>> O'CONNELL: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I'M SUE O'CONNELL, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

WE SAW THE FIRST REAL POLITICAL FALLOUT YESTERDAY FROM MONTHS OF ACCUSATIONS OF RACISM IN EVERETT, WITH TWO HIGH-PROFILE RESIGNATIONS.

BUT MANY SAY THERE'S A LOT MORE THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE IN THAT CITY.

THEN LATER, HAVE WE JUST ALL-OUT FORGOTTEN ABOUT THE METOO MOVEMENT?

BETWEEN THE MOCKERY THAT'S BEEN MADE OF THE AMBER-HEARD-JOHNNY-DEPP TRIAL, AND MARIO BATALI WALKING AWAY FROM SOME PRETTY SERIOUS ACCUSATIONS, IT CERTAINLY STARTING TO FEEL THAT WAY.

WE'LL DISCUSS AHEAD.

>> O'CONNELL: FOR MANY PEOPLE IN EVERETT, THE RESIGNATIONS OF A CITY COUNCILOR AND THE MAYOR'S SPOKESPERSON, AFTER THEY WERE CAUGHT SAYING AND SHARING RACIST MESSAGES, WERE A LONG TIME COMING.

BUT THERE'S MORE WORK TO BE DONE, ACCORDING TO HUNDREDS OF HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS WHO WALKED OUT OF CLASS IN PROTEST YESTERDAY.

>> I'M SO GLAD THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE OUT, BECAUSE THEY SHOULD'VE BEEN OUT A LONG TIME AGO.

>> WE WANT MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR IN THEIR SEATS.

WE WANT THEM TO RESEMBLE US, TO MAKE CHOICES ON OUR BEHALF.

(CHANTING) >> O'CONNELL: ABOUT AN HOUR BEFORE THAT WALK-OUT, AND AHEAD OF ANOTHER RALLY OUTSIDE CITY HALL, EVERETT MAYOR CARLO DEMARIA ANNOUNCED HIS COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR DEANNA DEVENEY AND CITY COUNCILOR ANTHONY DIPIERRO WERE BOTH STEPPING DOWN.

IT'S AN ANNOUNCEMENT THAT CAME MORE THAN TWO MONTHS AFTER WE LEARNED DIPIERRO SHARED A RACIST MEME WITH OTHERS IN THE CITY, REFERENCING THE N-WORD NUMEROUS TIMES.

IT WAS ALSO MORE THAN A WEEK AFTER WE LEARNED OF A LEAKED RECORDING OF DIPIERRO AND DEVENEY JOKING ABOUT ACCUSATIONS OF RACISM, WITH DEVENEY TELLING DIPIERRO TO BRING ONE OF HIS "DARK FRIENDS" TO AN UPCOMING EVENT.

AND IN THE DAYS SINCE, TWO HIGH-PROFILE MASSACHUSETTS FIGURES SPOKE ON THE ISSUE HERE ON GREATER BOSTON, AND BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO.

>> PEOPLE LIKE THAT SHOULD NOT BE SERVING IN OFFICE.

IT'S QUITE SIMPLE.

IF HE DOESN'T HAVE THE DECENCY TO STEP DOWN, HE SHOULD BE MADE TO STEP DOWN.

>> THIS IS GOING TO BE A TELLTALE MOMENT.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE?

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE REMEMBERED AS?

>> O'CONNELL: BUT THE NOW-FORMER CITY COUNCILOR DIPIERRO DOESN'T THINK THIS SHOULD END WITH HIM SAYING IN A STATEMENT YESTERDAY: "I TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS, AND ENCOURAGE OTHERS WHO PARTICIPATED IN THIS HURTFUL, INSENSITIVE BANTER, TO ALSO DO THE RIGHT THING AND STEP DOWN FROM THEIR POSITIONS IN CITY GOVERNMENT."

I'M JOINED BY THE CHIEF EQUITY OFFICER FOR EVERETT PUBLIC SCHOOLS, CORY MCCARTHY.

AND STEPHANIE EBBERT, THE "BOSTON GLOBE" REPORTER WHO PUBLISHED THE DETAILS OF THE LEAKED RECORDING, AND HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THE ACCUSATIONS IN EVERETT CLOSELY OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

I WANT TO START WITH YOU, CORY McCARTHY.

WHO IS HE SPEAKING ABOUT AND CAN WE EXPECT MORE RESIGNATIONS AND MORE ACCUSATIONS TO COME TO LIGHT OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS OR WEEKS?

