TIM: ON THE OTR BROADCAST THIS WEEK, FORMER STATE SENATOR JOE SCHWARZ IS HERE AS PART OF A MOVEMENT TO GIVE YOU MORE CANDIDATE CHOICES ON THE BALLOT.

OUR LEAD STORY, MICHIGAN'S ECONOMIC NUMBERS LOOKING A LITTLE CLOUDY.

ON THE OTR PANEL, CHUCK STOKES, STELLA YU AND CHAD LIVENGOOD.

SIT WITH US, AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT, OFF THE RECORD.

ANNOUNCER: PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY -- AND NOW, THIS EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

TIM: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

WELCOME BACK TO "OFF THE RECORD."

BIG NUMBERS DAY IN OUR TOWN.

CHAD, THE REVENUE IS NOT AS BRIGHT AS A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD LIKE IT TO BE.

>> EARLY ESTIMATES FOR TODAY'S CONSENSUS REVKNOWN AS CREC.

NOT SURE WHEN WE ADOPTED THAT ACRONYM.

THE SUMMIT WHERE THE ECONOMISTS OF THE STATE AND THE STATE BUDGET WRITERS GET TOGETHER TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS A REASONABLE EXPECTATION FOR REVENUE THAT'S GOING TO COME IN.

AND RIGHT NOW SOME O THE PROJECTIONS SHOW 3 BILLION LESS THAN THEY THOUGHT THEY'D HAVE ON HAND BACK IN JANUARY.

SO PEOPLE HAVE HEARD FOR MONTHS ABOUT THE $9 BILLION SURPLUS, THIS MOUNTAIN OF MONEY, THAT'S BASED ON REAL MONEY COMBINED WITH PROJECTIONS ON WHAT THE STATE THINKS IT'S GOING TO TAKE IN IN THE FISCAL YEAR THAT STARTS OCTOBER 1.

SO THIS IS IMPORTANT AS THE LEGISLATURE IS TRYING TO HAMMER OUT A BUDGET BEFORE JUNE 30, AND ALSO AS THEY TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW THEY'RE GOING TO FUND PET PROJECTS, WHICH IS FUN TO STUFF IN THE PROJECT.

TIM: IF YOU TAKE $3 BILLION OUT OF THE BUDGET, SOMEBODY'S GOT TO GIVE BACK SOMETHING, WOULDN'T YOU THINK?

>> YEAH, OF COURSE.

THESE PET PROJECTS, RIGHT, THAT CHAD WAS MENTIONING, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID THAT IT DIDN'T USED TO BE THIS BIG OF A REVENUE FOR THEM TO PLAY AROUND WITH, RIGHT?

AND NOW, YOU KNOW, SINCE IT'S PROJECTED TO BE 3 BILLION LESS THAN WHAT WE ESTIMATED IN JANUARY, IN A MILD RECESSION, MAY ALREADY BE HAPPENING.

THAT SHOULD BE A WARNING SIGN, SHOULD THEY CUT BACK ON SPENDING ON PET PROJECTS?

>> GOOD POINT.

THE GOVERNOR IF SHE HAS HER WAY, WOULD SPEND ALL OF THE COVID SURPLUS AND THEN SOME, DOWN TO $250 MILLION.

WASN'T THAT THE NUMBER?

>> RUN IT DOWN.

>> AND YOU GOT THIS IN THE BACKDROP OF THE FIRST MICHIGAN DEMOCRATIC TRIFECTA IN FOUR YEARS, DEMOCRATS WERE VERY EXCITED AFTER THE LAST ELECTION AND SAW THE MONEY THAT HAD COME IN FROM THE COVID RELIEF MONEY FROM WASHINGTON.

THEY SAID WE GOT TONS OF MONEY, EVERYBODY MADE THEIR WISH LIST AND NOW HAVING TO PARE BACK ON THE WISH LIST AND THAT'S GOING TO ANGER A LOT OF PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY TAKE THE ATTITUDE.

POLITICS IS SHORT-TERM.

THEY SAY, LOOK, WE GOT A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME TO GET ALL THESE THINGS SO I CAN BRING THE BACON TO MY DISTRICT.

NOW THEY HAVE TO GO IN AND THE GOVERNOR HAS TO MAKE TOUGH CHOICES.

