♪.

TIM: FORMER MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIR IS HERE TALKING ABOUT THE DEEP DIVIDE IN HIS PARTY.

OUR LEAD STORIES, COVID RESTRAINTS, GONE JULY 1, AND PEACE BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR AND THE TWO REPUBLICAN LEADERS.

IT'S TRUE.

ON THE OTR PANEL, JONATHAN, LAUREN AND CHUCK, SITTING WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT, "OFF THE RECORD."

ANNOUNCER: PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING.

BUSINESS LEADERS FROM MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY.

LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN'S ROAD TO TOP 10.COM.

AND NOW THIS EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

TIM: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, WELCOME BACK TO OUR ZOOM EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD."

WE HOPE THE DAYS ARE NUMBERED ON THAT.

KEEP OUR FINGERS CROSSED.

THE GOVERNOR IS MAKING NEWS AND TALKING ABOUT THAT WITH OUR GREAT PANEL, WE HAVE JONATHAN AND LAUREN AND CHUCK, HERE'S WHAT THE GOVERNOR HAD TO SAY, CIRCLE JUNE 1 AND JULY 1.

>> HERE'S THE OLD LOOK FOR GOVERNOR GRETCHEN WHITMER WITH MASKS FIRMLY IN PLACE.

NOW, THE NEW LOOK.

NO MASK.

>> I'M GOING MASK-FREE BECAUSE I KNOW IT'S SAFE FOR ME AND MY FAMILY AND THOSE AROUND ME.

TIM: AGAINST THE BACK DROP OF THE GIANT BILLBOARD, THE GOVERNOR DECLARES FOR THE FIRST TIME -- >> FOR THE MOST PART, LIFE WILL BE BACK TO NORMAL.

TIM: THE RETURN TO NORMAL, JUNE 1.

INDOOR BAR AND RESTAURANT CAPACITY KICKED UP TO 50%.

JUNE 1, OUTDOOR VENUES AND CONCERTS HAVE NO CAPACITY LIMITS.

INDOOR LIMITS ARE 50%.

JUNE 1, INDOOR RECEPTIONS SUCH AS WEDDINGS AND THE LIKE GO TO 50% FOR THE FIRST TIME AND THE NEXT DATE TO CIRCLE ON THE CALENDAR, JULY 1.

>> ON JULY 1, THE BROAD MASK RULE WILL BE LIFTED.

BUT I WANT TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THE FACT THAT BUSINESSES AND WORKPLACES ARE WELL WITHIN THEIR RIGHTS TO REQUIRE MASKS AS PATRONS GO IN.

TIM: BUT THE BUSINESS RESTRICTIONS ASIDE, THE GOVERNOR REJOICES THAT WE'LL FINALLY BE ABLE TO DO ALL THIS STUFF.

>> WE'LL BE ABLE TO SING AT CHURCH, DANCE AT WEDDINGS, CHEER AT GAMES, HUG EACH OTHER AND LAUGH TOGETHER.

I KNOW THAT THAT IS WELCOME NEWS TO SO MANY.

TIM: HOWEVER, DESPITE THE ACCELERATED LIFTING OF COVID RESTRICTIONS, THE GERM IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL IN MICHIGAN AND THE GOVERNOR CONCEDES ALL OF THIS WILL STAY IN PLACE -- >> UNLESS, OF COURSE, UNANTICIPATED CIRCUMSTANCES ARISE.

WE DO NOT EXPECT THAT TO HAPPEN AND LOOK AT THIS AS THE LAST MOMENT THESE TYPES OF ORDERS.

TIM: HOWEVER, FOR THOSE OF YOU HOPING TO BE LIKE OHIO, WHERE THE GOVERNOR IS SELLING LOTTERY TICKETS TO COAX CITIZENS TO GET THE VACCINE, THE GOVERNOR DECLARES IT IS LEGAL BUT LOOKING TO ROLL UP YOUR SLEEVE AND GET THAT SHOT.

>>> SO LAUREN, WHAT'S THE REACTION IN OUR TOWN TO WHAT THE GOVERNOR DONE DID, IF YOU PARDON MY BAD FRENCH?

>> I THINK, ESPECIALLY AMONG THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, THERE IS A LOT OF REJOICING.

AND ACTUALLY THE LEGISLATIVE REPUBLICANS WERE PLEASED WITH IT AS WELL.

