The ranking Republican on the House Ethics Committee, Representative Tom Kunse is up next on OTR.

Our lead story, the Republican U.S. Senate race gets ugly.

Around the OTR table.

Kyle Melinn, Clara Hendrickson and Colin Jackson sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in part by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and public policy engagement.

Learn more at MartinWaymire.com.

And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much Welcome to this holiday weekend edition of off the record and we're taping on Thursday morning.

So whatever happens on Friday this important you won't hear it That's just a forewarning.

Okay.

The US Senate race on the Republican side starting to get a little ugly.

Well, it could be.

I mean, Sandy Pensler, who is running to get the nomination against Mike Rogers, who is the presumed front runner, the polls show him way up.

He is going on the attack because he has to.

He's in the single digits somewhere.

And Mike Rogers is got the Trump endorsement and the he's really got a glide path to the nomination right now.

So if you're running for the Senate like Sandy Pensler is or Justin Amash or Dr. Sherry, who was on the show last week, you've got to go after the frontrunner.

Well, how do you account for the fact that some of the Trumpers want Mr. Trump to undo what he'd done did with Mr. Rogers?

Well, I think that's the thing.

If you get the take the campaign text from Mike Rogers, everything you get every few days I've been getting is a new Trump at former Trump administration official is endorsing Mike Rogers, a new person from that realm endorsing Mike Rogers.

And I think that as much as some of the people from the Trump loyalists want him to undo that endorsement, Mike Rogers is doing the best he can to show, No, I'm in this world.

I have the bone a few days and I have the support of the former president.

And I think that's where his path is, at least to the nomination.

I think the big question right now is it feels a little bit like Groundhog Day with 2022, some uncertainty over the signatures that some of the Republican senatorial candidates filed.

And, of course, the Michigan Democratic Party flagged potential issues after the challenge deadline.

But we're going to face another, you know, potentially fraught certification to get on the ballot, just like we saw two years ago.

Well, clearly, the Trump endorsement is just gold, solid gold in the primary.

What does what do we see?

A pivot and let's assume Mr. Rogers gets the nomination.

Does he do a pivot away from Mr. Trump for the general election?

See, I'm not quite sure because I don't think Trump Trump is running as a different kind of candidate in 2024 than he was in 2020 or even 2020 or 2016.

He's going for the same kind of issues that I think Mike Rogers believes he can win on, whether it's immigration, EVs.

He sees Trump and Rogers as path to victory, being on a very similar path.

So I don't think he pivots away from Trump because if Trump doesn't win Michigan, Mike Rogers probably doesn't win either.

It's not as if Rogers is going to outdo Trump, and I just don't see it.

So I think they're kind of joined at the hip, whether they like it or not, and that their their success path is linked.

Well, isn't there a problem with independent voters and would be Republicans who are not happy with Mr. Trump?

I mean, that's the thing.

It's the fear of the Democrats trying to run opposition on Mike Rogers.

That's something you want to highlight as much as possible that this tie them as much as possible to the worst parts of the Trump administration.

From Democrats view point and some of the people in the Trump orbit that have now endorsed Rogers, that Rogers is now sending, like I said, promoting these endorsements from.

At the same time, though, from the Rogers perspective, he's in terms of this primary, he's not really referencing Sandy pens.

They're just an image in his campaign materials.

He's going after Elissa Slotkin because he's running like the presumed front runner.

He's running like he doesn't have a lot of Republican competition in this primary challenge.

So I think for all intents and purposes, a lot of his sights are already on that general instead of this primary.

So what happened to the debate on the island?

It totally fell.

Apart.

I don't think it was ever together.

Well, it sounded like the Detroit Regional Chamber has some assurances from Slotkin and Rogers that they'd be there.

And the other candidates, they commissioned this poll, which, you know, surveys are not cheap, so they had to make a little bit of an investment to make sure that they were inviting the top polling candidates.

And then I forget exactly what order happened, like what happened when.

But basically, Slotkin pulled out, Rogers pulled out and they were operating under the premise that one of them would be there.

