- [Kelly] It seems House and Senate budget negotiators have reached a snag in their negotiations.

The UNC system votes to end DEI programs system-wide, and Republicans gather in Greensboro as Democrats Tour Eastern North Carolina.

This is "State Lines" - [Narrator] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music continues] ♪ - Hello again, welcome back to "State Lines," I'm Kelly McCullen.

Joining me here at the big round table, political analyst Joe Stewart, Senator Gale Adcock of Wake County, to her right representative Kyle Hall, who represents Forsyth and Stoke Counties, and our good friend and Capital Bureau chief of "The News and Observer," Dawn Vaughan in seat four.

Hello everyone.

Well it was a quiet week.

It's Memorial Day weekend and then it pops up, the budget pops up, and you're in the middle of this, Dawn, because I'm gonna give your team full credit.

"The News and Observer" led the coverage this week on a possible snag on what I thought was previously a very quiet house and Senate budget negotiation to just tweak the existing budget bill or law.

Senate President Phil Berger says he cannot support house plans to spend $1 billion, with a B, dollars in earmarks using money from the State's Reserve Fund.

House and Senate negotiators are very quick to say, or at least tell you, Dawn, that the budget talks were still "on track."

The state passed a two year budget in 2023.

So even if the budget talks stall this summer, we still have a state budget in place.

The show runs on, and none of the goodies, and a lot of like railroad on the tracks derailed.

What's the status, Dawn?

- Well, I've asked Senate Leader Berger and Speaker Moore for the past few weeks, 'cause I cover the budget, how are things going, where do things stand?

And it's all about the different chairs, the big chairs and the sub chairs meeting.

And then when it gets to Berger and Moore, that's when it actually, does the train stay on the on the tracks or not?

And it was Berger saying a couple weeks ago, "Things haven't gone off the rail yet."

I asked him on Tuesday, he said, "I'm not ready to sound the alarm yet."

Then on Thursday I knew that he and Moore had met, and Moore said, "This is kind of how the process is.

We'd like it to go faster."

And it is what the process is.

The budget always drags out.

There's always something to negotiate on, and that's generally a good thing.

It shows that people have different opinions, different priorities on spending.

The Senate always likes to cut taxes more and give smaller raises.

The House likes to give bigger raises and maybe not cut taxes as fast.

But the sticking point now that Senator Berger said, is that the house wants to spend a billion from reserves, and the Senate is more conservative with savings.

Now the house says that's not quite where things stand according to what one of the head budget chairs, Jason Stein.

And then Moore's office said, "Well maybe we need to send the Senate a calculator."

And it's not quite that.

So this is just kind of how things are.

And like you said, it's a two year budget, so you don't have to pass a budget this year.

It's more of a smaller bill, an adjustment bill.

- All right, well Representative Hall, you're an up and comer there.

Is it full steam ahead with the budget talks?

- Yeah, I actually serve as one of the House of Preparations chairs.

And I will say that we have been working very well in good faith with the Senate.

Everything has been very kumbaya.

We've met with our area chairs already, and they've reported back, and there hasn't been a lot of disagreement.

I don't exactly know what happened between Speaker Moore and Senator Berger.

I wasn't in the room.

I'm sure we could have sold tickets for it and made some money off of it.

But we do this every year.

It's always at this point where there's this tug of war between the House and the Senate, and who's gonna do what better.

And at the end of the day, we're gonna come together and we're gonna have a budget that I think every North Carolinian could be proud of.

- Let's not trust the reporter and the mainstream media representative.

[all laugh] Is your caucus, you're on that budget writing team, are you asking to spend a billion dollars in reserve funds, and a billion dollars go into what's called pork, or earmarks?

- Not necessarily.

We've got a lot of issues like the Toyota plant that needs a lot of water and sewer infrastructure there.

So I don't know if you would necessarily call that pork spending, 'cause that's definitely economic development.

We've had a lot of back and forth with these huge pots of money and what to do.

We've obviously got a lot of money in reserves, and I think the house perspective is that we should use some of those reserve dollars.

- So that's right then.

So Berger, the House wants to spend savings, and the Senate doesn't.

- What did not collecting that extra $500 million, coming in $500 million below projections on the surplus affect that discussion?

Amongst your team and with the Senate budget writers?

- Well, I think that's why the reserve talk is happening is because the surplus wasn't quite as big as we had anticipated originally.

And then the April surprise came.

And so like I said, we've been going back and forth with the Senate, and finally Speaker Moore and Senator Berger met this week.

And like I said, I don't know what happened in the room, but I would've loved to have seen it.

- Senator Adcock, anytime Republicans fight over a budget, it does crack the door open for Democrats to make a point.