THEY ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY AFTERNOON THAT THEY SAW THIS AS A GOOD FAITH GESTURE BY THE GOVERNOR AND ARE PLANNING TO INCLUDE HER IN BUDGET NEGOTIATIONS NOW, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE METRICS BUT THAT WAS PART OF IT.

I THINK THAT, PERHAPS, SOME PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS MAY BE CONCERNED IF THERE'S NO LONGER A METRICS SYSTEM.

PREVIOUSLY, THE RESTRICTIONS WOULD HAVE BEEN LIFTED ONCE MICHIGAN HIT A CERTAIN NUMBER OF FIRST DOSE VACCINATIONS AMONG THE ADULT POPULATION.

THAT IS NO LONGER THE CASE, SO PERHAPS THERE'S HEART BURN THERE, BUT ESPECIALLY FROM MEMBERS OF THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY, THERE'S A LOT OF HAPPINESS HERE THAT SOME OF THESE RESTRICTIONS ARE GOING TO BE LIFTED.

TIM: JONATHAN, IF WE GAVE A LARGE DOSE OF TRUTH SERUM TO PEOPLE IN THE HEALTH COMMUNITY, HOW WOULD THEY BE REACTING TO ALL THIS?

>> WELL, ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES DID TALK, A LOCAL EPIDEMIOLOGIST AND LOCAL HEALTH DIRECTORS YESTERDAY.

FOR THE MOST PART, I THINK THEY ARE ON THE SAME PAGE WITH THE GOVERNOR IN A LOT OF RESPECTS.

WHETHER OR NOT IT WOULD MAKE SENSE TO STILL HAVE STRICTER REGULATIONS, PEOPLE AREN'T NECESSARILY FOLLOWING THOSE ANYMORE, AND THERE IS A STRONG DESIRE, AS THE GOVERNOR MENTIONED, TO GET BACK TO LIFE AS NORMAL.

NOW, CERTAINLY, FOLKS THAT WE TALKED TO AT BRIDGE MICHIGAN, SAID THEY MIGHT HAVE EASED THINGS UP A LITTLE SLOWER THAN THIS, AND THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE POTENTIAL FOR MORE CASES BUT WITH THE SUMMER GETTING UP, WEATHER GETTING WARMER, PEOPLE OUTDOORS MORE AND CASES PRECIPITOUSLY DECLINING, MICHIGAN IS NO LONGER NUMBER ONE IN THE NATION, NOT BY A BIT.

ALL SIGNS ARE PRETTY POSITIVE RIGHT NOW, AND THERE IS A REALISTIC BELIEF THAT WE'RE NEAR SOME SORT OF END TO THIS PANDEMIC.

TIM: CHUCK, DO YOU THINK THE AVERAGE CITIZEN IS READY TO GO TO A 1000-PERSON WEDDING RECEPTION TO GET SCHNOCKERRED UP?

>> I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSON AND WHAT THEIR POLITICS MAY BE.

PEOPLE ARE CAUTIOUS.

WE GOT SO USED TO WEARING THESE MASKS, YOU FEEL A LITTLE UNUSUAL NOT HAVING YOUR MASK.

I JUMPED OUT OF THE CAR THE OTHER DAY AND ABOUT TO WALK INTO A BUILDING AND SAW SOMEONE COMING WITH THEIR MASK, I SAID, MY GOODNESS, LET ME RUN BACK AND GET MY MASK, AND ALMOST FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE MASK.

I THINK PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE THEIR OWN PERSONAL DECISIONS AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO RISE TO WHATEVER THEIR COMFORT LEVEL IS, AND I THINK YOU WILL FIND SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE, HEY, I'M VACCINATED, THEY TELL ME IT'S SAFE, I'M GOING TO GO AHEAD AND DO IT.

I THINK THERE ARE GOING TO BE A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE THAT WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S A GROUP THAT ONE, YOU TRUST, THAT THE PEOPLE IN THAT GROUP PROBABLY HAD THEIR VACCINATION BEFORE THEY GO INTO IT, AND THEN I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THE SIZE THE GROUP.

PEOPLE WILL BE HESITANT ABOUT REALLY LARGE GROUPS, BUT SMALLER GROUPS, I THINK PEOPLE ARE READY TO BUST OUT AND START ENJOYING THEIR SUMMER AND HOPE THAT WE DON'T GET THAT MAJOR TICK ABOUT SEPTEMBER, EARLY OCTOBER.

TIM: ONE OF THE SIDE BAR STORIES, LAUREN, THAT DIDN'T GET A LOT OF COVERAGE IS THE GOVERNOR VERY QUIETLY ABANDONED ABOUT THE REACHING 70% HERD IMMUNITY.

