♪ CRYSTAL: HI, EVERYBODY.

I AM CRYSTAL HAYNES.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," THE DIRE NEED FOR MORE SUPPORT MENTAL AND MEDICAL, FOR MOMS AND THEIR INFANTS.

TWO MATERNAL HEALTH ADVOCATES GENERALLY ON WHERE WE ARE FEELING, AND WHAT LAWMAKERS CAN DO TO HELP.

THEN A SATIRICAL INSIDE LOOK AT THE FBI'’S CONTROVERSIAL SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM THE TRY TO TAKE DOWN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

♪ MASSACHUSETTS IS CONSIDERED A HUB FOR WORLD-CLASS MEDICINE WITH SOME OF THE BEST HOSPITALS HERE IN BOSTON.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE STATE'’S MOTHERS AND INFANTS IN PARTICULAR, NOT EVERYONE HAS ACCESS AT THE SAME LEVEL OF THE GRADE OF PRETERM BIRTHS IN THE LATEST REPORT CARD FROM ADVOCACY GROUP THE MARCH OF DIMES.

ADVOCATES IN THE STATE GAVE IT A D GREAT, WITHIN 5% MORE PRE-TERM BIRTHS THAN ANY OTHER STATES.

THEY ARE URGING LAWMAKERS IN THE STATE TO ACT.

THE MOMS MATTER ACT, WOULD ADDRESS MATERNAL MENTAL HEALTH AND SUBSTANCE USE DISORDERS WITH RESPECT TO PREGNANT AND POSTPARTUM INDIVIDUALS, WITH A SPECIFIC FOCUS ON THOSE RACIAL GROUPS MOST SEVERELY IMPACTED.

IT IS ALSO FIVE REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE MARCH OF DIMES WERE AT THE STATE HOUSE TODAY, MEETING WITH LAWMAKERS AS PART OF THE ORGANIZATION "MARCH FOR CHANGE" TO DEMAND BETTER HEALTH CARE FOR MASSACHUSETTS'’ MOMS AND BABIES.

TWO OF THOSE ADVOCATES GENERALLY NOW.

CHLOE SCHWARTZ IS THE DIRECTOR OF MATERNAL INFANT AND HEALTH WITH MARCH OF DIMES.

JESSICA PAULINO IS A DOULA, MATERNAL HEALTH ADVOCATE, AND FOUNDER OF THE EMA PROJECT, AND ORGANIZATION DEDICATED TO HELPING BABIES AND FAMILIES NAVIGATE GRIEF IN NEONATAL LOSS.

WE HAVE TO MENTION, JESSICA LOST HER OWN SON, EDWARD, THREE YEARS AGO TODAY, JUST THREE WEEKS AFTER HE WAS BORN PREMATURELY AT 24 WEEKS.

I WANT TO THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR TIME.

GUEST: THANK YOU.

GUEST: THANK YOU.

CRYSTAL: LET'’S START WITH THE ACTION THAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING ON BEACON HILL TODAY, WHAT ARE THE INITIATIVES YOU ARE PERSONALLY LAWMAKERS TO ACT ON?

GUEST: ABSOLUTELY, AND WE ARE NOT THE ONLY STATE DOING THIS.

WE CALL IT "MARCH FOR CHANGE," WHEN WE BRING OUR DEDICATED VOLUNTEERS FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WE GO TO OUR STATE LAWMAKERS AND WE ASK THEM TO PASS IMPORTANT POLICY CHANGES.

EACH STATE IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON WHERE THEY ARE IN CERTAIN CATEGORIES, BUT FOR US LOCALLY, WE HAVE SIX PRIORITIES THIS SESSION.

A FEW OF THEM FALL UNDER THE MATERNAL MENTAL HEALTH AND POSTPARTUM CARE CATEGORY.

THE MOMS MATTER ACT, AS YOU PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED.

ALSO A BILL THAT WOULD INCORPORATE POSTPARTUM DEPRESSION SCREENINGS INTO PEDIATRICIAN VISITS, BECAUSE WE KNOW MOMS ARE GOING TO THOSE A LOT MORE THAN THEY ARE GOING TO THEIR OWN POSTPARTUM VISITS.

AS WELL AS A BILL THAT WOULD GUARANTEE PAID LEAVE FOR PREGNANCY LOSS.

THAT BILL IS REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE PREGNANCY LOSS WITHIN THAT BILL IS DEFINED AS NOT JUST A MISCARRIAGE OR STILLBIRTH, BUT ALSO A FAILED ADOPTION OR FAILED SURROGACY MATCH.

