>> WE HAVEN'T REALLY FIGURED OUT HOW TO TALK ABOUT RACE IN OUR COUNTRY.

WE DON'T REALLY DO IT WELL.

>> AND WHILE WE WRESTLE ABOUT TERM LOLINGS, PEOPLE ARE DYING IN THE STREETS.

>> ARE YOU BLACK?

>> AS A GENERAL RULE, I DON'T SELF-IDENTIFY AS BLACK.ONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>> NOW, "IN PARALLEL" WITH MICHAEL GERSON AND AMY HOLMES.

MICHAEL: WELCOME TO "INPRINCIPLE."

TODAY WE EXAMINE AMERICA IN BLACK AND WHITE.

BLACK IDENTITY HAS BEEN AT THE CORE OF THIS NATION'S STRUGGLE TO RECONCILE WITH THE PAST BUT WHAT'S THE ROLE WITH THE WASP -- ROLE AHEAD?

AMY: LATER WE HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH BISHOP T.B.

JACOBS AND KMELE FOSTER TELLS US WHY HE REFUSES TO IDENTIFY AS BLACK.

BUT NOW JOINING US IS MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS, MITCH LANDRIEU JUST DAYS OF LEAVING OFFICE.

THE REMOVAL OF STATUES PUT HIM AT THE HEART OF TODAY'S RACE DETECTIVE.

MICHAEL:MAYOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

LANDRIEU: GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

MICHAEL: AS UN, THERE WAS RECENTLY A MEMORIAL DEDICATED IN ALABAMA TO THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THAT WERE KILLED IN RACIST LYNCHINGS.

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT LEGACY OF VIOLENCE AND OPPRESSION?

LANDRIEU: WELL, THE FIRST THING YOU HAVE TO DO IS RECOGNIZE THAT IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

AND THERE WERE NO MONUMENTS TO LYNCHINGS, THERE WERE NO SLAVE SHIPS, THERE WAS NOTHING IN CONTEXT THAT REMEMBERED THE PATHWAY THAT WE WENT THROUGH SO THAT WE CAN, AS A NATION, SAY THAT WAS A MISTAKE, WERE SORRY.

WE WANT TO CHANGE THAT, RECONCILE AND THEN GO FORWARD.

>> THAT'S AN ISLIZATION RATHER THAN A MEMORY IN A CERTAIN WAY, ISN'T IT?

LANDRIEU: THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REMEMBRANCE AND REVERENCE.

IN SOME INSTANCES TO MAKE SURE WE DO IT AGAIN IF IT WAS GOOD AND TO MAKE SURE THAT WE NEVER REPEAT IT IF IT WAS BAD.

THERES A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REVERENCE.

WE USUALLY USE PUBLIC SPACES TO REVERE GREAT THINGS THAT THE COUNTRY HAS DONE THAT REALLY IFIES US AS A PEOPLE.

IN THE SOUTH, THERE WAS THIS NEED TO HANG ONTO THIS MYTHICAL NOTION THAT SOMEHOW THERE WAS A LOST CAUSE, THAT THE CONFEDERACY LOST THE WAR.

AND I NEEDED TO STATE CLEARLY THAT THE CONFEDERACY WAS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY, THAT IT WAS FOUGHT TO DESTROY THE COUNTRY AND IT WAS FOUGHT OVER THE CAUSE OF SLAVERY.

THAT STATEMENT, THAT VERY CLEAR STATEMENT SEEMED TO TROUBLE NY, MANY PEOPLE.

SO HISTORIANS GOT VERY UPSET ABOUT SAYING WELL, YOURE RUINING HISTORY BY TAKING DOWN MONUMENTS TO THE CONFEDERACY.

AND I MADE THE ARGUMENT THAT THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE CHARGED WITH MAINTAINING OUR HISTORY CREATED HISTORICAL MALFEASANCE BECAUSE THEY ONLY REMEMBERED A VERY, VERY SMALL PART OF THE HISTORY.

AMY: SO MAYOR, IN TAKING DOWN THOSE MONUMENTS IN YOUR CITY, WHO AND WHAT WERE THE BIGGEST OBSTACLES TO GETTING THAT DONE?

LANDRIEU: WELL, ITS COMPLICATED, AS IS EVERYTHING.

WE HAVEN'T REALLY FIGURED OUT HOW TO TALK ABOUT RACE IN OUR COUNTRY.

WE DON'T REALLY DO IT WELL.

AMY: SO WHO DID YOU HAVE TO TELL YOU KNOW WHAT, THESE MONUMENTS ARE COMING DOWN WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT?

LANDRIEU: WELL, THERES A PROCESS THAT WE WENT THROUGH.

I KNEW THAT I, THE MAYOR, HAD THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO DO IT AFTER WE WENT THROUGH A LEGISLATIVE PROCESS, WHICH WE DID.

AND IT HAD ALWAYS BEEN TRUE THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THE CITY WANTED THEM DOWN.

BUT THERE WERE LOTS OF PEOPLE THAT DIDNT WHO, OUTSIDE OF THE CITY.

