[heroic upbeat music] [heroic upbeat music continues] [heroic upbeat music continues] - Hello and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is writer/artist, Maria Scrivan.

Maria, welcome to "Comic Culture."

- Thank you for having me here, - Maria, we're going to talk a little bit about a series of books that you've done based on the character of Nat.

The latest one is called "Nat A Chance."

So I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about the character of Nat and the book series that you've been doing.

- Nat is based on my childhood self, but as a character, she took on a life of her own, which has been really interesting to watch and experience.

And Nat just kinda can't get out of her own way.

She's a lot like Charlie Brown, except she's always pulling the football from beneath herself.

So it's a lot of middle grade issues that I sort of went back and wrote vignettes of things that had happened to me, you know, friend issues, not fitting in, not feeling like I was enough was really the whole crux of the series.

And it was really fun to explore these old feelings now through the lens of humor.

So the books are filled with jokes and puns and big feelings all at once.

- We tend to think of comics as light fair, and there's a lot to be said about comics as just a great way to tell a story, to connect to an audience.

And I know that for a lot of people, reading about stuff in their childhood that relates to what they're going through now is very impactful.

I mean, there's a scene in here that I recalled, you know, being in gym class in ninth grade when we had to take swimming and there's a, you know, a scene here about changing for gym class.

And I think we could all sort of relate to that and I'm sure somebody reading it in the middle grades would relate to that.

So as you kind of tap into that, how do you make sure that it still feels authentic and not too much of this, "Well, I'm a grownup now, and let me tell you."

- Yeah, you know, I'd like to say that I got past all these thoughts and feelings, and especially in the fourth book, it's "Nat For Nothing," is all about self-doubt.

And I'd like to say that at this age, I've gotten through all these things, but I think some of these feelings still linger and especially self-doubt.

And in the fourth book, it was kind of perfect 'cause I was faced with so much self-doubt writing it.

So it was kind of a perfect synchronicity of two things happening.

I think these feelings are evergreen, like I said, the idea of not fitting in, changing in a locker room.

And it seems like the only person, the only people in the world who have total confidence in the locker room are the older ladies at the Y. I don't know what it is.

It seems like after a certain age, they're like, "Whatever."

But I think those feelings are hard, especially at that age because it's such a raw, delicate time.

And again, we're trying to fit in or, you know, not stand out and all that.

So I kind of tapped into old feelings, but then also new feelings.

So this book is about Nat not being an athlete, falling on her face over and over again.

Then she sort of gets roped into doing a triathlon with her best friend, gets pushed way out of her comfort zone, and challenges this belief she has.

So the real theme of this story is the stories we tell ourselves over and over again about who we are or what we're capable of and what happens when we challenge those false beliefs.

And that was a really fun investigation.

And also really, I look at all these books as a letter to myself to remind myself of things.

So in a way, it's youthful thoughts, but they're also somewhat current thoughts of things that I'm also working through.

- It is interesting when you think about the fact that, you know, we all have these feelings and we don't think anybody else does.

- Yes.

- And I think it's reassuring when we can come across an inviting book that makes us feel like, you know, we're not judging you, we're just telling you that we all go through this.

I think there was somebody once who pointed out, when you show up wearing something that you think looks bad, nobody's paying attention to you.

It's really, it's hard to get past that.

So in writing the Nat books, it seems like you're kind of taking that approach.

So when you're coming up with this idea, what makes you target the middle grades?

- Well, the books are actually for ages eight to 12.

So it's more like fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh.

It can go a little higher, but it's also gone lower.

So seven year olds have been reading the book as well.

So I think it's a little bit more targeted in that 10, 11, 12 age, which is such a big development time, and it's really like this balance between being a very young kid and then sort of this transition toward, you know, high school and more of like adulthood type thing.

And I really think that that idea that the more personal, the more universal, that beautiful quote, is really true because whenever I share things both in my books and my comic, I'm so astounded that people are like, "Oh yeah, me too."

I'm sure that I'm the only person in the world that has this feeling.

And people say, "Oh yeah, me too."

And I think kids, especially at that age, feel so alone in their feelings.

They just feel like they are the only person who's possibly going through this.

You know, in the first book, Nat's best friend, they're best friends from second to sixth grade, she doesn't wanna be her friend.

So kids are like, "I have to be the only person who this happened to."

And then when they find out that it didn't, they feel a lot less alone in their feelings.

