>> O'Connell: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I'M SUE O'CONNELL, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE STATE OF BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS, PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE AGREES ON THE PROBLEMS.

BUT AS FOR SOLUTIONS?

NOT SO MUCH, WE'LL GET INTO THAT.

PLUS, BIG CHANGES IN EVERETT, AFTER WEEKS, MONTHS, AND YEARS OF ACCUSATIONS OF RACISM AMONG CITY OFFICIALS.

AND AS HOUSING PRICES IN THE STATE KEEP RISING, WE TAKE A LOOK AT ONE OF THE CULPRITS THAT YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE HEARD OF: THE CORPORATIONS BUYING UP HOUSES AND PUSHING FAMILIES OUT.

♪ ♪ >> O'Connell: THE CITY OF BOSTON HAS FAILED TO TURN AROUND ITS STRUGGLING PUBLIC SCHOOLS, ACCORDING TO A SCATHING NEW REPORT FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION, ALSO KNOWN AS D.E.S.E.

THE REPORT DESCRIBES A SYSTEM PLAGUED BY "ENTRENCHED DYSFUNCTION," WHICH HAS, "FAILED TO EFFECTIVELY SERVE ITS MOST VULNERABLE STUDENTS, CARRY OUT BASIC OPERATIONAL FUNCTIONS, AND ADDRESS SYSTEMIC BARRIERS TO PROVIDING AN EQUITABLE, QUALITY EDUCATION."

WHILE D.E.S.E.

DOESN'T DETAIL ITS EXACT PLANS FOR BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS, THAT STARK ASSESSMENT SEEMS TO POINT TO THEIR POSSIBLY MOVING TOWARD STATE RECEIVERSHIP OF THE DISTRICT.

THAT WOULD MEAN LEADERSHIP OF B.P.S.

WOULD TRANSFER TO A SO-CALLED "RECEIVER," WITH BROAD POWERS TO OVERHAUL THE DISTRICT.

BUT THAT POSSIBILITY IS ALREADY GETTING SOME BIG PUSHBACK.

MAYOR MICHELLE WU AND THE BOSTON SCHOOL COMMITTEE HAVE BOTH SPOKEN OUT AGAINST A STATE TAKEOVER, AS HAS THE CITY COUNCIL, WHICH UNANIMOUSLY PASSED A RESOLUTION OPPOSING IT LAST WEEK.

I'M JOINED NOW BY THE SPONSOR OF THAT RESOLUTION, CITY COUNCILOR AND EDUCATION COMMITTEE CHAIR JULIA MEJIA; AND JIM STERGIOS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE PIONEER INSTITUTE.

WHICH FIRST CALLED FOR RECEIVERSHIP LAST MARCH, AND URGED MAYOR WU AT A MINIMUM TO SELECT MORE TARGETED INTERVENTION.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

WE CAN AGREE THAT THE BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS NEED ATTENTION BUT I'M WONDERING JULIA MEJIA WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE WITHOUT RECEIVERSHIP?

>> THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE HERE.

AND I REALLY DO APPRECIATE THIS WHOLE IDEA OF CREATING SPACE.

I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO START DOING, SUE, IS LISTENING TO THE FAMILIES, TO THE EDUCATORS AND TO THE STUDENTS WHO ARE LIVING THESE REALITIES AND CREATING SPACE FOR THEM TO HELP INFORM WHAT A PATH FORWARD WILL LOOK LIKE.

THIS MORNING, I WAS AT BATA, WHICH IS THE BOSTON ADULT TECHNICAL ACADEMY WHO WORK WITH STUDENTS WHO ARE IMMIGRANTS NEWLY ARRIVED HERE AND WHAT THEY SAID IS THEY NEED MORE SUPPORT SERVICES.

AND I KNOW THAT WE OFTEN TALK ABOUT MORE ADMINISTRATIVE SUPPORT, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT WE DO NOT NEED THE STATE COMING INTO THE CITY OF BOSTON TELLING US HOW TO RUN OUR SCHOOLS.

>> O'Connell: JIM, READING OVER THE REPORT, IT SEEMS TO ME AND I ONLY READ IT ONCE, IT SEEMS THAT THE BIKEST CHALLENGE IS THE BIG TURNOVER OF LEADERSHIP AT BMS, WHICH THE MOST CASUAL OBSERVER WOULD SEE IT'S A PROBLEM, IS THAT A PROBLEM THAT WOULD REQUIRE STATE INTERVENTION?

