>> O'Connell: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I'M SUE O'CONNELL, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

WITH AT LEAST 21 PEOPLE MURDERED AT AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN TEXAS, ONCE AGAIN, BY A PERSON WITH AN ASSAULT RIFLE, I'M JOINED BY TWO MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS ON WHY WE NEED TO BE TREATING GUN VIOLENCE AS A BE TREATING GUN VIOLENCE AS A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS.

THE, JUST AS IT DID AFTER COLUMBINE, THE N.R.A.

IS POISED TO HOST ITS ANNUAL CONVENTION JUST A FEW DAYS AND NOT FAR AWAY FROM WHERE ANOTHER MASS SCHOOL SHOOTING HAS TAKEN PLACE.

WE'LL LOOK BACK ON A CONVERSATION WITH NPR WASHINGTON INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT TIM MAK ABOUT THE N.R.A.

'S REACTION BACK IN 1999, AND SINCE.

>> O'Connell: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT AGAIN.

A HORRIFYING ACT OF GUN VIOLENCE AT AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN UVALDE, TEXAS, WHERE 21 PEOPLE, 19 OF THEM BETWEEN THE AGES OF NINE AND 10, WERE BRUTALLY MURDERED, MOST OF THEM, INSIDE A SINGLE CLASSROOM.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT AGAIN.

WORSE, FOR SOME, BECAUSE IT ONCE AGAIN INVOLVES CHILDREN, BUT ALSO COMPOUNDED BY THE FACT THAT WE'VE ALSO BEEN ONCE AGAIN TALKING ABOUT RACIALLY MOTIVATED GUN VIOLENCE AFTER A WHITE MAN SHOTS AND KILLED PEOPLE IN A SUPERMARKET IN BUFFALO NEW YORK.

GUN VIOLENCE, AND THESE ARE JUST TWO OF THE MANY, MANY MASS SHOOTINGS THIS YEAR, THE ONES WITH HIGH ENOUGH DEATH TOLLS TO MAKE THE NATION PAY ATTENTION, AT LEAST FOR A LITTLE WHILE.

ACCORDING TO F.B.I.

DATA RELEASED MONDAY, THERE WERE 61 "ACTIVE SHOOTER" ATTACKS LAST YEAR ALONE, KILLING 103 PEOPLE.

THAT WAS THE HIGHEST ANNUAL TOTAL SINCE 2017, AND A PATTERN SOME LAWMAKERS ARE CALLING FOR ACTION TO END.

>> AS THE SLAUGHTER INCREASES, AS OUR KIDS RUN FOR THEIR LIVES, WE DO NOTHING.

WHAT ARE WE DOING?

>> THESE KIND OF MASS SHOOTINGS RARELY HAPPEN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

WHY ARE WE WILLING TO LIVE WITH THIS CARNAGE?

>> O'Connell: QUESTIONS I HOPE THE PEOPLE WHO CONTINUOUSLY VOTE AGAINST COMMON-SENSE GUN REFORMS WILL ANSWER.

BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH, AND NEITHER ARE MY NEXT GUESTS, WHO ARGUE GUN VIOLENCE NEEDS TO BE VIEWED AS A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS IN THIS COUNTRY.

DOCTOR CHANA SACKS IS A PHYSICIAN AND THE CO-DIRECTOR OF MASS GENERAL HOSPITAL'S CENTER FOR GUN VIOLENCE PREVENTION.

AND DOCTOR LOIS LEE IS A PEDIATRIC EMERGENCY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN BOSTON CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL AND AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF PEDIATRICS AND EMERGENCY MEDICINE AT HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU DR. SACKS, I WANT TO FIRST START WITH YOU AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE ARE NOW MEMBERS THIS LARGE COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOST LOVED ONES IN SHOOTINGS, BOTH INDIVIDUAL SHOOTINGS, IN CRIME THAT HAPPENS AS WELL AS THE SHOOTINGS IN SUPERMARKETS AND CHUMPS AND SCHOOLS AND YOU'RE PART OF THAT FAMILY AS YOUR KOWSINS SON DANIEL WAS A VICTIM OF SANDY HOOK.

I KNOW SOMEONE, A COLLEAGUE WHO HAD A BEST FRIEND WHO WAS KILLED IN A SCHOOL SHOOTING.

THIS COMMUNITY CONTINUES TO GROW SADLY.

AND SOME OF THE DAMAGE THAT WE ALL SUFFER FROM EVEN THOUGH WE'RE NOT DIRECTLY PART OF THAT, THAT'S PART OF THIS PROBLEM WHEN IT COMES TO THE DAMAGE OF THESE SHOOTINGS.

AND I THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME ON THIS DAY, RIGHT?

>> SUE, THANKS FOR HAVING US.

IT'S A HORRIBLY PAINFUL DAY.

JUST TO SEE THOSE IMAGES, IT'S WRENCHING AND LIKE YOU SAID, FOR ME BUT FOR SO MANY OF US, IT'S PERSONAL.

AND IT'S DEEPLY PERSONAL.

WE'RE HERE BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT WE CAN DO BETTER.

I BELIEVE THIS IS NOT INEVITABLE.

THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO LIVE LIKE THIS.

AND I HOPE OVER THE COURSE OF THIS CONVERSATION I WILL CONVINCE YOU OF THAT.

>> DR. LEE, WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY, YOU KNOW, MISSTEPS, YOU KNOW, AROUND COVID AND MASKS AND ALL SORTS OF THINGS, IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE SCIENCE AND PROGRESS AND VENGS AND BACK SLIDING BUT WE HAVE BEEN DOING A PRETTY GOOD JOB OVER THE PAST CENTURY OF KEEPING PEOPLE SAFER, RIGHT?

AND KEEPING PEOPLE LIVING LONGER.

AND MAKING INVENTIONS THAT HELP US, EXCEPT WHEN IT COMES, ESPECIALLY TO GUN VIOLENCE.

WHAT, WHAT CAN WE DO, WHAT CAN YOU DO TO HELP CONVINCE LAWMAKERS AND PEOPLE THAT GUN VIOLENCE IS A PUBLIC HEALTH PROBLEM THAT IS AT THE BEST SOLVABLE, AT WORST WE COULD REDUCE THE DEATHS AND INJURIES REMARKABLY WITH SOME EFFORT.

>> RIGHT.

WELL, I THINK AS DR. SACKS SAYS, WE CANNOT ACCEPT THAT THESE ARE INEVITABLE.

MUCH LESS WE CANNOT ACCEPT THAT THESE DEATHS ARE SEPTEMBERABLE.

-- SECHABLE.

WE CAN'T JUST SAY OH, THERE IS ANOTHER MASS SHOOTING, BECAUSE THERE ARE KNOWN STRATEGIES TO CERTAINLY DECREASE OR MITIGATE ALL THESE GUN DEATHS.

AND THERE'S MANY MORE INJURIES, RIGHT, FOR THE DEATHS THAT WE HEAR ABOUT.

AND UNFORTUNATELY IT'S A VERY POLITICALLY DIVISIVE ISSUE, THAT REQUIRES POLITICAL WILL TO MAKE THE CHANGE.

WE NEED LEGISLATION, BASICALLY, TO KEEP GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE AT RISK, NOT JUST FOR HARMING OTHER PEOPLE AND HARMING THEMSELVES.

ALSO TO MAKE SURE THAT GUNS ARE SECURED APPROPRIATELY.

BUT AGAIN, BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A POLITICALLY DIVISIVE ISSUE IT IS REALLY HARD TO GET THE POLITICAL WILL AND TO GET AS YOU SAID THE COMMON SENSE FOR PEOPLE TO WANT TO MAKE A CHANGE.

>> DR. SACKS, THE DIFFERENCE I FEEL RIGHT NOW TALKING ABOUT THIS ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IT'S CHILDREN AS I NOTED THERE HAS BEEN OTHER SHOOTINGS AND THERE IS ALWAYS SHOOTINGS, BUT HAVING COME FROM, THE PANDEMIC WE'RE STILL IN, WHERE YOU KNOW, I THINK ALL OF US WERE DESPERATE TO GET OUR KIDS BACK TO SCHOOL, MOST OF US.

THE MAJORITY OF FOLKS WHERE WE HOPED THAT THEY WOULD BE SAFE.

AND THE RELUCTANCE OF SOME PEOPLE TO VACCINATE.

THE RELUCTANCE OF SOME PEOPLE TO WEAR MASKS IN THE FACE OF SCIENCE.

AND NOW HERE WE ARE WITH ANOTHER SCHOOL SHOOTING.

AND IT MAKES ME A LITTLE BIT MORE DEPRESSED THAT I'M NOT SURE WE HAVE THE WILL TO FOLLOW THE SCIENCE AS WE'VE BEEN SAYING, THAT THERE ARE WAYS TO REDUCE THE GUN DEATHS IN THIS COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY OF CHILDREN, GIVE ME A PEP TALK AND TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD BE DOING TO MAKE THAT CLANG.

>> I MEAN THERE'S NO QUESTION, RIGHT, SHUTTING DOWN SCHOOLS CANNOT BE THE ONLY PATHWAY TO ENDING SCHOOL SHOOTINGS.

THIS IS HORRENDOUS AND WE CAN'T LIVE WITH THIS.

THERE ARE REASONS TO BELIEVE THAT WE CAN REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE HERE.

THAT I THINK THE POLITICAL WILL, OBVIOUSLY IS CHALLENGING.

BUT IT'S CHANGING.

AND THERE ARE LOCAL THINGS THAT WE CAN DO IN ALL OF OUR COMMUNITIES TO TAKE ACTION AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE HERE.

AND WE REALLY, REALLY NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

THOSE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE SAYING THAT THERE IS NOTHING MORE THAT WE CAN DO ARE THROWING OUT REALLY DELUSIONAL ASSERTIONS THAT THE SOLUTION HERE IS MORE GUNS IN SCHOOLS.

THAT IS THE ONLY THING WE CAN CALL IT.

AND USUALLY I'M PRETTY MEASURED BUT I MEAN IT WHEN I SAY IT, THERE IS NO OTHER WORD THAT I CAN COME UP WITH, THE IDEA, THE NOTION THAT WE CAN ADD MORE GUNS TO THIS PROBLEM AND SHOOT OUR WAY OUT OF THIS PROBLEM IS JUST NOT TRUE.

