I'm Abigail Vining and I'm an English major with concentration in professional writing.

I think my favorite part of Black, White, and Grey was the banter, the back and forth banter between Mashama Bailey and John O. Morisano.

I think that it was, it talked about a lot in the book, how it was an unusual pairing of people, but they just worked so well and I watched some like videos of them afterwards and that just brings it to life even more, the relationship that they have, and I think it's really cool.

I think readers can expect to find something that they've never read before, something new and exciting, but also I mean comfort and familiarity with like the food that they talk about, especially if you've grown up in the south, you know about Hop and John and collard greens and everything, and the places that they talk about.

I grew up close to Charleston, so it was fun to hear about Charleston.

It was fun to hear about Savannah.

and so I think that that's just exciting things, but also comfort.

I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established southern authors as we sit by the river.

♪ music ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina for more than 40 years.

The ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

Additional funding is provided by the USCB Center for the Arts, Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB and the Pat Conroy Literary Center.

Well, it's another beautiful day here at our low country studio in beautiful Beaufort, South Carolina.

This is part of our love letter to Southern writing, and we're bringing you powerful stories from both new and established southern authors.

and this season we are focusing on unexpected southern stories and writers.

and we are here today with the authors of Black, White, and the Grey.

Mashama Bailey and John O. Morisano.

Thank you so much for crossing the bridge and coming over from Savannah.

Really excited about this conversation and appreciate you, you agreeing to come on By the River.

<John O.> Thanks for having us.

Absolutely.

<Mashama> Thank you very, very much.

Let's get right into it.

John O., you know, you make, make a move to Savannah, Georgia with really no connection.

No idea what the heck you're going to do.

<John O.> True.

<Holly> You must have had, <John O.> I still feel that way.

<Holly>...you had, you had your wife who was like, who also, you know, in so many words said, you're crazy.

<John O.> Right.

<Holly> Ummm.

Probably many people who met with you on the business front and you had all these wild ideas.

Why take this risk?

Was there ever a point where you felt like, whether it's some higher power or a nudge within you that this is something you had to do, but just didn't know why yet?

>> Yeah, I mean, the food and wine part I had kind of always considered as an option for myself at some point in my career.

So maybe that wasn't the most surprising part.

Having had some time to reflect on it now and having written a book about it, I think it was reinvention.

I think I was literally just going to make up a new me and the restaurant was how I was going to do that.

I was burned out and I was, I was tired, you know, I was emotionally tired.

and so I really think it was just a, a question of starting over in a way and doing something completely different.

<Holly> So I kind of jumped ahead.

I assumed the viewer knows The Grey is a restaurant in Savannah that you started and you all are partners.

You say you were emotionally tired, but then starting a restaurant is typically not what someone does when they're tired.

Cause it takes a whole lot.

<John O.> Well, I've been saying a lot recently because we've, we've both been traveling a lot, so you mean a lot of new people and they're like restaurant home like, yeah, that was my retirement plan.

They're like, that's a bad plan and it's a bad retirement plan because you work a lot.

But I think that when you do something that you're passionate about, it's not emotionally draining.

It's actually energizing.

and so The Grey, it's physically tiring.

So now I've got the opposite.

I'm tired, like I don't sleep enough, but I feel really energized and really invigorated by from the day we started.

Right?

Like, it's just been kind of nonstop, you know?

<Mashama> I don't know if I agree with you.

I think.

<Holly> I love that.

Yes, already!

We're about one minute in and we're in disagreement mode.

<John O.>She never agrees.

We never agree.

<Holly> This is fun.

Okay.

<Mashama> I think there's ebbs and flows.

I do think it's mentally exhausting and I think it's physically exhausting, but then I think that there, it revitalizes you in this way that you don't expect, right.

It's just, we're just cooking food and serving drinks, and trying to make people feel welcome, and those are the parts that revitalize you, but, you know, going, coming out of a pandemic, like staffing is exhausting and labor is exhausting and food chain is exhausting and everything's going up.

<John O.> Yeah.

<Mashama> So, those parts start to kind of beat you down a little bit, but then you get in front of the team and they build you back up, you know, we build each other back up.

So it's a give and take.

<John O.> Yeah.

Yeah.

That's fair.

That's.

Fair.

Yeah.

<Holly> I remember in, in one part of the book, Mashama, you were saying, you know, on any given night you might have the dishwasher call out because the daughter, you know, was sick <Mashama> because the dog ate their homework or whatever, <Holly> Right!

