>> Reilly: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": I'M ADAM REILLY, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

THE COLONIAL PIPELINE IS BACK ONLINE, BUT AT WHAT COST?

I'LL TALK TO THE AUTHOR OF "THIS IS HOW THEY TELL ME THE WORLD ENDS," NICOLE PERLROTH, ABOUT THE THREAT OF CYBERWEAPONS LIKE RANSOMWARE AND WHAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IS, AND OFTEN ISN'T, DOING TO STOP THEM.

THEN, LATER, THEY HELPED EDWARD MARKEY WIN HIS PRIMARY FIGHT AGAINST JOE KENNEDY.

NOW THE "NEW YORK TIMES'" ELLEN BARRY REPORTS A SO-CALLED "ARMY OF 16-YEAR-OLDS" IS TAKING ON THE REST OF THE DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT.

ELLEN AND TWO LOCAL ACTIVISTS HELPING LEAD THAT "ARMY" JOIN ME.

♪♪ >> Reilly: A WEEK AFTER THE COLONIAL PIPELINE CAME BACK ONLINE AFTER A CYBER-ATTACK THAT PROMPTED A SUDDEN FUEL SHORTAGE, PANIC BUYING, AND A SPIKE IN GAS PRICES ALONG MUCH OF THE EAST COAST, THE COMPANY'S C.E.O.

IS ADMITTING HE PAID A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR RANSOM TO THE HACKERS.

JOSEPH BLOUNT TOLD THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL," "I KNOW IT'S A HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL DECISION.

I DIDN'T MAKE IT LIGHTLY.

I WILL ADMIT THAT I WASN'T COMFORTABLE SEEING MONEY GO OUT THE DOOR TO PEOPLE LIKE THIS."

THE TOTAL?

75 BITCOIN, OR ROUGHLY $4.5 MILLION, WHICH HACKERS DEMANDED AFTER LOCKING COLONIAL PIPELINE OUT OF THEIR COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEMS IN WHAT'S APTLY KNOWN AS A RANSOMWARE ATTACK, THE LIKES OF WHICH WE'VE SEEN PLAGUE A TV STATION IN AUSTRALIA, THE NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE IN THE U.K., GLOBAL TELECOM GIANTS, AND PRIVATE CITIZENS CONCERNED THEIR PERSONAL DATA WOULD BE RELEASED.

THE COLONIAL PIPELINE C.E.O.

TOLD THE JOURNAL THAT PAYING UP WAS "THE RIGHT THING TO DO FOR THE COUNTRY."

MANY OTHERS AREN'T SO SURE.

IN FACT, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS LONG ADVISED COMPANIES NOT TO GIVE IN AND PAY THE RANSOM, ARGUING IT WILL ONLY INCENTIVIZE HACKERS TO ATTACK AGAIN.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO PREVENTING ATTACKS AND KEEPING AMERICAN COMPANIES AND CITIZENS SAFE, MY NEXT GUEST MAKES THE CASE THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOESN'T HAVE MUCH OF A LEG TO STAND ON.

NICOLE PERLROTH IS THE AUTHOR OF "THIS IS HOW THEY TELL ME THE WORLD ENDS: THE CYBER-WEAPONS ARMS RACE."

SHE'S ALSO A CYBER-SECURITY REPORTER FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES," AND SHE JOINS ME NOW.

>> Reilly: NICOLE, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Reilly: WE HAVE VIEWERS WHO WILL KNOW THE WORLD YOU DESCRIBE IN YOUR BOOK INTIMATELY, AND OTHER VIEWERS FOR WHOM IT IS TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR.

FOR THE LATTER GROUP, CAN YOU OFFER A LAY-PERSON-FRIENDLY EXPLANATIONS OF WHAT A CYBER-WEAPON IS?

>> SO A CYBER-WEAPON IS BASICALLY A CODE THAT EXPLOITS A VULNERABILITY IN OTHER CODES THAT DO THINGS LIKE TURN OFF YOUR URANIUM ENRICHMENT CENTRIFUGES OR TAKE OUT YOUR POWER GRID OR CONTAMINATE YOUR WATER SUPPLY.

AND AT THE MOST BASIC LEVEL, WE ARE FINDING THAT THERE IS ACTUALLY AN ENTIRE MARKET DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF CYBER-WEAPONS, AND THAT GOVERNMENTS ARE ONE OF THE BIGGEST SPENDERS AND SPONSORS OF THIS MARKET.

>> Reilly: I WANT TO GET SPECIFICALLY TO THE U.S. ROLE IN CREATING THIS WORLD IN JUST A SECOND.

BUT YOU START OFF THE BOOK IN UKRAINE TO CONVEY THE DAMAGE THAT WAS CAUSED BY A SERIES OF RUSSIA CYBER-ATTACKS A FEW YEARS AGO, ESCALATING CYBER-ATTACKS.

FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT REMEMBER THAT STORY, WHAT SORT OF TOLL DID THOSE ATTACKS TAKE?

>> SO IN 2017, WE DON'T KNOW WHO THEY WERE, WE JUST KNOW THAT A GROUP SHOWED UP ON TWITTER ONE DAY, THEY CALLED THEMSELVES "THE SHADOW BROKERS," AND THEY CLAIM TO HAVE STOLEN THE N.S.A.

BEST-KEPT CYBER-WEAPONS.

LO BEHOLD OVER AND BEHOLD THEY STARTED SEEPING OUT SOME OF THE ATTACKS.

ONE OF THE CODES WAS THE ETERNAL BLUE THAT EXPLOITED A VULNERABILITY IN MICROSOFT SOFTWARE.

RIGHT AWAY WE SAW NORTH KOREA PICK UP THAT TOOL AND BOLT IT ON TO THE RANSOMWARE AND SEND IT IN AN ATTACK THAT HELD UP U.K. HOSPITAL SYSTEMS.

PEOPLE WERE GETTING TURNED AWAY FROM URGENT CARE.

IT HIT UNIVERSITIES AND BUSINESSES ALL OVER THE WORLD.

FORTUNATELY THE NORTH KOREANS WERE PRETTY SLOPPY WITH THEIR CODE, SO A HACKER IN THE U.K. WAS ACTUALLY ABLE TO FIND A KILL-SWITCH TO TURN IT OFF.

BUT ABOUT A MONTH LATER, RUSSIA PICKED UP THE N.S.A.

'S TOOLS AND THEY FIRED IT IN AN ATTACK ON UKRAINE THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE RANSOMWARE, BUT IN FACT THERE WAS NO WAY FOR VICTIMS TO PAY ANY RANSOM THAT WOULD GET BACK THEIR DATA.

AND THEY HIT GOVERNMENT SYSTEMS, THEY HIT POSTAL SERVICE SYSTEMS, THEY HIT RAILWAYS.

PEOPLE COULDN'T GET MONEY OUT OF A.T.M.s.

THEY COULDN'T PAY FOR GAS.

AND EVEN THE RADIATION MONITORS AT THE OLD CHERNOBYL NUCLEAR SITE WERE FROZEN.

SO THEY HAD TO SEND PEOPLE OUT BY HAND TO MONITOR RADIATION LEVELS MANUALLY.

THAT CODE DIDN'T JUST HIT UKRAINE.

IT HIT ANY BUSINESS THAT EVEN HAD A SINGLE PERSON WORKING REMOTELY FROM UKRAINE.

SO IT ZOOMED AROUND THE WORLD.

IT HIT CADBURY CHOCOLATE FACTORIES IN KAZAKHSTAN.

IT HIT MERCK, AND MERCK ACTUALLY HAD TO TAP INTO THE C.D.C.

'S EMERGENCY SUPPLIES OF THE GARDASIL VACCINE BECAUSE IT WAS WIPED OUT.

FEDEX HAD SOMETHING LIKE $4 MILLION IN DAMAGE.

AND COMPANIES STILL HAVEN'T BEEN PAID OUT FOR THEM BECAUSE WHEN THEY TRIED TO FILE A CLAIM WITH THEIR INSURANCE COMPANIES, THEIR INSURANCE COMPANIES SAID, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THIS EXEMPTION IN YOUR CAUSE THAT SAYS IF YOU ARE COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN AN ACT OF WAR, WE DON'T HAVE TO PAY THIS OUT.

AND WE BELIEVE YOU WERE COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN AN ONGOING WAR BY RUSSIA ON UKRAINE.

>> Reilly: YOU MENTIONED THIS WAS RUSSIA USING A TOOL DEVELOPED BY THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION.

AT THE TIME THAT OUR DEFENSE ESTABLISHMENT WAS DEVELOPING OFFENSIVE TOOLS TO WREAK HAVOC WITH COMPUTER SYSTEMS AND COMPUTER-LINKED SYSTEMS IN OTHER PLACES, DID ANYONE SAY, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THIS ISN'T A GREAT IDEA AND THIS COULD COME BACK TO HAUNT US?

OR DID THAT AWARENESS NOT DEVELOP UNTIL RECENTLY?

>> I THINK STARTING IN THE SECOND BUSH TERM, SOMEONE MUST HAVE RAISED A RED FLAG BECAUSE THEY DID SET UP A VERY SECRET PROCESS AT THE TIME.

IT HAS A TERRIBLE NAME.

IT'S CALLED "THE VULNERABILITY EQUITIES PROCESS."

