AND TO BE CIVIL, EVERYBODY SHOULD BE.

BUT I THINK GIRLS ARE RAISED WITH A PARTICULARLY INSIDIOUS IDEA THAT THEY HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO CATER TO THE EGOS OF MEN.

SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO PRETEND NOT TO BE AS INTELLIGENT AS YOU YOU ARE.

YOU CAN'T BE TOO FORWARD.

>> I WANT TO KNOW YOUR TAKE ON HILLARY CLINTON, WHO, YOU KNOW, IS ONE OF THE MOST PROFESSIONAL WOMEN IN ALL OF AMERICAN POLITICS, THE MOST EXPERIENCED, AND YET THERE WAS THIS LIKABILITY THING THAT KEPT GETTING THROWN AT HER.

>> I REMEMBER THINKING WHEN I WOULD READ ALL OF THIS COVERAGE ABOUT HER, WHY WE HAD TO KEEP HEARING ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT SHE WAS LIKABLE.

WHY WAS IT EVEN A SUBJECT.

WHY DIDN'T WE HEAR THAT ABOUT HER MALE OPPONENT.

I THINK WOMEN WHO SEEK POWER, OR WOMEN WHO HAVE POWER, MAKE PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE.

AND SO WE FIND WAYS TO JUDGE THEM IN WAYS THAT WE WOULDN'T JUDGE MEN WHO ARE SEEKING POWER OR MEN WHO HAVE POWER, AND THERE'S A LOT OF IT THAT I THINK WAS MISOGYNY, IT REALLY WAS.

>> ON THAT NOTE, CHIMAMANDA NGOZI ADICHIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING ME TONIGHT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, IT'S BEEN LOVELY.

>>> AND AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER, PRESIDENT BIDEN DISPELLED DOUBTS ABOUT HIS AGE AT LAST NIGHT'S STATE OF THE UNION.

SINCE THE START OF HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, BIDEN'S EVERY SLIP UP HAS BEEN UNDER THE MICROSCOPE, FROM MOMENTARY FORGETFULNESS TO MISSPOKEN WORDS.

OUR NEXT GUEST BELIEVES WE HAVE BEEN OVERSIMPLIFYING THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT AGE AND MEMORY.

IN HIS NEW BOOK "WHY WE REMEMBER," THE AUTHOR SHARES YEARS OF HIS RESEARCH.

AND HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN IN THIS CONVERSATION.

>> CHARAN RANGANATH, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE IDEAS YOU DISCUSS IN YOUR BOOK, AND FOR ME IT SORT OF DISTILLS DOWN AS SOMEONE WHO IS ENTERING FULL STRIDE MIDLIFE ABOUT MEMORIES AND HOW MY BRAIN IS FORMING THEM.

WHAT ARE WE GETTING WRONG ABOUT OUR UNDERSTANDING OF MEMORY, HOW WE FORM THEM, HOW IMPORTANT THEY ARE?

>> I THINK THE BIG THING THAT PEOPLE GET WRONG ABOUT MEMORY IS THIS EXPECTATION THAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO REMEMBER EVERYTHING AND WE'RE SUPPOSED TO REMEMBER EVERYTHING AS IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

AND WE KNOW JUST FROM THE SCIENCE THAT THAT'S NOT TRUE.

NOBODY THAT'S EVER BEEN STUDIED REMEMBERS EVERYTHING.

SO RIGHT OFF THE BAT, WE KNOW THAT PEOPLE'S EXPECTATIONS ARE OUT OF WHACK, AND SO THEN THE QUESTION IS, WELL, WHAT IS THE FUNCTION OF MEMORY, AND AS I TALK ABOUT IN MY BOOK, ALMOST ALL THE SIGNS POINT TO THIS IDEA THAT THE FUNCTION OF MEMORY IS REALLY NOT ABOUT THE PAST AT ALL.

IT'S ABOUT THE PRESENT AND ABOUT THE FUTURE.

>> EXPLAIN THAT.

WHAT DOES MEMORY HAVE TO DO WITH THE FUTURE OR THE PRESENT?