SHE SAID I HOPE WE GET THERE, BUT THE PREVIOUS PROGRAM WAS PREDICATED ON THAT AND NOW THAT'S OUT THE WINDOW.

>> RIGHT.

THAT'S EXTREMELY TRUE, AND TO SHOULD EXTENT, THE ADMINISTRATION'S HAND WAS FORCED BY THE CDC.

WHEN THE CDC IS SAYING FOR VACCINATED PEOPLE, MASKS THREW A WRENCH IN A LOT OF THE ADMINISTRATION'S RESPONSE TO THIS, AND OBVIOUSLY WE'RE SEEING OTHER STATES THAT WERE NOT TYING METRICS TO THE FIRST DOSE VACCINATIONS, IN A LOT OF WAYS THIS IS KIND OF A RESPONSE TO WHAT'S HAPPENING ELSEWHERE, AND I THINK WHAT JONATHAN SAID EARLIER IN THE SENSE OF, YOU KNOW, SOME WAYS INCENTIVIZING PEOPLE WHO MAY OTHERWISE NOT BE LISTENING TO SOME OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH RECOMMENDATIONS, EVEN IF IT'S MOVING A LITTLE FASTER, IT REALLY REMAINS TO BE SEEN HOW THIS IMPACTS THE RATE OF VACCINATIONS IN MICHIGAN.

WE'VE SEEN THAT START TO DIP DOWN A LITTLE BIT.

THERE'S A LOT OF EXPERTS HAVE SAID THERE'S NATURAL SLOWING AS WE GET THROUGH ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO REALLY WANTED TO BE VACCINATED, AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF WORK TO BE DONE STILL ON CONVINCING THAT VACCINE HESITANT POPULATION IN MICHIGAN.

TIM: JONATHAN, YOUR CHANCES OF RUNNING INTO A PERSON NOT VACCINATED AT A WEDDING RECEPTION IS 50-50.

IS THAT IN THE BACK OF PEOPLE'S MIND OR ARE WE SO EUPHORIC WE'RE NOT GOING TO WORRY ABOUT THAT?

>> I'M SURE IT'S IN THE BACK OF SOME PEOPLE'S MINDS, THE PEOPLE WORRIED ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE VACCINATED, SO THEY WILL HAVE A LITTLE MORE SAFETY GOING INTO THOSE SITUATIONS.

SO, YEAH, LISTEN, PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T TAKING THE PANDEMIC SERIOUSLY, PROBABLY STILL AREN'T GOING TO TAKE THE PANDEMIC SERIOUSLY, AND AS CHUCK MENTIONED, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO MAKE CHOICES TO TAKE EXTRA PRECAUTIONS, SO MAYBE SOME PEOPLE STILL WEAR MASKS AT A WEDDING, IF IT'S NOT REQUIRED, BECAUSE THEY ARE VACCINATED, ET CETERA.

IT'S SORT OF WHAT SENATOR, MAJORITY LEADER SAID ALL ALONG, AN ERA OF PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY WHERE FOLKS MAKE THOSE CHOICES ON THEIR OWN.

TIM: CHUCK, BEFORE I -- IF SOMEBODY WAS OFFENDED BY THE TERM SCHNOCKERRED UP, I APOLOGIZE.

WE HAVE AN AGREEMENT AND WE HAVE PEACE AT HAND.

WHEN YOU HEARD THAT, DID YOU BELIEVE IT.

AND, TWO, HOW LONG WILL IT LAST?

>> THOSE ARE THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTIONS.

WHO KNOWS HOW LONG IT WILL LAST?

I THINK WHAT WE'RE STARTING TO SEE IS THE RUBBER MEETING THE ROAD HERE.

I THINK I SAID ON THE PROGRAM A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, THIS GOVERNOR CAN BE VERY PRAGMATIC.

SHE'S A CREATURE OF THE LEGISLATURE.

SHE'S BEEN IN ONE POSITION OR ANOTHER SINCE 2000.

SHE UNDERSTANDS HOW LANSING WORKS.

SHE'S COMING UP ON A BUDGET, AND SHE WANTS TO GET THAT BUDGET PASSED AND BE ABLE TO DO IT ON TIME.