BASICALLY WHAT IT ENTAILS IS SOMEONE AT THE WHITE HOUSE, SITTING AROUND A BIG MAHOGONY TABLE, WITH REPRESENTATIVES FROM VARIOUS OTHER U.S.

AGENCIES IN THE N.S.A., AND ALSO PROBABLY D.H.S.

AND SOME OTHER CIVILIAN AGENCIES, WHEN THEY WOULD FIND A VULNERABILITY AND CODE THEY COULD USE FOR ESPIONAGE BUT COULD POTENTIALLY COME BACK TO HAUNT US, THEY STARTED HAVING THESE DEBATES ABOUT SHOULD WE REALLY BE HOLDING ON TO THIS?

AND IF SO, FOR HOW LONG?

AND WHAT ARE THE VARIOUS REASONS FOR THIS?

FOR MY BOOK, I WENT BACK AND INTERVIEWED SEVERAL OF THE PEOPLE WHO LED THAT PROCESS FOR THE WHITE HOUSE.

AND BASICALLY THEY SAID, WE'RE NOT GOING TO LIE TO YOU.

THIS IS MORE OF AN ART THAN A SCIENCE.

AND SOMETIMES THERE IS BLOOD LEFT ON THE TABLE; AND SOMETIMES WE REALLY REGRET SOME OF THE DECISIONS THAT WE MADE IN THOSE DISCUSSIONS.

>> Reilly: THAT'S A TERRIFYING ANSWER.

THE WHOLE BOOK IS TERRIFYING, THE ENTIRE TOPIC IS TERRIFYING.

IF WE HAD MORE TIME, I WOULD ASK YOU ABOUT THE BLACK MARKET THAT DEVELOPED IN FINDING THESE VULNERABILITIES BECAUSE IT IS A BIG PART OF YOUR BOOK AND IT IS REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING, BUT I WANT TO CUT TO THE CHASE, I GUESS.

THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK IS APOCALYPTIC AND TERRIFYING BY DESIGN.

CAN YOU FLUSH OUT FOR ME WHAT A WORLD-ENDING CYBER ATTACK MIGHT LOOK LIKE AND WHAT IT MIGHT DO?

>> WELL, I THINK THE BOOK IS REALLY MY LEARNING JOURNEY.

IN THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK, I'M BEING WARNED OF THIS CLAMATOUS ATTACK THAT WOULD LOOK SOMETHING LIKE A HACK OF AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL THAT WOULD SEND TWO PLANES COLLIDING INTO ONE ANOTHER OR COLLIDING INTO A BUILDING, LIKE 9/11.

AN ATTACK ON THE WATER SUPPLY, THAT WOULD BE THE MORE SILENT KILLER.

WHERE THEY COULD UP THE LEVEL OF CHEMICALS IN THE WATER AND BADLY POISON THE WATER SUPPLY FOR A LARGE METROPOLIS.

THOSE ARE SORT OF THE BIG WORLD-ENDING ATTACKS THAT PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT.

BUT BY THE END OF THIS SEVEN-YEAR JOURNEY, I SORT OF COME OUT IN A MORE NUANCED PLACE.

YOU KNOW WHAT?

THAT MIGHT HAPPEN.

IT IS IMMINENT.

WE JUST HAD AN ATTEMPT TO POISON THE WATER SUPPLY IN FLORIDA JUST AHEAD OF THE SUPER BOWL A FEW MONTHS AGO, AND FORTUNATELY SOMEBODY HAPPENED TO BE SITTING AT THEIR SCREEN AND CAUGHT SOMEONE MOVING THEIR CURSER.

BUT I ALSO THINK IT IS A DISTRACTION FROM WHERE WE ALREADY ARE, WHICH IS: A PIPELINE WAS JUST SHUTDOWN BECAUSE OF A RANSOMWARE ATTACK.

WE CAUGHT RUSSIA HACKING INTO OUR GRID.

WE CAUGHT THEM BREAKING INTO A NUCLEAR GRID IN TAMPA.

AND NOW WE'RE UNWINDS THIS SOLAR WINDS ATTACK, THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, EVEN THE NUCLEAR LAB, AND ON AND ON AND ON.

SO WHY ARE WE WAITING, REALLY IS THE QUESTION OF THE BOOK?

WHY ARE WE WAITING TO SHORE UP OUR CYBER-DEFENSES?

ARE WE JUST GOING TO WAIT FOR THE PLANES TO CRASH IN A HACK OF AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL?

OR CAN WE LOOK AT WHERE WE ALREADY ARE AND START SERIOUSLY RECALIBRATING CYBER SECURITY.

>> Reilly: WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ODDS ARE THAT PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT WILL DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU JUST SUGGESTED?

>> I ACTUALLY AM MORE HOPEFUL RIGHT NOW THAN I EVER HAVE BEEN.