TIM: WHAT WE'RE ASKING LAWMAKERS TO DO IS LOOK TO WHERE THEY DON'T WANT TO, IN THE FUTURE.

TERM LIMITS, FIVE YEARS OUT IS AN ETERNITY AND NOBODY CARES ABOUT THAT.

>> NOT LIKE THE SURPLUS IS ONE-TIME PROJECTS, BUT THE THING THAT MAKES PEOPLE FEEL NERVOUS IS THE ONGOING REVENUE AND WHAT THEY CAN EXPECT.

IF WE HAVE A RECESSION -- LET'S BE HONEST, INFLATION HAS FUELED WAGES, IT HAS FUELED SALES TAX RECEIPTS AND THAT HAS HELPED STATE GOVERNMENT, BUT THAT CAN'T GO ON FOREVER WE COULDN'T SUSTAIN OUR CHECKBOOKS, NOT SUSTAIN 8% INFLATION YEAR-OVER-YEAR, SO THIS HAS TEND TO AT SOME POINT, SO FOLKS HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS AND BUDGET HAD $700 MILLION LESS YEAR-OVER-YEAR SPENDING THAN THE GOVERNOR'S BUDGET, SO THE NEGOTIATIONS WILL BEGIN PRETTY SOON IN EARNEST AND THERE WILL HAVE TO BE DECISIONS WHAT NEW PROGRAMS OR INCREASES IN PROGRAMS DON'T HAPPEN.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE FUTURE.

I TALKED TO SANDY BREWER WITH THE CHAMBER AND MATT ELIOT WHO IS CHAIR FROM BANK OF AMERICA, HE'S A BANKER, USED TO DEALING WITH MONEY, THIS IS ONE OF THE TOPICS THEY'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT AT THE MACKINAW POLICY CONFERENCE.

LONG TERM, LET'S TAKE A LONGVIEW WHERE THIS STATE IS GOING.

IT'S GOING TO GET ATTENTION THERE, AND IT WILL GET WRITTEN UP, THE QUESTION IS WHAT KIND OF DECISIONS OR DO THEY MAKE LONG-TERM DECISIONS OR PUT PRESSURE ON THE POLITICIANS TO LOOK BEYOND THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS?

TIM: THERE IS MORE LONGER TERM THINKING GOING ON IN THIS LEGISLATURE BECAUSE TERM LIMITS HAS CHANGED, THE CLOCK HAS CHANGED, PEOPLE LIKE JOE TATE, THE SPEAKER, CAN SERVE ANOTHER COUPLE OF TERMS.

>> RIGHT.

TIM: THEY'RE NOT OUT OF HERE, AND THERE'S A LITTLE -- ESPECIALLY THE HOUSE MEMBERS.

YOU GET A SENSE, LOOK, WE COULD BE HERE TEN YEARS, AND HAVE A LONG RUN IN THE MAJORITY, BUT WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE WE PLAY OUR CARDS RIGHT HERE AND NOT SCREW THIS UP AND NOT RUN THE STATE INTO THE DRINK.

TIM: YOU WROTE PIECES IN THE UNION GETTING PAYBACK NOW THAT THE Ds HAVE CONTROL OF THE LEGISLATURE, THEIR WISH LIST IS THERE AND GETTING LONGER.

>> FOR SURE.

BASICALLY WE ANALYZE THE QUARTERLY FINANCE REPORTS THAT CAME OUT APRIL 25.

AND SOME OF THE MAJOR UNION SPENDERS LIKE THE REGIONAL COUNCIL FOR CARPENTERS AND MILL WRIGHTS, WE ARE SENDING THEM UP SPENDING THIS YEAR, OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

WHILE THEY WERE SPENDING, THEY WERE BASICALLY GIVING POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS HEAVILY LEANING TOWARD DEMOCRATS.

THAT IS 99% OF ALL THEIR SPENDING WENT TO DEMOCRATS, AND MEANWHILE, YOU SEE DEMOCRATS FAST TRACKING RIGHT TO WORK REPEAL IN MARCH.

TIM: BUT THEY GOT A BOATLOAD NOW OF MORE STUFF?

>> EXACTLY.

