REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

I AM DELIGHTED TODAY TO INTRODUCE OUR GUEST DR. MARTHA BURK.

SHE IS AN AUTHOR AND SHE IS A POLITICAL PSYCHOLOGIST WHO SPECIALIZES IN WOMEN'S ISSUES AND SHE IS A WOMEN'S EQUITY EXPERT AND WHAT A TIME THIS IS TO HAVE YOU ON.

WELCOME, DR. BURK.

>>MARTHA: THANK YOU SO MUCH, IT IS GOOD TO BE HERE.

>>LORENE: NOW YOU HAVE VAST EXPERIENCE BECAUSE YOU ARE THE MONEY EDITOR FOR MS .

MAGAZINE, AND YOU ARE THE CO-FOUNDER OF MS. MAGAZINE , YOU ARE A HUFFINGTON POST BLOGGER, AND YOU ARE A FREQUENT TV GUEST EXPERT ON ALL KINDS OF SHOWS.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE THINGS YOU DO IS YOU HAVE A PODCAST AND IT IS CALLED "EQUAL TIME" AND IT CAN BE FOUND WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS.

THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY INTRIGUING COMMENTS ON CURRENT AFFAIRS, AND WE HAVE SOME RED HOT TOPICS TO COME TOO.

ONE MORE THING, YOU ARE THE FORMER CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS, AND YOU ARE THE CO-FOUNDER OF THE CENTER FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF PUBLIC POLICY AND LET'S START ABOUT HOW YOU GOT STARTED ON THIS ROAD.

WHAT HAPPENED IN 2003 IN ATLANTA, GEORGIA THAT GOT YOU STARTED ON THIS PATH?

>>MARTHA: I WAS WELL DOWN THIS ROAD WHEN THAT HAPPENED.

>>LORENE: OKAY.

>>MARTHA: I CAN TELL YOU VERY QUICKLY, IT WAS FUNNY.

WE WERE AND ARE THE LARGEST COALITION OF WOMEN'S GROUPS IN THE UNITED STATES AND COLLECTIVELY WE HAD TEN MILLION WOMEN.

MY MEMBERS WERE EVERYTHING FROM PLANNED PARENTHOOD TO CHURCH WOMEN UNITED.

IT JUST WENT ACROSS THE BOARD NATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR WOMEN - ANY BIG GROUP YOU CAN THINK OF.

I WAS, WE CALLED IT CHAIR OF THE GROUP, OBVIOUSLY CHAIR OF THE BOARD AS WELL AND WE HAD A BOARD MEETING AND WE WERE GETTING UP TO LEAVE, PACKING OUR STUFF UP AND I SAID, "OH BY THE WAY, I HEARD ABOUT THIS GOLF CLUB IN AUGUSTA, GEORGIA THAT DOESN'T LET WOMEN IN AND IT IS ALL THE CEOS OF AMERICA'S LARGEST CORPORATIONS.

LET'S WRITE THEM A LETTER."

AND THEY ALL SAID, "FINE, WRITE THEM A LETTER," WE DIDN'T EVEN TAKE A VOTE ON IT.

I WROTE A PERSONAL LETTER TO A GUY NAMED HOOTIE JOHNSON AT THE AUGUSTA NATIONAL GOLF CLUB IN AUGUSTA, GEORGIA, AND A FEW DAYS LATER MY PHONE RANG AND MY ASSISTANT SAID, "YOU HAVE A PRESS CALL FROM THE AP."

AND I TOOK A LOT PRESS CALLS, SO FINE, I GET ON AND A VOICE SAID, "HI, THIS IS DOUG FERGUSION, I AM THE CHIEF GOLF WRITER FOR THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW YOUR REACTION TO MR. JOHNSON'S SALVO TO THE MEDIA ABOUT YOUR LETTER."

AND I SAID, "I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, I GOT A FEDEX ABOUT 30 MINUTES AGO BUT I HAVEN'T HAD TIME TO READ IT."

WELL, IT WAS A BOMB, IT WAS THE WOMEN'S GROUPS WILL NOT PUT US AT THE POINT OF A BAYONET AND ALL THIS RANTING AND RAVING AND, OF COURSE, THE PRESS, AS YOU KNOW, HAS A VERY ROBUST INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND IT WAS A GREAT STORY, THEY ALL LOVED IT.

