>> REILLY: TONIGHT ON GREATER BOSTON:" I'M ADAM REILLY, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

AFTER A BANNER DAY FOR HOUSE REPUBLICANS, WHO OUSTED LIZ CHENEY FROM HER LEADERSHIP ROLE OVER HER CONDEMNATION OF TRUMP FOR SPREADING ELECTION LIES AND INCITING VIOLENCE, AND THEN WHITEWASHED THAT VIOLENCE IN A HEARING ABOUT THE CAPITOL ATTACKS, FORMER REPUBLICAN TOM NICHOLS AND POLITICO MASSACHUSETTS' LISA KASHINSKY JOIN ME, ON THE FUTURE OF THE SO-CALLED GRAND OLE PARTY, AND AMERICAN DEMOCRACY ITSELF.

THEN LATER, THE FUTURE OF WORK.

WILL WIDESPREAD HYBRID MODELS OUTLAST THE PANDEMIC?

OR WILL EMPLOYERS-- OR EVEN EMPLOYEES-- DEMAND A RETURN TO THE OFFICE?

I'LL TALK TO WHARTON MANAGEMENT PROFESSOR MARTINE HAAS AND BEHAVIORAL SCIENTIST JON LEVY.

>> REILLY: AS SOME REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS CONTINUE TO DOWNPLAY THE SEVERITY OF THE DEADLY ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL, WE'RE GETTING AN EVEN CLOSER LOOK AT JUST HOW VIOLENT THINGS GOT ON JANUARY 6.

BODY CAMERA VIDEO NEWLY OBTAINED BY CNN SHOWS D.C. METRO POLICE OFFICER MICHAEL FANONE UNDER SIEGE FROM RIOTERS, AND PLEADING FOR HIS LIFE.

>> I'VE GOT KIDS!

>> REILLY: THIS IS JUST THE LATEST VIDEO DEPICTING THE ATTACK.

IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH WE SAW OTHER OFFICERS GETTING CRUSHED BY RIOTERS, GETTING DRAGGED DOWN THE CAPITOL STAIRS, AND BEATEN WITH A FLAG, ALONG WITH IMAGES OF PEOPLE WHO LOOK READY FOR BATTLE, CARRYING WEAPONS AND ZIP-TIE HANDCUFFS.

BUT IN THE FACE OF ALL THAT, GEORGIA CONGRESSMAN ANDREW CLYDE SAID THIS DURING A HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE HEARING YESTERDAY -- >> THERE WAS NO INSURRECTION.

AND TO CALL IT AN INSURRECTION, IN MY OPINION, IS A BOLD-FACED LIE.

WATCHING THE TV FOOTAGE OF THOSE WHO ENTERED THE CAPITOL AND WALK THROUGH STATUARY HALL SHOWED PEOPLE IN AN ORDERLY FASHION STAYING BETWEEN THE STANCHIONS AND ROPES, TAKING VIDEOS AND PICTURES.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE TV FOOTAGE WAS A VIDEO FROM JANUARY THE SIXTH, YOU WOULD ACTUALLY THINK IT WAS A NORMAL TOURIST VISIT.

>> REILLY: A REMARKABLE DENIAL OF REALITY.

THAT HEARING CAME JUST HOURS AFTER HOUSE REPUBLICANS VOTED TO OUST WYOMING CONGRESSWOMAN LIZ CHENEY, A VOCAL CRITIC OF FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP WHO VOTED FOR HIS IMPEACHMENT EARLIER THIS YEAR, FROM HER LEADERSHIP POSITION-- A MOVE THE HOUSE MINORITY LEADER HAS BEEN TRYING TO SEPARATE FROM THE ELECTION LIES THAT FUELED THE JANUARY 6 ATTACK.

>> I DON'T THINK ANYBODY IS QUESTIONING THE LEGITIMACY OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO ABOUT HOW SOMEBODY VOTED.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO ABOUT THEY VOTED FOR IMPEACHMENT OR NOT.

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DECIDED THE LAST TIME.

THIS IS SIMPLY, WHO'S BEST TO DELIVERING THE MESSAGE, THAT'S ALL.

>> REILLY: BUT IN A SPEECH AHEAD OF THE VOTE, CHENEY REITERATED SOME OF HER MANY CRITICISMS OF DONALD TRUMP, WHICH CENTER AROUND HIS REFUSAL TO ACCEPT THE RESULTS OF THE 2020 ELECTION.

>> A FORMER PRESIDENT, WHO PROVOKED A VIOLENT ATTACK ON THIS CAPITOL IN AN EFFORT TO STEAL THE ELECTION, HAS RESUMED HIS AGGRESSIVE EFFORT TO CONVINCE AMERICANS THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM HIM.

REMAINING SILENT, AND IGNORING THE LIE, EMBOLDENS THE LIAR.

I WILL NOT PARTICIPATE IN THAT.

>> REILLY: ACCORDING TO THE HOUSE MINORITY LEADER, THOSE WORDS RUN COUNTER TO THE MESSAGE OF THE G.O.P.