THEY SOMEHOW FELT THAT FOR SOME REASON THEY HAD SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THE WHAT THE PEOPLE OF NEW ORLEANS DID WITH THEIR OWN PROPERTY.

AMY: SO INTERESTING, THE PRESSURE TO KEEP THEM UP WERE ACTUALLY, WAS ACTUALLY COMING FROM OUTSIDE?

LANDRIEU: WELL, A LARGE PART OF IT WAS.

THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE IN THE CITY WHO WANTED THEM.

ONE OF THE BENIGN REASONS THEY SAY, WAS BECAUSE WELL, THEYVE BEEN THERE FOREVER AND THEYRE PART OF THE HISTORICAL LANDSCAPES SO WHY DO IT?

OR, IF YOU TAKE THEM DOWN, YOURE GOING TO ERASE HISTORY.

AND SOME PEOPLE WERE JUST ADAMANT THAT BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN PUT UP, THAT WE NEEDED TO REMEMBER IN A REALLY KIND OF NOBLE WAY THE CAUSE THAT WAS FOUGHT FOR.

SO WE HAD TO BEAT BACK ALL OF THOSE DIFFERENT ISSUES.

AMY: WHAT DO YOU SAY ON THE OTHER SIDE TO WHITE CONSTITUENTS WHO FEEL THAT THE EFFORT TO TAKE DOWN THESE MONUMENTS IS AN ATTACK ON THEM RACIALLY IN SOME WAY?

LANDRIEU: WELL, IT IS CLEAR THAT NOT EVERYBODY THAT WAS AGAINST TAKING THE MONUMENTS DOWN IS A RACIST.

THERES NO QUESTION THAT THATS NOT SO.

THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE WHO JUST THEIR SENSE OF HOW YOU CURATE HISTORY WAS DIFFERENT FROM MY SENSE OF HOW YOU DO IT.

THERE ARE PEOPLE, HOWEVER, THAT WERE CLEARLY IN FAVOR OF KEEPING THOSE MONUMENTS UP FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH THEY WERE ERECTED, WHICH WAS A POLITICAL STATEMENT OF WHITE SUPREMACY.

THAT IS WHAT THE CALL TO THE LOST CAUSE IS.

AND OF COURSE, THERES ALWAYS A PLACE TO REMEMBER PEOPLE WHO DID SOMETHING, AND THATS GENERALLY IN A CEMETERY OR A MUSEUM.

IN PUBLIC SPACES, IF YOURE GOING TO REVERE SOMEBODY FOR DOING SOMETHING, THAT SPACE, IN MY OPINION, OUGHT TO BE RESERVED FOR SOMETHING THAT UNIFIES AND BRINGS US TOGETHER.

MICHAEL: DO YOU MAKE ANY GRADATIONS IN THESE FIGURES?

YOU KNOW, LEE, BETTER THAN OTHER FIGURES FROM THE WAR AND DO YOU MAKE THOSE DISTINCTIONS, OR IS IT JUST THE CAUSE?

LANDRIEU: WELL, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, THIS SURELY WASNT ABOUT ROBERT E. LEE AT ALL OR P.T.

BEAUREGARD.

THIS WAS ABOUT WHY THESE MONUMENTS WERE PUT UP AND WHO PUT THEM UP.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, I WOULDNT ADVOCATE CHANGING THE NAME OF ROBERT E. LEE UNIVERSITY.

THE UNIVERSITY WAS NAMED AFTER HIM BECAUSE OF HIS WORK HE DID IN EDUCATION AND ITS A REMEMBRANCE FOR A GOOD CAUSE.

THE REASON THESE MONUMENTS WERE PUT UP AS A POLITICAL STATEMENT.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT THAT WAS APPROPRIATE GIVEN THAT SPACE AND THAT CONTEXT.

SO YEAH, I MEAN, ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE COMPLICATED AND HARD AND EVERY ONE OF THESE SITUATIONS IS DIFFERENT AND EVERY COMMUNITY HAS GOT TO DECIDE IT ON ITS OWN.

AMY: MAYOR, YOU HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT BLACK LIVES MATTER, OBVIOUSLY.

AND YOU SAID SOMETHING INTERESTING THAT BLACK LIVES MATTER ACTUALLY DOESNT GO FAR ENOUGH.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

LANDRIEU: THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT, AS YOU KNOW, FOCUSED A LOT OF ATTENTION ON UNEQUAL TREATMENT BEFORE THE LAW FOR INDIVIDUALS THAT WERE CONVICTED OR ARRESTED AND HAD TO DO WRIT LARGE WITH CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.

NOT A LOT OF TIME WAS SPENT IN THERE TALKING ABOUT THE MURDER ON THE STREETS OF YOUNG MEN WHO WERE KILLED.

AND I WAS MAKING THE POINT THAT WHILE I THOUGHT THAT CAUSE WAS WORTHY AND I THINK THAT IT IS AND I THINK PUT IN PROPER CONTEXT, IT CAN TAKE US TO A BETTER PLACE.