I COULD PUT TWO WORDS IN FRONT OF EACH OTHER, WHICH HELPED BECAUSE I DID A LOT OF MEDIA ON MY JOB AND SO IT JUST BLEW UP INTO A YEARLONG CONTRETEMPS, WE WON AND WE DIDN'T WIN.

WE HAD A DEMONSTRATION DOWN THERE, THEY PUT US IN A MUDDY FIELD, YOU KNOW IT WAS COVERED BY WORLDWIDE PRESS.

I HAD A CREW THAT CAME AND STAYED WITH ME FOR TWO DAYS FROM FRANCE.

SO THAT WAS IT, ANYWAY, WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO IS CALL ATTENTION TO THE INVISIBLE ALMOST BARRIERS TO WOMEN AT THE TOP LEVELS OF BUSINESS.

THAT'S WHAT IT WAS ABOUT, IT WAS NEVER ABOUT GOLF.

>>LORENE: YES, WELL AND THIS IS AN AREA YOU HAVE MADE SO MUCH DIFFERENCE IN.

I JUST WANT TO QUICKLY MENTION A COUPLE OF YOUR BOOKS AND THEN WE WILL TALK ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN HOT BUTTON ISSUES WITH WOMEN'S ISSUES.

SO ONE OF YOUR EARLY BOOKS WAS CALLED THE CULT OF POWER: SEX DISCRIMINATION IN CORPORATE AMERICA .

THAT MUST BE THOUSANDS OF PAGES, I'M KIDDING, BUT THERE IS A LOT OF SEX DISCRIMINATION IN CORPORATE AMERICA.

TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THAT AND DID YOU JUST DRAW ATTENTION TO IT OR DID YOU FIND A WAY MAYBE TO TAMP IT DOWN A LITTLE BIT SO IT NOT SO BLATANT.

>>MARTHA: WELL THE BOOK CAME AS A RESULT OF THE AUGUSTA NATIONAL CONTROVERSY.

AND THE PUBLISHER ACTUALLY CAME TO ME AND SAID, COULD YOU WRITE ABOUT THIS IN TERMS OF WHAT CORPORATE AMERICA DOES AND DOES NOT DO VIS-A-VIS WOMEN.

AND YOU KNOW IT HAD THE CORPORATIONS, IBM WAS ONE OF THE MAIN MEMBERS OF THE CLUB, HAD THEY HAD SOME LEADERSHIP AND DONE WHAT THEY SHOULD DO, WELL THEY EVENTUALLY PULLED THEIR SPONSORSHIP BECAUSE OF ALL OF THE TV, BUT THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED THEIR TOP EXECS, AND THIS APPLIES TO 50 OTHER BIG CORPORATIONS, AND I AM SURE THE CORPORATIONS PAID THEIR DUES TO THE CLUB AND SO FORTH, THEY NEVER SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT WHEN WOMEN WERE BARRED FROM THAT BUSINESS VENUE WHICH IS WHAT I CALL IT.

I DOUBT IF THOSE BOYS COULD HIT A GOLF BALL ONCE IN THREE MONTHS, SO THEY JUST WENT TO DO BUSINESS AND TALK MONEY TO EACH OTHER AND HAVE SOME SHOTS AT THE BAR.

>>LORENE: WELL, ANYWAY IT WAS VERY EFFECTIVE, AND YOU GOT A LOT OF PRESS ABOUT IT.

AND ONE OTHER THING, YOU HAVE WRITTEN ONE OF MY FAVORITE BOOKS BECAUSE IT IS KIND OF A BIBLE FOR ME AT EVERY ELECTION.

IT IS A SERIES BECAUSE YOU UPDATE IT WITH EVERY ELECTION AND IT IS CALLED YOUR VOICE, YOUR VOTE: THE SAVVY WOMEN'S GUIDE TO POWER, POLITICS AND THE CHANGE WE NEED .

SO DO YOU HAVE A NEW ONE COMING OUT FOR THE 2024 ELECTION, WAS THERE ONE FOR THE 2022 ELECTION, IT IS HARD TO KEEP UP, YOU KNOW, WITH ALL THESE THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON.

>>MARTHA: WE DID NOT DO ANYTHING FOR 2022, WE ARE IN TALKS ABOUT 2024.