TO SEE AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT GET UP THERE LAST WEEK, GO TO THE PODIUM AND TALK ABOUT A RANSOMWARE ATTACK IS UNPRECEDENTED.

THAT IS PROGRESS.

AND TO CALL OUT RUSSIA FOR BEING A SAFE HAVEN FOR A LOT OF THIS ACTIVITY.

THAT'S PROGRESS.

WE DEPUTY DIDN'T SEE THAT IN THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION.

THE OTHER THING IS, WE NOW HAVE A NATIONAL CYBER-DIRECTOR POSITION.

CHRIS ENGLIS IS THE GUY NOMINATED FOR THAT POSITION.

HE REALLY IS THE RIGHT GUY FOR THE JOB.

WE HAVE AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT LOOKS GOOD ON PAPER BUT WILL CLEARLY COME DOWN TO EXECUTION.

AND I DO THINK WE'RE PUTTING SOME OF THE BEST PEOPLE IN PLACE TO DO THIS.

THERE IS NO SILVER BULLET.

THESE ARE REALLY HARD PROBLEMS.

OUR CYBER-VULNERABILITY IS EXTREMELY VAST AND ONLY GETTING MORE SO AS WE PLUG IN MILLIONS MORE DEVICES TO THE INTERNET, AND SO MUCH MORE CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT I AM VERY HOPEFUL THAT THE RIGHT PEOPLE ARE IN POSITION TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS.

>> Reilly: REALLY QUICKLY, IS THERE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT FOR TAKING THIS SERIOUSLY AT THIS POINT?

>> I THINK YES.

I THINK THERE IS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

THE BIG THING IS 85% OF AMERICA'S CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE IS OWNED AND OPERATED BY THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

TRADITIONALLY THE G.O.P.

HAS SAID WE DON'T WANT ANY REGULATION, EVEN IT IS JUST MANDATING THEIR CYBER SECURITY.

BUT I THINK THAT WILL CHANGE.

>> Reilly: I FEEL MARGINALLY LESS TERRIFIED AFTER TALKING TO YOU.

THANK YOU FOR MAKING THE TIME TO DISCUSS THIS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>> THE BOOK, AGAIN, IS "THIS IS HOW THEY TELL ME THE WORLD ENDS: THE CYBER-WEAPONS ARMS RACE."

>>> NEXT UP, WHEN EDWARD MARKEY WAS CHALLENGED BY JOE KENNEDY IN LAST YEAR'S DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY, HE GOT A BIG BOOST THAT ALMOST NOBODY HAD SEEN COMING: INTENSE SUPPORT FROM YOUNG POLITICAL ACTIVISTS -- IN SOME CASES TOO YOUNG TO VOTE -- WHOSE EFFORTS HELPED MARKEY WIN BIG IN A RACE HE WAS ORIGINALLY EXPECTED TO LOSE.

TOWARD THE END OF THAT CAMPAIGN, MARKEY GAVE THOSE YOUNG SUPPORTERS A STARRING ROLE IN HIS GREEN NEW DEAL-MAKER AD, PRAISING THEM FOR PUTTING PRESSURE ON THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT.

>> WE ASKED WHAT WE COULD DO FOR OUR COUNTRY.

WE WENT OUT.

WE DID IT.

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, IT'S TIME TO START ASKING WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU.

>> Reilly: BUT NOW RELATIONS BETWEEN THE SENATOR AND THE SO-CALLED "MARKEY-VERSE" HAVE COOLED, WITH MANY OF HIS YOUTH FULL BACKERS CALLING HIM OUT PUBLICLY FOR HIS STANCE ON ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

IT'S A CASE STUDY IN THE RISING POWER OF YOUNG ACTIVISTS HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, AND HOW THEY SEE THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH POLITICIANS THEY HELP ELECT.

IN A NEW "NEW YORK TIMES" STORY, "AN ARMY OF 16-YEAR-OLDS TAKES ON THE DEMOCRATS," PULITZER PRIZE WINNER ELLEN BARRY DIGS INTO THE TOPIC.

I'M JOINED NOW BY ELLEN BARRY AND TWO MEMBERS OF THE ARMY IN QUESTION, LILLIAN GIBSON, WHO WORKED TO ELECT MARKEY AND IS NOW FOCUSED ON BOSTON'S MAYORAL RACE AS THE HEAD OF YOUTH FOR MICHELLE WU; AND CALLA WALSH, WHO'S PART OF THE ONGOING PUSH TO PRESSURE MARKEY ON THE MIDDLE EAST.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: ELLEN, LET ME START WITH YOU.

