>> O'Connell: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I'M SUE O'CONNELL, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

THE SCENES OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION IN UKRAINE, ALONG WITH THE MILLIONS OF REFUGEES FLEEING THE RUSSIAN INVASION, HAVE BEEN MET WITH SYMPATHY AND SUPPORT FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

BUT WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE FLEEING VIOLENCE AND OPPRESSION IN OTHER COUNTRIES?

THEN, LATER, HOST OF GBH NEWS' "ALL THINGS CONSIDERED," ARUN RATH, JOINS ME AHEAD OF A SPECIAL EDITION OF "IN IT TOGETHER" TOMORROW NIGHT, MARKING THE TWO-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE COVID CRISIS.

♪♪ >> O'Connell: AFTER GOING DAYS WITHOUT ELECTRICITY, HEAT, FOOD, OR WATER, UKRAINIANS TRAPPED BY CONSTANT SHELLING IN THE CITY OF MARIUPOL WERE THE TARGETS TODAY OF ONE OF THE WORST ATTACKS YET.

ACCORDING TO UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS, RUSSIAN AIRSTRIKES DESTROYED A MATERNITY AND CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL, FULL OF SOME OF THE MOST DEFENSELESS CITIZENS IN THIS WAR.

FOR THE LUCKY WHO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FLEE, THE JOURNEY HAS BEEN A TRAUMATIC ONE, WITH MORE THAN A MILLION CHILDREN MANAGING TO CROSS AT VARIOUS BORDERS, MOST HAVING TO LEAVE BEHIND FATHERS AND OLDER BROTHERS WHO ARE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE.

AND THE FOOTAGE HAS BEEN HEART-WRENCHING.

ONE SCENE THAT GOT A LOT OF ATTENTION ON SOCIAL MEDIA THIS WEEK WAS THIS VIDEO OF A YOUNG BOY SOBBING AS HE CROSSED INTO POLAND.

AT FIRST, MANY BELIEVED HE WAS ALL ALONE.

POLISH MEDIA LATER REPORTED HIS MOTHER WAS AHEAD.

BUT, STILL, HIS PAIN IS Z VISCERAL, PROMPTING SOME TO ASK: "HOW DOES ONE SEE THIS THEN TURN AROUND AND COMPLAIN ABOUT GAS PRICES?

THIS IS HEARTBREAKING."

AND IT IS.

BUT AS MANY HAVE ALSO CORRECTLY POINTED OUT, NOT ALL YOUNG REFUGEES HAVE BEEN RECEIVED WITH SUCH OPEN ARMS, AND MANY ARE STILL UFFERING IN RELATIVE SILENCE, LIKE THOSE IN AFGHANISTAN, TRYING TO SURVIVE A HUNGER CRISIS AFTER 20 YEARS OF WAR AND THE RESURGENCE OF THE TALIBAN.

IT'S A SITUATION SO DIRE THAT A UNICEF OFFICIAL RECENTLY WARNED: "WITHOUT URGENT, CONCERTED ACTION, MANY OF THE COUNTRY'S CHILDREN WILL NOT LIVE TO SEE SPRING."

THEN THERE ARE THE KIDS FLEEING GANG WARFARE IN CENTRAL AMERICA AND MEXICO, SOMETIMES WITH FAMILY, SOMETIMES ALONE, UNABLE TO APPLY FOR ASYLUM IN THE U.S. AS BIDEN CONTINUES A TRUMP-ERA POLICY.

I'M JOINED BY JACQUELINE BHABHA, A LONG-TIME HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER WHO IS DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH AT THE F.X.B.

CENTER FOR HEALTH AND HUMAN RIGHTS; AND SUE ROSES, AN IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY WHO IS DIRECTOR OF LEGAL PROGRAMS WITH THE RIAN CENTER IN BOSTON.

>> O'Connell: WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

JACQUELINE, I WANT TO START WITH YOU FIRST.

IF YOU COULD JUST LET ME KNOW WHAT YOUR TAKE IS ON WHY SOME OF THESE CRISES GET OUR ATTENTION FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, AND WHY OTHERS WE EITHER GET NUMB TO OR JUST DON'T PAY ENOUGH ATTENTION TO?

>> SO I THINK, UM, IT DEPENDS WHO THE "WE" YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS.

BECAUSE "WE," THE CONSUMER OF NEWSOF NEWS, OF TELEVISION, OF RADIO, OF NEWSPAPER REPORTS, I THINK ARE VERY OFTEN TAKEN BY THESE STORIES FOR QUITE LONG PERIODS OF TIME.

SO IF THE "WE" IS THE PUBLIC, I THINK THAT EXPOSURE TO THE HEART-WRENCHING SUFFERING OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS REALLY TOUCHES US.