IT IS INCLUSIVE OF ALL THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF FAMILIES WE SEE IN MASSACHUSETTS AND BEYOND.

WE ARE ALSO ADVOCATING FOR CERTAIN VACCINE POLICY.

A LONG-STANDING PRIORITY FOR MARCH OF DIMES.

IT TIES BACK TO OUR FOUNDING 85 YEARS AGO.

AND DOULAS.

THEY ARE A HUGE RESOURCE WHEN IT COMES TO THE PREGNANCY AND POSTPARTUM JOURNEY, AND WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT MEDICAID AND OTHER INSURERS ARE COVERING THAT KIND OF SERVICE.

CRYSTAL: AND JESSICA, THIS IS A VERY SPECIAL DAY, I IMAGINE ALSO A BITTERSWEET DAY FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

TELL US A BIT ABOUT THAT ERA -- I KNOW YOU CALL EDWARD YOUR SUNSHINE.

GUEST: YES, MY SUNSHINE.

HE TRANSITIONED THREE YEARS AGO TODAY.

I FELT REALLY POWERFUL TO HONOR HIM IN THIS WAY AND TO CREATE A PROJECT AROUND HIS HONOR AND HIS LEGACY THAT HE IS IMPACTING FAMILIES BEYOND HIS BIRTH AND HIS DEATH.

BEING IN THE STATEHOUSE TODAY FEELS LIKE A FULL CIRCLE MOMENT.

I REMEMBER AS I WAS GOING THROUGH MY EXPERIENCE IN THE NICU, HIM HAVING LIVED FOR 22 DAYS, AND THEN HIS TRANSITION, HOW MUCH I THOUGHT ABOUT HOW TO HONOR HIS MEMORY.

I RECEIVED EXCEPTIONAL CARE AT YALE NEW HAVEN CHILDREN'’S HOSPITAL AND FELT VERY NURTURED THROUGH THAT PROCESS WHILE I WAS THERE.

I ALSO WAS EXPOSED TO THE MARCH OF DIMES AT THAT TIME.

I HAD HEARD OF THE ORGANIZATION BUT DIDN'’T HAVE ANY PERSONAL TIES TO IT, AND THEY DO A GREAT JOB OF HAVING NICU COORDINATORS COME TO THE FLOOR AND PROVIDE EDUCATION AND ADVOCACY.

ALL OF THOSE EXPERIENCES LED ME TO CREATE THIS PROJECT SPECIFICALLY TO SUPPORT THE ROOT FAMILIES, NOT JUST WITH INFANT AND PREGNANCY LOSS, BUT ALSO EMBRYO LOSS, WHICH I EXPERIENCED.

THE COMPLEXITY OF GRIEF WITHIN THAT, THE COMPLEXITY OF BEING A POSTPARTUM PERSON WITHOUT A BABY HOME, BUT IT WAS NOT NECESSARILY SEEN AS A POSTPARTUM MOM AT THAT TIME, THOSE WERE THE CHALLENGES THAT I WAS FACING.

SO IT HAS BECOME REALLY IMPORTANT TO ADVOCATE.

I AM ONE OF THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE SUPPORTING THE MOMS ACT.

I AM SO THRILLED TO HAVE BEEN AT THE STATEHOUSE TODAY ADVOCATING FOR THE BILLS, INCLUDING THE NEONATAL MENTAL HEALTH, AS WELL AS THE LEAVE, WHICH ADDRESSES CONSTELLATION OF FAMILIES.

WE ARE LIVING IN MODERN TIMES.

FAMILIES ARE NOT JUST MADE THROUGH BIRTH.

THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO BECOME A PARENT THAT ALL OF THOSE THINGS NEEDED TO BE ADDRESSED.

THERE ARE LAWS THAT CAN BE ASSOCIATED WITH ALL OF THAT.

CRYSTAL: YOU KNOW, WE SPOKE ABOUT THE STATISTICS FOR BLACK, LATINA, BROWN WOMEN, NATIVE AMERICAN RATES.

AND KNOW IT HAS GOTTEN UP WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MATERNAL MORTALITY AND INFANT MORTALITY.

HOW DO THESE ACTIONS ADDRESS THESE OUTCOMES?

WE KNOW THAT EQUIPMENT SPECIFICALLY, IN THIS STATISTIC HAS BEEN OUT THERE FOR YEARS -- SPECIFICALLY OUR DIET -- BLACK WOMEN SPECIFICALLY ARE DYING AT THREE TIMES THE RATE OF THEIR COUNTERPARTS.