>> I THINK SO, THE PROMISE THAT THINGS ARE GETTING WORSE AND WE ARE NOT IN A GREAT PLACE TO START FIVE, SIX, SEARCH YEARS AGO.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT ONE OF TWO KIDS GRADUATES IN A NONEXAM HIGH SCHOOL.

THAT'S WHERE LAWRENCE WAS BEFORE ITS RECEIVERSHIP.

AND WHAT I WOULD DEFINITELY AGREE WITH COUNCILOR MEJIA, THEY HAVE NO MORE THAN PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT I THINK IS ESSENTIALLY DECISION MAKERS NEED TO GET OVER THEMSELVES.

WHETHER IT'S THE GOVERNOR, THE COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION OR TEEN MAYOR IF I MIGHT SAY SO AND THAT IS CREATE A PARTNERSHIP.

WE HAVE LOOKED AT RECEIVER VIPS, I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT RECEIVERSHIPS NOT WORKING, THEY HAVEN'T BY AND LARGE, BUT WE HAVE STUDIED MANY, AND WE THINK THAT A SIX YEAR RECEIVERSHIP APPOINTED BY BOTH THE COMMISSIONER AND THE MAYOR, TOGETHER WITH A SCHOOL COMMITTEE THAT'S APPOINTED BY THE STATE AND THE MAYOR.

SO EVERYONE HAS RESPONSIBILITY HERE.

WOULD BE IMPORTANT.

AND I THINK JOB NUMBER 1 IS TO RATIONALIZE THAT CENTRAL OFFICE.

THEY HAVE IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT OTHER DISTRICTS, THEY HAVE PROBABLY THREE OR 400 TOO MANY MEDIUM THERE.

THAT MONEY -- TOO MANY PEOPLE THERE.

THAT MONEY COULD GO BACK IN THE CLASSROOM AND WE SO RATIONALIZE THINGS.

PEOPLE LEAVE BECAUSE THEY FEEL THE WORK THREE ARE DOING IS NOT MEANINGFUL ENOUGH BECAUSE THERE IS JUST CHAOS THERE.

COK COUNCILOR MEJIA, I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND BUT THERE WERE SOME GOOD THINGS THAT THIS REPORT SHOWED WHICH WERE ALSO UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF OUTGOING SUPERINTENDENT BRENDA CASSELIUS.

CAN YOU POINT OUT SOME OF THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS THAT BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE SEEN OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS?

ARE.

>> YES, FIRST OF ALL LET'S JUST PAUSE FOR A QUIRK SECOND AND RECOGNIZE THAT A LOT OF THIS CONVERSATION IS HAPPENING DURING A GLOBAL PANDEMIC.

AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ASSESSING THE WORK THAT WE'VE BEEN ABILITY TO DO UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.

SO LET'S JUST ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.

AND WE'RE ALSO AT A TIME OF TRANSITION.

WE HAVE A NEW MAYOR, A NEW POTENTIAL -- A NEW SUPERINTENDENT.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF TRANSITION HAPPENING.

AND I THINK SO WHILE I'M NOT -- I'M GOING TO GET TO YOUR QUESTION IN A MINI THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO RECOGNIZE THE TIMING OF THIS PARTICULAR CONVERSATION.

AND TO -- IT WOULD BE ARE UNCHARACTERISTIC OF ME NOT CALLING IT OUT.

WE KNOW WHAT IS DRIVING A LOT OF THESE CONVERSATIONS ARE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO PRIVATIZE OUR PUBLIC EDUCATION AND ARE LOOKING FOR A COPOUT IN WAYS TO DO JUST THAT.

BUT BUT IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE OUTCOMES DESPITE THE STRUGGLES THAT OUR KIDS HAVE EXPERIENCED, I HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE TO DO A DEEP DIVE INTO THE REPORT.

BUT WHAT I DO KNOW IS THAT OUR GRADUATION RATES -- WE'VE SEEN THAT SOME OF THE STATE TAKEOVERS HAVE SIMILAR FEWER IMPROVEMENTS, RIGHT, AROUND SUSPENSIONS, AND TO BE SHONS WITH YOU, I CAN'T -- TO BE HONEST WITH YOU I CAPTAIN SPEAK TO THE ENTIRE REPORT, I HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE -- >> O'Connell: SURE, I CAN HELP YOU OUT A BIT TO SAY THE CURRICULUM HAS INCREASED, WHEN THE STUDENTS HAVE GRADUATED FROM BOSTON PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOLS THEY ARE AT A LEVEL TO BE ABLE TO GO TO STATE SCHOOLS, WHICH HAS BEEN A PROBLEM IN THE PAST, LOOKING AT THE VALEDICTORIANS, WHO HAVEN'T BEEN SUCCESSFUL GETTING TO THOSE SCHOOLS.