AND I DON'T THINK PEOPLE ARE FATIGUES THAT FATIGUED THAT QUICKLY.

IF "WE" ARE THE JOURNALISTS OR THE NEWSPAPER EDITORS, THERE ARE DIFFERENT DEMANDS ON THEIR ATTENTION.

I WAS TALKING TO SOME UKRAINIAN COLLEAGUES WHO SAID WE REALIZE THAT THE WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY WITH GLOBAL MEDIA IS LIMITED, AND SO WE WANT TO GET THIS MESSAGE OUT URGENTLY BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT THINGS WILL SHIFT.

AND, INDEED, IT WAS ALSO TALKING TO A FRIEND WHO SAID EXACTLY THE SAME: ALL OF THE ATTENTION IS NOW ON UKRAINE, AND UNDERSTANDABLY SO.

BUT IN AFGHANISTAN, THE SITUATION HAS GONE FROM BAD TO WORSE.

AND SO I THINK IT IS REALLY A QUESTION OF THE CHANNELS OF COMMUNICATION THAT WE ARE ABLE TO ENCOUNTER.

IT IS NOT SO MUCH THAT AS CONSUMERS WE SHUT OFF BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE DO HAVE THE ABILITY FOR REALLY SUSTAINED SOLIDARITY IF THE STATES THAT THEY'RE IN CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THAT SOLIDARITY.

>> O'Connell: YEAH.

A NUMBER OF FOLKS THAT I SPOKE TO REMEMBER THE CHILD BEING PUT OVER THE FENCE IN AFGHANISTAN.

WE HAVE AN IMAGE OF THAT, THE BABY THAT WAS LIFTED OVER THE BARBED WIRE DURING THE ATTEMPTED EVACUATION FROM AFGHANISTAN.

THEY -- SHE WAS RETURNED WITH HER PARENTS ON A FLIGHT OUT OF KABUL, AND THEY NOW LIVE IN ARIZONA, SO A HAPPY ENDING THERE.

BUT, SUE, THE STORIES OF CHILDREN FLEEING AND BEING REFUGEES, ESPECIALLY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, IS NOT ONE THAT OFTEN HAS A HAPPY ENDING, ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE WHO ARE FLEEING FROM CENTRAL AMERICA AND MEXICO.

>> RIGHT.

THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

FREQUENTLY CENTRAL AMERICAN ASYLUMEES ARE FLEEING GANG VIOLENCE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND OTHER FORMS OF OPPRESSION ARE NOT VERY WELL RECEIVED FIRST AT THE BORDER.

THEY'RE OFTEN PLACED IN DETENTION FACILITIES, AS WE KNOW, UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THEY WERE OFTEN SEPARATED FROM FAMILY MEMBERS, AND THEY WERE TRANSFERRED TO RED CROSS SHELTERS.

SO THAT IS HOW THE PROCESS BEGINS, RIGHT?

AND HOPEFULLY THEY HAVE CONTACT OR SOME FAMILY IN THE UNITED STATES.

BUT ONCE THEY GET HERE, THEY'RE THROWN INTO A LEGAL SYSTEM THAT IS NOT DESIGNED TO PROTECT CHILDREN, THAT DOES NOT PROVIDE FOR LEGAL REPRESENTATION FOR CHILDREN.

SO THEY'RE VERY MUCH DEPENDENT ON ORGANIZATIONS LIKE "KIDS IN NEED OF DEFENSE," A NATIONAL ORGANIZATION THAT HELPS TRY TO FIND PRO BONO REPRESENTATION FOR CHILDREN WHO ARE IN THE ARCHIVES.

WE ONLY REPRESENT PEOPLE FROM OVER 120 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, SO WE HAVE MANY HAITIAN AND CENTRAL AMERICAN IMMIGRANTS SEEKING TO REMAIN IN THE U.S.

SO WE OFTEN HAVE TO TAKE SOME OF THESE SPECIAL IMMIGRANT JUVENILE CASES, AND THEY TAKE A VERY LONG TIME.

IT IS A LONG PROCESS.

IT IS MANY YEARS.

SOME DON'T HAVE WORK PERMITS AND THEY CAN'T GET DRIVERS' LICENSES FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, IF THEY'RE COMING FROM CENTRAL AMERICA.

>> O'Connell: JACQUELINE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS ALWAYS SHOCKED ME ABOUT HOW SOME PEOPLE REACT TO WELCOMING REFUGEES, AND JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, I KNOW WE DON'T LIVE IN THAT WORLD, BUT LET'S JUST SAY THERE ARE REFUGEES COMING INTO A COMMUNITY.

