>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": MORE THAN A YEAR AFTER THE DEADLY COVID OUTBREAK AT THE SOLDIERS' HOME IN HOLYOKE THAT KILLED MORE THAN 70 VETERANS, AND 11 MONTHS AFTER THE INVESTIGATOR BROUGHT ON BY THE GOVERNOR ISSUED HIS FINDINGS, A NEW "BOSTON GLOBE "SPOTLIGHT" REPORT PAINTS A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE ABOUT WHERE THE BUCK SHOULD BE STOPPING.

TWO OF THE JOURNALISTS BEHIND IT, REPORTER REBECCA OSTRIKER AND EDITOR PATRICIA WEN, JOIN ME.

THEN, LATER, A YEAR SINCE GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER, I'LL TALK TO PSYCHOLOGIST DR. CHARMAIN JACKMAN AND "GLOBE" COLUMNIST JENEE OSTERHELDT ABOUT THE TOLL THE PAST 12 MONTHS OF VIOLENCE, RACISM, AND A WOULD-BE RECKONING HAVE TAKEN ON PEOPLE OF COLOR.

♪♪ >>> IT WAS ONE OF THE DEADLIEST CORONAVIRUS OUTBREAKS AT ANY NURSING HOME IN THE COUNTRY, KILLING MORE THAN 76 VETERANS, ROUGHLY 30% OF ALL RESIDENTS, AT THE SOLDIERS' HOME IN HOLYOKE LAST SPRING.

AND TODAY WE'RE STILL LEARNING HOW IT WAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.

LAST MARCH THE HOME'S SUPERINTENDENT, BENNETT WALSH, WAS QUICKLY PUT ON LEAVE, AND GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER BROUGHT IN AN INDEPENDENT ATTORNEY, MARK PEARLSTEIN, TO INVESTIGATE.

IN JUNE, PEARLSTEIN RELEASED A REPORT OF HIS FINDINGS, DETAILING NUMEROUS DECISIONS FROM WALSH THAT WERE "UTTERLY BAFFLING FROM AN INFECTION-CONTROL PERSPECTIVE," INCLUDING THE CONSOLIDATION OF TWO DEMENTIA UNITS THAT INCLUDED SOME COVID-POSITIVE RESIDENTS; LITTLE TO NO DISTANCING BETWEEN SYMPTOMATIC AND ASYMPTOMATIC UNITS; A FAILURE TO QUICKLY ISOLATE SUSPECTED COVID PATIENTS; DELAYS IN TESTING; AND CONTINUED ROTATION OF HEALTH CARE STAFF THROUGHOUT THE HOME.

THE REPORT SOUGHT TO EXPLAIN HOW WALSH, A FORMER MILITARY LIEUTENANT COLONEL, ENDED UP AT THE STATE-RUN FACILITY IN THE FIRST PLACE, CITING "POLITICAL CONNECTIONS" WHO DOWNPLAYED HIS LACK OF ANY EXPERIENCE WHATSOEVER IN MANAGING A HEALTH CARE FACILITY.

AND PEARLSTEIN ALSO PLACED BLAME ON THE STATE'S DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS SERVICES, WHICH HE SAID FAILED TO EFFECTIVELY OVERSEE THE HOME.

AROUND THAT TIME, WALSH AND THE STATE'S SECRETARY OF VETERANS' SERVICES, FRANCISCO URENA, WERE BOTH FORCED OUT BY THE BAKER ADMINISTRATION.

AND IN SEPTEMBER ATTORNEY GENERAL MAURA HEALEY, WHOSE OFFICE CONDUCTED ITS OWN INVESTIGATION, FILED CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST WALSH AND DR. DAVID CLINTON, THE HOME'S FORMER MEDICAL DIRECTOR, WHO STEPPED DOWN AMID THE OUTBREAK IN MAY.

AS FOR THE MAN AT THE TOP?

GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER TOLD ME ON "BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO" LAST MAY THAT HE AND OTHER SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS DIDN'T LEARN ABOUT THE CONDITIONS AT THE HOME FROM HOLYOKE MAYOR ALEX MORSE UNTIL IT WAS TOO LATE.

>> THE FIRST I HEARD ABOUT IT, OBVIOUSLY, WAS THAT PHONE CALL ON SUNDAY NIGHT IN LATE MARCH, WHEN THE LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR, SECRETARY SUDDERS, AND I WERE ALL ON THE PHONE TOGETHER, AND ALEX MORSE REACHED OUT TO THE LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR.

THE LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR, THE SECRETARY, AND I WERE SHOCKED BY THAT CALL.