Slotkin said.

I'll be there if there's three Democrats and three Republicans, and that wasn't going to happen.

Well, Rogers pulled the plug.

I mean, that's flat out.

Mike Rogers did not want to debate.

The reason he didn't want to debate is because what we've been talking about so far on the show, Sandy Pensler is punching up.

He has he is way down in the polls.

Rogers is going to win this primary in all likelihood is going to win this primary.

He doesn't want to subject himself to be in attack by Sandy Pensler or Justin Amash if he wanted to show up or Cheri O'Donnell if she was even invited in the first place.

So, you.

Know, and upset.

So that's Sandy Pensler then attacking Mike Rogers.

And then he was afraid then that Slotkin starts attacking him, too, is kind of a preemptive on the general election.

A sudden.

We got a two on one break.

And then Yeah, exactly.

And he becomes a punching bag.

So he says no.

And then Slotkin says no, because Rogers is not there.

And before you know it, the whole thing goes.

Biden Mr. Biden in town for the NAACP, how did that go?

Well, he was in Detroit for his first campaign stop in the city this year, obviously a critical city for his reelection.

He spoke for about 12 minutes.

And, you know, this is a is a crowd of who's who in Michigan Democratic politics.

So it's a really supportive crowd.

I think the big question is, does his message resonate beyond the halls of Huntington Place to voters across the state?

If you look at the data in 2020, Biden underperformed compared to Clinton in 2016.

And when you look at the vote share in most majority-black cities, I spoke to a senior adviser with the Biden campaign in Michigan, a couple of weeks ago, and he basically said we cannot afford to repeat that result this year.

Did he hit it out of the park?

He definitely got a warm reception.

Unfortunately, where I was sitting, the press table was a little bit muddled.

So maybe people closer got.

What did they have you in the bathroom or what?

Exactly?

Lateral to the stage.

But I really think the big takeaway here is sort of as he's honing in, homing in on this message of preserving American democracy, he's kind of recognizing some of the shortcomings of that message, particularly with black voters.

He had this line that America has always strived to achieve equality.

We're not there yet, but Trump would turn his back on that ideal.

So Mr. Biden is doing okay with the African-American vote, but he doesn't have the numbers that they want.

Is that a fair assessment at this rate?

Yeah, I think so.

I think that's why he's at the NAACP gathering this weekend and why he has to come back to Detroit several times.

You know, 80% of things are just being there.

80% of life is just being there and just being there.

It didn't even matter what he said.

It didn't even matter that in the transcript there were eight things in there that were factually inaccurate that were corrected by the White House itself.

It doesn't necessarily matter.

What mattered is that he was there and he shared what he has done for the black community during his tenure and what he did as vice president.

And he reminds people what he has done and what he will continue to do.

And that's what they want to hear.

That's not what they got in 2016.

So the black vote didn't show up for Hillary Clinton, but that's what he did do in 2020 and that's why it showed up for him in 2020.

He's just got to keep doing that.

He should be fine.

All right.

No fool.

Car insurance.

The speaker of the House and the governor have been singled out as the roadblock to reform.

Yes.

So this is something that passed the Senate a long time ago now, I believe it was late last year when it passed the Senate.

It's been sitting in the House this whole time in committee.

The no fault, the supporters of no fault reform have been pushing for different meetings for committee hearings on this.

This legislation is still hasn't happened and they're getting more and more frustrated.

Let's there's an anniversary coming up.

It was last July that the Supreme Court said you got it wrong.

So why aren't they moving it?

I'm not sure.

I mean, and notably, when the Senate passed it, they did so over the objections of Whitmer's insurance director who said that this legislation would raise insurance costs.

And Senate Democrats, with the report, with the support of some Republicans, notably basically said, you know, we're moving forward with it.

We think that this is the fix to the fix that is needed.

I mean, whether you like it or not, this Democratically controlled legislature has proven that it can take on sort of big transformational policies, 40 years of pent up priorities.

We heard that so often.

And now we're starting to see the list of things that will be left on the table starting to take shape.