BUT JIM, THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT THIS PRIVATE STATION OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS THAT FOLKS ARE GOING TO COME IN AND COME UP WITH SOLUTIONS WHICH ALLOW THERE TO BE A PROFIT CENTER FOR THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

AND YOU MENTIONED SAYING A STATE APPOINTED SCHOOL COMMITTEE WHEN WE DON'T REALLY HAVE THE SCHOOL COMMITTEE DISCUSSION IS STILL AN ONGOING ONE HERE IN THE CITY OF BOSTON.

WHAT IS YOUR REPLY TO THAT WHEN IT COMES TO THE CONCERN OF MAKING SCHOOLS NOT PUBLIC BUT MORE PRIVATE?

>> SO SUE, FIRST THING IS I DIDN'T SAW JUST A STATE APPOINTED SCHOOL COMMITTEE POOL BLENDED STATE AND CITY.

BECAUSE I THINK SHARED RESPONSIBILITY HERE IS IMPORTANT.

I GUESS I'D HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH COUNCILOR MEJIA MEJIA ON THIS POINT.

I'VE GOT GRAY HAIR, MAN.

I'VE BEEN WATCHING AND LISTENING TO THIS FOR A LONG TIME.

EVERY MAYOR HAS COME IN WITH THEIR PLAN AND THEIR PEOPLE AND IT'S JUST GOTTEN WORSE AT LEAST OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS BECAUSE OF A LACK OF STABILITY.

WE ARE NOTWITHSTANDING THE GOOD NEWS THAT YOU JUST SHARED, AND IT IS GOOD NEWS, THIS IS FOR ME THE CRUELEST TWIST.

STILL 29 YEARS AFTER EDUCATION REFORM WAS PASSED HERE AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WAS SPENT AND I DON'T BEGRUDGE A DOLLAR OF IT, $26,000 PER STUDENT IN BOSTON SPENT, AVERAGE TEACHER MAKES $103,000, AGAIN THAT'S AVERAGE, THOUGHT TOP, LOTS OF PEOPLE ABOVE, LOTS OF PEOPLE BELOW.

BUT YET THE KIDS, 60 TO 70% OF THEM ARE NOT BEING TAUGHT WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE TESTED ON BECAUSE THE CENTRAL OFFICE IS SO CHAOTIC, IT CAN'T EVEN GET THE BASIC STUFF DONE.

THAT'S CRUEL TO KIDS, CRUELTY TO FAMILIES.

THE KIDS CAN DO THE WORK, ABSOLUTELY.

AND TO NOT EVEN BE AT THAT BASIC LEVEL, I'M SORRY.

THAT'S NOT A HARD FIX.

IT JUST TAKES FOCUS LIKE CRAZY.

THERE ARE BIG ISSUES TOO, I AGREE BUT LET -- >> O'Connell: YOU FROZE ON ME AT THE END THERE JIM.

CAN YOU REPEAT THE LAST?

>> LET'S GET THE BASICS DONE.

FRANKLY I FIND IT CRUEL.

IF MY KID WAS IN A SCHOOL THAT'S NOT BEING TAUGHT WHAT WAS TESTED AND THEY TRY THEIR HARDEST AND STILL FATAL I'D BE REALLY REALLY MAD.

SORK I'M A FORMER BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS PARENT AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THE CHALLENGE IS THAT THE SCHOOL SYSTEM HAS ESPECIALLY AN URBAN SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT OTHER SCHOOL SYSTEMS DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE.

AND AT THE SAME TIME I'VE HEARD FIRSTHAND ABOUT THE ADMINISTRATION CHAOS, WE DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY IS SPENT ON STUDENTS PER STUDENTS, BECAUSE PEOPLE FEEL THERE'S ENOUGH IN THE BUDGET TO GET DONE WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

IF RECEIVERSHIP ISN'T THE ANSWER AND WE'RE IN THE TRANSITION OF GETTING A NEW SUPERINTENDENT IN THAT PROCESS, WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN, TO FIX THIS ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS, FROM DOLING OUT ASSIGNMENTS TO THE BUSES RUNNING ON TIME?