SHE'S GETTING PRESSURE FROM SUPRINTENDENTS ALL ACROSS THIS STATE THAT THEY WANT TO GET THEIR BUDGETS DONE ON TIME SO THEY CAN DO THE SCHOOL YEAR IN THE PROPER FASHION FISCALLY, AND SHE'S GOT AN ELECTION NOT TOO FAR DOWN THE LINE.

YOU KNOW, EVEN LOOK AT THE DETAILS ON HER WEBSITE.

ONE OF THE KEY THINGS SHE MENTIONED IS SHE SIGNED TWO BILLS INTO LEGISLATION THIS WEEK.

BOTH OF THEM WERE SPONSORED BY REPUBLICAN SENATORS McBROOM AND ALSO ZORN.

SO SHE'S STARTING TO DO THOSE THINGS THAT LOOK VERY BIPARTISAN, AND ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE, YOU'VE GOT SHIRKY AND THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, EACH OF THEM GIVING THEIR OWN SPIN TO ALL OF THIS, BUT ALL OF THEM CAN GO BACK AND CLAIM A LITTLE VICTORY AND SAY I GOT WHAT I WANT, I GOT WHAT I WANT, AND NOW THE PEOPLE HAVE TO SORT OUT WHERE THE ACTUAL TRUTH IS IN THERE.

AND THIS IS STILL JUST A BROAD -- LOOKS LIKE A BROAD AGREEMENT, THE DEVIL IS GOING TO BE IN THE DETAIL AND HOW LONG IT WILL LAST, BUT I THINK ALL OF THEM ARE STARTING TO BECOME A LITTLE MORE PRAGMATIC AS WE GET CLOSER TO THE BIG YEAR NEXT YEAR.

TIM: LAUREN, WHAT DID EVERYBODY GET, WHAT DID THE GOVERNOR GET AND WHAT DID THE R'S GET?

>> THE GOVERNOR GOT THE CHANCE TO BE BACK IN BUDGET NEGOTIATIONS.

UP TO THIS POINT, THE REPUBLICAN-LED LEGISLATURE HAD BEEN CRAFTING BUDGET PLANS, WORKING ON SUPPLEMENTAL FEDERAL FUNDING COMING FROM THE GOVERNMENT FOR COVID-19 RESPONSE AND AID, SO NOW SHE'S BACK AT THE TABLE, APPARENTLY, AND THE REPUBLICANS, THERE WAS KIND OF A THREE PRONGED -- THREE THINGS THEY SAID, SHOWING THEM IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

THE LIFTING OF THE COVID-19 RESTRICTIONS, WHICH WE TALKED ABOUT, THE ENDING OF PERMANENT MIOSHA RULES, THEY WERE LOOKING AT MAKING PERMANENT WORKPLACE RULES, AND ALSO THERE WAS ALSO FROM THE REPUBLICANS, HAVE AGREEMENT INVOLVED IN THE PANDEMIC ORDERS, SO THOSE THREE THINGS SEEMS TO GIVE REPUBLICANS A LITTLE BIT MORE CONFIDENCE THAT THEY MIGHT GET SOMETHING OUT OF THE GOVERNOR.

TIM: JONATHAN, GIVEN THE ACRIMONY BETWEEN THESE THREE OVER THE PAST YEAR, IS THIS A SHAKY PEACE AGREEMENT, DO YOU THINK, OR IS IT ON SOLID GROUND?

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY, AS CHUCK MENTIONED, THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS, THEY NEGOTIATED BUDGETS BEFORE AND HAD A LOT OF ANIMOSITY IN THE PROCESS.

IT ALLOWS THE NEGOTIATIONS TO START AGAIN.

BUT, LOOK, NOBODY GAVE UP A TON IN THIS DEAL, I DON'T THINK IT WAS A HEAVY LIFT FROM THE WHITMER ADMINISTRATION WAS TALKING ABOUT REVISING THE WORKPLACE, I KNOW THERE WERE INTERNAL CONVERSATIONS ABOUT DOING JUST THAT.

SHE DIDN'T AGREE TO LET REPUBLICANS WRITE FUTURE PANDEMIC ORDERS, BUT AGREED TO DISCUSS WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK LIKE IN THE FUTURE, BUT, OF COURSE, FROM HER PERSPECTIVE, SHE'S HOPING THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE MORE PANDEMIC ORDERS IN THE FUTURE.

THAT'S THE EXPECTATION ANYWAYS, AND FOR REPUBLICANS, IT BECAME AN INCREASINGLY UNTENABLE POSITION TO HOLD BACK FEDERAL FUNDING WHEN THE GOVERNOR HAS BASICALLY ALREADY AGREED TO END ALL PANDEMIC RESTRICTIONS, YOU KNOW?