TO ME, THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HAVE THE FORTITUDE AND THE STRENGTH AND THE ABILITY TO GET THEIR FAMILY TO SAFETY, TO REALLY GO THROUGH THE HARDSHIPS AND THE TRAUMA THAT ALMOST EVERY REFUGEE GOES THROUGH TO GET SOMEWHERE SAFE, ARE EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PEOPLE THAT I WOULD WANT TO WELCOME INTO MY COMMUNITY AND INTO THIS COUNTRY.

WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO SORT OF GET THAT MESSAGE AND TO SEE FOLKS FLEEING HARDSHIP AND REFUGEES ENTERING OUR COMMUNITIES FOR THE VALUE THAT THEY BRING TO THIS COUNTRY.

COUNTRY.

>> I THINK WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN, TO ANSWER YOUR REALLY GOOD QUESTION, IS THAT THE GENEROSITY AND SOLIDARITY OF COMMUNITY MEMBERS LIKE YOU AND ME, HAS TO BE MATCHED WITH SUPPORT FROM GOVERNMENT AND STATE INSTITUTIONS.

SO I THINK THAT WE VERY OFTEN SEE AN OUTPOURING OF GENEROSITY.

AND WE'RE SEEING IT NOW IN EUROPE WITH UKRAINIANS, BUT WE SAW IT HERE WITH AFGHANS, AND WE SAW IT IN MEXICO WITH SOME OF THE CARAVANS AND SO ON.

AND YOU SEE IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.

I THINK THAT INSTINCT AND THAT HUMAN SOLIDARITY, THAT IDENTIFICATION WITH THE SUFFERING OF ANOTHER, PARTICULARLY AS YOU SAY PEOPLE WHO ARE ADMIRABLE, WHO HAVE SO MUCH TO OFFER, OFTEN COME WITH SKILLS AND WITH ENTHUSIASM, BUT EVEN THOSE WHO DON'T, FRANKLY, DESERVE OUR GENEROSITY AS WELL.

I THINK THE TROUBLE IS VERY OFTEN THAT GENEROSITY OF SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC IS NOT MATCHED BY A STATE THAT IS READY AND PREPARED, THAT ANTICIPATES THE NEED.

INSTEAD, PEOPLE FEEL THEY'RE ABANDONED WITH THEIR GENEROSITY AND NOBODY ELSE IS HELPING.

NOBODY IS PARTICIPATING.

NOBODY IS MAKING SURE THAT SCHOOLS ARE ABLE TO ACCEPT EXTRA CHILDREN OR THAT HEALTH CARE FACILITIES ARE EQUIPPED.

AND I THINK THAT IS THE REAL DIFFICULTY THAT WE FACE.

IF I COULD JUST SPEND ONE SECOND TALKING ABOUT UKRAINE, I THINK THE ONLY REALLY GOOD PIECE OF NEWS IN THIS HEART-WRENCHING TRAGEDY IS THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER THE EUROPEAN UNION HAS OPENED ITS DOORS AND SAID, YOU GUYS CAN COME AND YOU CAN STAY SAFELY FOR A YEAR, AT LEAST, UNTIL THE 4th OF MARCH, 2023.

IF YOU WERE IN UKRAINE ON THE 24th OF FEBRUARY, AND YOU LEFT THE 24th OF FEBRUARY, AND YOU'RE STILL LEAVING NOW, YOU ARE WELCOME AND YOU CAN CHOOSE WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO GO.

NOW, WHAT A DIFFERENCE THAT MAKES, NOT ONLY TO THE REFUGEES WHO ARE FLEEING, BUT ALSO TO THE COMMUNITIES BECAUSE THE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE HOSTING THEM KNOW THAT THESE PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO WORK, THEY'LL BE ABLE TO LOOK AFTER THEMSELVES.

THEY MAY YOUR HELP TODAY OR TOMORROW, BUT THEN THEY'LL BE UP AND RUNNING.

AND I THINK IN THE U.S., WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CENTRAL AMERICANS COME, IF THEY COME AND THEY HAVE A LEGAL AUTHORITY TO COME, AND THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO WORK AND SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES -- THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT -- THEN COMMUNITIES INTO WHICH THEY SETTLE WILL BE INCLINED TO ACCEPT TEM.

THEM.

BUT I KNOW WHEN PEOPLE FEEL THEY'LL HAVE TO CARRY THE BRUNT OF THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MONTHS ON END, THAT THEY'RE OWN QUALITY OF LIFE IS GOING TO BE THREATENED, THEN EVENTUALLY PEOPLE GET WEARY.

>> O'Connell: JACQUELINE MAKES A GOOD POINT.