SO OFTEN WE'VE BEEN OFFERING COMPLEX MULTITASKING SOLUTIONS, JUST AS DR. LEE MENTIONED THEY WILL BE NEEDED, SOME ARE LEGISLATIONIVE, WE NEED THAT BACKGROUND CHECK T WOULD BE GOOD TO HAVE AN ATF DIRECTOR WHOSE HEARING WAS TODAY, YES, RED FLAG LAWS AROUND THE COUNTRY, FEDERALLY MAKE SENSE.

THERE IS A LOT OF LEGISLATIVE PATHWAYS WE NEED TO GO DOWN, AND THEN THERE IS ALSO TEENAGERS SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO WALK IN AND BUY AR-15S AND BODY ARMOUR.

THOSE THINGS ARE ABSOLUTELY TRUE AND WE NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THOSE AND REALLY MOVE TOWARDS THAT PATH.

>> DR. LEE, OBVIOUSLY IT'S NOT A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO DRIVE A CAR, RIGHT.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK MANY PEOPLE, I POINT TO THIS ANALOGY ALL THE TIME.

I AM SOMETIMES, I LIVE IN A RESIDENTIAL STREET IN ROXBURY AND IT HAS A CURVE TO IT.

AND THERE IS A DAYCARE NEAR T ON A REGULAR BASIS THE KIDS ARE ALL WALKING ALONG, HOLDING ON TO THE LITTLE ROPE AND A CAR IS SPEEDING AND I THINK MY GOSH, IF WE INVENTED CAR THIS WEEK WE WOULD NEVER LET KIDS GET THAT CLOSE TO CARS ON THE STREET ON THE SIDEWALK.

WE PUT SPEED DUMP BUMPS ON MY STREET SO THAT INCREASED MY ANXIETY ABOUT THESE PEANUTS GETTING HILT BY A CAR SPEEDING.

WE HAVE THESE DANGEROUS THINGS WE DO EVERY DAY IN THE CAR BUT WE CONTINUE TO REDUCE CAR DEATHS, VEHICLE CRASHES, EXSCEPT DURING DOE VID I KNOW THOSE NUMBERS WENT UP, FIND WAYS TO MAKE CARS SAFER AND IT DOESN'T REALLY TAKE OUR JOY OF DRIVING AWAY.

WHY CAN'T WE GET THERE WITH GUNS AND GUN VIOLENCE IN THE USE OF GUNS AND THE ABILITY TO HAVE A LICENSE TO GET OR USE I GUN?

>> WE REALLY PUBLISHED THAT BECAUSE OF ALL OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH STEPS THAT HAVE OCCURRED, MOTOR VEHICLES THAT USED TO BE THE LEADING CAUSE OF DELT FORCE CHILDREN AND YOUTH, ONE TO 24 YEARS HAVE NOW BECOME THE SECOND LEADING CAUSE AND FIRE ARMS ARE THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR CHIRP AND YOUTH.

BUT BASICALLY THERE IS AN INFRASTRUCTURE THAT ALLOWS US TO LICENSE AND REGULATE PEOPLE WHO HAVE A CAR, RIGHT, YOU CAN'T BUY A CAR UNLESS YOU TAKE A DRIVER'S TEST, YOU GET A LICENSE AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE INSURANCE, AND ARE YOU REGISTERED SO WE KNOW WHO OWNS A CAR.

WE DON'T KNOW THAT ABOUT GUNS.

WE BARELY KNOW, WE DON'T EVEN REALLY KNOW HOW MANY GUN THERE ARE THE UNITED STATES.

ALL WE CAN SAY IS WE KNOW THERE ARE MORE GUNS, SOMEWHERE AROUNDS 390 MILLION, COMPARED TO THE 370 MILLION INDIVIDUALS IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO WE NEED AN INFRASTRUCTURE FOR MOTOR VEHICLES.

WE HAVE THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRANSPORTATION SAFETY ADMINISTRATION, THAT IS REALLY TASKED WITH NOT ONLY MAKING CARS SAFER BUT ROADS SAFER.

AND THEN YOU KNOW, INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE MAKING SURE THAT CARS ARE ALSO BUILT SAFER SO NOW ACTUALLY AUTOMOTIVE MANUFACTURERS, THEY ARE INCENTIVIZED TO BUILD SAFER CARS.

WE CAN INCENTIVIZE GUN MANUFACTURERS TO-- THERE IS TECHNOLOGY FOR SMART GUNS SO BASICALLY THAT ONLY THE AUTHORIZED USER CAN FIRE GUNS, THAT TECHNOLOGY EXISTS.

BUT IT'S NOT SOLD IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO THERE IS TECHNOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS.

BUT WE DO NEED AN OVERARCHING SORT OF SYSTEM LIKE WE HAVE FOR MOTOR VEHICLES TO TRACK THE DATA AND REALLY MONITOR CONTINUOUS IMPROVEMENTS SO THAT WE CAN DECREASE FIRE ARM INJURIES AND DEATHS.

