>> Reilly: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": I'M ADAM REILLY, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

WHEN IT COMES TO DISMANTLING THE EFFECTS OF SYSTEMIC RACISM IN THE U.S., FORMER HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL LECTURER STEVEN ROGERS SAYS BRIDGING THE WEALTH GAP WOULD GET US THREE-QUARTERS OF THE WAY THERE.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, "A LETTER TO MY WHITE FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES," HE LAYS OUT CONCRETE WAYS TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

HE JOINS ME TO DISCUSS.

THEN, LATER, THE GEORGETOWN LAW PROFESSOR WHO WANTED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT HOW D.C. POLICE OPERATE, SO SHE BECAME A COP.

SHE CHRONICLES WHAT SHE LEARNED OVER HER FOUR YEARS ON THE FORCE IN THE NEW BOOK, "TANGLED UP IN BLUE."

♪♪ >> Reilly: EVER SINCE GEORGE FLOYD WAS MURDERED IN MINNEAPOLIS A YEAR AGO, THERE'S BEEN A MARKED INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF WHITE AMERICANS ASKING WHAT THEY CAN DO TO FIGHT RACISM NATIONALLY AND IN THE COMMUNITIES THEY CALL HOME.

SOME OF THE VOICES ANSWERING THAT QUESTION CAST THE BIG CHALLENGE AS INTELLECTUAL.

CASE IN POINT: IBRAM X. KENDI, THE AUTHOR OF THE BOOK "HOW TO BE AN ANTI-RACIST" AND THE DIRECTOR AND FOUNDER OF BOSTON UNIVERSITY'S NEW CENTER FOR ANTI-RACIST RESEARCH, WHO DESCRIBED ANTI-RACISM TO JIM BRAUDE THIS WAY: >> AS WE EMBARK ON THE WORLD AND WE SEE, FOR INSTANCE, A RACIAL GROUP ON THE LOWER END OF THE DISPARITY, WE DON'T THINK IT'S BECAUSE THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THOSE PEOPLE.

WHEN WE SEE BLACK PEOPLE DYING FROM POLICE VIOLENCE, WE TRY TO THINK OF, OKAY, WHAT ARE THE POLICIES AND PRACTICES THAT ARE LEADING TO THIS DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF BLACK PEOPLE DYING AT THE HANDS OF POLICE, AND THEN HOW CAN I FIGHT AGAINST THAT?

HOW CAN I CHALLENGE THE IDEAS THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE DANGEROUS?

>> Reilly: WHITE-DOMINATED INSTITUTIONS ARE ASKING HOW THEY CAN FIGHT RACISM, TOO, WITH MANY COMMITTING THEMSELVES TO A HOST OF NEW INITIATIVES AIMED AT MAKING WORK PLACES MORE DIVERSE AND MORE EQUITABLE.

BUT STEVEN ROGERS, A FORMER SENIOR LECTURER AT HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL, SAYS THERE'S ANOTHER WORLD OF CONCRETE AND EFFECTIVE SOLUTIONS WAITING TO BE EMBRACED.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, "A LETTER TO MY WHITE FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES, WHAT YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW TO HELP THE BLACK COMMUNITY," HE OFFERS SOME ADDITIONAL AND VERY CONCRETE IDEAS FOR THE WAY WHITE AMERICANS, ESPECIALLY IN THE WORLD OF BUSINESS, CAN PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR CLAIMS OF ALLYSHIP TO PUSH THE UNITED STATES CLOSER TO THE IDEAS WE CLAIM TO EMBODY.

STEVEN ROGERS JOINS ME NOW.

>> Reilly: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO IT.

>> Reilly: LET ME ASK YOU A VERY OBVIOUS QUESTION: WHY DID YOU WRITE THIS BOOK RIGHT NOW?

>> THE CATALYST FOR WRITING THE BOOK WAS MY DAUGHTER REACHING OUT TO ME A FEW DAYS AFTER GEORGE FLOYD WAS MURDERED.

SO LAST YEAR, ABOUT JUNE 1st, MY DAUGHTER REACHED OUT TO ME, AND SHE AN EXECUTIVE WITH A FIT TECH COMPANY, AND SHE SAID, DAD, I'M HURTING.

SHE SAID, THE BLACK COMMUNITY NEEDS HELP, WOULD YOU PLEASE SPEAK TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY AS IF YOU WERE THE PRESIDENT.

