♪ ♪ - Hello, I'm Nido Qubein.

Welcome to Side by Side.

My guest today is a leader in creative entrepreneurship and the founding executive director of the Center for Creative Economy.

Her name is Margaret Collins.

She's the driving force behind our region's creative economy.

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- Margaret, welcome to Side by Side.

I'm fascinated by the fact that some 12, 14, 15 years ago, you started a great organization called Center for Creative Economy.

It is located in Winston-Salem.

And what does the Center for Creative Economy do?

- Well, the Center for Creative Economy basically helps creative entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses.

We take those that have an idea, and we have three different programs that help them, whether they have -- we help them with their mindset, their idea validation, and then their actual launch.

So we help them in various stages.

- Is this in any specific sector or just across the board?

- We work with the creative economy.

And the way we define that, there are five major buckets that we look at: apparel, fashion, and design; content, creators, digital media; beauty -- - That's a new one, you know.

- Yeah.

- Some years ago, we didn't know what that meant.

- Right.

It's one of the biggest.

- Yes.

- Beauty, health, tech, and wellness; music and entertainment -- arts and entertainment; and then, of course, food and innovation.

- I see.

That's really interesting.

Why did you dwell on those five?

Why isn't music a part of that?

I mean, you were -- with ICM Artists, you managed the businesses and the lives, really, in many ways, of so many artists -- - Right.

-In the city of New York and beyond.

Why did you leave music out of that?

You didn't leave music out of that.

- I didn't.

I said arts and entertainment.

I meant, yeah, arts and entertainment.

- So, music is in that.

- Music, dance, theater, writing, any of those arts are included.

- What is the common thread among those five groupings?

- Well, the common thread is that they're all creative.

They have a passion to build a business from their talent.

- I see - Their creative skill.

But in most universities and in most training programs, they don't get entrepreneurial skills shown to them.

So, they come out with their wonderful degrees in various fields, but they don't know how to build a business.

So, we teach the business skill development coupled with mentorship to help them know the business that they're solving and to launch and grow it.

- So, how do you locate them?

How do they locate you?

How do you find those individuals?

And I'm sure you don't accept everyone.

They have to meet some kind of requirements.

- Right.

So, we have marketing that happens two months prior to each of the beginnings of our program.

And we use all the digital tools.

We use digital marketing.

We have a newsletter.

We have our website.

And we do info sessions.

We search.

We market.

We promote.

We talk about our programs to anyone that is interested.

And we find.

- So, why is it that people who are artistic are not inclined to be also business focused?

Or is that a fair statement?

- I think it's that they haven't been exposed to the discipline.

Most of the time we find, once they are given the tools and are shown the skills that are needed.

They lap it up.

They want to learn it.

They are very humble.

They are smart.

The creatives that we work with are incredibly smart.

They are disciplined.

And they really want to learn about business.

And they just take to it and figure it out and find a team and launch their businesses.

- So, it's not the right brain, left brain theory.

You're saying there is a balance there that one can.

They have the capacity to learn.

- They have the capacity.

- And therefore actualize it in their life.

- Absolutely.

- It may not be their primary leaning, but that's.

- Right.

- They can do that.

- Yes.

We all have different leanings.

I was a musician.

I was trained as a musician.

- Well, you're a trombone player in the -- - That's right.

-- In the Winston-Salem Community Band.

- I am.

And then I went on to become an arts manager, And, but I, as I learned, as I worked in these fields, I realized that there's so many creatives that have so many gifts, but there's a gap between what they do for a living and what they want to do and then how they can actually promote.

- And how to make a living out of it.

And then how to make a living.

- Right.

Exactly.

- So you were born in Shelby, North Carolina.

- I was.

- At what point in your life did you realize, I'm good at this.

I think I can do this.

Or did you even think about it?

Did you think about that as you were growing up?

- I loved music and I pursued music and wanted to, to do that.

But then I realized that I didn't want to just play in an orchestra or be, I didn't want to practice as much as musicians have to practice.

And I really liked people and I liked making things happen.

So I decided that arts administration was a good next step for me.

And as I studied that career, then I actually And I learned about entrepreneurship.

- You went to Wake Forest undergrad.

- I did.

- American University grad.

What did you major in?

- I majored in music undergrad.

And then at American University I majored in performing arts, arts management.

- I see.

And that led you to ICM?

- Well, by way of Atlanta where I managed, I was in marketing and PR for the Alliance Theater.

So I worked in theater.

And I met my husband who is an actor and a director.

And then we moved together to New York.

And at that point, that's when I switched to be an agent.

And I started managing artists professionally.

And these were for-profit businesses.

I worked in three different agencies in New York.

