♪ MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: We are living in a time of great change, and it's critical for us to come together as one human family, so that all of our grandchildren, many greats into the future, will be able to enjoy life here on Mother Earth.

♪ May Rematriated Voices create space within your heart and mind to join with Indigenous thought leaders and allies.

We've been brought here together for a reason, and it's up to all of us to figure out why.

♪ Welcome to "Rematriated Voices".

I'm your host Michelle Schenandoah, Wolf Clan member of the Oneida Nation of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy.

Matrilineal men are men who stand empowered alongside empowered women.

They're able to express their masculinity without diminishing a woman's voice or her autonomy.

On today's episode, I'm joined by Chief Spencer Lyons of the Onondaga Nation Hawk Clan, Chief Brennen Ferguson of the Tuscarora Nation Turtle Clan, and Neal Powless, member of the Onondaga Nation Eel Clan.

♪ MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: I'm so excited to be here with the three of you, and I'm here with three of Haudenosaunees finest, sincerely, I mean that, you were supposed to laugh.

BRENNEN FERGUSON: We knew you were serious.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: No, it's really wonderful.

Actually, Im joined today with my husband, Neal Powless, and with Onondaga Hawk Clan Chief Spencer Lyons and Tuscarora Turtle Clan Chief Brennen Ferguson.

Nya:weh for being here today, I'm really grateful to have this conversation of what we're calling matrilineal men, which the three of you are.

You have all grown up in traditional Haudenosaunee matrilineal culture, and I am just really grateful to be able to have this time and hear from you.

So in our culture, we talk about roles and responsibilities, and I'd like to talk about the role of men.

Or actually, I'd like you to talk about the role of men in our culture.

And so I'm going to create that open space for you.

BRENNEN FERGUSON: I think what I think of when we are talking about men's roles, it comes down to oftentimes, you know, it's a fact that men are, you know, physically stronger than women.

And the question is, what are we going to do with that strength?

So that's one thing that I've always been taught is that, you know, we're supposed to be using that strength, which was something that has been given to us by Creation to protect our families and to take care of our families, and that it's not even supposed to be a thought that comes across your mind to use it to abuse your family, your wife or your children.

And to me, that's what I think of, of Haudenosaunee masculinity is having the, you know, the awareness that you have the strength, but also the understanding and the compassion of using it right MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: What is masculinity, what would be Haudenosaunee masculinity?

BRENNEN FERGUSON: That's a hard question.

I guess you can answer it a bunch of different ways.

The way I think about it is, again, using our effort and our strength to kind of, reinforce or enforce the will of the families.

So, you know, when clan mothers make a decision or even the women in our family that masculinity is again, having the self-control and the humbleness to go with that decision and to do what you can to help support whatever that decision is.

NEAL POWLESS: As a lacrosse player, it's extremely physical and demanding.

It's extremely aggressive.

A lot of times.

And so, for the expression of that, it's also learning about how to control and manage that expression of aggression and learning how to kind of really toe that line.

It's a fine edge, right?

It's like a nice edge.

It's really sharp.

And there's a moment when you can take it too far.

And you have to understand what managing that spaces and understanding how to utilize that expression, right.

Knowing that, especially in Onondaga, you have a lot of the leadership that are chosen by the women, and the women are watching how they play the game and how they conduct themselves and how they protect their teammates, how they protect their family, how they give of themselves for the greater good instead of just focusing on themselves as individuals.

And so when you really think about that expression of what does it mean to be that, it's all of those things, it's the fight.

It's the offense, it's the defense, it's the defense and the the maneuvering around that space and sometimes pushing the person you're competing against to respond to that.

And so it's understanding that there is a balance between aggression and understanding that balance between control and how you manage that.

And so I think whether it's on the sports field and in lacrosse or within the community or as a leader, like these two gentlemen here or any other space in the home, you have to find that fine line of balance, understanding that your your guiding principle is for all, and that your job is to protect all, right?

For the good of all, right?

That we put our minds together as one thing with the similar goal.

SPENCER LYONS: I really like both the responses.

And for myself, I kind of go back to the cultural teachings and thinking about the original instructions that I heard an elder describe, how men should be.

And in the culture we refer to our elder brother, the sun as Hosgeñägehdagonah like he's the big man, deshedwanohe:khwa, our elder brother, the sun.

And that we should be like him, that he's never relenting in his duties and what he provides.

And that the elder brother, the sun, every single day, he does what he needs to do to bring - to fulfill his duties And thinking about like both the responses and like, men are supposed to emulate that.

And we're supposed to be protectors, providers.