>> O'Connell: OBVIOUSLY WE TALK ABOUT THE SITUATIONS WHEN WE HAVE THESE UNFORTUNATE AND PREVENTEDDABLE MASS SHOOTINGS BUT THE OTHER REALITY IS SUICIDE NUMBERS HAVE BEEN-- SELF-HARM NUMBERS ARE GOING UP WITH TEENS WHILE WE'RE SEEING STATISTICS THAT TEENS ARE NOW MORE LIKELY TO HAVE GUNS IN THEIR HOME THAN THEY HAVE HAD IN THE PAST.

AND WE KNOW FROM DATA THAT IF THERE IS A GUN AVAILABLE ARE YOU MORE LIKELY TO SADLY BE SUCCESSFUL IN A SUICIDE ATTEMPT THAN IF YOU DON'T HAVE A GUN IN THE HOME.

AND WE ARE SEEING, YOU KNOW, INTERACTIONS BETWEEN TEENS, VIOLENT INTERACTIONS IN SOME SPOTS.

MANY OF IT BECAUSE OF MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS AND COVID CRISIS, THERE HAS BEEN A NUMBER.

BUT IF THEY DON'T HAVE GUNS THOSE INTERACTIONS ARE LESS LIKELY TO BE AS VIOLENT AN OUTCOME AS THEY WOULD BE WITH GUNS.

SO WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS BIG EVENT, THE SAD TRAGIC, HORRIFIC EVENT WE ALSO HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT EVERY DAY THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES FOR US TO REDUCE GUN VIOLENCE DEATHS AND HARM TO CHILDREN VIA GUNS, RIGHT?

>> EVERY SINGLE DAY AND IT'S ONE OF THE MOST CRITICAL THINGS TO EMPHASIZE.

WE'RE HERE IN BOSTON, THEY RECEIPTICALLY, THE STATES, STILL GUNSHOTS ARE GOING OFF ALMOST EVERY DAY IN OUR CITY.

THE RIPPLE EFFECTS OF A GUN, WE ONLY TALLY DEATHS RELIABLE LY ON A NATIONAL LEVEL, WE ARE NOT COUNTING NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO SURVIVE THESE NONFATTAL INJURIES AND BECOME A LIFELONG PATIENTS.

WE ARE NOT TALLYING THAT PEOPLE WHO BEAR WITNESS TO THIS VIOLENCE AND ARE STRUGGLING WITH THE RAMIFICATIONS, BOTH PHYSICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH RAMIFICATIONS OF THESE INJURIES.

AND ONE THING THAT IS REALLY CRITICAL AND THAT I AM GOING TO ASK THAT ALL THE MEDIA REALLY THINK ABOUT DIFFERENTLY IS THAT WE HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION NOT JUST DURING THESE TIMES, THESE HORRIFIC SHOOTINGS THAT REALLY STOP US IN OUR TRACKS BUT EVERY SINGLE DAY.

WE HAVE TO DO BETTER TRANSFORMING THESE NARRATIVES SO EVERYBODY, EVERY REPORTER, EVERY PERSON IN THE MEDIA WHO IS WRITING A STORY TODAY ABOUT U VALDE, BUFFALO, IN DORCHESTER, WE CANNOT JUST FOCUS ON THESE COMMUNITIES ON THEIR WORST DAY.

WE HAVE TO UPLIFT THE AMAZING WORK BEING DONE IN THESE COMMUNITIES THAT IS BEING DONE FOR DECADES.

THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE, IN OUR CITY OF BOSTON, WHO HAVE BEEN ON THE FRONT LINES OF THIS FOR DECADES.

THE PEACE INSTITUTED IN DORCHESTER, REVEREND CLEMEN TINA CHERRY ONE OF MY HEROES WHO HAS BEEN DOING WORK OF HEALING AND COMMUNITY BUILDING EVERY DAY AND WE HAVE TO DO A BETTER JOB OF CENTERING THE VOICES OF THOSE SURVIVORS AND UPLIFT THEIR WORK.

BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WILL BE OUR PATHWAY OUT OF THIS, THIS RAPID FIRE NEWS CYCLE WE ALL KNOW IS BROKEN, WE KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM AND WE HAVE TROUBLE GETTING PAST IT.

BUT THAT IS PART OF OUR PATHWAY THROUGH IT, IS CENTERING THE VOICES OF SURVIVORS NOT JUST TODAY BUT OVER THE WEEKS AND MONTHS TO COME AND SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THOSE COMMUNITIES, SEEING WHAT WORKS FROM THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LEADING THIS FOR DECADES.

>> >> O'Connell: DR. LEE ONE OF THE THINGS WE IN THE MEDIA COULD DO A BETTER JOB OF IS DISCUSSING THINGS, THE VICTIMS AND-- VICTIMS AND THE CRIMES AND JUST THE HORROR OF IT MORE ACCURATELY, JULIA, WHO IS A FREAK GUEST HERE AT "GREATER BOSTON" AND BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO TALKED ABOUT HOW WE SHOULD BE USING THE WORD MASSACRE BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT ST. WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE HORROR THESE PARENTS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH BECAUSE THE WAY THESE BULLETS WORK WILL MAKE SOME OF THESE CHILDREN, THESE VICTIMS, THEIR LITTLE BODIES UNRECOGNIZABLE WITHOUT DID NA OR WITHOUT CLOTHING TO RECOGNIZE THEM MUCH AS IT WAS UNFORTUNATELY AND SADLY AT SANDY HOOK AND THAT WE NEED TO TELL KIDS THAT GETTING SHOT HURTS.