I SAID DURING ONE OF THE WAVES OF THE MINORS COMING OVER, HAD THEY BEEN PUPPIES COMING OVER, PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN LINING UP TO BRING THEM HOME AND PAY MONEY AND FLYING THEM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

BUT BECAUSE MANY WERE CHILDREN, BLACK AND BROWN, THEY WEREN'T THE SAME AS IF THEY WERE PUGS COMING OVER.

WHAT CAN WE DO TO GET OR GOVERNMENT WEIGHING IN ON THIS?

WHAT CAN WE DO TO GET THE GOVERNMENT DO WHAT WE WOULD DO AS INDIVIDUALS, AND THEN HELP US AS A COMMUNITY TO PROVIDE REFUGE FOR THESE REFUGEES THAT DESERVE IT -- AND I MEAN THEY ALL DESERVE IT, IS WHAT I MEAN.

>> RIGHT, AND TO YOUR POINT -- I WAS READING AN ARTICLE OF A MOTHER WHO PUT HER CHILD ON A TRAIN TO SLOVENIA, AND THAT CHILD WAS RECEIVED AS A HERO.

WHEN CENTRAL AMERICAN PARENTS SEND THEIR KIDS TO THE AMERICAN BORDER, AND THEY'RE ON A TRAIN, THEY'RE NOT RECEIVED THE SAME WAY.

WE PUT THEM IN CAGES.

WE SEPARATE THEM FROM THEIR FAMILIES.

SO -- BUT YOUR QUESTION -- I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING REALLY IS TO GET INVOLVED POLITICALLY, TO BE COMMUNICATIVE WITH YOUR SENATORS, TO GET INVOLVED WITH HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS.

THERE IS -- THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS THAT YOU SHOULD BE IN TOUCH WITH.

BUT I THINK REALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THE POLITICAL LOBBYING WITH YOUR REPRESENTATIVES.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE TRY TO -- AT THE IMMIGRANT CENTER, SOMETIMES WE WILL REACH OUT TO CONGRESSIONAL AIDES FOR HELP, AND YOU'LL HAVE TO USE THOSE HUMANITARIAN STORIES.

YOU'LL HAVE TO SOMETIMES HAVE CLIENTS WHO ARE WILLING TO PUT THEIR OWN PERSONAL TRAUMA ON DISPLAY, IF YOU WILL, IN THE MEDIA, BUT WITH THE GOAL OF SHOWING THAT, LOOK, THIS IS BLACK OR BROWN OR WHITE -- THESE PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING.

THIS IS TRAUMA, AND THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY FOCUS ON EMPATHY.

FOR ALL OF THESE HUMAN BEINGS.

AND THEY WANTS TO CONTRIBUTE TO OUR SOCIETY, AND WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN AND CREATE LEGAL PATHS FOR THEM TO DO THAT.

>> O'Connell: JACQUELINE, WE JUST HAVE A COUPLE OF SECONDS LEFT, BUT I WOULD IMAGINE YOU WOULD AGREE A LOT OF THE TIME IF WE CAN FOCUS THE CONVERSATION AND CENTER THE CONVERSATION ON THE CHILDREN WHO ARE SUFFERING, IT MIGHT OPEN UP THE DOOR FOR OTHERS TO SEE THE PARENTS AND THE GRANDPARENTS THAT GO ALONG WITH THEM.

>> I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU.

I THINK THAT WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO HAVE A CHILD WHO YOU CAN'T COMFORT, OR A CHILD WHO IS WET OR WHO IS HUNGRY OR WHO IS IN DISTRESS.

EVERYBODY HAS FELT THAT PAIN.

AND SO WHILE ONE DOESN'T WANT TO EXPLOIT IMAGES OF SUFFERING IN OUR KIND OF DEGRADING WAY, AND ONE DOESN'T WANT TO PERMANENTLY CAST SOME GROUPS AS BEING ALWAYS VICTIMS, AT THE SAME TIME I THINK MOBILIZING SOLIDARITY IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

IT IS AN ENORMOUS CONTRIBUTION THAT YOU GUYS CAN MAKE.

>> Braude: JACQUELINE BHABHA AND SUE ROSES, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> O'Connell: TWO YEARS AGO TODAY, THE WORDS "COVID" AND "CORONAVIRUS" WERE REALLY JUST STARTING TO BECOME A PART OF OUR DAILY LANGUAGE.

CASE COUNTS WERE SUDDENLY CLIMBING AND MORE THAN 20 DEATHS IN AT LEAST 34 STATES MADE PEOPLE START TO PAY ATTENTION.

IT WAS TWO YEARS AGO TOMORROW THAT GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY, CALLING ON BUSINESS OWNERS, SCHOOLS, AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS TO SHUTTER DOWN FOR A FEW WEEKS.