And that point will be what?

- Well, there's some things that we definitely need to address, whether we do it in the budget or we do it in these mini budget bills.

I think the Medicaid rebase has to have some money added to it.

I know that, you know, being a healthcare provider myself, a nurse practitioner, I know that the private duty nursing rate for Medicaid needs to be bumped up again because- - What is rebase?

- That's the reset of what it's gonna cost to continue to deliver traditional Medicaid, the non-managed care Medicaid.

So I think there's something, and then, you know, there's always the issue of do the teacher and say employee raises need to be adjusted.

And so whether that comes as part of a big budget bill or that comes in some smaller budget bills, I don't know.

I do know that even though I'm not a budget chair, I know my senate colleagues who are working really hard behind the scenes and don't have a lot to share right now, but I know they're committed to work through the process.

- Joe, this is, this is not the first rodeo with Phil Berger kind of taking a conservative approach, if you will, in a house with, with a lot of people in there.

People Toyota plants and ball fields and good things and Medicaid.

How does this end up, do we end on June 30th or do we have a labor day of legislative action?

- Well, you know, in the legislative process there's the thing and then there's the thing about the thing, and then there's the thing about the thing about the thing.

And that's kind of where we are in this process.

So you have the speaker and the president pro tem may be exchanging barbs at this point as a point of negotiation between the two chambers.

And even when one party controls both they don't always agree on things like the budget.

But as has been said, we have a biennial budget in this state.

So there's a document under which we could operate, even if there's not an agreement to do more with the additional billion dollars that's been collected in this fiscal year and next, and so I think ultimately there's no reason for haste.

I mean, the desire to be able to get done in the short session is as much as anything about the fact that it's an election year and that the members want to go back to their district and talk about what they accomplished that's of interest to their constituents, and so whether that occurs in July or August or even September, may not be as relevant as making sure that whatever the amount that's being spent makes sense for the projects for which it's being spent.

- Well, the fiscal year starts July 1st, but North Carolina has a continuing resolution, which means if you don't pass a budget, which is /what happened in 2019, the spending levels just stay the same as the previous year.

And again, since this is an off year, there's already allocations, you know, planned for this coming year.

I think there will be one, I think it could be into July or August because sometimes there's a lot of policy in the budget and Burger Moore don't always agree on that.

And this is Moore's last year in the legislature.

So he probably has some things he wants to get through.

- And I happen to know there's some groups who didn't get money in the budget who are interested in getting some money this time.

So if there is no budget that will impact many of their operating budgets.

- How does it affect things, Joe, if there's no goodies there, there's a billion in surplus there.

If it isn't allocated, it just goes to reserves.

We have a budget in place.

So 2024 is gonna be a very close election year for many races.

I would think elected leaders, at least some of them would really like to reach a budget deal.

- Well, as representative Hall alluded many times what's referred to as pork is money that went into another member's district.

And so to some extent these are all worthy projects.

Even if it's something that a particular legislator wants for their particular district, it still is ultimately beneficial to the people in North Carolina to have these resources spent in a way that provides some greater quality of life or assures some greater governmental service.

So I think at the end of the day, it probably makes sense for the legislature to consider using some of this surplus to make solid investments, teacher pay, of course, looking at what state and government employees are getting the number of positions that are vacant in state government, maybe bonuses instead of an increase in pay.

There are a lot of needs out there, and so spending the billion dollars more than was expected to be collected, probably not a bad idea.

- Well, surplus is one time money though.

- Right.

- So it could go to bonuses, but something recurring like raises that, that extra money wouldn't work there as much.

- Right.

- All right, well the UNC systems Board of Governors has voted to end DEI programs and redirect DEI funds.

That vote came this week.

The board of governors created the policy to allow DEI programs about five years ago.

So this DEI program repeal will require each UNC system campus to issue a plan of action to be given to UNC system President Peter Hans.

Those plans will outline potential job cuts or actual job cuts, job description changes for current DEI related employees, and exactly how those funds once redirected will be reallocated.

And you know, just on Thursday, Peter Hans clapped back at the UNC Board of trustees because they wanted some, what, $3 million about to go from DEI to public safety.

The president said, no, no, that's not for student success.

This money is for student success and achievement.

- Right, so we'll see how that plays out at the UNC Chapel Hill level.

But the UNC Board of Governors had said by, basically by the end of the summer that these shifts need to be made and it's enough of a runway that we don't know exactly yet if people are going to lose their jobs or if it can be shifted into something else.

But it, I would imagine some people would or some things would have to change 'cause there's only certain amounts in a budget and how much room you have to pay salaries and what people do.

