BOSTON," SENATOR ELIZABETH WARREN JOINS ME ON HER NEW BOOK "PERSIST';" ABOUT CHALLENGES FACED AND POSSIBILITIES SHE ENVISIONS, FROM HER PRESIDENTIAL BID, TO THE ROLE OF GENDER IN AMERICAN POLITICS, AND HER CONTINUED WORK ON THE THINGS FOR WHICH, SHE'S GOT A PLAN!

THEN, LATER, A LOOK AT THE KIND OF NON-TRADITIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE-- UNIVERSAL PRESCHOOL, FREE COMMUNITY COLLEGE, COMPREHENSIVE PAID LEAVE-- AT THE HEART OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S BIG INFRASTRUCTURE PUSH.

REPUBLICANS WANT TO KEEP THE FOCUS ON ROADS AND BRIDGES INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL'S ROSABETH MOSS KANTER SAYS BIDEN'S GOT IT RIGHT.

SHE JOINS ME.

AND FINALLY, THE UNFORGETTABLE MOTHER'S DAY PHONE CALL ONE LOCAL MOM GOT FROM HER SON.

♪♪♪♪ >> Braude: WITH NEARLY 3 MILLION PEOPLE NOW FULLY VACCINATED IN MASSACHUSETTS, AND MORE THAN 4 MILLION, OR NEARLY 60% OF THE POPULATION, EXPECTED BY THE BEGINNING OF NEXT MONTH, THE STATE IS MOVING FORWARD ON THE NEXT STOP ON THE ROAD TO NORMALCY.

BEGINNING TODAY, AMUSEMENT PARKS AND THEME PARKS CAN REOPEN FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE PANDEMIC BEGAN, WITH UP TO 50% CAPACITY.

ROAD RACES, AND OTHER LARGE OUTDOOR ATHLETIC EVENTS, AND MEDIUM AND HIGH-RISK SPORTS TOURNAMENTS, WHATEVER THAT MEANS, CAN RESUME WITH SAFETY PRECAUTIONS.

STADIUMS, ARENAS, AND BALLPARKS CAN NOW GO UP TO 25% CAPACITY.

INDOOR SINGING PERFORMANCES CAN RESUME, AND STORES ARE NO LONGER REQUIRED TO SET ASIDE DEDICATED "SENIOR HOURS."

THOUGH BOSTON IS DELAYING MOST OF THESE ROLL-BACKS FOR AT LEAST THREE WEEKS, NOT INCLUDING THE STADIUM AND ARENA CAPACITY INCREASES, WHICH DID TAKE EFFECT TODAY.

NATIONWIDE, NEARLY 115 MILLION, THAT'S CLOSE TO 35% OF THE POPULATION HAS BEEN FULLY VACCINATED AND COUNTING.

AND LATER THIS WEEK, THE F.D.A.

IS EXPECTED TO GIVE EMERGENCY AUTHORIZATION TO SOME CHILDREN TO GET THE PFIZER COVID SHOT.

>> THE EFFICACY OF THE VACCINE IN 12 TO 15-YEARS-OLD WAS ESSENTIALLY 100% AND IT WAS REALLY QUITE SAFE.

THEN, YOU WORK YOUR WAY DOWNWARD FROM 12 TO NINE-YEARS-OLD, NINE TO SIX-YEARS-OLD, SIX TO TWO-YEARS OLD.

>> Braude: AUTHORIZATION FOR KIDS OF ALL AGES COULD COME AS SOON AS EARLY NEXT YEAR.

IT'S ALL A SOURCE OF HOPE FOR MANY.

BUT PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS ARE WARNING WE MAY NEVER BE RID OF COVID-19 ALTOGETHER.

AND SO FAR, THE PANDEMIC HAS TAKEN A MASSIVE TOLL, WITH CLOSE TO 580,000 DEATHS FROM THE VIRUS IN THIS COUNTRY, SO FAR.

ONE OF THEM WAS DONALD REED HERRING, THE OLDEST BROTHER OF SENATOR ELIZABETH WARREN, WHO DIED LAST APRIL AT 86 YEARS OLD.

THEIR RELATIONSHIP IS RECOUNTED IN HER LATEST BOOK, WHERE SHE DELVES INTO SEXUAL HARASSMENT BY A FORMER BOSS, A DIFFERENT SET OF RULES ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, AND HER RELENTLESS PUSH FOR A MORE CARING, SUPPORTIVE GOVERNMENT.

THE BOOK IS CALLED "PERSIST."

SENATOR WARREN JOINED ME THE OTHER DAY TO DISCUSS.

SENATOR WEINER, IT WARREN, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AS ALWAYS.