But that goes back to kind of what Neal was talking about.

Sometimes we're protecting compassion or love, or we need to be able to provide that too.

And so there is that balance within what exactly is needed and asked for us and to find that balance and make sure that we're providing that for the people, for all of our people, because we're such a communal people.

And we think about all of our gifts and who we are is supposed to support the greater good of our communities in general and our people in general.

So were always using these instruments, using these stories, using things like lacrosse as an instrument to hone ourselves, and that should be making us greater people, being just a good person in order to provide that back to our communities.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Yeah.

It's really wonderful to hear in each of your responses there's such an element of listening and really like gauging your behavior and looking out to, you know, the natural world, knowing also that there's others who are watching your conduct.

So, you know, speaking of roles and responsibilities, which you've you've talked about a little bit, you know, what are the roles and responsibilities of men and maybe even highlight some of those of women.

And where do we receive those instructions, right?

SPENCER LYONS: For me, I think about these things and talking about women and highlighting - theyre the main bosses.

Like, for me, that's like - in Onondaga Ganakdagweñniyogeh, we don't start ceremony until we get confirmation from the clan mothers.

They give us the nod to say okay, now.

And they say, and I've heard people like my great Uncle Oren talk about well if you want to know who holds true power in a civilization or society, it's the people that can call for war.

And even in that there's instances through historical documentation to say, well, they would always refer back to the women, whether they would allow the men to go out on what they would call a campaign or to leave the village.

And so that's who holds true, like true power.

But even that word, gatsatsdeñhsä, what we say in the language “power,” we're always filtering that through the lens of colonization and civilization.

What does that mean?

Because it means something different in the language us culturally than it means like authority or power, the way that it's used on the outside.

And so we're wrestling with these terms.

And so for a second language learner like myself, these are things that I have to take into consideration in the evolution of who we are as people.

Because the other part of it is I always try to look at the humanity like what happened to people through the evolution of those times, what was - what were people feeling and going through, through the coming of the Great Law of Peace, through the coming of things, staving off assimilation and [speaking Onondaga], and another strong one is [speaking Onondaga], is the responsibilities of the woman that means that she's going about the fire and people have has misused this idea, but in our culture when they say [speaking Onondaga], a fire, they're talking about all of those original instructions.

All of those clan families have a fire.

All of those people in the councils have a fire.

And so when they refer to her responsibility, going about the fire, that's like overlooking the entire village, the entire community, and everything about who we are, who we are, and what we call Haudenosaunee, everything that makes up Haudenosaunee is what she's overseeing when referring to the fire.

The term fire for the Haudenosaunee is a highly political term, and that even shows up in our history with colonial and imperial entities when they say places like Pennsylvania and the wampum, they say, we're gifting this land to the Haudenosaunee for them to have a place to put down their fire.

And they're referring to this relationship, this government to government relationship in recognition of what fire means.

And so all of those teachings - like, we the men are conductors of ceremony, but it's only because the women have decided that it's become time to do ceremony.

We might be the one speaking and doing the speaking, but it's them overseeing that it's all kept straight and kept true and kept right.

BRENNEN FERGUSON: So not to echo anything that Spencer brought up, but, you know, I agree with all those good points that he made, but I'm thinking about, you know, this question has been brought up, you know, time and time again, especially in different Confederacy circles and in particular, the Great Law of Peace committee.

And people are always coming to the committee and like, almost demanding like a list of roles and responsibilities and what I've seen time and time again is our elders, that are on the committee, some of them are still with us, some of them have passed.

They repeatedly, are hesitant to do that.

And what they say instead is instead of focusing on this prescription of roles, what are roles that we all have, you know, we're at a place in time where there's so much work to be done that there's roles that everybody can fill and, you know, learning language, learning ceremonies, being involved in your community, being a helping hand to your family, all these things, they always bring those up first because those are responsibilities that we all have and how we can all contribute.

NEAL POWLESS: I'm inspired by what they both said in that Spencer talked about when these messages came to us, we had forgotten what our original instructions were.

And so what's going on in those times, in those spaces when we forgot.

It's - they're singular.

They're focused on individual.

Animals do the same things.

If you look at nature, there's an ecosystem and a symbiosis of how they all work together.

Even different animals will work together in that space to make that area flourish.

And oftentimes humans come in and ruin that ecosystem and destroy that relationship that all of those different beings have with each other.

And those agreements that they made with each other.

And so for me, understanding those responsibilities and those roles is for us to also maintain a relationship with all of those members within that ecosystem and not to destroy it.

And the same thing goes for our family, our community.