GUEST: WE LOVE THE FACT THAT THERE ARE GRANTS THAT WILL BE PROVIDED TO ORGANIZATIONS TO HAVE A MORE INCLUSIVE WORKFORCE, RIGHT?

SO THAT BROWN AND BLACK PEOPLE IN GENERAL COULD HAVE ACCESS TO CARE FROM PROVIDERS THAT LOOK LIKE THEM, THAT HAVE A LIVED EXPERIENCE LIKE THEY HAVE AND CULTURAL EXPERIENCE.

IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO IDENTIFY WITH PEOPLE THAT MAY NO KNOW THE IMPACT OF THE HEALTH EQUITIES THAT WE CARRY EVERY DAY WITH US.

CRYSTAL: CHLOE, I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO SPEAK TO THAT TOO.

GUEST: I WOULD LIKE TO ADD TO JESSICA'’S ALREADY INSIGHTFUL KNOWLEDGE.

WE KNOW THAT MENTAL HEALTH IS A LEADING CAUSE OF MATERNAL DEATH NOT JUST IN MASSACHUSETTS, BUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THOSE DEATHS ARE PREVENTABLE.

THE ISSUE IS MAKING SURE THAT MOMS ARE BEING HEARD WHEN THEY ARE RAISING CONCERNS ABOUT HOW THEY FEEL THROUGHOUT THEIR PREGNANCY JOURNEY, AND THEN, MAKING SURE THEY CAN ACCESS THOSE RESOURCES.

THAT THEY KNOW WHERE TO FIND THE RESOURCES.

THEY KNOW WHAT RESOURCES ARE AVAILABLE TO THEM IN THEIR GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION.

THEIR INSURANCE STATUS.

MAKING THOSE AS WIDELY ACCESSIBLE AS POSSIBLE.

CRYSTAL: AS WE TALK ABOUT ESPECIALLY THE MENTAL HEALTH PEACE, WE HAD THIS TRAGIC SITUATION WITH THE CLANCY FAMILY AND THE CARE THAT WAS THERE.

WE KNOW THAT IS BEING ADJUDICATED IN THE COURTS.

YOU TALK ABOUT PREVENTABLE.

I THINK ABOUT CASES LIKE THAT WHERE PERHAPS ACCESS TO DIFFERENT MENTAL HEALTH CARE, DIFFERENT TRAININGS WOULD HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE.

GUEST: ABSOLUTELY.

I OF THIS AND CANNOT SPEAK TO THE CLANCY CASE SPECIFICALLY, I WISH THEM SO WELL, BUT IT IS AN ABSOLUTE SHAME THAT IT HAD TO COME TO THAT FOR THIS TO RECEIVE THE ATTENTION IT IS RECEIVING.

AND IT IS UNFORTUNATELY NOT A UNIQUE STORY, WE HAVE SEEN IT BEFORE.

AND IT IS PREVENTABLE.

THERE ARE SIGNS.

THERE ARE RESOURCES AVAILABLE TO PROVIDE THESE FAMILIES WITH THE HELP THAT THEY NEED, AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS OFTEN GO IGNORED OR DISREGARDED ENTIRELY.

CRYSTAL: I KNOW INFANT LOSS -- THERE WAS STUDIES THAT CAME OUT RECENTLY ABOUT THE MORTALITY RATES AROUND INFANTS.

TALK TO ME ABOUT HOW THAT CHANGED.

BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT MOMS HAVE BEEN DYING, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE RATE OF INFANT MORTALITY IS ALSO CHANGING IN THIS STATE.

GUEST: YEAH.

ABSOLUTELY.

THE LEADING CAUSE OF INFANT MORTALITY IN MASSACHUSETTS IS PRE-TERM BIRTH.

WHICH IS SOMETHING MARCH OF DIMES HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON FOR DECADES.

WE DON'’T NECESSARILY KNOW WHAT IS THE DRIVING BECAUSE OF THE RISE IN PRE-TERM BIRTH THAT WE HAVE SEEN THROUGHOUT THE YEARS AND THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

BUT WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN RISK FACTORS.

WE KNOW THAT THOSE RISK FACTORS DON'’T COME TO LIGHT IF MOMS ARE NOT GETTING ADEQUATE PRENATAL CARE.

THAT IS A HUGE ISSUE THAT WE SEE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, REPORTS OF ADEQUATE VERSUS INADEQUATE PRENATAL CARE ARE DRASTICALLY LOWER THAN WE WANT TO SEE.