- What does it mean to manage an artist?

- Well, it's listening to what their goals are, what do they want to achieve, and trying to understand how to best position them for success, understanding their repertoire.

What are they offering to the community, to the world?

Helping them get recording contracts, helping them get bookings, helping them get publicity, just helping their whole career, just developing all of that.

- Is it fair to say that so many artists and perhaps athletes and people of that ilk do well in life financially, but somehow don't know how to manage their finances and you hear all these stories about these fabulous people with great talents and all kinds of disciplines end up in, if not in poverty, certainly in remedial positions financially.

Why do you think that is?

Obviously, they're not partaking of the Center for a Creative Economy.

Right?

- Right.

That's what we're trying to avoid.

Yes.

We don't want, we do not want to have the adage of the starving artist.

We want that displaced from the lexicon.

Artists don't have to starve, they need to just understand how to build a team how to have the resources, how to look for the right resources and then move on and finally be be successful.

- You know Margaret, I love music too, and I certainly won't have the knowledge or the depth of appreciation you would have for music, But I love all kinds of music and appreciate it.

I like to experience it.

There's a group in America called the Three Waiters, waiters as in servers in a restaurant, and they're phenomenal singers.

I think there's more than one unit, but there must be seven or eight of them, where these individuals with great operatic capacity travel around and they do some humor and some performance, sort of an act at a dinner thing.

And I've often wondered, you know, what do these people do in real life?

They do this obviously to make a little money on the side.

And that's my impression of a lot of artists, is that few of them have been able to take the content of their knowledge and experience and put it in a context whereby it becomes a business, a thriving, profitable, meaningful, revenue-generating business.

- That is what you're trying to do in part, right?

Sense of belief and then how you actualize that to have a profitable business, albeit the Center for a Creative Economy is a 501 C3.

It's a non-profit organization.

- Correct.

We absolutely, we take the creatives and listen to their idea, and then we help them validate that idea.

What is your idea and what we teach them is what problem are you solving?

- You say validate, not valuate.

- Validate.

- Yeah, what is the difference in your mind?

- Validate means, is there a market for that idea?

- Oh, I see.

- Will people buy it?

At what price?

And to whom are you going to sell it?

- And what if you conclude, I can't validate this individual?

- Well, that's what they do in our programs.

And if they don't, then that's good news.

Then you shouldn't start that business.

- But how do you say to them that, you know what?

- You have a higher opinion of yourself than you deserve.

- Well, the way we do it is with love and with a lot of respect for their idea, and ask them enough questions and give them enough mentorship that they then can make that decision themselves.

We have over 40 plus mentors that help.

They are the secret sauce for our community, for our programs.

They know how to help early stage companies.

And what we do is we are kind of at the top of the funnel.

We get them when they're really just starting out.

They could be just learning, wanting to ha ve the mindset, just want to start a business.

Or they could be in the validation and customer discovery phase, or they could be ready to launch.

And then once they get launched, we introduce them to the entrepreneurial community in Winston-Salem and the triad and beyond.

And that really helps them because there are other programs and other steps that they can take.

- Mm-hmm.

And I think we're very fortunate to be in North Carolina where entrepreneurial resources abound and in the triad, which has some really wonderful programs.

- So at ICM, of course, you're also placing them in booking, so to speak, in engagements for which they received an honorarium or a fee.

Are you doing that now also with the people you work with in the center?

- No, basically what we do now is we get them.

We have three different programs.

They last for either six weeks or 10 weeks.

We introduce them to all the resources in our community, and then we graduate them into the world.

And then in all of our programs, we do offer grants.

So there are incentive grants that they can get if they go through and are successful.

And then we then monitor the ones that win the funding, and we help them, continue to help them through the years with mentorship and networking and connections.

- How do you fund the grants?

- We raise the money through, as I said, the city of Winston-Salem funds us, Forsyth County, wonderful corporations in the community and private foundations and individuals.

- And do the artists, quote unquote, pay a fee?

- Yes.

In our programs, we do charge a fee.

We believe it's important for the entrepreneurs to have some skin in the game.

But because of our funding, we do get scholarships.

- I see.

- So they have scholarships.

- Mm-hmm.

- And both kinetic and velocity, we charge a fee.

The Pathways program, which is our mindset program, is free to city of Winston-Salem residents, and that's funded by the city of Winston-Salem.

- Mm-hmm.

Can you think of a person who went through this program and achieved success?

And if so, tell us that story.

- We have so many.

We have so many.

But I'll give you an example of... - One that's just very near and dear to my heart.

Her name is Jenny Earl.

She's from Winston-Salem.

She makes bandanas and scarves and trophies.

When she first came into the program, she was doing five different things.