>> THE HIGHLY CONTAGIOUS NATURE OF THIS DISEASE MEANS IF EVERYONE PLAYS THEIR PART IN SLOWING THE SPREAD, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO BECOME INFECTED AND REQUIRE MEDICAL ATTENTION DOESN'T SPIKE ALL AT ONCE, WHICH WOULD OVERWHELM MANY OF OUR SYSTEMS.

>> O'Connell: "FLATTENING THE CURVE," AS WAS SAID AD NAUSEAM.

AT THE TIME, THERE WERE 92 CONFIRMED COVID CASES IN MASSACHUSETTS.

NOW, TWO YEARS LATER, SIX MILLION PEOPLE HAVE DIED GLOBALLY, AND WE'RE NEARING A DEATH TOLL OF A MILLION PEOPLE IN THE U.S. ALONE, GRIM MILESTONES WE NEVER THOUGHT WE'D SEE.

BUT WE'VE ALSO MOVED OVER THOSE TWO YEARS FROM A TIME OF FEAR AND UNCERTAINTY, WITH LITTLE INFORMATION ABOUT HOW COVID SPREADS, TO GAIN A GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF THE VIRUS.

RESEARCH AND VACCINES HAVE LED TO REOPENINGS AND HOPE, WITH A RETURN TO "NORMALCY" -- OR PERHAPS A NEW NORMAL -- ON THE HORIZON.

IT'S A TWO-YEAR-LONG JOURNEY MY NEXT GUEST WILL BE REFLECTING ON TOMORROW NIGHT.

ARUN RATH IS EXECUTIVE EDITOR AND HOST OF "ALL THINGS CONSIDERED" AND "IN IT TOGETHER" HERE AT GBH.

>> O'Connell: WELCOME BACK SO MUCH.

IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU, VIRTUALLY.

>> O'Connell: EXACTLY.

I CAN'T TELL WOO WHAT A GREAT COMFORT "IN IT TOGETHER" WAS FOR ME.

IT CAME AT THE WINDOW, WHEN I WOULD ESCAPE THE HOUSE AS OFTEN AS I COULD TO DO AN ERRAND DURING THE LOCKDOWN.

TALK TO ME HOW THIS GREAT RADIO TRADITION OF GATHERING FOLKS DURING A TIME OF CRISIS, HOW IT CAME TO BE HERE ON GBH.

>> WECIALTION IT WELL, IT REALLY CAME TOGETHER IN THE WEEK OF THE LOCKDOWN.

IN A FEW WEEKS WE PULLED IT TOGETHER.

WE WOULD TAKE CALLS AND TALK EXPERTS, TO EXPERTS, AND THAT WAS THE BASIS FOR IT.

TWO YEARS AGO, WE WERE ALL FREAKING OUT AND WE HAD SO MANY FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW WE SHOULD LIVE OUR LIVES.

WE WOULD WASH OR GROCERIES.

WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING WITH OUR KIDS?

IT WAS SO MUCH OF IT THAT WAS A DISORIENTING TIME.

THE DURABILITY OF IT WAS MORE OF A SURPRISE, HOW IT TURNED INTO -- AS YOU MENTIONED IT, BEING FOR YOU, A REALLY VIABLE RESOURCE OVER THE MONTHS AS THE PANDEMIC ROARED ON.

>> O'Connell: ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVED ABOUT IT, OBVIOUSLY YOU SPOKE TO EXPERTS AND GOT THE INFORMATION AND SCIENCE AS IT WAS HAPPENING, AND WE'RE IN A GREAT FERTILE PLACE HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS FOR EXPERTS, BUT YOU ALSO TALKED TO REAL PEOPLE, WHO WERE HAVING REAL EXPERIENCES, AND THEY WERE ABLE TO ELOQUENTLY SHARE WITH YOU WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

TALK TO ME ABOUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE YOU TALKED TO, AND HOW THAT REALLY BROUGHT SUCH A RICHNESS TO THE PROGRAM.

>> WELL, IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE DEFINITELY THE PROGRAM HAS HAD MORE, YOU KNOW,, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, ORDINARY PEOPLE FEATURES THAN ANY OTHER SHOW I HAVE EVER WORKED ON.

AND IT HAS REALLY BEEN ONE OF THE STRENGTHS OF IT.

I HAVE TO SAY EVERY SINGLE, ORDINARY PERSON WE HAD ON WAS A GREAT GUEST.

WE'RE TALKING HUNDREDS OF SHOWS, AND THAT USUALLY DIDN'T HAPPEN IN BROADCASTING.

THEY WERE ALL FANTASTIC.

AND WE WOULD JUST -- YOU KNOW, IT WAS DIFFERENT FROM BOOKING YOUR TYPICAL RADIO PROGRAM BECAUSE WE WERE GOING RIGHT TO PEOPLE THAT WE KNOW.