So it's not just about our roles and responsibilities as humans among humans, but it's also our role and responsibilities as a member of Mother Earth and within those ecosystems of all of those beings that make that up.

Because without those beings doing their thing and doing their responsibilities and their original instructions, we no longer exist.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: In just kind of, you know, we're talking about masculinity, so it's not about the way you shake your hips when you do, you know, the smoke dance, right Like - or maybe it is, I don't know, right?

[laughter] SPENCER LYONGS: A component.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Yeah, right?

Yeah.

The way you, you know, play lacrosse and, you know, show your, you know, your arms or whatever it might be.

Right.

But how has colonization changed, you know, the understandings of men, masculinity for the Haudenosaunee?

SPENCER LYONS: Automatically my mind kind of goes to back in contact and we're thinking about material culture and understanding the relationship to the natural world, impacts of those relationships with those colonial entities.

The coming of muskets, the coming of brass kettles and all of those things that at one time Haudenosaunee had been connected so close to the earth and everything in the natural realm.

And to see that change, like no longer are we thinking that you have to now shoot an animal with or take an animal, harvest an animal with a bow and arrow.

But then you get a musket.

And what does that do to all the traditional teachings?

What does that mean that you don't have to have an intimate relationship or understanding to the land or those animals to know that where they are?

And there - it seems to me like there's a trickle effect that happens, that takes place and it tumbles very rapidly.

If we think about the evolution of people in civilization and how much time that really takes, and then to introduce something like that and just have this rapid change within Haudenosaunee culture, and for that to almost destabilize our understanding - and I would say destabilize.

But at the same time, the things that I see is that our teachings have existed and stood against assimilation and colonization.

And there's been instances in, again, looking at the humanity of civilization itself and as people and for them to be able to hold on to our teachings and to be able to pass that down from generation to generation, and it still means something for us today to call ourselves Haudenosaunee, it still means something to be able to call ourselves [speaking from Onondaga], somebody from Onondaga.

And knowing that that now is our turn as a generation to make sure that what's being passed down is going to sustain for the next generations, and to make that meaning, and to face today's challenges, whether it's assimilation, colonization, that was phased out, they looked that in the face and they were able to sustain and to a point where I can say those words and they mean something to our people.

So that's part of that, is we have to make sure that we're meeting today's challenges, understanding that those have to be able to sustain all of the principles and values of calling ourselves Haudenosaunee, and Ongweh'onweh, are still passed down.

And we have to know like that that is alive, that part of being human is a living part of culture.

Our culture is alive and we - it's our responsibility now to make sure that it lasts in the future.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Yeah.

You're actually reminding of a story that I learned from a Pueblo elder, and she was telling me about how that, you know, the the women would grind the corn and that people just to kind of make the process go a little bit faster, started to put it into a blender.

And so more recently, there's been this trend to come back to putting it on to the grinder again.

And, she said that what became really evident was that there's all these songs, right?

And words that go along with coming in that process of, of grinding the corn and that when they made that switch to putting it in the blender, then it's like the songs were not being sung, the words were not being spoken, right?

And so I'm thinking about like what you're talking about with, you know, just the element of going hunting, right?

From learning how to make, you know, your own bow and arrow and all the teachings that you would receive from the men, from your uncles, your grandpas, your brothers, whomever it might be right to teach you all that goes into that, because it's not just making something to kill an animal, but yet there's this whole process and a teaching and a, and an understanding that is imbued right into all of it, right, from the beginning proces of making the element to, you know, just full circle to being able to feed and provide for the family or your community, right?

BRENNEN FERGUSON: I think it would be easy to point at any any part of our society today, and we could analyze how it's been affected by, colonization and the patriarchy.

But the obvious one to me that I think of, you know, quite a bit, especially when I watch like, like young teenagers and how they interact with each other.

I can remember, in my community and hearing the guys older than me, you know, the way that they would talk about girls and, you know, it was really disrespectful.

And we don't realize it at the time because we're young and we're learning.

And so you hear it in the locker room, you hear it at school, you hear it, you know, from your family and you just accept that that's probably reality.

But then there's a huge contrast when we're in longhouse and we hear the way that, you know, the the power of women is described and when they talk about how the Creator cherishes, has a really high regard for women because of their specific duties.

And then the speaker, this male speaker will say this, you know, that the speak- that the Creator highly values all women, and then all the men will agree.

But then in those conversations, again, you know, it's a different story.

And so I think a huge thing that we could do today that would make a big impact is taking the time to teach our young men how to, you know, live like we believe that teaching and to teach them, you know, that the way that they're hearing their friends talk about girls is inappropriate and that it's just straight up wrong.