THAT IT CAN HAVE A LIFELONG, AS YOU MENTIONED, DR. SACKS, A LIFELONG CHRONIC ILLNESSES OR PAY.

SHOULD WE BE DOING THAT?

AM I RIGHT DR. LEE IN THINKING THAT WE NEED TO BE MORE GRAPHIC IN OUR DISCUSSION OF THIS?

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S GRAPHIC.

IT'S ACCURATE.

HOW ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO DESCRIBE THE HORRIBLE, LIKE THE UNBELIEVABLY HORRIBLE DEATH OF 22 ELEMENTARY SCHOOL AGED CHILDREN, RIGHT, KILLED BY A GUNMAN AT THEIR SCHOOL.

THAT IS A MASSACRE AND I CAN'T THINK OF ANY BETTER DEFINITION OF THAT.

SO THESE ARE ACCURATE DESCRIPTIONS.

AND THAT GUNS ARE MADE FOR REALLY ONLY ONE PURPOSE, RIGHT, TO MAIM OR KILL AND SO BY DEFINITION THEY ARE GOING TO CAUSE AN IMMENSE AMOUNT OF BODILY DAMAGE, IF NOT DEATH.

SO MAKING SURE THAT THAT STORY IS LOUD AND CLEAR, THAT GUNS ARE NOT TOYS, RGHT.

AND THAT'S THE UNFORTUNATE THING IS SOMETIMES CHILDREN WILL FIND THEM UNINTENTIONALLY AND THEN SHOOT THEIR BROTHER, THEIR SISTER, THEIR FRIEND.

AND THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT LEVEL FOR MENTAL TRAUMA FOR THAT CHILD AND THAT FAMILY.

SO I THINK JUST TELLING THE TRUTH IS ENOUGH.

>> DR. SACKS, YOUR POINT TODDLERS, GUNS ALL THE TIME, DON'T WANT TO OVERSTATE IT, DEATH BY A TODDLER, FINDING A GUN IS NET UNCOMMON.

MARNTS HAVE BEEN SHOT BY TODDLERS.

>> WE'VE ALL SEEN THOSE NEWS STORIES AND THE DATA, THESE MASS SHOOTINGS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, THE ONE THAT DEVASTATED MY FAMILY, THE ONE PEOPLE ARE REELING FROM TODAY, ACCOUNT FOR FAR LESS THAN 1 PERCENT OF GUN DEATHS IN THIS COUNTRY.

WIN PERCENT.

WE STILL NEED TO TALK ABOUT THEM BUT WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

THOSE UNINTENTIONAL SHOOTINGS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, THAT 2 PERCENT, OTHER HOMICIDES AND PERSONAL VIOLENCE, ABOUT A THIRD AND SUICIDE WHICH YOU MENTIONED, TWO THIRD, 60% OF ALL GUN RELATED DEATHS.

WE NEED TO BE TALKING ABOUT IT IN THAT WAY.

EASY ACCESS TO GUNS IS ABSOLUTELY THE COMMON LINK.

BUT EACH OF THOSE DIFFERENT TYPES OF GUN VIOLENCE WILL HAVE DIFFERENT ROOT CAUSES AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR INTERVENTION AND THAT IS WHY ANYBODY LOOKING FOR ONE SINGLE SOLUTION OR ONE SINGLE LAW OR ANNOUNCEMENT BY SOME POLITICIAN ISN'T GOING TO FIND IT.

THIS SAY MULTIFACETED PROBLEM THAT IS GOING TO REQUIRE ALL OF US AND DIFFERENT APPROACHES.

BUT EACH OF THEM IS POSSIBLE TO SOLVE.

>> DR. SACKS, DR. LEE I APPRECIATE YOU TAKING SOMETIME AND I APPRECIATE YOUR WORK, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

THIS FRIDAY, JUST A FEW DAYS, AND A FEW HUNDRED MILES FROM THE SLAUGHTER OF ALL THOSE KIDS AND THEIR TEACHERS IN UVALDE, THE N.R.A.

WILL GATHER IN HOUSTON FOR ITS ANNUAL CONVENTION.

IT'S THE SAME THING THEY DID MORE THAN 20 YEARS AGO IN DENVER, COLORADO, A LITTLE OVER A WEEK AFTER TWO GUNMAN KILLED 12 STUDENTS AND A TEACHER AT COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL, A MOVE THAT, AT FIRST, N.R.A.

LEADERS EXPRESSED CONCERNS ABOUT: >> AT THAT SAME PERIOD WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO BE BURYING THESE CHILDREN, WE'RE GOING TO BE HAVING MEDIA WITHIN 10 MILES OF OUR CONVENTION CENTER THE WORLD MEDIA, TRYING TO RUN THROUGH THE EXHIBIT HALL, LOOKING AT KIDS FONDLING FIREARMS, WHICH IS GOING TO BE A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE JUXTAPOSITION.

