In the Off the Record cu this week, Representative Matt Maddock, a Republican who's Vice Chair of the House Budget Committee and propert tax relief, is the lead story.

So sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the Record.

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And now this edition of Off the Record, with Tim Skubick.

Thanks very much.

Welcome to Sudio C. Now we have two propert tax relief plans on the table.

The D's speak out.

And here's what they're talking about.

This is a story of night and day.

The House Republican speaker's property tax relief plan gives relief to everybody, rich or poor.

But the House Democratic proposal is, quote, targeted.

Not everybody would share in the property tax relief.

This is targeted relief.

Focus on the people who need it most.

Working in middle class families, seniors on fixed incomes and first time homebuyers.

Not corporations or wealthy speculators.

The Democratic plan eliminates the so-called pop up tax at the time of the sale of a home, but that is phased out over three years.

The Republican approach is to take it off immediately and just get rid of it.

The Democratic plan also, for the first time, would lift property ta increases on home improvements.

Whether it's replacing an aging roof, adding accessibility improvements for a senior family member, or creating more space for a growing family.

These are investments that strengthen neighborhoods and communities.

Taking all of these taxes off for the middle class families would save about $1,000 for each home.

And it also includes renters.

That means hundreds of thousands of families who currently make too much to qualify for meaningful assistance, but nowhere near enough to feel financially secure would finally get the help they deserve.

An important element here is Democrats report their plan would not take valuable state dollars away from local services, or reduce state dollars going to schools.

So how do they raise the extr money to grant this tax relief, while at the same time keeping those local services?

The answer is tax.

The rich who have big vacation homes up north.

An excise property tax and very high end residential propertie that are not primary residences.

Vacation homes valued at ove $1 million with graduated rates for over 2 million, $3,000,004 million.

Former Republican Governor Rick Snyder wants to see the details on all of this, but he raises this point about homeowners up north.

Someone may have had that home for 20 some years that they got for very little money that's now worth more than a million.

And are they going to be able to.

Keep the home if they have that much higher taxes?

So the question at this read is, can these decidedly different property tax relief plans b molded in some way to compromise so that you will get something or maybe nothing?

All right, so here's the question.

I want a yay or nay.

Starting with you, Mr.

Melinn, at the end of this year, do we have property tax relief from either party?

No.

Yes.

Oh.

I'm going yes.

Yes.

But not like what we've seen so far.

Mr.

Melinn again is right.

Well I'm not always right but I will say.

You are on this one.

Well, the problem is, is that the property tax issue is being used as a political tool to try to try and assist each party.

And by the time we figure out who's going to be in charge for the next year.

That party or, you know, whoever is going to be in charge will dictate what happens with property tax going forward.

You know, if the Democrats sweep as what it looks like is happening right now, then they will have their own idea and won't be willing to negotiate with the House Republicans on their idea.

And then vice versa, if the House Republicans, when they will try and, you know, try and negotiate with it over the next governor is not this governor.

I think there's just too much pressure on these lawmakers right now.

I mean, members of the public are downright irate with what's happening with their pocketbooks.

They're worried about their savings.

They're worried about how they're going to afford their homes, how they're going to afford food at the grocery the next week with how prices have skyrocketed.

I think it's going to be very difficult for lawmakers to stare down and hea those frustrations at the doors as they're campaigning over the next few months and tell them, hey, we're goin to do something down the road.

I think there's going to be pressure to do it now.

I think a targeted solution where the two sides can d something maybe kind of small, that provide relief to some people in need.

I think that's a very real possibility.

I think that there's it's interesting.

There's a lot of ambition in these plans that we've seen so far.

And I think that it's again to two point ambitious to think that lawmakers are going to get this big reaching thing done.

At the same time, I think this is something maybe a few steps behind where roads was last year, where, you know, it was ambitious and then it got pared down and at least something kind o limped across the finish line.

Let's just walk through the numbers here.

Is the house plan, which passed late last night, dead or alive in the Senate?

I mean, it's dead in the Senate.

Thank you.

As it is.

I mean, there' no replacement of the revenue.