>> I WOULD BE REMISS TO NOT MENTION -- THANK YOU TO GBH FOR HAVING ME, THANK YOU FOR THE MEMBERS OF GBH WHO ARE REALLY SPEAKING OUT AND GIVING US THE PLATFORM TO SPEAK OUT.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING STEPHANIE EBBERT ON THE CALL AS WELL, THANK YOU TO LEGALLA HERALD AND PAULA FOR PUSHING THE ISSUES TO THE FOREFRONT.

YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S VERY CLEAR, MORALLY CORRUPT POLITICIANS, THERE'S A DIRECT LINK BETWEEN THEM AND CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN.

SO WHEN THEY ARE SPEAKING TO OTHER PEOPLE, THEY KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT SUPPORTIVE OF THEIR COMMUNITY, WHO STAND TO GAIN MONETARILY AND TO GAIN SOCIAL CAPITAL FROM DEFRAUDING AND CORRUPTION AGAINST THEIR COMMUNITY.

SO HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHO HE'S TALKING TO, WE KNOW WHO THEY'RE TALKING TO.

THERE ARE MORE DOMINOES TO FALL, AND I THINK THE STUDENTS MADE IT CLEAR THEY'RE AWARE OF THAT.

THIS IS NOT A ONE AND DONE SITUATION.

>> O'Connell: CORY, IF YOU GO TO THE EVERETT WEB SITE, THERE'S A LOT OF TALK ABOUT INCLUSION AND WELCOMING AND ALL SORTS OF THING IS EVERETT IS, INDEED, WHEN IT COMES TO THE DIVERSITY OF THE CITY.

IS THE MAYOR UP FOR THE JOB MAKING SURE THAT THOSE WHO SHARE RACIST BELIEFS OR HAVE BEEN TALKING IN SUCH A WAY NEED TO COME FORWARD AND RESIGN?

>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, ARE WE HOLDING -- IT'S TOO DIFFERENT KINDS OF EVERETT, RIGHT?

ARE WE HOLDING THIS MAYOR ACCOUNTABLE TO WHAT HE SAYS OR DOES?

IF WE ARE ABLE TO -- HE SHOULD RESIGN BASED ON US HOLDING HIM ACCOUNTABLE TO WHAT HE DOES.

BUT IF THEY WANT TO CONTINUE WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN SPEAKING IN A, QUITE FRANKLY, A SILO OF EMPTINESS FOR SO LONG AND NOT REALLY FOLLOWING THROUGH ON THE THINGS HE SAYS, SURE.

BUT THIS MAYER HAS SHOWN HE HAS, ONE, CONDONED SUCH BEHAVIOR AND, TWO, YOU KNOW, SPOKEN AND TREATED WOMEN, IN PARTICULAR, POORLY IN MEETINGS, WITH THE EXAMPLE OF GIRLIE ADRIENNE.

NO ONE REALLY SPEAKS TO HIS MORAL CHARACTER OF BEING SORT OFO A HIGH CHARACTER.

AND NONE OF THE KIDS WHO WALKED OUT YESTERDAY ARE RUNNING AROUND SAYING THIS GUY SHOULD BE THEIR ROLE MODEL.

I REMEMBER GROWING UP SAYING, HEY, MAYOR FLYNN, YOU WERE A REALLY GOOD GUY IN BOSTON, WE SAW WHAT MENINO WAS ABLE TO GIVE FOLKS.

THEN WE HAVE THIS MAN WHO EMPLOYEES HIS COUSINS AND OTHER MOB-STYLE POLITICIANS IN HIS TOWN, NO, I THINK THE PEOPLE SPOKE CLEARLY YESTERDAY.

>> O'Connell: I WANT TO SHOW AN EXCERPT FROM MAYOR CARLO.

HE SAYS, I BELIEVE THE STEPS ARE ESSENTIAL FOR THE EVERETT TO MOVE FORWARD.

IT IS CRITICAL RESIDENTS KNOW WE MAINTAIN OUR COMMITMENT TO ENGAGE, ELEVATE AND WORK WITH THOSE TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERETT IS A COMMUNITY WHERE EVERYONE IS EMBRACED.

HE'S CERTAINLY A VERY POPULAR MAYOR.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM THE FALLOUT FROM THESE CONVERSATIONS FROM PEOPLE PEOPLE WHO WERE VERY CLOSE TO HIM AND WATCHING THE VIDEO AND READING THE STORIES?