MAKING SURE THAT ACCESS TO CARE IS A TOP PRIORITY, AND AVOIDING WHAT WE'’RE SEEING, WHICH IS AN INCREASE IN MATERNALLY -- -- MATERNITY CARE DESERTS, AREAS WITH LITTLE TO NO ABSTRACT OR CARE, WITH THAT THAT IS AN OB/GYN OR A MIDWIFE, OR ANY TYPE OF CARE AVAILABLE, THOSE MATERNITY CARE DESERTS ARE ON THE RISE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

CRYSTAL: AND JESSICA, AS YOU AND OTHER ADVOCATES FIGHT WITH THE MARCH OF DIMES TO MAKE SURE THAT MOMS AND BABIES ARE SAFE, I AM SURE THAT YOUR SON IS ON YOUR MIND TODAY.

AND YOUR ORGANIZATION DOES A VERY SPECIAL THING IN HELPING FAMILIES, PARENTS, MOMS, BIRTHING PEOPLE WITH DEALING WITH GRIEF AND LOSS.

I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO TALK TO FOLKS ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE AS YOU AND I HAVE SPOKEN BEFORE, THERE CAN BE A CODE OF SILENCE IN SOME CULTURAL GROUPS.

GUEST: IS WHY I DO WHAT I DO.

I EXPERIENCED IT EVEN FROM PEOPLE THAT I KNOW THAT LEFT ME BUT TRULY JUST WANTED ME TO STOP TALKING ABOUT MY SON, RIGHT?

SO IT HAS BECOME SUPER IMPORTANT FOR ME TO CREATE A SAFE SPACE FOR PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT THEY DON'’T GO THROUGH THIS ALONE.

THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT UNDERSTAND, THAT WANT TO HOLD SPACE FOR YOU AND WHAT YOU TO NAME YOUR CHILDREN, THAT ALLOW YOU TO NAME THAT LOSS, RIGHT?

AND TO COEXIST WITHIN THE LOVE AND THE GRIEF YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED.

I DO HIKES, COMMUNITY HIKES, AND HOLD SPACE INDIVIDUALLY WITH PEOPLE THAT HAVE LOST CHILDREN, SPECIFICALLY MOMS.

THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT REACH OUT TO ME.

I CAN'’T TELL YOU THE AMOUNT OF TIMES I HAVE SHARED MY PERSONAL STORY AND RECEIVED A PRIVATE MESSAGE ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT SAYS HEY, I AM SO GLAD YOU SHARED THIS.

I DON'’T FEEL COMFORTABLE, BUDDY HAVE HELPED ME BY BEING SO PUBLIC WITH YOUR GRIEF.

I WOULD SAY THAT HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST THING FOR ME THE LAST THREE YEARS THAT I HAVE SHARED VERY PUBLICLY, WHEN I AM WELL AND WHEN I AM NOT.

IN TODAY BEING SUCH AN IMPORTANT -- AND TODAY MARKS THE THREE YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF HIS PASSING, FEELING JUST SO EMPOWERED TO BE HERE TO COMMUNICATE THESE MESSAGES, TO TELL OUR LAWMAKERS, LISTEN, WE ARE DYING OUT HERE.

OUR BABIES ARE DYING.

IN THESE THINGS CAN BE PREVENTABLE.

I AM AN EDUCATED WOMAN WHO DOES NOT HAVE AN ISSUE SPEAKING OUT, AND I DID NOT FEEL HEARD IN MY MATERNITY CARE.

I LIVE IN THE MECCA HEALTH CARE AND EDUCATION.

IF IT IS HAPPENING TO ME, IT IS HAPPENING TO OTHER FAMILIES.

AND IT IS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO TYPE INTO IMMIGRANT FAMILIES.

I WILL BE STARTING SOME FREE GRIEF SUPPORT GROUPS IN THE JAMAICA PLAIN'’S AREA IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.

I HOPE EVERYONE FOLLOWS THE EMA PROJECT.

I WILL BE SHARING THAT INFORMATION.

.

THE GROUPS WILL BE BOTH IN ENGLISH AND SPANISH.

CRYSTAL: AND THIS QUESTION IS FOR BOTH OF YOU.

IF YOU ARE A MOM OR BIRTHING PERSON THAT IS ENTERING THIS SPACE, WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR THOSE FOLKS RIGHT NOW, AS YOU ALL FIGHT ON BEACON HILL AND AS THE FIGHT CONTINUES, WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR THE FOLKS AT HOME?

GUEST: HIRE A DOUL IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD ONE,A MEDICARE AND MEDICAID WILL COVER.