I WOULD SAY THERE IS ONLY ABOUT A 50/50 CHANCE.

BUT WHAT I WOULD SAY ABOUT THE BOOK, AND IT IS STILL AVAILABLE READILY ON AMAZON AND PEOPLE SHOULD PICK IT UP FOR THIS REASON, NOT THAT MUCH HAS CHANGED.

I AM SORRY TO SAY THAT THE PAY GAP HAS MOVED MAYBE A HALF A PENNY IN TWO YEARS, THREE YEARS, WE KEEP GOING ON.

WE ARE LOSING RIGHTS AS WE KNOW WITH THE OVERTURN OF ROE, WE HAVE NOT CAUGHT UP IN TERMS OF THE HIGHER ECHELONS OF BUSINESS.

WE DO HAVE ONE LITTLE BRIGHT SPOT HERE IN NEW MEXICO AND THAT IS WE ARE ALMOST AT PARITY WITH THE NUMBER OF WOMEN IN PUBLIC OFFICE AND WE ARE IN ABOUT THE TOP FOUR IN THE UNITED STATES, SO THAT IS A GOOD THING.

>>LORENE: THAT IS.

>>MARTHA: BUT THE SAD THING IS YOU CAN PICK UP THAT BOOK FROM THREE OR FOUR YEARS AGO AND IT IS STILL RELEVANT TODAY EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT ROE IS OVERTURNED NOW.

>>LORENE: WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THAT IS A HUGE, THAT HAS SET WOMEN'S ISSUES BACK SO FAR IT WAS JUST SHOCKING.

OF COURSE, THE SUPREME COURT SAID THEY WERE NEVER GOING TO DO IT BUT THEN, OF COURSE, THEY DID IT.

BUT SO WHAT IS THE REACTION TO ROE BEING OVERTURNED, WOMEN WERE JUST INCENSED, THEY WERE IN THE STREET.

IT IS GOING TO BE A VERY IMPORTANT POLITICAL ISSUE IN THE NEXT ELECTION BUT WHAT ARE THE CHANCES OF RESTORING ROE V WADE AS LAW?

>>MARTHA: I DON'T KNOW.

ONE WAY TO DO IT WOULD BE IF THE UNITED STATES HAD AND WE DON'T AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL, WE DO IN NEW MEXICO, BUT IF WE HAD A FEDERAL EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT, THAT WOULD SETTLE IT ONCE AND FOR ALL.

AND NEW MEXICO HAS AN EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT SO ABORTION IS LEGAL HERE AND WOULD HAVE BEEN ANYWAY HAD THAT 1800'S LAW OR EARLY 1900 NOT BEEN OVERTURNED A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.

BUT IT IS EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THE ERA WOULD SOLVE IT.

NOW PRESIDENT BIDEN COULD DO SOMETHING HERE AND HE HASN'T DONE IT, BUT IF 38 STATES HAD TO RATIFY, THEY HAVE, A COUPLE HAVE RESCINDED, THERE IS NO PROVISION FOR THAT IN THE CONSTITUTION SO THEIR RATIFICATIONS STANDS.

ALL THE PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE TO DO IS TO INSTRUCT THE US ARCHIVISTS TO PUBLISH THE AMENDMENT AND WHY HE HASN'T DONE IT, I DON'T KNOW.

BUT AS LONG AS WE ARE SITTING HERE AND WE, WOMEN, ARE NOT LEGALLY ON PAR WITH MEN, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGHT THESE ABORTION THINGS AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

THERE WILL BE OTHER STUFF COMING DOWN THE PIKE WE HAVEN'T EVEN THOUGHT OF THAT WILL SET WOMEN BACK.

>>LORENE: WELL, THE PAY EQUITY, HOW ARE WE DOING WITH PAY EQUITY, HOW MUCH A WOMAN IS PAID FOR THE SAME WORK AS A MAN DOING THE SAME WORK.

>>MARTHA: OKAY, I'LL TELL YOU HOW FAR WE HAVE COME AND HOW FAR WE HAVEN'T.

FIVE YEARS AGO THE PAY GAP WAS ABOUT 78 CENTS ON THE DOLLAR, THAT'S ALL WOMEN AS COMPARED TO THE HIGHEST PAID MEN WHO ARE WHITE MEN.