THEY'RE PUSHING FOR BILLS RELATED TO CAMPAIGN FINANCE, RIGHT?

IN THE HOUSE, THERE WERE A PAIR OF BILLS THAT ORIGINALLY WOULD HAVE ALLOWED UNIONS TO CIRCUMVENT CONTRIBUTION LIMITS BY EFFECTIVELY STEAK SEVERAL COMMITTEES, BUT THEN PARED IT BACK TO ALLOW AUTOMATIC PAYROLL DEDUCTIONS TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR UNIONS TO COLLECT POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS.

TIM: BY HAVING SOMEBODY ELSE COLLECT IT FOR THEM.

>> AND HAVING THE GOVERNMENT COLLECT IT FOR THEM.

HAVE THE STATE GOVERNMENT COLLECT MONEY OUT OF THE PAYCHECKS SO IT GOES RIGHT TO THE UAW AND AFSME.

THAT'S THE IDEA, IT WOULD HELP MAKE IT EASIER FOR UNIONS TO GET MONEY TO GIVE MONEY TO DEMOCRATS.

HELPING UNIONS LIKE THAT?

>> WELL, THERE WILL BE THOSE QUESTIONS RAISED, BUT ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES AND WE'RE WATCHING IT RIGHT NOW.

ALL THE THINGS THAT GOVERNOR SCHNEIDER TRIED TO PUT INTO PLACE ARE PUT BACK BY GOVERNOR WHITMER AND HER ADMINISTRATION.

THE UNIONS HELPED TO GET HER RE-ELECTED, PUT A LOT OF MONEY BEHIND HER CAMPAIGN AND THEY ARE SAYING THESE ARE THE THINGS WE WANT, AND SHE HAS TO DELIVER.

YOU'RE SEEING THESE BILLS COME FROM HER LEGIONS OF SUPPORTERS.

>> FRANKLY RIGHT TO WORK IS THE FLASHY LAW.

THESE OTHER ONES -- TIM: THE ONES THAT REALLY COUNT.

>> IT COUNTS, THE UNIONS.

HOUSE LABOR HAD A COMMITTEE ON SERIES OF BILLS MEANT TO HELP TEACHER UNIONS, UNDO A BUNCH OF LAWS PASSED IN 2011, 2012 THAT GREATLY RESTRICTED WHAT COULD BE BARGAINED BETWEEN SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS AND TEACHERS, SPECIFICALLY WHERE THEY ARE PLACED IN EACH CLASSROOM AND PERFORMANCE EVALUATION.

REMEMBER THAT FIGHT?

THEY WANT TO THROW THE EVALUATION OUT THE DOOR IN BARGAINING ARE CONTRACTS, SCHOOL DISTRICT BY SCHOOL DISTRICT.

THIS IS REALLY, REALLY BIG FOR THE MBA AND MEANS MORE ON A MEANINGFUL REASON FOR TEACHERS THAN THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF RIGHT TO WORK.

TIM: LET'S QUICKLY TURN TO THE SENATE RACE, VIS-A-VIS, THE SENATE RACE OF SLOTKIN, THE FRONT-RUNNER AT THE READ.

THERE ARE RUMBLINGS IN SEGMENTS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T ORDAIN SOMEBODY RIGHT HERE, THAT OTHER PEOPLE OUGHT TO GET IN?

>> NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND PEOPLE OF COLOR, NOT JUST AFRICAN-AMERICANS, WHO FEEL AS THOUGH ALYSSA SLOTKINS, CONGRESSWOMAN SELF-APPOINTED HERSELF TO BE THE NEXT SENATOR OF THIS STATE, AND THEY'RE SAYING WAIT A MINUTE, WAIT A MINUTE, WAIT A MINUTE, WE HAVEN'T HAD SERIOUS AFRICAN-AMERICAN REPRESENTATION FOR A LONG TIME IN THIS STATE AT THAT LEVEL.

AS YOU SAID BEFORE THE PROGRAM STARTED, YOU GOT TO GO BACK TO DICK AUSTYN OR TIOLA HUNTER RUNNING AS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR I THINK WITH LARRY OWEN, AND SAYING, AND THEY FEEL AS THOUGH THEY GOT SHAFTED IN THIS LAST REAPPORTIONMENT.