AND SO I DID A PODCAST, AND IT WAS SAY IT LOUD, I'M BLACK AND PROUD AND I ANGRY AND I'M SAD.

I CITED THREE THINGS I WANTED THE BLACK COMMUNITY TO DO.

ONE WAS TO TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES.

NUMBER TWO WAS PROTESTING.

THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE PROTESTING GOING ON TO FIGHT AN UNJUST SITUATION THAT HAD OCCURRED.

THREE WAS TO BE COMFORTABLE WITH GRIEVING, THAT THIS WAS A MOMENT WHERE GRIEVING WAS APPROPRIATE.

AND THEN FINALLY I SAID, AND PLEASE HELP WHITE PEOPLE HELP US, HELP THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

PLEASE HELP WHITE PEOPLE HELP THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

I SAID THAT BECAUSE A LOT OF BLACK PEOPLE WERE EXACERBATED AND ANNOYED BY WHITE PEOPLE SAYING TO THEM, WHAT CAN I DO NOW?

SOME BLACK PEOPLE WOULD SAY IN RESPONSE, DON'T ASK ME BECAUSE I DIDN'T CREATE THIS PROBLEM.

YOU CREATED THIS PROBLEM.

ADAM, I FELT THIS WAS A TEACHABLE MOMENT.

SO I SAID TO BLACK PEOPLE, PLEASE HELP WHITE PEOPLE TO HELP US.

WE CAN'T GET OUT OF THIS ECONOMIC MALAISE ON OUR OWN.

WITH THAT, I DECIDED TO WRITE A BOOK SPECIFICALLY TARGETING WHITE PEOPLE, GIVING THEM MORE DETAILS ABOUT HOW THEY CAN HELP THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

I'LL FINISH WITH THIS STORY VERY QUICKLY: THE IDEA CAME ABOUT ALSO BECAUSE OF MALCOLM "X."

HE WAS DOING A TOUR OF COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.

AND HE FINISHED HIS SPEECH, AND A YOUNG WHITE WOMAN CAME UP TO HIM AND SAID, HOW CAN I HELP, WHAT CAN I DO?

AND HIS ANSWER TO HER WAS NOTHING.

AND HE WALKED AWAY.

AND HE SAID LATER ON IT WAS ONE OF HIS MAJOR REGRETS BECAUSE HE COULD HAVE HELPED HER HELP HIM HELP THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

SO THAT WAS THE SPIRIT IN WHICH I DECIDED TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

AND THAT IS FOR THOSE WHO ARE SINCERELY INTERESTED AND HELPING THE BLACK COMMUNITY, I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE FORMULA FOR DOING IT THAT YOU CAN IMPLEMENT IMMEDIATELY.

>> Reilly: YOU OUTLINED FOUR SPECIFIC STEPS REGARDING MONEY AND THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES, AND WE'RE GOING TO GO THROUGH THEM IN JUST A SEFNLGTD SECOND.

BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE JUMPING OFF MOMENT IS EXPLAINING THE WEALTH GAP, BOTH EXPLAINING HOW HUGE THE WEALTH GAP IS, AND THEN EXPLAINING THE ORIGINS IN A WAY SOME OF US MAY NOT HAVE THOUGHT IT THROUGH.

HERE IN BOSTON, THERE WAS A STUDY -- I'M SURE YOU SAW IT -- BEFORE YOU HEADED BACK TO ILLINOIS -- A 2015 STUDY FROM THE BOSTON FEDERAL RESERVE THAT FOUND THE MEDIAN NET WORTH FOR WHITE HOUSEHOLDS, $250,000.

AND FOR BLACK HOUSEHOLDS, IT WAS $8.

IT WAS A STRIKING NUMBER, THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THERE WAS SOME KIND OF MISTAKE, BUT THERE WAS NO MISTAKE.

WHAT DO PEOPLE, FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT, NOT UNDERSTAND, WHEN IT COMES TO THE WEALTH GAP, THAT THEY NEED TO UNDERSTAND?

>> WELL -- AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR CITING THAT BOSTON STATISTIC.

IT IS IN THE BOOK AS WELL.

BUT WHAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND STATE GOVERNMENTS, ADAM, THEY INTENTIONALLY SUBSIDIZE AND IN SUBSIDIZEING ARE IMPLEMENTING WHITE PEOPLE, AND THEY'RE DESIGNED EXPLICITLY TO NO INCLUDE BLACK PEOPLE.