And it's looking like auto insurance is one of those.

For the people that have not been following this, this is critical for the people that have been catastrophically injured because their benefits have been cut tremendously and they want those back.

Well, they want the reimbursement rates for the providers to increase so that there will be more providers providing a lot more care and providing better care.

But it's like anything else, if you increase the service and improve the service and increase the price, that means the price for insurance goes up.

And that's exactly what the Speaker of the House, Joe Torre, doesn't want to hear.

He's got a constituency in Detroit who still pays a ridiculous amount of money for insurance, $3500 a year for for folks, 3500 a year to to to do auto insurance.

And so he's he's of the approach.

Hey, if we're going to fix auto insurance, well, we're going to have to flatten rates for the folks in Detroit.

We're going to have to take premiums and we've got to squash them down.

Well, when you do that, then you spread the cost of insurance out into the suburbs.

And now the folks in Oakland County or Macomb County or suburban Wayne County, all of a sudden their prices go up.

And the Democrats don't need that because that's where they're competitive, vulnerable House incumbents are.

So they can't be on the hook for voting for something that could increase auto rates when the governor use that as a huge campaign.

I got you during the reelect when she said, hey, I decreased your auto insurance rate.

I gave you that check.

You remember that check?

She doesn't want to have to go back on that.

It becomes a big political mess.

That's why it's getting kicked into the next session.

For Senator Brenda Carter on a Pontiac workgroup.

And it looked the soundings I was getting was that they were making progress.

Did they take it away from her?

So that's the thing.

It seems like if you talk to depending on who you talk to, that's the question differs.

If you talk to the folks that are advocating for the survivors, that are looking for some changes to the no fault line, they're saying that they've had productive conversations with Representative Carter and that they had hopes and they're saying that from their understanding of it, at least, the speaker is taking more of a personal interest in it and is now kind of guiding the way for that.

If you talk to the speaker's folks, they're saying that that's a mischaracterization of what's happening and that he's still trusting his committee chairs to go forward.

It's kind of reminiscent of what you heard from the past when Republicans when Jason Wentworth was speaker of the House and you when the no fall folks were also frustrated that those hadn't received a hearing yet.

But you heard from his his messaging team that he has full trust in his committee chairs and it's up to them as well.

So it's kind of a matter of, okay, well, who really has the football at the moment?

So Adam Hollier wanted to be a congressperson and apparently he aint going to do it.

Well it doesnt look very good.

The Wayne County clerk's office came back and said that he did not gather the 1000 signatures needed to make the ballot, that his campaign was a victim of what happened in the gubernatorial race in 2022, where there was widespread fraud among the circulators who were paid to collect these signatures.

He has fallen victim to a situation that many that some other congressional candidates could have in their future.

That is, they just didn't have the signatures because they didn't fly spec them after they collected them, which seems almost inexcusable after what happened two years ago.

Let's add incredible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, let's look at this district, right?

Like in 2022, you had a very crowded field.

The black vote split for the first time in nearly 70 years.

Detroit ends up with no black representative in Washington, DC.

Now, this year you have Democrats, very prominent Democrats, including Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, Joe Tate coming out to endorse in a Democratic primary to unseat an incumbent.

And Adam Hollier doesn't get enough signatures because, as he says, that he put his trust in someone who, you know, basically.

Yeah, that's an unforced error.

It's a thousand signatures, unlike the gubernatorial race, where you have to collect a lot a lot more.

All right.

Let's see what happens here.

Okay.

Let's call in our guest now, Mr. Kunse.

Mr. Kunse welcome back to Off the Record.

Nice to see you on this holiday weekend, let's cut right to the chase.

Whether the Republicans win or not, back control of the House, do you think it's time for new leadership in the House Republican caucus?

You know what?

I'm focused on majority.

I think we need to get that first.

I first and I and I like our chances.

We're running down hill the wins that are back on this one.

There's there's a lot of Democrats that ran as moderates and their voting records don't show it.

So I think before we get into the November 7th election, need to worry about the November 5th election.