THIS IS A VERY FAMILIAR, INTIMATE CONVERSATION THAT THEY WERE HAVING.

pIT WAS A MILLION DIFFERENT WAYS THEY COULD HAVE HAD THAT CONVERSATION THAT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN OFFENSIVE BUT THEY WENT THERE.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING?

>> I THINK THE REASON WE'RE HEARING ABILITY THIS AND THIS IS ALL HAPPENING NOW IS THAT PEOPLE HAVE REALLY HAD IT WITH THIS.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE PUBLIC SHOWED YESTERDAY BOTH THE STUDENTS-WALKOUT AND THE RALLY LEADER IN THE EVENING THAT THEY ARE JUST NOT TOLERATING IT.

AND IT WAS DISAPPOINTING TO SEE THAT THE -- THAT IT TOOK SO LONG FOR A REACTION LIKE THIS TO HAPPEN BECAUSE I THINK IT DID KIND OF AMP THINGS UP OVER TIME.

PEOPLE WERE FEELING DISRESPECTED AND UNHEARD THAT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE STANDING UP AT PUBLIC MEETINGS, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN COMING REPEATEDLY AND ASKING FOR COUNSEL TO SAY SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, FOR THE MAYOR TO DO SOMETHING DEMONSTRATIVE TO DENOUNCE THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE.

AND THE THE MAYOR HAD SPOKEN UP AND, YOU KNOW, SAID THE RIGHT THINGS BEFORE, BUT THERE WAS A SENSE OF EVERYBODY TOLERATING IT THAT WAS REALLY RUBBING PEOPLE THE WRONG WAY AND GIVING THE WRONG MESSAGE.

SO I DO THINK THAT THERE'S A LOT MORE TO COME.

THIS IS NOWHERE NEAR RESOLVED.

UNFORTUNATELY, THERE'S A LOT OF MORAL RELATIVISM GOING ON IN EVERETT AND I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT MORE FINGER-POINTING DONE BEFORE ALL OF THIS IS QUIETED DOWN.

>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE MORAL RELATIVISM?

>> WELL, A LOT OF THIS STEMS FROM A DISPUTE THAT IS GOING ON IN COURT RIGHT NOW.

THERE'S THE CITY CLERK AND THE MAYOR ARE AT ODDS OVER A PRIVATE REAL ESTATE DEAL THAT THEY WERE ENGAGED IN, AND A LOT OF THESE PRIVATE MESSAGES HAVE BEEN UNEARTHED BECAUSE OF THAT EXCHANGE, BECAUSE OF THE LAWYERS WHO WERE INVOLVED.

SO THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT THERE'S A LOT OF TUMULT, A LOT OF DUST THAT'S BEEN KICKED UP BECAUSE OF THAT.

THE UNFORTUNATE PART IS SO MUCH HAS BEEN -- HAS BEEN REDUCED TO THESE KIND OF PETTY POLITICAL BATTLES THAT PEOPLE HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEE KIND OF A LARGER MESSAGE THAT THEY ARE CONVEYING TO THE PUBLIC AND THAT THE RESIDENTS ARE GETTING WHICH IS THAT THEY FEEL DISRESPECTED, AND THEY DON'T CARE WHO'S SAYING WHAT, THEY CARE SOMEBODY WHO'S AN OFFICIAL IN THE CITY OF EVERETT IS SAYING THOSE THINGS, AND WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THEIR CITY?

SO I THINK THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE QUITE A LOT MORE FINGER POINTING AND SCRAMBLING AS THIS GOES ON, BUT THAT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT STEP THAT HAS BEEN TAKEN, AND THAT PEOPLE SEEM VERY GRATIFIED TO SEE SOME KIND OF ACTION.

>> CORY, WE ARE MARKING THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD AND ALSO THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE OUTCRY ACROSS THE NATION, ESPECIALLY MANY YOUNGER PEOPLE, MANY TEENS AND YOUNG ADULTS GOING TO THE STREETS AND PROTESTING AND DEMANDING CHANGE AND, OBVIOUSLY, WE'RE TWO YEARS IN, ONE COULD ARGUE THAT WE REALLY HAVEN'T SEEN THE CHANGE THAT THEY WERE DEMANDING.

WHAT ARE THE KIDS, TEENS AND YOUNG PEOPLE IN EVERETT TELLING YOU ABOUT HOW THEY'RE FEELING AT THIS MOMENT WHEN ELECTED OFFICIALS AND PEOPLE IN POWER ARE USING LANGUAGE THAT THEY HAVE SO STRONGLY CONDEMNED MAYBE PUBLICLY BUT, BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, IT'S BUSINESS AS USUAL?