240 YEARS OF SLAVERY WAS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZING WHITE WEALTH.

>> Reilly: FOR THE COTTON INDUSTRY?

>> YES.

SO ALMOST 12GENERATIONS OF WHITES TRANSFERRING WEALTH TO EACH OTHER, AND BLACKS HAD NO CHANCE TO TRANSFER WEALTH BECAUSE THERE IS NO COMPENSATION.

ONE BLACK LADY SAID FOR THOSE 246 YEARS IT IS LIKE BLACK PEOPLE WERE PLAYING MONOPOLY WITH WHITE PEOPLE.

AND EVERY TIME A BLACK PERSON WON, THEY HAD TO GIVE THEIR MONEY TO THE WHITE PERSON.

AND THAT'S ONE THING PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND AND RECOGNIZE.

AND THAT 246 YEARS WAS FOLLOWED BY 60 YEARS OF BLACK CODES AND VAGUE VAG VAGRANCY LAWS -- >> Reilly: YOU CITE ONE IN THE BOOK -- I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH STATE, BUT SAYING ANY BLACK PERSON ENGAGED IN LABOR THAT WAS NOT BENEFICIAL TO WHITE PEOPLE COULD BASICALLY BE -- >> COULD BE ARRESTED.

>> Reilly: AND THEN THEIR KIDS TO BE APPRENT APPRENTICED TO WHITE PEOPLE.

>> BLACK PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO GET OUT OF THE SOUTH AFTER THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION.

MANY OF THEM, FOR EXAMPLE, WOULD BE AT THE TRAIN STATIONS TRYING TO GET NORTH.

AND WHITES IMPLEMENTED A VAGGRANCY LAW, SAYING IF YOU DON'T HAVE A CONTRACT SAYING YOU'RE EMPLOYED, YOU'RE VIOLATING VAGRANCY LAWS.

AND SO THEY ARRESTED BLACK PEOPLE, AND THEN THEY SAID WE'RE GOING TO TAKE YOUR CHILDREN AND PUT THEM IN SERVITUDE TO A WHITE FAMILY.

IF THEY WERE A MA'AM, IT WOULDMALE, ITWOULD BE 18 YEARS, AND IF THEY WERE A FEMALE, FOR 21YEARS, YEARS WITH NO COMPENSATION.

SO THE STATES WOULD LEASE THEM OUT TO PRIVATE COMPANIES, LIKE U.S. STEEL -- >> Reilly: AGAIN, PRELABOR.

>> FOR THE PURPOSE OF ENRICHING WHITES.

>> Reilly: I WANT TO GET TO YOUR SOLUTIONS, BECAUSE THE HISTORY IS FASCINATING -- BY THE WAY, ONE OTHER THING YOU MENTIONED IN THE BOOK, AND VIEWERS CAN CHECK OUT WHEN THEY PICK UP THE BOOK, BUT THE ROLE THAT F.D.R.

PLAYED IN GENERATING A BOOM FOR WHITE PEOPLE WITH HOME OWNERSHIP AND NOT FOR BLACK.

BUT I'VE GOT TO GET TO YOUR FOUR STEPS.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAID WAS IMPORTANT IS DEPOSITING MONEY IN BLACK-OWNED MONEY.

WHY?

>> I'M RECOMMENDING THAT DEPOSIT AT LEAST 9.29%, AND THAT REPRESENTS THE NINE MINUTES AND 29 SECONDS THAT THE COP HAD HIS KNEE ON GEORGE FLOYD'S NECK.

THAT IS JUST THE MINIMUM.

72% -- EXCUSE ME, OVER 70% OF MORTGAGES GIVEN BY BLACK-OWNED BANKS GO TO BLACK PEOPLE.

WHERE LESS THAN 1% OF MORTGAGES OWNED BY WHITE BANKED GOES TO BLACK PEOPLE.

AND THEN I RECOMMEND THAT THE MONEY BE PUT INTO AN ACCOUNT AND HELD THERE FOR TWO TO THREE YEARS SO THE BLACKS CAN GET THE BENEFIT OF THE MULTIPLIER.

THE BLACK BANKS PRIMARILY CATER TO BLACK PEOPLE.