>> WELL, SO LET'S JUST TAKE THE PRESENT, FOR EXAMPLE, SO WE AND OTHERS HAVE FOUND THAT WHEN PEOPLE WATCH A MOVIE, SAY, OR THEY LISTEN TO A STORY, WE CAN SEE THE SAME CIRCUITRY THAT'S INVOLVED IN MEMORY THAT IS CURRENTLY BEING INVOLVED IN JUST UNDERSTANDING WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING IN THE MOMENT.

AND THE REASON IS THAT EVEN TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING IN YOUR NEWS SHOW, WHICH IS EXCEPTIONALLY CLEAR, PEOPLE ARE GOING BACK AND ENGAGING IN THIS KIND OF MEMORY RETRIEVAL IN THE MOMENT, JUST TO FOLLOW WHAT'S GOING ON, AND THE REASON THEY'RE DOING THAT IS BECAUSE THEY REALLY WANT TO KNOW NOT WHERE YOU ARE NOW, BUT WHERE YOU'RE GOING, AND SO THAT'S JUST A VERY MUNDANE EXAMPLE OF THE KINDS OF FUNCTIONS MEMORY HAS IN EVERY DAY LIFE.

THINK ABOUT, YOU WAKE UP IN A HOTEL ROOM, FOR INSTANCE, YOUR FIRST QUESTION IS, WHERE AM I.

WITHOUT MEMORY, YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

YOU'RE FLOATING IN TIME AND SPACE, RIGHT.

AND AS MUCH AS THIS IS SOMETHING THAT JUST KIND OF COMES AUTOMATICALLY TO US, IF YOU HAVE A MEMORY DISORDER, THAT'S IT, YOU ARE JUST THERE.

RIGHT.

SO SOMETHING THAT BOTH ANCHORS US IN TIME AND SPACE, AND GIVES US A SENSE OF WHO WE ARE IN THE MOMENT.

>> YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "WHY WE REMEMBER UNLOCKING MEMORY'S POWER TO HOLD ON TO WHAT MATTERS," SO THE WHAT MATTERS, HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN ON FIGURING OUT WHAT'S IMPORTANT AND WHAT'S NOT IMPORTANT SO WE CAN RECALL IT LATER?

>> SO EVENTS THAT TEND TO EVOKE EMOTIONS, LIKE THINGS THAT SCARE YOU OR EVENTS WHERE YOU'RE ANGRY OR EVENTS WHERE YOU'RE SAD, WE CAN SEE CHEMICALS IN THE BRAIN CALLED NEUROMODULATORS, WHICH VIEWERS MIGHT KNOW SOME OF THE CHEMICALS LIKE DOPAMINE, AND SEROTONIN, AND THESE PROMOTE PLASTICITY.

THEY ALLOW THE EXPERIENCES TO BE MORE RESILIENT OVER TIME AND THOSE MEMORIES STICK AROUND.

SO SOMETIMES THERE ARE THINGS THAT YOUR BRAIN HAS JUST DECIDED OFFHAND, AND I DON'T MEAN TO BE MORPHIC WITH THE BRAIN, BUT THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT, AND ALSO YOUR OWN ATTENTION, THE THINGS YOU PAY ATTENTION TO CAN ALSO TAG THOSE EXPERIENCES AS IMPORTANT.

>> YOU DESCRIBE A PHENOMENON CALLED EVENT BOUNDARIES, EXPLAIN TO OUR AUDIENCE A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT THAT IS.

>> SO EVENT BOUNDARIES IN THE REAL WORLD TEND TO BE THINGS LIKE I SHOW UP IN MY KITCHEN AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I'M LIKE, OH, WHAT AM I DOING HERE, I HAVE NO IDEA.

I GRAB A BAG OF CHIPS, START EATING, GO BACK TO MY HOME OFFICE AND REALIZE, OH, WAIT A MINUTE, I LEFT MY PHONE THERE.

AND I GO BACK, AND IF I'M LUCKY I DON'T FORGET WHY I WENT TO THE KITCHEN AGAIN.