>> THANK YOU TO BE HERE WITH YOU.

>> Braude: 70% OF REPUBLICANS WHO PERSIST IN SAYING THIS ELECTION WAS STOLEN LAST NOVEMBER, HOW DOES DEMOCRACY SURVIVE WITH THIS TOXIC LIE HANGING OVER EVERYTHING?

>>> YOU KNOW IT'S NOT JUST A TOXIC LIE HANGING OVER EVERYTHING.

IT'S NOW, THAT DONALD TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP, ARE REQUIRING PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY BEND A KNEE AND REPEAT THE WORDS OF THE LIE.

THIS IS POISONOUS TO OUR DEMOCRACY.

IT TRULY UNDERMINES EVERYTHING THAT A FULL AND FAIR DEMOCRACY STANDS FOR.

THAT YOU GET OUT, YOU VOTE, YOU DO YOUR BEST, SOMETIMES YOU WIN, SOMETIMES YOU LOSE.

I ACTUALLY KNOW ABOUT THAT.

AND THEN: WE ACCEPT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE AND WE MOVE ON.

WE DO WHAT WE CAN TO HELP THIS NATION AND WE GET READY FOR THE NEXT BATTLE.

>> Braude: BUT WE DON'T IN THIS CASE.

>> YEAH.

>> Braude: 93% VOTING RECORD WITH TRUMP WAS NOT ENOUGH FOR LIZ CHENEY TO KEEP HER POSITION IN HER PARTY.

SO HOW DOES THIS -- HOW DO WE CONTINUE LIKE THIS?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK RIGHT NOW, THAT THE WAY WE CONTINUE IS THAT WE DO THE THINGS THE NATION NEEDS, AND WANTS.

SO THINK OF IT THIS WAY: IN THE LAST YEAR, THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH TURMOIL AND CHANGE.

WE'VE HAD A PANDEMIC, A RECKONING ON RACE, AN ARMED INSURRECTION, A PRESIDENT WHO WON BY MORE THAN 7 MILLION VOTES, A RECORD.

AND WE TURNED AROUND AND PASSED A -- THE MOST AMBITIOUS, MOST PROGRESSIVE RESCUE PLAN IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

AND IT WAS WIDELY POPULAR.

JOE BIDEN STOOD UP AND DECLARED IT WAS A BIPARTISAN BILL BECAUSE IT WAS HELPFUL TO AND SUPPORTED BY DEMOCRATS, INDEPENDENTS AND REENLS.

IN OTHER WORDS -- REPUBLICANS.

IN OTHER WORDS, IN THAT SENSE YOU JUST BYPASS THE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE SO OUT OF TOUCH IN WASHINGTON.

>> Braude: WELL, WE'LL TALK IN A MINUTE ABOUT WHETHER THAT IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST.

I WANT TO WARN YOU: I LIKE POLITICS ALMOST AS MUCH AS YOU DO BUT THE PART THAT'S STAYED WITH ME SO FAR IS THE PERSONAL.

YOU TALK ABOUT BEING ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL AND SAID WELL MARTHA LOST, THAT COKELEY, HILLARY LOST, YOU DIDN'T DETACH A WAY TO PAY FOR MEDICARE FOR ALL.

ARE BERNIE SANDERS DIDN'T EITHER.

BUT I REFUSED TO SAY SEXISM WAS PART OF WHAT BROUGHT YOU DOWN.

YOU SAID IT WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH.

WHY DON'T YOU SAY TO ME IS YOU MAKE OOK TEXTBOOK CASE THAT SEXISM WAS A PART OF THIS?

>> LOOK, I GIVE AN HONEST ACCOUNT OF THE QUESTIONS I WAS ASKED, THE THINGS THAT WERE SAID, THE REPORTS THAT WERE MADE AT THE TIME.

THAT'S MY JOB, IS TO DOCUMENT THAT.

BUT AS YOU KNOW, BECAUSE YOU'VE READ THE BOOK, WHAT I CARE ABOUT IS THE CHANGE WE'RE GOING TO MAKE GOING FORWARD.

WHAT I WANT TO SEE IS, I WANT TO SEE US PASS UNIVERSAL CHILDCARE.

I WANT US TO CANCEL STUDENT LOAN DEBT, I WANT US TO PUT A WEALTH TAX IN THIS CASE.

THEY ARE NEEDED IN THIS COUNTRY.

I'M GOING TO RECORD WHAT'S HAPPENED BUT I'M GOING TO STAY IN THE FIGHT FOR THE FUTURE.

>> Braude: OKAY FINE, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE PAST BECAUSE YOU DO.

WHEN SOMEONE SAID TO YOU, WELL MARTHA LOST, HILLARY LOST, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO YOURSELF?