And I think Nat, in her character just makes it, just, there's more simplicity in connecting.

And what I love about graphic novels in general is the depth to every page 'cause you get to look in Nat's eyes, you get to see her expression, and you get to see the expression of everybody else in the scene.

So there's so many subtle layers to investigate and, you know, what they're wearing, what the colors are, all the mood.

I just absolutely love the medium of graphic novels 'cause it gives me so much flexibility in storytelling.

- It's funny because I read somewhere on social media, I belong to a lot of groups about comics.

And there was somebody pointing out, you know, there are restrictions that maybe some teacher or some librarian put on purchasing a book at a book fair.

"Oh, for every book, like 'Nat A Chance' or 'Captain Underpants' you buy, you have to buy three or four real books because these are dessert books."

And I find that on the surface to be just really insulting because there's nothing in a book like this that isn't as deep as something you would read, going back to my childhood, like a Judy Bloom novel.

As you are sort of leaning into the acceptance of the graphic novel and into this audience of middle school or middle age students, how do you sort of maybe think about the criticisms of the medium being, you know, "This is too childish," but also, this is the perfect way to reach somebody of that age.

- That, I hear that sometimes too and it astounds me, and I think it's very misguided.

And I think it's coming from a place of someone who doesn't fully understand the power of the medium.

And I have to say, one of the biggest pieces of feedback, well a few, one is that my book was the first book a kid read cover to cover.

And it's a 235 page book and now they feel successful.

And I really do not believe just because a kid reads a graphic novel, that they're never going to read a prose book in their life.

I think it's a gateway to read more.

And I think if a kid is reading, and if you could pull a kid away from a phone for a minute, great, even myself, away from a phone for a minute, I think it's amazing.

So I think anyone who says that, that it's like junk food, just doesn't understand it yet.

They don't understand the depth of it.

- And I think a lot of it too is, they may not have sat down and read it.

- Yes, that's a good point.

- I started reading this book, and obviously I'm older than the target audience, but I could really relate to the issues that were being covered in it.

And I also found it really engrossing and just an enjoyable read.

And I got things out of it on multiple levels, not just the character work, but in your approach to storytelling on the page.

So I wonder what we can do as, in my case, I guess, a pundit, and in your case as a creator, to keep working with librarians and with educators to get them to understand that, you know, these are great ways for students to learn how to read, especially in an era where they're saying reading scores just keep going down.

- I know.

Yeah, I think it's the more exposure that people have to graphic novels, the more they understand how many layers of depth and how many tools we have in storytelling through the visual medium.

And also, I think at this time of our lives, we are such a visual society.

I mean, we are all engrossed in our phones.

We have Reels.

It's almost impossible to tell a story without grabbing your phone and showing a picture to someone.

You know, we're constantly taking photos of everything, from our lunch to our feet on vacation.

So I think as being such a visual society, it perfectly lines up with kind of what we're used to and how we respond.

And as growing up, I was a very visual learner and visual, visual learner and visual creator long before the phone came along.

So some people learn better that way.

So those kids who learn better, this is a dream to them, and now reading isn't so challenging anymore.

And then it becomes fun, and like I said, I think it's a gateway to read other things.

So it's a confidence.

And I also have heard over and over again how many, I cover a lot of topics like moving through doubt and fear, self-love, self-worth is a big one, especially with the first book, and so many parents have told me how the books help their kids move through anxiety.

And that means the world to me because there's a lot of anxiety right now with kids and adults.

And to feel like they have a safe place, to see their feelings reflected back to them.

And then, like I said earlier, literally reflected, they get to look at Nat's face.

And I think that creates a deeper connection 'cause they have a connection now with this character and if they can see themselves on the page, it helps 'em process a lot of big emotions.

- It's a balancing act between being a writer and being an artist and knowing what to say and what to show.

So how did your background sort of lead you to being somebody who could put their idea on the page, effectively telling that story, and knowing exactly the right phrase or word to put on the page to really push the narrative, but also connect with that reader?

- Well, I wanted to be a cartoonist my entire life.

It's all I ever wanted to do.

And I was always writing and drawing comics.

So anytime a teacher had a creative assignment, you can make a diorama or, you know, make a haiku, I was always making a comic.

So I always was doing this.

And even when I wrote notes to friends, I would turn myself into a cartoon character and write kind of to them in the bubbles.

And then I took a little bit of a winding path, but eventually had a syndicated comic for a decade.