ONE OF THE THINGS IVE SPENT A HUGE AMOUNT OF TIME ON IS TRYING TO REDUCE THE KILLINGS ON THE STREETS OF AMERICA.

AND STATISTICALLY IN NEW ORLEANS, IT MAY BE DIFFERENT IN OTHER PLACE, BUT IN LARGE CITIES, YOU WILL GENERALLY FIND A REALLY HIGH HOMICIDE RATE IN NEIGHBORHOODS THAT HAVE LOTS OF COMMON ATTRIBUTES.

AND ONE OF THEM IS THAT YOUNG AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN KILLING YOUNG AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN.

THEY ARE GENERALLY BETWEEN 16 AND 30 YEARS OLD.

AND 88% OF THEM KNOW EACH OTHER.

AMY: SUBPOENASO WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT DOESNT GET SO MUCH ATTENTION?

LANDRIEU: YOU KNOW, ITS INTERESTING TO ME.

IT DOESNT GET ATTENTION FROM ANYBODY.

IVE BEEN SPEAKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE REALLY FORCEFULLY SINCE THE DAY THAT I BECAME MAYOR OF THE CITY OF NEW ORLEANS.

AND ITS NOT JUST THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT, BUT NOBODY PAYS ATTENTION TO THIS PARTICULAR NARRATIVE.

AND I THINK ITS BECAUSE YOU KNOW, IN MY OPINION, THAT PEOPLE DON'T VALUE THE LIVES OF YOUNG AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN THAT ARE POOR.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANYBODY THAT REALLY SPEAKS FOR THEM.

ITS REALLY BEEN STARTLING TO ME THAT OF THE 15,000 MURDERS THAT ARE ON THE STREETS, OVER 40%, MAYBE 45% OF THEM, THE VICTIMS ARE AFRICAN AMERICAN BOYS.

AND OF COURSE, AS YOU KNOW, THE AFRICAN AMERICAN POPULATION IS ONLY 10%, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE EXACT NUMBER IS.

SO THERES AN EXPONENTIALLY HIGH NUMBER OF YOUNG AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN THAT ARE PART OF MURDER VICTIMS IN THE COUNTRY.

MICHAEL: YOURE THE MAYOR OF A GREAT CITY, BUT HAS SOME CHALLENGES TOO.

WHAT ARE THE BIGGEST OBSTACLES TO RACIAL RECONCILIATION YOU SEE IN YOUR WORK?

LANDRIEU: WELL, YOU KNOW, AS I HAVE SAID MANY, MANY TIMES THAT WE DON'T REALLY TALK ABOUT RACE WELL IN THE COUNTRY.

ITS ALWAYS, AGAIN, QUESTIONS LIKE THIS.

IS THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT DOING THE RIGHT THING AND THEY SAY WELL, THE POLICE OFFICERS ARE NOT DOING THE RIGHT THING.

WE DON'T REALLY HAVE A SPACE WHERE WEVE LEARNED THE LANGUAGE OF RECONCILIATION.

IN SOME INSTANCES WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS IM SORRY FOR SOMETHING, SOMEBODY SAYS WELL, DON'T APOLOGIZE FOR ME BECAUSE I DIDNT DO ANYTHING, EITHER.

SO YOU HAVE INDIVIDUAL WRONGS THAT HAVE BEEN CREATED, THEN YOU HAVE HISTORICAL WRONGS.

AND WE JUST HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT HOW TO TALK ABOUT IT.

SO THATS INTERESTING.

THE SECOND THING IS, IS THAT AND I JUST BELIEVE THE CITY OF NEW ORLEANS CALLING CARD IS THE DIVERSITY IS A STRENGTH, ITS NOT A WEAKNESS.

EVERYBODY NEEDS TO BE WELCOMED.

THIS IS TO BE SEPARATED, BY THE WAY, FROM THE NOTION OF WHETHER SOMEBODY IS A CONSERVATIVE OR A LIBERAL OR A MODERATE OR WHERE ON THE SPECTRUM YOU FIT, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY, WERE HAVING CHALLENGES WITH AS WE SPEAK IN THE COUNTRY.

MICHAEL: WHAT WOULD A DEMOCRATIC MESSAGE OF UNITY, NATIONAL UNITY LOOK LIKE?

INSTEAD OF JUST PRESSING POLITICAL ADVANTAGES, AS A DEMOCRAT, HOW DO YOU UNIFY THE COUNTRY?

LANDRIEU: AS A MAYOR, EVEN THOUGH I AM A DEMOCRAT, THATS HOW I SELF-IDENTIFY.

WE DON'T REALLY GOVERN IDEOLOGICALLY.

WE ACTUALLY, MAYORS TRY TO BECAUSE WE HAVE TO FIND COMMON GROUND, FIND CONSENSUS.

NOW IN MY OPINION, THIS IS A CHOICE.

I THINK SOME PEOPLE CAN SAY I CAN ONLY WIN THIS GAME IF I MUSCLE EVERYBODY INTO A 50% PLUS 1.

IM STRONGER THAN YOU TODAY SO THAT I WIN.