SO THESE EXPERIENCES TEND TO HAPPEN BECAUSE WHEN WE CHANGE OUR MENTAL CONTEXT, THAT IS OUR SENSE OF WHERE WE ARE AND WHAT'S GOING ON, WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT WE'RE KEEPING IN OUR HEAD TENDS TO GET FLUSHED OUT.

AND SO WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS LIKE WHEN YOU CROSS A DOORWAY, FOR INSTANCE, YOUR SENSE IS THAT I'M IN ANOTHER ROOM.

YOU DO DIFFERENT ACTIVITIES IN THE KITCHEN THAN YOU DO IN THE HOME OFFICE.

YOUR BRAIN IS ALREADY PREPARING FOR I'M IN THE KITCHEN WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO.

WHAT TYPICALLY HAPPENS IN THE KITCHEN?

I TEND TO GET FOOD.

SO YOU END UP WITH A LOT OF EMPTY CAL CALORIE BECAUSE YOU'VE HIT THIS BOUNDARY AND YOUR BRAIN IS SWITCHING INTO FOOD MODE.

>> I WONDER WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THE BOUNDARIES IN OUR ALLEGED MULTITASKING WORLD WHERE WE SEEM TO REALLY TAKE PRIDE IN DOING SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS AT ONCE.

I WONDER IF WE'RE KIND OF ERASING THOSE BOUNDARIES AND MAKING IT HARDER FOR US TO RECALL THINGS IN PROPER CONTEXT BECAUSE, WHILE I COULD BE DOING THIS INTERVIEW, I'M ALSO ON MY PHONE.

WHATEVER, THERE'S THREE THINGS GOING ON.

>> I'M SURE YOU'RE ACTUALLY PAYING FULL ATTENTION NOW.

>> I AM.

>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION, IT'S SOMETHING I'LL STRUGGLE WITH TOO.

I'M SITTING IN CONFERENCES, I'M UNDER STRESS, CHECKING E-MAILS, AND I'M NOT PROUD OF THIS BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS IS EVERY TIME I SWITCH BETWEEN ONE TASK AND ANOTHER, MY BRAIN IS NOW SHIFTING MY MENTAL CONTEXT AND CREATED AN EVENT BOUNDARY, OKAY, BRAIN, LET'S PACK THIS EVENT INTO MEMORY.

BUT I'M PACKAGING THESE LITTLE IMPOVERISHED EVENTS AND EVERY TIME I SWITCH OVER, MY BRAIN TAKES A LITTLE BIT OF TIME.

I'M USING SOME OF MY MENTAL RESOURCES JUST TO GET CAUGHT UP AGAIN.

NOW IMAGINE WHAT'S HAPPENING AGAIN, YOU'RE GETTING A FRAGMENT OF INFORMATION IN MEMORY EVERY TIME I SWITCH AND THOSE FRAGMENTS ARE NEVER REALLY THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE I'M JUST GETTING CAUGHT UP.

IT'S NO SURPRISE AFTERWARDS YOU HAVE ALMOST THIS SENSE OF AMNESIA, LIKE WHAT HAPPENED.

BUT YOU CAN HAVE THE OPPOSITE PROBLEM OF NOT ENOUGH BOUNDARIES AND I THINK DURING THE PANDEMIC, WE WERE SITTING FOR HOURS AND HOURS AT A TIME IN FRONT OF OUR COMPUTERS AND YOU END THE WEEK AND YOU'RE LIKE WHAT'S HAPPENED.

AND THIS IS BECAUSE WE JUST HAVE THESE LONG EXPERIENCES THAT ARE JUST MONOTONOUS AND NOTHING THAT STICKS OUT AS MEMORABLE.

>> YOU HAD A SECTION OF THE BOOK, YOU WERE COMPARING HUMANS TO RO BOTS.

HUMANS ONE.

>> GENERATIVE AI, THEY REQUIRE GOBS AND GOBS OF DATA TO BE TRAINED APPROPRIATELY, AND THEY USE TONS OF ENERGY.