>> EVERY STUDENT OF COLOR HAS A STORY, RIGHT, AND EVERY WHITE STUDENT HAS A STORY OF A STUDENT OF COLOR WHO IS THEIR FRIEND WHO HAS A STORY.

SO THAT MEANS THAT THE STUDENTS, THE MOST INCREDIBLE STUDENTS THAT HAVE EVER BEEN AROUND ARE LIVING HARMONIOUSLY, RIGHT, AND THEY ARE FEELING THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE -- UP UNTIL YESTERDAY, MARCH 23, 2022, WHEN THEY DECIDED TO MOVE MOUNTAINS, THEY DID NOT FEEL THERE WAS AN AVENUE FOR THEM TO VOICE THEIR CONCERNS OR, EVEN IF THEIR OPINIONS MATTERED, RIGHT.

SO I THINK THEY TOOK MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS, THEY STARTED WITH SIX STUDENTS, AND MUCH LIKE HISTORY HAS TAUGHT US, THE YOUNG PEOPLE ALWAYS MOVE THE MOUNTAINS.

SO THEY ARE FEELING RIGHT NOW, TODAY, AND THE COMMUNICATION I'VE HAD WITH STUDENTS IS THEY FEEL EMPOWERED, THEY ARE TAKING NOTES, THEY KNOW WHO DIDN'T CALL FOR THESE PEOPLE TO RESIGN, RIGHT, THERE ARE POLITICIANS WHO DIDN'T CALL FOR THESE PEOPLE TO RESIGN, THERE ARE EXECUTIVE BOARD MEMBERS WHO DIDN'T CALL FOR THESE PEOPLE TO RESIGN, THERE ARE SCHOOL COMMITTEE MEMBERS WHO DID NOT CALL FOR THEM TO RESIGN.

DO YOU KNOW WHO DID?

THE PEOPLE ON THIS CALL, OUR SUPERINTENDENT, AND THE STUDENTS.

SO THAT SAYS A LOT.

CAN WE MOVE FORWARD WHERE EVERETT IS NOT RELIANT ON THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND RACHEL RAWLINS TO REALLY PUSH CORRUPT POLITICIANS OUT OF EVERETT.

>> O'Connell: STEPHANIE, THIS SEEMS LIKE ONE OF THESE MOMENTS -- WE HAVE THEM A LOT, SOMETIMES THEY DON'T PAY OFF -- THIS IS ONE OF THESE MOMENTS WHERE THE URBAN TOWNS -- I'M FROM REVERE -- BUT THERE SEEMS THIS MOMENT WHERE PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE GROWN UP ONE WAY IN THINKING THINGS THAT ARE NOW IN CHARGE, WHO ARE WHITE, AND MAYBE SAYING THINGS PUBLICLY TO ATTRACT BUSINESS, TO ATTRACT CASINOS, SO THEY CAN ATTRACT FUNDING, ARE GOING TO HAVE A RECKONING COMING WHERE IF THEY DON'T WALK THE WALK AND TALK THE TALK THEY'RE SAYING THEY DO, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT ADDING PROGRAMS AND FINDING FUNDING, IT'S ABOUT BEHAVING IN A WAY EVEN WHEN YOU'RE WITH OTHER WHITE PEOPLE.

IS THAT A MESSAGE GETTING TO OTHER LAWMAKERS, NOT JUST HERE BUT THERE.

>> I WOULD HOPE THAT IT'S GETTING THROUGH TO EVERYBODY.

IT'S BEEN STRIKING TO ME JUST HOW MANY PEOPLE IN EVERETT JUST REALLY DON'T GET IT.

I MEAN, I THINK EVERYBODY WHO'S WHITE, WE ALL HAD A LOT TO LEARN THESE PAST FEW YEARS, BUT IT'S STILL SO STRIKING TO ME TO SEE THE WAY THAT THINGS ARE NORMALIZED OR SWEPT UNDER THE RUG IN A PLACE LIKE THIS, AND JUST HOW CASUAL IT IS AND HOW COMMON IT IS THAT, YEAH, LIP SERVICE IS GENEROUS, I WOULD THINK, THAT THERE'S -- AND IT'S NOT JUST EVERETT, IT'S OTHER PLACES AS WELL THAT IS I'VE LOOKED AT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I STARTED LOOKING INTO COMMUNITIES LIKE THIS BECAUSE OF GIRLIE ADRIAN, THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN ELECTED TO CITY COUNCIL THERE, WHO WAS HAVING SUCH A HARD TIME WITH HER COLLEAGUES GIVING HER SUCH A HARD TIME, AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT GOING ON.