>> I REALLY DO APPRECIATE JIM'S POINT.

I THINK THAT THAT'S THE ONE PROBLEM, PLACE WE PROBABLY BOTH AGREE.

THE FACT THAT LEADERSHIP ALONE CAN'T CHANGE EVERYTHING.

AND WE'RE GOING TO NEED TO DO A LOT MORE.

BUT I'M ABOUT BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOL GRADUATE AND A BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOL PARENT AND A BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOL ADVOCATE, RIGHT?

SO I NOW ABROGATED THE SPACE IN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

AND WHAT I HAVE SEEN AND WHERE I HAVE SEEN THE BIGGEST FAILURE IS THAT WE SPEND ALL OF OUR TIME DOING THIS, BLAMING, BUT WE'RE NOT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY OR HOLDING OURSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO WHERE WE ENDED UP.

SO THAT 29 YEARS LATER JIM, WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE DEPLETED OUR BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS OF EVERY SINGLE RESOURCE.

AND THEN WE'VE EXPECTED OUR EDUCATORS TO DO -- TO WORK MIRACLES WITH A LITTLE BIT OF MAYMAYONNAISE.

AND I SAY THIS BECAUSE ACCOUNTABILITY COMES FROM THE TOP.

AND THAT INCLUDES DUSTY, THAT INCLUDES THE GOVERNMENT, THAT INCLUDES THE DISTRICT, THAT INCLUDES THE MAYOR.

THAT INCLUDES THE SCHOOL COMMITTEE, THAT INCLUDES THE PARENTS.

AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE ALL OF US, RIGHT, WORKING IN DIFFERENT WAYS, TO MOVE THE SCHOOL FORWARD.

BRINGING IN A STATE RECEIVERSHIP OR ANY MODEL THAT KICKS US TO THE SIDE IT IS NOT GOING TO GET US TO WHERE WE NEED TO BE.

WE DO NOT NEED TO SWAP OUT THE PLAYERS TO FIX PROBLEM.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS TAKE RESPONSIBILITY THAT WE'VE CREATED THE MESS THAT WE FIND OURSELVES IN.

AND UNTIL WE DO THAT WE'RE GOING TO KEEP SPINNING OUR HEADS HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION, AND NO ONE WILLING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

THIS IS ARE FROM THE TOP.

AND THAT TOP IS DUSTY AND THE LARK OF INVESTMENTS THAT WE'VE MADE IN OUR PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM AND IF WE CAN'T HOLD OURSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO THAT THERE IS NO SENSE FOR US TO KEEP HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

>> O'Connell: JIM CAN YOU TELL ME WHEN YOU SAY THE PARTNERSHIPS, WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

WHO ARE THESE PARTNERS OTHER THAN THE STATE THAT YOU WOULD ENVISION THIS ARRANGEMENT LOOKING LIKE?

>> SO ABSOLUTELY.

BUT WOULD I JUST NOTE TO COUNCILOR MEJIA, BOSTON IS ONE OF THE TOP FUNDED DISTRICTS IN THE STATE, IT IS THE SECOND MOST HIGHLY FUNDED URBAN DISTRICT IN THE COUNTRY.

IT'S NOT A MATTER OF INVESTMENT ANYMORE.

IT WAS 20 YEARS AGO.

IT ABSOLUTELY WAS BUT IT'S NOT ANYMORE.

THE SECOND, AND TO GET TO YOUR SPECIFIC QUESTION SUE, I DON'T REALLY CARE WHO IT IS.

I DON'T THINK THAT IT HAS TO BE ANYONE FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

I THINK YOU COULD HIRE SOMEONE WHO'S DONE A HANDSOME JOB IN ANOTHER URBAN DISTRICT AND HAS PROVEN TO BE REALLY GOOD AS BUILDING THE TEAM AND LEAVING IN PLACE AFTER HE OR SHE LEAVES.

>> O'Connell: WHY COULDN'T THAT PERSON BE A SUPERINTENDENT?

WHY CONTINUE IT BE LETS LET THE STATE AND ALL THE PARTNERS GET TOGETHER TO HIRE A PERMANENT SUPERINTENDENT WHO WOULD BE THE PERSON RATHER THAN BRING IN A CONSULTANT WHO IS GOING TO RIDE IN IN THE MORNING AND THEN RIDE OUT THE NEXT WEEK?

>> WE DON'T NEED THAT.

>> O'Connell: WE MADE NEAT A HARVARD PERSON.