TODAY, IT IS 82 CENTS ON THE DOLLAR, WE ARE NOT HARDLY MAKING ANY PROGRESS.

AND, OF COURSE, NEW MEXICO IS WORSE OFF BECAUSE WOMEN OF COLOR IN ALL STATES ARE WORSE OFF, THEIR PAY GAP IS WAY DOWN IN THE LOW 70S AND IN SOME CASES HIGH 60S FOR SOME HISPANIC DISTRICTS.

SO WE ARE NOT DOING THAT GREAT AND WE HAVE HAD AN EQUAL PAY ACT SINCE 1963 AND WE ARE STILL NOT EQUAL WITH MEN IN PAY.

LYNDON JOHNSON SIGNED THAT BILL AND SO EMPLOYERS ARE NOT BEING PROSECUTED AND THEY DON'T ACT IN GOOD FAITH.

THERE IS ONE KIND OF GOOD THING THAT HAS HAPPENED RECENTLY, AND I WILL TELL YOU QUICKLY, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS DECIDED THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE A FEDERAL CONTRACTOR, YOU CANNOT USE SALARY HISTORY IN SETTING THE SALARY OF NEW HIRES.

AND AS WE KNOW, YOU KNOW, IF YOU ARE A WOMAN, YOU HAVE BEEN MAKING LESS AT YOUR LAST JOB AND YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM WHAT YOU MADE AND THEY CAN USE THAT TO SET YOUR JOB HERE YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO CATCH UP.

>>LORENE: SO DO YOU SEE AND IS THERE SOMETHING THAT OUR LEGISLATURE CAN DO TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN IN NEW MEXICO?

>>MARTHA: YES.

BILL RICHARDSON MADE A BIG STEP IN TRYING TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN WHEN HE WAS GOVERNOR.

HE ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER AND IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN, IT IS STILL IN FORCE ALTHOUGH UNENFORCED, AND WHAT IT SAID, THINK ABOUT THIS AS A TAXPAYER, THAT IF YOU WANT A CONTRACT, YOU ARE A COMPANY, LET'S SAY DO YOU WANT TO SUPPLY, I DON'T KNOW, MATERIALS FOR STATE PARKS AND YOU WANT A CONTRACT WITH THE STATE TO DO THAT.

IF YOU GET THE CONTRACT OR EVEN APPLY FOR IT YOU HAVE TO TELL US HOW YOU PAY WOMEN AND HOW YOU PAY MEN IN EACH JOB CATEGORY.

IT IS NOT ANYBODY'S INDIVIDUAL SALARY ON THE BULLETIN BOARD, BUT YOUR AVERAGE FOR WOMEN LET'S SAY IS $7.20 AN HOUR OR $72.00 A MONTH WHATEVER AND THE MEN IS UP TO 100 PERCENT $100.

SO IF YOU WANT PUBLIC MONEY YOU HAVE GOT TO TELL US.

AND BILL RICHARDSON ENFORCED IT, THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS IN PLACE TO DO IT BECAUSE I DID IT, I CONTRACTED WITH SOME OF THE FOLKS THAT ARE HEAD OF THE BUSINESSES TO TELL ME THEIR PROBLEMS AND SO FORTH WITH IT.

WE GOT IT WORKED OUT AND IT IS A PART OF THAT EXECUTIVE ORDER.

OKAY, WE WERE DOING GREAT, WE WERE GETTING REPORTS IN, WE WERE SEEING WHAT WOMEN WERE BEING PAID AND THEN SUSANNA MARTINEZ CAME IN AND SHE LET IT DROP COMPLETELY.

I ASKED OUR CURRENT GOVERNOR WHY SHE DID NOT REINSTATE IT, IT IS SITTING THERE WAITING AND ALL SHE SAID TO ME WAS, "DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, IT IS ALL UNDER CONTROL."

AND THAT WAS ABOUT TWO WEEKS AFTER SHE CAME INTO OFFICE.

>>LORENE: OH.

>>MARTHA: SO, OUR PRESENT GOVERNOR REALLY OUGHT TO LOOK AT THAT.

I THINK WOMEN WOULD CHEER HER FOR IT, SO WOULD MEN BECAUSE YOU LIFT WOMEN, YOU LIFT THE HOUSEHOLD.