$5 billion is a huge amount of money.

The Senate's not going to do that, but it starts a conversation about what could they do.

If you want to have the conversation.

I'm going to guess that there are some critics of Matt Hall who are going to say this vote last night was not about property tax relief.

It was getting the House Democrats on the record voting no.

And that's not a tax relief.

That's power.

That's powerful.

I mean, that's going to be powerful.

I think that Trump's getting property tax relief.

But at the same time, there was a person, Chedrick Greene who just won a special election to keep the Senate majority effectively.

And he was campaigning on affordability.

He campaigned on I'm going to get there.

I'm going to do something to help your pocketbooks.

There is a demand and a need for the Senate Democrat to do something on this subject.

Yeah, I understand that.

But I mean, the cloc is not working in their favor.

And that's the problem.

I mean, they're going to go to Macinac next week, and then we're going to come into June, and then they're going to try and negotiate some type of budget deal and get it done by July 1st, because nobody wants to go on the campaign trai with a budget over their head.

And so the clock just doesn't work.

And for them, if they had 3 or 4 month to try and hammer something out and it looked lik there was initiative to do it.

I think you're right, Craig, but I haven't seen any fire from the Senate Democrats that they have any interest in working on something so massive in such a condensed time frame.

It's massive in concept, but if they narrow it down to just a couple smaller things, they could do this.

I mean they legitimately could do it.

You don't need fire from the Senate Democrats.

I think what you need is at least pressure from the governor and from the House.

And what you've seen is this.

And what the governor said on this issue?

Well, the governor's proposed to all you know, is a very small, limited, I think, for some older or for some older adults, but at least it's the start o a conversation to Craig's point.

And I think that as long as that conversation that started, that conversation is there to the point where even House Democrats in the minority feel the need to come out with their own, a competing proposal that shows there's at least a little appetite here for this conversation.

To at least entertain it.

Well, when I talked to the speaker a couple of weeks ago on zoom and I raised a point, I said, you know, if you put this thing up for a vote and you tie bar it, okay?

And the Democrats don't vote for this.

You've got a campaign commercial and he said shhh don't say anything about that.

Don' tell them what's going on here.

Please.

I mean.

What we saw last night, two after that first vote.

You know, there was a fe Democrats that didn't vote yet.

And we get to that point.

You know, you start calling on names.

You know, whose names they called Betsy Coffia, someone in Traverse City, they call Phil Skaggs, someone in East Grand Rapids.

I believe.

You know, these are some districts that maybe Republicans see some out there.

But if you're going to tie bar, he tie barred it to nothing.

I mean, it's was smart to whatever the replacement is going to be, which they haven't voted on or unveiled what it is.

I mean, there's some tax in the senate.

Why Not?

Well, if you're serious about to show all your cards.

No, I think you're exactly right.

I mean, what they voted on last night was a half plan that could diminis the ability of House Republicans to really attack House Democrats on it.

I mean, they're going to try they need something again go back to the special election that happened in the Saginaw area.

The Democrat won by 20 points.

Republicans have to find something in this whole sea of problem that they're seen politically to grab on to Is this going to be it?

Maybe.

His comment was the reason there's no meat on the on the table, on the on the tax aid is that he wants to leave it open for negotiation.

Yeah, that could be I mean, the other issue too is, is how big would you do it?

And it's not like we've got a ton of money.

You know, it's not lik the States got a ton of money.

There's $1 billion.

They told us last wee that they got to fill a hole on.

Yeah.

I mean, according to the governor' office, there's $1 billion hole.

But, I mean, both the House and the Senate were able to fill it with something.

And because their budgets are balanced, so they say there is no hole at all.

But to my point, though, I mean, how big of a tax or tax cut can you potentially even do knowing that this is at best going to be a run of the mill standard budget where there isn't a lot of money to be found?

I mean, there's this possibility is Tim's piece mentioned of phasing in, the pop up tax effect over a period of years that could negate it.

And both sides have kind of agreed, hey, we want to do something to Rich people.

They both want to do somethin to tax rich people more I mean.