THINK OF THE CARBON FOOTPRINT OF SOMETHING LIKE CHATGPT, AND NOW YOU LOOK AT HUMANS.

AND SUGGEST THAT OUR ENERGY EXPENDITURES IS 10 TO 20 WATTS SO WE'RE DOING A LOT WITH VERY LITTLE POWER EXPENDITURE, AND PART OF THE REASON IS THAT WE ACTUALLY DO A LOT MORE WITH A LOT LESS, AND HUMANS HAVE THIS CAPABILITY WHICH WE CALL EPISODIC MEMORY, THIS ABILITY TO RECALL OUR LIVED EXPERIENCES THAT HAPPEN AT ONE TIME AND ONE PLACE.

AND SO FOR INSTANCE, YOU HAVE A FAVORITE RESTAURANT THAT YOU GO TO, AND THEN ONE DAY YOU SHOW UP AND YOU SEE A SIGN THAT SAYS UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT.

YOU HAVE A TERRIBLE MEAL.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO BACK THERE.

YOU CAN STOP ON A DIME, AND CHANGE.

AND IT'S ALMOST LIKE YOUR BRAIN IS THIS SPORTS CAR, THIS HIGH PERFORMANCE, SOMEHOW IT USES LOW AMOUNTS OF FUEL.

NOW CHATGPT IS MORE LIKE THIS LUMBERING CARGO TRUCK, A CONTAINER SHIP.

YOU HAVE TO STOP IT ON THE DIME AND TURN AND GOOD LUCK TO YOU, IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LOT MORE DATA TO DO THAT.

AND SO THIS IS WHERE HUMANS HAVE REAL OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE MY EXPERIENCES ARE DIFFERENT THAN YOUR EXPERIENCES.

AND WE ALL HAVE IDIOSYNCRATIC THINGS WE'VE READ AND PEOPLE WE KNOW.

THE MORE WE CAN RELY ON THAT AND DIVERSIFY TRAINING DATA, THE MORE CREATIVE WE CAN BE, AND THE MORE RELEVANT WE CAN BE IN THE AGE OF AI.

>> YOU WROTE AN OPEN ED, I'M A NEUROSCIENTIST, WE'RE THINKING ABOUT BIDEN'S MEMORY AND AGE IN THE WRONG WAY.

FOR PEOPLE THAT MIGHT NOT HAVE READ THAT, WHAT ARE WE GETTING WRONG WHEN WE LOOK AT SOMEBODY LIKE PRESIDENT BIDEN AND WHEN WE CONSIDER THAT MEMORY OR HIS ABILITY TO REMEMBER THINGS IN THE CONTEXT OF WHETHER OR NOT HE'S QUALIFIED TO BE COMMANDER IN CHIEF?

>> WELL, WHEN I READ THE SUMMERIES IN THE NEWS ABOUT THE SPECIAL COUNSEL'S REPORT WHERE THEY DESCRIBED HIM AS AN ELDERLY MAN WITH A POOR MEMORY, I IMMEDIATELY WAS ATTRACTED TO THIS BECAUSE I SAY, WELL, I STUDY MEMORY, LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENED.

AND SO I WENT INTO THE REPORT AND THE CASES THAT I FOUND AND THE THINGS THAT WERE BEING DISCUSSED IN THE MEDIA WERE NOT THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WOULD CONCERN ME BECAUSE I THINK WHEN PEOPLE SAY ELDERLY MAN, POOR MEMORY, IT HAS BUTTONS ON STIR OWE TYPES THAT WE HAVE, ESPECIALLY IN THE U.S. ABOUT OLDER ADULTS AND I THINK THE FIRST THING THAT COMES TO MIND FOR MANY PEOPLE IS ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE, AND WHAT I WANTED TO MAKE CLEAR IN THIS EDITORIAL IS NUMBER ONE, THERE'S A LOT OF VARIABILITY IN AGEING.

SOME PEOPLE THEIR MEMORY DROPS OFF PRECIPITOUSLY, OTHER PEOPLE, IT GOES WELL AND THEY PRESERVE A LOT OF THOSE ABILITIES.