THATS ONE GOVERNING PHILOSOPHY.

I THINK PEOPLE DO THAT PURPOSEFULLY.

AMY: YOU SEE THAT A LOT IN WASHINGTON.

LANDRIEU: ALL THE TIME.

THAT'S ALL WASHINGTON LIVES BY.

IF I'VE GOT ONE MORE VOTE THAN YOU, IM GOING TO WIN.

IVE BEEN IN OFFICE FOR 30 YEARS NOW, IM ABOUT TO END MY ELECTED OFFICE CAREER.

I WAS A LEGISLATOR FOR 16 YEARS, I WAS A LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR FOR SIX AND NOW IVE BEEN THE MAYOR FOR EIGHT.

HAVE FOUND THAT BUILDING NSENSUS BY REACHING OUT TO OTHER PEOPLE AND COMPROMISING WITH PRINCIPLE GUIDING YOUR WAY, BUT BEING PRACTICAL IN HOW YOU ARRIVE IS A MUCH BETTER, LONGER-TERM, SUSTAINABLE PATHWAY TO CREATE MORE PROGRESS.

AMY: IS 2020 ON THE HORIZON FOR YOU?

LANDRIEU: IT REALLY IS NOT.

YOU KNOW, IVE BEEN INTERESTED THAT PEOPLE HAVE MENTIONED THAT.

I THINK THE NEXT QUESTION, AS ALWAYS IS WOULD YOU EVER RULE IT OUT.

NO, YOU DON'T DO THAT BUT THAT'S NOT SOMETHING I'M INTENDING TO DO.

AMY: MAYOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US AND SHARE YOUR INSIGHTS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AMY: ACCORDING TO A POLL, WHEN ASKED WHETHER CONFEDERATE STATUES SHOULD REMAIN OR BE REMOVED.

67% SAID THEY SHOULD BE REMAINED WHILE 27% FAVORED REMOVING THEM.

QUESTION ALSO ASKED T.D.

JACOBS HIS POSITION ON CONFEDERATE STATUES.

BISHOP JAKES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

JAKES:ITS A REAL PLEASURE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

BISHOP JAKES, OVER THE PAST YEAR THERES BEEN A LOT OF NTROVERSY OVER CONFEDERATE STATUES.

WHAT IS YOUR POSITION ON THAT ISSUE?

JAKES: YOU KNOW, THIS SOUNDS D, BUT I REALLY DONT HAVE A POSITION ABOUT IT.

I REALLY DONT CARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

TAKING DOWN A STATUE DOESNT ALLOW A SINGLE MOTHER TO FEED HER CHILDREN.

WHETHER YOU LEAVE IT UP OR TAKE IT DOWN THATS NOT REALLY THE CANCER THATS EATING AT THE UNDERBELLY OF AMERICA.

AND I THINK THAT SOMETIMES, THESE DISCUSSIONS ARE OFTEN A DISTRACTION FROM MORE MEANINGFUL MOVES THAT WE CAN MAKE TO MAKE OUR COUNTRY BETTER FOR OVER PEOPLE.

AMY: DO YOU THINK THAT'S A DELIBERATE DISTRACTION FOR SOME PEOPLE?

JACOBS: I THINK ITS EASIER AND I THINK ITS GLITZY AND IT MAKES GREAT TELEVISION AND ITS SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN GET A CAMERA ON.

I THINK THAT AMERICA HAS A TENDENCY TO GET SO MUCH OF ITS INFORMATION FROM A SCREEN RATHER THAN FROM A BOOK.

SO YOU CANT HAVE SUBSTANTIVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT INVISIBLE WOES.

IT'S EASY TO GET A PICTURE OF PEOPLE MARCHING AROUND A STATUE AND IT REALLY DRAWS RATINGS.

AND BECAUSE WE ARE DRIVEN BY IMAGES, SOMETIMES WE GO FOR THE SIZZLE AND LEAVE THE STEAK ON THE GRILL.

AMY: BUT TO BE A BIT OF A CONTRARIAN, SUPPORTERS OF MARCHES AGAINST CONFEDERATE STATUES WOULD SAY HAVING THESE SYMBOLS SCATTERED THROUGHOUT OUR COMMUNITY AND OUR SOCIETY IS CORROSIVE, THAT IT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT WHO WE ARE AND WHAT THAT SAYS IS BIGOTED.

JAKES: YES, AND I AGREE, BUT WHY TAKE AWAY THE SYMPTOM IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO CURE THE DISEASE?

MOVE THE STATUES ALL YOU WANT, BUT IF YOU DON'T MOVE THE OK OBSTACLES THAT STOP US FROM BEING AN UPWARDLY MOBILE SOCIETY, WHAT HAVE YOU REALLY DONE?

MY EYE HAS A WONDERFUL GAZE INTO A WORLD I CAN'T LIVE IN.

MICHAEL: WHAT DO WE NEED TO HEAR FROM BLACK LIVES MATTER?

JAKES: I THINK THERES A LOT TO BE HEARD FROM BLACK LIVES MATTER BECAUSE ITS A YOUNGER MOVEMENT, IT'S A YOUNGER ORGANIZATION.

THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHICAL ETIOLOGY THAN THE CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS FROM MY GENERATION.

MICHAEL: IT'S LESS RELIGIOUS IN A CERTAIN WAY, RIGHT?

JAKES: IT IS CERTAINLY MUCH MORE SECULAR, MUCH MORE SECULAR.

I THINK THAT'S ONE OFPROBLEMS, THAT WHEN YOU TALK TO THE GREAT FAITH LEADERS, WE DONT REALLY ALWAYS REPRESENT THE MENTALITY OF THE ENTIRE BLACK COMMUNITY, THAT WERE NOT MONOLITHIC AND WE DONT ALL GO TO CHURCH AND WE DONT ALL PLAY BASKETBALL, THAT OUR COMMUNITY IS VERY MPLICATED AND VERY COMPLEX.

AND I THINK THAT IT HAS BECOME OVER SIMPLISTIC IN THE WAY THAT ITS BEEN PORTRAYED TO THE NERAL POPULOUS OF AMERICA.

AMY: YOU SAID ON CNN BACK IN 2015 TO DON LEMON AND YOUVE TWEETED IT, THAT WHILE YOU UNDERSTAND THE PHRASE, WHERE IT COMES FROM, BLACK LIVES MATTER, YOU BELIEVE ALL LIVES MATTER.

AND YOU EVEN PUT THAT IN ALL CAPS IN A TWEET.

IS THAT A TOUGH SELL TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY?

JAKES: THERE'S A PRIME EXAMPLE OF WHERE WE SQUABBLE ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE IRRELEVANT TO THE ISSUE.

IT DOESNT MATTER WHETHER YOU SAY BLACK LIVES MATTER OR ALL LIVES MATTER.

AMY: WHY NOT?

I MEAN, THIS HAS BEEN A BIG POINT OF CONFLICT.

JAKES: BUT I'M GOING TO TELL YOU POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS KILLING THE WHOLE ISSUE.

THERES NEVER BEEN A DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER WHITE LIVES MATTER.

THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT BLACK LIVES BEING SHOT DOWN IN AMERICA.

AND WHILE WE WRESTLE ABOUT TERMINOLOGIES, PEOPLE ARE DYING IN THE STREETS.

AND ITS QUITE IRRITATING TO ME THAT WE GET SIDETRACKED OVER WHO KNEELED IN A FOOTBALL GAME OR A BASKETBALL GAME OR WHO DIDNT SAY THE WORDS THAT MAKE US FEEL COMFORTABLE WHILE WE HAVE A MUCH MORE IMPORTANT ISSUE TO DISCUSS ABOUT JUSTICE, CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND ABOUT PEOPLE BEING SHOT DOWN EMPTY HANDED WITH NO PISTOLS AND NO GUNS IN THEIR HANDS.

IF WE GET THE TERMINOLOGY JUST RIGHT WHERE IT FITS BLACK PEOPLE AND IT FITS WHITE PEOPLE AND WE DONT STOP THE KILLING, WE HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING.

THE STATS HAVE REVEALED THAT WERE OFTEN SIX-SEVEN TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE INCARCERATED THAN OUR WHITE COUNTERPARTS, EVEN WHEN WE COMMIT THE SAME CRIMES.

THATS NOT ALL BECAUSE OF BLACKNESS.

IT MAY BE PARTLY BECAUSE OF ECONOMICAL DISPARITIES, GETTING THE RIGHT REPRESENTATION OF LEGALITIES TO BE ABLE TO BE EFFECTIVE.

BE THAT AS IT MAY, AT THE END OF THE DAY, ONCE YOU HAVE A RECORD, YOU CANT GET A JOB.

MICHAEL: RIGHT, OR EVEN AN I.D.

SOMETIMES OR ANY OF THE BASIC THINGS OF LIFE.

JAKES: RIGHT.

PEOPLE WON'T RENT TO YOU AND OFTEN, ITS THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE TELLING YOU, THIS IS AMERICA.

PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS ARE THE VERY PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT HIRE YOU, WHO WILL NOT GIVE YOU AN APARTMENT OR A PLACE TO STAY.

AND IF YOU COME OUT OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND YOU HAVE NEITHER, YOU CANNOT SURVIVE.

MICHAEL: SO SOMEBODY COMES UP TO YOU AND ASKS FOR ADVICE ON HOW TO IMPROVE THEIR LIVES, WHAT ADVICE DO YOU GIVE?

JAKES: WELL, IM GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP BECAUSE -- AMY: I'D LIKE TO HEAR IT.

JAKES: IT GIVES ME AN OPPORTUNITY TO ADDRESS SOMETHING.

EVERYHAS DIFFERENT SKILL SETS.

I COME PASTOR FROM A GENERATION OF SBRUP NURSE.

WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH EVERYTHING.

MY SON IS GOING TO JAIL.

I NEED YOU TO GO DOWN TO THE COURTHOUSE.

THEYRE GETTING READY TO TAKE MY HOUSE.