THERE'S ALWAYS TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY, THERE'S ALWAYS A LOT OF BACKSTORY, BUT YOU HAVE TO REALLY SPEND SOME TIME AND LISTEN -- IF YOU SPEND TIME AND LISTEN TO PEOPLE, YOU WILL STILL HEAR VERY UNVARNISHED DISCRIMINATION.

AND IT'S DISAPPOINTING, OF COURSE, AND I DO THINK THAT IT REQUIRES A LOT OF AIRING OF THESE THINGS SO THAT IT'S NOT DISMISSED AS MERE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS OR, YOU KNOW, WORD POLICING.

>> RIGHT.

THE Facebook PAGES ALONE IN SOME OF THE CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS ALONE ARE ENOUGH TO KEEP YOU BUSY, STEPHANIE EBBERT, FOR QUITE A LONG TIME, AND YOU AS WELL CORY McCARTHY.

I THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

YOU WILL KEEP US POSTED AS THE STORY DEVELOPS.

CORY McCARTHY, STEPHANIE EBBERT, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> O'Connell: IF YOU HAVE BEEN ON THE INTERNET AT ALL THESE PAST FEW WEEKS, YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN A THING OR TWO, OR 200, ABOUT THE AMBER-HEARD-JOHNNY-DEPP TRIAL.

BECAUSE WHAT STARTED AS A DEFAMATION LAWSUIT DEPP FILED AGAINST HIS EX-WIFE QUICKLY DEVOLVED, WITH ACCUSATIONS OF ABUSE FLYING BOTH WAYS AND SALACIOUS DETAILS THAT HAVE INSPIRED A SLEW OF MEMES, TIKTOK TRENDS, AND EVEN A "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE" SKETCH.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON HERE THAT ARE REALLY NO LAUGHING MATTER.

HEARD HAS CLAIMED SHE'S SUFFERED PHYSICAL AND SEXUAL ABUSE AT THE HANDS OF AN OFTEN-DRUNK DEPP.

AND WHILE DEPP DENIES THAT, AND HAS MADE HIS OWN ACCUSATIONS OF VIOLENCE, IT'S HEARD WHO'S BEEN MADE THE BUTT OF NEARLY ALL THE PUBLIC'S JOKES.

I GUESS THE METOO MOVEMENT THAT TOLD US TO BELIEVE WOMEN WAS PUT ON HOLD FOR THE PANDEMIC?

EXHIBIT "B" IN THAT PHENOMENON IS CHEF MARIO BATALI.

ON JUST THE SECOND DAY OF HIS TRIAL EARLIER THIS MONTH, A JUDGE FOUND HIM NOT GUILTY OF ASSAULT AND BATTERY, AFTER BEING ACCUSED OF FORCIBLY KISSING AND GROPING A WOMAN IN A BOSTON BAR.

SO ARE WE JUST BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED BEFORE THE MOVEMENT THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO CHANGE EVERYTHING?

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS ARE DOCTOR TINA OPIE, A VISITING SCHOLAR AT HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL AND ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT BABSON COLLEGE; AND JEN DEADERICK, AUTHOR OF "SHE THE PEOPLE: AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY OF WOMEN'S CITIZENSHIP."

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

TINA, FIRST, I FEEL LIKE WE HAVE TO SET THE TABLE THAT MUCH OF WHAT WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT IS ABOUT LEGAL THINGS THAT AREN'T MOVING FORWARD, BUT THERE'S ALSO THE THINGS IN SOCIETY THAT WE HOPE ARE MOVING FORWARD THAT I IMAGINE THE WALL WILL CATCH UP TO AS, UNFORTUNATELY, IS OFTEN THE CASE.

BUT, TINA, I JUST WANT TO START WITH YOU.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE PUBLIC'S REACTION TO THE AMBER HEARD AND JOHNNY DEPP TRIAL?

>> IT'S A SENSATIONALIST, SALACIOUS CRAP SHOW.

THAT'S WHAT I WOULD SAY.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE, UNFORTUNATELY, SEEING WHAT I WOULD PREFER TO BE A PRIVATE SITUATION PLAY OUT IN THE PUBLIC EYE -- THAT'S THE FIRST THING.

THE SECOND THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT I WOULD REALLY HOPE THAT PEOPLE USE THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY -- THIS IS A SPECIFIC SITUATION.