THERE'S NO JOHN CONYERS, NO BRENDA LAWRENCE, THEY DON'T HAVE THAT TYPE OF CLOUT AND INFLUENCE, AND SAY LOOK, IF THERE'S EVER A TIME SOMEBODY IS GOING TO RUN, PERHAPS IT'S NOW.

YOU SEE STATE REPRESENTATIVE LESLIE LOVE TOSSED HER HAT INTO THE RING.

HILL HARPER, THE ACTOR IS GETTING INTO THIS, HE'S SPEAKING AT A LOT OF DIFFERENT EVENTS, EMCEEING A LOT OF EVENTS AND COULD POSSIBLY GET MONEY FROM THE WEST COAST.

>> HILL HARPER IS THE ONE THE WATCH.

HE OWNS A HOME IN DETROIT.

WE REPORTED THIS WEEK TO PAY OFF A $24,000 TAX BILL, HE WAS BEHIND ON TAXES A YEAR OR TWO, AND HE OWNS A COFFEE SHOP IN DOWNTOWN DETROIT, THE ROASTING PLANT.

HE'S ESTABLISHED HIMSELF AS A DETROITER, ALTHOUGH HE'S AN ACTOR, FOR FOLKS WHO DON'T KNOW, HE'S ON THE GOOD DOCTOR, ONE OF THE FOLKS IN THE SHOW.

HE'S ISN'T A FULL-TIME RESIDENT, THERE WILL BE A CARPETBAGGER ATTACKS ON HIM IF HE GETS IN.

PAMELA PEW, MEMBER OF THE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION, IS EXPECTED TO GET IN.

THERE'S A CLAMORING TO CHALLENGE SLOTKIN, HARPER SEEMS LIKE THE ONE WHO CAN RAISE THE MONEY, SLOTKIN HAS 3 MILLION AND COUNTING.

THERE IS RESISTANCE AND SLOTKIN IS A HAWK.

NOT REALLY A LEFT-WING PROGRESSIVE BY ANY MEANS.

>> LET'S NOT FORGET IN ARAB-AMERICAN COMMUNITY, WHICH DETROIT HAS A GIGANTIC ARAB-AMERICAN COMMUNITY, NASIM BADUNE IS GOING TO RUN.

PEOPLE ARE NOT NECESSARILY ON THE BANDWAGON YET.

TIM: YESTERDAY, THE HEADLINE WAS THEY TROTTED AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WHO WAS PRAISING FOR AVAILABILITY.

AND READING THE HEADLINES, THEY'RE HEARING THE STUFF AROUND THE TABLE RIGHT NOW, AN THERE'S GOT TO BE SOME CONCERN?

>> YEAH, FOR SURE.

ALYSSA SLOTKIN, HAS BEEN AROUND.

SHE'S RUN FEDERAL RACES FOR SOME TIME.

SHE'S FAMILIAR WITH THE GAME.

STILL, WITH THIS MANY PEOPLE OF COLOR, LIKE CHAD AND CHUCK HAS MENTIONED, RUNNING AND ACTIVELY SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING OR ANNOUNCING LIKE LESLIE LOVE DID TO CHALLENGE HER, YES, IT JUST SHOWS THAT IT DOESN'T REALLY LOOK GOOD WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO ESTABLISH YOURSELF AS THE CANDIDATE FOR THE U.S. SENATE RACE.

TIM: IN OTHER WORDS, STAY TUNED.

LET'S GET TO FORMER STATE SENATOR JOE SCHWARZ HERE TO TALK ABOUT ANOTHER PARTY IN MICHIGAN.

SENATOR SCHWARZ, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

ONE MORE APPEARANCE, I CAN DECLARE YOU AS A DEPENDENT.

>> THAT'S THE TRUTH.

TIM: LET'S START WITH THE CURRENT STORY.

ANOTHER PARTY FOR MICHIGAN, WHY DO WE NEED ONE?

>> THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF NEW POLITICAL PARTIES ISN'T NEW, AND MICHIGAN CERTAINLY ISN'T UNIQUE IN THAT, AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD DO ANYTHING, IF A GROUP OF PEOPLE WANTS TO TRY TO FORM A PARTY AND GET THE NUMBERS AND THE ORGANIZATION TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO REGISTER AS A PARTY, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT.