And educate them on what our own teachings say about women and how they can live their lives as if they do agree that women are as valuable as we were saying they are.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Yeah, yeah.

So each of you were raised in traditional Haudenosaunee communities.

And what were you taught about how to treat women and how does that differ from what you see?

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: My great grandmother was a clan mother at one time, and all her best friends were clan mothers.

And my mother was a home health aid and - who took care of elders.

So I actually was fortunate enough to find myself in spaces where there were a lot of strong Indigenous women, but a lot of elder teachings, too.

I grew up down the road from another clan mother, and I was friends with their grandchildren.

And so everything in our culture, we say, starts at home.

And it's true, like, I'm the oldest of four.

I have two younger sisters.

My mom brought us up in traditionally in the longhouse and all the teachings that go with that.

I was talked to and taught by a lot of elder men and elder women.

And it's kind of true, it's exactly - well, it is true what Brennen had talked about before and this difference how we go to ceremony and we say, like, this is how it's supposed to be.

And these are all the teachings that are how we're supposed to act as a human being, as a man.

And then when we leave, that's not what we see.

That's not the reality that we're seeing.

And I myself, like, I was always taught to never put your hands on a woman and to always respect them, respect their voices and their choices, and that's, sadly, because of... because of the things that happened on the reservation life, and I look at, just recently a lot of the - and when I say recent the last couple of years and how much data is being shared about the missing murdered indigenous women and all the reality of indigenous women's existence, and this is on territory and off territory.

It's very disturbing because I was taught that, and I always tried to carry myself with that in mind is how to be and how to talk to them and how to respect them.

And then it's true.

Like you have those friends, you have those uncles, you have those people that talk a way that isn't appropriate or might not be appropriate, or things that become so normalized on reservation, on territory that are toxic.

They're not healthy.

And so that's the responsibility of all of us as Ongweh'onweh people, both men and women is, how do we break that cycle?

Where do we break that cycle?

Do we have the bravery?

Do we have the courage to step up and take action to actually break those cycles?

And that's - thats our reality as Ongweh'onweh people, I think where we're at as a society.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Yeah.

I was really fortunate to be able to sit in on a conversation with three other men, Neal being one of them as well.

And we were having this discussion about violence that happens and how even in spaces where, you know, whether it's locker room talk or, you know, lacrosse is such a big you know, it's such a part of who we are.

And, you know, yet sometimes in the locker rooms that the conversations around women, right, can can be very degrading.

And, you know, what does it take to change that?

You know, and I know that the culture is shifting, not just for Haudenosaunee, but just kind of generally for mainstream as well, being more mindful of women, being more mindful about violence perpetuated against women, right.

And being able to change those narratives.

And one of the interesting things that I learned was that it actually is really challenging for men to be able to be, like you said, to have courage, to be brave enough in one of those spaces, to say, hey, you know, this is not how we're going to talk about women today, because that - there - it could be, there could be some serious consequences, physically, for the person who speaks up that way.

NEAL POWLESS: So, I know I don't look it, but I am, slightly different age generation than these two, and in my younger years as an athlete and I - also going to longhouse, I heard those things about women and how you talk to women and in my house, how I was supposed to speak to my mom and to my sister and, and how those things transpire and the authority within the household, in the community and also elders teaching me those things.

And then I go and play sports, and I have a coach saying different things, or I had other parents, in the car on the ride saying different things or talking different ways, or then even hearing things in music and in TV and social, you know, in social spaces.

Socially, I was being introduced to media that was completely saying a completely different thing.

And so as a kid, I have to be authentic in my Haudenosaunee manliness to say, yeah, that impacted how I interacted with women when I was younger, you know, and I have to like he said, be brave enough to say, yeah, maybe I was not one of the greatest people at another time in my life, but now I have to do all those things and extra to be a defender of those things, to make those changes, to be the brave one, to stand up and say, yeah, maybe I wasn't perfect, but now, not that I'm trying to hold someone to a higher standard than I would hold myself, but be the example now for myself, for others.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: That is a principle that we're taught as Haudenosaunee is making things right.

So, I'm just curious, you know, how would a man, you know, make things right, who might be in a position where he's caused harm to to another?

There's an equal trauma that hap I do a lot of work in this this stuff, right, with healing in my current role, you know, as an ombuds who's working with conflict every day.

And so I lean in a lot on the Great Law, and one piece of that, which is about grief, we use the word condolence when we install our leaders that they go through a condolence.

And that's about grief.

We actually have 15 stages.