>> I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY BACK TO JIM WHEN IT'S MY TURN, JUST WANT TO YOU KNOW.

>> JUST ONLY THING I HAVE TO SAY IS IT'S NOT THE SAME LEVEL OF URGENCY.

A SUPERINTENDENT I MET WITH SEVERAL YEARS BACK, BOSTON SUPERINTENDENT, HANDED ME HIS OR HER BUSINESS CARD.

AND PUSHED IT ACROSS THE TABLE AND I LOOKED ON THE BACK OF IT AND IT WAS HIS OR HER CELL PHONE BECAUSE THEY ARE SAYING, I CANNOT WORK WITH THESE PEOPLE.

PLEASE GIVE ME SOME ADVICE THAT IS ACTUALLY OBJECTIVE.

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO FIRM THAT WITHOUT SOME URGENCY THAT IS FLIED THROUGH OUTSIDE ENDEAVORS, THAT'S ALL.

SON COWRNL, THE CHALLENGE IS THAT THE SUPERINTENDENTS HAVE HAD A VERY DIFFICULT TIME WORKING WITHIN THE SYSTEM.

SO IT WOULD BE A DREAM TO HAVE A SUPERINTENDENT COME IN WHO COULD DO THAT AND THEY'VE HAD THESE CHALLENGES.

SO I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD HERE AS WE MOVE TO CLOSE.

WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?

>> YEAH SO FIRST I THINK AND THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING, IS YOU HAVE TO TURN TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING THE REALITIES AND DOING THE WORK TO FIND THOSE SOLUTIONS.

WE DON'T NEED CONSULTANTS.

WE DON'T NEED THINK TANKS COMING IN AND TELLING US WHAT TO DO WHEN THE REAL ANSWER IS THE PEOPLE LIVING THE REALITIES, NUMBER 1.

NUMBER 2 JIM I JUST WANTED TO, IN REGARDS TO THE AMOUNT OF DOLLARS, IT'S NOT ABOUT MORE MONEY AND MORE RESOURCES.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT MCAS SCORES, THE WAY ABILITY IS MEASURED.

YOU'RE ALWAYS CHANGING THE GAME RIGHT AND MAKING IT HARDER FOR KIDS WHO ARE VULNERABLE AND LIVING THESE REALITIES, RIGHT COME YOU HAVE TO ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT THE WAY THAT THE SYSTEM HAS BEEN CREATED THAT IS BEEN DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY TO FAIL US US.

>> O'Connell: COWRNL I HAVE TO LEAVE IT HERE.

I APPRECIATE YOU BOTH ABOUT JOCKEY ME.

I APPRECIATE WE WILL HAVE MORE OF IT, SO WE DON'T HAVE TO LEAVE IT ALL ON THE TABLE TODAY.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AMID A GROWING SCANDAL OVER A SERIES OF RACIST COMMENTS AND ACTIONS AMONG CITY GOVERNMENT IN EVERETT, TWO OFFICIALS STEPPED DOWN TODAY: CITY COUNCILOR ANTHONY DIPIERRO AND SPOKESPERSON FOR THE MAYOR, DEANNA DEVENEY.

THEIR RESIGNATIONS COME MORE THAN TWO MONTHS AFTER THE "EVERETT LEADER-HERALD" REPORTED THAT DIPIERRO SHARED A RACIST MEME WITH OTHERS IN THE CITY, REFERENCING THE N-WORD NUMEROUS TIMES.

AND JUST OVER A WEEK AGO, THE "GLOBE'S" STEPHANIE EBBERT SHARED DETAILS OF A LEAKED RECORDING OF DIPIERRO AND DEVENEY JOKING ABOUT ACCUSATIONS OF RACISM TWO YEARS AGO, AND MAKING YET MORE RACIST COMMENTS.

THIS AFTERNOON, PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS STAGED A WALK-OUT OVER THE SITUATION.

THEY'D ORIGINALLY BEEN PLANNING TO CALL FOR DIPIERRO'S RESIGNATION.

BUT NOW THAT HE'S ANNOUNCED THAT, THERE IS, OF COURSE, STILL A LOT MORE WORK TO BE DONE, WITH SEVERAL OTHER ACCUSATIONS OF RACISM STILL LINGERING BEYOND THESE LATEST INSTANCES, AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT MUCH MORE IN TOMORROW'S SHOW.