>>LORENE: WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH DR. MARTHA BURK ABOUT WOMEN'S EQUITY ISSUES AND DIDN'T THE COMMISSION IN NEW MEXICO, THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED THE COMMISSION ON THE STATUS OF WOMEN, ARE THEY ABLE TO MOVE THAT PAY INEQUITY, DRAW ATTENTION TO IT AND WORK ON IT?

>>MARTHA: WELL, THEY CAN DRAW OUR ATTENTION TO IT, YOU KNOW, PUT OUT A POSITION PAPER OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THEY CANNOT LEGISLATE AND AS LONG AS WE HAVE THIS EXECUTIVE ORDER, WHICH IS COMPLETELY LEGAL AND HAS BEEN TESTED AND WORKS, THE GOVERNOR ALONE CAN DO IT.

SHE DOESN'T NEED A COMMISSION, SHE DOESN'T NEED ANYTHING ELSE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEM IS, MAYBE THE COMMISSION COULD ASK HER.

>>LORENE: YES, YES.

WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO LEAVE THE GOVERNMENT FIELD AND WE WANT IN THE PLAYING FIELD BECAUSE RECENTLY, THERE HAS BEEN AN ISSUE WITH THE WORLD'S CUP.

THE SPANISH TEAM WON AND THEN THE HEAD OF THE SPANISH SOCCER FEDERATION GAVE A VERY AGGRESSIVE AND UNWANTED KISS TO THE CAPTAIN OF THE TEAM AND THEN SUDDENLY THE SPANISH TEAM, BECAUSE THEY WON THE WORLD CUP, THEY WERE SAYING, WERE NOT PLAYING, WE WON'T DO ANYTHING WITH SPAIN UNTIL THIS GUY IS GONE AND THEN IT ALSO AFFECTED HOW WOMEN'S EQUITY FOR WOMEN ATHLETES COMPARED TO MEN AND THEY HAVE ACTUALLY MADE PROGRESS NOW, INSISTING THROUGH THIS VERY CONSPICUOUS CONTROVERSIAL ACT THAT THEY ARE GOING TO FIND A WAY.

WELL, YOU TELL ME ABOUT PAY EQUITY AND SPORTS, WOMEN AND MEN.

>>MARTHA: WELL, I WILL BECAUSE MY PODCAST I DID JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO ON THE WOMEN IN SOCCER.

>>LORENE: YES, TELL ME.

>>MARTHA: AND THEY HAD WORKED FOR FIVE YEARS TO GET EQUAL PAY WITH THE MEN FROM THEIR FEDERATION AND THEY DID IT AND OTHER COUNTRIES FOLLOWED SUIT.

SO THEY'VE NOW EQUALIZED PAY WITH QUITE A FEW COUNTRIES.

BUT BACK TO THIS LATEST THING, THE HEAD OF THAT FEDERATION HAS STOOD STRONG, HE IS NOT GOING TO RESIGN, HE IS NOT GOING TO DO THIS AND THAT.

AND AT FIRST, THIS IS WHAT WAS SO BAD, THE WOMEN'S COACH STOOD BY HIM.

HE SAID IT WAS A CONSENSUAL KISS, IT WAS NOT.

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT, IT LOOKS HORRIBLE ON TELEVISION WHICH HAS BEEN PLAYED OVER AND OVER.

>>LORENE: BUT HE GRABBED HER HEAD FEROCIOUSLY AND HELD HER AND THEN AGGRESSIVELY PLANTED A KISS ON HER MOUTH THAT SHE DID NOT WANT.

>>MARTHA: ABSOLUTELY AND THE COACH STOOD BY HIM, THE WOMEN'S COACH, I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT UNTIL FINALLY HIS COACHING STAFF HAD TO THREATEN TO ALL TO RESIGN ENMASSE BEFORE HE BACKED OFF AND SAID, NO, IT WAS THE WRONG THING TO DO.

SO RIGHT NOW THIS I CAN'T PRONOUNCE HIS NAME, BUT THE KISSER HAS A 90-DAY SUSPENSION.

BUT UNLESS SOMETHING IS HAPPENING IN THE LAST DAY THAT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT, HE IS STILL EMPLOYED.

>>LORENE: YES, BUT IT HAS HAD A HUGE WORLDWIDE RIPPLE EFFECT.