>> AS I SAID IN THE BOOK, I SOMETIMES WONDERED IF ANY OF THE MALE CANDIDATES GOT AQUESTION LIKE THAT.

AFTER ALL, AL GORE LOST, HUBERT HUMPHREY LOST YET NO ONE SAID, CAN A MAN ACTUALLY WIN?

BUT THIS IS WHAT PERSISTENCE IS ABOUT.

I SAY UH-HUH AND I WOULD SAY HERE'S WHAT I'M GOING TO FIGHT FOR.

BECAUSE WHAT YOU REALLY HAVE TO SHOW IS: I'M NOT GOING TO FOLD.

I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE UP.

I'M GOING TO GET BACK IN THIS FIGHT, BECAUSE THIS FIGHT WAS NEVER ABOUT ME.

THIS FIGHT IS ABOUT THE PEOPLE I'M FIGHTING FOR.

THE IDEAS I'M FIGHTING FOR.

THE POLICIES THAT WOULD ACTUALLY CHANGE LIVES.

AND I CAN'T GIVE UP.

I JUST CAN'T.

I GOT TO PERSIST.

>> Braude: I KNOW THAT BUT YOU TOLD THESE STORIES FOR A REASON.

NOT JUST FOR IT TO BE MEMOIR LIKE BUT TO MAKE A POINT ABOUT GOING FORWARD.

YOU TALK ABOUT BEING AT THE UNIVERSITY OF HOUSTON LAW CENTER, BEING SEXUALLY HARASSED, YOU CONTINUED -- BY A GUY WHO HAD A LOT OF AUTHORITY OVER YOUR WORK AND YOUR CAREER.

YOU CONTINUED TO WORK WITH HIM.

YOU STAYED IN TOUCH WITH HIM AFTERWARDS.

YOU EVEN SPOKE AT HIS FUNERAL.

IN RETROSPECT DO YOU CIGARETTE HAVING DONE THAT OR WAS IT UNWOULDUNAVOIDABLE IN THOSE TIMES?

>> NO.

I TELL THE STORY IN PART TO EXPLAIN WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE THERE IN THE MOMENT, WHAT IT'S LIKE WHEN HE CHASED ME AROUND THE TABLE.

WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE AFRAID FOR MY JOB, NOT JUST THAT JOB, BUT MISCAREER FOREVER AS I MAKE CLEAR IN THE BOOK.

THAT'S WHAT'S REALLY ON THE LINE.

THIS WAS THE MAN THAT WAS THE HEAD OF THE GROUP THAT HIRED ME, THE COMMITTEE THAT HIRED ME.

AND ONCE I WAS HIRED HE BECAME THE HEAD OF THE COMMITTEE THAT WOULD DETERMINE MY TENURE AND WHETHER OR NOT WOULD I BE ABLE TO STAY IN TEACHING.

THIS WASN'T ABOUT SEX.

I MAKE THAT VERY CLEAR.

IT'S ABOUT POWER.

AND THAT THAT POWER REINFORCED ITSELF OVER AND OVER.

YEAH, I GOT OUT OF HIS OFFICE THE NEXT DAY.

BUT -- THAT NIGHT.

BUT I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN THE NEXT DAY AND THE NEXT WEEK AND THE NEXT MONTH AND THE NEXT YEAR.

AND EVERY TIME I CHANGED JOBS, SOMEONE WOULD TELL ME: OH YEAH, AND WE CALLED HIM, AND HE GAVE US A RECOMMENDATION, TOLD US ABOUT YOUR TEACHING AND SO ON.

IT'S A REMINDER THAT THAT POWER STRUCTURE STILL CRUNCHES AROUND WOMEN.

HE USED TO CALL ME AND JUST OUT OF THE BLUE, AND HE ALWAYS CALLED ME, I ALLS KNEW WHAT IT WAS, FIRST WORD OUT OF HIS MOUTH WAS SHE WOLF, THAT'S WHAT HE CALLED ME.

THROUGH THE YEARS I GOT TO WHERE REPLY HEART WOULD SETTLE DOWN.

ONE DAY HE CALLED AND SAID HE WAS DYING AND HE WANTED ME TO SPEAK AT HIS FUNERAL.

I TOLD HIM NO, I WAS NOT GOING TO DO THAT AND HE KEPT INSISTING, HE SAID NO, I WANT YOU TO SPEAK AT MY FUNERAL.

I SAID, IF I DO I'M GOING TO TELL WHAT HAPPENED.

AND HE LAUGHED.

DO IT.

AND THAT'S WHAT I DID.

I STOOD UP.

AND I TOLD THE STORY.

AND I LAUGHED ABOUT THE STORY.