>> Braude: THE INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATOR, MARK PEARLSTEIN, DIRECTED VIRTUALLY NONE OF THE BLAME AT THE DOORSTEPS OF BAKER OR SUDDERS, AND WHEN WE INVITED HIM ON THE SHOW, HE SAID HE COULD ONLY JOIN US WITH THE GOVERNOR'S PERMISSION, WHICH WE NEVER RECEIVED.

MAYBE NOW WE KNOW WHY -- A NEW INVESTIGATION FROM "THE BOSTON GLOBE" "SPOTLIGHT" TEAM TELLS US A VERY DIFFERENT STORY THAN THAT OF GOVERNOR BAKER, SECRETARY SUDDERS, AND INVESTIGATOR PEARLSTEIN.

IT'S CALLED "FAILURE OF COMMAND," AND TWO OF THE JOURNALISTS BEHIND IT JOIN ME NOW: "GLOBE" REPORTER REBECCA OSTRIKER AND "SPOTLIGHT" EDITOR PATRICIA WEN.

>> Braude: PATRICIA, REBECCA, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: MY THREE MEECH TAKE-AWAYS ARE ONE, BAKER'S INVOLVEMENT, AND THE HIRING OF LIEUTENANT WALSH, AND SUDDERS SHIFTING BLAME TO THOSE BENEATH HER AND WHAT YOU CALL THE OMISSIONS AND FALSE ASSERTIONS IN THE REPORT BY THE INVESTIGATOR PICKED BY BAKER.

REBECCA, STARTING WITH YOU, GOVERNOR MAKER SAID THE FIRST TIME HE EVER MET WALSH WAS WHEN HE SWORE HIM IN.

IS THAT TRUE?

>> NO, THAT WAS NOT TRUE.

GOVERNOR BAKER INTERVIEWED WALSH FOR 20 TO 30 MINUTES ON APRIL 27, 2016, ACCORDING TO BENNETT WALSH'S ATTORNEY AND UNCLE.

BUT WE GOT CONFIRMATION FROM THAT FROM AN ADMINISTRATION SPOKESPERSON AFTERWARDS.

SO THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

HE INTERVIEWED HIM, AND THAT WAS PART OF THE HIRING PROCESS.

>> Braude: PATTY, WHY DID PEARLSTEIN NOT UNCOVER THIS IN HIS REPORT?

WHAT WAS HIS EXPHANGS EXPLANATION HAS TO WHY HE DIDN'T LOOK INTO WHETHER THE GOVERNOR HAD PRIOR COMMUNICATION WITH HIM?

>> WHEN ASKED ABOUT HIM, HE SEEMED TO PORTRAY HIS FOCUS AS BEING MORE LIMITED, EVEN THOUGH AS YOU HEARD, GOVERNOR BAKER HAS SAID THAT HE GAVE MARK PEARLSTEIN WIDE LATITUDE TO LOOK AT ANYTHING HE WANTED TO.

THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS WAS FOR IT TO BE AN AUTHORITATIVE REPORT THAT WOULD PREVENT FUTURE TRAGEDIES FROM HAPPENING.

IT DOES SEEM TO US AS IF HE WAS JUST SORT OF CURIOUS ABOUT SORT OF WHAT HAPPENED PRIOR TO THE MOMENT THAT COVID ENTERED THE SOLDIERS' HOME.

AND SO HE HAS ONLY JUST DESCRIBED IT AS HE STAYED WITHIN CERTAIN CONTOURS.

ALTHOUGH I DON'T KNOW WHY BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME IF YOU WERE TO TRY TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHY THIS HAPPENED, YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE HIRING.

>> Braude: REBECCA, SPEAKING OF IN CURIOUS, SOMEONE WHO SEEMED TO BE VERY CURIOUS IS SECRETARY SUDDERS, AND YET SHE SEEMS TO DOWN PLAY HER OWN LEVEL OF INVOLVEMENT AND KNOWLEDGE, AND SEEMS TO PASS THE BUCK, FOR LACK OF A BETTER EXPRESSION, TO OFFICIALS BENEATH HER, INCLUDING THE SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS.

HER INVOLVEMENT, THOUGH, WAS QUITE INTIMATE IN ALMOST ALL OF THIS, WAS IT NOT?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

IT BECAME CLEAR TO US IN OUR REPORTING THAT SECRETARY SUDDERS WAS DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN OVERSEEING BENNETT WALSH WHEN HE WAS SUPERINTENDENT.

FOR EXAMPLE, SHE RECEIVED A REPORT OF HIS ANGER PROBLEMS.

HE HAD A TEMPER.

AND SHE BROUGHT HIM INTO HER OFFICE, ALONG WITH HER VETERANS SECRETARY, AND TOLD HIM THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE GOING TO ANGER MANAGEMENT TRAINING.