NEXT UP, WHETHER YOU'RE LOOKING TO BUY OR RENT IN MASSACHUSETTS, IT'S NO SECRET THAT THE STATE IS AN EXPENSIVE ONE TO LIVE IN, EVEN MORE SO IN RECENT YEARS.

AND WHILE THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS FOR THAT, ONE COMES AS A SURPRISE TO MANY.

IT TURNS OUT THAT A LOT OF HOUSES AREN'T BEING BOUGHT BY INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE OR FAMILIES AT ALL.

RATHER, AS THE GBH NEWS CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING FOUND, CORPORATIONS ARE BUYING MORE AND MORE HOUSES OUT FROM UNDER THE REST OF US!

I'M JOINED BY JENIFER McKIM, WHO'S THE REPORTER BEHIND THAT STORY, ALONG WITH ROSE WEBSTER-SMITH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NONPROFIT HOUSING GROUP, SPRINGFIELD NO ONE LEAVES.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

JENIFER I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

ASK WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

I IMAGINE CORPORATIONS OR COMPANIES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN BUYING SINGLE FAMILY HOMES AND MULTIFAMILY HOMES.

BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?

>> SO IT'S JUST HAPPENING A LOT MORE, IT'S TRUE IT'S BEEN HAPPENING OVER THE LAST COUPLE DECADES.

THERE'S BEEN INCREASING INVESTMENTS IN RESIDENTIAL HOMES.

BUSES ARE SEEING PROFITS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

AND ESPECIALLY IN PLACES LIKE MASSACHUSETTS.

WE HAVE ROSE HERE BECAUSE PARTICULARITY WHEN WE STARTED LOOKING AT THIS ISSUE IN MASSACHUSETTS WE FOUND THAT THERE'S A LOT OF INVESTORS WHO ARE SEEING PARTICULAR PROFITS IN LOWER INCOME CITIES LIKE SPRINGFIELD WHERE ROSE IS FROM AND OTHER GATEWAY COMMUNITIES WHERE THEY ARE BUYING UP FORECLOSED HOME, IN THE RENT MARKET, AND KEEPING THEM TO RENT OR FLIP AND PROFIT OFF OF THEM.

SON I WANT TO>> O'Connell: I WANT TO SHOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING JENIFER.

THE TOP LINE IS ONE FAMILY, THE SECOND LINE IS TWO FAMILY AND THE THIRD IS THREE FAMILY.

YOU CAN SEE ESPECIALLY THE SINGLE FAMILY HOMES WHAT AN INCREASE IS THERE.

ROSE WHAT'S THE DOWN SIDE TO THIS, TO A COMMUNITY LIKE SPRINGFIELD OR ANOTHER URBAN COMMUNITY?

HOW SIT IMPACTING THE EVERYDAY FOLKS WHO ARE LIVING IN THESE COMMUNITIES?

>> I THINK IT'S IMPACTING PEOPLE LIVING IN THESE COMMUNITIES GREATLY.

WE USED TO BE KNOWN AS THE CITY OF HOMES.

BECAUSE IT WAS MAINLY OWNER-OCCUPIED PROPERTIES WITHIN THE CITY OF SPRINGFIELD AND I WANT TO SAY SINCE 2016 WE'VE BECOME THE CITY OF SPECULATOR-OWNED HOMES.

>> O'Connell: JENIFER THERE'S SOME REAL LIFE IMPACT TO THIS, IF YOU ARE OUT TRYING TO BUY A HOME ALMOST ANYWHERE AND IF YOU ARE COMPETING AGAINST A COMPONENT THAT ISN'T EVEN GOING TO DO AN INSPECTION MAYBE OR IS GOING TO JUST PAY WHAT THE ASKING PRICE IS, WHAT'S THAT IMPACT ON JUST EVERY DAY BUYERS WHO MIGHT BE QUALIFIED WITH THE DOWN PAYMENT, READY TO BUY?

HOW IS THIS IMPACTING THEM?

>> THERE'S MANY DIFFERENT IMPACTS FOR THIS AS ROSE MENTIONED AND IN THE COMMUNITIES WHERE YOU'RE LIVING IN PLACES WHERE YOUR HOMES ARE OWNED BY BUSINESSES, BY HOME BUYERS WHO ARE THRIEG TO GO OUT THERE AND -- TRYING TO GO OUT THERE WITH INVESTORS COMING IN WITH ALL CASH SALES.

I THINK IT'S REALLY, REALLY HARD FOR HOME BUYERS TO COMPETE WITH THOSE WHO ARE COMPETING WITH ALL CASH.