AND 35% OF ALL BLACK PEOPLE HAVE ZERO NET WORTH.

SO BLACK BANKS HAVE BEEN GETTING DEPOSITS FROM POOR BLACK PEOPLE WHO GIVE THEM VERY LITTLE MONEY, AND THEN THEY HAVE TO TAKE IT OUT SO THEY CAN LIVE THEIR LIVES.

SO WHAT BLACK-OWNED BANKS NEED IS MEANINGFUL DOLLARS.

AND IT IS RISK-FREE FOR UP TO $250,000, AND THIS IS A PROGRAM WE'VE IMPLEMENTED WITH MY SECTION AT HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL TO PUT MONEY IN BLACK-OWNED BANKS.

>> Reilly: AND JUST LIKE BLACK FAMILIES HAD TROUBLE GETTING CREDIT WHEN CHEAP HOMES WERE BUILT FOR WHITE PEOPLE, AND BLACK BANKS HAD TROUBLE GETTING ACCESS TO RESOURCES, AND BLACK-OWNED UNIVERSITIES DONATING.

YOU TALK IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE GREAT EXPERIENCE YOU HAD AT WILLIAMS COLLEGE, WHERE THERE WERE VERY FEW BLACK STUDENTS, BUT YOU THRIVED AND WERE SET UP BY THE INSTITUTION, AND YOU CLEARLY HAVE AFFECTION FOR IT.

YOU WERE SET UP FOR THIS GREAT CAREER YOU WENT ON TO HAVE.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE DONATE TO HBCUs, AS OPPOSED TO SAYING, I WENT TO CARLTON COLLEGE IN MINNESOTA, SO GIVE MONEY THERE BUT FOR EAR MARK IT FOR STUDENTS OF COLOR.

WHY IS HBCUs THE WAY TO GO?

>> RECOMEND HBCUs, AND I HAVE A SCHOLARSHIP AT WILLIAMS COLLEGE, BUT I ALSO HAVE MONEY THAT I DONATED TO HBCUs, AND THE REASON IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE DONE A HERCULEAN JOB OF PRODUCING BLACK PROFESSIONALS AND BLACKS IN OWL CATEGORIES.

THERE ARE 101 HBCUs THAT 300,000 STUDENTS.

THE AVERAGE ENDOWMENT IS ONLY $12 MILLION.

75% OF THE STUDENTS IN HBCUs QUALIFY FOR GRANTS, WHICH MEANS THEIR HOUSEHOLD HAS AN INCOME OF $26,000 OR LESS, THUNDER ISANDTHAT'S JUST 5,000 LESS THAN THE POVERTY.

AND HBCUs HAVE PRODUCED 80% OF ALL OF THE BLACK JUDGES THAT WE HAVE IN AMERICA.

THEY PRODUCE 50% OF ALL OF THE BLACK LAWYERS, 40% OF ALL OF THE BLACK ENGINEERS.

SO THE HBCUs ARE GREAT CONTRIBUTORS TO THE BLACK SOCIETY, AND THEY NEED TO BE FUNDED AND EMBRACED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE OTHER THAN ALLIANCES.

THE GREATEST CONTRIBUTOR IS McKENZIE SCOTT, ONE OF THE CO-FOUNDERS OF AMAZON.COM.

THIS PAST YEAR SHE DONATED OVER $540 MILLION TO HBCUs.

AND THIS IS ONE OF THE COOLEST THINGS SHE DID.

WHEN SHE SENT THE MONEY, SHE ACCOMPANIED THE MONEY WITH A NOTE TO THE PRESIDENT.

AND IT SAID: "YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING, KEEP DOING IT."

>> Reilly: AND WE ONLY HAVE JUST A LITTLE OVER THREE MINUTES LEFT, AND THERE ARE TWO THINGS WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO.

ONE IS PATRONIZING BLACK-OWNED BUSINESSES.

I THINK WITH YOUR PERMISSION, THE RATIONALE SEEMS FAIRLY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

MY SENSE IS WE'VE SEEN IN THE BOSTON AREA AND ELSEWHERE PEOPLE DOING EXACTLY THAT, FOR REASONS THAT EVEN THE NON-FINANCIALLY ASTUTE BY ME CAN GRASP.

I WANT TO GIVE YOU TIME TO TALK REPARATIONS.