All these different things.

and it might not happen in one night, but it's probably going to all happen in one week.

and so after so much experience through that, you still wanted to...dive in and give this a shot, but you know, these moments that you have with these, these diners, they are often very special moments.

They're celebrating anniversaries and birthdays and new jobs and that sort of thing.

<Mashama> Right.

<Holly> So what is it like to be a part of someone's life in those special moments?

<Mashama> It feels great.

You feel, I feel honored actually that they chose us.

My favorite thing is to have a solo diner come in, because they, you know, they're using, they, they didn't gather a bunch of friends.

It may not be a special occasion, and they decided to come in and spend their money with us, and they chose us.

and I think that those moments are really special because it, it, it makes you stand out and people are being thoughtful about where they eat and where they want it dine and the experiences that they want to have.

and so I really love.

I don't think we're a special occasion place, but I love when those special occasions come in.

The team loves it.

We give them, you know, splashes of bubbles or like, we'll give them a dog bone made of meringue with a candle on it to just say happy birthday and those types of things because it's really is about like celebrating around food and drinking and the atmosphere is great.

So, I mean, that's what makes it fun.

<John O.> Yeah.

<Holly> Your restaurant life is so busy and I can only imagine adding in writing a book had to just be overwhelming.

Why did you think it was a need?

<Mashama> Yeah, John O., why was it a need?

(laughing) <Holly> Because you were mighty resistant.

<John O.> Can I tell one story about special occasions before that?

Because it just, when you asked that question, so we were doing a popup in New York City in the middle of the pandemic, and a couple came in and they had been to the restaurant The Grey in Savannah, which the whole dog thing and connection, it was a Greyhound bus terminal.

<Holly> Right.

<John O.> So, a dog is part of our branding and our...iconography.

But I was talking to this guy, Mashama was cooking and I was in front of the house, you know, sort of talking to guests and he's like, oh, we, my wife and I were at your restaurant a couple of years ago and it was like one of the best experiences we've ever had.

and I'm like, you know, thank you.

and I always get goose bumps when I hear stories like that, and he goes so special to us that we named our daughter who was born after our visit, Savannah Grey.

<Holly> Oh my gosh.

<John O.> I know.

<Mashama>Wow!

<John O.> And I was like, yeah.

I was like, what?

He's like, yeah, we named her that.

<Holly> Wow!

Wow!

<John O.> I stay in touch with him now on Instagram.

Yeah, I know, it's just like, he's...that's what it meant to us that weekend.

So it's like, <Mashama> That's cool.

Being part of people's lives like that in these like sort of short bursts and moments is really kind of what makes life satisfying, right?

<Holly> Absolutely.

<Mashama> It makes the restaurant business satisfying.

<John O.>It's like just when you see your dry cleaner and you have like a nice moment, it's like, how are you today?

Right.

and it's like there was a good moment.

You know?

<Holly> Yeah.

<John O.> Anyway.

<Holly> Back to the book.

<John O.> There was no need to write the book.

<Holly> There was no need.

<John O.> ...a dumb idea.

It was a terrible idea.

<Holly> Do you feel that you, Mashama this might be weird at first to think this, but do you feel like you're a different, better chef because of the book experience?

<Mashama> I think I'm a different, better person because of the book experience.

I think that I sort of, I started to unlock certain things about myself that I never felt like I needed to.

I think I'm a better communicator because of the book, and I think that I'm a better leader because of the book.

I'm ready to sort of let some things go and give and delegate to other people.

and I think before the book I wasn't ready for that.

I think it really helped with my self confidence actually.

>> and it's really different the way it's written.

and how would you explain it and why you all decided to go that route?

<John O.> Well, the way the book was conceived, I went to Mashama and to answer the question, like, and it's another thing where I think the need only showed up to me retrospectively.

Right, because it was really an exploration on our flaws ultimately.

and going through that process is cathartic.

When I went to Mashama and I said, Hey, let's write a book.

She was like, no, I don't want to do that.

It was like really, really simple.

and I'm like, well, I might do it.