So it's gonna upset things for the next few months as far as what the campuses are gonna do.

- Representative Hall, when it comes to legislature, you're watching what the UNC board of Governors What they do.

That's a very powerful boards- billions of dollars that they oversee as well.

So what is the dynamic between the Board of Governors and legislators who watch?

'Cause we've seen you from the outside.

Legislators nudge in, but don't really step into such issues.

It just takes care of themselves at that level.

- Right.

I will say, I'll pull a plug for my alma mater, UNC Chapel Hill, their board of trustees got this ball rolling, and I think that was the appropriate step to take, that each individual school have a stake in it.

And you know, obviously, with the protests that were going on on the Chapel Hill's campus, it led the board of trustees to really consider the public safety measures that are needed at that school.

As far as the legislature is concerned, we're looking at this from the Board of Governors and hoping that, you know, I think this decision is a very wise decision.

Because DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, sounds good on paper, but its practice may have the alternative effect.

And we're seeing it both in the public sector and the private sector, people starting to shift away from DEI.

And so, you know, I think UNC Chapel Hill made the wise decision by shifting it over to public safety.

But again, that's up to the Board of Governors to make that call.

- Senator Adcock, how- university can change its policies and can do what it would like as is appointed to do so.

If DEI ends, how tight and how thin is that tight rope they have to walk to make sure they still maintain an inclusive campus?

Because they were proud of that for 200 years.

We're talking about the last five years.

- Yeah, beyond what's happening on campuses right now, what I'm concerned about is the impact globally, the impact on recruitment of students, and students who feel welcome and included, and that everybody's voice is heard, right?

Not just one kind of voice.

And that the recruitment of faculty and retention of good faculty, because you can't have an excellent university without a very diverse student body, but also a diverse and accomplished faculty.

And I worry about how that will affect faculty recruitment and retention in our state, because everybody across the country I talk to, my nursing colleagues in particular who teach at universities across the country, and they're seeing, you know, there's that kind of churn of retirements and people moving to other places.

There are other places for our faculty to go and to do the research they do, the teaching they do.

And if other places are more attractive to them, we'll lose them.

And I worry about the quality of our universities if that were to happen.

- So do you believe that not having a DEI office and eliminating it overshadows the decades or even century or more of, like, great research that has gone on, for instance, at UNC Chapel Hill or the a hundred year legacy of work at East Carolina?

Is a five year run of a department that proved to be temporary enough to offset all of that reputation?

- I don't know about that.

- Okay.

- But I will say that whatever you call it, call it DEI, call it anything else, that that history of inclusiveness, that history of trying to have a broad perspective of students and faculty is important no matter what you call.

And does it need to be concentrated in an office?

I don't know.

As long as it is implemented, as long as it's embraced across a university system, that's what's most important.

- Joe, turning to you, this is always a tough topic to discuss, because those who believe in DEI think it needs to be codified.

It's part of the structure of anything that we do, your organizations and universities aside.

Others say it was a sledgehammer used over us for five years, and now the tables have turned.

The opposite reaction to a reaction.

- You know, this may be an issue that just as a reflection of the increasing complexity of these types of issues in our culture.

I mean, we think of race and ethnicity and gender identity and sexual orientation.

There's a far greater sense of the array of options within all of those different factors in the continuum in institutions of higher education.

And whether they're public universities or private universities, have to figure out what's the right pathway forward, as Senator said.

Make sure that they are appropriately inclusive, that people feel welcome, that there's equal opportunity for educational attainment in these institutions regardless of how you identify or how you reflect racially or ethnically.

So it's complicated, and I don't know that we found the best way to address it yet, but I think it's important to continue to talk about what's the right way to make sure these campuses feel inclusive.

- We have our problems, but our state just does seem to truck right along.

And by the way, folks, PBS North Carolina is part of the UNC system.

Let's move to our next story where legislative Republicans could be ending a law actually that automatically expunges records of people who are found not guilty or who had had their charges dismissed.

It's complex laws, the current law passed back in 2020, yet it's been on hold for two years now.

Most democrats, a lot of advocates, don't want the law repeal, even if it's on hold.

Republicans say the system simply isn't working, Joe.

In fact, people's records are being expunged before humans can process them.

And folks are staying in jail longer, and there's a lot of problems.

By the way, that law passed unanimously, over a hundred votes in the house.

Everybody liked it.

What happened?

- Well, part of the challenge is here when the law was being discussed and debated back in 2020, one of the statistics that was mentioned is that one in four North Carolinians have some sort of criminal record that may impact issues like employment or housing.