TIM: IS THIS AN EFFORT TO NEGATE THE POWER THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THIS STATE?

>> NO.

TIM: WHY ARE YOU DOING IT?

>> PEOPLE WANT TO DO IT BECAUSE THEY HAVE SOME ISSUES THEY WANT TO TALK ABOUT, AND AS AN INDIVIDUAL, AS A VOTER, AS A CITIZEN OF MICHIGAN, I THINK IF SOMEBODY, IF THE FIVE PEOPLE SITTING AT THIS TABLE WANTED TO FORM A PARTY, FORM YOUR PARTY.

IT'S ALL RIGHT.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET ANYWHERE, BUT DO IT.

IT'S FINE.

>> THIS IS CALLED THE COMMONSENSE PARTY.

>> YES.

>> WHAT ARE THE BASELINE IDEALS OF THE COMMONSENSE PARTY IN MICHIGAN?

>> WE'RE JUST A BUNCH OF VERY PRACTICAL PEOPLE AND SMALL BUNCH OF VERY PRACTICAL PEOPLE, AND WE THINK SOMETHING MAYBE AWAY FROM THE TWO MAJOR PARTIES, WHERE PEOPLE COULD BE INTERESTED, THEIR VOICES COULD BE HEARD, IS A GOOD IDEA.

>> WHAT ARE THE GOALS AND OBJECTIVES OF THE POLITICAL PARTY?

>> THE GOALS AND OBJECTIVES ARE TO BE HEARD.

THE GOALS AND OBJECTIVES ARE TO PROMOTE ISSUES THAT WE MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN OR WILL BE INTERESTED IN, AND TO NOT BE FORCED IN THE CORNER, AND THAT'S A LITTLE TOO ROUGH LANGUAGE, BUT NOT BE PUSHED ASIDE BY THE MAIN PARTIES.

>> I'VE KNOWN YOU FOR A LONG TIME, THAT'S NOT REALLY ROUGH LANGUAGE FOR YOU.

IS THERE A GOAL TO ELECT A CANDIDATE FROM THE COMMON SENSE PARTY?

>> A CANDIDATE?

NO, NOT RIGHT NOW.

>> NOT TRY TO GET SOME THIRD-PARTY CANDIDATE IN THE SATEHOUSE?

>> THE HOPE IS, ALONG THE WAY, SOME INDIVIDUALS WILL BE INTERESTED IN RUNNING FOR OFFICE AND CHOOSE TO RUN IN AN INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY.

THAT WOULD BE FINE.

YOU KNOW, CHAD, THE IDEA OF A THIRD PARTY, INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY IS NOT NEW, NOT UNIQUE.

HISTORICALLY IT'S HAPPENED BEFORE, IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN, HOW FAR IT GOES, WE DON'T KNOW.

I THINK IT'S AN IDEA WORTH PURSUING.

>> IS THE BIGGER OBJECTIVE NOT SO MUCH TO HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION BUT MORE TO CHANGE THE LAW AND TO CHALLENGE THE LAW HERE IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN?

I WOULD SAY A LITTLE OF BOTH.

THE LATTER MAYBE MORE THAN THE FORMER RIGHT NOW.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE CHANCES ARE THAT THIS WILL ALMOST SURE GET TO THE STATE SUPREME COURT, THAT THEY'RE GOING TO RULE IN YOUR FAVOR?

>> I THINK IT WILL GET TO THE STATE SUPREME COURT.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE THEY'LL RULE IN YOUR FAVOR BASED UPON THE MAKEUP OF THE COURT.

>> I HAVE LEARNED OVER THE YEARS NEVER TO PREDICT WHAT THE SUPREME COURT WILL DO.

TIM: SO THAT'S A NO.

NO?

>> IT'S AN I DON'T KNOW.

>> WHAT EXACTLY IS IT THAT THE TWO EXISTING MAJOR PARTIES ARE NOT DOING ENOUGH, THAT YOU NEED THIS THIRD PARTY TO STEP IN?

>> I THINK THERE ARE SOME ISSUES THAT CAN COME UP THAT NEITHER MAJOR PARTY MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN PURSUING.

FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER.