SO, WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN FOR THE FUTURE OF THE PARTY, AND FOR THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE?

I'M JOINED BY THE NEW AUTHOR OF THE POLITICO MASSACHUSETTS PLAYBOOK, LISA KASHINSKY AND TOM NICHOLS, A FORMER MEMBER OF THE G.O.P.

AND THE AUTHOR OF "OUR OWN WORST ENEMY: THE ASSAULT FROM WITHIN ON MODERN DEMOCRACY."

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: LISA, BEFORE WE GET STARTED, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE NEW JOB, WITH I IS A GREAT ONE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I'M VERY EXCITED ABOUT IT.

>> Braude: TOM, I'LL START WITH YOU.

ARE YOU SURPRISED AT THE WAY THE REMOVAL OF LIZ LIZ CHENEY FROM LEADERSHIP WENT DOWN?

NOT THAT IT HAPPENED, BUT THAT IT HAPPENED AS QUICKLY AS IT DID AND AS FORCEFULLY AS IT DID?

>> NO, AND I WISH I COULD SAY THAT I WERE, BUT THIS HAS BEEN AN INEVITABLE COLLISION BETWEEN LIZ CHENEY AND A FEW OTHER HANDFUL OF REPUBLICANS, LIKE ADAM KINZINGER, OR A WHILE NOW.

TWO THINGS, ONE IS WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS AN ASSISTANCE TUITION AND ONE IS WITH INDIVIDUAL REPUBLICANS.

I THINK THE PARTY AS AN INSTITUTION JUST DOESN'T WANT TO KEEP BEING REMINDED OF THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED OVER THE PAST FOUR YEARS, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE TO KEEP SWEARING THEIR LOYALTY TO DONALD TRUMP, AND THAT'S IN THE INTEREST OF A LOT OF INDIVIDUAL REPUBLICAN MEMBERS WHO LIKE BEING IN CONGRESS AND WANT TO STAY THERE.

SO YOU COULDN'T HAVE A MEMBER OF YOUR LEADERSHIP BEING THE GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PAST AND REMINDING YOU OF ALL THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT HAD JUST HAPPENED JUST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS AGO.

>> Reilly: YOU MENTIONED ADAM KINZINGER AS ANOTHER REPUBLICAN MEMBER OF CONGRESS WHO HAS TAKEN POSITIONS SIMILAR TO THE THE ONES LIZ CHENEY HAS TAKEN LAST FALL AND THIS WINTER.

DECIDES KINZINGER, WHO ELSE IS THERE -- I DON'T KNOW IF NEVER TRUMP IS THE RIGHT TERM -- THE CRITICAL TRUMP CAUCUS THAT STILL EXISTS IN THE G.O.P.?

>> I KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO ASK ME THAT AND I WAS RACKING MY BRAIN TO THINK BEYOND CHENEY, KINZINGER, IN THE SENATE MITT ROMNEY, BUT AT THIS POINT YOU COULD HOLD THAT MEETING NOT EVEN IN A PHONE BOOTH, I MEAN, IN ONE BOOTH OF A DINER, AND THAT TELLS YOU WHERE THE INSTITUTIONAL REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS GONE.

THIS IS THE NEW REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> Reilly: SO ALL THE TALK ON THE HEELS OF JANUARY OFFABOUT A RECKONING IN STORE FOR THE PARTY NATIONALLY SPEAKING, AS FAR AS YOU ARE CONCERNED, THE RECKONING IS OVER AND DONE WITH, RIGHT?

>> YEAH, I WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE ARGUING EVEN A FEW YEARS AGO THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS JUST -- AS IT ONCE EXISTED IS OVER AND HAS TO BE, YOU KNOW, VOTED OUT DOWN TO THE SUB MOLECULAR LEVEL IN POLITICS, BECAUSE THIS CAPTURE HAS GONE ALL THE WAY FROM THE SENATE ALL THE WAY DOWN TO, YOU KNOW, LOCAL AND STATE PARTIES, AND IT'S COMPLETE.

>> Reilly: THE RECKONING MAY BE COMPLETE NATIONALLY AND AT THE STATE LEVEL BUT IT IS NOT I THINK ENTIRELY HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, WHICH IS I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT, LISA.

BEFORE WE DO, LET'S LOOK AT WHAT CHARLIE BAKER THE GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS HAD TO SAY WHEN ASKED ABOUT THE CHENEY SITUATION.

>> I MADE VERY CLEAR THAT I FELT THE ELECTION PROCESS THAT TOOK PLACE BACK IN NOVEMBER WAS FAIR, AND THAT PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN WON THE ELECTION.

AND, ON THOSE ISSUES, I BELIEVE LIZ CHENEY IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

>> Reilly: SO, LISA, IT'S FAIR TO SAY THOSE COMMENTS WERE NOT A SURPRISE, RIGHT, COMING FROM CHARLIE BAKER?

>> YES, THIS IS WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER TO SAY.

REMEMBER, THIS IS A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR WHO, YOU KNOW, WOULDN'T VOTE FOR TRUMP, WHO BLANKED HIS BALLOT IN 2020 AND WHO WASN'T AFRAID TO CRITICIZE, YOU KNOW, THEN PRESIDENT TRUMP OVER EVERYTHING FROM THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC, HOW HE WAS HANDLING IT, TO, YOU KNOW, HIS ACTIONS AFTER THE ELECTION AND AFTER THE -- YOU KNOW, AFTER THE CAPITOL ATTACKS.

YES, THIS IS VERY MUCH IN LINE WITH WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT CHARLIE BAKER TO SAY TOWING THE MORE MODERATE REPUBLICAN LINE.

>> Reilly: AND, YET,ETH ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW GOVERNOR BAKER ON THE ONE HAND AND THE STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHICH HAS GONE IN A VERY DIFFERENT DIRECTION, HOW MUCH OF A CHASM THERE IS SEPARATING THEM AS WE LOOK FOR BAKER POSSIBLY RUNNING FOR A THIRD TERM IN 2022.

DO YOU THINK IT'S MORE LIKELY THOSE COMMENTS YESTERDAY COMING ON THE HEELS OF EVERYTHING YOU TALKED ABOUT, MORE LIKELY HE GETS A PRIMARY CHALLENGE FROM THE RIGHT?

>> I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN BUILDING AND SOMETHING YOU MIGHT ALREADY SEE HAPPENING.

YOU HAVE THE REPUBLICAN WHO CHALLENGED ELIZABETH WARREN IN 2018 ALREADY LAYING THE -- GROUNDWORK FOR POTENTIAL RUN IN 2022.

WHETHER A PRIMARY CHALLENGE TO GOVERNOR BAKER OR LT.

GOVERNOR POLITO, OR JUST RUNNING ON HIS OWN, YOU'RE SEEING HIM RUNNING THERE AND HAS SOME SUPPORT IN THE MASS G.O.P.

LEADERSHIP AS YOU TALK ABOUT THE FACTIONS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

SO I THINK THE DOOR IS OPEN, BUT HOW SUCCESSFUL IT IS REMAINS TO BE SEEN IN A STATE THAT THERE'S A SMALL NUMBER OF REAL REGISTERED... R REPUBLICANS.

>> Reilly: YOU'RE GOING TO GET THE LAST WORD ON THAT QUESTION, BUT YOU MAY BE ONE OF THE ONLY PEOPLE I'VE EVER ACTUALLY TALKED TO FACE TO FACE WHO LIKE ME CHECKS OUT THE SOCIAL MEDIA FEEDS TO HAVE -- FEEDS OF THE MASS REPUBLICAN PARTY.

WHAIRP CHEERING ON A LAWSUIT CHALLENGE BAKER'S POWER TO MANAGE THE COVID CRISIS AND THEN RON DeSANTIS SAYING HERE'S WHAT REAL REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP LOOKS LIKE.

IT WAS BAKER, OF COURSE, AS YOU YOU BOTH KNOW AND VIEWERS KNOW IS WILDLY POPULAR IN MASSACHUSETTS, SUCH A STRANGE THING.

>> I AM A FORMER MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN, GREW UP IN THE COMMONWEALTH, THAT'S WHEN I JOINED THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BACK IN THE LATE '70s, BUT YOU CAN'T FORM A PARTY ON, YOU KNOW, ME AND CHARLIE BAKER, AND I'M NOT EVEN SURE WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN FOR SOMEONE LIKE BAKER AT THIS POINT ANYMORE.

AT THIS POINT WASHING IS CARRYING A PARTY LABEL FROM A BYE GONE TIME AND I THINK IT'S HARD TO DIFFERENTIATE BAKER FROM A LIBERAL REPUBLICAN, AND THERE ARE NO LIBERAL REPUBLICANS LEFT.

SO I THINK BAKER -- I DON'T THINK IT DOES THE GOVERNOR MUCH GOOD TO CHANGE HIS PARTY REGISRATION.

THAT ANNOYS PEOPLE IN BOTH PARTIES.

CHARLIE BAKER, TO SOME LESSER EXTENT, SOMEONE LIKE LARRY HOGAN IN MARYLAND, THERE ARE UNIQUE CASES, EXCEPTIONS THAT PROVE THE RULE, AND EVEN WITHIN HIS OWN STATE, HIS OWN REPUBLICAN PARTY IS DETERMINED TO HUNT THE LAST CHARLIE BAKERS TO EXTENSION AND DRIVE THEM OUT OF POLITICS.

SO I THINK THAT ACTUALLY MAKES THE CASE THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY REALLY HAS BEEN CAPTURED BY ITS LUNATIC FRINGE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T EVEN COALESCE BEHIND A GOVERNOR LIKE CHARLIE BAKER.

>> Reilly: I KNOW YOU WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THIS BASICALLY BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A BRIEFIA OF WHY IT IS THAT THE FUELTY REMAINS AS IT DOES.

A ONE-TERM PRESIDENT, LOST THE POPULAR VOTE TWO TIMES AND ONE TIME IN THE PRESIDENCY.

HE SEEMED NOT THAT INTERESTED IN A ONCE IN A GENERATION PANDEMIC KILLING PUNS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY.

WHY ISN'T THE HOLD THAT HE HAD ON THE G.O.P.

LIFTED IN THE SUBSEQUENT MONTHS?

>> A HUGE ABILITY OF IT IS STILL BEING DRIVEN BY SPITE.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WITHIN THE G.O.P.

AND I THINK EVEN SOME OF THOSE VOTERS WHO WISH THAT, YOU KNOW, TRUMP WOULD JUST GET ON A SLOW BOAT TO ANTARCTICA AND VANISH, BUT HE'S NOT GOING TO DO THAT, AND THEY CAN'T CLIMB DOWN AND ADMIT HOW WRONG THEY WERE ABOUT TRUMP.

THEY JUST CAN'T -- THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT.

THE THING I WROTE ABOUT IS THAT, IN PART, THIS IS BECAUSE OUR POLITICS AND ESPECIALLY THE POLITICS OF THE RESENTFUL RIGHT HAVE BECOME OVERWHELMED BY NARCISSISM AND BY THIS COMPLETE INABILITY TO EVER ADMIT A MISTAKE AND AN INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT YOU GOT CONNED.

YOU KNOW, TRUMP, IN A NARCISSISTIC COUNTRY, IN A NARCISSISTIC AGE, DONALD TRUMP WAS THE MOST OBVIOUS CHOICE FOR PRESIDENT BECAUSE HE'S THE MOST NARCISSISTIC PERSON WHO'S EVER WALKED INTO THE OVAL OFFICE AND THAT'S PROBABLY SAYING SOMETHING.

SO THOSE FOLKS ARE NOT GOING TO CLIMB DOWN.

I THINK THIS IS ONE TO HAVE THE THINGS THAT THIS -- THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE EXPECT.

SO WHEN THE ELECTION IS OVER, YOU KNOW, THE REPUBLICANS' FEVER IS GOING TO BREAK -- >> Reilly: THAT WAS JOE BIDEN'S THEORY, RIGHT?

>> AND OTHERS LIKE JEB BUSH AND OTHER PROMINENT REPUBLICANS AS WELL AS JOE BIDEN, YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT GOING TO END.

PEOPLE HAVE FUSED THIS VOTE THEY MADE IN 2016 AND 2020 TO THEIR SENSE OF THEMSELVES, IN A VERY TRIBAL WAY, AND THEY'RE JUST NOT GOING TO LET IT GO.

AND THAT'S -- TO GO BACK TO YOUR INITIAL QUESTION, ADAM, ABOUT THE IMMENSE LEVEL OF LYING FROM PEOPLE LIKE THIS CONGRESSMAN IN GEORGIA, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO ADMIT THE REALITY OF WHAT THEY CREATED AND WHAT THEY VOTED FOR, AND, SO, THEY'RE JUST GOING TO KEEP STAYING WITH IT AND SAY, THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN, I WAS RIGHT, EVERYTHING IS FINE.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T FORM A PARTY ON THAT, YOU CAN'T SUSTAIN A PARTY ON THAT.

>> I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD HERE ON LOCAL MATTERS AND ASK YOU A SIMILAR QUESTION THE ONE I JUST RAN BY TOM.

AS YOU MENTIONED EARLIER IN THE CONVERSATION, JOE BIDEN BEAT DONALD TRUMP HERE SOMETHING LIKE TWO TO ONE, MAYBE EXACTLY TWO TO ONE.

DO YOU HAVE A THEORY ABOUT WHY THE MASS REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS GONE ALL IN ON TRUMPISM, DESPITE FROM THE FACT, FROM THE OUTSIDE, IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE AFTER RECIPE FOR ELECTORAL SUCCESS?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, THERE WERE CANDIDATES THAT RAN FOR FEDERAL OFFICE OR STATE OFFICE IN MASSACHUSETTS, REPUBLICANS FOR 2020 WHO LOST, LEANED INTO TRUMPISM AND LOST AND LOST BADLY.

BUT RIGHT NOW, INSTEAD OF THAT SOUL SEARCHING IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AFTER THE ELECTION AND AFTER THE CAPITOL ATTACK, A YOU HAVE THIS RESTRENECHMENT AND PEOPLE ARE, YOU KNOW, AS YOU SAID, HOLDING FAST TO THESE IDEALS, AND I THINK IT'S VERY MUCH GOING ON WITH THE FACTIONS OF THE MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW WHERE YOU HAVE THE CHAIRMAN JIM LIONS CONTINUING TO LEAN IN TO THE TRUMPISM, THE RADICAL LEFT, BECAUSE HE REALLY THINKS THAT'S WHAT WILL RECRUIT NEW MEMBERS WHO ARE SICK OF THE DEMOCRATS AND HE IS WILLING TO KEEP TRYING THAT.

2022 IS THE REAL TEST OF WHERE THAT WILL WORK.

>> Reilly: ON THAT NOTE, LISA KASHINSKY, TOM NICHOLS, THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Reilly: IF YOU'RE SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN ABLE TO WORK AT HOME DURING THE PANDEMIC, YOU KNOW THERE ARE BOTH PLUSES AND MINUSES TO DOING BUSINESS DIFFERENTLY.

IN MY CASE, IT'S MEANT MORE HOUSEWORK, AND BEING ON-CALL FOR THE OCCASIONAL S.O.S.

FROM MY KIDS.

THEN AGAIN, IT'S ALSO MEANT TAKING THE TIME I USED TO SPEND ON MY SOUL-SUCKING, BLOOD-PRESSURE-SPIKING COMMUTE AND RE-ALLOCATING IT FOR THINGS LIKE RUNNING, MEDITATING, OR JUST HANGING OUT WITH MY FAMILY.

AND FOR THE RECORD, I ALSO FEEL LIKE I'VE DONE SOME OF MY BEST WORK OVER THE PAST YEAR.

BUT NOW, AS VACCINATION RATES RISE, AND RESTRICTIONS ROLL BACK-- INCLUDING A C.D.C.

ANNOUNCEMENT TODAY THAT FULLY INOCULATED PEOPLE NO LONGER NEED TO WEAR MASKS IN MOST INDOOR SETTINGS-- A NEW "BOSTON GLOBE" PIECE IS WARNING ME AND OTHERS THAT, AS A SOCIETY, WE WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY GO BACK TO THE WAY THINGS WERE BEFORE.

IN "THE HYBRID WORKPLACE PROBABLY WON'T LAST," BEHAVIORAL SCIENTIST JOHN LEVY SAYS THAT DESPITE ALL THE TALK OF MIXING DAYS IN THE OFFICE WITH DAYS WORKING REMOTELY, IT'S JUST NOT TENABLE IN THE LONG RUN.

ALL WEEK LONG, THAT PIECE HAS BEEN BURNING UP THE "GLOBE'S" WEBSITE, ALTHOUGH JUDGING FROM THE COMMENTS, A BIG CHUNK OF THAT TRAFFIC MAY ACTUALLY BE COMING FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE HATE-READING.

THEN AGAIN, PLENTY OF OTHER EXPERTS ARGUE THAT HYBRID WORK IS HERE TO STAY, AND THAT THE CHALLENGE NOW IS SHAPING THAT NEW FRAMEWORK TO MAKE IT AS EFFICIENT, EFFECTIVE, AND EQUITABLE AS IT CAN BE.

THAT'S THE PREMISE OF A RECENT HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW PIECE TITLED "MAKING THE HYBRID WORKPLACE FAIR."

I'M JOINED NOW BY THAT PIECE'S CO-AUTHOR, MARTINE HAAS, THE LAUDER CHAIR PROFESSOR OF MANAGEMENT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA'S WHARTON SCHOOL, AND THE DIRECTOR OF PENN'S LAUDER INSTITUTE FOR MANAGEMENT AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES.

AND, JON LEVY, A BEHAVIORAL SCIENTIST AND THE AUTHOR OF THE FORTHCOMING BOOK, "YOU'RE INVITED: THE ART AND SCIENCE OF CULTIVATING INFLUENCE."

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US.

>> JON, LET ME START WITH YOU.

YOU IDENTIFY IN YOUR PIECE FOUR BIG REASONS THAT YOU DON'T THINK THE HYBRID WORKPLACE IS LIKELY TO ENDURE.

CAN YOU RUN THROUGH THEM REAL QUICKLY.

>> SURE.

I WANT TO POINT OUT, NOT THAT IT WON'T NECESSARILY EXIST IN SOME WAY, IT JUST MIGHT NOT BE IN OUR BEST INTEREST, DEPENDING ON WHAT WE WANT TO ACCOMPLISH.

THE FIRST THING IS SOMETHING CALLED THE ALAN CURVE.

A RESEARCHER FROM M.I.T.

FOUND THAT COMMUNICATION INDRESES EXPONENTIALLY THE CLOSER OUR DESKS ARE, MEANING THAT BY THE TIME WE GET TO ABOUT 50 METERS AWAY, WE MIGHT AS WELL BE ON A DIFFERENT PLANET.

AND THE FACT IS OUT OF SIGHT, OUT OF MIND.

IF YOU'RE ONLY SEEING PEOPLE ON MANDATORY ZOOM MEETINGS, THEN IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY HARD TO GET THAT QUALITY TIME IN WITH YOUR BOSS TO BE REMEMBERED WHEN YOU ACHIEVE SOMETHING SPECIAL OR WHEN IT COMES TIME FOR PROMOTIONS AND BONUSES FOR PEOPLE TO BE AWARE OF THE WORK THAT YOU PUT IN.

SO MY CONCERN IS THAT UNLESS YOU HAVE AT LEAST SOME FACE TIME AND YOU'RE IN A JOB THAT PEOPLE WANT TO GET PROMOTED AND SUCCEED IN, IF YOU'RE AWAY FROM PEOPLE, YOU'RE JUST GOING TO BE FORGOTTEN.

>> Reilly: I WANT TO RUN THROUGH THESE QUICK.

YOU TALKED ABOUT THE ALAN CURVE, THE ISSUE YOU JUST MENTIONED, THE QUESTION OF BUILDING TRUST -- YOU SUGGEST IT'S HARDER TO BUILD TRUST IF YOU'RE NOT INTERACTING FACE BY FACE.

YAO SUGGEST THAT CONVENIENCE IS NOT ALWAYS GOOD AND THAT THERE ARE THINGS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT ARE BENEFICIAL ABOUT COMMUTING TO AND FROM THE OFFICE, REFLECTING ON THE DAY, COMING UP WITH NEW IDEAS.

I'M BLAIRCHGING ON YOUR FOURTH POINT.

>> SENSE OF BELONGING.

THE FACT IS THAT THE GREATEST PREDICTOR OF HUGEN LONGEVITY AND EVEN TEAM SUCCESS IS CLOSE SOCIAL TIES AND BELONGING, AND WHEN WE'RE STUCK IN OUR HOMES AND WE DON'T GET EXPOSED TO PEOPLE, THEN IT INCREASES THE LONELINESS EPIDEMIC AND THE ISOLATION FOR MOST PEOPLE.

>> Reilly: MARTINE, IN THE PIECE YOU CO-WROTE FOR HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW, YOU IDENTIFIED A NUMBER OF WHAT YOU SEE AS CONSIDERABLE ADVANTAGES TO HYBRID WORKPLACES.

CAN YOU RUN THROUGH SOME TO HAVE THE BIGGIES.

>> SURE.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'VE REALIZED IN RECENT MONTHS, RIGHT, THE LAST YEAR OR SO, IS THAT THE REASONS ARE TOO DIFFICULT TO EVEN CONTEMPLATE FOR COMPANIES, BUT I THINK WE'RE STARTED WITH A LOWER BAR, WE'VE REALIZED WE COULD DO SOME OF THE STUFF WE DIDN'T THINK WE COULD DO SO EFFECTIVELY.

THERE ARE BIGGER ADVANTAGES THAN I THINK OTHER PEOPLE REALIZED FOR THEIR COMPANIES AND FOR WORKERS, RIGHT.

AND, SO, FOR COMPANIES, HUGE COST SAVINGS IF YOU DON'T HAVE EVERYONE IN THE OBVIOUS, -- IN THE OFFICE, THAT'S OBVIOUS, AND THEN MORE HAPPY, DEPENDABLE WORKERS.

THERE'S GOING TO BE A RANGE OF WHAT PEOPLE WANT.

THERE WILL BE FOLKS WHO ARE, LIKE, I'M GLAD I DON'T HAVE TO COMMUTE TO WORK ANYMORE AND BALANCE WORK FROM HOME, FAMILY STUFF, IN A DIFFERENT WAY AND DIFFERENT PROPORTIONS, MORE FLEXIBLY.

SO THERE ARE BOTH INDIVIDUAL AND ORGANIZELE REASONS.

THERE ARE GOING TO BE STRONG IMPRESSIONS TO THINK ABOUT MORE SERIOUSLY ABOUT HOW DO WE USE HYBRID STRUCTURES WHEN WE GO BACK TO THE WORKPLACE.

>> Reilly: RUN THROUGH CONCERNS ABOUT EQUITY, FAIRNESS, ACCESS THAT YOU IDENTIFIED IN THE H.P.R.

PIECE.

AS A LAYPERSON, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT MAY BE AN AREA WHERE YOU CONCONVERGE RECOGNIZING IN THE HYBRID MODEL THERE ARE RISKS THAT NEED TO BE MANAGED.

WHAT ARE THE RISKS THAT YOU IDENTIFIED.

>> NO QUESTION THAT WORKING IN A HYBRID WAY HAS A LOT OF COMPLICATIONS, COMPLEX AND IT'S CHALLENGING AND BY THE WAY, THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT WAYS YOU CAN THINK ABOUT IT, RIGHT, I'M ALWAYS WORKING FROM HOME AND YOU ARE ALWAYS WORKING IN THE OFFICE, THAT'S ONE VERSION.

THE OTHER VERSION IS I'M WORKING AT HOME PART OF THE WEEK AND THE OFFICE PART OF THE WEEK, AND I THINK THE LATTER ONE IS MORE MANAGEABLE.

YOU HAVE SOME OF THE SAME BUT NOT AS EXAGGERATED FOR SOME PEOPLE HERE AND THERE VERSION OF IT BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS THEN, YOU'VE GOT, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO SEE EACH OTHER IN PERSON OR ONLY PRETTY RARELY, RIGHT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF DIFFICULTIES IN SORT OF REALLY -- HOW DO YOU BUILD CULTURE, THERE CAN BE CREATIVITY, HOW PEOPLE CAN BE CREATIVE AT A DISTANCE.

THE OTHER IS POWER DYNAMICS IN THE OFFICE.

YOU KNOW, WHAT STOPS US FROM TALKING TO A LOT OF EXECUTIVES, PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED AND PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCES, SOME PEOPLE ARE AT HOME, SOME IN THE OFFICE, PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE DISADVANTAGED POSITIONS ARE GOING TO STRUGGLE MORE, RIGHT, AND THAT MAY BE A DISADVANTAGE BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO RESOURCES, YOU'RE NOT IN THE OFFICE WHERE THE PHOTOCOPIER IS, WHERE THE SECRETARIES ARE, WHERE THERE ARE PEOPLE TO TALK TO AND SUPPORT.

AND THERE'S ADVANTAGES OF VISIBILITY.

IF THE BOSS IS IN THE OFFICENNED YOU'RE NOT, THAT CAN BE A DISADVANTAGE.

SO THE WAY THE SETUP WORK TO MAKE SOME STRUCTURALLY ADVANTAGED TO OTHERS.

WHAT WE TALK ABOUT IN THE ARTICLE IS HYBRID COMPETENCE WHETHER YOU'RE JUST GOOD AT MANAGING IN A HYBRID ENVIRONMENT.

SOME PEOPLE WILL BE BETTER THAN THAT.

SOME PEOPLE WILL BE BETTER SPEAKING ON A SCREEN TO PEOPLE SITTING AROUND THE TABLE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

SO THERE'S A SET OF SKILLS YOU NEED TO DEVELOP AND LEARN AND GET GOOD AT IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE IN THAT POSITION AS A WORKER OR A MANAGEMENT TEAM.

>> AND, JON, I RECALL -- I DON'T THINK OF MYSELF AS AN INTROVERTS BUT I'M CLOSE TO SOME AND SOME INTROVERTS IN MY FAMILY, WHAT YOU MENTIONED, IN ZOOM MEETINGS, AND I HAVE BEEN GUILTY, YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE LOUD MOUTHS TALKING OVER PEOPLE WHO TEND TO HANG BACK A LITTLE MORE, RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE BIGGER PERSONALITIES TAKE OVER AND THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS SIDE CONVERSATIONS OR HALLWAY CONVERSATIONS.

WHAT ENDS UP HAPPENING IS YOU HAVE SOMETHING ADDITIONAL TO SHARE OR YOU WANT TO PASS A NOTE, IT BECOMES A MORE COMPLEX PROCESS THAT CAN ACTUALLY BREED PARANOIA.

BUT IF I CAN ALSO ADD, I VERY MUCH ADD THAT MARTINE POINTED OUT IT'S DO DOABLE BUT REALLY COMPLEX.

THERE ARE WAYS TO MAKE UP FOR THESE ISSUES, BUT MANAGEMENT IN GENERAL IS TIRED AN WORN OUT FROM THIS PAST YEAR AND A HALF, AND I'M NOT 100% SURE THEY'RE GOING TO PUT IN ALL THE BEST PRACTICES THAT WILL ACTUALLY ALLOW US TO DO WELL.

AND, SO, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, IT MIGHT JUST CREATE A REALLY UNFAIR CONDITION FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

>> Reilly: ONE THING I WANTED TO MAKE SURE TO ASK YOU ABOUT, IN YOUR PIECE YOU DESCRIBE A HYBRID WORKPLACE AS ONE WHERE MOST PEOPLE WORK FROM HOME.

WHEN YOU'RE SAYING THE HYBRID WORKPLACE IS UNLIKELY TO LAST FOR A LONG TIME, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ONE THAT IS PRIMARILY WORK FROM HOME OR ONE, AS MARTINE MENTIONED, TWO TWO OR THREE DAYS REMOTE AND TWO OR THREE DAYS IN THE OFFICE.

>> ONE THAT'S PRIMARILY AT HOME.

>> Reilly: OKAY.

THE INTERESTING THING IS, FRANKLY, FIVE DAYS A WEEK AT AN OFFICE IS REALLY AN ARBITRARY NUMBER, RIGHT.

IT'S -- ODDLY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY BASED ON KIND OF WEIRD RELIGIOUS HABITS, AND WE KIND OF STUCK WITH IT.

AND MARTINE MIGHT BE POINTING OUT SOME REALLY GREAT POINTS, WHICH IS THAT WE MIGHT BE BETTER OFF, FRANKLY, WITH THREE AND TWO OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT OR ROTATING.

THE PROBLEM IS, GENERALLY, WE'RE REALLY BAD AT SETTING BOUNDARIES ON OUR SCHEDULE OR CALENDAR, AND, SO, IT WILL START OFF AS A THREE-TWO PROCESS, IT'S OH, YEAH, BUT WE REALLY HAVE AN IMPORTANT MEETING WITH A V.P.