And so the desire is for these nonviolent offenses for which there was a not guilty or the charge was, itself, dismissed to try to remove whatever stigma there might be associated with that particular person's involvement with the criminal justice system.

The challenge is, as representative Sarah Stevens who's been the champion on this particular piece of legislation said, it's a mess because the situation that it's dealing with is messy.

People have criminal records and they get involved in various things.

They may have two or three different offenses, two or three different counties, different jurisdictions.

Were they're being prosecuted.

I think at the end of the day, part of the reason why, what was called the Second Chance Act was halted, is it wasn't working practically because the situations it was trying to deal with were complicated.

And I think at this point it probably does make sense to drop back and say, we are all in agreement that this would be good public policy to make sure people are not, in some ways stigmatized, but it's gotta make sure that it makes sense so that people are not being adversely impacted as they go through the criminal justice system.

- Senator Adcock, do you see any issue with halting a law, repealing it, and maybe revisiting it?

Or do you sense there may not wanna revisit expungement once they repeal the law?

- Well, Representative Hall and I both know how hard it is to pass a law and when you get that many votes in favor, to think about dropping it and starting over again is not something I would wanna see.

I also think it's a really good public policy move, and rather than trash it, we should look at how to make it more practical to implement.

You don't just throw it out, in my opinion.

So I think there's a lot of space between letting it continue to all the problems we're hearing now versus just totally repeal it.

I don't want us to go back to the drawing board on that.

- And at the same time, relying on stakeholders, you know, Senator Adcock and I just pretend to be lawyers in the state legislature.

- [Senator Adcock] We're three years short of a law degree.

- Yeah.

So we're definitely not experts on court matters, but it comes to my understanding that this is a request of the DAs and the clerks when it comes to record retention.

And getting all those stakeholders in a room too, while you're going through the legislative process and getting them all to agree is also very complicated.

- And there's ecourts, and so it seems like the court system just got in trying to modernize... Paperwork is winning this one, Dawn, this automated stuff and AI and computers, and I don't- - Well, I would just say, have you ever done any work to remodel your home?

It's always messy in the middle.

Anytime you make a change like that.

And so, for us to think it's too messy, we should just back off and leave it unfinished.

Makes me a little nervous.

- What do you think, Dawn?

You follow these issues.

This is just one of many bills down there but a repeal of a law is pretty stark answer to a bill or a law doesn't work.

- Well, I'm not a lawyer either, so... [Dawn laughing] - Give us your best shot.

- You did mention ecourts and that has had a lot of issues with its rollout and that's something that is kind of sputtering along.

People have different views on whether that should go ahead or needs to be fixed.

And it's, you know, like anything else with legislation, with changing things, there's gonna be hiccups.

Like there's never gonna be a perfect rollout.

And so it's basically comes down to, do we throw something out and start over?

Do we keep going and fix it along the way?

Like a car with it's, you know, losing one wheel, do you change the tire or get a new car?

So I think we're seeing that the same kind of thing going on.

- Is there still bipartisan support at such, not extreme levels, extreme is the wrong word, unanimous level to do expungements even if this law is repealed?

Because I've read a lot of articles about it.

They're written or they're spoken as if you're trying to repeal expunging records.

I'm perceiving this as a procedural problem is that- - Well it's the core of the desire to make it automatic.

You can get a record expunged now, but you have to hire a lawyer, and there's a process and there's an expense.

Representative Deb Butler, in the debate on this bill said, she had a brother had gone through this process, but fortunately, her parents were able to afford the legal representation to get it done.

The desire to make it automatic is so that everybody, even people with modest means, would have the ability to have these not guilty or dismissed charges removed from their record.

- It's kinda leveling the playing field for that.

- When it's repealed, do you see it going back in the long session trying to repurpose this law or trying to rewrite it or reintroduce it in some way?

- I'm sure that's probably part of the process.

- I don't think we need to talk about long session yet, right?

[group laughing] - Well, I don't know that if this is that complicated that you can really do it in a short session.

It's hard to get people's attention for a big policy issue in a short session when people are trying to get session done.

- And this short session is intended to be short.

- And there's bipartisan appeal.

There is a bipartisan appeal for you folks to get a summer break at least before you head to campaign season.

Speaking of campaign season, Republicans in North Carolina are gathering in Greensboro this weekend for the 2024 State Convention.

There are nearly 5,000 locally elected delegates, and they are expected to officially nominate Donald Trump for president.

Mr. Trump received 76% of the primary vote in March.

Representative Hall, you said you're going, at least dropping by for a visit.

What do you expect out of the GOP convention?

And what do they mean as compared to the importance of the National GOP Convention where you nominate the presidential candidates?