THERE IS RESEARCH OUT THERE FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY THAT LLCS AND OTHER BUSINESS ENTITIES ARE WORSE LANDLORDS THAN RECOGNIZE INDIVIDUALS AND THEY'RE ALSO JUST MUCH HARD TORE TRACK.

YOU CAN'T FIND THEM.

THE DOCUMENTS MAKE IT VERY EASY TO SORT OF -- THEY'RE SHELL COMPANIES REALLY AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THE OWNERS ARE.

THIS IS A CHALLENGE BOTH FOR CITIES AS WELL AS HOUSING ADVOCATES WHEN THEY'RE TRYING TO HOLD SOMEBODY ACCOUNTABLE.

>> O'Connell: ROSE, FROM NANTUCKET TO SPRINGFIELD, MOST EVERY CITY IN OUR STATE REGARDLESS OF ITS ECONOMIC STATUS AND THE HIERARCHY OF INCOME, WHEN IT COMES TO TOWNS LIKE REVERE AND LYNN AND SPRINGFIELD, THE CHALLENGE HERE IS THAT IT ALSO DOESN'T ALLOW FOLKS TO BUY WITHIN THE COMMUNITY THAT THEY'VE GROWN UP IN.

OR IF THEY'RE RENTING PROPERTIES AVAILABLE, WE ALL KNOW THAT FOR MANY FOLKS, THE INVESTMENT IN THE COMMUNITY IN TERMS OF VOTING AND BEING INVOLVED, AND RENTERS SOMETIMES DON'T FEEL THAT CONNECTION.

I IMAGINE THAT'S ONE OF THE DOWN SIDES AS WELL.

>> OH, IT ABSOLUTELY IS.

AND AS, YOU KNOW, MORE LLCS BUY OUT PROPERTIES HERE IN SPRINGFIELD WE'RE SEEING OUR VOTER ENGAGEMENT GO DOWN, DISENFRANCHISEMENT WITH ANY KIND OF ELECTORAL POLITICS.

AND IT'S HASHED FOR US OUT HERE IN SPRING FIELD WHEN OUR MAYOR ELECTION IS ON AN OFF-YEAR VERSUS THE OTHER ELECTION.

SO PEOPLE DON'T FEEL ENGAGED AND LLCS ARE DRIVING THAT SPECULATIVE MARKET UP IN OUR RENTS.

WHEN WE FIRST STARTED ORGANIZING TENANTS, YOU KNOW YOU COULD RENT A THREE BEDROOM IN SPRINGFIELD FOR 900.

NOW THAT SAME THREE BEDROOM IS 1600.

>> O'Connell: JENIFER ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE 92, ON THE SURFACE IT'S NO BIG DEAL.

WHEN THE COMPANY COMES IN THEY BUY A HOME THAT IS IN FORECLOSURE OR THAT HASN'T BEEN KEPT UP FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, THEY MAKE IMLOSSMENTS, THEY FLIP IT OR THEY RENT IT.

BUT YOU ALLUDED TO IT JUST A MOMENT AGO.

THEY AREN'T VERY GOOD LANDLORDS STATISTICALLY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT STATISTICS ACROSS THE COMPANY, IN WHAT WAYS ARE THEY NOT GOOD LANDLORDS?

>> I SPOKE WITH A HARVARD RESEARCHER WHO'S BEEN DOING RESEARCH OFTEN THIS AROUND THE COUNTRY AND BASICALLY HE FOUND THAT A LOT OF THESE INVESTORS ARE FOCUSING ON BLACK AND BROWN POOR COMMUNITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY AND THEY ARE FINDING THESE ARE REALLY GOOD PLACES TO MAKE MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HISTORICALLY DISENFRANCHISED.

AND THEN THE RESEARCH HE PARTICULARLY DID IN MILWAUKEE LOOKED AT HOW IN THESE COMMUNITIES, THAT THE LLC PROPERTIES WERE, THERE WERE MORE VIOLATIONS, MORE PROBLEMS, MORE EVICTIONS, SO GENERALLY JUST A LOT -- ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE OUT OF TOWN, OUT OF STATE INVESTORS.

ROSE HAS SPOKEN TO ME A LOT ABOUT HOW A LOT OF THE FOLKS BUYING IN HER COMMUNITY ARE FROM NEW YORK AND BOSTON AND CALIFORNIA.