.

THERE ARE COMPANIES OUT HERE WHO, I DO COMMUNITY WORK THROUGH A COMPANY.

DOULAS ARE PROVIDED FREE OF COST TO THE PATIENTS.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE SOMEONE THAT IS SOLELY ON YOUR TEAM AND READY TO ADVOCATE FOR YOU OR AT LEAST EMPOWER YOU TO MAKE GOOD DECISIONS FOR BOTH YOURSELF AND YOUR BABY.

DOULAS ACTUALLY LOWER THE RISK OF A SOCIETY IN SECTION BY UP TO 30% -- RISK OF ASIS.

A CAESAREAN SECTION BY 30%.

IN REALITY THE HOSPITAL IS JUST TRYING TO MOVE YOU THROUGH YOUR SYSTEM, BUT THE BODY NEEDS WHAT IT NEEDS TO FEEL SAFE AND TO GIVE BIRTH.

CRYSTAL: CHLOE.

GUEST: I AGREE WITH THAT.

IT IS SUCH A COMMUNITY RESOURCE.

REMEMBER THAT IT TAKES A VILLAGE.

IT USED TO TAKE A VILLAGE.

BUT WE DON'’T LIVE IN THAT WORLD ANYMORE.

WE HAVE STARTED NETWORKS WITH CONTACT INTO.

I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO TAP INTO THEIR ENTIRE NETWORK, AND VISIT RESOURCES LIKE MARCHOFDINE.ORG, OR THE EMA PROJECT, IF YOU ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU NEED THAT COMMUNITY RESOURCE -- MARCHOFDIMES.ORG.

THERE ARE QUITE A FEW ORGANIZATIONS OUT THERE AND THEY ARE INCREDIBLE.

LEANING ON THOSE NETWORKS AND COMMUNITIES.

WE ARE HERE FOR YOU.

CRYSTAL: LADIES, I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

CHLOE SCHWARTZ, JESSICA PAULINO, THANK YOU FOR THE WORK THAT YOU ARE DOING, AND TALKING TO US ABOUT IT.

GUEST: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

GUEST: THANK YOU.

CRYSTAL: NEXT, YOU MAY NOT HAVE READ ABOUT IT IN YOUR HISTORY BOOKS, IT CERTAINLY WAS NOT COVERED IN MINE, BUT YOU CAN FIND THE TRUE STORY OF THE DECADES LONG FBI PROGRAM TO UNDERMINE THE FIGHT FOR CIVIL RIGHTS, ON DISPLAY IN THE LATEST PRODUCTION AT ARTS EMERSON.

"COINTELSHOW" TAKES A SATIRICAL LOOK AT COINTELPRO, SHORT FOUR INTELLIGENCE PROGRAM, THE FBI'’S COVERT AND ILLEGAL OPERATION AIMED AT DISCREDITING FIGURES LIKE MARTIN LUTHER KING JR., FRED HAMPTON, AND ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE BLACK PANTHER PARTY.

>> MY NAME IS SPECIAL AGENT CHRISTIAN WHITE.

YOU CAN CALL ME CHRIS.

I AM WITH THE PUBLIC-RELATIONS SUBDIVISION OF THE FBI.

CRYSTAL: IN COINTELSHOW, THE FICTIONAL AGENT WHITE MAKES THAT AUDIENCE -- TAKES THE AUDIENCE ON A TOUR OF THE PROGRAM'’S A DARK TACTICS.

I AM JOINED BY L.M.

BOGAD.

GUEST: THANK YOU SO CRYSTAL.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

CRYSTAL: TALK TO ME ABOUT THE CONCEPT FOR THIS SHOW, BECAUSE IT IS A TOPIC A LOT OF FOLKS DON'’T NECESSARILY KNOW ABOUT, THAT IT ALSO DOES SOMETHING VERY UNIQUE ON STAGE AND IN THE VIRTUAL SPACE AS WELL.

GUEST: YEAH.

IT IS BASED ON THE ACTUAL NONFICTION TEXTS, THE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE DECLASSIFIED BY THE FBI ABOUT THIS PROGRAM, PROGRAMS THAT WERE DESIGNED, IN THEIR OWN WORDS, TO DISRUPT THE ACTIVITIES OF SOCIAL MOVEMENT ORGANIZATIONS.

SO IT IS A SATIRE, THERE IS SOME GRIM HUMOR IN THE PIECE, BUT DOES HAVE HUMOR TO HELP US TO DEAL WITH THIS VERY GRIM HISTORY.