HOW DO YOU THINK WHITE WOULD-BE ALLIES SHOULD SUPPORT REPARATIONS, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK AS SOMEONE WHO SPECIALIZED IN FINANCE A REPARATION PACKAGE MIGHT LOOK LIKE?

>> BLACK-OWNED BUSINESSES ARE THE LARGEST EMPLOYERS OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY, SO WHEN YOU PATRONIZE BLACK BUSINESSES, YOU EMPLOY BLACK PEOPLE.

MY REPARATIONS RECOMMENDATION WOULD BE BECAUSE THE DISPARITY BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE IS $242,000.

THEY SHOULD GIVE BLACK PEOPLE 18 YEARS OR OLDER, THEY SHOULD GIVE THEM A CHECK OF THAT DIFFERENCE TO BRING THEM UP TO QUALITY WITH THE WHITE COMMUNITY.

THAT WOULD BE PROBABLY 20 MILLION PEOPLE WHO WOULD RECEIVE SUCH A CHECK, SO IT WOULD COST AMERICA $3 TRILLION, WHICH IS $1 TRILLION LESS WHAT AMERICA PAYS TO BAIL OUT THE BANKS.

AMERICANS HAVE NEVER GIVEN REPARATIONS FOR BLACK SLAVERY.

THEY DID IT RIGHTFULLY TO JAPANESE-AMERICANS WHO WERE INTERNS DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

120,000 WERE INTERNS.

80,000 RECEIVED A CHECK FOR $20,000.

THEY ALSO, AMAZINGLY, GAVE REPARATIONS FOR FORMER SLAVE OWNERS AFTER THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION.

OVER 900 FORMER WHITE SLAVE OWNERS WERE GIVEN CHECKS FOR $300 PER SLAVE THEY RECEIVED.

SO AMERICA HAS DONE WELL BY OTHERS, BUT IT HAS NEVER DONE ANYTHING TO HELP BLACK PEOPLE.

IT SAID AFTER SLAVERY, GO ON YOUR OWN AND DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO.

THE ONLY ATTEMPT THEY MADE TO GIVE ANY BLACK PEOPLE ANYTHING WAS SPECIAL ORDER NUMBER 15, BY WILLIAM SHERMAN, THE GENERAL.

AND HE MET WITH BLACK PEOPLE, 20 BLACK CLERGY AFTER EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION, AND HE ASKED THEM, BECAUSE LINCOLN TOLD HIM TO ASK THEM, AND THAT IS: WHAT DO THE NEGRO WANT?

AND 20 BLACK CLERGYMEN SAID WE WANT LAND.

SO THEY SAID THEY WERE GOING TO TAKE LAND FROM THE CONFEDERATES GUILTY OF TREASON, AND SO WE'LL GIVE IT TO BLACKS AT $1.25 AN ACRE.

>> Reilly: I'VE GOT TO ASK YOU BEFORE WE GO, AND YOU HAVE TO GIVE A ONE WORD ANSWER, I'M SORRY, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE DOING THIS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YES.

>> Reilly: STEVE ROGERS, THANK YOU FOR MAKING TIME TO WALK US THROUGH THIS.

THE BOOK IS "A LETTER TO MY WHITE FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES."

I APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Reilly: THE BOOK, AGAIN, IS INTERSTATE A LETTER TO MY WHITE FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES: WHAT YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW TO HELP THE BLACK COMMUNITY."

NEXT UP, ROSA BROOKS HAS SPENT MUCH OF HER CAREER EXAMINING THE INTERSECTION OF LAW AND VIOLENCE IN THIS COUNTRY, AS A GEORGETOWN LAW PROFESSOR, A NEWSPAPER COLUMNIST, IN THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE AND DEPARTMENT OF STATE.

BUT IN 2016, SHE DECIDED SHE WANTED SOME FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE.

SO ON TOP OF HER FULL-TIME, TENURED PROFESSORSHIP, BROOKS SIGNED UP TO BE A VOLUNTEER RESERVE POLICE OFFICER IN THE WASHINGTON, D.C. METRO POLICE DEPARTMENT.

SHE WENT THROUGH THE TRAINING, THEN WORKED 24 HOURS A MONTH ALONGSIDE FULL-TIME OFFICERS FOR THE NEXT FOR YEARS, WEARING THE SAME UNIFORM, CARRYING THE SAME BADGE AND GUN, AND PATROLLING THE SAME STREETS.