She's like, have at it.

and so that's how the book started, and the book originally was going to be very business, logistics, you know, here's how entrepreneur here's some advice for the entrepreneur that's starting a crazy business or following a passion or doing something and here's some of the things you need to look out for, and the editor who bought the book, Lorena Jones, who we remain really, really good friends with, she was just like, you know, like, the book's good, but it would be great if we could somehow figure out how to plug Mashama's perspective into these things, because this is really a story about two people and you're trying to tell it from one person's point of view, and it would be, frankly, it would just be better the other way.

and so I went to Mashama and lied to her about how easy a process this would be and that she would barely need to do any work at all.

and she could eat bon bons and get manicures and dictate to me and I'll do everything.

And, and I think in retrospect, I really was lying because I knew, I knew Mashama well enough and I knew the two of us well enough that once we really decided to do this together, we were going to do as best a job as we could do.

and that was going to require two years of your time <Mashama>...hard work.

<John O.>...and a lot of hard work.

<Mashama>Yeah.

<John O.> between the two of us, we have like five or six years in the book.

<Holly> Right, right.

<John O.> It's like a lot.

<Holly> Race relations, that's a huge part of the book.

<Holly> There are some tense moments.

You know, we're talking about some tough times.

Were there ever moments where you thought, wait a minute, this might come between us?

There are some... <Mashama> Yeah.

<Holly> Talk about those and why you kept going.

<Mashama> So, I think that really, there were parts of the book that we've talked, like our view of Savannah was slightly different.

Our view around the incident of Scott's death was slightly different.

I don't know if that's a spoiler alert, but that was slightly different, and so, and that was really coming from, that was really based on our backgrounds and our perspectives of how things, you know, occurred in our life and how we were empathetic to certain things or are, judgmental of other things.

I think that the book really explored our relationship surrounding race, and we never had a conversation about race before that.

Like, obviously we know that each other are of different races, you know, and we respect that of one another.

We know that from a food perspective, we know that from just looking at each other.

But when we really kind of got in to talk about like opinions and politics and, and those types of things, we never had those conversations because we were really just focused on growing the business.

So, as you write a book about different things or the approach to different things that are happening to us, like the way that we're building the restaurant and the contractor's perspective of a point of view of me versus his point of view of him, those things are very personal.

and so, and they're sometimes race based, right?

Those viewpoints are based on race and how you experience those things through life.

Those -how you take those experiences through life, and I think until we actually realized that we needed to add, we needed to under- have a conversation with each other before we could actually put it in the book.

We...didn't, we didn't really have a book then.

It was really just us kind of like walking alongside each other but never really talking to each other.

and it wasn't until we started talking to each other about the different experiences that we were shelling out in the book.

It wasn't... that's when the book started to come together, I think.

<Holly> When the book ended, did that end or have y'all continued those kinds of conversations?

<John O.> Oh, I think it, I think that was the catalyst for starting the conversations and now we have them all the time.

...and not they, we don't talk about race all the time, but we were with a woman last night and we did talk about race a lot.

But I think we just freed us to be able to have conversations, you know.

<Mashama> and to learn from one another.

Right.

To listen to one another, I think.

<John O.> Yeah, cause we're not solving anybody's problems, right, because between the two of us, it's just a really healthy business slash friendship relationship.

and then, then it's more what it, you know, what the book and our relationship represents to other people, you know, it's like people project onto you what they want to see and that's the part that, you know, you navigate a little bit, I think.

<Holly> and you touched on, you know, the, the book starts off with extreme tragedy that you had to deal with that was deeply personal to both of you.

Tell me the timeline.

Had the book already began when that tragedy happened?

<John O.> No.

<Holly> Okay.

<John O.> No, I think Scott's death was a big catalyst for me wanting to write and to, because it was shortly after Scott's death that Eater named us the best restaurant in America, which we never expected.

So it was like this talk about ebb and flow.

It was, you know, this hyperly tragic event then followed by something that we didn't expect, but we didn't realize that we were about to be put sort of in the realm of good restaurants, and those two things together made me very, I was probably writing, but I hadn't formed a book yet.

Yeah, because I've been writing, I've been writing my whole adult life, so.

Yeah.

<Holly> Well, I love whenever, and this came to my mind whenever you talked about the part where, Scott kind of argued with you about wanting those guys in Speedos to be allowed in the restaurant.

And... <John O.> He might have won that argument today.

<Holly> I did, I did want to know, did the guy, or what did y'all decide?

<John O.> We decided, no, but I'm, much more easygoing these days.

<Holly> Yeah, okay.

<Mashama> Those debates would get really heated.