AND MADE IT CLEAR: HE HAD NO POWER OVER ME ANYMORE.

AND THAT'S HOW I SEE IT.

I TELL THAT STORY FOR WOMEN, FOR SOME MEN WHO MAY SEE THEMSELVES IT IS ABOUT POWER AND WE WILL PERSIST.

WE WILL FIGHT BACK.

>> Braude: I'M GOING TO GET TO POLICY IN A SECOND.

ONE MORE STORY THAT'S REALLY STAYED WITH ME AND THAT'S ABOUT YOUR BROTHER, DON REED HARRIGAN, A ROCK RIBBED MILITARY GUY.

I LOVE WHAT YOU SAY, EVERYTHING HE SAW ON FOX NEWS HE THOUGHT WAS TRUTHFUL.

WHAT WAS THE SENSE TO THAT?

>> EVERYTHING DHOO WAS SAID ABOUT ME.

EXCEPT THAT.

>> Braude: I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HEARD CARL CAN BERNSTEIN SAY, HE THOUGHT DONALD TRUMP'S BEHAVIOR IN TERMS OF HOW HE HANDLED COVID-19 WAS HOMOCIDAL.

I AGREE WITH THAT.

DO YOU?

>> I DO.

I DO.

PEOPLE DIED IN THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE OUR NATION HAD NO PLAN.

FOR DEALING WITH COVID.

WHEN THE CRISIS WAS UPON US, DONALD TRUMP WAS NOT EVEN THERE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GOT MASKS AND OXYGEN DISTRIBUTED.

HE WAS NOT THERE TO PUT A PLAN IN PLACE TO HELP SAVE OUR PEOPLE.

ON THE DAY MY BROTHER DIED, DONALD TRUMP WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE RESTRICTIONS FROM COVID, MEANT THAT HE COULDN'T PLAY GOLF, THAT THE GOLF COURSES WERE CLOSED.

HIS FAILURE TO PUT A PLAN IN PLACE, HIS FAILURE TO INDICATE EVEN THE SLIGHTEST HUMAN CONCERN FOR THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SICK AND DYING RESULTED IN THE DEATHS OF THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN.

AND MY BROTHER MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OF THEM.

>> Braude: SENATOR, HERE IS YOU SPEAKING AT THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION LAST SUMMER.

WE BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE SYSTEMS SO THAT INFRASTRUCTURE CAN HELP US WORK.

THAT HELPS US ALL BECAUSE IT KEEPS OUR ECONOMY GOING.

IT IS TIME TO RECOGNIZE THAT CHILDCARE IS PART OF THE BASIC INFRASTRUCTURE OF THIS NATION.

IT IS INFRASTRUCTURE FOR FAMILIES.

>> Braude: OBVIOUSLY, THE WHITE HOUSE GOT THAT MESSAGE BIG TIME.

IN MANY RESPECTS JOE BIDEN'S AGENDA IS WARREN-LIGHT.

IS IT NOT TRUE THAT YOU THINK HE'S BOLD BUT NOT BEING BOLD ENOUGH?

>> LOOK, HE HAS -- HE STOOD UP.

COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO.

ADDRESSED THE NATION AND FAWCTD ABOUT CHILDCARE AS -- TALKED ABOUT CHILDCARE AS INFRASTRUCTURE.

THAT IS BOLD.

HE SAID HE WANTS TO PUT $425 BILLION COMMITMENT FROM THIS COUNTRY INTO CHILDCARE AND EARLY CHIDE HOOD EDUCATION.

HE NEEDS 700 BILLION, I'M GOING TO KEEP PULLING FOR THAT BECAUSE WE REALLY NEED TO MAKE THIS UNIVERSAL, HIGH-QUALITY, LIFT THE WAGES OF EVERY CHILDCARE WORKER AND PRESCHOOL TACHER.

BUT IT'S VERY MUCH IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

MY JOB IS TO PULL IT ALL THE WAY THERE.

>> Braude: WELL, BUT 700 VERSUS 425, HE'S IN A DIFFERENT PLACE ON HEALTH CARE.

HE WANTS TO TAX THE WEALTHY BUT HE DOESN'T INCLUDE A WEALTH TAX.

HE WANTS TO FORGIVE $10,000 IN STUDENT DEBT.

YOU THINK 50,000 IS CRITICAL.

YOU DO BELIEVE HE'S GOT A LONG WAY TO GO, DO YOU NOT?

>> I BELIEVE HE'S TAKEN THE FIRST STEP AND THAT IS ACKNOWLEDGING WE NEED CHILDCARE, WE NEED TO CANCEL STUDENT LOANS, WE NEED TO RAISE TAXES ON THE WEALTHY.