THE SECOND THING IS THAT OFTEN AS WE GET OLDER, THERE ARE RETRIEVAL FAILURES THAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT WHERE THE MEMORY IS THERE, BUT WE JUST CAN'T GET THE DETAILS OR WE'RE STRUGGLING TO PULL UP INFORMATION OR SOMETIMES WE MAKE A MISTAKE AND IT TAKES US A WHILE TO CORRECT IT.

THE EXAMPLES I SAW IN THE SPECIAL COUNSEL'S REPORT WERE ALL OF THESE KINDS OF PHENOMENON WHERE IT'S NOT THAT BIDEN DIDN'T REMEMBER HIS LAST YEAR OF THE PRESIDENCY OR NO MEMORIES OF HI SON'S DEATH, IT WAS THAT HE COULDN'T PULL OUT THE YEAR THAT THESE THINGS HAPPENED WHEN YOU NEED IT.

AND I WOULD BE HARD PRESSED TO FIND SOMEBODY AT HIS AGE WHO DOESN'T HAVE THAT PROBLEM FROM TIME TO TIME.

I LOOK AT THIS, AND OTHER PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT BIDEN, WHAT ARE THEY SEEING.

SOMEBODY WITH GRAY HAIR.

MAYBE THEY'RE JUDGING HIM ON HIS APPEARANCE OR TRUMP, TOO, I WANT TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S A PARTISAN ISSUE.

ONE IN SIX AMERICANS ARE OVER THE AGE OF 65.

AND WHEN PEOPLE LOOK AT SOMEONE WHO'S OLDER, ESPECIALLY IN THIS CONCERN, AND THEY SEE SOMEONE WHO MAYBE IS NOT MOVING AS WELL AS A YOUNG ADULT, THEY'RE NOT SPEAKING AS FLUENTLY AS A YOUNG ADULT, THEY MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT MEMORY THAT ARE JUST UNTRUE.

>> I WONDER, I MEAN, CONSIDERING THAT WE HAVE TWO OF THE OLDEST CANDIDATES EVER RUNNING FOR THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND, THERE ARE PEOPLE SAYING, HEY, MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE COGNITIVE TESTS BE PART OF THE QUALIFICATIONS OR, I MEAN, YOU KNOW SOME OF THAT SOUNDS JUST AGEIST ON ITS FACE, AND THEN I ALSO WONDER, YOU KNOW, BIOLOGY DOESN'T LIE.

THE PHYSICAL RECOVERY AT 85 FROM EVEN A SUDDEN SLIP AND FALL IS GOING TO BE VERY DIFFERENT THAN IT IS AT 65, WHICH IS DIFFERENT THAN IT IS AT 45, RIGHT.

SO I WONDER WHETHER WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT A CANDIDATE'S COGNITIVE ABILITY AND HOW WE WOULD EVEN MEASURE THAT.

>> SO I BELIEVE THAT IT WOULD MAKE SENSE, AND WE CERTAINLY NEED TO HAVE A NATIONAL CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS.

I'M NOT IN A POSITION TO TELL VOTERS, I'M A SCIENTIST, I'M NOT IN A POSITION TO TELL VOTERS WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.

WHAT I WOULD SAY IS YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

AS WE GET OLDER OUR RISKS FOR ALL SORTS OF HEALTH PROBLEMS CHANGES, AND PUBLIC PERCEPTION IS OFTEN INACCURATE.

I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE OFTEN MAKING THEIR PERCEPTIONS AND THINGS THAT HAVE NO BEARING ON PEOPLE'S COGNITIVE ABILITIES.