AND THIS WAS EXTENSIVE.

IT WENT ON FOR MANY MONTHS, AND THAT WAS EXTENDED WHEN THERE WAS ANOTHER COMPLAINT.

THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE VETERANS SECRETARY.

AND WHAT IS PECULIAR IS THAT IN HIS REPORT, MARK PEARLSTEIN STATED THAT THAT WHOLE DECISION WAS MADE BY THE VETERANS SECRETARY, AND THE HEALTH SECRETARY, MARY SUDDERS, ALLOWED TO STAND.

SHE WAS DIRECTLY IN CONTACT WITH BENNETT WALSH FOR QUITE A LONG TIME, HANDLING WHAT WAS CLEARLY A DYSFUNCTIONAL MANAGEMENT SITUATION AT THE HOME.

>> Braude: PAT PATTY, I STATED AS A FACT BEFORE SOMETHING I WOULD LIKE YOUR CORROBORATION ON.

PEARLSTEIN, IN HIS REPORT -- HE SAID HE DID VISIT VIRTUALLY NONE OF THE BLAME ON THE DOORSTEPS OF THE GOVERNOR OR THE SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, MARY SUDDERS, AND THAT IS AN ACCURATE DISRUPTION OF YOUR REPORTING ON THAT REPORT, CORRECT?

>> YES.

I READ THROUGH THE REPORT A COUPLE OF TIMES.

THE OTHERS ON THE TEAM HAVE.

I DO SEE THAT AS AN ACCURATE ASSERTION.

HE, ACCORDING TO THE FOOTNOTES, HE DID INTERVIEW GOVERNOR BAKER.

HE INTERVIEWED MARY LOU SUDDERS TWICE.

AND SOMEHOW, AS YOU SAY, THE BLAME FALLS PRIMARILY ON THE VETERANS SECRETARY URENA AND DOWNWARD.

>> Braude: PATTY, I WANT TO STAY WITH YOU FOR A SECOND, ON PEOPLE THAT PEARLSTEIN CHOSE NOT TO INTERVIEW, WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE FOR ME.

YOU DETAILED ON A PARTICULARLY PERILOUS DAY, WHICH I THINK WAS MARCH 27th, WALSH REALIZED HE WAS DROWNING OUT THERE.

HE SENDS AN E-MAIL TO THE SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS, SAYING I THINK I NEED NATIONAL GUARDS PEOPLE TO HELP OUT HERE.

ACCORDING TO YOUR REPORTING, SIX MINUTES LATER -- SIX MINUTES LATER -- URENA SENDS AN E-MAIL TO TWO TOP AIDES, TO MARY LOU SUDDERS, FOR HELP, AND THEY SEEM TO HAVE A COMPLETE LACK OF URGENCY IN TERMS OF THEIR RESPONSE, AND YET PEARLSTEIN CHOSE NOT TO INTERVIEW EITHER OF THE SUDDERS' ASSISTANTS.

DID HE EXPLAIN WHY HE CHOSE TO STOP THE DISCUSSION WITH THE SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS AND NOT THE PEOPLE WHO HE REACHED OUT TO FOR HELP?

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHY.

THESE QUESTIONS WERE DEFINITELY PRESENTED TO HIM.

I DON'T KNOW WHY.

AGAIN, IS IT INCURIOUS?

WHAT IS THE REASON FOR IT?

OF COURSE, WE KNOW HE IS A HIGHLY REGARDED ATTORNEY, AND I DON'T KNOW WHY.

THESE ARE JUST SIMPLY FACTS.

AND I THINK THAT WHAT IS LEFT IS THE IMPRESSION THAT FRANCISCO URENA, YOU JUST MENTIONED, THE VETERANS SECRETARY, IS AS IF HE MAY HAVE DROPPED THE BALL.

IT SORT OF ENDS THERE.

SO THE PERCEPTION IS LEFT THAT WAY.

WHEN IT WAS ACTUALLY FAR DIFFERENT.

>> Braude: REBECCA, DIDN'T -- SPEAKING OF LEAVING THE IMPRESSION THAT URENA WAS THE RUN THE ONE WHO REPEATEDLY DROPPED THE BALL, DID YOU REPORT IN LEGISLATIVE TESTIMONY OR SOMETHING, THAT HE ESSENTIALLY DOUBLED DOWN ON THAT CONCLUSION?

AM I RIGHT ABOUT THAT?

>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WHEN HE WAS CALLED IN FRONT OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE OF THE LEGISLATURE, WHICH HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING THE COVID CRISIS, AND HE WAS ASKED ABOUT THIS BY SOME OF THE LEGISLATORS ON THE COMMITTEE, HE WENT BEYOND WHAT HE SAID IN HIS REPORT AND SAID THAT FRANCISCO URENA HIMSELF HAD TURNED DOWN THE NATIONAL GUARD REQUEST, THAT IT STOPPED WITH HIM.