I WANT YOU TO READ OVER THESE DOCUMENTS.

IM GETTING READY TO GET A PROMOTION.

I NEED YOU TO WRITE A LETTER.

WE HAVE TO HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT APPROACH TO MINISTRY.

ADMINISTRATION MANY TIMES, WE TACKLE ISSUES THAT MAINSTREAM AMERICA DOESNT UNDERSTAND.

YOURE A CLERGYMAN.

YOU SHOULD BE OVER HERE.

I SHOULD BE WHEREVER THE BLEEDING IS.

AMY: FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AS A FAITH LEADER, WHAT IS THE ROLE OF FAITH IN RACIAL RECONCILIATION?

JAKES: I THINK THAT FAITH SHOULD BE LEADING THE DISCUSSION.

AMY: HOW?

JAKES: BECAUSE I THINK IT IS INCONSISTENT WITH SCRIPTURES TO HAVE RACISM AND SAY YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN.

AND YOU WOULD THINK PHILOSOPHICALLY SINCE JESUS DIED FOR EVERYBODY THAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW HIM WOULD HAVE THE LOVE OF CHRIST FOR EVERYBODY.

MICHAEL: A LOT OF CHURCHES ARE VERY SEGREGATED, RIGHT?

JAKES: EXACTLY.

YOU TOOK IT RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH.

AND I THINK WE HAVE A LOT OF HOUSE CLEANING TO DO WITHIN OURSELVES.

BUT, I DONT THINK THAT THAT IS ALWAYS A RESULT OF RACISM.

I THINK IT IS THAT PEOPLE ARE OFTEN AFRAID TO COME OUT OF THEIR SILOS AND COMFORT ZONES, THAT WE ALLOW THE PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE US TO TELL US ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO DONT LOOK LIKE US.

AND UNTIL WE TAKE THE RISK OF INTERACTING WITH PEOPLE WHO MAY LOOK DIFFERENTLY OR MAY VOTE DIFFERENTLY AND THINK DIFFERENTLY RATHER THAN TO ALLOW THE MEDIA TO SET THE PLATFORM FOR THE CONVERSATION, WE WILL NEVER FULLY BECOME THE PEOPLE THAT WE REALLY NEED TO BE.

AMY: SO BISHOP JAKES, THIS YEAR IS OF COURSE, THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE ASSASSINATION OF REVEREND MARTIN LUTHER KING.

AND I WANT TO KNOW FROM YOU, WHAT IS THE STATUS OF THE REVERENDS DREAM IN 2018?

JAKES: I GREW UP IN THE 1960'S SO I REMEMBER WHAT THE WORLD WAS LIKE THEN.

ITS CERTAINLY MADE TREMENDOUS STRIDES FROM WHERE IT USED TO BE.

HOWEVER, I THINK THE ATROCITIES THAT WE FACE TODAY HAVE MORPHED INTO NEW FORMS AND NEW SHAPES, AND I THINK THAT THERES STILL JUST AS MUCH NEED FOR A CIVIL RIGHTS DISCUSSION THEN AS IT WAS IN THOSE DAYS.

I THINK IT IS SIMIC RACISM WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH TODAY AND INSENSITIVITY -- INSIS TITCHTS AS IT RELATES TO POLICIES.

WE DONT HAVE THE THIRD BATHROOM.

WE DONT HAVE THE COLORED WATER FOUNTAINS.

WE DONT HAVE THE WATER HOSES, BUT WE STILL HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO TO BETTER UNDERSTAND HOW TO LIVE TOGETHER AND FULFILL NOT ONLY DR. KINGS DREAM, BUT THE AMERICAN DREAM.

AMY: BISHOP JAKES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SITTING DOWN WITH US AND SHARING YOUR INSIGHTS.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

JAKES: IT'S A REAL PLEASURE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

I ENJOYED IT.

AMY: AND NOW FOR SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES IN ORDER TO HAVE A REAL CIVIL RIGHTS DISCUSSION, YOU HAVE TO DROP LABELS.

KMELE FOSTER IS HERE.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

KMELLE FOSTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE AT "IN PRINCIPAL."

WE APPRECIATE IT.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

SO KMELLE, YOU HAVE SOME PRETTY UNCONVENTIONAL, SOME MIGHT EVEN SAY RADICAL VIEWS ON RACE.

ARE YOU BLACK?

KMELE FOSTER: AS A GENERAL RULE, I DON'T SELF-IDENTIFY AS BLACK.

THE NOTION THAT BLACK IS A CONCRETE, PARTICULAR SPECIE OF PERSON IS NOT SOMETHING THAT I PRESCRIBE TO AND ITS CERTAINLY NOT SOMETHING THAT IS SUPPORTED BY WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT BIOLOGY AND GENETICS.

SO IM A HUMAN BEING, IM AN AMERICAN, IM A FATHER, A BROTHER, A HUSBAND.

IM ALL SORTS OF GREAT THINGS, BUT I DON'T SEE ANY PARTICULAR VALUE IN INVESTING SOMETHING IN THAT PARTICULAR LABEL.