HAVING SPENT SOME TIME ON THIS TOPIC, WHAT ARE THE BIGGEST WAYS YOU SEE THAT PEOPLE LIKE LILLIAN AND CALLA ARE CHALLENGING BASIC ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE WAY POLITICS IS SUPPOSED TO WORK?

>> WELL, I MEAN I THINK ONE BIG WAY IS CHALLENGING OUR SORT OF HISTORIC EXPECTATIONS ON TURNOUT.

I THINK IF YOU BEGIN TO LOOK AT HOW TURNOUT, ESPECIALLY FOR PRIMARY ELECTIONS, WHERE THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRADITIONALLY A PRETTY LOW TURNOUT, THE PATTERN HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, IT'S LIKE A HOCKEY STICK, WHERE IN 2016 YOU HAD SOMETHING LIKE A 2% TURNOUT OF 18 TO 24-YEAR-OLDS, AND THEN LAST YEAR, YOU HAD, I THINK, ALMOST 20%.

SO IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY CHANGE IN WHO IS VOTING.

SO I WOULD SAY THAT'S THE BIGGEST ONE.

I THINK THE SECOND IS THAT THERE IS AN ABILITY OF THE GRASSROOTS TO KIND OF SHAPE A MEDIAN NARRATIVE ABOUT THE RACE AND THE CANDIDATES, WHICH HASN'T EXISTED BEFORE.

>> Reilly: LILLIAN, WHAT DO YOU -- BY THE WAY, I SHOULD ASK: HOW LONG HAVE YOU LED YOUTH FOR WU, THE GROUP YOU'RE LEADING?

>> SINCE SEPTEMBER, RIGHT BEFORE MICHELLE ANNOUNCED HER RUN.

>> Reilly: SO YOU'VE BEEN WORKING WITH THE CAMPAIGN FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW.

FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE, WHAT DO YOU SEE YOU AND THE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT YOU WORK WITH IN THAT GROUP, OR SUB GROUP, OFFERING THE WU EXPLAIN THAT THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE GOTTEN OTHERWISE?

>> I THINK IT IS INTERESTING TO SEE A YOUTH ENGAGEMENT.

I THINK YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SHARING UNIQUE WAYS TO SHARE INFORMATION ABOUT HER POLICY.

WE'VE HAD GROUPS TO EDUCATE BOTH YOUTH IN HIGH SCHOOL TO COLLEGE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT HER DIFFERENT POLICY PLANS, AND WE'VE ALSO JUST BEEN ABLE TO HAVE A DIFFERENT SECTION OF THE CAMPAIGN AND GAIN INTEREST FROM A DIFFERENT AREA THAT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO.

>> Reilly: WHAT'S A TYPICAL WEEK FOR YOU WORKING WITH THE WU CAMPAIGN?

I'M WONDERING ABOUT THE SORT OF STUFF YOU DO ON A TYPICAL WEEK, IF THERE IS A TYPICAL WEEK, AND ALSO HOW MANY HOURS YOU END UP INVESTING?

>> I ATTEND TWO MEETINGS, ONE WITH THE CAMPAIGN AND ONE WITH THE LEADERSHIP TEAM FOR YOUTH, FOR APPROXIMATELY TWO HOURS.

DEPENDING ON EVENTS WE HAVE, IT COULD INCREASE TO SIX OR PLUS HOURS A WEEK.

AND I WORK HEAVILY WITH MAKING GRAPHICS, SO THAT'S A FOCUS I GIVE TO YOUTH FOR WU.

I SPEND TIME ON THAT AS WELL.

>> Reilly: WHEN I THINK OF THE WU CAMPAIGN LOGO, AND I DON'T WANT TO GET IT WRONG, I THINK OF SORT OF A QUICKLY SCRAWLED -- SCRAWLED MAKES IT SOUND LIKE IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD, AND IT DOES, BUT WU THAT CONVEYS ENERGY.

ARE YOU IN ANY WAY CONNECTED TO THAT LOGO?

>> NO, I AM NOT.

BUT SINCE THEY LAUNCHED, THEY'VE HAD A GRAPHICS TOOL TO MAKE CONTACT, AND IT IS GREAT TO SEE WITH THE LOGO.

>> Reilly: ONE FINAL QUESTION TO YOU, AND THEN I'LL TURN TO CALLA: WHAT WAS IT THAT MADE YOU DECIDE THE WU CAMPAIGN IS THE ONE YOU WANTED TO WORK WITH?

>> I ATTENDED A LAUNCH OF MICHELLE'S GREEN NEW DEAL BACK IN AUGUST, AND SEEING HER WANTING TO REALLY TAKE CHARGE AND CHANGE WHAT CITY GOVERNMENT DOES, THAT ORIGINALLY INTERESTED ME.

AND SEEING THE COMMUNITIES THAT WERE MOST IMPACTED BY CLIMATE MEANT A LOT TO ME, LIVING IN DORCHESTER.