I JUST THINK HE NEEDS TO COME A LITTLE FURTHER ON THAT AND THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO COOB ARGUING FOR AND IT'S A PART OF WH I WROTE THIS BOOK, JIM.

IT'S ABOUT PULLING MORE PEOPLE INTO THE FIGHT.

PUTTING MORE WIND IN THE SAILS.

LOOK, WHAT JOE BIDEN IS DOING IS MEETING THE MOMENT.

AND THE MORE THAT WE MAKE CLEAR AS A NATION THE KIND OF CHANGE WE WANT, THE MORE THAT JOE BIDEN IS GOING TO GET US THERE.

THAT'S WHAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE.

>> Braude: BUS JOE BIDEN, SENATOR, JOE BIDEN CAN'T GET US THERE UNILATERALLY.

YOU MAY BELIEVE, THERE IS A DISPUTE BETWEEN YOU AND THE PRESIDENT AS TO WHETHER HE CAN UNILATERALLY DO THE STUDENT LOAN STUFF.

MUCH ON YOUR AGENDA, MUCH ABOUT WHAT YOU SPEAK AT LENGTH IN THE BOOK THE POLICY RESTRICTIONS YOU CARE ABOUT REQUIRE CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL.

50 VOTES IS GOING TO BE HARD ENOUGH ON THE SENATE, 60 ON VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING IS UNREACHABLE.

I KNOW YOU SUPPORT LIMITING THE FILIBUSTER.

JOE BIDEN APPARENTLY AT LEAST AT THE MOMENT DOES NOT.

HOW DO YOU GET TO THE PROMISED PLANNED ON ANY OF THESE THINGS IF BIDEN AND JOE MANCHIN DON'T MOVE ON THE FILIBUSTER?

>> SOME THINGS WE MIGHT DECIDE TO DO THROUGH AN EXCEPTION.

WE GOT TO PROCEED VOTING, DEMOCRACY.

WE MAY GET PEOPLE TO COME ALONG WITH THAT EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO GET RID OF THE FILIBUSTER.

BUT UNDERSTAND THIS: THE FILIBUSTER HAS TO GO.

OUR FOUNDERS LOOKED AT THE QUESTION OF WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD REQUIRE A SUPERMAJORITY IN THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE IN ORDER TO PASS LEGISLATION.

AND THEY DECIDE, YES, YOU NEED IT FOR SOME THINGS, YOU WANT TO PASS A TREATY, YOU WANT TO IMPEACH A PRESIDENT YOU NEED ASUPERMAJORITY BUTTER FOR EVERYTHING ELSE, SIMPLE MAJORITY.

HOUSE AND SENATE, THAT WAS THE DESIGN FROM THE BEGINNING.

FILIBUSTER WAS USED FOR A LONG TIME, IN ORDER TO ADVANCE RACIST POLICIES.

TO PREVENT US FROM PASSING THINGS LIKE ANTILYNCHING LAWS, WE CANNOT AS DEMOCRATS GIVE MITCH McCONNELL A VETO OVER EVERY SINGLE THING WE'RE TRYING TO GET DONE.

LOOK AT WHAT JUST HAPPENED.

WE PASSED A RESCUE PACKAGE THAT IS POPULAR ACROSS THE NATION.

DEMOCRATS HAVE TO DELIVER ON THEIR PROMISES.

AND IF THAT MEANS DUMP FILIBUSTER THEN WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THAT.

BUT WE MUST DELIVER.

WE MADE PROMISES, IN 2018, IN 2020, AND IN 2021, IN GEORGIA.

WE NEED TO KEEP OUR PROMISES.

>> Braude: SENATOR WARREN, THAT IS A HELL OF A ROOM YOU'RE SITTING IN WHEREVER IT IS.

HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU TO JIM.

>> Braude: THE BOOK AGAIN IS "PERSIST."

AS WE JUST DISCUSSED, SENATOR WARREN CALLED FOR AN EXPANSION OF INFRASTRUCTURE TO INCLUDE THINGS LIKE CHILDCARE, THE BREADTH OF HUMAN SERVICES THAT HELP KEEP SOCIETY RUNNING AND HUMANS WORKING.

THAT CONCEPT IS REFLECTED IN PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN'S MULTI-TRILLION DOLLAR INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN, WHICH ADDRESSES CLIMATE CHANGE, RACIAL INJUSTICE, AND OBSTACLES TO HEALTHY EMPLOYMENT.

BUT THE VERY NOTION OF THE EXPANDED DEFINITION OF INFRASTRUCTURE IS GETTING A WHOLE LOT OF PUSHBACK FROM THE PRESIDENT'S REPUBLICAN CRITICS, WHO ARE SO FAR UNIFORMLY OPPOSING HIS PLAN.