That is D.O.A.

in the house.

I mean, that's not that's not the house.

That's part of Hall's plan.

You said we're going to do services that wealthy services that wealthy people use is what he has identified as what he wants to tax.

The House Dems are saying, hey, we'll do vacation homes.

You can debate whether that's wealthy people or it's homes people inherited, but they've both.

They're in a ballpark of wher they could get some revenue.

No?

I think the bigger question, too is, you know, when Hall talks about luxury services what are these luxury services?

He's brought them a few things.

You know, the transportation lobby and telemarketing.

I get a lot of telemarketing calls, but I don't expect I don't necessarily see those as something that are bringing in a lot of tax revenue.

That's why he says Im meeting with treasurary to see if we can get to $4 billion and, you know, in 3 or 4 years, let's see what they come up with.

Okay.

You know.

The other thing is too, though, is if they do a little something.

I see what you're saying.

Craig and Colin, I think you guys bring up some really good points.

It's just if you do a little bit, is that lose the incentiv to do something major next year?

Yes.

And see, that's th that's the problem they get into is that if you do something then the critical mass of public pressure is off you, and then you don't get an opportunity to actually do something that's actually substantial.

But there is a call to do something now.

With a democratic trifecta though, you know, it's not necessarily politicians are inching to do major things to begin with.

Well, one X factor here is who's the new governor?

Yeah.

Who might come in, h or she and say, you know what, we've been talking for property tax relief for 3000 years.

And by god, there's a new sheriff in tow and we're going to do it.

Yeah.

And I don't know if Duggan or Benson have made that a high priority.

I mean, the Republican has whoever the Republican is, maybe.

Well they want to eliminate all taxes.

Right.

I mean so they've obviously made that I heard a huge priority.

But I don't know about the Democrat or dog.

And if they would make that a top priority.

Alright very quickl you had an exchange between Mrs.

Benson and Mr.

Duggan on the campaign trail the other day.

I think it was really the opening of the general election campaign you had.

Where they nice to one another?

They were not.

Secretary of State Benson and Mayor Duggan were going right after each other, and it was about where they were getting their campaign money from, which is fascinating that they're going negative right now already.

Really a testy exchange.

But then also to say, we're going to run this campaign on where is your money coming from?

Who owns you?

That's going to be a theme, think, for the next few months.

Well, not among the candidates.

Well, I mean, that's what they're talking about.

I mean, Benson is saying Duggan is not an independent candidate.

He's a corporate candidate.

And then Duggan is trying to say Benson is making all these promises.

But if you look at her record, it doesn't really line up.

And it's it' going to be fascinating to see.

I mean, Duggan is running this campaign that he is an exper in how to make government work.

And it's it's pushing up against this populist moment in American politics.

He is not a populist guy.

He is not out there rah rah in the crowd.

And he's got to figure out a way to navigate this.

And Benson's going to stand there, I think every moment and say, hey, he's not with you.

He's with these corporate elites.

And and that's going to be a challenge, I think.

And they were talking in front of the UAW.

Yes.

And from your perception, the the crowd reaction to Duggan as he was having this exchange was.

That the average UAW members that I saw in attendance were not in favor of the wa Duggan was making his arguments.

He was really negative.

He was really going after Benson when they did the applause at the end.

After their closing statements, Benson and Chris Swanson, the Genesee County sheriff, got the loudest applause was Duggan's was much more muted, which is interesting because he's he's competing hard.

He might get that endorsement.

Who knows.

But that's also kind of the Faustian bargain with Duggan though, where as an independent candidate, you need a lot of money to run a campaign.

And the only thin that's making Duggan's campaign possible is his ties to corporate interests.

All right.

We also had a major story on the MSU campus this week, this little kerfuffle between the MSU board of trustees.

What's going on there?

Well, basically, the president, Kevin Guskiewicz, has sent signals and actually probably mixed signals to the trustees, basically saying, you know, we've created thi the special fund to try and keep athletes at Michigan State so we can have a competitive sports team and the trust some of the trustees are out here, talking about wanting more transparency and making my job harder.