THAT IS FLAT WRONG, ACCORDING TO THE SECRETARY.

HE NOT ONLY DID NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO THAT, HE DIDN'T TURN IT DOWN HIMSELF.

AND HE WOULDN'T HAVE TOLD PEARLSTEIN THAT HE DID.

AND THAT -- FROM OUR OWN REPORTING, THAT APPEARS TO BE TRUE.

SO IT IS UNCLEAR TO ME WHY PEARLSTEIN WOULD SAY SUCH A THING.

IT IS ONE OF THE ERRORS -- THERE ARE A SERIOUS OF ERRORS AND OMISSIONS, AND WE WERE LEFT THINKING, WHY DIDN'T YOU CHOOSE TO INVESTIGATE THESE THINGS?

WHY DIDN'T YOU LOOK INTO THE HIRING?

WHY DIDN'T YOU LOOK INTO WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NATIONAL GUARD?

AND WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW.

>> Braude: PEOPLE ARE WONDERING -- PATTY, IF I CAN INTERRUPT -- WATCHING THIS, WHY DO TWO "GLOBE" REPORTERS HAVE SO FEW ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS.

YOU SOUGHT PEOPLE LIKE THE MAYOR AND SUDDERS, BUT THEY DID NOT RESPOND.

THEY AGREED TO A LIMITED NUMBER OF QUESTIONS YOU SENT THEM.

IS THAT CORRECT, PATTY?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK WHAT WE ENCOUNTERED IN OUR EFFORT TO GET FULL STORIES FROM THE GOVERNOR AND FROM MARY LOU SUDDERS ARE A REFUSAL FOR A SIT-DOWN INTERVIEW, AND THEY WOULD ANSWER -- WE WOULD GIVE THEM A NUMBER OF QUESTIONS.

WE LAID OUT EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING TO BE SAID IN THE STORY, ANYTHING NEGATIVE, AND WE THEY WOULD SORT OF CHERRY PICK THE THINGS THEY CHOSE TO ANSWER AND DEFLECT OTHERS.

ONE THING I WILL POINT OUT, THEY ALSO DID NOT RESPOND TO, YOU KNOW, SOME 10 PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST.

ONE SPECIFIC REQUEST I THINK IS INTERESTING, WHICH I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE, AND I DON'T KNOW WHY IT IS NOT PUBLIC, BUT THE GOVERNOR KEEPS TALKING ABOUT I GAVE MARK PEARLSTEIN WIDE LATITUDE TO LOOK INTO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING.

WE HAVE ASKED FOR WHAT IS TYPICALLY CALLED A LETTER OF ENGAGEMENT BETWEEN MARK PEARLSTEIN AND GOVERNOR BAKER.

GOVERNOR BAKER CHOSE HIM TO ENGAGE IN THIS INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION.

WHAT ARE THE TERMS OF THIS?

SOMEHOW MARK DESCRIBES THE CONTOURS OF HIS INVESTIGATION AS MORE LIMITED THAN YOU WOULD THINK BASED ON WHAT BAKER SAYS.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THAT LETTER.

AND THAT HAS NOT BEEN SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN PRODUCED TO US.

>> Braude: THIS 100% LATITUDE THING, FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T BEEN FOLLOWING THIS, SINCE YOUR REPORT WENT ON LINE, THE GOVERNOR HAS BEEN ASKED ONE OR TWO TIMES BY REPORTERS WHAT HIS RESPONSE IS, AND HE SAYS THINGS, LIKE, MARK PEARLSTEIN HAD 100% LATITUDE, AND HE SAID THAT ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS, TO GO WHEREVER HE THOUGHT THAT REPORT WAS GOING TO TAKE HIM.

BUT YOUR CONCLUSION, PEARLSTEIN, IF HE WAS GIVEN 100%, CHOSE TO USE ONLY 50% OR 60%, BUT, AGAIN, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CONTRACT WAS.

I ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF SECONDS LEFT, IS THERE A MAJOR TAKE-AWAY, REBECCA, QUICKLY, IF YOU CAN, THAT I DIDN'T TOUCH UPON THAT YOU HOPE READERS GO HOME WITH?

>> YOU HIT UPON THE MAIN ONES.

HE WAS A POLITICALLY-PROTECTED HIRE.

HE WAS PROTECTED FROM REPERCUSSIONS.

AND THEN IN THE WAKE OF THE CRISIS, THEY USED THE PEARLSTEIN REPORT, WHO'S FINDINGS SHIELDED THEM FROM BLAME.