She was a designer.

She was an artist.

She was... And we said, "Focus, focus, focus.

Make sure you do one thing really, really well."

- Mm-hmm.

- And she decided to devote herself to the making and marketing and selling of bandanas.

And on each one that she hand-designs, she has... inspires an inscription of empathy or inspiration or something that when you wear that bandana, you carry that inspirational quote, and it... - There's a market for bandanas?

- She's made the market for bandanas.

- Really?

- Yes.

She's now in every state in the country and many foreign countries, and she has gotten investors to now invest in her, and she's just done a... - ...a co-branding with a dance... with a dance-co.

They sell boots and all kinds of interesting fabrics and clothing.

So she's now co-branding with other brands, and she's been on Martha Stewart Living, and she's just had lots of different opportunities.

- Mm-hmm.

Any of those quote-unquote clients or students of yours or members, what do you call them?

- We call them participants.

- Participants while they're in the program, and then alumni once they're out.

Any of them been on Shark Tank, for example?

- Not yet.

No.

No one's been on Shark Tank.

- Yeah.

- I mean, the bandana lady could probably be on Shark Tank.

- We have our own little Shark Tank at the end of Velocity.

It's a 10-week program, and we... it builds to where they go to what we call Demo Day.

- Mm-hmm.

- And they have a table where they show their work live, and then they do a pitch.

- Mm-hmm.

- And then we have the mentors and investors come and judge them, and then they get voted, get graded, and then we have the prizes.

- Mm-hmm.

- So we have $20,000 in grants that are awarded each year during Velocity.

- Yes.

That's awesome.

You referred to the term Velocity.

- Mm-hmm.

- How is that different than the Center for Creative Economy?

- Velocity is our signature program.

So the Center for the Creative Economy is the brand, that's the organization, that's the 501 3C nonprofit that runs all the programs, and we have three different programs: Velocity, Kinetic, and Pathways.

- Velocity.

- Kinetic.

- Kinetics.

- Kinetic based... it's called the Kinetic Boot Camp.

- As in kinesiology?

- Yes, kinetic.

Moving fast.

- Yes.

Yes.

- And then Pathways.

- Pathways.

- Right.

- What is Pathways?

- Pathways is our program that helps with mindset training.

You may not know what you want to do, but you think you want to be an entrepreneur, but you need more development.

You need to be... you need to understand what skills you have that could be used to solve a problem in the world.

- Like a values clarification or... - Right.

Exactly.

Everyone has skills that they can use to solve a problem, and we teach them that you have to... in order to have a business, you need to be solving a problem.

You don't need to just... you can come up with ideas and do them, but they're hobbies.

Unless you're solving a problem that a customer will buy, and validate that idea, then you don't really have a business.

- I see.

So, well, Margaret, this is all very fascinating and meaningful because it's serving a population that needs that mentorship, that modeling, that guidance.

You're certainly a practitioner.

I mean, you've... you've done it, right?

You're not coming at this from an academic perspective.

You're coming at it from a, I've done it, I've seen it.

Certainly with ICM, you've seen a lot of people, you've learned.

But once the time you were in a different world altogether.

You were in the... in the economic development world.

- Mm-hmm.

With the Piedmont Triad Partnership.

- Yes.

- Yes.

That's when we first met.

- Yes.

- I was the director of creative economy for the Piedmont Triad Partnership, and we actually launched different programs there.

And that's when I got to meet everyone, a lot of major players here in the triad that were doing creative businesses.

And as a result, that's where we incubated the ideas for Center for Creative Economy, and now we were able to then launch the... the organization out of that program.

- Which is now 15 years old.

- Yes.

- And it's a proven organization.

- Yes.

- You have survived and thrived.

How big is the creative economy in North Carolina?

- Well, that's a... - Is there some way to quantify that or substantiate that?

- Well, it's a... it's a moving target.

It grows, it ebbs and flows.

But... - And I don't know that exact number, but I can give you a number that's a really interesting one.

Entrepreneurship in general is growing really fast in our state.

- And how do you define that?

I mean... - Entrepreneurship.

- There's entrepreneurial thinking.

You could be a doctor and be an entrepreneur, too.

- Well, the Secretary of State defines it as those who are... have started businesses that are at least a year old.

- Oh, I see.

- And been in business at least one year.

- So, since 2019, entrepreneurship has grown over 70%.

- And that means 171,000 new businesses have been started... - Really?

- ...in North Carolina alone.

- Really?

- Yes.

- And it's a... - They're not artistic necessarily.

They're not all creative.

- No.

Yes.

Right.

Right.

- And they're all creative in some form, but they're not in the sense you define creativity.

- Right.

Right.