Wouldn't it be better if these trustees would just fall in line like everyone else?

And oh, by the way, I've gotten some offers for, jobs elsewhere that would pay a heck of a lot more money.

So the trustees felt like, oh my gosh, Guskiewic could possibly be out the door.

They passed two things.

One to muzzle other trustees to, to, sanction them for speaking out of turn and doubling the salary of Kevin Guskiewicz in the hopes of keeping them here.

And of course, reaction on the campus from the groups who said, we just took a pay cut and th president's doubling his salary?

They're frustrated.

I mean, obviously they're frustrated.

And there's this whole other debate happening.

Now, if Michigan needs to structurally change how candidates for these positions on the boards are picked, it' going to be really interesting.

This plays right into that debate.

Does is not?

Totally and there's so many things happening right now that play into that debate.

If there is an interest in the legislature to do something about it, it would seem like this is the moment right now.

Quickly.

I mean, I think the bigger thing is this start happening as lawmakers are discussing the budgets for these universities.

It's, some would say maybe bad timing?

Some would say.

Let's call in our guest.

What did you just say?

I said from my bedroom into the lion's den.

Listen we talked around the table here about property tax relief.

Is this issue dead for the year?

You know what?

What I'm most excited about, the number one that we're listening to realize this, we have shifted the Overton windo in Michigan from here to here.

Okay.

We have Democrats talking about property tax relief.

That's never happened before.

That's a win for all of us.

And it may not happen this session.

But you know what we're doing.

We're priming the pump for our next governor.

And everyone is going to see what we're capable of doing.

So if you just said almost, it's D.O.A.?

I don't know for sure.

But you know what?

In my.

Eh but your gut tells you that its.

In my opinion, yeah, I think we're I think our messaging is spot on.

I think that people, the voters are seeing that Republicans are serious about doing this.

You know, we are like I said, we're priming the pump for what we have, what we have in the future, and we're going to get a Republican governor.

We're going to win back the Senate, and we're going to keep the House, and we're going to have a lot of fun when that happens.

And you have the House Democrats on the record voting no.

Absolutely.

An will you use that against him?

Absolutely, 100%.

Everyone needs to know that the Democrats do not want property tax relief.

We do.

And everyone else out ther that are paying their bills and paying these outrageous property taxes want the relief to, especially the seniors.

Well, the Democrats do want property tax relief, but they want it for people who are working class, people who make $100,000 a year or less.

Does that mean that there could be a landing spot this year to get some propert tax relief before the election?

You know what, picking winners and losers is always a losing game.

Okay, the Democrats have done it with MEDC in this corporate welfare for years and years and years.

These schemes and they're doing with homeowners.

And that's just wrong.

You know, our opinion is we need to give property tax relief to everyone out there.

Why should we determine who who's eligible and who's not?

But aren't you guys sitting through a sifting through a list of service and picking winners and losers and which services you're going to tax?

You know, that might happen.

You know, there may be some holes to fill, but in my opinion, you know, we need to do a combinatio of perhaps looking at new things and perhaps, you know, cutting our budget.

You know, I can sneeze, but you do.

And I just cut $1 billion out of a budget that can be done that easily.

There's plenty of waste in Lansing.

Everyone knows it, Kyle knows it too, you're smiling.

And you may not think there's waste in Lansing, but there is plenty of waste and there's plenty of duplication.

And something like Perry Johnson, in my opinion, is the right person to go in and just just start cutting all these little things up.

If they put a bill on the board, here's $1 billion in taxes on services to replace some of this.

How do you vote?

$1 billion of services to replace it?

Yeah.

I don't know.

It depends on what it is.

If they're a bunch of telemarketers and, mail houses and and lobbyists, maybe.

Journalists?

Journalists.

Yeah.

Environmental protection agencies.

You know, there's there's a lot of things we can consider out there, but I think the most but I think the most important thing is that we're talking about eliminating our income tax, and we're talking about reducing our property taxes.

I'd like to Michigan to be the first state in the natio to eliminate our property tax.

But I think Florida might be ahead of us.