I appreciate that answer.

But let me try again, please.

Do you mind?

You'd be surprised if you didn't.

Okay.

Thank you.

There's been chatter on the street that you are interested in the leadership post.

I, I have heard that.

And again, my focus is on majority.

I understand when wouldn't go beyond the fact that you've heard it.

When you've heard it, you said, guys, knock it off.

We're living in the capital of rumors.

You know, there's all you could hear, anything you want to hear.

So I don't listen to that.

I don't listen to to what people say.

I heard this and I heard that my focus are going to be the 59 or 60 people in that room.

Okay.

So before I shut up, see, for me, I do not want to be speaker of the House.

You know, I'm willing to serve wherever my caucus wants me.

So that's a possible.

Yes, anything's possible.

Yes.

Well, let's try it.

Let me try this.

How do you believe Matt Hall has done as the leader of the House caucus?

You know, he's in a tough spot.

He really is.

He's in it.

He's in a room full of class presidents.

He's trying to herd cats.

It's difficult being in the minority.

It's all I've known.

There has been some tough times.

I don't think it's fair to look back.

You know, Fabricio, we couldn't look back and say, oh, you should have done this back in February.

Well, we didn't know that and we didn't know all that information.

So I think he's doing a solid job.

Perfect.

No, I think he's doing a solid job.

Certainly certainly acceptable.

You know, there's no problems.

There's no glaring error.

Oh, my gosh, Matt, this is a huge failure.

Okay.

Well, when I think about the Republican strategy, especially this past year or the past, there really is the first half of this year when there was a split 5050 split in the House, What do you feel like Republicans could have done better to ensure that some of their priorities were being listened to, that Speaker Tate was taking up some of these votes that Republicans were searching for?

Sure.

You know, and I have a lot of respect for Speaker Tate.

Joe has always been honest with me.

I think he's a he's a we disagree politically just about everywhere.

I think communication is a key.

You know, this if we entrench and we say, I'm going to go after Clara because she wears blue and I'm going to wear red, that's a failure.

So you can't communicate enough.

And sometimes we're going to agree to disagree.

But there's there are opportunities.

Let's talk about ethics reforms that that are clearly bipartisan.

I'll get you 100 votes if you can put it on the board.

So there are things that we could do that are bipartisan.

And I don't understand why we didn't.

So certainly Speaker Tate doesn't come and say, jeez, Tom, what do you think we should do?

Speaking of ethics, you're the minority vice chair of the House Ethics and Oversight Committee.

I don't think a single bill has been reported out of that committee.

The batting average is zero.

Do you see that as a failure?

Oh, it absolutely is a failure.

It's frustrating and I don't understand it.

You know, we introduced bills in March of 23 and I have a good relationship.

I like to think they have a good relationship with Chair Burns.

She's a good person.

If you don't like her bills, that's fine.

Let's get them out.

Let's talk about them.

We can make them better.

I've never been the smartest person in the room, so if these bills aren't good, let's make them better.

We haven't even got a hearing on them.

We haven't even talked about them.

So they did bring a couple of FOIA bills over from the Senate.

Forgive me, it was.

Senator McBroom and Senator Moss, thank you.

We heard testimony on them.

We have not voted on them.

Not a single bill has come out of the Ethics and Oversight Committee, and that's absolutely a failure.

Well, the one thing that could come out is any type of changes to the financial disclosure law that you all had to adhere to back in April and then candidates just a few weeks ago, how do you feel like that rollout has gone and what kind of improvements could be made to that?

You know, it was a it was a glitchy website.

And we come back to our governmental efficiency.

You know, you knew in November, you knew secretary of state in November that this is going to be required.

That's when the ballot passed and you had until April 15th to roll it out.

And it came out in like late March.

You know, that that's disappointing.

We need I think it maybe satisfies the letter of the law, but not the intent.

So it doesn't matter if I made $1,001 or a trillion dollars, you just have to check the box.

Yes, I received a paycheck from X, Y, Z, so I don't think the financial disclosure goes far enough.