I HOPE THAT WE DON'T LOSE THE PERSPECTIVE THAT THE #METOO MOVEMENT, FOR ME, WAS ABOUT BELIEVING WOMEN ARE CREDIBLE PEOPLE, THEY ARE LODGING CREDIBLE ACCUSATIONS, AND THAT'S A STARTING POINT.

THEN WE MAY HAVE DATA OR INFORMATION, AND WE LIT DATE LITIGATE THE CASE.

BUT I HOPE WE CAN REMEMBER WE START WITH THE BELIEF THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACCUSING PERPETRATORS, ALLEGED PERPETRATORS ARE CREDIBLE INDIVIDUALS.

>> JEN, I HAVE BEEN -- I FEEL CONCERNED ABOUT HOOKING ALL OF THE HOPES AND DREAMS OF THE #METOO MOVEMENT ON A CASE WHERE I THINK THAT TINA'S POINT, YOU'VE GOT TWO INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE NOT VERY MUCH LIKE OTHER INDIVIDUALS IN THE WORLD -- I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY DOMESTIC AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE HAPPEN EVERYWHERE, BUT THEY'RE OVER HERE.

THEY'RE CELEBRITIES AND THE CASE IS COMPLICATED AND THEY'RE ACCUSING EACH OTHER.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IF YOU LOOK AT THE OTHER CASES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE LEGAL PROGRESS IN ACTUALLY PUNISHING PEOPLE FOR BEHAVIOR THAT I THINK SOME MIGHT SAY IS INDEED CRIMINAL.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> FOR ME, WHAT'S INTERESTING IS WHO'S PAYING FOR ALL OF THE SOCIAL MEDIA WE'RE SEEING?

I MEAN, I HAVE BEEN DOING SOCIAL MEDIA FOR A LONG TIME, I RUN A Facebook PAGE FOR THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT WHICH USED TO GET TARGETED ALL THE TIME BY BOTS DURING THE 2016 ELECTION.

IT WAS OBVIOUS THEY WERE BOTS BECAUSE I WOULD MENTION HISTORIC AND TWO SECONDS LATER THERE WOULD BE, BOOM, A REACTION TO IT BY SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T EVEN FOLLOW THE PAGE.

SO THESE ARE BOTS.

AND MY INITIAL REACTION WAS NAIVELY TO THINK IT'S JOHNNY DEPP'S P.R.

TEAM, THEY'RE JUST PUTTING IT OUT THERE, AND IT ENDS UP IT'S NEWS WIRE, BEN SHAPIRO HAS SPENT THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON PROMOTING THE IDEA THAT JOHNNY DEPP IS INNOCENT THAT AMBER HEARD IS A GOLD DIGGER THAT SHE SHOULDN'T BE BELIEVED IN AN ATTEMPT TO PUSH BACK ON #METOO.

I MEAN, IT'S ALWAYS LIKE MY DAUGHTER SAID, OF COURSE IT WAS BEN SHAPIRO, BECAUSE THE KIDS TODAY, HE'S THEIR FAVORITE PERSON TO PICK ON.

BUT HE -- YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THAT'S -- AND HAVING A LOOK AT THE BEHIND THE SCENES OF THE SOCIAL MEDIA ACTIVITY THAT'S GEARED AGAINST WOMEN, GOING BACK TO GAMERGATE, GOING BACK TO HISTORIC, GOING BACK TO ALL OF IT, IT'S PART OF WHAT SUCKS YOUNG WHITE BOYS, IN PARTICULAR, INTO THESE MOVEMENTS THAT SAY, NO, ALSO, BY THE WAY, IT'S ABOUT WHITE NATIONALISM.

THIS IS SORT OF THE FEEDER PIPE THAT GOES INTO THAT.

>> TINA, YOU ALSO HAVE THE ISSUE OF THE PHANTOM, WHICH IS ITS OWN PARTICULAR MONSTER THAT TAKES OVER ON ALL SORTS OF SIDES.

BUT AS WE'RE AT THIS POINT IN THE #METOO MOVEMENT, TO NOT BE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE THOSE ASPECTS IN THIS TRIAL AND TRY AT LEAST FROM A MEDIA STANDPOINT OR "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE" STANDPOINT, LET THE TRIAL RUN OUT WITHOUT EVERYBODY JUMPING IN TO TRY AND HAVE THESE DECISIONS AND HANGING AN MOVEMENT ON WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT -- THE JURY MAY OR MAY NOT FIND TO BE PLAUSIBLE.