Well, you know, this is something I brought up and something you brought up that you feel like a new administration especially if it's a Republican trifecta, would be more apt to do this.

And I'm wondering it seems like in recent history, at least, you know, some of these more difficult, possibly controversial things are actually something that divided government has been more apt to do just because at least that way some of the more popular things you get to tak when you get to take credit for, but also some of the unpopular things you get to share blame for.

I'm wondering how you see that.

What is on what is unpopular?

Well, you know, critics will say, especially from some of the local governments will say this will take money from services or will take money from schools, emergency services.

And I don't think there's anything unpopular about reducing the siz of government and cutting taxes and putting more money in people's pockets.

I don't think there's any downside to that.

Well, I think for our, you know, you talk about a $5 billion, potentiall $5 billion hole in the budget, even if you do replace that, I think people are skeptical about the ways that could get replaced in the first place.

Yeah, I mean, there I mean there's the the obvious thing is there's waste in our budget.

I'm looking forward to setting another record in Michigan for decreasing our budget for the first time, except for a time of war or recession, we're going to do that again.

So in your heart of hearts do you want to find a compromise this year on property tax relief?

If you can?

Always, of course.

But you're reading the tea leaves.

What do you mean by that?

It's not going to happen.

Well, you know, I'm a I'm a I'm optimistic.

You know, I'm optimistic about I've never been so excited about Michigan's future because we are ramping up to have, a very successful election.

President Trump's in office.

Things are great for America.

And I think Michigan is going to be.

What tells you this is going to be a successful election for Republicans?

The polling is bad.

Because the democrats.

In the special election, you guys got your hat handed to you.

Because the Democrat Party has gone completely nuts.

They just won a special election in a swing district by 20 points.

What, four people, 4% of the voters voted.

I mean, 95% of the voters didn't even know there was an election.

But everyone knows this election coming up.

They know what the primary and they're excited about the November election.

So you're predictin the R's will keep house control?

100%.

So what do you what do you see from the white House nationally that gives you hope that things will go well for Republicans, because the war hasn't been popular.

Gas is five bucks.

What do you see happening?

That's what everyone that's what the leftist news fake media is saying.

But people are excited about President Trump.

There's no way around it.

You guys will probably say that's not true.

But I know it's tru because I'm talking to people.

His poll numbers are like record lows for the first time.

I don't believe polls.

All these pollsters are a bunch of leftist.

Do you believe the gas prices, though?

Yeah.

You know, and I think in 3 to 4 months they're going to be $1.85 a gallon.

That's my prediction.

And I'm going to say the.

President's going to work something out with Iran?

Absolutely 100%.

The straits will open up.

Trust President Trump.

Things will things will go back.

I'm going to ask you this question to as the vice chai of the Appropriations Committee, how important is it for you guys to get a budget done by July 1st?

It's really important.

You said as you're shaking your head.

How important was the last term?

What was the last year?

Well, last year wasn't an election year.

This is an election year.

Yeah.

And I think people I think voters want to see us fighting, which we are.

And I think they want a smaller budget, you know.

You know, look at our look at our sister state, Georgia North Carolina, you know, they have they have more people than we are.

And they're spending 10 to $12 billion less per yea to run their state government.

I know we can cut our budget.

But can you get it done by July 1 though?

Maybe we'll see.

But is it a priority for you personally?

Yes.

No.

How about for your caucus?

Maybe.

Okay.

I was going to say if it doesn't matter as much, then why not tie property tax relief to a budget the same way roads are tied to a budget?

Last year?

That's another possibility.

Sure.

Why?

Well, the schools are all over you on wanting this.

Actually, they wanted by June 1st so they can be up and running by July 1st.

You're turning a deaf ear?

They want it done by January 1st, but they're not going to get it.

I mean, I mean, I don't know if this budget is going to be done by the date or not.

Well, why couldn't it be?

Because negotiation is a is a fine skill and Speaker Hall is very good at it.

And sometimes these things need time.

So what is the center of the negotiation that'll tip this thing one way or the other?

What's the really nut that needs to be cracked?