SHE CHRONICLES WHAT SHE LEARNED IN HER NEW BOOK, "TANGLED UP IN BLUE: POLICING THE AMERICAN CITY."

ROSA BROOKS RECENT THE JOINED JIM TO DISCUSS.

>> Braude: ROSA, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> IT IS GOOD BE TO YOU.

>> Braude: WHY DID A 40 SOMETHING LAW PROFESSOR WANT TO BE A COP?

>> MY FAMILY THOUGHT I WAS NUTS.

I'VE ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LAW AND VIOLENCE, AND AMERICAN POLICING IS CERTAINLY VIOLENT COMPARED TO OTHER DEMOCRACIES.

IT DOES SEEM LIKE SUCH A FASCINATING OPPORTUNITY TO GET INSIDE A CULTURE THAT IS SO OFTEN CLOSED AND OPAQUE TO THOSE ON THE OUTSIDE AND LEARN MORE ABOUT IT.

I THINK IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE SOMETHING, HAVE YOU TO UNDERSTAND IT FIRST.

>> Braude: YOU BRING US ON TO THE STREETS OF D.C., BUT FIRST YOU BRING US INTO THE TRAINING ROOMS FOR NEW COPS.

CAN YOU SHARE WITH US WHAT IS DRUMMED INTO THE HEADS OF THE TRAINEES, AND WHAT IS RARELY, IF EVER MENTIONED, EVEN THOUGH IT IS THE THING THAT ALMOST ALL OF AMERICA IS TALKING ABOUT, ROSA?

>> YOU SPEND A LOT OF TIME MEMORIZING THINGS LIKE THE NINE PROPERTY FORMS AND THE RIGHT COLOR OF INK TO FELL THEM OUT IN, AND YOU SPEND A LOT OF TIME ON VEHICULAR OFFENSES, AND SO FORTH.

I THOUGHT THAT THE IMPLICIT MESSAGE OF THE POLICE ACADEMY VERY OFTENxD WAS ONE ABOUT RISK.

ANYONE CAN KILL YOU AT ANY TIME.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ROUTINE CALL.

YOU HAVE TO CONSTANTLY BE PREPARED FOR A LETHAL THREAT TO COME OUT OF NOWHERE.

WATCH PEOPLE'S HANDS, NOT THEIR EYES.

THEIR EYES CAN'T KILL YOU, THEIR HANDS WILL.

THAT WAS DRUMMED IN IN ALL SORTS OF WAYS.

AND THAT HAS ALL KINDS OF IMPLICATIONS FOR HOW POLICE OFFICERS INTERACT WITH PEOPLE.

BUT WHAT WASN'T INCLUDED IN THE CURRICULUM WAS THE CONVERSATION THE REST OF THE COUNTRY WAS HAVING ABOUT RACE AND POLICING, ABOUT POLICING AND THE USE OF FORCE.

WHAT IS POLICING FORE?

WHAT IS GOOD POLICING, AND DO WE KNOW IT WHEN WE SEE IT?

HOW DO WE MEASURE IT?

ALL OF THOSE ISSUES WERE SORT OF DROWNED OUT BY THE MEMORIZING OF THE PROPERTY FORMS.

>> Braude: AND YOU WRITE THAT BOTH BLACK AND WHITE COPS REFER TO SOME PEOPLE IN THE CITY THEY'RE PATROLLING AS "F"-ING ANIMALS.

WHAT IS THE TAKE-AWAY?

>> WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT CLASS WHEN WE THINK ABOUT BIAS.

WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT CLASS AS WELL AS RACE.

AND OFTEN THAT WAS A COMMENT ON CLASS, ON PERCEPTIONS OF PEOPLE AS LOWER CLASS, AS NO GOOD, RATHER THAN A COMMENT ABOUT RACE.

BUT THE OTHER THING, I THINK, IS -- AND MANY CRITICS OF POLICING HAVE POINTED THIS OUT -- IS THAT THE RACISM IS BAKED SO COMPLETELY INTO THE SYSTEM THAT IN MANY WAYS IT CAN BE INVISIBLE.

SO BY THE TIME A COP GETS INTO A SITUATION, ALL OF THE CHOICES ARE BAD ONES.