>> Braude: PATTY, ANYTHING YOU WANT TO ADD?

>> I THINK ONE TAKE-AWAY FROM THIS IS THE ROLE OF PATRONAGE HIRES.

I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD REALIZE WHEN YOU HIRE UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE DUE TO POLITICAL CONNECTIONS, PARTICULARLY FOR A JOB RUNNING A NURSING HOME FOR VETERANS THAT ARE VERY VULNERABLE, IT IS A MEDICAL FACILITY, THAT YOU ARE LEAVING THEM VERY VULNERABLE TO THE KINDS OF TRAGIC CONSEQUENCES WE SAW.

>> Braude: PATRICIA WEN AND REBECCA OSTRIKER, GREAT REPORTING AND CONTRIBUTION TO THE DEBATE.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH ME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: NEXT UP, A YEAR AGO TODAY A POLICE OFFICER KILLED GEORGE FLOYD IN BROAD DAYLIGHT, A MURDER THAT WAS CAUGHT ON TAPE AND WAS LATER WATCHED BY MILLIONS AROUND THE WORLD MANY TIMES.

HIS DEATH FUELED A SUMMER OF PROTESTS, MAKING BLACK LIVES MATTER MAYBE THE BIGGEST MOVEMENT IN U.S. HISTORY, AND PROMPTING A NATIONWIDE RECKONING ON SYSTEMIC RACISM AND POLICE VIOLENCE.

WE'VE SEEN EFFORTS AT POLICE REFORM IN SOME STATES, INCLUDING THIS ONE, BUT LITTLE PROGRESS ON THAT FRONT IN CONGRESS.

THEN, LAST MONTH, THE MAN WHO KILLED FLOYD, EX-MINNEAPOLIS POLICE OFFICER DEREK CHAUVIN, WAS FOUND GUILTY ON TWO COUNTS OF MURDER AND ANOTHER COUNT OF MANSLAUGHTER.

BUT GEORGE FLOYD WAS FAR FROM THE FIRST, OR THE LAST, AND RECKONING SEEMS TO BE IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER AS BLACK AND BROWN AMERICANS SUFFER THE MOST PAIN FROM THE CORONAVIRUS, THE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE, AND SO MUCH MORE.

ALL OF THIS, ESPECIALLY VIOLENCE BY POLICE, DIRECTED AT THOSE THEY'RE CHARGED WITH PROTECTING, HAS TAKEN A MAJOR TOLL, AS SEVERAL OF YOU RECENTLY SHARED WITH GBH NEWS.

>> EVEN BEFORE GEORGE FLOYD, I WOULD ALWAYS TELL ME SON -- MY SON IS 13, AND HE'S THE SAME HEIGHT AS ME, SO HE LOOKS LIKE A GROWN MAN.

SO I'VE BEEN TELLING HIM SINCE THE MARTIN SITUATION IN FLORIDA, "DON'T WEAR YOUR HOOD, KEEP YOUR HANDS OUT OF YOUR POCKET IF THE POLICE APPROACH YOU."

I'VE BEEN TRAINING HIM HIS ENTIRE LIFE.

I UNDERSTAND THE POLICE HAVE TO DO THEIR JOB, BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND -- I FEEL LIKE I'VE ALWAYS HAD TO TRAIN MY KIDS TO BE BETTER, AND IT FEELS UNCOMFORTABLE.

>> MY CONCERN IS, I DON'T WANT TO GET KILLED OVER SOMETHING THAT I DON'T NEED TO DIE OVER.

YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

DEATH OVER RACIAL PROFILING.

I DON'T WANT TO GET KILLED.

>> GEORGE FLOYD WAS THE MIDDLE OF THE PERIOD OF KILLINGS, AND CERTAINLY ON THE EARLY END OF A STRING OF KILLINGS, AND IT'S LEFT ME HYPER-VIGILANT BECAUSE WE'VE NOT BROKEN ANY CYCLES BY HAVING GREATER RECOGNITION OF THE LOSS OF LIFE, THE UNWARRANTED LOSS OF LIFE.

THERE'S A NATIONAL ANXIETY ABOUT WHEN THE NEXT ONE IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> IT'S REALLY HARD FOR PEOPLE TO ACT NORMAL AGAINST POLICE OFFICERS, ESPECIALLY THE GUYS.

THEY LOOK AT THEM A LOT DIFFERENT.

>> TO LIVE BLACK IS TO LIVE IN FEAR IN THIS COMMUNITY.

WE LIVE IN FEAR DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

>> Braude: I'M JOINED NOW BY DR. CHARMAIN JACKMAN, A PSYCHOLOGIST AND THE FOUNDER AND C.E.O.