So it's a lot more eloquent than the Kubler-Ross grief model that has six, right?

We evolve that understanding of the process of grief and healing through that that journey.

And it's more than just physical.

It's mental, it's emotional, its spiritual.

We talk about clearing your eyes so you can see, your throat so you can speak, your ears so you can hear, but it goes all the way through the body.

Your energy leave and all of the spaces, how you carry on your day, your weeks, your months, your years, how you revisit it back and forth and so making it right.

Isnt about making it right for me.

You're showing up so that you can be the protector of.

Tadodaho told us that through the first process with the Great Law.

He was terrible.

He hurt a lot of people.

And then his responsibility as the perpetrator of that was to use that same strength, to use those same abilities that he had to protect all people.

And so if men are going to show up in that space, then we have to become the protectors and provide the space as needed when and when they ask us to show up, they will tell us, ask the question, how would you like me to show up and defend you?

And I will show up and defend you in that way and do your best to do that.

That's what's making it right, because you show that youre willing to learn from that and change your behavior to a new course and become the defender of that.

If that person wants you to defend them, and you have to respect that that might not be what they want, right?

So you - but you have to be willing and open to hear what that person is experienced and how they're experiencing it and go through that journey with them.

It's not about, they have to do their thing, and I do my thing and we just go on.

There has to be some way to work on that together, and that takes a lot of bravery to go into that space and be honest and truthful.

And so men have to figure out how to heal their traumas, heal their struggles.

And it's a life journey.

It's a journey that you're on from beginning to end.

And so it never finishes.

You can only just do the best you can.

BRENNEN FERGUSON: I think, you know, when we make things right it starts with acknowledging that you've done wrong.

And I think that's a huge part of any of those processes, whether it's with your parents or a sibling or a partner that you've done wrong to and, you know, it's acknowledging that you either said something or you did something that you shouldn't have.

And I think Neal is absolutely right.

It's a two way healing process because it feels good to make right with somebody when you've done wrong.

And then it feels good to hear somebody acknowledge it when they've done wrong to you.

But to me, that's where it starts.

It starts with at least acknowledging that wrong was done.

And then the two of you can work out how you're going to move forward.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Yeah, yeah Thank you, thank you.

All three of you.

It's not, you know, it may not be easy to address, but I really appreciate that, you know, you've been very open in this way and talked about healing, right?

I mean, when we hear about masculinity and toxic masculinity that's happening out in the bigger society that surrounds us, you don't really hear too much about healing.

And I appreciate that you've addressed that, right.

It is a healing process.

It becomes one for you as a man.

It becomes healing, you know, for another person if you've harmed them, right.

And so I just I really appreciate that.

Thank you.

NEAL POWLESS: I think the perception is... the perception is, is that if you engage in that process as a man, youre weak.

And I think the thing that - about going into a space, into that to heal something, a trauma or a struggle, usually it's probably one of the hardest things you're ever going to do is to own up that you hurt somebody and to be honest and authentic with that.

And so it's actually probably one of the more stronger things that you're going to ever do.

And probably one of the hardest things that you're ever going to do is to show up in that space.

So I think it's seen as being weak and vulnerable when I actually think it's really about strength.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Yeah.

And speaking of strength, right, all three of you are fathers and you have welcomed children into this world.

And so I actually just want to ask you, you know, what is that, you know as a man, as a Haudenosaunee man what is that to welcome - like what is the teaching that you understand about children coming into this world?

And, you know, what is the role you have?

How do you welcome children into your life?

BRENNEN FERGUSON: I think the most direct way is, we have a practice of fathers literally welcoming new babies into the world.

We speak to them as if, you know, they're any other person and make them aware that they're here on earth now.

And I know when I've spoken to my children and they're born, I make sure that first I introduce them to their mother, who had just went through this huge amount of stress and hard work to bring them here.

And I tell them, you know, hopefully you'll be of good help to her and your whole family into the future.

And from there, I'll introduce this new baby to the different parts of the world and give them a little tiny bit of information about what the relationship is.

And I make sure that they hear from me that, you know, I'm their father, and I'm going to be here, and I go over who their family is and their clan and their nation.

So that when they first arrive here on Earth, they hear those things, and they won't be confused about it for the rest of their life.

SPENCER LYONS: It almost mirrors the Thanksgiving address.

You start with your family and their family and say, I'm your father, that's your mother, these are your grandparents, clan, family.

And then you go and work your way right through the Ganoñheñyoñ, the Thanksgiving address, like the earth and the relationship that - therell come a time they'll notice they might need medicines, and it's an introduction for that natural world also to this new spirit that's bringing here.