Do you think there needs to be full disclosure, who the donors are and how much money it is?

Yes.

And you don't think that's never going to happen?

No.

Well, why don't you take on the Democrats?

You're going to run ads against them.

There we go.

So, again, we submitted.

There you.

Go.

Well, no, thanks.

Thanks for bringing me that point.

Back up for me.

We submitted those bills in 2023 and they go to committee to die.

Well, what about the fact when you guys were in control, you never did anything?

Which is fair.

I don't know why.

I don't know why they did it out of the Senate.

They passed the House again with more than 100 votes and they go to the Senate.

For some reason, the Senate majority leader didn't like them.

I don't I can't answer that.

But there's no reason they can't pass.

Now, let's do something.

This is, you know, the perfect time to plant a tree.

It was 20 years ago.

Well, we didn't do it then.

The next best time to plant a tree is today.

So I don't know why they didn't move on to the Senate last session.

I don't know why they're not moving in the House this session.

I took a look at your report.

Under proposal one.

I don't believe you disclose the amount of income that you earned or the value of your investments.

Some lawmakers did voluntarily disclose that.

Like when you saying that, like the 401, for instance.

Correct?

Yeah.

Why don't you feel like you probably.

Don't know what they are?

I mean, I'm sure we can find them, but I just didn't Yeah, didn't look into them.

So.

So when you say you want financial transparency to go farther, what does that look like to you?

So I think Tim's point record every dollar and this is when you know, if transparency is going to kill the deal, then let it die.

If you're embarrassed to say, this person gave me money, then don't take the money.

Okay?

It's that simple.

I think we're conflating two issues here, though.

We're we're talking about personal financial disclosure, which is how much money you representative Kunse makes.

And then we're talking about how much money that you as a candidate makes and that you're getting you're reporting every dollar that you receive, right.

Or your seat or your leadership or the the when they call the corporate account the C4s.

Yeah.

What about those those 527, those C4s, should that be reported as well?

Absolutely Yes.

I think every dollar and pick a day, you know so if you want to say this person Michigan State, I'm making this up.

Michigan State did not give me any money.

But let's say that they did.

I think we need to tell them.

All right.

Starting January 1st of 2025, we're going to report every dollar starting in this day going forward.

So if you don't want to if you don't want to be recognize that you gave me money, then don't do it.

But yes, I think every dollar that that a public official or candidate receives should be recorded.

Are you prepared to vote for the no fault bill if it gets up?

You know, I'd like to see it because you're still getting I like the concept of it, but it's still in committee, so we're still getting substitutes to it.

It's still change.

I'm not out.

Is it in diffs or what committee is it in?

I'm not on the committee.

That's it.

But the point is, you think these people need to have their benefits restored?

Yes.

And that was I thought that was a Supreme Court ruling.

Well, they don't order the legislature to do anything.

Well, true, but I especially the people, you know, that those people in the middle that were injured and they had the coverage from before, I don't understand how that got to I mean, you can't go backwards in time and say, I'm going to change the deal.

So do you think Mr. Tate is sitting on this because he fears the pushback in Detroit he could lose votes and seats?

Yes.

You're making that charge.

Well, you made that charge.

I'm agreeing.

So just ask the questions, Representative.

And we're in Lansing and Speaker Tate wants to be Speaker Tate again next session.

And if he brings up issues, what do we have 12 or 14 session days left until the November election?

You know, they're going to they're going to try and get through the budget and send us home.

And they don't want to bring in issues that are going to cost them votes.

So Joe Tate is an intelligent man and he knows that if he brings this up, it's going to cost him votes.

What are the issues that you think Republicans need to focus on to win your House candidate?

Republicans?

What do they have to focus on to win?

You know, we have an income tax increase this year.

It went from 4.05 to 4.25.

No, it's not a lot.

But over the course of the state, it's $700 million.

Why?

I don't think anybody looks at the state budget and says, you know what, That's a good use of my money.

I think the government should have more of my money.