WE HAD -- MY RABBI WAS ON THE SHOW A COUPLE OF TIMES.

WE HAD MY OWN VETERINARIAN WAS ACTUALLY ON THE SHOW AS WELL.

SO WE HAD A SEGMENT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO WERE FACING, YOU KNOW, KEEPING THEIR PETS DURING THE PANDEMIC.

IT REALLY -- I WOULD SAY SOME OF THE MOST POIGNANT MOMENTS WERE -- ONE WEEK IN PARTICULAR WE DID A SERIES OF REMEMBRANCES, WHERE WE WERE TALKING TO PEOPLE -- AND, AGAIN, NOT PEOPLE YOU WOULD HEAR FROM ORDINARILY, BUT ABOUT FAMILY MEMBERS THEY HAD LOST.

AND WE WOULD SPEND, YOU KNOW, A GOOD -- CONSIDER THIS -- I'M SORRY, AN "IN IT TOGETHER"-LENGTH INTERVIEW TALKING ABOUT THEIR LOVED ONE THEY LAUGHTER.

NOT ONLY WAS IT AMAZING FOR THEM AND MEANINGFUL FOR THEM, BUT FOR ALL OF US BECAUSE WE WEREN'T ABLE TO GRIEVE TOGETHER FOR SO LONG.

SO A PLACE TO GRIEVE WAS MAYBE ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS ABOUT IT.

>> O'Connell: I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THAT AS WELL.

WE'RE APPROACHING IN THE UNITED STATES THE FIGURE OF A MILLION PEOPLE OVER TWO YEARS THAT WE HAVE LOST.

I CONTINUE TO BE ASTOUNDED THAT, YOU KNOW -- I DON'T WANT TO SOUND JUDGEY, BUT I'M ASTOUNDED THAT WE'RE NOT MORE UPSET ABOUT THAT.

"IN IT TOGETHER" PROVIDED A PLACE WHERE FOLKS COULD GO AND ACTUALLY SHARE THE STORIES OF THEIR LOVED ONES.

I'M WONDERING AS WE HIT THIS TWO-YEAR MARK, WHAT ARE YOUR FEELINGS?

YOU WERE DOING THIS EVERY NIGHT, AND WE HAD ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS HAPPENING AS WELL, THE CALL FOR RACIAL JUSTICE AND EQUITY AS WELL AS THE ELECTION.

SO WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU TO GO THROUGH THIS AND APPROACHING THIS MILLION DEATH MARK?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE SHOW, IN A WAY, "IN IT TOGETHER," HELPED ME KEEP MY MENTAL HEALTH INTACT FORTOA LARGE EXTENT.

I I WAS FACING THE SAME THING, AND I WAS ABLE TO TALK TO EXPERTS IN REALTIME AND GET ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS.

IT REALLY WEIGHS VERY HEAVILY ON ME.

I WOULD DO THE NEWS BEFORE I WOULD DO "IN IT TOGETHER" AND I WAS THE PERSON EVERY DAY READING THE NUMBERS.

THE NUMBERS, READING THEM OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AS THEY GOT INTO THE THOUSANDS AND THE MILLIONS.

IT WAS GOOD TO HAVE SOMETHING STABLE LIKE "IN IT TOGETHER."

BUT UNLIKE THE NEWSCAST, I COULD TAKE A MINUTE, AND LIKE WALTER CRONKITE SAY, THIS IS AWFUL, EVERYBODY, AND HAVE A MOMENT ABOUT IT TOGETHER.

AND, YEAH, I GUESS IT IS GOING BACK TO HAVING A PLACE TO GRIEVE, WHICH HAS BEEN SO IMPORTANT.

I THINK IT REALLY HELPED GIVE ME STRENGTH GETTING THROUGH THIS.

>> O'Connell: AGAIN, WHAT I LOVED ABOUT IT WAS IT WAS GREAT TRADITIONAL RADIO AT A TIME WHEN WE HAVE SO MANY OTHER OPTIONS AND MANY OF THEM COMPLETELY WRONG AND NOT RELIABLE AND GIVING US BAD INFORMATION.

AND I FOUND A GREAT COMFORT TO HAVING IT BE IN A WAY I GREW UP WITH.

WHAT CAN FOLKS LOOK FORWARD TO IN THIS SPECIAL POP-UP EDITION?

>> WE'RE GOING TO TALK TO A LOT OF PEOPLE WE HAVE TALKED TO OVER THE YEARS.

THE ONE THAT STICKED WITH ME THE MOST IS GLAD GLADYS VEGA.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT HOW WE FOCUSED A LOT ON THE SHOW ABOUT THE COMMUNITIES WHO WERE DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTED BY THE PANDEMIC.