And this happens even before the naming process that happens in ceremony in longhouse.

But this is part of it.

Like, the clan mother should have that name, and that name should be ready for that child even at that moment.

And so that they have that and we're setting their path.

We're setting their mindset.

And then from there its, we're supposed to be always be that example for our kids, right.

And we try our best to live our - live our lives like that.

I know for myself like, it completely changed my view of the entire world, like things that I never thought I would care about or things that I never realized I did care about all of a sudden were the most important things in the world to me.

I remember driving home with my first, and me and her mom are in the car, and I was so upset with the road because the road was bumpy and I was so worried about her.

Like are these - do I have the right car seat?

And is she getting bounced around too much?

I'm like, this darn road!

And it's like, things that I thought were important to me as an individual, they really fell by the wayside and I start understanding how minuscule or maybe even like words like how petty some things were in my life and how I might have been giving my attention to the wrong things, and for - to now be a part of this child's life and for this child to have made me a father, it completely changed the world for me and my perspective of the world.

It completely changed the ideas that I had of who I was, or even what I aspired or wanted to be, or even things that I didn't even know I would become.

NEAL POWLESS: Ill say, even growing up in a traditional family, in a traditional household, we didn't talk about that kind of ceremony for the kids.

So when my kids were born, I didn't do it, right.

And for me, it's like, I wish I did, right?

I wish I knew that at that time.

So, you know, I'm sure there's indigenous people watching this like, oh, man, I didn't know that.

Or why didn't I do that?

Right?

And it's okay, because I was still able to infuse thought processes, Indigenous Haudenosaunee thought processes to my kids as young kids as they grew up.

I understood my relationship foundationally with them because I understood the ceremony, the connections, the conversations with those things.

So while I didn't have that conversation on the first day, I did have those conversations throughout the duration of their young childhood, and so I can look back on it and say, yeah, I didn't do that, but I did okay, you know, and I can still talk to them today and talk to them about it, and share the knowledge, right, what you do with the knowledge is what you decide to do with the knowledge once you have it, right.

But if you don't have that knowledge in that moment, that's also okay, too.

We're survivors of genocide, all four of us sitting here.

We're the ancestors of survivors of genocide.

And sometimes we forget things.

Sometimes different families didn't pass all those things down, and sometimes they didn't get to you.

And that's okay.

We have to be able to forgive ourselves for those moments and not hold on to that energy and say, oh my gosh.

But once you know it, then you have a responsibility to give it on to this next generation.

So then they can pass it on from that point on.

So I know that eventually my kids, when they have children, will understand what that means and what their role within that process and that journey can be after that.

So yeah, I didn't do it.

I didn't get to do it.

But certainly it also changed my life monumentally.

I certainly made different decisions in my lifetime based on that experience.

And it guided my choices, even though it was in the middle of a professional sports career.

It provided its own journeys and struggles.

And at the same time, informed me as a human being who I want to be.

And so, yeah.

So it's very powerful to kind of understand that you have that opportunity when this spirit comes through that channel and arrives nine months later in your hands, what do you do with it?

You know, what is your responsibility now at this point, moving forward that will impact you for the rest of your life?

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Yeah.

Feminism can be seen in direct opposition to patriarchy and masculinity.

But...from your perspective, how is rematriation different?

BRENNEN FERGUSON: From what I see in, you know, in my own community and then also knowing you and the work that you guys do, when I think of like, Western feminism, oftentimes it's, you know, they frame as being equal to men or they frame it as, you know, women can do the same work that men can do or things along those lines.

And from what I know in my community and what I've witnessed as - during my time as a leader, I meet with my clan mother pretty regularly, about once a week, and shell bring a few helpers with her, and we'll just go over nation topics, family topics, clan topics, and just have a discussion about it.

And sometimes I bring my own helpers as well, and what I've noticed is that, you know, it's true that men and women think differently.

Not that - and not to say that men think better than women, or women think better than men, you know, it's just we simply view the world differently, we have different experiences and that, you know, contributes to our own thinking.

And bringing those two different types of thinking together to both contribute equally to the end result or the decision making, I feel like that - that's how I view kind of the work of your company here as reasserting that process of bringing the thinking of men and women together equally.

NEAL POWLESS: Rematriation and rematriated spaces are about returning to the source of Creation, the source of mother.

And they're associated with and related to the moon and the water.

And those are the things that inform women's and women's process.

And Spencer talked earlier about the sun and how were formed by the sun and fire, right.

He talked about fire and the value of fire and the importance of fire, and that we both have to cultivate that.