IT IS A REAL CONTROVERSY AND I THINK IT IS THE KIND OF TO THE POINT WHERE PEOPLE REALIZE WE HAVE HAD IT AND IT WOULD BE OF COURSE SPAIN WITH ITS REPUTATION OF MACHISMO AND THE WOMEN, I JUST THINK WE ARE DONE.

YOU CAN'T JUST GRAB US AND KISS US, DO WHATEVER YOU WANT.

WE ARE DRAWING THE LINE NOW, WE WILL NOT PUT UP WITH THAT.

SO ALL OF THESE INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S SPORTS GROUPS ARE SAYING, WE ARE STANDING WITH HER, HER NAME IS JENNI AND THEY HAVE BANNERS AND WE ARE WITH JENNI AND NOW EVEN A LOT OF THE OTHER MEN'S GROUPS ARE STANDING WITH HER, TOO.

SO THIS MIGHT BE A TIME WHEN FINALLY WOMEN GET IF NOT THE PAY THEY DESERVE FINALLY SOME OF THE RESPECT THEY DESERVE.

>>MARTHA: WELL I THINK SO AND WHAT IS SO SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THIS AND WE KNOW HISTORICALLY, PARTICULARLY IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT WORLDWIDE, SOCIAL CHANGE IS OFTEN MADE IN THE STREETS AND THESE ARE THE FIGURATIVE STREETS WHEN THE WOMEN ARE SAYING, OKAY, NO MORE, WE ARE NOT GOING TO PLAY, WE ARE NOT GOING TO PLAY IF WE HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS.

THE UNITED STATES, THAT'S HOW THE SOCCER TEAM GOT EQUAL PAY AND NOW OTHER COUNTRIES ARE FOLLOWING SUIT, BUT THIS WAS TO ME HAVING GROWN UP I GOT KIDDED LAST WEEK ON A TV SHOW BECAUSE I WAS BORN DURING WORLD WAR II THE GUY SAID, BE THAT AS IT MAY OR NOT, THIS IS AN OLD GUY THING.

THIS IS A THING THAT WAS OKAY IN THE 1950S AND IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN QUESTIONED BY THE WOMEN OR THE POWERS THAT BE BECAUSE IT SEEMED NORMAL.

AND NOW THE WOMEN ARE MAKING IT NOT NORMAL AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT.

>>LORENE: AND IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT YOUNG GIRLS GROWING UP SEE THEIR LEADERS AND THEIR SPORTS HEROES, THE WOMEN WHO THEY LOOK UP TO, AMERICAN WOMEN'S SOCCER TEAM AND OF COURSE THE WORLD CHAMPIONS SOCCER TEAM IS SPANISH, THE WOMEN ARE JUST NOT GOING TO PUT UP.

NO MORE OF THE GOOD OLE BOY NETWORK, YOU KNOW, THINGS HAVE CHANGED AND I REALLY THINK IT IS A SEA CHANGE.

I THINK IT IS GOING TO MAKE A HUGE AMOUNT OF DIFFERENCE NOW AND I AM GLAD, I AM REALLY GLAD.

>>MARTHA: YEAH AND WE HAVE TO HAVE SOMEBODY TO GET OUT THERE AND BE OUT FRONT AND THAT'S WHAT THE US WOMEN IN SOCCER DID.

THEY SAID, WE ARE NOT GOING TO PLAY ANYMORE IF WE DON'T GET EQUAL PAY WITH THE MEN.

AND IT TOOK THEM A YEAR AND A HALF AT LEAST TO GET IT DONE BUT THEY DID GET IT DONE AND AS I HAVE SAID NOW A LOT OF OTHER COUNTRIES ARE FOLLOWING SUIT.

SO IT DOES TAKE SOME LEADERSHIP, SOME GUTS, SOME WILLING TO LOSE SOMETHING, BECAUSE YOU COULD GET KICKED OFF A TEAM FOR BEING AN ACTIVIST AND THERE WASN'T ANY LAW AGAINST IT, PROBABLY STILL NOT EXCEPT FOR THE LAW OF PUBLICITY.

THANK GOODNESS FOR THE PRESS.

BUT WOMEN ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAD THE CHANGE AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE.

>>LORENE: AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE.