CHELSEA WAS A COVID HOT SPOT AND REPRESENTED A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE.

IT WAS GREAT TO CHECK WITH HER AND HEAR HOW GREAT THEY DID WITH THE VACCINATION EFFORTS, AND ALSO HOW MUCH IT MEANT TO THEM TO BE HEARD AND SEEN BY GBH.

AND HER ASK COMING OUT OF THIS WAS, PLEASE KEEP SEEING US.

SO THAT'S MY BIG TAKEERY RIGHT NOW.

>> O'Connell: WE DIRECT FOLKS TO THE "IN IT TOGETHER" POP-UP SHOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE WORK YOU HAVE DONE ON THIS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> O'Connell: AGAIN, YOU CAN CATCH THAT VERY SPECIAL EPISODE OF "IN IT TOGETHER" TOMORROW AT 7:00 ON GBH RADIO, www.gbhnews.org, OR THE GBH NEWS APP.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

JIM WILL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

>> HEY, FOLKS, EDWARD B. HERWICK III HERE FROM GBH'S "CURIOSITY DESK," WHERE YOU ASK QUESTIONS AND I FIND ANSWERS.

TODAY WE ARE ON LOCATION IN THE KITCHEN TO ANSWER A QUESTION FROM WAYNE FIRSTENBERG FROM NORTHBOROUGH.

>> I'M A BANANA GUY MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY AT MY ROUTINE MEALS, AND THAT'S MY SNACK LATE IN THE DAY.

AND THEN SOME DAYS I DON'T FEEL LIKE HAVING IT, OR I DON'T GET TO IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, BANANAS GET OLDER.

>> AND WHEN THOSE BANANAS GET OLDER, A FEW UNWELCOME GUESTS TEND TO APPEAR.

>> WHERE DO FRUIT FLIES COME FROM WHEN MY FRUIT IS ROTTING?

IT SEEMS LIKE AN ANNOYING MIRACLE THAT THEY JUST SUDDENLY APPEAR OUT OF NOWHERE.

♪♪ >> SHAKESPEARE MAY HAVE ASKED, "WHAT'S IN A NAME?"

BUT IN THE CASE OF FRUIT FLIES, WE'D BE WISE TO TAKE A MOMENT TO EXAMINE THE MONIKER, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THE LITTLE BUGS THAT ARE MESSING WITH WAYNE'S BANANAS AREN'T REALLY FRUIT FLIES AT ALL.

>> THE REAL FRUIT FLIES ARE ANOTHER GROUP OF ORGANISMS IN THE GROUP OF TEPHRITIDAE.

IF YOU'RE IN AUSTRALIA OR, YOU KNOW, WARMER CLIMATES AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FRUIT FLIES IN YOUR GARDEN OR FRUIT FLIES ATTACKING YOUR CROPS, THAT'S THE FRUIT FLY YOU'RE PROBABLY TALKING ABOUT.

>> HERE IN THE U.S., WHAT WE CALL FRUIT FLIES ARE ACTUALLY MEMBERS OF A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FAMILY OF INSPECTS, DROSOPHILIDAE.

AND THAT'S ABOUT 4,000 DIFFERENT SPECIES, A HANDFUL OF WHICH WE TEND TO SEE AROUND THE HOUSE.

AND HERE'S THE WEIRD THING: THEY DON'T EVEN EAT FRUIT.

>> WHEN WE SAY "FRUIT FLIES," WE KIND OF EXPECTED THIS ANIMAL'S ATTACKING YOUR FRUIT AND, YOU KNOW, RUINING YOUR FRUIT.

AND THAT'S NOT TRUE FOR THE DROSOPHILAS; THEY'RE ATTRACTED TO OVERRIPE AND ROTTEN FRUIT.

AND THEY'RE NOT -- THEIR LARVAE ARE NOT ACTUALLY CONSUMING MUCH OF THE FRUIT.

THEY'RE ACTUALLY MORE INTERESTED IN THE YEAST AND BACTERIA AND THINGS THAT ARE GROWING ON THE ROTTEN FRUIT.

>> THIS IS WHY SOME SCIENTISTS HAVE ADVOCATED FOR CALLING THEM PUMICE FLIES OR VINEGAR FLIES INSTEAD OF FRUIT FLIES.

>> THEY ARE ATTRACTED TO PARTICULAR SMELLS.

SO THINGS LIKE VINEGAR, ACETIC ACID, THOSE ODORS ARE REALLY ATTRACTIVE TO FEMALES BECAUSE THAT'S AN INDICATOR OF THE KIND OF ENVIRONMENT THAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR.

>> AND THEY'RE LOOKING FOR THAT KIND OF AN ENVIRONMENT TO LAY EGGS.