And we can certainly think about times where if you have too much fire, you evaporate all the water and water ceases to exist in that space.

And that's not a healthy space.

And if you have too much water, you extinguish that fire.

And that is also not a healthy space.

And so understanding that rematriation is about finding and acknowledging that balance between fire and water, between women and men, and between all of the ecosystems around us.

And that that balance is about understanding how they work together, how heat and water, they work together, and how they have to coexist to have a healthy ecosystem.

And they have to find that balance.

And so for me, rematriation and rematriated spaces absolutely have a space for men and they require that men show up in those spaces and participate in that process to evolve that ecosystem so it's a healthy space.

If it's just women or just women's power, then there's not equality, then it's not going to be a healthy space.

They have to have those equal forces working together in unison.

SPENCER LYONS: For me, being a second language learner and a student of culture, a student of history and understanding and when I heard rematriation even using as a term, I think about revitalization, language revitalization, cultural revitalization, and how that balance needed to be reclaimed and being brought up the way that I was brought up to see how sometimes things were swayed in one direction or the other.

And I, I really supported that idea.

And I do support that idea of rematriation, because for me, that isn't necessarily just a strictly feminine term.

For me, it's a cultural term because of the way that I was brought up, the way that I understand who I am as a Haudenosaunee person, and how we understand the matrilineal society.

And so it isn't strictly feminine, and it isn't strictly masculine, but this balance and a reclamation of these voices and a reclamation of understanding our responsibilities as people, and that's what I see is happening in the work from rematriation and the group as an organization is to step back into these spaces and reclaim certain spaces, but at the same time, never neglect, because at the end of the day, Haudenosaunee is Haudenosaunee, and at the end of the day, being Haudenosaunee is being Ongweh'onweh, being a real person.

And everything in our culture is just really simple and practical about being respectful and being a good person.

It's like really simple and really practical and how we move and how we need to be able to move as Haudenosaunee people into todays balance with outside culture, like, yeah, we do need to reclaim those spaces for ourselves, as Haudenosaunee people, and I don't think that is exclusive coming from - I see that being understood from an organization like Rematriation, and I respect and I appreciate that as revitalizing and being a part of that effort into re-strengthen and making sure those teachings are strong for future generations.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Where do two-spirit and non-gender conforming people fit within the world view of the Haudenosaunee?

BRENNEN FERGUSON: I think as we've talked, you know, this afternoon, we can acknowledge that there's so much work to be done, with - language work, ceremony work, you know, this whole process of learning and also unlearning some things and going back to, you know, where we're supposed to be as Haudenosaunee.

And that work is real.

You know, we have hired people to learn language.

We have hired people to revitalize any number of practices in the arts, in agriculture and all these things.

And there's so much work to go around, you know, I think that there's enough work for everybody.

So people that want to contribute to that work and what it means to be Haudenosaunee, you know, their orientation, you know, 90% of the time, or even more, It's not even a - you know, the question doesn't make any sense because there's so much work to do that anybody can help.

I'll acknowledge that in certain ceremonial instances we know that there is women's ceremonies and we know that there's men's ceremonies.

And that's kind of a different question.

And maybe we need to address that separately.

But 90% of the time, you know, the question, you know, can be answered simply that, you know, anybody can contribute to the work that needs to be done.

SPENCER LYONS: I think these conversations have been happening more and more in our communities because it's - people are finding the space to become themselves and finding the courage, like we talked about, having the courage to step in the spaces as themselves, being somebody who was taught from a very traditional aspect, I look at the language and like I had mentioned before, there's feminine roots even to the verbs and masculine roots.

When I think about two-spirit, and even this term, this term was only coined in the 70s and 80s I do believe it has some convention, in the Midwest by a Anishinaabe or Ojibwe person and they brought this idea and this term two-spirit and I think about myself is I also think about who we are fundamentally as Haudenosaunee people, and we didn't call ourselves Haudenosaunee until the founding of the Confederacy and becoming people of the longhouse under the Great Law of Peace.

Part of the principles of the Great Law of Peace are equity, inclusion and understanding that we also need diversity.

And it's so funny in stepping into my own work and some of the spaces that I work among, like academia and other colonial institutions, these three words have become buzzwords in the last like ten years or so.

And it's like, wow, all right.

You guys are finally catching up to the Great Law of Peace.

Like, this is who we are fundamentally, as Haudenosaunee people.

But when we look at - when I look at traditional teachings and when it's passed down and tied to us, I always wondered to myself, and it comes down to this conversation of nature and nurture.