CRITICS LIKE COLORADO CONGRESSMAN KEN BUCK, WHO TWEETED AFTER BIDEN'S RELEASE: "BRIDGES ARE INFRASTRUCTURE.

ROADS ARE INFRASTRUCTURE.

HIGHWAYS ARE INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND YET, BRIDGES, ROADS, AND HIGHWAYS ONLY MAKE UP 6% OF BIDEN'S $2 TRILLION 'INFRASTRUCTURE' PLAN.'"

BUT HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL PROFESSOR ROSABETH MOSS KANTER WRITES IN A NEW "BOSTON GLOBE" OP-ED: "THE CRITICS ARE WRONG.

INFRASTRUCTURE IS PRIMARILY A HUMAN ISSUE."

AND SHE WOULD KNOW, SHE'S WRITTEN THE BOOK ON THE SUBJECT, LITERALLY, "MOVE: HOW TO REBUILD AND REINVENT AMERICA'S INFRASTRUCTURE."

AND SHE JOINS ME NOW.

ROSABETH IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU JIM, MY PLEASURE.

>> Braude: SO FOR THOSE UNFORTUNATE ENOUGH TO NOT YET HAVE READ YOUR PIECE IN THE GLOBE.

YOU SAY TOO MANY PEOPLE VIEW INFRASTRUCTURE TOO NARROWLY IN SILOS AS COMPARED TO IS HOLISTICALLY LIKE JOE BIDEN DOES.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> IN TRANSPORTATION FOR EXAMPLE, EVERY INDUSTRY HAS ITS OWN LOBBY AND WANTS TO HAVE DECISIONS MADE.

>> ITS BEHALF WITHOUT REGARD TO WHAT'S THE BENEFIT FOR THE WHOLE COMMUNITY FOR THE CITY.

SO PLANNERS MIGHT THINK ABOUT THE WHOLE CITY, BUT THE INDUSTRY DOES NOT.

AND THE INDUSTRY HAS A LOT OF POWER.

ALSO: WE THINK OF INFRASTRUCTURE ITSELF SO NARROWLY.

FOR A LONG TIME, BROADBAND WAS NOT A WORD THE PUBLIC KNEW UNTIL THE ISSUE OF INTERNET ACCESS BECAME A REALLY BIG DEAL DURING THE PANDEMIC.

JUST AS, IN FACT, CHILDCARE HAS BECOME A REALLY BIG ISSUE.

AND IT'S IN THE SAME SHAPE.

IT'S FRAGMENTED, NOT ACCESSIBLE, IT'S NOT ORGANIZED.

THERE'S NO WAY TO FIND IT OR MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY GETS IT.

AND AT USUAL -- AS USUAL, THE PEOPLE WHO NEED THESE ASPECTS OF INFRASTRUCTURE, THE MOST LIKE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, OFTEN HAVE THE LEAST ACCESS TO IT.

>> Braude: SO WHY DON'T I BRING YOU SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T GET YOUR WORLD VIEW AND JOE JOE BIDEN'S ON THIS?

THAT WOULD BE MITCH McCONNELL, HERE HE WAS ON THURSDAY OF LAST WEEKS.

>> WELL, I'M ANXIOUS TO STOP THE BIDEN AGENDA, DEPENDING ON WHAT IT IS.

AT THE RISK OF REPEATING MYSELF, IF WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE, WE'RE VERY INTERESTED IN TALKING ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE.

THAT AMOUNTS TO ABOUT $600 BILLION DOLLARS, NOT $4.1 TRILLION.

SO I WANT TO DO BUSINESS WITH THE PRESIDENT BUT HE NEEDS TO BE A MODERATE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW MY SENSE OF THIS ROSABETH IS THAT REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS VIEW INFRASTRUCTURE SORT OF WAY, I DON'T KNOW, ANTONIN SCALIA USED TO VIEW THE CONSTITUTION, THE ORIGINAL INTENT.

I'M GUESSING THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY IS THERE HAVE BEEN MOMENTS ON WHERE THERE'S BEEN BYPARTISAN AGREEMENT ON WHAT INFRASTRUCTURE MEANS.

AM I RIGHT I HOPE?

>> I THINK YOU ARE.

RURAL ELECTRIFICATION WAS A BIG DEAL, NEW DEAL, BIG DEAL, AND ELECTRICITY SUDDENLY BECAME A NECESSITY FOR PEOPLE TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE.

IT HADN'T BEEN BEFORE THAT.

SO THE DEFINITION ALWAYS EVOLVES.