OR EVEN OUTSIDE OF SPRINGFIELD AND JUST DON'T HAVE THE SAME TYPE OF INTEREST IN BEING HEALTH ACCOUNTABLE OR NEED TO.

>> O'Connell: SO IS THERE A SOLUTION TO THIS?

THIS IS KIND OF A CAPITALIST SOCIETY RIGHT?

IS THERE SOMETHING THAT TOWNS, CITY COUNCILORS, MAYORS, IS THERE SOMETHING THAT ELECTED OFFICIALS DO ROSE TO AT LEAST PUT SOME CURBS ON THIS TO PROTECT TENANTS OR COMMUNITIES?

>> THERE'S PLENTY OF THINGS THAT CITIES AND OPPORTUNITIES TO AND OUR LOCAL LEGISLATORS CAN DO.

SO HOUSING TRUSTS, LAND TRUSTS, RENT CONTROL, LIFTING THE BAN ON RENT CONTROL.

TENANTS FIRST OPPORTUNITY TO PURCHASE TO TURN THOSE BUILDINGS INTO COOPERATIVES SO WE CAN EXPAND HOME OWNERSHIP IN THESE GATEWAY CITIES, STRONGER EVICTION PROTECTIONS, LIKE SEALING YOUR EVICTION RECORDS OTHERWISE KNOWN AS HOMES ACT AND RIGHT TO COUNSEL.

JUST TO NAME A FEW.

>> O'Connell: JENIFER I'M GOING TO DIRECT FOLKS TO YOUR STORY AT WGBH.ORG.

BUT PROTECTIONS FOR PEOPLE, ONE OF THE STORIES YOU WRITE ABOUT, ONE OF THE PEOPLE YOU WRITE ABOUT IN THE STORY LOST HER HUSBAND AND THEN FOUND HERSELF IN A SITUATION WHERE SHE ENDED UP FILING FOR BANKRUPTCY AND BEING A TENANT IN THE SITUATION, WE'VE ONLY GOT A COUPLE MINUTES LEFT BUT CAN YOU TELL THAT STORY?

BECAUSE I THINK WE NEED PROTECTIONS FOR PEOPLE LIKE THAT, AS WELL.

>> SO CHRISTINE THOMPSON, WHO IS SOMEONE THAT ROSE INTRODUCED ME TO, IS A GRANDMOTHER WHO LIVED IN HER HOME FOR ABOUT 50 YEARS UNTIL SHE LOST IT TO AN LLC.

SHE FOUGHT TO KEEP IT.

IT HAD BEEN SORT OF A MESS RELATED TO HER FINANCES AND HER HUSBAND WHO HAD DIED.

AND SHE ENDED UP BEING FORECLOSED UPON AND THEN FORCED OUT.

SHE TRIED TO FIGHT TO SAVE HER HOME.

SHE BOUGHT IT FOR $94,000 AND RECENTLY PUT IT ON THE MARKET FOR NEARLY THREE TIMES THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY.

IN CASES LIKE THAT, I THINK THERE'S HELP THAT COULD BE, I KNOW THAT ROSE HAD TRIED TO HELP HER IN THE LEGAL, THERE IS NOT ENOUGH LEGAL AID FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE FIGHTING THESE TYPES OF EVICTIONS IN THESE PROPERTIES, I THINK THAT'S ANOTHER WAY TO HELP PEOPLE BUT BASICALLY SO OFTEN THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING INTO COURT AND TRYING TO DEFEND THEMSELVES WITH NOBODY TO HELP THEM BECAUSE THERE IS ALSO NO RIGHT TO COUNT.

>> O'Connell: IT'S AMAZING SORT OF A TIME WHEN YOU NEED IT AS MUCH WHEN YOU ARE CHARGE CHARGED IN A CRIMINAL CASE, OBVIOUSLY IN A BANKRUPTCY SITUATION, THERE IS NO RIGHT TO COUNSEL BUT NOT IN THESE COURTS AS WELL.

ROSE WEBSTER-SMITH AND JENIFER McKIM, I APPRECIATE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR INTEREST.

>> THANK YOU.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

THE AMBER-HEARD-JOHNNY-DEPP TRIAL HAS LIT THE INTERNET ON FIRE, BUT AT WHAT COST?

AND WITH SOME BIG "ME-TOO" MEN GETTING OFF THE HOOK RECENTLY, WHERE DO WE STAND IN THE FIGHT FOR GENDER EQUALITY?

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, GOOD NIGHT.

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