CRYSTAL: I IMAGINE THE IDEA IS BOTH TO EDUCATE AND ENTERTAIN, BUT IS IT EDUCATION FIRST AND THEN ENTERTAINMENT AS YOU GO, OR HOW IS THE DESIGN?

GUEST: THAT IS THE KEY QUESTION, THANK YOU FOR THAT.

IT'’S LIKE THE WAY I WAS TAUGHT, IF YOU ARE NOT ENTERTAINING FOLKS, YOU ARE THINKING.

IT'’S NOT GOING TO WORK.

SO IT IS ENTERTAINMENT FIRST.

THERE IS A LOT OF HUMOR THERE AND SURPRISES.

THE DOCUMENTS THEMSELVES ARE SURPRISING.

IN SOME WAYS AND OR UNINTENTIONALLY, THE FBI WROTE SOME COMEDY.

SOMETIMES WHAT THEY WERE DOING WAS SO UNFORTUNATE THAT YOU JUST HAVE TO LAUGH.

AND SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO TAKE YOUR SITUATION SERIOUSLY ENOUGH TO LAUGH AT IT.

THAT IS THE APPROACH WITH THIS SHOW, IT IS ALL BASED IN FACT, THAT IT TAKES YOU ON A JOURNEY.

THE SCRIPT IS DESIGNED TO TAKE YOU ON MY JOURNEY THROUGH THESE DOCUMENTS AND ALSO TO REFLECT ON, WHAT WOULD I HAVE DONE IF THESE TACTICS WERE USED ON ME?

AND HOW CAN WE RESIST THESE KINDS OF DIVIDE AND CONQUER TACTICS?

SO HOPEFULLY, TO JUST MAKE A POINT MORE AWARE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF THESE MISDEEDS.

CRYSTAL: TALK TO ME ABOUT THE RESEARCH PROCESS FOR A SHOW LIKE THIS, I IMAGINE IT IS INTENSIVE AND PROBABLY TOOK A WHILE?

GUEST: YEAH.

AS I WAS RESEARCHING COINTELPRO, IT WAS INTERESTING, A LOT OF DOCUMENTS HAD COME OUT IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER AND FRANKLY I HAD BEEN INVOLVED IN SOME CREATIVE NONVIOLENT, VERY PEACEFUL ACTIVIST GROUPS THAT HAD BEEN FIRED ON AND INFILTRATED IN SOME CASES, AND WE WERE, LIKE, WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT, AND THIS IS AFTER THE TIME OF ACTUAL COINTELPRO.

BUT THAT GOT ME INTERESTED IN THE SUBJECT MATTER, THEN AS I STARTED TO READ THESE DOCUMENTS FROM THE 60'’S AND 70'’S AND EVEN THE 1950'’S IN SOME CASES, I WAS, LIKE, THAT EXPLAINS THE PATTERN.

WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.

THE QUESTION OF WHO WATCHES THE WATCHMEN IS NEVER GOING TO GO AWAY AS PEOPLE IN A SOCIETY THAT ARE TRYING TO PRESERVE OUR DEMOCRACY, WE WILL ALWAYS HAVE TO ASK THOSE QUESTIONS AND DO OUR HOMEWORK IN THAT SENSE.

FOR MYSELF, IT WAS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, AND THEN ALSO READING UP ON THE DOCUMENTS AND TRYING TO FIND THE PATTERNS.

AND SOME OF THE PATTERNS I FOUND WERE ABSOLUTELY ABOUT DIVIDE AND CONQUER, MAKING PEOPLE SUSPECT EACH OTHER INSTEAD OF TRUST EACH OTHER, TO DISRUPT MOVEMENTS.

THEN I FOUND ONE DOCUMENT THAT WAS RELEASED IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT, WHEN I WAS LIKE, THEY HAD TO RELEASE THIS, BUT THEY HAD REDACTED OR BLACKED OUT EVERY SINGLE WORD.

AND THEN THEY RELEASED IT IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT.

I SAID, OK, I HAVE TO SHARE IT.

THAT IS RIDICULOUS.

RIDICULOUS IN OUR A WAY THAT TEACHES US SOMETHING.

AND FOR THOSE OF PEOPLE WHO COME TO THE SHOW, THAT COMPLETELY REDACTED OR CENSORED DOCUMENT IS ONE OF THE STARS OF THE SHOW.

CRYSTAL: I AM THOUGHTFUL ABOUT HOW YOU CHOSE THE FOLKS OR THE SUBJECTS IN THE SHOW.