IT DIDN'T LOOK GREAT IN THE FIRST PLACE TO, YOU KNOW, CONDITION 1.5 BILLION IN CHILD CARE FUNDING ON THE GOVERNOR GIVING UP POWERS, BUT DEFINITELY WASN'T GOING TO LOOK GOOD IF SHE HAD ALREADY ENDED THE VERY ORDERS THAT REPUBLICANS WERE PROTESTING.

SO I DON'T THINK THIS WAS A HARD NEGOTIATION TO GET TO THIS POINT.

WE'LL SEE WHERE IT GOES MOVING FORWARD.

TIM: I THINK THE THREE OF THEM SHOULD TAKE A BOW BECAUSE IT CERTAINLY SENT A MESSAGE THAT IT CAN BE DONE.

WE DIDN'T THINK A LOT OF US, THE THREE OF THEM WOULD PUT ASIDE DIFFERENCES, I'M NOT SURE IF THERE WERE COMMENTS ABOUT THE GOVERNOR, THE BACK STORY IS LEFT TO BE TOLD.

LET'S BRING IN SOLA NOUZES AND SEE IF WE CAN GET NEWS ON WASHINGTON, D.C. IS THAT RIGHT?

>> NEW HOME ON CAPITOL HILL.

TIM: BECAUSE THERE IS TREMENDOUS INSIGHT BECAUSE YOU LIVE THERE, WAS THE ELECTION STOLEN, SIR?

>> I DON'T THINK THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

I THINK THERE WERE IRREGULARITIES, THERE WAS FRUSTRATION BY VOLUNTEERS AND ACTIVISTS AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND OBVIOUSLY, THERE WAS A GROUP OF SECRETARY OF STATES AND JUDGES THAT TOOK A LOT OF LEEWAY WITH REGARDS TO WHAT THEY COULD OR COULDN'T DO WITH REGARDS TO WHAT IS TRADITIONALLY BEEN STATE LEGISLATORS PURVIEW.

IN THE END, ELECTIONS ARE PANNING OUT TO SHOW, YES, THERE WERE SOME IRREGULARITIES, YES, A MINIMAL AMOUNT OF FRAUD, AND YES, THERE WAS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF FREEDOM TAKEN BY SECRETARY OF STATES AND JUDGES THAT PROBABLY SHOULDN'T HAPPEN, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS SO MANY LEGISLATURES ARE GOING BACK AND TRYING TO CLEAR UP AND CLARIFY EXACTLY WHAT ROLE EACH PERSON HAS IN THIS ELECTORAL PROCESS.

TIM: DID YOU HEAR THE GROAN FROM ALL THE TRUMP PEOPLE OUT THERE WHEN THEY SAID NO, I DON'T THINK THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN?

>> I THINK MOST TRUMP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY WERE PERSONALLY ENGAGED IN SITUATIONS SUCH AS THE CITY OF DETROIT WHERE THEY WERE COVERING UP WINDOWS.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED BEHIND THE WINDOWS, AND IT'S THINGS LIKE THAT THAT CAUSED A LOT OF PROBLEMS AND A LOT OF SUSPICIONS, BUT IN THE END, GVEN THE AUDITS TAKING PLACE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THE RECOUNTS TAKING PLACE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, I THINK IT'S FAIRLY CLEAR THERE WAS MINIMAL FRAUD BUT A LOT OF IRREGULARITIES.

DOESN'T MEAN IT WAS NECESSARILY FAIR AND DOESN'T MEAN THE TRUMP FOLKS WEREN'T HAD IN MANY WAYS, BUT IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT WISCONSIN, MICHIGAN, PENNSYLVANIA SPECIFICALLY, SECRETARY OF STATES WERE MAILING MAIL-IN BALLOTS TO EVERY CITIZEN IN THE STATE, THAT IS NOT LEGAL, THAT IS NOT TRADITIONAL, THAT IS NORMALLY THE PURVIEW OF THE LEGISLATURE TO DECIDE HOW THOSE ROLES ARE DONE, AND THAT'S WHERE THERE'S A LOT OF FRUSTRATION AND CONTINUES TO BE A LOT OF FRUSTRATION.

TIM: LAUREN?

>> SO, OF COURSE, MOVING OUT OF THE 2020 ELECTION, THERE WAS A LOT OF PASSION, THERE WAS A LOT OF ANIMOSITY.