OF INNOPSYCH, INC., AN ORGANIZATION THAT WORKS TO CONNECT PEOPLE OF COLOR WITH THERAPISTS OF COLOR; AND "BOSTON GLOBE" COLUMNIST JENEE OSTERHELDT, WHOSE BRILLIANT PIECE, "I, TOO, RAGE, AMERICA," APPEARED IN SUNDAY'S PAPER.

>> Braude: DOCTOR AND JENEE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: JENEE,FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T READ YOUR INCREDIBLE PIECE, WHAT HAS THE YEAR BEEN LIKE FOR YOU?

>> I MEAN, IT'S BEEN -- FOR SO MANY OF US, I THINK A LOT OF US,Ñi WE'RE JUST EXHAUSTEDÑi AND WEARY AND HEARTBROKEN.

I THINK IT IS LIKE YOUR WRESTLING TO KEEP THE FAITH, AND IT'S JUST A DIFFERENT TYPEÑi OF TIRED.

AND A DIFFERENT TYPE OF RIGHTEOUS RAGE.

IT'S JUST BEEN HARD.

IT IS HARD TO LIVE IT IN REALTIME AND THEN HAVE TO PROCESS IT AND WRITE IT IN REALTIME.

IT TAKES A LOT OUT OF YOU.

>> Braude: DOCTOR, YOU SEE PATIENTS WHO ARE BOTH ADOLESCENTS AND ADULTS, AND DO THE EXPERIENCES THEY DESCRIBE TO YOU MIRROR WHAT JENEE WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT?

>> Doctor: ABSOLUTELY.

THERE IS THE HEAVINESS THAT PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING, THE ANGER, FROM THE YOUTH IN PARTICULAR, AND NUMBNESS.

THERE IS THIS WHOLE RANGE OF EMOTIONS THAT PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING.

THERE IS SOME HOPE THERE, BUT THERE IS A LOT OF ANGER AND FRUSTRATION AND CHANGE -- PEOPLE JUST WANT CHANGE.

>> Braude: JENEE, THERE ARE SO MANY LINES FROM YOUR PIECE THAT HAVE STUCK WITH ME, BUT THE ONE THAT I'VE READ OVER AND EVERY AGAIN IS THIS: "IT FEELS AS THOUGH AMERICA HAS LEARNED TO VALUE US IN OUR DEATHS, INSTEAD OF DOING THE LIBERATION WORK THAT WOULD LEAD TO OUR LONG LIVES.

THERE WERE MANY BEFORE HIM, BUT WE WOULD LIKE TO THINK FLOYD'S LYNCHING CHANGED THE WORLD.

IN SOME WAYS IT DID, BUT THE BODIES KEEP COMING."

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT IS EASIER FOR US TO FOCUS ON GEORGE FLOYD BECAUSE SOME ACCOUNTABILITY WAS EXACTED THERE, AND TO LOOK AT ALL OF THE OTHER HORRORS IS TOO MESSY AND REQUIRES TOO MUCH EXERTION OF ENERGY ON THE PART OF SO MANY OF US TO DO IT.

DOES THAT RING TRUE WITH YOU?

OR DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?

>> I THINK PEOPLE -- I THINK IT IS EASIER TO CONSIDER GEORGE FLOYD AN ISLOLATED EVENT, AND TO LOOK AT THE VERDICT AND SAY, OH, WE WON RACISM.

I GOT MY PARTICIPATION PRIZE.

I WENT TO A PROTEST, I READ MY WAY OUT OF RACISM, AND NOW WE'VE WON, BECAUSE THAT IS EASY.

JUST LIKE IT WAS ALL TOO EASY FOR THIS TO BE OUR REALITY FOR GENERATIONS, LITERALLY, HUNDREDS OF NATIONS.

I READ "THE STRIVING OF THE NEGRO PEOPLE," AND HE WROTE THAT 100 YEARS AGO.

I QUOTED IT IN MY PIECE, AND IT IS STILL RELEVANT TODAY.

SO RATHER THAN ACKNOWLEDGE THESE ATROCITIES ARE ONGOING, HAPPENED ON THE DAY OF THE VERDICT AND HAVE HAPPENED EVERY WEEK SINCE, IT IS EASIER TO SAY, WE DID IT, WE CAN BREATHE NOW, IT'S DONE, VERSUS TO PEEL BACK THE VEIL AND THE CURTAIN AND TO ACTUALLY KNOW THAT THE FRAMEWORK OF THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON THESE TYPES OF ACTS.

IT IS GOING TO TAKE A LOT OF REAL WORK AND POWER SACRIFICING AND PRIVILEGE SACRIFICING TO ACTUALLY REIMAGINE WHAT WE NEED TO BE.