AND SENATOR McCONNELL'S WIFE HAD BEEN HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION AND EVEN IF IT'S JUST ROADS AND BRIDGES I DIDN'T SEE A LOT OF PROGRESS DURING THAT TIME.

SO YOU CAN'T SPEAK OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF YOUR MOUTH.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, THE THING THAT I DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND AND MAYBE BECAUSE WE'RE TAX AVERSE OR MAYBE BECAUSE OUR POLITICS ARE SO POLITICIZED, JUST TALKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE UNIVERSAL PRESCHOOL, VIRTUALLY ALL OF WESTERN EUROPE, THE NORDIC COUNTRIES, SOUTH KOREA, I COULD SPEND THE WHOLE SHOW LISTING THESE PLACES, VIRTUALLY ALL OF THEM UNDERSTAND THAT THAT IS PART OF WHAT THE CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE OF A COUNTRY IS.

WHY HAVE WE FALLEN SO FAR BEHIND BOTH IN THE ACTUAL WORK AND THE COMPREHENSION?

>> GREAT QUESTION.

IT'S POLITICS.

AND BY THE WAY, THAT ISN'T THE ONLY THING WESTERN EUROPE IS AHEAD OF IT IN.

THEY HAVE HIGH SPEED RAIL.

WE BARELY HAVE AMTRAK CREEPING IN THE NEED OF.

SO YOU HAVE THE -- THE NORTHEAST.

SO YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT GOVERNMENT CAN DO POSITIVE THINGS OR LET'S CALL IT PUBLIC.

THAT THE PUBLIC SECTOR CAN INVEST IN PUBLIC WORKS AND THEN WE CAN LEAVE IT TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO DO THE REST.

THAT'S HOW WE GOT THE INTERNET IN THE FIRST PLACE.

IN TERMS OF PRE-K THAT'S BEEN ON THE AGENDA FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

ALL THE EVIDENCE ABOUT EARLY CHILDHOOD LEARNING THAT'S SO IMPORTANT.

AND AFLUENT FAMILIES KNOW THAT.

THEY SEND THEIR FAMILIES TO PRIVATELY PRE K PROGRAMS, IT'S JUST THE REST OF THE SOCIETY THAT DOESN'T HAVE ACCESS.

SO IF IT'S A GOOD THING FOR THE MORE AFFLUENT MAYBE IT'S A GOOD THING FOR THE WHOLE SOCIETY.

MAYBE PEOPLE KIDS WOULD GRO UP STRONGER SMARTER AND MORE ABLE TO FIND THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT EXIST.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW IT'S LIKE WE'VE BEEN IN HIBERNATION FOR 60 PLUS YEARS.

I'M READING THE "WASHINGTON POST" THE OTHER DAY AND THEY SAY THE LAST MAJOR INFRASTRUCTURE OVERHAUL IN OUR HISTORY WAS UNDER YIENS HOUSE, DWIGHT EISENHOWER.

I SAY TO MYSELF, I ASSUME PART OF THAT IS BECAUSE TOO MANY POLITICIANS IN THIS COUNTRY ROABTSD ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IMMEDIATE GRAT -- ROSABETH ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IMMEDIATE GRATIFICATION FOR THEIR SUBSEQUENT.

MID SHOVEL READY, THAT -- IMMEDIATE SHOVEL READY, HUMAN INFRASTRUCTURE IS SHOVEL READY.

YOU IMMEDIATELY SEE THE BENEFITS DO YOU NOT?

>> I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.

IF WE WANT SOMETHING WITH AN IMMEDIATE RETURN, IT WOULD BE CHILDCARE AND BROADBAND ACCESS, INTERNET ACCESS.

HIGH SPEED ROADS, BRIDGES, THEY ARE ALL VERY LONG TERM AND UNDER YIENSEISENHOWER, WE GOT THAT BILL BECAUSE IT WAS THE DEFENSE HIGHWAY BILL.

IT WAS ALL SUPPOSEDLY ABOUT NATIONAL DEFENSE SO THAT TROOPS COULD MOVE FASTER AROUND THE COUNTRY BUT IN FACT IT WAS A SNEAKY WAY OF TALKING ABOUT BUILDING THE COUNTRY AFTER THE -- AFTER WHOORLT IF I SAY THE WAR -- WORLD WAR II, IF I SAY THE WAR PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE.

CONNECTING PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, MAKING IT POSSIBLE TO GET FROM CITY TO CITY AND IT WAS ALSO THE ERA THAT GHAIF DOMINANCE TO THE AUTOMOBILE.

>> Braude: SO DO YOU HAVE A SNEAK 80 WAY TO SELL THIS TO THE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS IN 5021 TO USE YOUR WORD?