WHAT SHOULD THE PARTY BE DOING TO BRING THE PARTY BACK TOGETHER?

PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS ISSUE, TO A COHESIVE FRONT COME 2022 ELECTIONS?

>> WELL, I THINK YOU'RE SEEING THAT.

IF YOU TAKE A LOOK ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND LOOK AT MICHIGAN IN PARTICULAR.

WE'VE ELECTED NEW LEADERSHIP IN PARTIES.

WE'RE BRINGING IN CANDIDATES FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT ARE RUNNING FOR CONGRESSIONAL SEATS, SENATE SEATS, GUBERNATORIAL SEATS, ET CETERA.

THE PARTY IS COMING TOGETHER.

WE'VE BEEN GOING THROUGH GROWING PAINS.

CONSISTENTLY SAID THIS IS NOT LIKE 1988 WHERE WE HAD THE ROBERTSON CHRISTIAN RIGHT COME INTO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND MANY THOUGHT THERE WAS A MINI REVOLUTION GOING ON AND THE PARTY WOULD NOT SURVIVE, AND TWO OR FOUR YEARS LATER WE WERE A STRONGER AND MORE EFFECTIVE STATE PARTY.

THE SAME THING IS HAPPENING WITH THE TRUMP VOTERS.

SO MANY WHO ARE CULTURALLY CONSERVATIVE TRADITIONALLY, NONPARTISAN VOTERS WHO HAVE COME INTO THE PROCESS, AND THEY'RE LEARNING HOW TO PARTICIPATE, THEY'RE LEARNING HOW TO BE PART OF THE SYSTEM.

THEY'LL CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR THE THINGS THEY BELIEVE IN AND I THINK THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WILL BE A STRONGER PARTY BECAUSE OF IT.

TIM: JONATHAN?

>> SOL, YOU SAID YOU DON'T THINK THE ELECTION IS STOLEN AND MAYBE DIVIDE IN THE PARTY ISN'T AS BIG AS EXPECTED.

SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY HIGH UP WHO ARE WINNING THE COUNTY PARTY SEATS.

THE CO-CHAIR OF THE MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY, MISHON MADDOCK WERE CLAIMING THE ELECTION WAS RIGGED, TRYING TO PUT THEIR OWN ELECTORS INTO THE LEGISLATURE.

YOU KNOW, WHAT PLACE DO TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS, WHO DON'T BELIEVE THAT, STILL HAVE IN THIS PARTY?

>> WELL, LOOK, FIRST OF ALL, EVERYBODY HAS A PLACE IN THIS PARTY.

WE'RE GOING THROUGH A SERIES OF GROWING PAINS, AND I HAVE ACTUALLY MADE A POINT OF LISTENING TO THE WEEKLY AND SOMETIMES MORE OFTEN VIDEOS THAT SHE'S DOING PUTTING OUT AS SHE'S TRAVELING AROUND THE STATE, IF YOU LOOK AT OUR LAST DAY COMMITTEE MEETING THAT RON WIESNER AND MISHAN MADDOCK MADE, THE PARTY MOVES FORWARD, THE PARTY UNDERSTANDS THERE ARE ISSUES.

YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT VOTER FRAUD AND TALK ABOUT STEALING THIS ELECTION, THERE WAS A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT THINGS.

I THINK THAT WHAT'S HAPPENED, UNFORTUNATELY, IS WE COMBINED WHAT IS TRADITIONALLY VOTER FRAUD VERSUS VOTER IRREGULARITIES.

I WOULD SUBMIT IT IS ILLEGAL FOR SECRETARY OF STATES AND JUDGES TO UNILATERALLY CHANGE THE LAW OF THE LAND IN FIVE STATES AND MAIL OUT ABSENTEE BALLOTS TO EVERY SINGLE VOTER IN THE STATE.

NOW, DOES THAT MEAN IT WAS STOLEN?

NO, BUT IT WAS IRREGULAR.

IT WASN'T WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN.

THAT'S WHY YOU SEE PENNSYLVANIA, WISCONSIN, MICHIGAN AND OTHERS PASSING LAWS DEALING WITH RULES AND REGULATIONS AS TO HOW ELECTIONS SHOULD BE ADMINISTERED.

THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FUNCTIONS AND ONE OF THE FEW FUNCTIONS THAT THE CONSTITUTION ACTUALLY GIVES STATE LEGISLATORS IN ARTICLE 2 SECTION ONE AND SECTION FOUR, REFER TO THE PLENARY POWER TO DETERMINE HOW ELECTIONS ARE RUN.