<Holly> Yeah?

<Mashama> He was really about tank tops.

He wore a lot of tank tops.

<John O.> He did wear a lot of tank tops.

<Holly> He wanted no dress code for the restaurant, at all.

<Mashama> Zero dress code.

<Holly> Come as you are.

<John O.> Yeah.

<Holly> But you know, really what an honor to him, the things that you wrote in this book, because of those desires that he had.

I mean, I feel like he would be very proud of that.

<Mashama> He had a lot of heart and soul and he was a very special individual.

So, you know, I do, I love that he's in the book and I love that, you know, he was in our lives, you know, it was, it is very, I think he helped make the restaurant really special.

<John O.> Yeah, and we stay in touch with his mom, you know, we are forever bonded now and she's very happy with the book and, and his sisters are and so, yeah.

and how he, we didn't portray him, we just wrote who he was.

<Holly> Right, right.

<John O.> -changed the names to protect the innocent.

Like Scott was like, he wore everything on his sleeve.

Yeah.

<Holly> Very good.

Talking about, you know, her being happy with the book.

I was wondering, you know, there were some spots in the book where I'm thinking like, I wonder what the Chamber of Commerce thinks about this, you know, talking about Savannah and stuff, but you all, you didn't hold back and I love that.

I felt like we're getting the real deal, but what kind of reactions did you get?

Were some of them not so pretty?

<Mashama> Well, you know, I don't know.

<John O.>No.

I don't think we got <Mashama> I don't think, we got much of a reaction, quite frankly.

<John O.> Yeah.

I, you know, Yeah.

Like the Chamber and all those folks, like we don't really have a relationship with them.

<Holly> Yeah.

I mean, I don't mean them specifically what does the Chamber think, but, we were talking about some of the areas of Savannah and that sort of thing.

<John O.> Yeah.

<Holly> You were, very and it's a tourist city.

<John O.> I think.

You know.

I, sort of am out and about in Savannah more than Mashama, and I got, the reactions I heard were, you weren't hard enough on Savannah and the issues that Savannah has and then rumors of we were a little too hard on them, but I think all in all, I think people thought we told our story as fairly as we could, and if we told it today, it would be different because our perspectives have evolved.

<Holly> Right.

<John O.> So it would be a different viewpoint on it, you know?

Yeah.

<Holly> So whenever your, those come in to dine at the restaurant, do you ever have people who come because of the book?

<John O.> Yeah.

Yes.

<Mashama> Yes.

<Holly> and what, generally are they saying?

<Mashama> They want us to sign the book?

(All laugh) They want to take pictures with us.

They generally, saying that they love the book and they like what - they like the conversation that we're having in the book.

That's the general, <Holly> I love that there are so many surprises and one of them you are very clear about, I don't want the shrimp and grits, I don't want the deep fried foods.

I don't want what people think of as Savannah food.

And why were you so adamant on that?

<John O.> Well...

I wanted Italian food.

Right.

Because I'm Italian, but I...didn't, I wanted it to be surprising.

Right.

I wanted, I wanted us to do something that was not built for tourists.

Right.

and I think that, you know, there's plenty of good places to get shrimp and grits in Savannah.

Right.

Or, you know, things like that.

and I, to me, like to be a local restaurant, we had to provide something for locals.

Right.

I didn't want to compete.

This was just me as I was thinking about it.

Like, there's a place in Savannah called the Crystal Beer Parlor that I still go to two, three nights a week.

Right?

It's like I eat their food there.

I, when I go to the Grey, or when I go to Common Thread, which is a place that just opened in Savannah or in the last couple of years, it's like, that is expanding the conversation of what Southern food is and what food cooked in the south is, and I think that I didn't have that vocabulary to be able to say, expand the conversation of food made in the South until I met Mashama.

But that became the thing that was very exciting to us, you know, like, let's have, let's make the conversation broader.

<Holly> and whenever you began this whole journey, opening a restaurant, you didn't even know the terminology of what it meant to plate food.

<John O.> Right.

>> Right?

<John O.> Yeah.

<Holly> And.

<John O.> I thought only pretentious people said that.

<Holly> So, you know, and you're talking about risk after risk after risk, but then you put it all in the book and it's like you're giving out the secret sauce to these people.

Why do you want to share what made it so successful?

<John O.> Oh, I mean, the, the only thing that made it successful is hard work.