WELL, THERE IS A HISTORY OF WOMEN ALWAYS ORGANIZING TO FIGHT FOR THEIR OWN INTERESTS, BUT HOW CAN WE ACCELERATE THAT, THERE IS A LOT INEQUITY AND LIKE THIS THE UNWELCOME KISS SHOWS A LOT OF WOMEN JUST HAVE HAD IT WITH THIS AND ARE NOT GOING TO PUT UP WITH THIS ANYMORE.

SO WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO AS WOMEN, ARE THERE ORGANIZATIONS THAT WILL HELP US WITH THIS AND HOW CAN WE FIGHT FOR OUR OWN BEST INTERESTS?

>>MARTHA: WELL THERE ARE TONS OF ORGANIZATIONS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, GO AHEAD.

>>MARTHA: THE THING IS WOMEN MUST USE THEIR POWER OF REFUSAL FOR ONE THING, I AM NOT GOING TO DO THIS UNLESS I AM PAID MORE.

WE NEED TO GO TO THE BALLOT BOX, BECAUSE THERE IS THIS OLD SAYING IN FEMINISM, IF YOU CAN'T CHANGE THEIR MINDS CHANGE THEIR FACES.

AND IF THEY ARE ANTI-CHOICE, IF THEY ARE ANTI-ABORTION, LET IT BE KNOWN TO EVERYBODY YOU KNOW AND CAN INFLUENCE, DON'T VOTE FOR THIS PERSON, PERIOD.

DO NOT VOTE FOR THEM, PUT SOMEBODY IN OFFICE THAT IS LOOKING AFTER YOUR OWN INTEREST BECAUSE THE ROE THING HAS SHOWN US, THAT REALLY CHANGE AND OFTEN CHANGE FOR NOT THE BETTER THE WORSE IS MADE AT THE TOP.

AND WHEN THAT SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED ROE, WE SAW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO HAVE PEOPLE IN OFFICE THAT DO NOT HAVE WOMEN'S INTERESTS AT HEART OR IN THEIR HEADS FOR THAT MATTER, THEY HAVE TRIPS ON YACHTS AND SO FORTH.

SO WE DO HAVE TO DO IT AT THE BALLOT BOX FOR SURE IN THE STREETS FOR SURE, THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN SOMETHING THAT HAS MADE CHANGE.

I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION ON THE ABORTION ISSUE JUST VERY BRIEFLY BECAUSE THIS JUST CAME OUT, THERE ARE SOME TOWNS IN TEXAS NOW THAT ARE TRYING TO MAKE IT ILLEGAL TO TRANSPORT ON A TEXAS HIGHWAY ANYONE WHO SEEKS AN ABORTION IN NEW MEXICO.

AND THE WAY THEY ARE STRUCTURING THEIR ORDINANCES, ANY CITIZEN CAN SUE ANYBODY AND GO TO COURT AND SAY, "I AM SUING THIS PERSON FOR DAMAGES BECAUSE THEY DROVE SOMEONE ACROSS THE BORDER TO AN ABORTION CLINIC IN NEW MEXICO."

AND THAT'S HOW FAR SOME OF THIS STUFF IS GOING, THEY ARE TARGETING INTERSTATES AS WELL AS STATE HIGHWAYS, THERE IS A MAP, IT'S IN THE WASHINGTON POST AND YOU CAN JUST LOOK AT ALL OF THE MAIN HIGHWAYS COMING INTO NEW MEXICO AND THAT'S WHERE THEY ARE TRYING TO BLOCK.

>>LORENE: I JUST THINK THAT IS A DANGEROUS, VERY SLIPPERY SLOPE, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE GOT CITIZENS CALLING OUT TO REPORT OTHER CITIZENS AND DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOPE TO FASCISM AND I AM DEEPLY DISTURBED BY THAT, I WILL LOOK INTO IT.

BUT, WE, IN OUR LAST LEGISLATURE, THERE WAS A VOTE TO REPEAL A 50-YEAR OLD ANTI-ABORTION LAW IN OUR STATE AND THERE WERE SEVERAL OLDER LAWMAKERS WHO WANT TO KEEP THAT ABORTION LAW ON THE BOOKS AND IN THE FOLLOWING ELECTION, THEY WERE TARGETED, THEY WERE PRIMARIED AND SIX OF THE LAWMAKERS WHO VOTED TO BAN ABORTION LOST THEIR SEATS.