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S A HUGE MISTAKE TO DO THAT.

NO ONE CASE SHOULD MAKE A MOVEMENT, NOR SHOULD ANY ONE CASE POTENTIALLY DISMANTLE A MOVEMENT.

AND I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE SOCIAL MEDIA ASPECT OF THIS.

NPR HAD AN ARTICLE WHICH SAID THAT, I BELIEVE I WANT TO GET THE NUMBERS RIGHT, ON TikTok AS OF THIS PAST MONDAY MORNING, I STAND WITH AMBER HEARD HAS GARNERED ABOUT 8.2 MILLION VIEWS.

IN CONTRAST, JUSTICE FOR JOHNNY DEPP HAS EARNED 15 BILLION VIEWS.

>> O'Connell: WITH A B.

WITH A B.

AND I THINK, TO JEN'S POINT, TO SOME OF THE POINTS YOU'VE RAISED, THERE IS A PILING ON OF SUPPORT FOR JOHNNY DEPP.

I DON'T KNOW AMBER HEARD, I DON'T KNOW JOHNNY DEPP FROM EVE AND ADAM, REALLY, I DON'T KNOW THEM.

BUT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT AN ISSUE OF POWER, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE RELATIONSHIP, MUCH OLDER MEN, FAR WEALTHIER, WHOSE STAR WAS MUCH HIGHER, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE'S LYING OR SHE'S LYING OR WHATEVER, BUT I DO THINK THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS AT MULTIPLE LEVELS, AND WE HAVE TO CONSIDER THE POWER DYNAMICS, AND WHEN YOU HAVE THE KIND OF STATISTICS I JUST SHARED WITH YOU, THERE IS CLEARLY A VERY BIASED PERSPECTIVE.

SOME WOULD SAY THAT'S BECAUSE SHE'S LYING AND HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH.

THINGS ARE MORE TYPICALLY COMPLICATED THAN THAT AS THIS CASE ALLOSE TO.

>> JEN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MARIO BATALI AS WELL AND, AGAIN, THIS IS ONE OF THOSE ISSUES OF WHAT SO TO BELIEVES, WHAT WE MAY BELIEVE AND WHAT GETS TO THE LEVEL OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY.

I MEAN, I FEEL, HAVING REENTERED THE WORKPLACE, THAT THINGS HAVE CHANGED IN THE WORKPLACE, AT LEAST IN MY WORKPLACE.

WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN TO CLOSE THAT GAP FURTHER, THOUGH, THAT SOME BEHAVIOR JUST NOT ONLY IS RUDE BUT ALSO IS CRIMINAL?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THAT -- YOU KNOW, AND I WANT TO SPEAK TO WHAT TINA WAS SAYING ABOUT CELEBRITIES, THAT CELEBRITIES GET AWAY WITH STUFF.

MARIO BATALI -- I MEAN, I WATCHED THE O.J.

SIMPSON TRIAL, YOU WATCHED THE JURY BEING CHARMED BY HIM AND YOU WATCHED MARIO BATALI IS A FAMOUS CHEF PEOPLE HAVE SEEN ON THE FOOD NETWORK AND THEY WANT TO BELIEVE THE BEST OF HIM.

THE YOUNG WOMEN WHO ARE RALLYING TO JOHNNY DEPP, THEY GREW UP WITH HIM.

HE'S WILLY WONKA, HE'S EDWARD SCISSORHANDS.

SO IN TERMS OF WORKPLACE, OBVIOUSLY THINGS HAVE CHANGED.

MY MOTHER APPLIED FOR A JOB AT WGBH IN THE '60s.

IN HER JOB INTERVIEW, THE MAN GIVING THE TOUR KEPT GRABBING HER BUTT.

A FRIEND SAID THAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME, YOU GET USED TO IT.

THAT DOESN'T THAT ANYMORE AT GBH, I PRESUME.

ONE OF THE THING THAT HAPPENED IN THE #METOO MOVEMENT IS WOMEN STARTED TELLING MEN THEIR STORIES.

THE MEN SAID, I HAD NO IDEA IT'S LIKE THAT, I DON'T ACT LIKE THAT.

THE WOMEN WOULD SAY, EVERY WOMAN HAS EXPERIENCED THAT.