>> O'Connell: THAT DISCUSSION, WHICH HAPPENED THE DAY AFTER THE COLUMBINE SHOOTING, WAS MADE PUBLIC JUST LAST YEAR, AS PART OF SECRET RECORDINGS PUBLISHED BY NPR'S INVESTIGATIVE TEAM.

BUT THAT WAS CERTAINLY NOT THE END OF IT, WITH MANY OTHERS EXPRESSING CONCERN ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION LOOKING "WEAK" IF THEY WERE TO CANCEL THE EVENT.

>> THE MESSAGE THAT IT WILL SEND IS THAT EVEN THE N.R.A.

WAS BROUGHT TO ITS KNEES, AND- AND THE MEDIA WILL HAVE A FIELD DAY WITH IT.

>> O'Connell: THE OFFICIAL STANCE THE N.R.A.

ULTIMATELY TOOK AFTER COLUMBINE ESSENTIALLY CREATED THE PLAYBOOK FOR HOW THEY'VE RESPONDED TO THE MANY, MANY MASS SHOOTINGS SINCE-- THAT "GUNS PROTECT PEOPLE," AND THAT ANY TALK OF LEGISLATIVE ACTION IN THE WAKE OF THESE MASS SHOOTINGS IS JUST PLAIN "INAPPROPRIATE."

SHORTLY AFTER THOSE TAPES WERE PUBLISHED LAST DECEMBER, NPR WASHINGTON INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT AND AUTHOR OF "MISFIRE: INSIDE THE DOWNFALL OF THE N.R.A.,", TIM MAK, JOINED JIM BRAUDE HERE ON GREATER BOSTON TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HIS GROUP FOUND FROM BACK IN 1999, AND HOW THE N.R.A.

HAS OPERATED SINCE.

>> Braude: TIM, IT IS GOOD TO MEET YOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: SO THEY REJECTED CANCELLATION BUT FOR AWHILE THEY ACTUALLY CONSIDERED, WHAT WAS IT, A MILLION DOLLARS FOR THE VICTIMS.

WHY DID THEY REJECT THAT MOTION?

>> WELL, THERE WAS THIS KIND OF HINT AT A SOFTER APPROACH, A DISCUSSION OF A SOFTER APPROACH WHETHER CANCELING THE CONVENTION OR LIKE YOU SAY, A MILLION DOLLAR VICTIM FUND FOR FOLKS AFFECTEDDED BY COLUMBINE.

BUT AS YOU HEAR AND SEE THESE WHEELS IN MOTION AND THE NRA STRATEGY STARTS TO LAND, WHAT YOU FIND IS THAT THE TOP STRATEGIST AT THE NRA FELT THAT IF THEY WERE TO PULL BACK IT WOULD BE SOME SORT OF ADMISSION-OF-COMPLICIT OR RESPONSIBILITY IN SOME WAY.

AND THEY DIDN'T WANT TO GIVE OFF THAT IMPRESSION SO THEY COME WITH A MUCH MORE, ALMOST DEFIANT APPROACH.

>> YOU KNOW THE NRA INSIDE OUT PROBABLY AS MUCH AS PRACTICALLY ANYBODY.

HOW DO YOU THINK THE PEOPLE THEY REFERRED TO, THE ACTIVISTS AS HILLBILLY AND IDIOTS WILL REACT TO BEING CALLED HILLBILLIES AND IDIOTS BY THE PEOPLE WHO RUN THEIR ORGANIZATION?

>> WELL, I THINK WOULD YOU ASSUME NOT WELL AT ALL.

BUT THE THING IS THAT THE NRA MEMBERSHIP HAS STALLED IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS, THEY ARE IN AN IMMENSE AMOUNT OF LEGAL AND FRCHTION TROUBLE.

THEIR MEMBERSHIP EVEN BEFORE THIS REPORTING, EVEN BEFORE THIS CASE WAS PUT OUT, THERE WAS A LARGE SEGMENT OF ITS MEMBERSHIP ANGRY WITH THE NRA OVER ISSUES OF TRANSPARENCY, ACCOUNTABILITY, MILLIONS OF DLOFERS SPENT BY EXECUTIVES ON PRIVATE JET AND LAVISH MEALS AND TRIPS TO EXOTIC LOCALES LIKE THE BAHAMAS AND LAKE COMO.

>> I WANT TO STAY WITH THIS 1999 TAPES FOR A COUPLE OF SECONDS.

AS I MENTIONED THE CONVENTION WAS JUST DOWN THE ROAD IN DENVER SHORTLY AFTER.

AND THIS STRATEGY THAT WAS AGREED UPON, TO NEVER PLAY DEFENSE, AS I WOULD CALL T BUT TO BE GO ON THE OFFENSE WAS VOICED BY THE THEN PRESIDENT OF THE NRA CHARLTON HESTON.

HERE HE IS AT THAT CONVENTION.

>> WHEN AN ISOLATED, TERRIBLE EVENT OCCURS, OUR PHONES RING.

DEMANDING THAT THE NRA EXPLAIN THE INEXPLICABLE.