THE SITUATION COULDN'T AND WOULDN'T HAVE PROBABLY COME ABOUT HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE LEGACY OF CENTURIES OF OVERT DISCRIMINATION, BUT THAT TRANSLATES INTO THINGS LIKE DISCRIMINATORY ZONING RULES, DISCRIMINATORY DECISIONS IN THE PLACEMENT OF PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, DISCRIMINATORY PROVISION OF SERVICES IN A VARIETY OF WAYS, WHICH IN TURN CAN MAKE IT HARD FOR SOME COMMUNITIES TO GET OUT OF A CYCLE OF POVERTY AND CRIME.

BUT THOSE THINGS ARE OFTEN INVISIBLE TO OFFICERS.

WHAT THEY SEE IS THE CRIME AND THE DYSFUNCTION.

THEY DON'T SEE THE POLICY DECISIONS, OFTEN DISCRIMINATORY ONES, THAT CREATED THAT CRIME AND DYSFUNCTION AND THAT MAKE IT SO HARD TO CHANGE.

>> Braude: DESPITE THE DIFFERENT BACKGROUND YOU BROUGHT TO THIS, DID YOU FALL PREY TO THAT AT ANY TIME, DESPITE YOUR BEST INTENTIONS?

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK SO BECAUSE I'VE WORKED, DURING THE COURSE OF MY CAREER, IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLACES, FROM THE BALKINS TO SUBSAHARAN AFRICA TO IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, AND SEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE DO A LOT OF BAD THINGS.

AND, FRANKLY, THE RESIDENTS OF WASHINGTON, D.C. DISTRICT SEEMED A LOT LESS SCARY THAN A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE I'VE ENCOUNTERED IN MY LIFE.

AND WHEN YOU TALK TO PEOPLE, EVERYBODY HAS GOT A STORY.

I TRULY BELIEVE NOT A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE -- SOME, PROBABLY, BUT NOT A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SATISTS.

NOT MANY PEOPLE WAKE UP SAYING I WANT TO CAUSE PAIN AND SUFFERING FOR SOMEBODY.

AND THAT IS TRUE WHETHER THEY'RE COPS OR SOMEBODY WHO ENDS UP GOING OUT AND SHOOTING SOMEBODY AND KILLING THEP.

THEM.

EVERYBODY HAS THEIR STORY.

IT DOESN'T EXCUSE ABUSE BY THE POLICE OR VIOLENT CRIME.

BUT IF WE LET OURSELVES THINK THE DEHUMANIZING LANGUAGE, WHETHER IT IS THESE PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY ARE ANIMALS OR WHETHER THE POLICE ARE RACIST PIGS, ON EITHER SIDE IF WE START DEHUMANIZING PEOPLE, NUMBER ONE, WE'RE NOT LIKELY TO CHANGE THEM.

THEY'VE JUST GET DEFENSIVE.

BUT, NUMBER TWO, IT BLINDS US TO THE COMPLEXITY THAT WE DO NEED TO UNDERSTAND IF WE DO WANT THE SAME THING.

>> Braude: YOU MEANT TO MAKE THE EXCEPTION THAT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS FALL INTO THAT CATEGORY, NOBODY STARTS THE DAY SAYING... [LAUGHTER] >> Braude: I TOLD YOU THE STORY THAT WHEN I READ YOUR BOOK THAT STAYED WITH ME, FOR SOMEBODY LIKE ME WHO DOESN'T SEE MANY THINGS IN SHADES OF GRAY, I DON'T SEE POLICE IN NUANCED TERMS LIKE YOU DO BRILLIANTLY THROUGHOUT THIS WORK, TELL THE STORY OF THE SHOPLIFTER YOU AND YOUR TONIGHT CONFRONTED.

>> OH, GOSH, THIS IS ONE OF MY KIND OF MOST PAINFUL MEMORIES.

WE WERE PATROLLING, WE WERE IN OUR CAR IN A STRIP MALL PARKING LOT.

WE SAW THERE WAS SOME KIND OF VIOLENT SCUFF FELL SCUFFLE IN THE PARKING LOT BETWEEN A SECURITY GUARD AND SOMEONE ELSE.

WE JUMPED OUT OF THE POLICE CAR AND RACED OVER.

IT TURNED OUT IT WAS A VERY TINY WOMAN.

AND SHE HAD SHOPLIFTED FROM THE SUPERMARKET IN THE STRIP MALL.

AND SHE HAD A WHEELY SUITCASE CONTAINING THE ITEM SHE HAD STOLEN.