IT'S STARTING TO SLOWLY CHANGING THINGS IN WAYS THAT ARE -- I MEAN, TINA COULD SPEAK BETTER TO THIS, IN THE WORKPLACE, WHERE IT'S NOT CELEBRITIES, WHERE IT'S REGULAR PEOPLE INTERACTING DAY TO DAY, AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE ACTUAL CHANGE IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> O'Connell: TINA ARE WE ALSO AT A PLACE MAYBE WHERE WE CAN SAY BELIEVE VICTIMS, BELIEVE WOMEN, BELIEVE PEOPLE ACCUSING PEOPLE OF THIS KIND OF MISCONDUCT AND ALSO INVESTIGATE IT FULLY?

YOU KNOW, I THINK SOMETIMES WE GET CAUGHT UP IN WE BELIEVE A PERSON, WELL THEY MAY NOT BE CREDIBLE, BUT IT SHOULDN'T THROW EVERYTHING ELSE OUT.

AS A SOCIETY, CAN WE MANAGE THOSE TWO MESSAGES?

>> I THINK -- I HOPE WE CAN, BUT I THINK IT'S DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO DO THAT BECAUSE, ON THE ONE HAND, SOME PEOPLE VIEW TREATING THE ACCUSER AS CREDIBLE, AS SORT OF PROBLEMATIC, IF YOU ARE GOING TO INVESTIGATE IT FULLY, AND VICE VERSA, MEANING SOME PEOPLE JUST BELIEVE WHAT THE ACCUSER SAYS AND DON'T INVESTIGATE IT, HER WORD IS GOOD ENOUGH.

I KNOW I'M GOING TO GET BLOWBACK FROM SAYING THAT.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS.

I'M SITTING HERE AS A BLACK WOMAN WHO WATCHED BLACK MEN BE FALSELY ACCUSED OF THINGS THROUGHOUT HISTORY AND LYNCHED AND MURDERERRED AS A RESULT OF THAT SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME TO FULLY JUMP IN AND SAY BELIEVE EVERY ACCUSER.

AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK IT'S CRITICAL, GIVEN THE WAY POWER DYNAMICS WORK IN THIS WORLD THAT WE START FROM A POSITION THAT THE AC ACCUSER IS CREDIBLE AND THEN WE THOROUGHLY INVESTIGATE, AND WHEN WE GET INFORMATION THAT SUPPORTS OR REFUTES THE ACCUSER'S STORY, THAT WE MOVE AHEAD WITH THAT, THAT WE MAKE DECISIONS UPON THAT.

THE CHALLENGE IS, DURING THE PROCESS OF LITIGATION, THERE'S OFTEN ALSO THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, WHICH CAN SORT OF SUPERIMPOSE ITSELF AND BLIND PEOPLE WHO ARE VIEWING THIS TO WHAT MAY ACTUALLY BE THE LEGAL ISSUES AT HAND.

I MEAN, THERE'S BIAS INVOLVED.

THERE'S BIAS INVOLVED AND I THINK THAT CAN PREVENT US FROM PROPERLY BALANCING THOSE TWO THINGS.

>> JEN, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC?

ARE YOU FEELING THAT WE HAVE MADE PROGRESS, WE'RE NOT WHERE WE NEED TO BE BUT MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?

>> IT DEPENDS ON THE DAY.

I MEAN, YEAH, IT'S LIKE I SAID, IF I WENT TO AN INTERVIEW FOR A JOB AT GBH TODAY, I'M SURE THE GUY INTERVIEWING ME WOULDN'T THINK HE COULD GRAB MY BUTT AS HE WAS DOING THE INTERVIEW.

SO I THINK THERE'S PROGRESS.

I THINK MEN HAVE TO GET USED TO THE IDEA OF BEING DISAPPOINTED IN JOHNNY DEPP BECAUSE WOMEN HAVE HAD TO LIVE WITH BEING DISAPPOINTED WITH MEN THEY'VE LOVED AND TRUSTED FOR A LONG TIME.

I SEE THE CHANGE IN THE MEN, CELTICS PLAYERS SAYING HOW MUCH THEY LOVE THEIR BABIES AND HOLD THEIR BABIES, AND I THINK MEN ARE BEING MORE PUBLIC WITH STUFF.

>> THEY HAVE TO SIT WITH THEIR MEETINGS.

TINA OPIE, JAN DEADRICK, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

HAPPY TUESDAY TO YOU.

>> THANKS, BYE.

>> O'Connell: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

I'LL BE JOINED BY ELIZA REID, THE FIRST LADY OF ICELAND, ON HER BOOK, "SECRETS OF THE SPRAKKAR: ICELAND'S EXTRAORDINARY WOMEN AND HOW THEY ARE CHANGING THE WORLD."

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org