AMY: WHY NOT?

FOSTER: WELL, ITS JUST NOT SOMETHING THAT I ITS NOT SOMETHING THAT I HAVE EVER GIVEN MUCH VALUE TO, AT LEAST IN MY ADULT LIFE.

AS I'VE TAKEN THE TIME TO SORT OF CONSIDER WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A BLACK PERSON IN AMERICA.

AMY: SEEMS LIKE YOUR POSITION IS A VERY LONELY ONE.

HOW DOES THAT FEEL?

DOES IT MAKE YOU ANXIOUS, IS IT PAINFUL?

FOSTER: OFFEND ME?

I DON'T MIND EMBRACING A PERSPECTIVE THAT IS A BIT UNPOPULAR.

LETS FACE IT, THE TRUTH IS THAT RACIAL IDENTITY AMONGST BLACK AMERICANS IS SOMETHING THAT IS PARTICULARLY STRONG.

THEY HAVE A STRONG AFFINITY FOR THEIR SENSE OF COMMUNITY AND CULTURE THEYVE BUILT ALONG THOSE LINES.

AMY: AND I HEAR YOU SAYING THEY NOT WE.

FOSTER: BECAUSE I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF A PART OF THAT COMMUNITY ANY MORE THAN I DO ANY OTHER COMMUNITY.

AND I CERTAINLY DON'T SELF-IDENTIFY AS BLACK, SO I CANT SAY THAT ITS MY CULTURE.

BUT I THINK WHILE THEY HAVE THAT STRONG ATTACHMENT TO IT, THERES SOMETHING, THERES SOMETHING THAT FOR A LOT OF THEM, IT FEELS LIKE CONFRONTATION WHEN I SUGGEST ONE, I DON'T WANT TO BE A PART OF A CULTURE BY DEFAULT.

AND TWO, THAT I THINK ITS MORE IMPORTANT THE THINGS THAT I HAVE IN COMMON WITH PEOPLE BEYOND MY ACTUAL APPEARANCE.

I THINK THOSE THINGS ARE ACTUALLY MORE SUBSTANTIVE.

FOR A LOT OF FOLKS, THEY FEEL LIKE ITS A THREAT TO THEIR OWN SENSE OF SELF-WORTH.

AMY: A LOT OF BLACK PEOPLE WOULD SAY THE COMMON BOND THAT THE BLACK COMMUNITY SCHAFFERS IS SHARED EXPERIENCES OF GROWING NEW A BLACK COMMUNITY.

WHETHER IT'S URBAN ORR RURAL.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

FOSTER: THOSE ARE NOTIONS.

IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE THAT WHEN YOU HAD STATE-SANCTIONED SEGREGATION AND DISCRIMINATION IN THIS COUNTRY, YOU COULD SAY YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS A BITS MORE UNIFORM.

THAT IS A LOT MORE DIFFICULT TO DO TODAY.

MICHAEL: WHAT ARE THE RISKS OF TRIBALISM IN OUR SOCIETY?

FOSTER: IT TENDS TO MAKE THEM THINGS THAT PARTICULAR PEOPLE OR COMMUNITIES ARE CONCERNED ABOUT.

EDUCATION, FOR EXAMPLE, IS NOT A BLACK ISSUE.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM IS NOT A BLACK ISSUE.

THESE CONCERN MEDIUM -- PLENTY OF PEOPLE.

AMY: THERE'S NO VALUE BY SAYING THIS PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE NEEDS A PARTICULAR INTERVENTION OR POLICY?

FOSTER: I THINK IT MAY DISTRACT US.

IVE OFTEN WONDERED IF RACE IS A MAGNIFYING GLASS OR A PRISM.

A MAGNIFYING GLASS HELPS YOU SEE THINGS MORE CLEARLY; A PRISM IS GOING TO BREAK IT UP.

IF IM LOOKING AT EDUCATION THROUGH THE LENS OF RACE, I SEE A POPULATION OF PEOPLE, SAY ASIAN-AMERICANS WHO ARE DOING PARTICULARLY WELL, WHITE AMERICANS WHO ARE DOING A LITTLE LESS WELL AND BLACK AMERICANS WHO ARE DOING LESS WELL THAN WHITE AMERICANS.

WHAT HAVE I REALLY LEARNED HERE?

N I HAVE ANY OF THESE GROUPS BE LESS WHITE, LESS BLACK SO AT THEY IMPROVE?

NOT REALLY.

WHAT IM MOST INTERESTED IN IS WHO ARE THE SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE FROM ANY GROUP AND WHAT ARE THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THOSE PEOPLE AND HOW CAN WE ENCOURAGE EVERYONE WHO ISNT PERFORMING PARTICULARLY WELL TO ADOPT THOSE CHARACTERISTICS.

I THINK THAT, RATHER THAN A MORPHOLOGICAL APPROACH TO UNDERSTANDING THE PHENOMENON IS GOING TO BE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT.

AMY: HOLD ON THERE.

I THINK THATS ONE PART OF IT, RIGHT?