AND A TYPICAL KITCHEN IS A FRUIT FLY DREAM HOME.

FRUIT BOWLS, YES.

GARBAGE CANS, CHECK.

KITCHEN DRAINS, AFFIRMATIVE.

ALL PRIME LOCATIONS TO LAY EGGS.

AND, MAN, CAN THEY DO THAT.

A TYPICAL FRUIT FLY BREEDS AT A PACE THAT WOULD MAKE RABBITS BLUSH.

>> A FEMALE FRUIT FLY CAN LAY ROUGHLY 100 EGGS A DAY, AND SHE CAN LIVE FOR AROUND A MONTH IN SOME CASES.

SO, OVER TIME, THAT'S HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF EGGS PER FEMALE, IF THE CONDITIONS ARE RIGHT.

>> FRUIT FLIES MATURE FASTEST IN WARM TEMPERATURES.

SO WE TEND TO SEE MORE OF THEM IN THE SUMMER, WHEN WE ALSO HAVE A LOT OF FRESH FRUITS AND VEGGIES AROUND.

NOW, WHEN CONDITIONS ARE RIGHT, FRUIT FLIES CAN GO FROM EGG TO ADULT IN JUST OVER A WEEK.

SO YOU CAN EASILY HAVE A SCENARIO WHERE JUST TWO OR THREE TEENY LITTLE FRUIT FLIES MAKE THEIR WAY INTO YOUR KITCHEN THROUGH A WINDOW OR A DOOR, TOTALLY UNDETECTED, AND A WEEK LATER YOU LITERALLY HAVE HUNDREDS OF THEM BEING BORN AND BRED RIGHT THERE IN YOUR KITCHEN.

>> IT DOES FEEL LIKE THEY COME OUT OF NOWHERE, BUT THAT'S BECAUSE THE LARVA OF FRUIT FLIES, THE BABIES, ARE REALLY, REALLY SMALL.

SO THEY'RE SO SMALL THAT MOST FOLKS WON'T NOTICE THEM IF YOU'RE JUST KIND OF CASUALLY LOOKING FOR WHERE THEY COME FROM.

>> AND, YES, THAT DOES MEAN THAT IF YOU PICK UP A BANANA ON, SAY, A THURSDAY AND A SMALL COLONY EMERGES, THERE IS A CHANCE THAT YOU HAVE EATEN SOME OF THEIR SIBLINGS EARLIER IN THE WEEK.

>> OH, I GUARANTEE EVERYBODY HAS ALREADY EATEN QUITE A LOT OF INSECT EGGS AND INSECT PARTS IN THEIR LIVES.

THAT'S JUST PROTEIN.

IT'S FINE.

LIKE, IT'S NOT GOING TO HURT.

>> AND WHILE THEIR UNIQUE COMBINATION OF SIZE AND SPEED MAKES THEM A PARTICULARLY PESKY PEST IN THE KITCHEN, IT HAS ALSO HELPED THEM THRIVE IN ANOTHER LOCATION: THE RESEARCH LAB.

>> EVEN THOUGH THEY LOOK REALLY ALIEN AND DIFFERENT, FRUIT FLIES SHARE A LOT OF THE BASIC BIOCHEMISTRY, GENETICS, NEUROLOGY, AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS, WITH HUMANS.

AND SO THEY'VE BECOME LIKE THE LAB RAT OF SCIENCE, EXCEPT EVEN MORE SO THAN A LAB RAT.

>> WE CAN THANK THE DROSOPHILAS FOR A WHOLE BUNCH OF OUR RECENT BREAKTHROUGHS IN FIELDS LIKE MEDICINE, BIOCHEMISTRY, AND GENETICS.

IN FACT, NO FEWER THAN SIX NOBEL PRIZES HAVE BEEN AWARDED TO SCIENTISTS FOR BREAKTHROUGHS THAT THEY HAVE MADE RESEARCHING THE HUMBLE FRUIT FLY.

SO, IN CONCLUSION, THE FRUIT FLY, BOTHERSOME ON BANANAS BUT A BOOM FOR BIOCHEMISTRY.

>>> DON'T FORGET TO LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE.

AND PERHAPS, MOST IMPORTANTLY, LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU ARE CURIOUS ABOUT AND ALL OF THOSE QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN BUGGING YOU BECAUSE, HEY, I MIGHT JUST LOOK INTO IT FOR YOU.

I'M EDWARD B. HERWICK III.

STAY CURIOUS OUT THERE.

I'M ACTUALLY HUNGRY.

THIS IS REALLY GOOD.

>> THE "CURIOSITY DESK" IS SPONSORED BY EMERSON COLLEGE, INSPIRING CURIOSITY AND CREATIVE EXPRESSION IN ALL OF US.