WE KNOW DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING WAS SURVEILLED, I AM THINKING ABOUT MALCOLM X.

WE TALKED ABOUT FRED HAMPTON FROM THE BLACK PANTHER PARTY.

I KNOW ABOUT ACTORS AND ACTRESSES THAT WERE SURVEILLED, HOW DO YOU CHOOSE -- FROM THIS PLETHORA OF VERY INTERESTING AND HIGH-PROFILE FOLKS THAT WE KNOW WERE SURVEILLED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT?

GUEST: GREAT QUESTION.

THANKS, CRYSTAL.

IT'’S VERY HARD, ESPECIALLY FOR A PIECE THAT WILL NOT 17 HOURS.

I AM A BIG BELIEVER IN WHERE NOT TRYING TO DO WITH THE THEATER PLAY WHAT AN ESSAY WOULD DO, OR A 300-PAGE BOOK, RIGHT?

YOU HAVE TO PICK SOME FOLKS THAT GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF THE SCOPE OF THESE PROGRAMS, WITHOUT TRYING TO TELL EVERY STORY.

YES, DR. KING WAS ABSOLUTELY TARGETED BY J EDGAR HOOVER, AS WE NOW KNOW FROM SOME COMMERCIAL FILMS THAT HAVE COME OUT THAT SHOWED HOW HOOVER WAS OBSESSED WITH KING, AND NOT IN A GOOD WAY.

THAT WAS REALLY UNFORTUNATE.

WE DEFINITELY SPEND SOME TIME WITH DR. KING ON THIS.

AND THEN UNFORTUNATELY, FRED HAMPTON, THIS VERY YOUNG LEADER OF THE BLACK PANTHER PARTY IN CHICAGO WHO WAS KILLED.

THESE ARE IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

WE HAVE TO BE GROWN UPS AND FACE IT.

.

I THINK THOSE ARE SOME OF THE REASONS WHY I PICKED SOME EXAMPLES.

AND THEN I HOPE IT INSPIRES FOLKS, AFTER SEEING THE SHORT AND GRIMLY ENTERTAINING PLAY THAT DOES HAVE HUMOR IN IT, GO AND CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF.

IT'’S NOT HARD TO LEARN ABOUT IT ANYMORE, NOW YOU CAN GO ONLINE AND FIND OUT A LOT.

CRYSTAL: WE ACTUALLY HAVE A CLIP FROM THE SHOW I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY FOR FOLKS, IF WE COULD INSERT THAT HERE.

>> HERE IS WHEN WE WROTE AS IF FROM A UNION WORKER TO A UNION BOSS, TO GET THE TEAMSTERS AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, ANY GANGSTERS THEY MIGHT KNOW, UP IN ARMS AGAINST THE KINDEST PARTY OF AMERICA.

>> I'’M AFRAID THESE COMMIES NEW BUSINESS.

SO WATCH OUT.

>> THANKS FOR USING THE FREE COPY MACHINE, I CAN GET THE WORD OUT ABOUT THIS.

.

DON'’T LET THE COMMIES TAKE OVER.

CRYSTAL: TALK TO ME ABOUT THIS CLIP HAVING TO DO WITH THE TEAMSTERS AND THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF AMERICA, SUPPOSEDLY.

GUEST: WELL FIRST OF ALL I WANT TO GIVE A SHOUT OUT TO BRUCE, THE WONDERFUL ACTOR, AND MY DEAR FRIENDS AT THE THEATER COMPANY THAT HAVE DONE THIS, IN ARTS EMERSON FOR HOSTING AND PRODUCING THE SHOW.

I AM VERY THANKFUL.

THAT WAS A CAMPAIGN HOOVER APPROVED CALLED "OPERATION HOODWINK."

THEY WERE TRYING TO ENCOURAGE THROUGH ANONYMOUS LETTERS, TO ENCOURAGE MEMBERS OF COSA NOSTRA TO TAKE ACTION AGAINST MEMBERS OF THE TEAMSTERS, WHICH IS NOT WHAT OUR TAX MONEY SHOULD BE PAYING FOR.

TO GO AFTER MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY WHO WERE WORKING INSIDE THE TEAMSTERS, TO BE MORE SPECIFIC.

THE COMMUNIST PARTY, WE NOW KNOW, WAS NOT AS MUCH OF A THREAT AS THEY MADE IT OUT TO BE, AND WAS A VERY SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE, QUITE A LARGE NUMBER OF WHOM WERE FBI INFILTRATORS.