AND SO THERE'S A THIRD PARTY AND THERE WILL BE OTHER PARTIES SAY OKAY, THIS IS OUR ISSUE.

FIX THE ROADS.

THIS IS OUR ISSUE.

BETTER MEDICAL CARE, THIS IS OUR ISSUE.

THE THIRD PARTIES WILL BY AND LARGE, I BELIEVE, BE SINGLE-ISSUE PARTIES.

>> DID PRESIDENT TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP, HIJACK THE QUOTE, UNQUOTE TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN PARTY OR WERE THE TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN PARTY, WERE YOU JUST OUT OF TOUCH WITH THE ELECTORATE?

>> THE TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN PARTY HASN'T EXISTED PRIOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE.

AND MANY, MANY TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS -- MYSELF INCLUDED -- HAVE NOT HAPPILY SAID WE CAN'T REALLY BE SUPPORTIVE OF THE PARTY AS IT NOW EXISTS.

SO OUR POLITICAL SENTIMENTS, OUR SUPPORT, ARE ELSEWHERE, AND ABSOLUTELY ELSEWHERE, PUT ON THE SPOT IS YET TO BE DETERMINED.

I THINK ANY TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN, SOMEONE WHO IS HISTORICALLY REPUBLICAN, WILL TELL YOU EITHER THEY'VE KIND OF BACKED OFF AND ARE NOT ACTIVE AT ALL ANYMORE, OR THEY'RE LOOKING FOR A NEW PLACE TO HANG THEIR HAT POLITICALLY.

WHETHER THAT LASTS A LONG TIME, I DON'T KNOW.

IT'S AN INTERESTING TIME RIGHT NOW.

TIM: SO SENATOR, IF IT'S DONALD TRUMP V. JOE BIDEN FOR PRESIDENT, HOW DOES THE GOOD DOCTOR VOTE?

>> I WOULD NOT VOTE FOR TRUMP, I DIDN'T VOTE FOR TRUMP AND I WILL NOT VOTE FOR TRUMP AGAIN FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS, WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO DISCUSS HERE.

PRESIDENT BIDEN IS A VERY NICE GUY.

HE'S A GOOD MAN.

TIM: YOU WORKED WITH HIM.

>> I LIKE HIM.

I DID WORK WITH HIM.

I DON'T KNOW WHEN ONE BECOMES AN OCTOGENARIAN AND MORE THAT ALL OF THE QUALITIES THAT YOU NEED TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ARE STILL THERE.

AS A RESULT, QUITE FRANKLY, I MUST SAY I HOPE, IF THAT HAPPENS, AND IF IT'S OBVIOUS TO US OUT HERE, VOTERS, THAT MAYBE PRESIDENT BIDEN IS NOT A GOOD IDEA TO RUN FOR THE SECOND TERM.

HE WOULD BE 86 YEARS OLD AT THE END OF HIS SECOND TERM.

IF IT'S NOT A GOOD IDEA, PERHAPS GRACEFULLY AND GRACIOUSLY BACK OFF AND ALLOW THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO NOMINATE SOMEBODY ELSE.

TIM: SO YOU THINK DOWN THE ROAD HE MIGHT MAKE THE DECISION THAT HE WOULD NOT RUN?

>> I THINK HE MIGHT, BUT THAT IS ME, AND THAT IS NOT KNOWLEDGE THAT I'VE GLEANED FROM ANYONE ELSE.

THAT'S WHAT I THINK.

TIM: BUT THE QUESTION IS STILL ON THE TABLE, ASSUME THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN AND HE'S ON THE TICKET, THEN DO YOU VOTE FOR HIM?

>> IF IT WERE BETWEEN BIDEN AND TRUMP IN '86 AND THOSE WERE THE TWO CHOICES, THE ONLY TWO CHOICES, I WOULD VOTE FOR BIDEN WITHOUT HESITATION.

>> IS ALL THIS TALK ABOUT AGE A FORM OF AGE DISCRIMINATION VERSUS EXPERIENCE AND WISDOM?

>> I'M A GENTLEMAN OF A CERTAIN AGE NOW, SO I THINK I CAN TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE OCTOGENARIANS AND DO VERY, VERY WELL.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE OCTOGENARIANS WHO DON'T DO THAT WELL, AND I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.

IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO RUN FOR OFFICE WHO'S UP IN YEARS, YOU'VE GOT TO TALK TO THEM.

ARE YOU UP TO THIS?

DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU CAN DO IT?

HOW IS YOUR KNOWLEDGE ON THE ISSUE?

YOUR AGE IS GOING TO BECOME AN ISSUE.

SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE.

YOU CAN'T KICK PEOPLE OUT.

THAT'S NOT FAIR, BUT BY THE SAME TOKEN, AGE IS A CONSIDERATION, AND WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN IN 2024, IT WILL BE A CONSIDERATION.

>> 20 YEARS AGO YOU WERE KICKED OUT OF THE LEGISLATURE BECAUSE OF TERM LIMITS.

>> YES.

>> IF THERE WEREN'T TERM LIMITS AND THE VOTERS OF CALHOUN COUNTY WOULD CONTINUE TO HAVE RE-ELECTED YOU, YOU THINK YOU MIGHT BE STILL IN THE STATE SENATE TODAY?

>> NO, I DON'T THINK I'D STILL BE THERE.

WERE I ABLE TO RUN FOR ANOTHER TERM BACK WHEN TERM LIMITS KICKED IN, THE END OF 2002, THE BEGINNING OF 2003, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE RUN FOR ONE MORE TERM.

WHETHER I WOULD HAVE RUN FOR ANY MORE TERMS THAN THAT, I DON'T KNOW.

I WOULDN'T STILL BE AROUND NOW.

>> AS YOU LOOK BACK ON YOUR TIME IN OFFICE, AND YOU CHAIRED HIGHER ED FOR MANY YEARS, APPROPRIATIONS.

>> YES.

>> WHAT'S ONE, LIKE, FAILURE YOU LOOK AT, AND YOU SAY I WISH I WOULD HAVE FIXED THAT?

>> LEGISLATIVE FAILURE?

>> YES, LEGISLATIVE FAILURE, SOMETHING YOU WISH YOU FOCUSED ON IN OFFICE?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I FOCUSED ON WHEN I WAS IN OFFICE WERE THE 15 STATE UNIVERSITIES, WHICH IN MANY WAYS INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY, ARE THE BEST GROUP OF STATE UNIVERSITIES IN THE UNITED STATES.

NO QUESTION IN MY MIND.

THE SUPPORT OF THE STATE UNIVERSITIES -- MSU, U OF M, WAYNE STATE, WESTERN IS KIND OF AN R-1 -- TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE WELL FUNDED, PHYSICAL PLANS ARE KEPT UP AND TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE ABLE TO PROVIDE, ESPECIALLY MICHIGAN STUDENTS, WITH A GOOD COLLEGE EDUCATION.

IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT MICHIGAN WITH A HUGE NUMBER OF OUT-OF-STATE STUDENTS THEY HAVE, MICHIGAN STATE WITH HUGE NUMBER OF OUT-OF-STATE STUDENTS THEY HAVE, THAT'S A FEATHER IN OUR CAP THAT PEOPLE WANT TO COME TO THESE UNIVERSITIES.

THAT IS ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT THE STATE.

OUR UNIVERSITIES.

WERE I STILL IN THE LEGISLATURE, I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT WOULD BE NUMBER ONE ON THE LIST.

TIM: SENATOR, WOULD YOU SPEAK TO THE TRUMP VOTER WATCHING THIS PROGRAM AND SPEAK TO THEIR KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT'S GOING ON?

>> YEAH, I WOULD SPEAK TO THEM, BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE ON TOPICS THEY'RE FAMILIAR WITH.

MY BACKGROUND, AS YOU KNOW IS MEDICINE, OBVIOUSLY, BUT AS I KNOW IS IN NATIONAL SECURITY, AS WELL AS IN THE MILITARY, AS A MEMBER OF THE DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, AND THEN AFTER THE MILITARY, WORKED FOR THE CIA, AND MY BIG, BIG DOUBT ABOUT TRUMP IS THE FACT, HIS INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS KNOWLEDGE AND POLICY IS WANTING, TREMENDOUSLY WANTING, AND NO KNOWLEDGE AS PRESIDENT.