SO THAT'S THE FRUSTRATION THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT AND OFTENTIMES I THINK WE LOOSELY, WITH REGARDS TO HOW WE DISCUSS AND TALK ABOUT FRAUD AND STOLEN ELECTIONS WHEN WE OUGHT TO BE TALKING ABOUT IRREGULARITIES AND SOME CASES WHAT WAS ILLEGAL OR AT LEAST AT THE VERY LEAST UNORTHODOX WAYS OF DETERMINING HOW THESE ELECTIONS HAVE BEEN RUN, AND THAT'S WHY THE CHANGES ARE BEING MADE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

TIM: MR. STOKES?

>> JUST TO BE CLEAR, COURTS IN MICHIGAN DID RULE THAT JOCELYN BENSON DID HAVE THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO MAIL OUT ABSENTEE BALLOTS.

IT WAS NOT ILLEGAL.

>> IT STANDS ON THE CONSTITUTION.

IF YOU LOOK AT ARTICLE 2 SECTION 1 AND SECTION 4, THEY GIVE THE STATE LEGISLATURE THE RIGHT AND POWER TO DETERMINE HOW ELECTIONS ARE RUN FOR ELECTING A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

THERE IS NO POWER ANYWHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION OR LEGISLATIVELY ANYWHERE IN THE LAW THAT SAYS A SECRETARY OF STATE, ON THEIR OWN, CAN MAKE A DECISION TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO GIVE EVERYBODY ABSENTEE BALLOTS, WE'RE GOING TO SEND OUT MAILOUT BALLOTS TO EVERYONE IN THE STATE.

>> SHE DIDN'T SEND OUT MAILOUT BALLOTS, SHE SENT OUT APPLICATIONS TO THE ADMINISTRATIVE FUNCTION WHERE THE LAW DOES NOT ADDRESS AN ADMINISTRATIVE FUNCTION.

SECRETARIES OF STATE MAKE ADMINISTRATIVE RULES AND ADMINISTRATIVE DECISIONS ALL THE TIME.

>> IT IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS.

AND LOOK, JONATHAN, I'M NOT ARGUING.

OBVIOUSLY THE COURTS RULED THAT WAY, THIS IS WHY THE STATE LEGISLATURE SHOULD TAKE A LOOK AT THIS AND ADDRESS IT AND SAY, IS THIS SOMETHING, IS THIS AN ADMINISTRATIVE FUNCTION THAT A SECRETARY OF STATE CAN DO UNILATERALLY WITHOUT TALKING TO THE LEGISLATURE.

AND THE COURTS SAID IT CAN, SO WE HAVE A COURT RULING SAYING THEY CAN, BUT I WOULD ARGUE IF YOU LOOK ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THIS WAS NOT A NORMAL ACTION.

THIS WAS NOT -- THIS IS WHERE PEOPLE ARE GETTING FRUSTRATED.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE WAS DOING THINGS THAT ARE PERCEIVED TO BE IN THE DEMOCRATS' ADVANTAGE, AND THAT DOESN'T HELP US ALL GET MORE COMFORTABLE WITH ELECTIONS.

WE SPEND A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT THE RULES AND THE PROCESS OF HOW ELECTIONS ARE RUN, WE SPEND A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME TRYING TO MAKE THEM OPEN, TRANSPARENT, LET PEOPLE CHECK BALLOTS, LET THEM HAVE CHALLENGERS ON THE REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC SIDE, MAKING SURE WE HAVE FAIR AND HONEST ELECTIONS IS QUINTESSENTIAL TO MAKING SURE OUR DEMOCRACY WORKS, AND WHEN YOU HAVE THESE KINDS OF UNILATERAL ACTIONS, IT RAISES CONCERNS WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

TIM: MR. STOKES?

>> SOL, I KNOW AS FORMER CHAIR OF THE MICHIGAN GOP, WATCHING EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED HERE DURING COVID WITH GREAT INTEREST.

TWO-PART QUESTION.

IN JUST A FEW DAYS, GOVERNOR WHITMER IS GOING TO RECEIVE THE PROFILES AND COURAGE AWARD FROM CAROLINE KENNEDY.

DOES SHE DESERVE IT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT TOOK A LOT OF COURAGE TO TAKE A PRIVATE PLANE TO FLORIDA WHEN SHE TOLD EVERYBODY NOT TO FLY AND NOT TO TRAVEL.