That really helped me figure out an economy of images and words together.

And having the daily deadline for 10 years was amazing as far as constantly looking for things through the lens of humor, constantly writing and drawing, and that really helped me refine how I communicate.

For me, I do best having both.

And even when I sketch out the books, I rough out the entire book and I by hand draw in all of the dialogue, so that first draft is writing and drawing.

On one book, that fourth book that I mentioned before, that was a complete disaster for me of having to rewrite it over and over, I tried to write a script and it doesn't work.

Like I need to show and tell.

I need to have the images so that you can see the expressions, you can see the body language.

So for me, I end up starting with both and then go through a refinement process in each draft.

- It's gotta be, again, sort of a challenge to tackle something long form, because if you're doing 10 years of, I'm guessing three panels- - Yeah.

One panel.

- One panel.

okay.

- Single panel.

- Which is even tougher.

- Yeah.

- I mean, you think about the great one panel strips, whether it's "The Family Circus" or the sublime "Heathcliff," you know, it's really tough to put a whole lot of detail in there and get your story across.

So as you are sort of, I guess, pushing yourself to cover multiple panels on a page with this overarching narrative that's going to go on maybe 200 pages, how do you sort of, you've got the discipline, you've got the determination, but you know, how do you keep the stamina up to make sure that you're not giving it away too soon?

- It's funny because when I was first going from the panel to the sequential art, I spoke to a dear friend of mine and I was like, "I work in single panel, this is a whole new thing."

And she's like, "Yeah, but you tell an entire story with one panel, now you just have room to spread out."

So I thought of it that way, and I start every book with a thought of what I wanna do, and then I create an outline.

And I am, I like a five, kind of five plot points, beginning, inciting incident, middle, turning point, and resolution.

And with that, I draw up a two page outline.

And for me, that's my roadmap.

So I know a little bit, I have an idea of pacing, when things have to happen.

I know, having done six books now, where these things fall in the page count of the story.

But it's very much like having a roadmap for a road trip.

I know where I'm going, but I don't know what I'm gonna see along the way.

I don't know what detours I'm going to take.

And it's amazing how much the book evolves from the outline.

So the outline, it's kind of like, "Okay, this is just a very loose framework."

And the exciting part for me is seeing what develops along the way, how the story changes and gets adjusted.

But I think having that framework helps me with exactly what you're asking, just how to pace it, where things need to fall.

And as I write that out, sometimes I have the beginning, sometimes I have the end of the book.

So it's kind of fun to put those puzzle pieces together to see what all the parts of the story are.

- It's really interesting too when you talk about doing an outline and knowing, you know, how many pages roughly each act should be in your books, but also there's that open interpretation, like it becomes spontaneous at a point, where maybe you're going to see something from a different side, "Oh, this was my original," and just kind of go off on that roadmap, off the road, rather.

- Yeah.

- Take that scenic bypass instead of the highway.

So as you're sort of creating and finding these little nuances that you didn't see the first time, is this something that requires you to maybe rewrite a large section of the book?

Or is it something that, well, now this other section makes so much more sense because I took this little detour.

- Both of those things have happened and will happen.

There's been whole sections that had to be rewritten or I will figure out that it reflects on something earlier in the story in a way that I didn't realize, or sometimes I didn't notice, I subconsciously put sort of a seed for something that was happening later in the story, earlier in the story.

And I think once that first draft is down, then I sort of get to reevaluate and say, "Where do these things line up?

Is there continuity through all the different themes, all the arcs of all the different characters?"

So yeah, it's fun to watch.

I love that part of the writing process.

It's really fun to watch it develop.

- A lot of times we like to think that we're going to just be that virtuoso.

We're gonna get up there and play the piano perfectly the whole time without thinking that we have to maybe put some notes on the page and practice a few times.

So again, having that rough idea, that blueprint, and then creating off of it is, I think, so important to actually completing something because much like reading the book is the, you know, I can complete this book because I enjoy it.

Having that roadmap makes it easier for you to complete that book and get that accomplishment.

Now, one of the accomplishments, what a terrible segue, but one of the accomplishments that you've done is that you are working with Scholastic.

So how did this relationship sort of come about?

- I had a book agent and I had the idea for Nat, and she pitched it, and thankfully Scholastic picked it up.

And what was so funny is, I had one book, and I ended up getting a two book deal.

And I was like, "Uh oh.

I only have one book."

So like everything else, I said, "I'll figure it out."