Right.

There is no secret sauce.

The secret sauce is outwork everybody.

Right.

And, don't give up.

And, you know, so, and I think that's really what the story of the book is.

It's like, don't give up on the building when they're screwing it up.

Don't give up on the food that you believe in.

Don't give up on the relationship that is getting you there.

and there's, you know... we had something go down this weekend where I talked to Mashama, like we had, you know, some bad things staff-wise.

and I said, God, it makes me want to sell everything she said, you always say that.

You've been saying that for nine years.

<Holly> Here he goes again.

<Mashama> Yeah.

>> Talk about risk.

I mean, you certainly took one too.

This is absolutely such an unlikely partnership and yeah.

That's, that's part of what the book's about.

and for you to make that move and just give it all up and, and take this risk.

<Mashama> I think like my motto is a little bit of yes and you know, like I kind of go with the flow, but I also really believe in myself and I think that I add something to the conversation.

and that's why I'm just so adamant about not necessarily making an Italian food because it didn't feel authentic.

So, but it felt fine because we were traveling together and Italy was a place that we traveled together.

So it made sense.

and I just wanted, I wanted to view Southern food from a different perspective, but I wanted it to be organic and unique and really showcase the ingredients, you know, because really a lot of restaurants really are focused around celebratory foods.

Right?

Special occasion foods, but you can't live a life off of special occasion foods.

You need a little bit of pause in between that and some healthiness in between that.

and I wanted to show that southern food could be healthy, it could be rich, it could be, you know, simple.

So.

>> What was it about the partnership?

Do you?

Was there a defining moment that made you say that, yes?

I'm sure you had probably some friends and family question <John O.> That's a good question.

<Mashama> I think it was the building.

Yeah.

I think that, you know, when we first met, we met in an office in New York City.

He pulled out these blueprints and he was like, there was a bazillion seats everywhere.

and he had all these plans because he, he has been working with the design crew and the contractors for a couple of months before that, and I was like, there's no way I can do this.

I'll just go down and take a look at it, because it was in a segregated bus station and I really wanted to see that.

And I think it wasn't until I stepped into that building that I believed that I could do it.

and then I thought I didn't, I didn't ask for permission.

I just sort of like went with it.

<Holly> Here we go.

<Mashama> Yeah.

I don't think I ever went back after I saw the building and was like, well, I think maybe it was sort of like, okay, so I'm going to do this.

and I was in contact with my brother the whole trip, which is odd because we don't really, we were close, but we don't talk often.

So for me to talk to him while I'm on a vacation or something like that, or on a work trip was kind of bizarre, but we sort of talked the whole time and I think he was there for me when I was sort of like talking through the process of logistically how this was going to work.

and he just kind of listened and I just was like, all right.

So when I got back to New York, I knew that I was going to do it.

Yeah.

<Holly> Okay.

We're, sadly wrapping up.

I can't believe it already, but in terms of writing, are you done with that part?

<Mashama> I am for now.

Yeah, I am for now.

He's not.

<John O.> No.

<Mashama> He wants to write tommorrow.

<Holly> What's next?

<John O.> Well, I'm actually, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to probably write fiction actually.

I started when I was younger writing fiction and, and may go back to doing something that, you know, uses all the experiences I've had...this like, kind of crazy life, so, you know, and do things like this and, and I think that there's a lot of fodder there to tell a good story.

Yeah.

<Mashama> Yeah.

I think if there's anything next, I think they expect it as maybe a cookbook, you know, but, <Holly> and I love the recipes within.

Very cool.

<Mashama> I think that would be probably the next logical step.

<John O.> Yeah.

<Mashama> Yeah.

<Holly> Sounds good.

<John O.> But it won't be a cookbook, knowing Mashama won't be a normal cook.

<Holly> A normal cook.

<John O.> Yeah.

<Holly> No.

With you two, I can say it's not going to be normal.

I already know that.

<John O.>She'll be, I wrote a cookbook and it turned into the Iliad.

(laughing) <Holly> Thank y'all so much for coming to Beaufort.

It's been such a pleasure talking to both of you.

I wish we could go longer and thank you everyone for joining us here on By the River.

I'm your host, Holly Jackson.

We hope to see you back right here soon.

Major funding for By the River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina for more than 40 years.

The ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.

Additional funding is provided by the USCB Center for the Arts Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB and the Pat Conroy Literary Center.

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