YOU CAN DO A FAIRLY RIGOROUS COGNITIVE ASSESSMENT OVER THE COURSE OF A COUPLE OF DAYS AND THE ABILITY TO PREDICT FUNCTIONING WON'T BE PERFECT BUT IT WOULD BE PRETTY GOOD, AND WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT THOSE KIND OF ASSESSMENTS COMBINED WITH PEOPLE, COMBINED WITH A HEALTH ASSESSMENT, AND I LOVE MEMORY BUT THERE'S ALL SORTS OF OTHER ABILITIES AND SOME OF THESE SHOULDN'T CHANGE WITH AGE, LIKE COMPASSION OR THE ABILITY TO REGULATION EMOTIONS SO YOU DON'T GO UNHINGED OR SEMANTIC KNOWLEDGE, KNOWLEDGE OF THE FACTS AND THE PRESIDENT SHOULD BE AWARE OF A LOT OF FACTS THAT ARE NEEDED TO DO THE JOB.

THERE'S NO OBVIOUS LINE AS TO HOW GOOD SOMEONE HAS TO BE IN ANY OF THESE THINGS.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS I HAVE TALKED TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE SERIOUS DISORDERS THAT HAVE NO ABILITY TO FUNCTION IN THE REAL WORLD, AND THEY SOUND FLUENT.

THEY SEEM CONFIDENT.

THEY LOOK GOOD.

AND SO I WOULD SERIOUSLY CAUTION THE PUBLIC, BECAUSE I GOT A LOT OF LETTERS ABOUT THIS SAYING, YOU'RE EXPECTING ME NOT TO BELIEVE WHAT I HAVE SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES.

YES, BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO NOT BELIEVING WHAT WE HAVE SEEN WITH OUR OWN EYES, I WONDER WHAT HAPPENS IN A WORLD WHERE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE CREATES MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR YOUR EYES TO BE FOOLED.

HOW DO WE RECONCILE THAT IN THE BRAIN?

>> WE'RE STILL CATCHING UP TO WHERE THE TECHNOLOGY IS IN TERMS OF OUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW PEOPLE RESPOND TO MISINFORMATION.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE, EVEN IF WE HAVE BEEN INFORMED, HEY, THIS IS FAKE NEWS.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO TELL IN MEMORY WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING WAS FAKE OR WHETHER IT WAS REAL.

AND IT TAKES PEOPLE TIME.

YOU HAVE TO USE THESE RESOURCES THAT YOU USE TO KEEP YOUR MEMORY ACCURATE, THESE MENTAL RESOURCES, AND YEAH, IT DOES GET WORSE WITH YOU'RE UNDER STRESS, WORSE WHEN YOU'RE NOT SLEEPING WELL, WORSE WHEN YOU GET OLTDER.

THESE ARE ALL FEATURES OF MODERN LIFE.

WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT THERE IS RESEARCH OUT THERE TO MITIGATE THE EFFECTS OF MISINFORMATION, AND DEFINITELY THE MEDIA, ESPECIALLY SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES I THINK HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO, AND I HOPE THE SUPREME COURT KEEPS THIS IN MIND THAT, YOU KNOW, WE REALLY HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO LABEL THINGS THAT ARE OBVIOUS MISINFORMATION.

PEOPLE ALSO NEED TO PLAY THEIR PART IN TERMS OF GIVING THEMSELVES THE TIME TO ACTUALLY CRITICALLY EVALUATE THEIR MEMORY.

>> SO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN OUR BRAINS WHEN WE SEE A PIECE OF FAKE NEWS?

>> WHAT WE CAN SAY IS THAT THERE'S PROBABLY, IF IT'S VERY CONVINCING FAKE NEWS, IT WOULD BE JUST LIKE WATCHING REAL NEWS, RIGHT, YOU'RE STRUGGLING TO UNDERSTAND IT.

YOU MAKE SENSE OF IT SOMEHOW, AND SO SOMETIMES THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF A SENSE OF MENTAL CONFLICT IF IT DOESN'T AGREE WITH WHAT YOU THINK.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE'S MEMORY BIASES SEEM TO REINFORCE.

IF YOU WATCH TRUE NEWS, YOU'LL SEE TWO PEOPLE WALK A DEBATE, AND THEY'LL WALK AWAY WITH DIFFERENT MEMORIES OF HOW THE DEBATE WENT BASED ON THE PARTISAN BELIEFS THEY HAD TO BEGIN WITH.