I would never tell you.

Why not?

Because.

You're here in Lions Den lets go for it.

The same thing.

Trump's not going to tell th press what he's what he's doing.

I mean, these negotiations are very delicate, but they're very, very important.

We're not going to we're not going to let public know what our what our hand, what our cards are.

Slightly different subject here.

You're a very grassroots oriented person.

What is the argument if you're willing to make it for why Attorney General and Secretary of State should be continued to be nominated at these conventions, and why these university boar members should be nominated by by people who attend convention.

Because Michigan has open primaries and the Democrats vote in our primaries, especially if they're in a conservative area and they know tha they can't vote for a Democrat, they vote for the most liberal Republicans.

It's been happening for years, and the convention process is a closed primary.

I'm 100% for closed primaries.

I think we need to close our primaries even more.

So if they closed the primaries, would you do something?

Would you be in favor of this?

Of what?

If they closed the primary and said, you have to have some type of party identification.

I would consider that sure.

You would consider that?

I mean, because of these conventions, you have like 4000 people in the Republicans, 2000 people in a primary.

You would open that up to a million people possibly voting and picking these candidates.

I mean.

I love the delegate process.

I love the convention process.

I think it's part of I think it's part of America.

And, I would prefer to keep them closed because we have a great, great bunch of delegates.

On the other hand, these people behind the, you know, Voters Not Insiders are saying what what is more democratic than letting millions of people vote rather than 3000?

That's what the left wants to left wants open primaries, so they can continue to vot in our elections to give us more liberal Republicans.

So this proposal is coming to the legislature where they need a two thirds vote.

That is D.O.A.?

I would say so.

I would hope it is.

I got a question for you.

So next wee we're going to have the Detroit Regional Chamber Conference in Mackinac.

Do you plan on.

The Democrat Chamber of Conference?

So do you plan on going to this?

I might I don't know.

What's your what's your kind of general feel about this conference and its relevance to Michigan politics?

You know I think Ive been to the conference three, maybe four times.

And, when I walk around the island, guess what 95 of the conversations are about?

They're about nonprofits and people that are organizing nonprofits that work for nonprofits, scheming ways to get taxpayer money for the nonprofit.

That's wha the whole convention is about.

Are you calling the chamber a Democratic organization?

Detroit Chamber of Commerce.

Absolutely.

Why?

Because they're a bunch of leftists.

Well they're endorsing Mike Duggan.

He's not exactly.

Who he's a leftist too.

Democrat Duggan.

I love the fact that Duggan was running because Duggan is going to split the Democrat ticket, and it's going to give us a victory and a pallet.

With the latest polling data says he's taking more from Republicans?

Polling data.

You jus don't believe any of that stuff?

I really dont.

Aren't there any conservative pollsters you can go to?

I don't believe any polls.

I shouldn't see that there's some polls that it pollsters that are decent, you know for exampl John James situation you can't no one survives going from 45% to 23% in 60 days.

No one can survive that.

That's a good poll.

I want to come back to this one more time.

What is the Republican messag for why voters should give them majorities in the legislature next year?

The number one message, tax relief, you know, efficiencies in government, you know, cutting fraud, waste and abuse.

People want to see that, you know, look at what's happening nationwide.

All these scams that I've been talking about for years are coming to light.

You know, look at Minnesota, all these scams.

And there's plenty of scam going on in Michigan right now.

What kind of job do you think the governor is doing?

Horrible.

My gosh.

Horrible job.

What could she be doing tha would give you more confidence?

Her nature, nothing.

So are you concerned abou the way the speaker of the House is, quote, cooperating with thi governor who has done nothing?

Speake Hall is a very good negotiator, and if you can take a win, it's going to take a win.

And if the governor has to, happens to have an open door to give us a win, we're going to take it.

Absolutely.

So can you honestly sit ther and say she's done nothing good?

I don't think the Democrats do anything good.

On that ominous note, good to see you.

Thanks for doing our program.

Thanks.

Have a safe trip to the island.

Thanks to all of you for showing up and you too.

See you right here for more Off the Record next week.

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