I THINK, SHE BASICALLY OVERSTEPPED HER BOUNDS WHEN SHE WAS PASSING THE REGULATORY ISSUES THAT PUT MICHIGAN BUSINESSES BEHIND THE 8 BALL.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO SET A STATEWIDE POLICY IN A STATE LIKE MICHIGAN WHEN WE HAVE SUCH DIVERSE AREAS AS OUTSTATE MICHIGAN THAT IS TRULY RURAL AND NOWHERE NEAR THE POPULATION CENTERS OF OUR URBAN AREAS AND HAVE A ONE POLICY FITS ALL.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S A POLITICAL MOVE.

IT'S OKAY, IT'S PART OF THE PROCESS, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT SHE NECESSARILY DID ANYTHING TREMENDOUS IN THE STATE, AND IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT OUR NUMBERS, SHE SURELY CAN'T CLAIM SHE WAS THE BENEFICIARY OF, YOU KNOW, PUTTING OUR STATE BACK IN THE POSITION OF BEING ABLE TO OPEN UP HERE IN THE NEXT COUPLE DAYS, AND ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENED IN STATES LIKE FLORIDA AND OTHERS THAT LONG AGO TOOK A LOT OF THE RESTRICTIONS OFF THE TABLE.

>> GO AHEAD.

>> SHOULD REPUBLICAN LIZ CHENEY GET IT NEXT YEAR?

WHY AND WHY NOT?

>> I'M SORRY, I MISSED THE VERY FRONT OF THAT.

>> SHOULD LIZ CHENEY GET THE PROFILES AND COURAGE AWARD NEXT YEAR?

WHY OR WHY NOT?

>> I HAVE NO IDEA FOR WHY.

IF THERE'S A REASON TO GIVE IT TO HER AND SOMEONE WANTS TO GIVE IT TO HER.

>> SHE STOOD UP TO HER PARTY, SHE STOOD UP TO THE LEADERSHIP OF HER PARTY, AND SHE LOST HER LEADERSHIP POSITION.

LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BELIEVE THAT THAT TOOK A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF COURAGE.

>> WELL, LOOK, JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE A REBEL IN YOUR PARTY DOESN'T MEAN IT'S A COURAGEOUS THING TO DO.

I THINK SHE BECAME A DISTRACTION BY BEING OFF MESSAGE.

SHE WAS A LIABILITY TO THE HOUSE REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE A VERY GOOD CHANCE AT TAKING BACK THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

WE ONLY HAVE TO SWITCH FIVE SEATS ON A NET BASIS.

I DON'T THINK SHE HAD TREMENDOUS COURAGE, SHE HAD A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION, AND FOR WHATEVER REASON AS A MEMBER OF LEADERSHIP, DECIDED TO MAKE THAT DIFFERENCE OF OPINION THE FOCAL POINT OF HER POSITIONS RATHER THAN KIND OF SAYING THEM AND NOT MAKING THEM A DISTRACTION, AND THE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS PUSHED HER OUT BECAUSE SHE WAS A DISTRACTION AND LIABILITY.

>> YOU DON'T THINK IT TOOK COURAGE TO STAND UP TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT, WITHOUT QUESTION, THE MOST POWERFUL LEADER OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY RIGHT NOW?

>> I DON'T THINK IT WAS A VERY SMART MOVE ON HER PART, BUT SHE FELT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO EXPRESS HER OPINION.

SHE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO EXPRESS HER OPINION, BUT THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS HAD EVERY RIGHT TO SAY, LOOK, YOU'RE OFF MESSAGE, YOU'RE DISTRACTING FROM OUR EFFORTS TO TAKE THE MAJORITY.

WE WANT SOMEBODY WHO'S A TEAM PLAYER, AND I THINK THAT'S ALL THAT HAPPENED IN THE PROCESS.

TIM: WE'RE GOING TO DO AN OVERTIME SEGMENT, MORE QUESTIONS TO TOSS AT YOU, BUT FIRST LET'S CLOSE CREDITS AND GO TO WKAR.ORG FOR MORE OF OUR CONVERSATION WITH A FORMER GOP CHAIR IN MICHIGAN.

SEE YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE.

ANNOUNCER: PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING.

BUSINESS LEADERS IN MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP 10 STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME AND HEALTHY ECONOMY.

LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN'S ROAD TO TOP 10.COM.

>>> FOR MORE "OFF THE RECORD" VISIT WKAR.ORG.

MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.