>> Braude: HAVE YOU SEEN A SERIOUS INDICATION, JENEE, IN THIS YEAR THAT WHITE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE WILLING TO MAKE THAT SACRIFICE AND THAT GIVING UP OF POWER?

>> I THINK THERE ARE SOME WHITE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GIVE UP THAT POWER AND WANT TO REALLY BE ALLIES, BUT I THINK THERE ARE A LOT MORE WHITE PEOPLE THAT WANT A PARTICIPATION PRIZE AND WANT TO MOVE ON.

YOU CAN -- THE RESPONSE TO MY COLUMN, MY ESSAY, WAS SO -- INSTEAD OF DEALING WITH THE REALITY OF WHAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH, SO MANY WHITE PEOPLE ARE IN MY IN BOX, LIKE, I'M NOT A RACIST, AND AMERICA IS NOT RACIST.

IT IS IF YOU CAN'T READ THAT PIECE AND UNDERSTAND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL AND I'M TALKING ABOUT THE COUNTRY AS AN INSTITUTION AND WHITENESS AS A POWER STRUCTURE, NOT INDIVIDUAL WHITE PEOPLE, THIS IS WHY WE HAVE SO MANY ISSUES.

PEOPLE OPERATE OUT OF EGO AND OUT OF POWER AND OUT OF OPTICS INSTEAD OF OUT OF THE REAL REALITY OF THE OPPRESSIVE SYSTEM WE NAVIGATE EVERY DAY.

>> Braude: DOCTOR, I WANT TO RETURN TO THE LINE THAT JENEE WROTE, "THE BODIES KEEP COMING," AND SO DO THE VIDEOS.

WE CAN GO DOWN, McDONALD, ALTON STERLING -- IT IS ENDLESS.

IT IS LIKE THIS GROTESQUE VOYERISM.

WE DIDN'T SEE GEORGE FLOYD DIE ONE TIME.

WE SAW HIM BEING MURDERED MAYBE THOUSANDS OF TIMES.

WHAT IS THE ACCUMULATIVE IMPACT OF THAT ON BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, DOCTOR?

>> Doctor: YEAH, SO THERE ARE TWO THINGS I WANT TO POINT AROUND THE VIDEO PIECES.

THE FIRST ONE IS THAT THE VIDEO -- I THINK GEORGE FLOYD IS UNIQUE IN THAT WE SAW HIS LIFE BE DRAINED FROM HIM IN THAT VIDEO.

BUT WHERE WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN JUSTICE IS BECAUSE OUR WORD IS NOT VALUED OR TAKEN AS TRUTH.

SO WE OFTEN NEED SOME CORROBORATION IN ORDER TO GET THAT JUSTICE.

I THINK THAT IS THE DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD, WITH THE CONVICTION OF DEREK CHAUVIN, THAT THIS ONLY HAPPENED BECAUSE THE VIDEO GOT DOCUMENTED, AND DOCUMENTED THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF HIS MURDER.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN JUSTICE FOR OTHER BLACK AND BROWN BODIES THAT EXPERIENCED SIMILAR THINGS.

BACK TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT THE COLLECTIVE TRAUMA, WHAT YOU EXPERIENCE AND WHAT YOU SEE IS KIND OF THE UP ROW NOT JUST FOR GEORGE FLOYD -- GEORGE FLOYD WAS NOT THE FIRST PROTEST WE HAD AROUND THE BLACK BODIES.

BUT WE WITNESSED IN THAT -- WHEN I HEARD IT, I IMMEDIATELY ENVISIONED MY 9-YEAR-OLD SON, WHO WAS NINE AT THE TIME, MY BLACK HUSBAND, I HEARD MY CLIENTS TELL ME HOW SCARED THEY ARE WHEN THEIR BOY STARTS TO GROW A BEARD AT 13 OR 14, RIGHT?

THAT IS A TRAUMA WE HAVE EXPERIENCED FOR GENERATIONS.

AND THAT IS THE TRAUMA THAT WE'VE LIVED WITH.

AND SO THAT IMPACT LEADS TO THE DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY, AND SOMETIMES LOSS OF HOPE.

IT REALLY, REALLY HAS IMPACTED OUR COMMUNITY.

>> Braude: JENEE, I USED THE TERM "RECKONING" BEFORE, AND I APOLOGIZED.

I MEANT TO SAY WOULD-BE RECKONING BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME THIS RACIAL RECKONING MANTRA ALMOST GLIBLY COMES OFF PEOPLE'S TONGUES WHEN TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.

IS THIS MOMENT ABOUT TO SLIP BY AND WE JUST MOVE ON TO THE NEXT GEORGE FLOYD?