SO THERE IS POWER AT THE BALLOT BOX AND WE JUST HAVE TO BE REALLY AWARE.

>>MARTHA: THERE IS ABSOLUTELY POWER AT THE BALLOT BOX AND THE STOPGAP OR STOP EVERYTHING SITUATION IN NEW MEXICO, AND WE MUST NOT FORGET THIS, IS NEW MEXICO HAS AN EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT AND THAT ALONE, SHOULD GUARANTEE ABORTION RIGHTS.

IN THIS BUSINESS AS WE KNOW, SOME LOCAL JURISDICTIONS HAVE NOW STARTED TRYING TO BAN ABORTIONS IN THEIR TOWN, THAT'S ILLEGAL, THEY CANNOT DO IT.

BUT, AGAIN, IT IS GOT TO BE LITIGATED AND I MEAN IT IS A SHAME THAT IT DOES, BUT ONE THING I SAY AS AN ACTIVIST IS THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS YOU CAN DO, GETTING IN THE STREETS IS ONE.

BUT GETTING IN YOUR BANK ACCOUNT AND SUPPORTING THE LITIGATORS AND HERE IN NEW MEXICO, TWO OF THE STRONGEST ON THE ABORTION ISSUE ARE THE ACLU AND PLANNED PARENTHOOD AND WE NEED TO SUPPORT THOSE GUYS AND GALS THAT ARE READY TO GO TO COURT AND PLEAD THE CASE FOR THE PUBLIC BECAUSE ULTIMATELY, AS WE SAW WITH THE OVERTURN OF ROE, THAT'S WHERE IT IS GOING TO END AND WE NEED TO BE AWARE OF THAT AND SUPPORT IT.

>>LORENE: WELL THAT'S YEAH, I AM GRATEFUL BECAUSE I ASKED YOU WHAT MUST WE DO AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE CAN DO.

AND THEN WHAT ABOUT ORGANIZING SMALL WOMEN'S GROUPS TO ACTUALLY SAY, "WE WON'T PUT UP WITH THIS, WE ARE GOING TO FIGHT TO GET OUR RIGHTS BACK."

>>MARTHA: THAT WOULD ABSOLUTELY HELP IN THESE SMALL PLACES WHERE THEY ARE TRYING TO BAN ABORTION AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT WHO SHOWS UP AT THESE MEETINGS, AND I AM SORRY TO SAY A LOT OF IT IS FEAR, BECAUSE YOU COULD GET SHOT NOW FOR YOUR OWN BELIEFS, BUT USUALLY THE ANTI-ABORTION FOLKS COOK THESE THINGS UP, THEY PACK THE HALLS WITH ANTI-ABORTION PEOPLE AND THEY ARE VERY LOUD.

AND I THINK THAT MAYBE WE OUGHT TO GO BACK TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS DAYS AND PROTEST SILENTLY OUTSIDE THEIR VENUES, BECAUSE YOU WIN ARGUMENTS AS WE KNOW, IN THE STREETS BUT YOU WIN THEM IN THE PRESS, TOO.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>MARTHA: AND IF YOU DO SOMETHING THAT IS JUST A LITTLE BIT OUTRAGEOUS OR OFF THE WALL, YOU ARE GOING TO GET SOME ATTENTION AND MAYBE GET PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT IT.

>>LORENE: YES, BUT ONE THING THAT I AM SO NERVOUS ABOUT IN THE POST-TRUMP ERA IS THAT THERE IS A LOT OF VIOLENCE NOW AND THE PEOPLE ARE IN FEAR FOR THEIR FAMILY'S LIFE AND FOR THEIR LIVES, SO WE JUST NEED TO DIAL IT ALL DOWN.

BUT I JUST REALLY WANT TO THANK YOU.

OUR GUEST TODAY HAS BEEN DR. MARTHA BURK, A POLITICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR AND MY GO-TO EXPERT ON WOMEN'S ISSUES.

THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO BE WITH US.

>>MARTHA: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW, IT IS ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>>LORENE: IT IS A PLEASURE.

AND I AM LORENE MILLS, IT IS A PLEASURE HAVING YOU IN OUR AUDIENCE WATCHING US AND LISTENING TO US TODAY.

AND WE WILL SEE YOU NEXT REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM