>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON:" U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MASSACHUSETTS RACHAEL ROLLINS JOINS ME ON THE RACIST MURDERS IN BUFFALO, THE RISE OF EXTREMIST GROUPS AND HATE CRIMES RIGHT HERE, AND WHAT, IF ANYTHING, CAN BE DONE.

PLUS, "BOSTON GLOBE" EDITORIAL WRITER ABDALLAH FAYYAD, NOW A PULITZER PRIZE FINALIST FOR HIS EDITORIAL SERIES "FUTURE-PROOFING THE PRESIDENCY," ON THWARTING THE NEXT AMERICAN TYRANT.

>> Braude: IN THE DAYS SINCE THE MURDERS IN BUFFALO, TARGETING BLACK PEOPLE, WE'VE LEARNED THE SUSPECTED GUNMAN HAD BEEN PLANNING HIS RAMPAGE FOR MONTHS, POSTING ONLINE THAT HE CHOSE HIS TARGETED AREA SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE IT HAD THE HIGHEST PERCENTAGE OF BLACK PEOPLE RELATIVELY CLOSE TO HIS HOME, MORE THAN 200 MILES AWAY.

AN ATTACK CLEARLY MOTIVATED BY HATE-- THE SAME HATE WE'VE SEEN TIME AND AGAIN HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, AS WELL-- WHICH WE RECENTLY LEARNED WAS RANKED AS HAVING THE FOURTH-HIGHEST LEVEL OF HATE PROPAGANDA ACTIVITY IN THE COUNTRY, IN AN ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE REPORT, JUST BEHIND PENNSYLVANIA, VIRGINIA, AND TEXAS.

IN THE PAST THREE YEARS, SOMEONE SET FIRE TO A BLACK CHURCH IN SPRINGFIELD, A FIREBOMB WAS THROWN OUTSIDE A JEWISH ASSISTED LIVING FACILITY, FIRES WERE SET AT FOUR DIFFERENT JEWISH INSTITUTIONS IN ARLINGTON, NEEDHAM, AND CHELSEA, AND IT WAS JUST SHY OF A YEAR AGO THAT A WHITE MAN WHO HAD PUBLISHED A RACIST SCREED ONLINE WENT ON A SHOOTING RAMPAGE IN WINTHROP, KILLING TWO BLACK PEOPLE BEFORE HE WAS SHOT AND KILLED BY POLICE.

I'M JOINED BY THE PROSECUTOR WHO'S BEEN INVOLVED IN ALL THESE CASES, AND HAS BEEN SUBJECTED TO MULTIPLE RACIST THREATS IN HER ROLES AS FORMER SUFFOLK COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, AND NOW U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MASSACHUSETTS, RACHAEL ROLLINS.

THANKS FOR JOINING ME.

>> GOOD TO SIGH, JIM.

>> BEFORE I GET YOUR REACTION TO ALL OF THIS AS A PROSECUTESSER, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU AS A PERSON.

WHAT WAS YOUR PERSONAL REACTION TO THE SLAUGHTER THAT WE WITNESSED IN BUFFALO.

>> I WAS DEVASTATED.

I LOOKED AT THAT COMMUNITY, PEOPLE DOING WHAT WE ALL DO, GOING SHOPPING FOR THEIR FAMILIES.

WE HEARD THE STORIES OF VARIOUS PEOPLE AND WHY THEY WERE THERE, GOING TO HELP, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY THEY LOVE.

OR PICK SOMETHING UP TO MAKE DIFFERENT.

AND THE CALCULATED BEHAVIOR OF SOMEONE SO YOUNG AND FILLED WITH SO MUCH HATE.

IT WAS DEVASTATING.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, THERE IS ONE THING THAT TALK WITH ME, MANY THINGS HAVE STALK WITH ME.

I WAS READING A STORY IN "THE NEW YORK POST," THE TITLE WAS BLACK COMMUNITY MEMBERS QUESTION WHY THE SHOOTER WASN'T-- BY THE COP, MAYBE STH NOT FAIR AND I'M NOT IN LAW ENFORCE.

IT LOOKED LIKE THESE COPS COULD BE TAKING A GUY WHO HAD BEEN STOPPED FOR SHOPLIFTING INTO THE BACKSEAT OF A POLICE CAR S THAT AN UNFAIR REACTION FROM AFAR BY ME?

>> I DON'T BELIEVE IT IS.

AND WE CAN GO BACK TO JANUARY 6th WHERE WE SAW PEOPLE WHO HAD COMMITTED MULTIPLE FELONIES BEING GENTLY ESCORTED DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS BY LAW ENFORCEMENT.

THERE IS A VERY DIFFERENT REACTION THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT HAS, I BELIEVE, IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, TO INDIVIDUALS THAT THEY CAN SEE THEMSELVES IN.

AND DYLAN-- DYLANN ROOF AND THIS OTHER PERSON WHO COMMITTED THIS HORRIFIC ACT OF VIOLENCE IN BUFFALO WAS TREATED AFTER KILLING TEN PEOPLE AND INJURING THREE OTHERS, BETTER THAN SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME AT ALL.

AND YOU KNOW, WE'RE MAN HANDLED.

SO THERE ARE VERY DIFFERENT REACTIONS OR EXPERIENCES THAT CERTAIN COMMUNITIES HAVE WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT.

AND IF WE AREN'T WILLING TO HEAR THAT, THEN WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE SEEING THE SAME PROBLEMS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

WE KNOW, JIM, WITH DYLANN ROOF, HE WAS BROWTS TO BURGER KING AFTER HE WAS ARRESTED.

WHEN IN THE HISTORY OF EVER HAS THAT HAPPENED THAT WE KNOW OF WHEN A PERSON OF COLOR HAS GONE OFF TO COMMIT MULTIPLE VIOLENT ACTS OR MURDERS.

IT IS REALLY JUST-- IT IS INCREDIBLY HYPOCRITICAL AND I'M HEARING FROM ACROSS DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES.

THAT PEOPLE ARE FED UP.

>> ALSO I DON'T THINK GEORGE FLOYD MURDERED ANYBODY.

>> OF COURSE HE DIDN'T.

THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHOM, YOU KNOW, HAVE COMMIT NOD CRIMES AT ALL OR COMMITTED MISDEMEANORS AND THEY ARE KILLED DURING ENKOIRNTS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AND WE LOOK AT DYLANN ROOF AND THIS PERSON WHO KILLED NINE AND TEN PEOPLE EACH WHO WERE GENTLY ESCORTED WITHOUT A SCRATCH ON THEM.

AND BY THE WAY, JIM, NO ONE IS SAYING WE WANTED THEM DEAD.

THAT IS NOT WHAT IS BEING SAID.

AT LEAST CERTAINLY BY ME.

WE WANT THE SAME DEESCALATION AND RESTRAINT THAT IS SHOWN TO THOSE INDIVIDUALS SHOWN TO OUR COMMUNITY AS WELL.

>> Braude: WHAT WERE YOUR RE-ELECTIONS THROUGH A PROSECUTORS' LENS ON WHAT HAPPENED LEADING UP TO THIS MASS MURDER AND ADDICT?

>> I THINK ABOUT CERTAINLY THERE ARE ON VIESES-- OBVIOUSLY MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES INVOLVED IN THIS CASE.

BUT I NEED THERE TO BE CONSISTENCY THERE ARE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES IN EVERY SINGLE CASE VIRTUALLY WHEN I WAS DA WHEN WE CHARGED SOMEBODY WITH A MURDER.

THERE AS WELL.

BUT THERE IS THIS SORT OF REFLECTIVE RESPONSE WHERE THERE MUST BE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES IF IT IS A, QUITE FRANKLY, WHITE TEENAGER THAT ENGAGES IN THE BEHAVIOR.

AND THE KIND OF INFANTIZATION OF WHITE VIEWS.

THERE WAS SOMETHING THAT I READ RECENTLY THAT THE AP WHEN THEY SPOKE ABOUT MICHAEL BROWN WHO BY THE WHICH KILLED NOBODY BUT WAS KILLED DURING AN INTERACTION WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT.

MICHAEL BROWN WAS 18.

HE WAS A BLACK MAN, WHEN THEY DESCRIBED THIS INDIVIDUAL, SAME PUBLICATION, HE WAS A WHITE TEENAGER.

AND LANGUAGE AND WORDS MATTER.

SO YOU KNOW THROUGH THIS LENS, I JUST, I LOOK AT HOW METHODICAL THIS PERSON WAS, HOW MANY TIMES THEY WENT BACK TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS GOING TO GO EXACTLY AS PLANNED.

HOW THEY WERE TAUNTING QUITE FRANKLY.

IN HIGH SCWOOL SAYING WHAT ARE YOUR PLANS UPON GRADUATION.

A MURDER SUICIDE.

AND THAT YOU KNOW, IS CLEARLY THERE WAS AN ERROR COMMITTED THERE WHEN HE WAS QUESTIONED AND YOU KNOW, HELD FOR A DAY AND A HALF REGARDING MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES.

DID THEY LOOK TO SEE IF THERE WERE ANY FIRE ARMS IN THE HOME.

DID THEY LOOK TO SEE IF ANYONE HAD A LICENSE TO CARRY IN THAT HOME?

ARE WE GOING TO USE THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEE WHERE THERE ARE HOLES IN THE SYSTEM AND WE CAN MAKE THINGS STRONGER AND BETTER.

>> Braude: I'M ASSUMING YOU HAVEN'T DONE A SURVEY BUT I'M GUESSING YOU'RE EXPERIENCING WHAT I THINK EXISTS IS THAT MOST NEWS THIS PART OF THE COUNTRY, LET'S SAY IN EASTERN MASSACHUSETTS, SHAKE OUR HEADS BUT KNOW THAT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE AND IT DOESN'T HAPPEN HERE IT HAPPENS IN FAR AWAY PLACES LIKE BUFFALO.

WAS IT FEBRUARY THAT YOU INDICTED THE GUY FROM MAINE FOR BURNING DOWN THE BLACK CHURCH IN SPRINGFIELD WHICH I THINK WAS THE SECOND BURNING OF A BLACK CHURCH IN SPRINGFIELD IN 12 YEARS.

AM I NOT RIGHT ABOUT THAT?

>> YOU WERE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT THAT.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER MANY PEOPLE WERE CELEBRATING THE THE ELECTION OF BARACK OBAMA, SPRINGFIELD MASSACHUSETTS HAD A HISTORICALLY BLACK CHURCH WAS BURNED.

AND THE U.S. ATTORNEY AT THAT TIME BROUGHT CHARGES AGAINST THOSE THREE INDIVIDUALS.

AND I INHERITED THIS CASE AND WE RECENTLY INDICTED THE INDIVIDUAL THAT BURNED ANOTHER CHURCH IN SPRINGFIELD.

WE HAVE SEEN JIM NOT ONLY CHURCH BURNINGS WHICH ARE HISTORICALLY HORRIFIC CRIMES WHERE PLACES OF WORSHIP ARE BURNED TO TERRORIZE PEOPLE.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN THE MURDERS IN WINTHROP.

AND THAT HAPPENED IN A SLEEPY SEASIDE TOWN WHERE RAMONAR COOPER AND DAVID GREEN WERE GUNNED DOWN.

AND I VERY CONFIDENTLY BELIEVE THAT NATHAN ALAN WAS ON HIS WAY TO THE JEWISH COMMUNITY RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.

HIS CELL PHONE HAD A WEBSITE UP THAT HAD INCREDIBLY ANTI-SEMITIC RHETORIC AND IDEOLOGY ON THAT WEBSITE.

SO WE ARE FORTH NATD THAT ONLY, I MEAN THERE IS A TRAGEDY THAT TWO PEOPLE DIED.

WE ARE FORTUNATE THAT ONLY TWO PEOPLE DIED AND THE SERGEANT FROM THE WINTHROP POLICE DEPARTMENT AFTER PLEADING WITH MR. ALAN TO DROP HIS WEAPON, DISCHARGED HIS WEAPON WHEN HE WOULDN'T.

AND QUITE FRANKLY SAVED MANY, MANY OTHER LIVERS.

>> Braude: IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU WHEN I PUT UP THAT CHART WHEN THE ADL, THE ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE IN TERMS OF HATE PROPAGANDA WE RANK NUMBER FOUR, WHICH IS-- I ASKED MY COWORKERS TO DOUBLE CHECK TO MAKE SURE IT WAS NOT A MISTAKE THERE.

DOES THAZ, WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

DOES THAT SURPRISE SNU I GUESS IT DOESN'T CONSIDERING WHAT YOU DO.

BUT.

>> IT IS A LITTLE SURPRISING, YOU KNOW.

I WILL SAY WHEN WE LOOK AT DATA WE NEED TO BE HONEST ABOUT IS THIS SELF-REPORTED.

YOU SNOW, IF IT IS SELF-REPORTED I AM PROUD OF MASSACHUSETTS MASS, PENNSYLVANIA, VIRGINIA AND TEXAS FOR ACTUALLY REPORTING HATED CRIMES.

IF YOU TELL ME WHEN WE LOOK AT THAT CHART THAT MISSISSIPPI HAS 11 HATE CRIMES A YEAR, AND THEY ARE IS VOLUNTARILY REPORTING, I'M GOING TO SAY LOOK, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER I-- I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THESE NUMBERS PROPERLY REFLECT BUT IT'S DISAPPOINTING, YOU KNOW, AND WE CAN LOOK AT HATE CRIMES, JIM AND HATE INCIDENTS OR HATE SPEECH WHERE WE SEE AN INCREASE IN YOUNG PEOPLE OFTEN ON SPORTS TEAMS, ENGAGING IN USING LANGUAGE THAT IS ANTI-SEMITIC, HOMOPHOBIC AS WELL AS RACIST.

AND THAT IS FERTILE GROUNDS I BELIEVE FOR WHITE SUPREMACISTS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF.

>> I'M SO GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP.

SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN OUT ABOUT THESE TEENAGE ATHLETES AND HATE SPEECH.

THE LAST COUPLE OF NIGHTS WE FOCUSED NOT ON TEENAGERS BUT GROWN UPS IN POSITIONS OF POWER IN EVERETT, MASSACHUSETTS.

AND THEY APPARENTLY VNTS COMMITTED ANY YIEMS BUT THE CITY COUNCIL, A COULD YOU SIFN THE MAYOR SENT OUT EMAILS WITH THE N WORD IN IT ON NUMEROUS TIMES.

THE CHIEF SPOKESPERSON FOR THE MAYOR JOKINGLY SUGGESTING HE BRING SOME DARK FRIENDS, DARK FRIENDS TO AN EVENT TO PROVE THAT HE WASN'T RACIST.

THE MAYOR, AGAIN, HIS COUSIN SAYS HE DESERVED A SECOND CHANCE.

WE DID SOME RESEARCH TODAY.

WE CAN'T NIEND ONE PUBLIC OFFICIAL BEYOND THE BORDERS OF EVERETT WHO HAS HAD ONE CRITICAL WORD TO SAY ABOUT THE EXACT KIND OF HATE SPEECH IN GOVERNMENT THAT YOU WERE DESCRIBING A MINUTE AGO.

WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

>> DI DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN I WILL TELL YOU, THAT PART OF WHY I TOOK THIS NEW POSITION AND DID NOT REMAIN THE SUFFICIENT FOK COUNTY-- SUFFOLK COUNTY DA FOR QUITE SOME TIME, I HOPE, IS THAT IT IS INCUMBENT ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT IF WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO LOOK INTO WHAT CITY GOVERNANCE OR MEUNGS PAL GOVERNANCE IS DOING, IF THEY ARE FAILING CERTAIN GROUPS OF PEOPLE OR HAVE THREADS OF SEXISM, RACE.

, ANTI-SEMITISM, WOVEN THROUGH THEIR BEHAVIOR, AND WE CAN SHOW A PATTERN OR PRACTICE OF THAT, OR ONGOING BEHAVIOR THAT HASN'T BEEN CURBED OR CHANGED.

I THINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE HAS AN OBLIGATION TO LOOK THAT.

>> SHOULD THOSE PEOPLE HAVE JOBS?

FORGET-- SHOULD NOSES, GO BACK TO YOUR HUMAN BEING CITIZENSHIP, SHOULD THOSE PEOPLE HAVE JOBS IN GOVERNMENT, IN MASSACHUSETTS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW.

>> THE FACTS ARE NOT DISPUTED.

THE FACTS ARE NOT DISPUTED.

>> THEY ARE NOT DISPUTED.

AND I THINK THE PEOPLE OF EVERETT, THIS IS GOING TO BE A TELL-TALE MOMENT FOR EVERETT.

AND WHAT DO YOU WANT TO-- WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE REMEMBERED AS.

ARE THERE GOING TO BE PEOPLE AND UNFORTUNATELY, JIM, SOMETIMES OUT OF HORRIFIC, AWFUL SITUATIONS POSITIVE THINGS GROW.

AND WHETHER THAT MEANS OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE EVER RUN FOR OFFICE BEFORE CHOOSE STO STEP UP AND LEAD OR A BRIER CHANGE, THAT IS PLIE SINCERE HOPE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, BEFORE YOU GO, RACHAEL ROLLINS, IF I CAN BRIEFLY BRING UP TWO OTHER THINGS THAT YOU SEEM TO HAVE SOME INVOLVEMENT IN.

THE HERALD REPORTED THAT YOU OPENED AN INVESTIGATION INTO QUINCY'S OPPOSITION TO BUILDING A LONG ISLAND BRIDGE, POSSIBLE CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATION.

I ASSUME PEOPLE KNOW THAT IS A PLACE FOR ADDICTION RECOVERY, WENT ON IT WAS SHUT DOWN.

MAYOR WU, MAYOR WALSH, FORMER MAYOR WALSH TRYING TO REOPEN THE BRIDGE.

CAN YOU TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT THAT INVESTIGATION?

>> WE SENT A LETTER TO THE MAYOR AND I PAID THE MAYOR A COURTESY OF A CALL PRIOR TO SENDING THAT LETTER IT SAN INQUIRY.

AND I WILL BE IF WE FIND NOTHING, I WILL BE JUST AS VOCAL REGARDING OUR FINDINGS WHEN THAT OCCURS.

AND YOU KNOW, FOR US, JIM, IT'S BEEN REPORTED FOR YEARS THAT THERE HAVE BEEN POTENTIAL CONCERNS.

AND WHAT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE IS THAT NO VIOLATION OF THE AMERICAN WITH DISABILITIES ACT OCCURRED.

WE ARE HYPERFOCUSED, JIM ON THE OPIOID CRIES I QUITE FRANKLY.

AND PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT OUR NARCOTICS AND MONEY LAUNDERING UNIT HANDLE THE TRAFFICKING CASES OR HEALTH-CARE FRAUD GOES AFTER THE MANUFACTURERS OF OPIOID OR PHARMACISTS WHO DIVERT DRUGS OR NURSES WHO TAMPER OR DOCTORS WHO OVERPRESCRIBE OR HAVE PILL MILLS.

THEY UNDERSTAND THAT OUR CIVIL, CIVIL RIGHTS UNIT GOES AFTER THE TRIAL COURT OF THE HOUSE OF COLLECTIONS-- CORRECTIONS OR THE BURROW OF PRISONS OR PAROLE BOARD FOR MEDICALLY ASSISTED TREATMENT BUT THEY MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS ALSO ABOUT THE OPIOID CRISIS.

IF PEOPLE AREN'T GETTING ACCESS TO TREATMENT AND SERVICES, IF PEOPLE ARE HYPOTHETICALLY OR POTENTIALLY USING WORDS LIKE TRAFFIC AND CONGESTION IN EXCHANGE FOR ADDICTION ORTHOS PEOPLE, WE WANT TO KNOW WHETHER THAT IS TRUE OR NOT AND WE'RE GOING TO BE THOROUGH IN OUR INVESTIGATION.

>> Braude: BRIEFLY BEFORE YOU GO.

BEFORE YOU BECAME U.S. ATTORNEY A JUDGE IN NEWTON SHELLY JOSEPH WAS INDICTED FOR ALLEGEDLY HELPING AN UNDOCUMENTED DEFENDANT, EVADE ICE THORTDS IN HER COURT ROOM IT WAS ANNOUNCED I THINK BY YOUR OFFICE THE OTHER DAY THAT YOU HAVE BEEN RECUSED IN THE CASE.

YOUR OFFICE WILL CONTINUE TO PROSECUTE IT, BUT UNDER THE DIRECTION I THINK OF THE RHODE ISLAND U.S. ATTORNEY.

WHY ARE YOU RECUSED?

IS THAT, DID YOU MAKE THAT MOVE OR WERE YOU TOLD THAT YOU HAD TO RECUSE YOURSELF?

>> WHAT HATCHED WAS WHEN I BECAME OFFICIALLY BECAME THE U.S. ATTORNEY THERE WERE LISTS OF CASES THAT THERE WERE CONCERNS.

EITHER OF A CONFLICT OR AN APPEARANCE OF A POTENTIAL CONFLICT.

AND ULTIMATELY AFTER DISCUSSIONS WITH THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF U.S. ATTORNEY, I SAID YOU KNOW, RATHER THAN HAVE THIS BECOME A DISTRACTION ABOUT ME I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH MY FORMER COLLEAGUE HERE AND THE CURRENT-- RHODE ISLAND, OVERSEEING THIS CASE.

THIS ISN'T ABOUT ME, JIM, THIS IS ABOUT THAT THIS INDIVIDUAL THAT HAS BEEN CHARGED OR THESE INDIVIDUALS GET A FAIR TRIAL.

AND THAT THE PUBLIC BELIEVES THAT IT WAS FAIR AND IMPARTIAL AND NO ONE HAS THEIR FINGER ON THE SCALES.

I AM FINE-- .

>> Braude: THIS IS QUICKLY BECAUSE OF THE LITIGATION THAT WAS INITIATED BY YOU AND MIDDLESEX DA RYAN, I ASSUME, WHEN YOU WERE THE DA OF SUFFOLK.

>> YES, WHEN I WAS THE DA WE COMMENCED LITIGATION, A PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION AGAINST ICE THAT WAS SUCCESSFUL.

AND ULTIMATELY THE FIRST-- OVERTURNED THAT BUT RATHER THAN HAVE AN APPEARANCE OF IMPROPRIETY OR ANYTHING FOCUSED ON ME, I SAID ARE YOU IN VERY GOOD HANDS.

AND REMEMBER THE A U.S.A.

IN THIS OFFICE ARE STILL HANDLING THIS CASE.

>> Braude: I UNDERSTOOD.

>> BUT THEY ARE REPORTING TO MY COLLEAGUE IN RHODE ISLAND AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I SUPPORT WITH RESPECT TO WHAT THE THEY PROPOSED.

>> Braude: GOOD TO SIGH, THANK YOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTS, I APPRECIATE IT.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

NEXT UP, WHEN DONALD TRUMP WAS HELD IN CONTEMPT LAST MONTH FOR FAILING TO COMPLY WITH A CIVIL LAWSUIT SUBPOENA, IT SEEMED LIKE THERE MIGHT BE SOME CONSEQUENCE FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT-- THAT IS, UNTIL THE JUDGE ALMOST IMMEDIATELY ENDED FURTHER ENFORCEMENT OF THE ORDER, DESPITE TRUMP'S CONTINUED NON-COMPLIANCE.

IT'S A CYCLE WE'VE SEEN OVER AND OVER AGAIN THROUGHOUT TRUMP'S POLITICAL CAREER, AND EVEN BEFORE, WITH SEEMINGLY ZERO LEGAL OR POLITICAL FALLOUT FOR ANYTHING HE DOES, AS HE ONCE BOASTED ABOUT: >> I COULD STAND IN THE MIDDLE OF FIFTH AVENUE AND SHOOT SOMEBODY, AND I WOULDN'T LOSE ANY VOTERS, OKAY.

>> Braude: OF COURSE, WHEN HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS HELPED LEAD TO AN ATTEMPTED COUP, THINGS GOT A LOT MORE CONCERNING, NOT JUST FOR THE HERE AND NOW, BUT THE FUTURE OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

THAT ISSUE IS AT THE HEART OF A "BOSTON GLOBE" EDITORIAL SERIES PUBLISHED LAST SUMMER CALLED "FUTURE-PROOFING THE PRESIDENCY" WHICH MADE THE CASE FOR BREAKING WITH TWO CENTURIES OF TRADITION TO CRIMINALLY PROSECUTE THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

AND, EARLIER THIS MONTH, THE MAN BEHIND THAT SERIES, ABDALLAH FAYYAD, WAS NAMED A FINALIST FOR THE PULITZER PRIZE FOR THAT WORK.

HE JOINS ME NOW.

THAT SERIES, I SHOULD ALSO NOTE, WAS CO-EDITED BY DEPUTY EDITORIAL EDITOR ALAN WIRZBICKI DID I GET THAT RIGHT.

>> ALAN WIRZBICKI, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, BINA VENG TARMAN.

>> CONGRATULATIONS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME THANKS FOR INVITING ME ON.

>> Braude: YOU DIDN'T SAY HE SHOULD AND WOULD BE PROSECUTESSED BUT THAT HIS BEHAVIOR EXPOSED WEIGHSNESSES-- WEAKNESSES IN OUR DEM KRALTIC INSTITUTIONS AND PROPOSED REFORMS TO ADDRESS.

HIGHLIGHT TWO OR THREE OF THE WEAKNESSES THAT YOU ADDRESSED AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE REFORMS IN A MINUTE OR TWO.

>> WELL, TO BE CLEAR, THE REASON WE WROTE THIS SERIES WAS BECAUSE THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY WAS AN INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS THREAT ON OUR INSTITUTIONS AND QUITE FRANKLY OUR INSTITUTIONS FAILED AND WE WILL CONTINUING TO SEE THEM FAIL.

SO WE WROTE THIS TO LAY OUT A NUMBER OF RECOMMENDATIONS, A NUMBER OF STEPS FOR OUR GOVERNMENT TO TAKE, FROM CONGRESS TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION MORE BROADLY, NOR DID IT PREVENT THE RISE OF THE NEXT AMERICAN TYRANT OR NEXT DONALD TRUMP.

AND SO WE ASK CONGRESS, FOR EXAMPLE TO REVAMP OUR NEPOTISM LAWS SO THAT WE DON'T EMPLOY PEOPLE LIKE JARED KUSHNER, A REAL ESTATE BUSINESSMAN WHO HAS NO EXPERIENCE IN FOREIGN POLICY TO NEGOTIATE MIDDLE EAST PEASES DEALS OR BROKER DEALS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

THAT JARED KUSHNER WHO HAS NO HISTORY OR BACKGROUND IN MEDICINE, DOESN'T OVERSEE OUR COVID TESTS IN THE MIDDLE OF A PRAND.

THAT IS AN URGENT REFORM.

WE ALSO ASK FOR WHISTLE-BLOWER PROTECTION SO THAT WE CAN ENCOURAGE CIVIL SERVANTS TO BLOW THE WHISTLE WHEN THEY SEE SOMETHING REALLY DANGEROUS AND AUTO GRATEDDIC-- AUTO KRATDIC IN THE OFFICE.

WE ASKED DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO REWRITE THAT IT WILL NOT INDICT A PRESIDENT, WE UNDERSTAND THE RESERVATION WE DON'T WANT TO PROSECUTED A SITTING PRESIDENT BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE A CIRCUS AND YOU CAN'T REALLY GOVERN THE COUNTRY.

BUT YOU CAN INDICT A SITTING PROSECUTE AND PROGS CUTE HIM AFTER HE LEAVES OFFICE.

THERE IS NOTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION ABOUT THAT WE ASKED THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO REVISIT THAT IN ORDER TO SHOW FUTURE PRESIDENTS THAT THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES TO BREAKING THE LAW IN THE OVAL OFFICE, PARTICULARLY IF YOU ARE TRYING TO USURP AMERICAN DEMOCRACY AND OVERTURN AN ELECTION.

>> Braude: ABDULLAH BY MY ACCOUNTS AND THIS IS NOT A REFLECTION ON YOU, NOT ONE SINGLE REFORM THAT IS MENTIONED IN YOUR TERRIFIC SERIES HAS BEEN ENACTED.

IS THAT BY YOUR COUNT AS WELL?

>> I THINK THAT IS CORRECT.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN CONGRESS INSTALL ANY NEW GUARD RAILS.

THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS MADE SOME ADJUSTMENT, SMALL A JUMENTSES HERE AND THERE BUT NO MAJOR NEWS GUARD RAILS HAVE BEEN INSTALLED TO PROTECT US FROM SOMEBODY LIKE DONALD TRUMP OCCUPYING THE OVAL OFFICE.

>> Braude: YOU ALSO MENTIONED CONGRESS AND ITS OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL IL A COUPLE OF MINUTES AGO.

WHICH ISSUED THIS MEM DUMB YEARS AGO SAYING DON'T PROSECUTE A PRESIDENT.

THAT IS NOT LAW.

IT HAS NO FORCE OF LAW T IS PURELY GUIDE ANGSZ WHICH THE DIPTD OF JUSTICE HAS CHOTION INTO FOLLOW.

BUT THAT COULD BE CHANGED IN A SECOND.

AND WITHDRAWN SHOULD THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO.

THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE 60 VOTES IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE, CORRECT?

>> THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT, JIM.

THIS IS JUST A POLICY THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS TAKEN.

BECAUSE OF THAT LEGAL MEMO YOU MENTIONED.

AND WHEN ROBERT MUELLER STARTED HIS INVESTIGATION HE OPERATED UNDER THAT GUIDELINE.

THAT IS WHY HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY CONCLUSION WITH THE CONCLUSION COME OUT OF THE ROBERT MUELLER REPORT.

THAT IS WHY TRUMP WAVED IT AROUND AS THOUGH IT WAS AN EXONERATION T WAS NOT, MUELLER SPECIFICALLY SAID THAT HE WROTE THE REPORT TO PRESERVE THE EVIDENCE IN CASE PROSECUTEDDERS EVER WANT TO LOOK AT IT AFTER DONALD TRUMP LEFT OFFICE.

BUT HE WAS OPERATING UNDER THAT GUIDELINE THAT HE CANNOT INDICT A SITTING PRESIDENT BUT AS YOU SAY TWHR IS NOTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION ABOUT THAT, THERE IS NO LAW ABOUT THAT AT ALL THAT IS JUST A NORM THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS BEEN OPERATING UNDER FOR THE LAST 40 OR SO YEARS.

>> Braude: I DON'T WANT TO BE JUST MY NEGATIVE SELF FOR THE WHOLE HALF HOUR.

ONE AREA WHERE THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME PROGRESS WILL BEGIN TO FIND OUT ON JUNE 9th.

IS YOU ALSO SPOKE TO LACK OF EFFECTIVE COOKAL OVERSIGHT, AT LEAST SO FAR IT APPEARS THAT OTHER THAN A REFORM WHICH WOULD HAVE ALLOWED THE PRESIDENTS TO BE DEALT WITH OR THE VIOLATION OF THE SUSPECTS, THE IGNORING OF THE SPES TO BE ADDRESSED MORE EXPEDITIOUSLY BY THE COURT, ANOTHER REFORM YOU PROPOSE, THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE SEEMS TO BE TAKING OVERSIGHT REALLY SERIOUSLY, MUCH MORE SERIOUSLY THAN CONGRESS DID DURING TRUMP'S FOUR YEARS IN OFFICE.

WOULD YOU NOT AGREE?

>> I DO AGREE WITH THAT, AND THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE HAS BEEN DOING VERY IMPORTANT WORK.

UNFORTUNATELY THE JANUARY 6th KER CANNOT IF SELF HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE BUT WHAT IT CAN DO IS SHOW THE PUBLIC ESPECIALLY THROUGH THE PUBLIC HEARINGS WE WILL SEE NEXT MONTH.

CAN SHOW THE PUBLIC THE EVIDENCE THAT HAS BEEN ACCRUING OVER THESE LAST SIX MONTHS AS TO WHAT WENT WRONG, HOW IT WENT WRONG, WHO WAS PLOTTING TO BREAK THE LAW, IF PEOPLE'S INTENTIONS, AND THAT HOPEFULLY WILL CREATE THE KIND OF PUBLIC PRESSURE THAT IS REQUIRED TO INQUIRE-- INSPIRE OUR LEADERS TO AK TO INSPIRE PEOPLE IN CONGRESS TO PASS LAWS, AND TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE DOJ THAT THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THEY SHOULD LET GO OF.

>> YOU KNOW WHEN ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CONGRESS FOR A SECOND, THE REASON MI AS WITHOUT HOPE AS POSSIBLY I COULD BE ON ALMOST EVERYTHING ON YOUR LIST, THE ONE THING THAT WAS GOING THEY RECEIPTICALLY HAVE BY PART SAN SUPPORT WAS THIS ELECTORAL REFORM ACT WHICH WAS GOING DO NOTHING MORE THAN RAISE THE THRESHHOLD FOR A CHALLENGE TO THE ELECTORAL VOTES FROM A FEW TO A HIGHER NUMBER AND MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY MAKE CLEAR WHAT EVERYBODY NOSE EXCEPT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS SYCOPHANTS KNOW IS TRUE IS THE VICE PRESIDENT'S ROLE IS PURELY MINUTES TER YAL RATHER THAN DISCRETIONARY IN TERMS OF THE VOTE COUNTING.

AND THAT IS GOING NOWHERE DESPITE OFFICIALLY A LOT OF ELECTORAL SUPPORT.

IN TERMS OF THE PROGS PROSECUTION THING, WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ITSELF IS EVEN INVESTIGATING THIS THING.

IT HAS BEEN TERRIFIC OP EDS IN YOUR CASE WHO HAVE ARGUED THAT IT APPEARS THEY ARE NOT, WE KNOW ITS GRAND JURY IN MAN MAN HAS DI SOLVED.

-- IN MANHATTAN HAS DI SOLVED.

IT IT SEEMS THE ONLY THING PENDING AS FAR AS CAN I TELL UNLESS SOMETHING QUIETLY IS GOING ON IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENTS IN WASHINGTON IS THIS GEORGE GRA GAND JURY LOOK-- LOOKING INTO TO ME THE CLEAREST ON ITS FACE VIOLATION OF CRIMINAL LAW ON THE PART OF DONALD TRUMP.

BUT THAT'S IT ON THE CRIMINAL FRONT.

IS IT NOT.

>> ULTIMATELY WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THE DOJ IS LOOKING TOO BECAUSE THEY DON'T IMHENT ONION GOING INVESTIGATIONS.

>> Braude: TRUE.

>> THERE IS A CHANCE THEY ARE INVESTIGATING THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND A CHANCE THEY MIGHT BE PREPARING A CASE AGAINST THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

WE DON'T KNOW.

BUT WE DO KNOW THAT THERE IS MOVEMENT IN GEORGIA AND THAT AS WE SAID WAS A CLEAR VIOLATION OF THE LAW.

AND WE'LL SEE WHERE THAT GOES.

AS YOU MENTIONED IN THE SERIES, THE REASON THAT GEORGIA CASE IN PARTICULAR IS IMPORTANT, THE REASON THAT THE MO TENSION DOJ INVESTIGATIONS ARE IMPORTANT IN THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE IS IMPORTANT IS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT IT'S CRITS KAL FOR DONALD TRUMP TO BE NOT JUST HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR ANYTHING BUT TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE CRIMES THAT HE COMMITTED SPECIFICALLY IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

THE FINANCIAL CRIMES BEFORE HE WAS PRESIDENT, IMPORTANT TO ANYBODY WHO COMMITS FRAUD OR FINANCIAL CRIMES ACCOUNTABLE FOR COMMITTING THOSE CRIMES BUT FOR TRUMP IT IS TO EXTENDS A MESSAGE TO FUTURE PRESIDENTS, ADMINISTRATIONS AND THEIR STAFF THAT THERE ACTUALLY WILL BE CONSEQUENCES TO BREAKING THE LAW.

>> Braude: BUT IF I MAY, WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT.

I WOULD ARGUE THE MESSAGE IN TERMS OF CONSEQUENCES IS NOT ONLY ARE THERE NONE FOR EMBRACING LAWLESSNESS THERE ARE REWARDS, YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED LAST NIGHT, THOSE WHO EMBRACE THE LAWLESSNESS AND THE BIG LIE OF THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN WERE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL IN REPUBLICAN PRIMARIES.

AND THE CHERRY ON THE SUNDAE, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SAW THIS ONE, TRUTH SOCIAL, THE FORMER PRESIDENT HIMSELF I WAS GOING SAY TWEET, TROOTS HERE IS WHAT HE SAID DR. OZ SHOULD DECLARE VICTORY EVEN THOUGH IT IS A DEAD HEAT.

IT MAKES IT MUCH HARDER FOR THEM TO CHEAT WITH A BALLOT THAT THEY QUOTE JUST LAP TO FIND, SO POTENTIALLY THE MORAL OF LAST NIGHT'S STORY WAS EMBRACE THE WORST OF DONALD TRUMP AND YOU HAVE THE BEST SLOT OF BECOMING A REPUBLICAN OFFICE HOLDER.

WASN'T THAT WHAT WE LEARNED LASTER NIGHT-- LAST NIGHT.

>> THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM THAT THIS SERIES IS TRYING TO SOLVE.

AND THAT IS TO SHOW THAT THERE ACTUALLY ARE CONSEQUENCES.

AND RIGHT NOW I HOPE THAT LEADERS ARE, YOU KNOW, TREATING THIS WITH THE URGENCY IT INSPIRES BUT IF THERE REALLY SAN URGENCY THAT I FEEL LIKE IS LACKING WITH A LOT OF LEADERS IN WASHINGTON, I HOPE I'M WRONG BUT THE REASON WE WROTE THE SERIES IS TO SHOW REPUBLICANS TO SHOW PEOPLE IN OFFICE AND POTENTIAL DEMOCRATS IN OFFICE WHO MIGHT BE IN THE OVAL OFFICE AT SOME FUTURE DATE WHO WANT TO BE CORRUPT TO SHOW THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES TO BREAKING THE LAW AND BEING SO LAWLESS THAT IS ULTIMATELY THE POINT THE SERIES THAT IS WHY WE HOPE THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY TAKE IT UPON THEMSELVES TO IMPOSE THE LAW.

BECAUSE THEN THE MESSAGE THAT THEY'RE SENDING TO FUTURE HOLDERS OF THE OFFICE IS SEJLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

THAT YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING.

>> Braude: I HOPE WHAT YOU WROTE BRILLIANTLY IS ATTEMPTED AT REFORMS, THANKS FOR DOING IT, AND CONGRATULATIONS.

>> THANKS VERY MUCH.

WE TOUCHED ON THE SITUATION IN EVERETT A BIT EARLIER, BUT THIS IS NIGHT TWO OF MY DAILY REMINDERS ABOUT THE RAMPANT RACISM BY SOME CITY OFFICIALS.

TO REPEAT, THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE SERIOUS CLAIMS AGAINST CITY COUNCILOR ANTHONY DIPIERRO, AS WELL AS MAYORAL SPOKESWOMAN DEANNA DEVENEY, MAYOR CARLO DEMARIA.

NONE OF THE FACTS ARE IN DISPUTE-- NONE!

WE REACHED OUT PERSONALLY TO DIPIERRO, DEVENEY, AND DEMARIA, AND HAVE NOT RECEIVED A SINGLE RESPONSE.

WE ALSO REACHED OUT TO ENCORE BOSTON, THE CITY'S LARGEST EMPLOYER, TO ASK WHAT THEY PLAN TO DO ABOUT THIS.

SO FAR, WE'VE HEARD NOTHING, AND AS FAR AS WE KNOW, THEY'VE DONE NOTHING.

AND AGAIN, WE'VE FOUND NO PUBLIC OFFICIAL BEYOND EVERETT'S BORDERS SPEAKING OUT ON ANY OF THIS.

SO, WHY THE SILENCE?

IT'S A QUESTION WE'LL KEEP ASKING UNTIL THE PEOPLE OF EVERETT FINALLY GET THE ACCOUNTABILITY THEY DESERVE.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND STAY SAFE.

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