IT WAS A BOX OF LAUNDRY DETERGENT AND A PACK OF CHICKEN THIGHS.

SHE SAID, I'M SORRY, I'M SORRY, BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY FOOD.

I LOOKED AT MY PARTNER AND THE SECURITY GUARD, AND WE ALL ESSENTIALLY SAID, SHE DOES NOT NEED TO BE ARRESTED FOR THIS.

THIS SAD WOMAN IS STEALING FOOD.

LET'S SEE IF WE CAN GET THROUGH THIS WITHOUT AN ARREST.

BUT THEN MY PARTNER RAN A WARRANT CHECK, WHICH IS ROUTINE PROCEDURE IF YOU'RE ENCOUNTERING SOMEBODY IN A SITUATION, AND HE FOUND THAT SHE HAD AN OUTSTANDING WARRANT.

IT WAS ACTUALLY A WARRANT FOR FAILURE TO APPEAR, WHICH PRETTY MUCH MEANS SHE PROBABLY HAD SOME SIMILARLY MINOR OFFENSE AND HAD NOT SHOWN UP AT A COURT HEARING, WHICH RESULTED IN THIS FAILURE TO APPEAR.

BUT IT MEANT WE HAD TO ARREST HER.

WE COULDN'T JUST SAY, DON'T DO IT AGAIN.

HERE IS 20 BUCKS AND HERE IS THE PHONE NUMBER FOR A FOOD BANK.

WE HAD TO ARREST HER.

AND IT WAS JUST ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS WHERE I THOUGHT, WHY AM I DOING THIS?

WHY AM I DOING THIS?

EVEN IF IF YOU'RE TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING, SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE RACISM IS BAKED SO DEEPLY IN THE SYSTEM, THE CRUELTY IS BAKED SO DEEPLY INTO THE SYSTEM, AND ARRESTING THIS WOMAN IS NOT GOING TO MAKE ANYBODY'S LIFE BETTER.

IT IS GOING TO MAKE HER LIFE AND HER FAMILY'S LIFE WORSE.

THE SECURITY GUARDS AT THE STORE DID NOT WANT TO DO IT, AND WE ALL FELT A LITTLE TRAPPED, AND SHE IS THE ONE WHO WENT TO JAIL.

>> Braude: ROSA, I ONLY HAVE A COUPLE SECONDS LEFT.

TELL US ABOUT "POLICE FOR TOMORROW."

>> THE FELLOWSHIP PROGRAM BETWEEN GEORGETOWN AND THE D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT, IT TAKES YOUNG POLICE OFFICERS AND WE BRING THEM OVER TO GEORGETOWN AND WE HAVE THESE REALLY INTENSE WORKSHOPS ON WHAT I THINK ARE THE HARD ISSUES IN POLICING, RACE AND POLICING, AND POLICE AND VIOLENCE.

WE GET THESE AMAZING YOUNG OFFICERS WHO REALLY WANT TO BE PART OF TRANSFORMING POLICING FROM WITHIN.

IT HAS BEEN REALLY EXCITING TO SEE THAT.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT MAKES ME OPTIMISTIC THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET THE NEXT GENERATION OF POLICE LEADERS MAYBE THINKING MUCH MORE CREATIVELY AND DIFFERENTLY ABOUT POLICING THAN THE GENERATIONS THAT HAVE GONE BEFORE THEM.

>> Braude: I'D LIKE TO THINK I'M THINKING MORE CREATIVELY ABOUT IT AS A RESULT OF YOUR BOOK.

I LEARNED A LOT.

THANKS SO MUCH, ROSA.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: THE BOOK, AGAIN, IS "TANGLED UP IN BLUE: POLICING THE AMERICAN CITY."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT DO COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "BEAT THE PRESS" WITH EMILY ROONEY.

AND JUST MINUTES AWAY, THE LATEST EDITION OF "STATE OF THE RACE," A GBH SPECIAL PRESENTATION IN CONJUNCTION WITH "THE BOSTON GLOBE" AND NAACP BOSTON.

HEAD TO wgbh.org/thestateofrace FOR A VIRTUAL DISCUSSION ON "THE ROAD AHEAD," LOOKING AT WHERE THE COUNTRY STANDS AND WHEN IT'S HEADED IN THE FIGHT FOR RACIAL JUSTICE.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org