>> SO -- IN 2021 TO USE YOUR WORD?

>> I 3HINK IT PROBABLY IS NATIONAL SECURITY, WE MAY NOT CALL IT DEFENSE ANYMORE BUT A NATIONAL SECURITY AGENDA.

FIRST OF ALL WE NEED MORE PEOPLE EDUCATED IN THE TECHNOLOGIES OF THE FUTURE IN ORDER TO DO THAT.

WE NEED CHILDCARE TO THAT MOTHERS CAN GO TO WORK, MANY OF HIGH SCHOOL ARE SKILLED IN MATH.

FATHERS CAN GO TO WORK AND ALSO SO THAT KIDS IN LEFT-BEHIND NEIGHBORHOODS CAN GET THOSE CODING CLASSES AND FIND THEIR WAY TO JOBS WHICH WILL BUILD A SECURE AMERICA OF THE FUTURE.

>> Braude: ROSABETH, SPEAKING OF THE FUTURE I ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT.

DESCRIBES THE UNITED STATES TO ME, IN TEN YEARS.

IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

>> WELL, WE'RE ALREADY TRENDING IN AN UNCOMFORTABLE DIRECTION, WHERE THE CLASS DIVIDES ARE VERY STRONG.

AND WHERE VIOLENCE IS INCREASING.

I MEAN LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED JUST THIS LAST WEEKEND.

SO IF WE DON'T DO SOMETHING GOOD THAT -- DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT, WE CAN GUARANTEE THAT OUR SOCIAL PROBLEMS LIKE GUN VIOLENCE, VIOLENCE, AND RACIAL INJUSTICE AND LEFT-BEHIND AREAS OF CITIES, ARE GOING TO GET WORSE.

IF WE DO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, I THINK THAT WE CAN GO BACK TO TAKING INFRASTRUCTURE FOR GRANTED FOR A WHITE.

BECAUSE IT WORKS.

-- FOR A WHILE.

BECAUSE IT WORKS.

>> Braude: FAIR ENOUGH MANY FROM YOUR LIPS TO HUNDREDS OF EARS I HOPE, IN THAT CAPITAL IN WASHINGTON.

ROSABETH CAN MOSS KANTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HEARING FROM YOU.

>> ABSOLUTELY JIM.

>> IF YOU FEEL LEFT OUT AND FORGOTTEN IN A RAPIDLY CHANGING ECONOMY, LET ME SPEAK DIRECTLY TO THE NEARLY 90% OF ALL THE INFRASTRUCTURE JOBS THAT THIS IS GOING TO CREATE, WON'T REQUIRE A AS YOU ALL KNOW, YESTERDAY WAS MOTHER'S DAY, AND I'M SURE MANY OF YOU CALLED YOUR MOTHERS, GRANDMOTHERS, AUNTS, FRIENDS, OR WHOEVER YOU CELEBRATE THE DAY WITH.

FORMER BOSTON MAYOR, NOW SECRETARY OF LABOR MARTY WALSH DID TOO, WITH A SPECIAL GUEST APPEARANCE FROM HIS BOSS: (PHONE RINGS) (GOES TO VOICEMAIL) >> HELLO, PLEASE LEAVE A MESSAGE AFTER THE TONE.

(BEEP) >> HEY, MOM.

IT'S JOE BIDEN AND I'M STANDING IN THE OVAL OFFICE WITH A GUY WHO SAYS THAT HE'S YOUR SON.

HE'S THE SECRETARY OF LABOR.

I'M JUST CALLING TO CHECK WHETHER THAT'S TRUE.

ANYWAY, SAY HI TO YOUR MOM.

>> HI MA, HOW ARE YOU?

>> SORRY WE MISSED YOU, MOM.

THE VICE PRESIDENT'S HERE TOO AS WELL.

>> HI MOM!

>> WE JUST WANTED TO SAY HI.

ANYWAY, IT WON'T SURPRISE YOU, HE'S DOING A HELL OF A JOB, BUT I'LL DENY HAVING SAID THAT.

ANYWAY, I'LL CATCH YOU WHEN YOU'RE HOME.

LOVE YOU, SEE YOU.

BYE BYE.

>> SHE'S PROBABLY SITTING THERE NOT ANSWERING THE PHONE.

(LAUGHTER) >> Braude: IF SHE WAS, THAT'S MY KIND OF MOTHER.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

ACTING MAYOR OF BOSTON KIM JANEY JOINS ME ON COVID RESTRICTIONS, POLICE REFORM, AND SOME SUPPORTERS ASKING THE OTHER BLACK WOMAN IN THE RACE TO DROP OUT.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org ♪ ♪