SO THAT IS WHAT ORIGINALLY ATTRACTED ME.

AND ALSO HER WORK AGAINST THE BPDA -- HER CALLING THAT INSTITUTION OUT.

>> Reilly: THE BOSTON PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT AGENCY, FOR VIEWERS WHO MAY NOT KNOW IT.

CALLA, LET ME ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION: WHEN YOU BECAME AS DEEPLY INVOLVED IN MARKEY'S CAMPAIGN, WHAT WAS IT THAT MADE YOU SIGN ON WITH HIM, RATHER THAN WITH HIS OPPONENT OR SITTING OUT THE RACE?

>> THANKS FOR THE QUESTION, ADAM.

I ACTUALLY GOT INVOLVED WITH POLITICS IN THE SUMMER OF 2019.

AND THAT WAS THROUGH CLIMATE ORGANIZING.

I WAS ORGANIZING FOR THE BOSTON CLIMATE STRIKE, WHICH WEIGH INWHICH WAS IN SEPTEMBER OF 2019.

AND SENATOR MARKEY DID NOT JUST SHOW UP TO TAKE A PICTURE, BUT HE WAS BEHIND THE POLICY WERE WE WERE PUSHING, THE GREEN NEW DEAL.

AFTER COVID BEGAN, I HAD JUST RECENTLY GOTTEN OFF THE WARREN PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

A LOT OF MY FRIENDS HAD JUST GOTTEN OFF THE WARREN PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN OR THE BERNIE CAMPAIGN, AND WE WERE LOOKING TO WHERE WE COULD DIRECT OUR ENERGY AND ORGANIZE FOR ANOTHER PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATE SPECIFICALLY IN MASSACHUSETTS, AND WHAT BETTER CANDIDATE THAN EDWARD MARKEY, WHO WAS BEING CHALLENGED BY A WEALTHY POLITICAL DYNASTY, WHO WAS A CHAMPION OF SO MANY ISSUES WE CARED ABOUT, MEDICARE FOR ALL, WHICH WE THOUGHT WE HAD LOST HOPE FOR BUT COULD STILL FIGHT FOR IN OUR OWN STATE.

>> Reilly: LET ME TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE SHIFT THAT OCCURRED WITH YOU AND MANY OTHER YOUNG MARKEY SUPPORTERS.

WHEN YOU REVEALED THE OPEN LETTER CALLING OUT HIS POSITION ON ISRAEL AND PALESTINE, DID YOU TRY APPROACHING THE CAMPAIGN OR MARKEY'S OFFICE BEHIND THE SCENES TO LET HIM KNOW ABOUT YOUR FRUSTRATION, OR DID YOU DECIDE WHAT HE SAID JUST DOESN'T WORK FOR US AND WE'RE GOING TO LET PEOPLE KNOW THAT PUBLICLY RIGHT NOW?

>> YEAH.

SO WE HAD ACTUALLY BEEN PRESSURING THE OFFICE PUBLICLY, MAINLY THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA, WHICH IS OUR MOST NATURAL FORM OF COMMUNICATION, WITH THE OFFICE AND THE STAFF AND THE SENATOR HIMSELF BEFORE THE STATEMENT WAS EVEN RELEASED.

I GUESS WE WERE REALLY DISAPPOINTED THAT AFTER SO MANY DAYS OF US PRESSURING HIM TO JUST SAY SOMETHING, HE RELEASED SOMETHING TO US THAT WAS VERY DISAPPOINTING, THAT DID NOT PLACE ENOUGH BLAME ON ISRAEL FOR INSTIGATING THE VIOLENCE IN GAZA.

WE DECIDED A LETTER WOULD BE A REALLY GREAT APPROACH BECAUSE WE'RE NOT AS REALLY CONNECTED AS MANY LOBBYISTS ARE.

WE DON'T HAVE THE MONEY.

WE DON'T HAVE LOBBYISTS.

WE ARE MAINLY A GROUP OF YOUNG PEOPLE, ORGANIZERS, JUST ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND WORKING ON THE GROUND.

SO WE THOUGHT A LETTER WOULD BE A GREAT WAY TO INCREASE PRESSURE BECAUSE WE COULD GET SO MANY PEOPLE WHO ONLY GOT INVOLVED WIN THE CAMPAIGN BECAUSE IT WAS SO ACCESSIBLE TO SIGN ON.

WE WERE ABLE TO GET OVER 1,000 SIGNATURES, INCLUDING FORMER CAMPAIGN STAFF, AND ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE SUNRISE MOVEMENT.

>> Reilly: HOW LIKELY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT YOU'RE GOING TO, IN FACT, GOING TO BE ABLE TO SHIFT HIS STANCE AT ISRAEL AND PALESTINE?

>> I'M NOT REALLY SURE.

BUT I'M OPTIMISTIC.

I'VE BEEN THINKING A LOT BACK TO SENATOR MARKEY'S VICTORY SPEECH, AND ONE PHRASE HE KEPT USING WAS "JUSTICE" WAS ON THE BALLOT.

AND TO ME THIS FEELS LIKE SUCH A CLEAR ISSUE OF JUSTICE AND INJUSTICE.

IT IS A CLEAR ISSUE OF HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES, APARTHEID, AND FOR SOMEONE WHO TALKS SO MUCH ABOUT JUSTICE, I FEEL LIKE IT SHOULD BE REALLY CLEAR TO THE SENATOR AND HIS OFFICE, AND I HOPE HE IS ABLE TO REALIZE THAT SOON.

>> Reilly: ELLEN BARRY, YOU QUOTED A FEW SEASONED POLITICAL PROFESSIONALS IN YOUR PIECE TALKING ADMIRING ABOUT LILLIAN AND CALLA AND THEIR CO-HORT.

AND YOU ALLUDED TO OTHER PEOPLE, CONSULTANTS, THAT SORT OF THING, WHO DIDN'T WANT TO GO ON THE RECORD SAYING ANYTHING THAT MIGHT BE PERCEIVED AS NEGATIVE IN PART, IF I READ IT CORRECTLY, BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID OF WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES WOULD BE.

THEY WERE AFRAID IT MIGHT NOT GO IN THEIR FAVOR.

WHAT WOULD THE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN SKEPTICAL OR CRITICAL, WHAT KIND OF POINTS DID THEY RAISE ON BACKGROUND WITH YOU?

>> SO IT SHOULD BE SAID THAT POLITICAL STRATEGISTS ARE NOT SUPER ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT BEING ON THE RECORD TO BEGIN WITH ABOUT ANYTHING.

>> Reilly: YEP.

>> SURE.

I HAD A NUMBER OF CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE REPRESENTED, OR WILL REPRESENT, CANDIDATES THAT ARE IN THE PROGRESSIVE WORLD.

AND I THINK THERE IS DEFINITELY A FEAR THAT YOUR CANDIDATE COULD BE THE NEXT JOE KENNEDY, THAT YOU COULD FIND THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS FRAMED THE -- SORT OF FRAMED THE NARRATIVE AROUND THE RACE, AND THERE IS NOT MUCH YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

SO IN THE MARKEY-KENNEDY RACE, YOU STILL HEAR A LOT OF PEOPLE SAYING, WE'VE KNOWN MARKEY FOR 44 YEARS, HE HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME, AND HE IS NOT THE SORT OF LEFT ICON THAT HE CAME OUT AS, THAT THERE WAS A KIND OF SELECTIVE FOCUS ON PARTS OF HIS RECORD THAT IGNORED OTHER PARTS OF HIS RECORD, LIKE HIS FOREIGN POLICY HISTORY.

SO THAT IS ONE THAT THERE IS AN OVERSIMCATION OVERSIMPLIFICATION AND DISTORTION OF THE RECORD.

THE OTHER IS THE LEFT KIND OF GOING AFTER ITS OWN SIDE, THAT A LOT OF TIMES THE TARGETS OF THE MARKEY-VERSE ARE PEOPLE WHO COULD BE CALLED PROGRESSIVES, OR THEY'RE, YOU KNOW -- AND I THINK THE FEAR IS THAT IT'S KIND OF TAKING DOWN PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF THE FUTURE OF YOUR PARTY.

>> Reilly: LET ME ASK YOU BOTH, LILLIAN AND CALLA, IN THE DESCRIPTION THAT ELLEN JUST GAVE, THERE IS CLEARLY, I WOULD SAY, A LOT OF ADMIRATION, SOME OF THE GRUDGING, FOR THE AMOUNT OF POWER THAT YOU GUYS NOW WIELD IN THE DEMOCRATIC LANDSCAPE.

DO YOU HAVE ANY COMMENT OR RESPONSE TO SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT SOME OF ELLEN'S SOURCES RAISED WITH HER NOT ON THE RECORD?

>> WELL, SOMETHING THAT THEY CRITICIZED US FOR WAS THAT THIS WAS SOME SORT OF COORDINATED ATTACK OPERATION TO PUSH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO THE LEFT.

AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY FUNNY SINCE THEY THOUGHT THAT WAS AN INSULT TO US, BUT THAT'S BASICALLY HOW WE DESCRIBE WHAT WE'RE DOING, THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO PUSH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO THE LEFT.