>> WE'VE ALREADY HAD SO MANY MORE GEORGE FLOYDS SINCE GEORGE FLOYD, AND WE DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT THE BRIEBREONNA TAYLORS AND SO MANY WHO ARE IN THEIR OWN EPIDEMIC.

IT IS HARD -- THE RACIAL RECKONING -- AND I THINK WE AS A COLLECTIVE COMMUNITY, AS A GLOBAL SOCIETY, WE GET THESE WORDS AND WE JUST LATCH ON TO THEM AND THEY FEEL GOOD TO US.

I REMEMBER WHEN I FIRST STARTED IN JOURNALISM, RACIAL TENSION WAS A PHRASE THAT I WAS TAUGHT TO USE.

IT IS NOT A GOOD PHRASE.

AND THE RECKONING, I THINK PEOPLE HAVE TO THINK REALLY WHAT THAT MEANS.

TO RECKON WITH SOMETHING IS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT, TO ACCOUNT FOR IT.

AND I DON'T KNOW THAT WE HAVE SHOWN -- I MEAN, THAT IS ONE CASE AND ONE VERDICT.

AND, UNFORTUNATELY, WE'VE HAD MANY VIDEOS BEFORE AND STILL DIDN'T GET THE VERDICT.

SO THAT WAS, LIKE, A RARE CASE OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

SO WITH ONE RARE GASP OF ACCOUNTING FOR, CAN WE REALLY CALL THAT A COLLECTIVE RECKONING?

BECAUSE IT IS NOT.

WE'RE STILL ARGUING ABOUT BASIC THINGS, LIKE DEFUNDING THE POLICE, WHICH DOESN'T MEAN TAKE ALL OF THEIR MONEY.

IT MEANS APPROPRIATING MONEY TO BETTER HELP AND BETTER SOURCE COMMUNITIES.

WE DO IT IN THE SUBURBS ALL OF THE TIME.

ALL OF THE SUBURBAN POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE ALREADY DEFUNDED.

THEY JUST DON'T USE THAT LANGUAGE.

I DON'T THINK WE'RE REALLY IN A REAL RECKONING.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT THE MOMENT WILL PASS US BY, BUT I'M SAYING I THINK WE'RE CELEBRATING PREMATURELY.

>> Braude: ° I ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT, BUT FOR PATIENTS WHO LIVED THROUGH DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY -- WE KNOW THE NUMBERS HAVE EXPLODED AS A RESULT OF EVERYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED THIS YEAR, DO THEY BELIEVE THERE WILL BE AN ACCOUNTABILITY, A RECKONING, AT THE END OF THE DAY, OR HAVE THEY LOST HOPE?

>> Doctor: WELL, YOU KNOW, IT VARIES, RIGHT?

IT DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU ARE AT IN THAT PROCESS.

OFTENTIMES HOPELESSNESS IS SIG KERSIGNATURE OF DEPRESSION.

AND I THINK MIXED.

IT IS REALLY MIXED.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE HOLDING ON TO HOPE.

I THINK BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES HAVE THIS ABILITY TO COMPARTMENTALIZE OTHERWISE WE WOULD NOT HAVE SURVIVED ALL WE HAVE SURVIVED.

WE CAN PUT THINGS IN A BOX.

SO THAT IS SOME OF THE WAYS WE HAVE SURVIVED.

I AM REALLY TRYING TO TRANSFORM AND THINK ABOUT A MESSAGE OF HOW WE THRIVE, HOW WE ACTUALLY DEAL WITH THE TRAUMA.

HOW WE DEAL WITH THE DEPRESSION.

HOW WE ACCESSORY SOURCES THAT WE HAVE SAID ARE NOT FOR US, THAT WE CAN USE THOSE TO THRIVE AND TO MOVE FURTHER, BECAUSE WE DESERVE BETTER.

>> Braude: YOU DO DESERVE BETTER.

DR. JACKMAN, JENEE OSTERHELDT, THANK YOU.

AND PLEASE READ HER PIECE IN "THE BOSTON GLOBE."

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

I'LL BE JOINED BY HISTORIAN, AUTHOR, AND THE DIRECTOR OF BOSTON UNIVERSITY'S CENTER FOR ANTI-RACIST RESEARCH, DR. IBRAM X. KENDI, ON WHETHER THERE'S A FUTURE FOR EQUITY IN AMERICA AND THE WORK HE SAYS IS REQUIRED TO DISMANTLE SYSTEMS OF OPPRESSION.

AND TOMORROW, RIGHT AFTER THIS SHOW, STICK AROUND FOR A GBH SPECIAL PRESENT, IN CONJUNCTION WITH "THE BOSTON GLOBE" AND NAACP BOSTON, "THE STATE OF THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org