YOU GET INTO THE WORLD OF FAKE NEWS, AND IT GETS HARDER, YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU HAPPY, YOU LIKE IT.

I'LL GO WITH THAT, RATHER THAN PUTTING IN THE WORK TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT IF THIS WAS ACCURATE OR NOT.

>> YOU TALK IN THE BOOK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW WE MIGHT BE SUSCEPTIBLE TO A SOCIETAL OR COLLECTIVE MEMORY.

HOW DOES THAT WORK?

BECAUSE IT DOES SEEM THAT, WELL, IN SOME CASES, WE DON'T LEARN FROM HISTORY, WE REPEAT THE MISTAKES.

BUT THAT EVEN IF IT'S A SPECIFIC INCIDENT GIVEN THE BENEFIT OR COST OF TIME, THAT WE COLLECTIVELY SEEM TO REMEMBER SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY.

>> SO ONE OF THE FACTORS THAT'S BEEN STUDIED IN COLLECTIVE MEMORY, WHICH IS ESSENTIAL HOW PEOPLE'S MEMORIES ARE TRANSFORMED BY SOCIAL INTERACTIONS, ONE OF THE FACTORS THAT'S BEEN STUDIED IS HOW SELECTIVE PEOPLE CAN BE.

OFTEN IF YOU AND I REMEMBER THE SAME EVENT AND WE TALK ABOUT IT, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE WILL REMEMBER LESS THAN HAD WE EXPERIENCED THESE THINGS ON OUR OWN, AND NOT TALKED ABOUT IT.

SO WHAT THAT SUGGESTS IS THAT SOMEHOW THERE'S A PROCESS BY WHICH YOU AND I TALK ABOUT IT, AND THERE'S SOME PRUNING OF THE MEMORIES, AND SO SUNY STONYBURG HAS STUDIED THIS, FOR INSTANCE.

ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE FOUND IS THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE THE DOMINANT NARRATORS, PEOPLE WHO TEND TO BE MORE POWERFUL, TEND TO BE MORE LOUD AND OBNOXIOUS CAN TAKE UP A LOT OF THE DISCUSSION, SO WHAT PEOPLE REMEMBER THAT WOULD NORMAL BY IDIOSYNCRATIC LIKE I TALKED ABOUT BEFORE, TENDS TO HONE IN ON THE SHARED AMOUNT OF INFORMATION THAT OVERLAPS WITH THIS DOMINANT SPEAKER.

SO THE ONLY WAY AROUND THIS IS TO LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT OTHERWISE BE IGNORED, AND THIS OFTEN HAPPENS TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE OLDER, WHO ARE ELDERLY OR PEOPLE WITH CHILDREN OR FROM MARGINALIZED GROUPS, AND THAT'S ACTUALLY A KEY TO HOW COLLECTIVE MEMORY CAN BE IMPROVED, AND SO THIS IS SCIENCE.

THIS ISN'T JUST SOME POLITICAL STATEMENT.

IT'S JUST THE WAY THINGS ARE.

>> CHARAN RANGANATH, THE BOOK IS CALLED "WHY WE REMEMBER, UNLOCKING MEMORY'S POWER TO HOLD ON TO WHAT MATTERS," THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, HARI, IT'S BEEN GREAT TO BE HERE.

>>> AND FINALLY FOR US, THIS GREEK GRANDMOTHER IS SPREADING LOVE TO CHILDREN AROUND THE WORLD ONE CROCHET STITCH AT A TIME.

93-YEAR-OLD IONA MANTUKA SPENDS HER DAYS MAKING SCARVES AT HOME, QUICKLY SNOWBALLING INTO BALGS OF VIBRANT DONATIONS WHICH SHE SENDS TO KIDS IN UKRAINE AND REFUGEE CAMPS IN GREECE.

BOYS AND GIRLS WEARING HER CREATIONS HAVE SHOWN THEIR APPRECIATION WITH LETTERS AND DRAWINGS.

DESPITE HER DECLINING HEALTH, SHE SAYS UNTIL I DIE, I WILL BE KNITTING.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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