I have respect for all forms of life and everybody, and like my perspective is the same what Neal shared earlier, is the bug's life and the ants life is equal to my life, and my life is equal to the trees life, is equal to the deer's life and everything that we, who we believe we are, as Haudenosaunee is in equity with the entire natural world.

And so these conversations do need to be had like Brennen was saying is like, well, how does that look?

Because if we're truly Haudenosaunee people living in equity and inclusion, then if that was the word that they enjoyed and that's how they identified themselves, then that was the role that they just did.

Where we find ourselves today is in need of having conversation and how do we find the way to peace?

Because the people that identify how they want to identify and whatever terms that is and how they want to live their life is, if they're not in peace, then that's not fair.

That's not just, that's not how we are as Ongweh'onweh people, as Haudenosaunee people, and we need to recognize that, that everybody has that right and responsibility to create peace among our communities.

If that means having conversation in order to make that fit, I feel like it's just so simple as just as much as it's complicated maybe because of how mainstream culture has influenced a different generation, our elder generation that currently is the leadership in the Haudenosaunee country.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Yeah.

NEAL POWLESS: When someone has a gift, you find space for it.

Because if you're in a community and it's an ecosystem, you find a way for that gift to support the community.

And so I think that's really what the conversations need to be if we're going to get in that space and talk about what those things are and what that means is how do those gifts then support the community and help lift us all up?

And I think it goes beyond just sexual orientation.

There are many different things that our communities are doing within themselves, where we could certainly sit dow and have conversations about how can we be... living into the space of inclusion that we say that we are?

And then let's think about how were including a lot of different things within our culture that we've tended to push away as other.

And how do we turn that process and look back inward and say, yes, let's include you in this conversation.

Let's find a seat and a space for you and a role for you to share your gifts and participate within this ecosystem so that we are stronger together, as opposed to pushing you out and being less than because we can't find a space for you.

MICHELLE SCHENANDOAH: Id like to bring our conversation, you know, full circle and to ask you, what is the most important lesson that you believe people can learn from the Haudenosaunee about living in a matrilineal culture?

NEAL POWLESS: I think that for me, it's understanding that anyone, including men, does not need to be afraid of women's inherent power and authority of creation.

We all came into this space through Mother.

All life is birth and comes through Mother.

And so if we are going to acknowledge that inherent power and gift, then we acknowledge where we come from, our source, our creation space.

And in order to be in our best self, we have to understand that authentic, inherent authority that Ive heard it many different ways from elders that have passed on, men and women, and I still hear it today with different ones and different ways of saying it.

But it all kind of says the same thing, that when you acknowledge creation and you acknowledge source, it provides for you the same way Mother provides for you, the same way Creation provides for you.

And so sometimes, some people don't have that space, but they find the support of a community that helps us.

So there's many different definitions of what that can become, but it's the ecosystem that supports it.

BRENNEN FERGUSON: I think - well, just thinking about my own experience, at Tuscarora and the way my clan mother and I have worked things out of how we, you know, progress work, and oftentimes we bring it back to our clan.

And it's a really good feeling, especially when the young mothers bring their kids to our clan meetings, because then they're seeing this and they get to experience it.

And not only that, but at the end of our clan meetings or, you know, the last thing we do before closing, as we go around and we give everyone a chance, if they have anything else to say or any last comment or anything they want to bring up for future discussions, everybody has a chance to talk.

And that includes the kids.

And, you know, it's pretty rare for the kids to talk.

Usually they just hide behind their mom or they'll just say pass or something like that.

But at least they know that they have the option to speak.

And so I think that's something that, you know, American society could really benefit from is if they embrace the voice of everybody.

We see it a lot, you know, trying to limit people's voice or trying to limit people's - the way they do it in American society with voting, limit their access to voting.

And they think that that's going to make them powerful.

But in reality, if more people were included in the discussion and were able to voice their opinion, that it would make them a stronger society.

And I think that would be a huge takeaway.

I can speak for myself, and I'm sure for these two that we just did the best that we could today to kind of provide some insight.

But also another key takeaway is, you know, I want people, like we had said through the discussion, to take the time to address those young boys and those teenage boys and try to give them the information to put them on a good path.

We see so many young people get lost at that time in their lives.

And that's more than just their relationship to women, but, you know, the relationship to themself and their relationship to their family and if you're one of these people or anybody, you know, always remember to have compassion for yourself, too.

You know, I know that, you know, and when I was young, I made mistakes in my relationships and, you know, I said things or that, you know, I had to apologize for.

And, you know, that's part of the process of learning and unlearning to be a better person and to be a better Haudenosaunee person, for sure.

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