So when we look at wind and solar siting, this is wildly unpopular.

We look at the septic bill, wildly unpopular, acceptable.

So to Michigan does not have a state septic code.

There was a algae bloom in Lake St Clair and obviously we have a health department, but they said no, we think the state should take it over.

So I think the the basic change, the basic you know, it's not red, blue, red.

It's should the locals be in control or should the state be in control?

Well, if that's the issue, we went all day long.

Nobody nobody wants to wind and solar siting.

They're sending it to the NPC, which is an unelected board that's not subject to the Open Meetings Act and they're going to make the decisions and it's not even a decision.

The bill says they shall so go to.

You know, Collin lives in a rural area, I don't know, but to make this up count lives in a rural area and someone comes and says, we're going to put in a solar farm, wait a minute, we have zoning, We have zoning.

Well, their only option is to say yes.

Well, that if the if your only option is say yes, you don't have an option.

And the Democrats took away local control.

Does that win in Macomb and in down river?

I mean, that sounds good in northern Michigan.

What about Macomb and down river?

Yes but who who doesn't want local control?

Are you telling me that you want to send this to an unelected board in Lansing that works everywhere in the state of Michigan.

And eventually go to the courts and fight it?

They could.

They could.

So what's the beef?

Why not go to your township hall and talk to Bill and Susan and, you know, talk to the people that make the local.

Nobody knows more about your locality than the local people.

So government should be small, transparent and local.

And the wind and solar bill takes away all three of those.

How many Democrats are you close to?

Oh you know define close.

I would say I'm friends with ten of them.

Do I need to name names?

Sure.

Okay.

I'm going to be late for the labor committee, so I hope Chair Haadsma is watching today.

So he runs an honest committee.

So if I'm late, please forgive me.

Want me to send you a note?

Well, that would be helpful.

So, you know, there are and again, my my opinion of people has not changed since I've been in Lansing.

I think people are good people.

I genuinely believe that.

And there are a few people on this end that are very zealous, but there are a few people on this end that are very zealous.

And sometimes I think our passion gets the better of us.

But I truly believe the hundred people in the middle are good people.

We just look at things differently, you know, the wind and solar.

I come back to this and I'm not trying to pound on that one issue.

Their goal is not to do bad things for the state of Michigan.

Their approach to it is just different than mine.

I think it should be a local decision.

Do you believe this budget is going to get any Republican votes in the House when it does finally come out?

Oh, not as it is proposed right now.

It's going to be tough against Speaker Tate is herding cats, you know, and some of his more zealous members are threatening to vote no on the budget to get their get their either a promise or action, a no fault.

Well, that's that's a nuclear option.

You know, be careful doing that because we all serve at the pleasure of the speaker No, no.

Speaker two It's not going to help me in my race, but there are several there are ten Democrats that are in vulnerable seats.

So, you know, you're not going to get reelected unless Speaker Tate helps you get reelected.

We've won It came up in the House.

It was 100 something amendments that Republicans had had proposed.

Most of them got shut down, if not all of them got shut.

Zero.

What are the biggest things you want to see changed?

Well, you know, transparency like like in the budget.

I'm on the Transportation Committee when we had some issues five or six years ago, they said if if a department head gets more than six weeks severance.

So whatever your weekly wages, if you're getting more than that, you have to report it.

This is transparency and they're taking that out.

Why would you take that out?

Why do we again, if transparency kills the deal, to let it die?

You know, I don't like that we're going to spend $3 million on e-bike subsidies and I don't like that we're going to do this.

Let's do a road mileage survey for $5 million.

You know, when we start adding these things up here, a billion dollars here, a billion dollars there, pretty soon it's real money.

Representative, we've got to get out of here.

But quickly, how does speaker Kunse sound to you?

You know, I think majority.

I'd be happy to be in majority wherever I sit.

I'm going to be glad to be there.

Thank you, sir.

Good to see.

You.

We appreciate it.

Thank you all.

Get to that committee meeting.

Yes.

Yeah, I think I'm going to make it all right.

Good day.

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