NEVERTHELESS, HOOVER WAS ENCOURAGING THROUGH THESE ANONYMOUS LETTERS -- IT IS ORIGINAL CREATIVE WRITING BY FBI AUTHORS.

[LAUGHTER] WHO MAYBE SHOULD HAVE TRIED TO WRITE THEIR OWN NOVELS OR SOMETHING OUTSIDE OF SECURITY WORK.

BUT THEY WERE WRITTEN AND THEN RECEIVED BY MEMBERS OF THE TEAMSTERS WHO WERE BELIEVED TO BE CONNECTED TO GANGSTERS, TO ENCOURAGE THEM TO GET VIOLENT WITH MEMBERS OF THIS COMMUNIST PARTY, THIS LITTLE, SMALL PARTY.

THIS WAS REALLY UNFORTUNATE AND IT IS NOT THE KIND OF ACTIVITY THAT I WOULD HOPE THE STATE WOULD BE SPONSORING WITH OUR TAX MONEY.

CRYSTAL: YOU KNOW, THIS SHOW IS A LIVE, VIRTUAL FORMAT.

HOW IS IT DIFFERENT IN TERMS OF STAGING, BUT ALSO, GIVING AUDIENCES THAT EXPERIENCE?

GUEST: I MEAN, WE ENCOURAGE FOLKS TO DISCUSS AND CONVERSE IN THE CHAT AND RESPOND TO WHAT IS HAPPENING.

OF COURSE THERE IS CONVERSATION AT AFTER THE SHOW, BUT EVEN BEFOREHAND, THERE IS AN INTERACTIVE SERIES OF CHAT ROOMS ON THE ZOOM WHERE YOU CAN MEET THE SPECIAL AGENT, YOU CAN TALK TO EACH OTHER.

YOU ARE ASKED TO SURVEIL EACH OTHER, PLEASE BE COMPLIANT AND SURVEIL OTHER MEMBERS OF THE AUDIENCE.

SO WE ARE HAVING FUN WITH IT AND WE ARE BEING TONGUE-IN-CHEEK, BUT WE ARE REFERRING TO ACTUAL PRACTICES WHERE PEOPLE WERE ENCOURAGED TO BE DIVIDED AGAINST EACH OTHER, UNFORTUNATELY.

SO THAT IS THE IDEA.

IN THE LIVE PERFORMANCE, WE DO SIMILAR TYPES OF ACTIVITIES TO HAVE A BIT OF FUN WITH IT.

BUT INTO THE SHOW, YOU MIGHT BE PROCESSED BY AN AGENT IN THE LOBBY BEFORE YOU CAN GET IN, AND THEY MIGHT ASK YOU SOME PERSONAL QUESTIONS YOU DON'’T WANT TO ANSWER BEFORE YOU CAN GET INTO THE THEATER.

THAT KIND OF THING WHERE YOU HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE BETWEEN CONVENIENCE OR BEING DELAYED.

EITHER I GIVE YOU SOME VIRTUAL INFORMATION, OR IT TAKES LONGER TO GET INTO THE THEATER.

I KNOW THAT THIS SOUNDS ANNOYING, THAT WE ARE TRYING TO HAVE FUN WITH AUDIENCE MEMBERS BEFORE THEY GO IN.

THAT IS A TYPE OF THING WE DO IN THE LIVE SHOW.

THE ZOOM SHOW, WE WANT TO GIVE A PLAYFUL EXPERIENCE THAT REFERS TO THE IDEA THAT WE LIVE IN A SURVEILLANCE SOCIETY AND WE SHOULD BE AWARE THAT.

IN THE TRADE-OFFS THAT COME FROM CONVENIENCE, VERSUS HAVING PRIVACY.

CRYSTAL: EDUCATION, ENTERTAINMENT, VIRTUAL OPTIONS, SEEMS LIKE THIS SHOW HAS IT ALL.

L.M.

BOGAD, I WANT TO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

GUEST: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I APPRECIATE IT.

CRYSTAL: CLIENTELE SHOW IS RUNNING FROM NOW THROUGH MARCH 12.

YOU CAN GET TICKETS FOR THE LIVE VIRTUAL PERFORMANCE ON THEIR WEBSITE.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "TALKING POLITICS."

THE PANEL WILL DIG INTO THE CONSEQUENCES IF THE SUPREME COURT TOSSES'’S OUT THE WHITE HOUSE'’S PLAN TO CANCEL STUDENT DEBT.

AND WE LOOK BACK AT FOUR DECADES IN PUBLIC LIFE.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

I AM CRYSTAL HAYNES.

GOOD NIGHT.

♪