MY FEAR IS, WERE HE TO BE RE-ELECTED, A MISTAKE WOULD BE MADE SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE THAT WOULD EMPOWER CHINA, EMPOWER RUSSIA, PERHAPS EMPOWER OTHER COUNTRIES WHO DON'T LIKE THE UNITED STATES AS MUCH AS I THINK THEY SHOULD, BUT THEY DON'T, AND GET US INTO A MESS.

A WAR, PERHAPS.

SOME OTHER KIND OF DIPLOMATIC MESS, PERHAPS.

TRUMP IS NOT UP TO THAT AND I BELIEVE WE NEED SOMEBODY IN THE PRESIDENCY WHO IS UP TO IT.

TIM: BUT THE TRUMP VOTER IS SO DEDICATED TO THIS GENTLEMAN, HE CAN BASICALLY DO NO WRONG.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

THAT'S TRUE.

THE TRUMP VOTER IS THAT.

SO YOU HAVE TO CORRAL ENOUGH -- HOW DO I SAY?

-- ANTI-TRUMP VOTERS BUT VOTERS WHO TAKE ALTERNATIVE TO TRUMP AND SAY THIS IS WHAT THE COUNTRY NEEDS.

>> YOU CAN ANSWER THIS AS DOCTOR OR PUBLIC POLICY PERSON OR BOTH.

IS THE ABORTION ISSUE, THE WOMAN'S CHOICE ISSUE, IS THAT POTENTIALLY THE DEMOCRATS' BEST WEAPON GOING INTO THE 2024 ELECTION?

>> IT'S GOING TO BE AN ISSUE, I CAN'T DESCRIBE IT AS BEST OR PLACE IT ON THE TABLE OF ISSUES.

OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE AN ISSUE.

AS WE GET CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE ELECTION, IT BECOMES MORE AND MORE AN ISSUE AS YOU'VE SEEN.

>> IT WILL BE AN ISSUE.

>> WHERE WOULD YOU PUT GUN CONTROL IN THIS NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION?

>> I'M NOT SURE AN ISSUE GUN CONTROL IS GOING TO BE.

IT'S ALWAYS OUT THERE.

THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THE 2nd AMENDMENT IS GOSPEL ARE GOING TO BE OUT THERE PUSHING NO CONTROLS WHATSOEVER ON WEAPONS, WHICH IS A MISTAKE, AND I SAY THAT, AGAIN, AS SOMEONE, TWO TOURS OF DUTY IN VIETNAM, CARRIED VERY DANGEROUS WEAPONS, AND IS FAMILIAR WITH THE WEAPONRY.

THESE WEAPONS, A LOT OF THE ONES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, ARE MILITARY WEAPONS, BUT STILL 18-YEAR-OLD, 19-YEAR-OLD KIDS WALKING AROUND WITH A .9 MILLIMETER IN THEIR HIP OR AR-15 ON THEIR SHOULDER IS RIDICULOUS, AND GETS US IN TROUBLE.

TIM: SENATOR, IN YOUR PRIVATE MOMENTS, DO YOU REGRET NOT BECOMING GOVERNOR?

>> REGRET?

NO, I DON'T SAY REGRET.

I RAN FOR GOVERNOR, I LOST THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY TO A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE.

GOOD FRIEND.

AND THAT WAS THE WAY IT WAS.

SO YOU MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE.

>> YOU'D HAVE BEEN A HECK OF A GOVERNOR?

>> I THINK I'D HAVE BEEN A HECK OF A GOVERNOR, BUT THEN I WASN'T CANDIDATE.

>> BUT YOU WERE OUT OF STEP WITH YOUR PARTY?

>> ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

I WAS OUT OF STEP WITH MY PARTY, NEVER BEEN TOTALLY IN STEP WITH EITHER PARTY.

THAT'S WHAT YOU GET FOR BEING AN INDEPENDENT THINKER, BUT THAT'S THE WAY IT IS, ALWAYS BEEN AN INDEPENDENT THINKER.

TIM: SENATOR, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

TIM: NICE TO SEE ALL OF YOU GUYS, TOO.

THANKS FOR A GREAT PANEL.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK FOR MORE "OFF THE RECORD" ANNOUNCER: PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY -- FOR MORE "OFF THE RECORD" VISIT WKAR.ORG.

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