And I quickly came up with a second book idea, and then once I got an understanding of who Nat was and the other characters in the world, now I feel like the ideas are endless.

I could, you know, keep going.

And the idea of the title, you know, I knew the theme was her feeling like she was not enough, I knew her name was Natalie, and there's this magic in sketchbooks when you kind of put two seemingly random words next to each other, those "not enough" and "Natalie" were sitting there and I'm staring at it and all of a sudden I was like, "Oh, Nat Enough."

And there's this great website called Rhyme Zone that has rhymes and phrases and word play and all this stuff.

There are so many phrases with the word "not," it's kind of endless.

So it worked out to be a perfect pun that can just keep going.

And there's been some that, you know, will probably never see the light of day, but there's a lot of fun opportunities there.

- You're talking about a website that you use to help you with puns.

I'm imagining as a writer you have to do a lot of research.

You know, you've got your own experiences that you can lean into, but maybe you wanna make sure that you're phrasing it correctly for an audience that's going to read it.

So are you doing a lot of this research and how do you do it?

Is it simply by going and doing a Google search, or is it something where maybe you're going to the old fashioned library because there's that book that you remember?

- I love the idea of going to the old fashioned library, and I wish I could say that, but the truth is, it's Google and I do a ton of research both in the story, and it can be anything from facts, like researching triathlon, even though I've done triathlons, I wanted to go back and sort of get the proper terms, or researching images from, you know, what a scene might look like.

And then when I'm doing the final drawings, researching reference photos.

So there's a ton of research in the process, and I end up learning so much in that process.

Oh, and in "All is Nat Lost," the fifth book in the series, Nat goes on a class trip to Philadelphia.

So I went to Philadelphia to research on a day where there was 100 class trips happening, which was fantastic.

So they're all over the place.

So I put myself on one.

I just got on the end of the line and followed a group into, I think it was Congress Hall, and I ended up chatting with a teacher and telling her what I'm doing, and she tells me they're doing a scavenger hunt.

We have all these conversations, and so much of our conversation ended up in the book.

So if I can actually experience something, that's my favorite kind of research of actually on the scene, kind of being immersed in the environment that I'm writing about, is just such an authentic experience.

- And, you know, it's the second time that you've had a synchronicity like this.

- I have a lot of them actually.

Yeah.

- When something like that happens and it just naturally occurs, it's sort of the universe winking and saying, "Yeah, you're going in the right direction."

- I agree.

- So let's talk a little bit about the art style that you're using.

It is a very inviting art style.

And I don't mean this in the worst way, I mean this in the best way.

When I look at this, I can say, "Oh, this is simple, but I really get it."

But I can also look at it as a kid and say, "I could draw like this."

- Yeah.

- And the thing is there, when I say simple, it's not.

Your work is very layered, very complex, but you put this simplistic, let me rephrase that, you make it look simple so that the audience doesn't feel intimidated by it.

Whereas if I'm looking at an issue of "Batman" where everything is overly rendered, if I'm a kid looking at it, it's neat, but I don't think I can do that.

Whereas yours is this, kind of like, almost like a Charles Schulz, where you're kind of inviting the reader to come in and create on their own.

Is this a conscious choice or is this just the style that you've developed over the years, 10 years doing a syndicated strip?

- It's both.

It was absolutely a style that I developed, but I wanted it, I, growing up, was a comic strip person, not a comic book person.

So I loved Charles Schulz and "Peanuts."

I loved "Bugs Bunny," I loved, which wasn't a comic strip, but an animation.

I loved "Garfield."

So I have always been drawn naturally towards simplicity and sort of an economy of line and word.

And that's, I love Charles Schulz as well, because it is so deceptively simple.

I mean, the layers of depth in his work is astounding, even though it looks like, you know, it's simple, is it's not simple at all.

So I also want kids to be able to draw Nat.

And I actually, when I do school visits, I break Nat down into a set of shapes.

Like, "Okay, all you need is circles, dots, straight lines, an upside down question mark for her nose," and they draw along and it's so great to see them draw.

So I want them to feel confident that they could draw her, and also draw their own, tell their own stories, and make their own characters.

And I, you know, growing up, I was always taught, and even in art school, the best way to learn is to copy other characters.

So if I can give them some way, some accessible character to be able to draw, then that gives them the confidence to practice and do other things.

And also, I find that so often kids feel like it's easy, easier to read, just to your point, that they're not overwhelmed.