ON WEDNESDAY, CAN YOU COME IN, IN PERSON?

AND SUDDENLY PEOPLE HAVE THE SOUL-CRUSHING COMMUTE THAT YOU WANT TO DO.

SO THE QUESTIONS AND COMPLEXITIES MAKE IT HARD AND WITH MANAGEMENT BEING SO OVERWORKED, THEY'RE PROBABLY JUST GOING TO END UP SAYING WE DON'T WANT TO PUT IN THE EFFORT TO FIGURE THIS OUT.

EVERYBODY COME IN.

OR SOMETHING SIMILAR.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SOME SURVEY DATA I'VE SEEN.

OBVIOUSLY I HAVE MY OWN PERSONAL PREFERENCES HERE.

I DON'T THINK THAT I'M ALONE IN HOPING THAT A HYBRID WORK FROM HOME PART FROM THE OFFICE WORKPLACE BECOMES A THING IN THE FUTURE.

THIS WAS A MCKENZIE SURVEY, 37% OF EMPLOYEES SAID -- WHO HAVE THE POSITION SAID THEY WOULD PREFER TO WORK ONSITE, 52% WANTED HYBRID, 47% WAND A REMOTE.

A PRICEWATERHOUSE SURVEY SAID 45% OF GEN V SAID THEY WOULD HAVE A PAY INCREASE TO WORK REMOTELY.

YOU TALK ABOUT MANAGEMENT BEING TIRED BUT ISN'T THERE A COMPETITIVE DISADVANTAGE HERE FOR COMPANIES WHO DON'T FIND A WAY OF CREATING SOMETHING THAT ISN'T EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE WAY WE USED TO WORK BEFORE?

I'M WONDERING WHAT BOTH OF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT.

>> I WOULD SAY THAT THERE'S -- IF WE'RE COMPETING FOR TALENT, THEN WE'RE GOING TO FUNDAMENTALLY HAVE AN ISSUE BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO END UP WITH THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENED WITH, LIKE, PING-PONG TABLES AND ALL THAT KIND OF OFFICE STUFF THAT NOBODY EVER ACTUALLY USES.

THE ISSUE THAT I'M REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT, IF YOU WILL NOTICE, GENERALLY, THE YOUNGER THEY LEARN THE MORE NAMED TO STAY AT HOME.

WE ALSO KNOW FROM A CIGNA STUDY THAT THE YOUNGER PEOPLE ARE, THE MORE LONELY, THE MORE ISOLATED AND THE LESS SOCIALLY CAPABLE THEY'VE GENERALLY BECOME.

>> Reilly: GOOD POINT.

THE OFFICE IS THE ONLY PLACE WHERE WE HAVE TO INTERACT WITH PEOPLE THAT WE DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH OR SEE EYE TO EYE.

AND WITHOUT SOME CULTURAL EXPOSURE AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF WHAT PEOPLE TEND TO CALL SOFT SKILLS, IT'S GOING TO BE A DEBTOR MEANT IN THE LONG RUN IF WE DON'T HAVE AT LEAST WHAT MARTINE IS POINTING TO WHICH WOULD BE PARTIAL DAY.

>> Reilly: A DIFFERENT QUSTION VIEW, MARTINE -- HOW SOON WILL WE KNOW WHERE SOCIETY SETTLES?

A YEAR, THREE YEARS, FIVE YEARS?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S GOING TO TAKE A WHILE BECAUSE I DON'T THINK EVERYBODY IS GOING TO BE SUDDENLY HAPPY TO GO BACK FULL TIME FOR THE SAME REASONS YOU WOULDN'T BE TODAY, THERE ARE ADVANTAGES AND I DON'T WANT TO GIVE THEM UP.

SO I THINK COMPANIES ARE GOING TO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT POLICY QUESTIONS, WHO DO I BRING BACK, THE POLICY QUESTIONS, AND THEY WILL PROBABLY TRY IT BY AND LARGE.

IF THERE STARTS TO BE A COMPETITIVE TREND THAT GOES IN A PARTICULAR DIRECTION, WE NIGHT GET A MOVE WHERE EVERYBODY IS COMING BACK.

THAT MIGHT PROBABLY, THEY'LL TRY IT OUT FOR A WHILE, FIGURE OUT WAYS OF DOING WORK AND SOME WAYS THAT DON'T AND IT WILL BE A MORE STABLE SITUATION, BUT THAT'S PROBABLY GOING TO TAKE A FEW YEARS OF TRYING OUT ALL THIS NEW STUFF.

>> MARTINE, JON, THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

FASCINATING STUFF.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT BUT DO COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "BEAT THE PRESS."

EMILY ROONEY AND HER PANEL WILL TAKE UP A RISE IN NEWS AVOIDANCE, AND WHY REGULAR VIEWERS ARE DECIDING TO TUNE OUT.

PLUS, SHOULD SUNDAY MORNING TALK SHOWS BE GIVING ELECTION DENIERS A FORUM?

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

S Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org