- Yeah, I'm heading there to Greensboro right after we wrap up here.

And I know what I will expect as a lot of enthusiastic people for electing President Trump again as well as Republicans up and down the ballot.

We've got a lot of great volunteers and activists that are gonna be there this weekend to really get them mobilized for the work that we have to do in November, which I think we're gonna be very successful in November.

I think that if the average North Carolinian looks at the past four years under Joe Biden, seeing open border policies, anybody just coming in.

You go to the grocery store and the price of food is just skyrocketed.

Crime rate is going up in our cities across America.

Our foreign policy is kind of abysmal.

I think at the end of the day, a voter is gonna go to the voting booth and remember that under Donald Trump America was a much better place.

- Now with the state GOP convention, do down ballot candidates get bumps?

Does the media care as much about a GOP convention as they do following the top of the ticket, your Mark Robinson's, your Hal Weatherman's, as they tour just individually across the state?

- Well, last year the GOP Convention you know, had a lot of big names.

It had DeSantis, it had Pence, it had Trump there.

And so because of that level of interest at the time and who the guest speakers were, it's Laura Trump, who's from North Carolina.

Trump's daughter-in-law will be there this weekend.

Robinson's expected to speak.

Not everybody's going.

Senate leader Berger is not going.

I think it's part of it.

It could be the timing of Memorial Day weekend and what your priorities are if you wanna get together with others in your party.

So it's not as high profile of an event as it's been in the past.

And I think we'll see kind of, you know, the different wings of the Republican party.

Obviously, the Trump and MAGA wing and the more, I guess, establishment conservatives and what they think about that.

But it seems like the various wings of the party still want their whole ballot elected.

You know, whether or not your favorite is who the presidential nominee is going to be versus down ballot in the legislature 'cause everybody in the legislature is on the ballot this fall, too.

And then, of course, Council State.

- Now I wanna split this story up and talk about the North Carolina and National Democrats who were on tour or making stops across North Carolina in the eastern part of the state this week.

It's a two day, six city tour on Thursday and Friday, visiting places from Elizabeth City over to Greenville.

They headed west into Smithfield and the Democrats are focused on African American voters in this region, and to illustrate what they say President Biden has been doing for rural voters.

Senator Adcock, I wanna ask what you think of the GOP convention.

I can predict that.

However, the Democrats are doing a counteroffensive in the East as the Republicans meet in the central, sort of the western part of the state for some folks.

- Well, what I would say is this is a great indicator of how interested everybody is in North Carolina and how important they believe North Carolina's gonna be in this election.

And what the Democrat National Committees doing this weekend in Eastern North Carolina is visiting towns in these various counties to bring home the point that a lot of investments have been made by the Biden administration, mostly through the American Recovery Act, but also recovery plan, but also through the bipartisan infrastructure bill.

And one of the stops I know they made yesterday was to Elizabeth City State University, where $15 million was invested through the ARPA to help them with all of their needs because they've been underfunded for so long.

So I think we can all agree that North Carolina is of great interest to both parties in this election.

- And Joe, they say only the big cities matter in North Carolina anymore.

Hogwash!

They went to Elizabeth City, Greenville, Smithfield, you know, they stopped in Goldsboro, they had to.

- [chuckles] Well, I think to some extent the amount of attention North Carolina's getting by the national political parties is some indication of the belief that North Carolina remains a battleground state in the presidential contest.

Donald Trump has won twice here.

He won by fewer votes than he did in 2020 than he did in 2016.

The polling at this point still seems to favor President Trump in the reelection, but we have to remember in 2020, Roy Cooper got 75,000 more votes cast for him than Donald Trump did.

There were Trump-Cooper supporters in 2020 and there may well be Trump-Stein supporters in the 2024 election.

And so it's not just about the battleground nature and the presidential contest.

I think the national parties on both sides see their presence as being important for these top of the ticket state races.

But to some extent, I think it is safe to say, the perception that North Carolina is a battleground state in the presidential contest probably will be true up until about Labor Day.

And then the decision will be made principally by the Biden campaign, whether they stay here or shift resources to other states that are more battleground-y.

- And a Trump-Stein voter would be a fun person to talk to.

Thank you so much, Joe, for being on.

Senator, I hope you had a good experience on State Lines.

I hope you'll come back.

- I'd love to.

- Representative Hall, same for you too.

Thanks.

Good luck this weekend.

And Dawn, always good to see you.

Even better to see you folks watching State Lines.

Email your thoughts and opinions to statelines@pbsinc.org.

I'll read every email.

I'm Kelly McCullen.

Thanks for watching.

We'll see you next time.

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