So in the simplicity, and I just love the economy of line and word in comics.

How few lines can I draw this with?

How few words can I express this with?

That's one of my favorite, another favorite part of, I like the whole writing process, but another favorite part is like, "What can I remove?

How can I bring this down smaller?

How can I choose a better word to express this better?"

So I think, my most important thing is that kids feel like it's a friendly, happy environment that they wanna be in.

- When you are creating your artwork, are you following the, you know, using the traditional tools, pen, ink, pencil on a board?

Or are you embracing the digital tools, maybe something like a Procreate or Clip Studio?

- Literally both.

So the first two books were drawn by hand in pen and ink and watercolor.

And then by the time I got to the third book, I realized it was gonna be a little bit more efficient to use digital color with the continuity of the characters.

So I ink on Procreate, color in Photoshop, but every book starts with pencil on paper because I love traditional media.

I just love that feeling and I really feel, it's funny, I don't know why this is, I feel like I'm playing when I'm on pencil and paper and I feel like I'm working when I'm on a computer, piece of computer equipment.

And the iPad's wonderful and Procreate is wonderful.

I played with Clip Studio Pro, but I have such a workflow, that every time I try and break it, I just, you know, Procreate, I love it.

It's also very simple.

It took me a long time to get my exact nib that looks very much like my ink line.

I had to make like a custom paintbrush, which I use for all the books.

So it's a combination of both.

But I really love traditional media and I think especially when kids are learning to draw, all you need to make comics is a pencil and paper.

And I think that's the best way to learn because the iPad is great and you can draw a perfect circle, a perfect straight line, but really, our line is like our signature.

There's so much character in that.

So that's something I really strive to not lose while working digitally, that same expressive line.

- You say working on the computer is, it feels like work, and I would agree.

I mean, there's just something about that paper, that pencil, the fact that we are forced to stare at a screen all day, whether it's- - Yeah, - Looking at the TPS report or, you know, doing a search on- - [laughs] TPS report.

- Downsizing, you know, we're always kind of working on that screen, so it doesn't seem like it's play.

Whereas getting a chance to sit down quietly, put a record on, and just have that paper tell you the story that your hands wanna show you is just, there's something magical about that.

- Absolutely.

- So, you know, you talk about working with Procreate, finding that right line.

How do you balance between the work that goes into finding that right line and a piece that you think is going to be part of your book?

Or is it all the same, you're just gonna, you know, work and get to the point where you're comfortable?

- Yeah, I will redraw things over and over again.

Both in the writing process, the doodle, you know, the sketching, doodling process, and the final art process.

And I show a picture in my school talks of a trash bin overflowing with paper.

And I was like, "Here's a view into my writing process."

So there's a lot of redoing.

And you know, I'll do that, you know, the undo button is fun because you can undo, undo, undo, right?

Which is also something I love about traditional media.

Some mistakes are great.

Sometimes that kind of messed up line ends up being the best thing that happens.

So I think that I really try and keep that kind of spontaneity and authentic look in the work, even working traditionally.

- How do you avoid the temptation of the undo and just say sometimes, "That happy accident is the right move"?

- I know, I think it's a lot more difficult digitally, 'cause on paper, it happens.

I remember I did this watercolor paint, watercolor drawing using a dip pen, and a big blob of ink landed on it.

I was like, "Oh."

I was like just at the end of it.

And then I kind of swirled it around and turned it into this sun and it was one of my favorite drawings ever.

I don't know that I can get that same kind of just like complete whoops on the computer.

It's a little bit different.

So I'm not sure.

I don't know if I have the answer to that.

- Well, Maria, they are telling me that we are out of time.

If the folks watching at home wanted to find out more about you and your work, is there a place on the web?

- Absolutely.

MariaScrivan.com.

M-A-R-I-A-S-C-R-I-V-A-N.com And then across all social media, but it keeps evolving, I'm @MariaScrivan, but I'm pretty consistently on Instagram, Threads.

I'm giving Blue Sky a chance, Facebook.

So that's where you can find me.

- Maria, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me today.

It's been a fun half hour.

- Thank you so much.

This was a great conversation.

I really appreciate it.

- I'd like to thank everyone at home for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

[heroic upbeat music] [heroic upbeat music continues] [heroic upbeat music] "Comic Culture" is a production of the department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke, giving broadcasting majors professional experience and on-screen credit before they graduate.

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