WHY US?

BECAUSE THERE TH STORY NEEDS A VILAN.

THE DIRTY SECRET OF THIS DAY AND AGE IS THAT POLITICAL GAIN AND MEDIA RATINGS ALL TOO OFTEN BLOOM ON FRESH GRAVES.

TODAY CARNAGE COMES WITH A CATCHY TITLE.

SPLASHY GRAPHICS, REGULAR PROMOS, AND A REACTIONARY PASSAGE OF LEGISLATION.

>> Braude: I HAVE TO SAY, I WAS SURPRISED WHEN LISTENING TO THE TAPE THAT THEY WERE NOT WORRIED ABOUT A REPEAT OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AFTER OKLAHOMA CITY, I THINK IT WAS FOUR YEARS EARLIER.

PEOPLE WILL PROBABLY RECALL THEY REFERRED TO THE BUR BEAU OF ALCOHOL, TO BE TO BE AND FIRE ARMS AS GOVERNMENT THUGS AND A WEEK LATER TIM McVEY BOMBED THE BUILDING TARGETING THE ATV.

WHY DO YOU THINK THERE WASN'T, AND BY THE WAY WE SHOULD MAKE CLEAR A HALF MILLION MEMBERS LEFT THE ORGANIZATION, ONE OF THOSE WAS GEORGE H.W.

BUSH, THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

WHY DID THEY NOT APPEAR WORRIED THERE WILL BE A MASS EXODUS YET AGAIN IF THEY PLAY TOUGH RATHER THAN SHOWING EMPATHY?

>> I THINK THEY WERE WORRIED THAT IF THEY SHOWED EMPATHY THERE WOULD BE EVEN GREATER, GREATER AND MORE CONSEQUENCES, THERE WAS SOME CONCERN THAT IN THE WAKE OF COLUMBINE THE CONSEQUENCES FOR THEM TO BE SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE THAN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NRA AFTER THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING WHICH WAS A CATASTROPHE FOR THE ASSOCIATION.

>> IT DID BECOME THEIR PLAY BOOK, AS I SAID AND I KNOW YOU AGREE FROM GOING FORWARD FROM COLUMBINE, THERE WAS ONE DEPARTURE FOR A BRIEF MOMENT AFTER SANDY HOOK AND I WAS AMONG THE NAIVE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVED THAT THIS WOULD WOULD FINALLY CAUSE EVEN THE UNCARING SOULS IN CONGRESS TO DO SOMETHING.

AFTER SANDY HOOK, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, AT LEAST FOR A BRIEF PERIOD OF TIME WASN'T THE NRA ON BOARD OR AT LEAST PART OF THE DISCUSSION AROUND THE TOOMEY MANSION, I WONDER WHATEVER HAPPENED TO JOE MANCHIN, THE TOOMEY MANCHIN BACKGROUND CHECK EXRIEMTION, WEREN'T THEY ON BOARD FOR AWHILE.

>> ABSOLUTELY, IT IS SOMETHING I DESCRIBE IN AM GREAT DETAIL IN MY BOOK, MISFIRE.

THEY WERE PART OF THE NEGOTIATION IN THE MANCHIN TOOMEY BILL AND HELPED DRAFT THE LEGISLATION AND THEY INSERTED SWEETENERS FOR GUN OPENERS IN THE LEGISLATION AND THEN PULLED OUT AT THE LAST SECOND.

>> Braude: WHY, WHY, WHY.

>> THEY WERE GETTING A LOT-- .

>> Braude: MY THESIS AND I DON'T KNOW NEARLY AS MUCH AS YOU DO ABOUT THE NRA.

I HAVE BEEN SPOWTING ON THE RADIO FOR YEARS THAT THEY SHOULD PICK ONE ISSUE WHERE THERE IS HUGE PUBLIC SUPPORT LIKE BACKGROUND CHECKS, THAT REALLY DOESN'T UNDERMINE THEIR CORE MISSION, THEIR CLOSENESS WITH THE GUN MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY AND THEIR MEMBERS, SO THAT THEY CAN DANGLE THAT OUT FOREVER TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE NOT UNEXRIEMSZING, THEY ARE WILLING TO COME TO THE TABLE WHY DID THEY DECIDE TOO BACK AWAY.

>> THEY WERE GETTING AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF PRESSURE FROM THEIR RIGHT, THEIR RIGHT FLANK, THE MOST IDEALOGICAL MEMBERS OF THEIR COALITION WHO WERE BEGINNING TO MOBILIZE AGAINST THE NRA.

AND IT FELT, THE ORGANIZATION FELT, AND THE EXECUTIVES FELT THAT THEY COULDN'T CONTINUE ON WITH THIS PATH.

THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THIS PENSION IN THE NRA BETWEEN THE LOB-- TENSION BETWEEN THE LOBBYISTS WHO WANT TO COME UP WITH LEGISLATIVE COMPROMISES AND THEIR ADVERTISING AND FUNDRAISING SIDE WHICH REALLY DOES GAIN A LOT FROM GINNING UP FEAR IN THEIR MEMBERSHIP.

>> Braude: THE SUBTITLE OF YOUR BOOK INSIDE THE DOWN FALL OF THE NRA.