SO IF YOU TALK ABOUT IF WE'RE ATTACKING PEOPLE ON OUR OWN SIDE, IN SOME WAYS WE DON'T VIEW THOSE PEOPLE ON OUR SIDE BECAUSE WE DO FUNDAMENTALLY DISAGREE WITH THEM ON A LOT OF DIFFERENT ISSUES.

AND ON A LOT OF DIFFERENT ISSUES THEY'RE MORE SIMILAR TO REPUBLICANS THAN WE ARE TO THEM.

>> Reilly: LILLIAN, I'D LOVE TO GET YOUR TAKE ON THIS.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE ANY OF THE CONCERNS THAT ELLEN'S SOURCES MENTIONED THAT SHE JUST DESCRIBED HAVE ANY MERIT, OR NOT SO MUCH?

>> H'MMM, I WOULD SAY THAT I THINK THAT YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CALLING OUT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE AND INSTITUTIONS THAT THEY DISAGREE WITH.

AND I THINK THAT THE MARKEY-VERSE JUST HAD STRENGTH THIS TIME AND CONTINUE TO CALL OUT PEOPLE WHO WE DON'T AGREE WITH.

BUT I THINK IT SHOULDN'T BE A SURPRISE THAT WITH SOCIAL MEDIA AND WITH THE TWITTER LANDSCAPE THAT PEOPLE COULD ENERGIZE A WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE AND MAKE A CHANGE.

SO I THINK IT IS A POSITIVE THING.

I THINK PEOPLE VIEW IT IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

I THINK YOUNG PEOPLE ORGANIZING FOR MANY ISSUES, NOT JUST FOR THEIR CANDIDATE AT ONE TIME, IS REALLY IMPORTANT, AND MAKING SURE TO HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE.

>> Reilly: ONE MORE QUESTION FOR LILLIAN AND CALLA -- IF THERE ARE POLITICIANS WHO MIGHT BE WATCHING THIS INTERVIEW WHO ARE THINKING, I'D LOVE TO TAP INTO THAT KIND OF ENERGY.

I THINK THEY WOULD RESPOND WELL TO SOME OF THE THINGS I BRING TO THE TABLE.

WHAT SORT OF CANDIDATES WOULD YOU SAY YOU AND YOUR PEERS ARE LOOKING FOR AND EAGER TO WORK WITH?

>> YEAH, I THINK PEOPLE THAT CENTER EQUITY, I THINK THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME PERSONALLY.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR CANDIDATES TO BE OPEN TO HEARING AND SUPPORTING YOUNG PEOPLE WITHIN COMPAIGNS.

I THINK YOU CAN JUST REPLICATE WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE MARKEY-VERSE, BUT IF YOU INVEST LISTENING TO YOUNG PEOPLE AND VALUING THEIR TIME AND ENERGY, THAT YOU CAN DELIVER.

I THINK IF IT IS CLEAR YOU VALUE PROGRESSIVE POLICIES AND ARE WILLING TO, YOU KNOW, TAKE IN THE COMMUNITY FEEDBACK AND REALLY TRY TO HAVE A PLATFORM THAT IS INCLUSIVE AND THAT SORT OF PUSHES AGAINST THE MOLD, I THINK THAT DEFINITELY ATTRACTS YOUNG PEOPLE AND COULD BE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR TO WHAT HAPPENED THIS SUMMER.

>> Reilly: CALLA, YOU GET THE LAST WORD.

>> I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH LILLIAN.

THIS IS THE QUESTION I GOT A LOT AFTER THE SEPTEMBER 1st PRIMARY.

OFTEN THIS QUESTION WOULD COME FROM MODERATE POLITICIANS, AND MY RESPONSE WOULD BE: NONE OF THESE STRATEGIES ARE GOING TO WORK IF YOU'RE NOT ALREADY FIGHTING FOR YOUNG PEOPLE WITH YOUR VALUES.

I WOULD SAY I THINK ANY PROGRESSIVE YOUTH-ORIENTED STATUE WORKS IF YOU WANT TOVTO HAVE A PROGRESSIVE PLATFORM.

YOU CAN SAY I SUPPORT THE GREEN NEW DEAL, BUT IF YOU'RE NOT PAYING YOUR INTERNS AND FELLOWS, IF YOU'RE NOT CALLING YOUNG VOTERS AND TRYING TO EXPAND THE ELECTORATE, THEN YOUR VALUES DON'T REALLY MEAN ANYTHING.

>> Reilly: CALA WALSH, LILLIAN GIBSON, AND ELLEN BARRY, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT DO COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "BEAT THE PRESS."

EMILY ROONEY WILL TAKE UP LORI LIGHTFOOT'S MESSAGE TO THE MEDIA.

PLUS A LOCAL "JEOPARDY" CONTESTANT IN THE MIDDLE OF A MEDIA FRENZY.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org