And we work with all of our ecosystem partners because we have our unique niche of creative economy.

But once they come through our programs and they get the basics, they can go into any other program, too.

So, we are very excited about the growth in entrepreneurial support that is happening in the Triad and in Winston-Salem.

Our greater Winston-Salem Inc., the former chamber, has now taken on entrepreneurship as a goal to launch and grow new businesses.

And the state of North Carolina is really backing that, too.

And we have a wonderful support in NC IDEA, which is a... private foundation in our state whose goal is to build and grow many different entrepreneurs and use entrepreneurship as the backbone for the state's economic development.

And it's truly a groundswell of support that's happening in North Carolina.

And we are very fortunate.

And I just encourage those that really want to start a business to come to the Triad, come to Winston-Salem.

We know how... we know where to... how to help you get started on growing a business.

- Well, the Tar Heel State is certainly known to attract people from all over the country who have both creativity and a sense for innovation.

And, you know, one of the things that sometimes we forget is that this creative economy creates economic impact in the actual location where it resides.

A simple example would be an artist, a musician, let's say, might be performing somewhere.

That's a concert.

That creates people who come to the concert.

They spend money with food and hotels and all the rest.

And Winston-Salem in particular is the home for the University of North Carolina School for the Arts, recognized nationally as a wonderful location for the creative arts.

Do you have a relationship with them?

- We do.

I do.

I was on their board of visitors for a number of years.

And then once I started the Center for Creative Economy, we worked very closely with the Keenan Institute for the Arts in their effort to start an entrepreneurial program.

And CCE was their partner in developing that entrepreneurial program.

And then as a result of that, we then started our own programs beyond that.

So, yes, we work... we work closely with the School of the Arts.

And one of their professors is a mentor.

He is the head of the... one of the design and production teams.

He's the head of the design and production programs.

And he's a mentor in our programs.

- What are the two or three attributes or behavioral characteristics that you would look at in a person and say, "That person has the fundamental, the foundational strengths to be an entrepreneur?"

I acknowledge that everybody can have entrepreneurial leanings, to your point, once they're exposed to it, they become more aware of it, therefore they're more likely to engage in it.

But certainly there's some... some behavioral patterns that indicate this person really has that... they have it in their gut to go out there and do something.

What are some of those?

- Well, what I like to identify in someone is persistence.

Do they have the persistence to follow through on their ideas?

- Stick-to-itiveness.

- Yes.

Will they stick to it?

And curiosity.

Will they... can they explore?

Do they understand that they have to do a lot of research?

They've got to not really think that their idea is so perfect, but keep listening to those customers and hear what they say and then pivot because you always want to remain curious and understand what's out there because you need to ebb and flow and adjust based on the market.

And empathy with your customer and your environment.

You just always want to make sure that you're kind of in tune with things if you want to be successful.

- So you actually did a survey about what is it that makes some of these people really great entrepreneurs.

One of them is the trait of coachability.

They're very coachable.

School is never out for the pro, just what you said, that they can be agile and flexible and yet resilient, and have grit and all that.

The second one was emotional quotient.

In other words, do you have a capacity to build bridges of understanding with other people?

Because it's difficult to be persuasive, to sell an idea, to build a relationship if you don't possess that.

And at the bottom of all that, that list of qualities, is the technical skills.

In other words, it's a given you must be good at what you do, but that's not really why you in the end succeed.

And especially in the creative arts, you hear about a lot of people who are fantastic at their talent, but fail nevertheless in a competitive marketplace.

Do you agree with my assessment there?

- Well, yes, and so I agree.

I agree with all those attributes that you define.

They are all incredibly important.

And so that's why we want to help those creatives to understand that the technical skills are great, but that's not going to do it all by itself.

-You need the whole package.

-You need the whole package.

- You need to be holistic.

- And the worst thing you can do is try to do it all yourself.

You need to find a team.

You need to find people to help you.

- You all need mentors, that's for sure.

- And you need a mentor.

- Margaret, what you're doing is fascinating and useful and impactful, and I thank you for being with me on Side by Side.

- Thank you.

It was a pleasure.

I enjoyed it very much.

♪♪ - Funding for Side by Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by - Coca-Cola Consolidated makes and serves over 300 of the world's best brands and flavors locally from 13 facilities and 4,500 hardworking teammates.

We are Coca-Cola Consolidated, your local bottler.

- The Budd Group has been serving the Southeast for over 60 years.

Specializing in janitorial, landscape, and facility solutions, our trusted staff delivers exceptional customer satisfaction, comprehensive facility support with the Budd Group.

- Truist, we're here to help people, communities, and businesses thrive in North Carolina and beyond.

The commitment of our teammates makes the difference every day.