I KNOW YOU MENTIONED A COUPLE OF MINUTES AGO, TIM, THERE IS OBVIOUSLY THE EFFORT BY LETICIA JAMES, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IN NEW YORK NOW RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, TO DISSOLVE THE NRA BECAUSE OF THEIR BUSINESS PRACTICES.

THERE IS THE LITIGATION FILED BY THE ORGANIZATION, FORMER CONGRESSMAN GABBY GIFFORDS SHOT AS PEOPLE, I'M SURE REMEMBER AND KNOW, TALKS BEING WHAT IS IT, 35 MILLION DOLLARS IN ILLEGAL CAMPAIGN DISTRIBUTIONS TO PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP AND A LOT OF THE REPUBLICAN SENATORS.

BUT IS THERE OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE THAT A DOWN FALL IS IN THE WORKS IN THE NRA?

>> THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL'S INVESTIGATION AND LAWSUIT WITH THE NRA TARGETING THE NRA, IS THE EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO THE ORGANIZATION.

THEY WERE ORIGINALLY FOUNDED IN NEW YORK, THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS JURISDICTION OVER THEM AS A NONPROFIT.

AND HER OFFICE IS SEEKING A JUDGES ORDER TO DISSOLVE THE ORGANIZATION COMPLETELY AND pTHEIR INVESTIGATION WHICH ANYONE CAN READ THE COMPLAINT FILED IN COURT LAYS OUT TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN MISCONDUCT AND MISSPENDING BY WAYNE LAPERIERRE AND SENIOR FOLKS AT THE TOP OF THE NRA.

>> SPEAKING OF WAYNE LAPERIERRE I MENTIONED YOU BEFORE, I HADN'T ROAD YOUR BOOK YET, I HOPE TO READ IT THIS WEEKEND, BUT HAVE I READ YOUR ACCOUNT OF THE MISS TEAK OF WAYNE LAPIERRE THAT PEOPLE LIKE ME HAVE FALLEN FOR.

THE TOUGH GUY, WHO HAS BEEN ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO STAY IN LEADERSHIP FOR THREE DECADES, I THINK.

IN THE LAST MINUTE WE HAVE, CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE REAL WAYNE LAPIERRE BASED ON YOUR REPORTING?

>> THE OPENING SCENE OF MISFIRE IS AT WAYNE LAPIERRE'S WEDDING AND HE DOESN'T SHOW UP.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO GET MARRIED.

HIS BEST MAN SLAPS A $100 BILL ON THE DASH BOARD AND SAYS LET'S JUST GET OUT OF HERE.

I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD GET MARRIED EITHER.

BUT HE GETS TALKED INTO IT, ALMOST BERATED INTO IT, HARANGUED INTO IT BY HIS BRIDE AND THEN COME THIS AWKWARD CEREMONY WHERE HE CAN'T EVEN MAKE EYE CONTACT WITH HER.

AND I TELL THAT ANECDOTE BECAUSE IF YOU TALK TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSEST WITH WAYNE LAPIERRE THEY DESCRIBE A DEEPLY ANXIOUS AND CONFLICT A FERS PERSON WHO AS POWERFUL PEOPLE INSIDE THE NRA HAVE FOUND CAN BE YELLED AT, BERATED INTO AGREEING TO MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN SWEETHEART DEALS AND GOLDEN PARACHUTES FOR FORMER OFFICIALS.

THE FINANCIAL AND LEGAL PROBLEMS THE NRA IS SPACING REALLY ALL STEM FROM THESE CHARACTER FLAWS IN WAYNE LAPIERRE WHO HAS BEEN THE HEAD OF THE ORGANIZATION AS YOU POINT OUT FOR SOME 30 YEARS.

>> Braude: SO HOW HAS HE MAINTAINED CONTROL WITH HIS TWO PLUS MILLION DOLLAR SALARY, MILLION PLUS IN EXPENSES FOR DUB YOWS-- DUBIOUS NRA WE ARE LATED ACTIVITIES, HOW HAS HE MAINTAINED CONTROL?

>> MY THEORY OF THE CASE IS THAT HE IS WITHIN HIS MALL ABILITY, HAS MADE HIMSELF INDISPENSABLE TO MANY POWERFUL PEOPLE AND IN AND AROUND THE NRA WHETHER BOARD MEMBERS AND VENDORRING MAKING A KILLING.

>> Braude: I REALLY APPRECIATE T I LOOK FORWARD TO READING YOUR BOOK AND THE TAPES YOU WERE ABLE TO GET AHOLD OF WERE JUST REALLY EXPLOSIVE, TO SAY THE LEAST.

A HORRIBLE CHOICE OF WORD, MY APOLOGIES.

GREAT TO SEE YOU, THANKS SO MUCH, LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING TO YOU AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

>> O'Connell: THE BOOK AGAIN IS "MISFIRE: INSIDE THE DOWNFALL OF THE N.R.A."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

WE'LL TAKE A LOOK AT THE MENTAL HEALTH TOLL THIS SHOOTING WILL HAVE ON CHILDREN IN UVALDE, TEXAS, AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOODNIGHT.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org