BUT YOUR CRITICS WOULD SAY HOW DO YOU STILL DISCOUNT RACISM IN THE CLASSROOM WHERE A LITTLE BLACK BOY GETS PUNISHED FAR MORE OFTEN THAN THE LITTLE WHITE BOY OR THE LITTLE WHITE GIRL?

ISNT THAT A FACTOR?

DOESNT RACE COME INTO ACCOUNT?

FOSTER: WELL, ITS LESS A MATTER OF DISCOUNTING IT AND MORE A MATTER OF NOT PRESUMING IT.

IT CANT BE THE CASE THAT EVERY DISPARITY THAT EXISTS IN THIS COUNTRY IS A CONSEQUENCE OF EITHER HISTORIC INJUSTICE OR CONTEMPORARY DISCRIMINATION.

IN MANY CASES, RACIAL GROUPS, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE DIFFERENT.

THEY ARE COMPOSED IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

BLACK PEOPLE, ON AVERAGE, ARE YOUNGER THAN ASIAN PEOPLE ON AVERAGE.

SO IF YOURE JUST COMPARING THE PERFORMANCE OF THESE DIFFERENT COHORTS, THATS NOT GOING TO TELL YOU A GREAT.

IT'S NOT GOING TO TELL YOU NEARLY AS MUCH AS YOU SUSPECT.

YOULL SEE FAMILY SIZES THAT ARE DIFFERENT AMONG DIFFERENT RACIAL GROUPS.

IF I AM ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN REALLY UNDERSTANDING A PROBLEM, RACE IS A SHORTCUT.

IT GIVES YOU SOMETHING THAT SOUNDS LIKE A VERY COMPREHENSIVE NARRATIVE ABOUT WHATS HAPPENING, BUT THERES SO MUCH GOING ON UNDER THE HOOD THAT WE COMPLETELY OBSCURE AND IGNORE WHEN WE ALLOW OURSELVES TO GET CAUGHT UP IN THE BELIEF THAT TALKING ABOUT THINGS IN TERMS OF RACE ACTUALLY HELPS TO CLARIFY THEM.

MICHAEL: SUBPOENAHOW DO PEOPLE IN BLACK LIVES MATTER AND OTHER GROUPS REACT TO YOUR MESSAGE?

I'M CURIOUS WHETHER YOU'RE ISOLATED -- [LAUGHTER] AMY: I HAVE MY SUSPICIOUSES -- SUSPICIONS.

FOSTER: WELL, IT TAKES A LITTLE BIT OF EXTRA EFFORT TO DEMONSTRATE TO BLACK LIVES MATTER IN PARTICULAR, WHERE IVE GONE TO COLLEGE CAMPUSES AND TALKED ABOUT ISSUES LIKE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.

I DO THINK THAT THERE ARE SOME SYSTEMIC, FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES WITH POLICING IN THIS COUNTRY THAT ALL AMERICANS SHOULD BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT.

WHAT I TAKE ISSUE WITH IS TURNING THAT INTO AN ISSUE WHERE WE START TO ONE, EXAGGERATE THE DANGERS THAT BLACK PEOPLE FACE WHEN THEY ENCOUNTER POLICE OFFICERS OR TWO, VULCANIZE THE ISSUE, AS I MENTIONED, AND MAKE IT SOMETHING WHERE NO ONE ELSE HAS TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.

WE HAVE TO PRESUME EVERY TIME SOMETHING HAPPENS INVOLVING POLICE THAT THE REASON SOMETHING WENT WRONG OR THE REASON THIS PARTICULAR THING OCCURRED IS BECAUSE OF RACIAL BIAS.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE LOOK FOR EVIDENCE WHEN WERE GOING TO MAKE CLAIMS OF THAT NATURE.

MICHAEL: WHY CANT AMERICA HAVE A BETTER DISCUSSION ABOUT RACE?

I THINK ITS OUR FRAUGHT FOSTER: HISTORY.

IT MAKES IT VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT RACE.

THERE'S A LOT OF BAGGAGE.

WE HAVE A PLACE WHERE WEVE SET UP ALL OF THESE LANDMINES, ALL OF THESE VARIOUS THINGS THAT ONLY CERTAIN PEOPLE CAN SAY, OBSERVATIONS THAT YOU DON'T DARE MAKE.

AND ITS, AGAIN, UNDERSTANDABLE THAT THAT HAPPENS.

ITS ALSO THE CASE THAT IT IS A HELPFUL SHORTCUT, IN MANY CASES.

AMY: KMELE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING CAN CONVERSATION WITH US.

I KNOW YOU HAVE A NEW BABY DAUGHTER, BABY GIRL.

CONGRATULATIONS.

AND I LOOK FORWARD TO THE WORLD SHE'S GOING TO GROW UP IN.

FOSTER: THANK YOU, ME TOO.

MICHAEL: THAT'S IT FOR "INPRINCIPLE."

AMY: FOLLOW US ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

UNTIL TEXAS TIME, I'M AMY HOLMES.

MICHAEL: I'M MICHAEL GERSON.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

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